New Schemes to Violate the Social Contract

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman Podcast.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

We're in chambers this week to clear the docket.

With me, as always, the all-wise and all-powerful Judge John Hodgman.

Opening my third eye in the middle of my tongue now and allowing it to see into your souls.

I am your Judge John Hodgman here to judge you with my eye tongue.

Also, by the way, speaking of eyes,

all eyes, well, not all, but some eyes were on us.

Here's a little time warp for those of you who saw me and Jesse both on the Periscope right before we recorded this one.

That was a lot of fun.

Yeah,

I had fun with John taunting me on my own periscope.

I wasn't taunting you.

I just thought it would be fun to do the podcast that way, with you talking and me commenting.

Well, let's clear the docket, John, because that's what we're here to do.

We can start with a letter from AJ.

A few weeks ago, I used a profane word at a local dive bar after 10 p.m.

A man with two children under the age of 10 came over to our table and told us to clean up our language.

I believe that if a parent or guardian brings children to a bar, any adult language they overhear is fair game.

My friend sided with the man and felt that he had the right to ask us to be more conscious of our language.

Was the responsibility on me to survey my surroundings more carefully?

Well, I have two stories that might illuminate my point of view on that.

One is a story in which I, John Hodgman, was having lunch at the local diner here in Brooklyn while being visited by our mutual friend, Mr.

Paul F.

Tompkins, the very famous and excellent comedian.

It was the middle of a Sunday.

Well, it wasn't even a Sunday.

It was the middle of a weekday.

We were not alone in the diner.

And Paul and I were talking back and forth a little bit.

Now, we're both gentlemen.

Paul is a very dapper fellow.

And we speak good and tend to present as dudes who would not curse a whole lot.

We don't curse on this podcast, for example.

But we're also grown-ups.

And at one point,

Paul says a couple of F-words,

perfectly in the context of a conversation.

We were talking about hugging and kissing.

Right.

And a gentleman turns around at the next booth and he said,

could you please watch your language?

Because he was sitting there with his kids.

And boy, were Paul and I completely and totally embarrassed.

And we apologized.

Story two.

Flash forward to very, very fun day, Chicago, 2017.

Jesse Thorne could not attend to be my friend and bailiff because he had some baby or something.

Yeah, roughly speaking.

The great Gene Gray came to be the guest bailiff, and Gene Gray and I did our sound check.

And we went to sit at the bar in the restaurant of the very, very fun day compound at Thalia Hall in Chicago.

And we were having some scrambled eggs.

And we discovered Dan McCoy sitting next to us at this bar, talking to a gentleman whose name I regret that I cannot remember.

We'll call him Kurt.

And just call him Stuart Wellington.

No, it wasn't a flopsy.

It was a different person whom I quickly realized was just a fan, a fan of the flopsies.

And after a while, Dan decided to leave.

And Kurt sidled up next to me and Gene, his second and third best maximum fun friends, I guess.

Gene and I were having a conversation.

And I'll tell you what this conversation was about.

It was about a certain set of dark crystal trading cards that I had found at a flea market that I had given to someone else, and Jean was really mad at me that I had not thought to give her these dark crystal trading cards, because she is a big fan of the dark crystal, which I did not know.

And I said, holy heck, Jean, I didn't realize that.

And she said, curse yeah, I am a huge fan of the dark crystal.

And I said, well, poop me.

I really pooping apologize.

Because we're grown-ups.

Those are not the words that I said.

I said other words.

And Kurt, sitting next to me, a lovely young man, said under his breath, This is certainly a different side of Judge John Hodgman than I've ever seen before.

And I could not have been happier.

To let Kurt know that I sometimes say strong language because I'm a grown-up sitting at a bar.

What are the differences between these two situations?

They were both during the daytime, true.

In one case, I was at a diner.

In the other case, I was at a bar.

Bars are meant for cussing in and also for having swingy doors at the door.

And

also for shooting at the piano player's feet.

No.

What do you do?

Well, you do something or another.

I bring my hatchet there and bust up the ale barrels.

Yeah, that's why they call you Jesse Hatchet.

Yep.

There's some stuff that goes down in a bar that is not for children.

For example, the serving of of alcohol.

That's usually...

Now look, I live in Park Slope.

You think people aren't bringing their kids into bars around Park Slope?

Of course they are.

The kids just tell their parents, I want to go in there, and the parents go, yes, master.

But the context of a bar is by its definition a

refuge for adult people.

Now, if someone had come up to me during very, very fun day and said, pardon me, Gene Gray and John Hodgman, Hodgman, I notice you're having a little malort with your scrambled eggs, and perhaps you have lost your mind, and you are swearing in front of my 10-year-old.

I would have said, you know what?

You're absolutely right because this is the middle of the day.

That does make a difference, doesn't it?

But in this case, AJ was in that bar after 10 p.m.

at night.

That guy should not have had his children in a bar after 10 p.m.

at night.

So I say, friend that guy.

No way.

Take your kids home.

Don't go to bars with your under 10-year-old kids after 10 p.m.

That's the 10 and 10 rule.

A classic 10 and 10.

So

those are my narratives.

Is this a normal thing for children to be in bars?

I've only been in a bar as an adult and as a baby when my father was an alcoholic.

Those are the only two times I've ever been in a bar.

He's been in recovery for a very long time

since I was a toddler.

So I'm grateful he's a recovering alcoholic.

But I feel like you can't get into a bar if you're a child, right?

I've had trouble getting performers who are under 21 into bars to perform.

Yeah, I would say that there is a little bleed through here in Brooklyn.

During the daytime, a lot of bars will serve a brunch.

And young parents who are desperate to prove that they're still cool will bring their kids into this bar and have a drink.

along with their eggs, just like me and Gene Gray did, except I had abandoned my children,

left them behind behind in New York.

I was in Chicago.

But at nighttime, no, no way.

I don't know what bar would let kids in.

So AJ, you're absolutely right, and your friend is absolutely wrong.

Let the bar be the refuge of grown-ups, everybody.

I thought it was poignant that he mentioned that it was after 10 p.m.

It suggested to me that at some point he had taken a course designed to allow him to legally operate a broadcast radio station because he knew exactly when safe harbor hours begin.

And for those of you who are wondering, I did manage to find another pack of dark crystal cards that I did give to Gene Gray.

So all, we are now friending friends again.

Thank goodness.

Here's something from Becky.

My husband wants to wear his sweatpants to work, which I think.

May I rule now?

May I rule now?

Which I think should never be acceptable.

He works in an office.

He claims it's very casual.

I still think sweatpants are an indoor-only clothing item.

The situation worsened when I got him bedroom slippers for Christmas, which he thinks he can wear out because they have a rubber sole.

He usually takes pride in himself for being a stylish person, so I don't know why he wants to wear sweatpants and slippers to work.

Well, I think she can probably figure out why he wants to wear sweatpants and slippers to work.

He wants to signal to the world that he's given up.

Well, maybe he works in a company that manufactures naps.

You don't know.

What's interesting is that he takes pride in himself for being a stylish person, or so Becky claims, yet he's still doing this.

If he takes any pride in his appearance whatsoever, he's not going to wear sweatpants out.

I mean, this is a given, right?

This is a joke.

She can't be serious.

Judge Hodgman, I have to put on my professional menswear expert hat here for a moment, if you don't mind.

I hope you will.

And I trust that

it is a sharp and tailored hat and not one of those elastic waistband hats.

Exactly.

I have to say, there has been,

sort of parallel with the trend towards what are called jogger pants,

there has been a propensity to wear sweatpants outside.

There are pants that have a slimmer, more

I don't want to say tailored look because they're not tailored, but

they look more like a choice than like a white flag.

Yes.

Or a Heather Gray flag, as the case may be.

And I understand wearing those out of the house while I do not condone it.

So in other words, I think that the fashion times have moved beyond the George Costanza era.

However,

work is a, I mean, like,

maybe

if he's wearing like really specific ones and he's like a junior copywriter at an ad agency where everyone dresses crazy.

Yes.

I agree with you that fashions do shift and change.

And I remember, I don't know if you know this, Jesse, but I had a brief, a brief professional experience working with an advertising agency.

Yeah, sure.

You worked

as an advertising spokesman.

I was a personal computer for a period of time.

And we mostly filmed in L.A.

and

the advertising agency was and is in L.A.

and already in L.A., your standards of what outdoor wear,

what appropriate outdoor wear consists of is very different than New York, in part because it's so beautiful and sunny all the time.

It's called the California casual look.

Yeah, it's basically like if you get invited to a formal dinner, you're lucky if your host is wearing tube socks and nothing else.

Like, that would be an okay look for dinner.

There have have been ambassadorial events that have featured Jorts in Los Angeles.

There you go.

There you go.

That's white tie in L.A.

And particularly in advertising, those guys were pushing a lot of boundaries in terms of professional wear.

And it seemed like all these 35 to 55-year-old men had to dress like

skate rats from the 80s.

Yeah.

If that's what's going on in your husband's world,

then I could say, well, you know what?

Jesse has identified certain new athletic gear that is a little bit more acceptable outside of the gym or what have you.

I get that.

I'm not totally stuffy.

You know about athleisure.

Yeah, but what gave that away was now he wants to wear slippers.

Yeah.

That's what they call in poker a tell.

Yeah.

Yeah.

He's just going all loosey-goosey.

In any case,

It's not necessarily what is acceptable contextual to one's office.

It is what what is acceptable to you as a person.

And I don't want to bog this all down in narratives, although I'm America's favorite storyteller.

But I went out to dinner with my wife and our friends Jonathan Colton and his wife Christine,

the four of us, to Keene's Steakhouse, formerly known as Keene's Chop House, one of my favorite restaurants in Manhattan.

It is an old school

steakhouse with pipes on the old pipes on the wall, because it used to be a pipe-smoking club.

And we would routinely get a little dressed up to go out to dinner, put on some shoes, jacket and tie.

It was a nice opportunity to dress formally, even though

about 50% of the guys in there

were wearing shorts and untuckets every time you went in there.

It was terrible, all these bros.

Like, guys would go in there and he would eat dinner in the dining room with a backward baseball cap on.

But I wouldn't stoop to that.

But then, this last time we went,

I was starting to feel, you know, I got a little older because time is passing.

And because of my stress eating after the election, and because of my heel spurs that I developed out of nowhere, probably because I'm going insane and getting older.

I still didn't feel like going to dinner wearing a hard shoe.

And I didn't really want to test if any of my jackets still fit around my big old fat belly.

So I decided I was going to wear a nice shirt, nice pants, and some very clean, brand new salkony jazz sneakers.

And I was not going to apologize for it because I knew that most of those guys in there don't care at all about the dress code.

And I went in there, and you know what?

I looked good, especially since right across from me was a guy eating his $5,000 steak or whatever, wearing a hockey jersey.

But one thing I didn't do, one place where I held the line.

Wait, hold on, Judge Hodgman.

Spill the beans.

Was it Kevin Smith or early Snoop Dogg?

It was just a New York Rangers fan having a little pre-theater dinner.

Was it Mark Messier, but he was upset that no one recognized him?

I don't think that he was an actual hockey player.

I don't remember the name of what jersey he was wearing.

All I knew it was not a Hartford Whalers jersey.

So I turned aside in disgust.

But one thing I did not wear and would not ever wear, even though I went really super cash for this evening dinner, and I kind of obviously have mixed feelings about it, I did not wear an elastic waistband pant.

This is where I think the line must be drawn.

If you are going outside in the world, you need to know your pant size and own it.

That's called being a grown-up, not being an infant, not giving up.

Hang in there.

Whew!

Some big stories, you guys, big narratives.

Regular Steven Tobolowski over in here.

Now that we've had our steak dinner, let's take a quick break before we come back for dessert.

We'll be back with more on the Judge John Hodgman podcast in just a second.

Hello, I'm your Judge John Hodgman.

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The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by Made In.

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Let them know Jesse and John sent you.

Welcome back to the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

We're clearing the docket.

Here's something from Eddie.

My girlfriend Katie and I go out to eat together often.

We've come to a disagreement as to when we should order our entrees.

I believe you should order the entree after the appetizer arrives.

That way, we don't have the appetizer and main meal back-to-back.

Katie believes that we should be able to order them at the same time, especially if we already know what we're getting.

If I win the case, I would like to order the appetizer my way.

If not, we'll order it her way.

So he says, this way we don't have to eat the appetizer and main meal back to back?

I mean, that is what happens.

That's you have the appetizer and then you have the main meal.

You know what he's probably doing?

You know about the Taco Bell fourth meal?

He's probably putting that in between the appetizer and the main.

So when he orders the appetizer, he also orders a chalupa.

He says, bring the appetizer first, then the chalupa, and when the chalupa comes out, we'll order the mains, and those can come out after the chalupa.

He's like a hobbit.

He has appetizers, then second appetizers, then 11ses, and then entree.

Exactly.

Some Tolkien heads know what I'm talking about.

He wants a break.

He wants to order the appetizer, then have the waiter or service person come back and then take his order for entree and then wait and chew the figurative fat at that point with his girlfriend, Katie.

Do I understand that correctly?

That seems to be the case, yeah.

I mean, he's got a scheme.

There's no doubt about that.

Well, that's unusual, isn't it, for a guy to write into Judge John Hodgman who's got a scheme for a new and better way of doing things.

Finally.

What do you think, Jesse?

I think that if you're eating at any decent restaurant, they will bring you your appetizer.

I don't eat.

The whole, okay.

Yeah.

The restaurant needs you to either be eating something you're paying for or leaving so that they can put someone else at your table.

That's how restaurants run as a business.

So they're glad to bring you course after course of wine or whatever or bring you dessert after dinner, because those are things that they're selling you.

And when you pay the price for the food, you're also paying for the place that you sit.

You're renting space at the table.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Well, yeah, but just to be Eddie for a moment, why should I let you rush me along for my meal?

I'm paying for the meal.

I should take as long as I want.

Social convention.

We've all agreed that this is how it works.

Yeah, but my name's Eddie.

And I want it different.

I think we're finding out what would happen

if I was the judge in 60% of Judge John Hodgman cases.

I would have a full emotional breakdown five minutes in where I just yell, social convention, because that's how we do it.

We all agreed to make it easier for us.

Yes, but there are many social conventions that need to be challenged, Jesse.

Here's the truth.

Eddie, stop it.

Judgment is this.

If the server in a restaurant says to you,

Would you guys like to order some appetizers while you think about your main course,

go for it.

Yep.

That happens.

It happens.

And that's the signal to you that the restaurant is cool with it.

And it might be part of the way that they have built their business.

Maybe they're upselling you.

Maybe they're getting you to order a second appetizer.

That's the legendary second appetizer of Middle-earth.

Maybe they think if you order some nachos right off the top, you'll come back and then order Escargot.

And then your beef bourguignon.

It's a weird restaurant that I've described.

And then

your loaded tater tots.

And then your Korean fried chicken.

Man, this restaurant sounded real good right now.

I think it's called Tal Day, and it's on the corner of 7th Avenue and 12th Street in Park Slope.

I'll see you there.

And, you know, that's a place where they, where it's like, order everything all at once, and we'll bring it out to you when it comes out of the kitchen.

Every restaurant has things organized a little bit different.

But the default that you should presume is that if you're in a place that offers coarsed service, that is to say, you order maybe a cocktail or a drink, then you order your appetizer and your entree together and they are paced out to you, that's because the kitchen has figured out

how it works best for them and most efficiently.

And if it's a good restaurant, you won't feel rushed.

You'll have your appetizer.

You'll have a little time to say hi to your girlfriend Katie quietly, maybe order another drink, and then that entree will come out in a well-timed fashion that will work for you and for the restaurant.

And if you refuse to order your entree until after your appetizer is served, you're slowing it down.

And maybe you figure you're buying yourself some time at the table, but what you're really doing is inconveniencing, A, the restaurant, which you don't care about because you're like, oh, I'm paying them money anyway.

But you're inconveniencing another diner who has also presumably made a reservation that you're you're not giving up that table for.

And what if you were that diner?

Because Alternate Universe Eddie and Alternate Universe Katie were really dilly-dallying over there because Alternate Universe Eddie had his own idea, which was that he wasn't going to order his entree until a full hour had passed after his appetizer because he has digestive issues.

You know, I was at a restaurant recently, very fancy restaurant.

I was invited to go there.

by the great former Daily Show writer Rich Blondquist and great former daily show writer Sam Means, and Rich's incredibly super duper

better half, Kristen Schall, the actress and former Daily Show correspondent.

We had a little reunion at a very fancy restaurant.

Sam Means

reminded me

of the categorical imperative.

Immanuel Kant,

the philosopher, the categorical imperative had two parts.

I don't remember what categorical imperative part one was.

Part two was basically, imagine if everyone did what you're talking about.

Something that might seem moral for you in an instant.

If it were applied universally, how would that work out?

Terribly, as in this case, then don't do it.

It's called Categorical Imperative Part II, one of the rare sequels to be better than the original.

Definitely more memorable.

You're wrong, Eddie.

Sound of gabble.

Here's something from Ben.

My girlfriend Renata and I regularly find ourselves in social situations where one or both of us want to leave, but neither of us feel like we should be the instigator.

I think it should be her because she always drives.

She feels that it should be left up to the person closest to the event.

For example, if we're meeting my family for dinner, I should be the one to send the signal.

I would like an order for Renata to be responsible for signaling our departure from all events.

I have a message for Ben.

Grow up.

Ha!

Grow up, Ben.

Stop being shy.

Learn to drive.

Start taking responsibility for your own desires.

You are ready to leave an event.

It's not easy.

It's not easy to be bold enough to say, it's time for me to go.

Well, I'm sorry, we've got to get going.

Especially if you're shy, as clearly Ben is, and wants to have his girlfriend run all the interference with him, even with his own family.

That's terrible.

That's a terrible thing to ask of Renata, Ben.

If you're at to dinner with your own family and Renata goes, well, it's time for us to leave, Guess what your family is going to talk about this minute you guys leave the table?

How Renata is such a weird, controlling person, and that Ben obviously wanted to stay.

When the truth is, Ben, you hate your family and wanted to leave immediately.

That's my conjecture.

I'm not sure that you hate your family, but you know what I'm saying.

Seems likely.

Yeah.

If you want to go, say something.

Own the truth of your own feelings and don't feel like you can't say them.

And certainly within the context of your own family.

If you are the closest person to the host, not physically, but

socially and emotionally,

then no one leaves until you say so.

That's just the way it goes.

Renata always drives.

Learn to drive.

Learn to drive manual, Ben.

Enough already.

Do you disagree with me, Jesse?

No, and I think that they...

I think even the person closest rule...

Like, this is all like this weird,

just, if you think it's time to go, just say so and your partner should be close enough with you that they value your feelings in the situation enough that they back you up immediately you should never be in the situation where one of you says listen I think it's about time for us to go and the other one says I disagree

well I mean there may be times when

there's something going on and the other person says I think we need to stay a little bit longer but I hear you yeah I mean they could have a signal that's when in situations where they want to check in about it rather than just proclaim it.

You know, they could have a classic swipe across the chest for take

and, you know, grab the bill of the cap for swing away.

But like, that doesn't, in a situation where one of them wants to leave,

They should feel comfortable enough to politely excuse themselves from a social event and the other one should be supportive of them.

And yes, they should both know how to drive just in case one of them wants to stay somewhere that the other one wants to leave.

Well, that's another, I mean, maybe Ben knows how to drive, but the fact that Renata always drives, that is a red flag in this relationship.

If only there were telephone numbers you could call that brought a car to where you were that was willing to drive you, for a price, mind you, to the place that you would like to be.

Right.

Here's the, this is the red flag, right?

She always drives, and he wants her to always instigate leaving, even when it's his own family.

Dudes are tempted to marry their mommies.

This is a universal temptation, I think.

Men, like women, are attracted to all different types of people at different contexts of their lives, but there is a certain type of dude, and I'm not saying it's you, Ben,

but you're checking off all the boxes.

who likes to marry or get into a relationship with a woman who's going to drive him around and take all the responsibility and be the grown-up and tell his own real mommy and daddy, it's time for us to leave so that he doesn't have to do any of that hard stuff.

No one has a good time being in a relationship with their mom or dad or their surrogate mom or dad, as it were.

So, Ben, if you're hearing me, if Renata is your mommy, stop that.

That's no good for you.

That's no good for Renata.

You don't want Renata at that family dinner, when you go out to that restaurant, to be the one saying, sorry, everybody, I'm shutting this down.

You don't want to make Renata the Yoko Ono of your family?

It's terrible.

This is the sound of a gabble.

Grow up, Ben.

That said, if Renata is willing to cover all the walls in a small German town with pictures of butts, that should be supported.

Yeah.

That's sort of the good part of her being the Yoko Ono of your family.

Yeah, and I'm sorry.

You know what?

Good point, Jesse.

Yoko Ono is an amazing artist.

and an astonishing individual whose name should not be associated with the slander that was put on her by a bunch of dudes who were mad that the Beatles broke up because they couldn't hack it anymore, being around each other all the time.

Because people grow up, especially in intense situations, they have to get away from each other from time to time.

So I apologize to Yoko Ono,

but I've not apologized to Ben.

We'll be back with a letter about virtual reality and the Renaissance Fair when we continue our self-parody in just a minute.

You know, we've been doing My Brother, My Brother, me for 15 years.

And

maybe you stopped listening for a while.

Maybe you never listened.

And you're probably assuming three white guys talking for 15 years, I know where this has ended up.

But no.

Nope, you would be wrong.

We're as shocked as you are that we have not fallen into some sort of horrific scandal or just turned into a big crypto thing.

Yeah, you don't even really know how crypto works.

The only NFTs I'm into are naughty, funny things, which is what we talk about on my brother, my brother, and me.

We serve it up every Monday for you if you're listening.

And if not, we just leave it out back and goes rotten.

So check it out on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts.

All right, we're over 70 episodes into our show.

Let's learn everything.

So let's do a quick progress check.

Have we learned about quantum physics?

Yes, episode 59.

We haven't learned about the history of gossip yet, have we?

Yes, we have.

Same episode, actually.

Have we talked to Tom Scott about his love of roller coasters?

Episode 64.

So how close are we to learning everything?

Bad news.

We still haven't learned everything yet.

Oh, we're ruined.

No, no, no.

It's good news as well.

There is still a lot to learn.

Woo!

I'm Dr.

Ella Hubber.

I'm regular Tom Long.

I'm Caroline Roper, and on Let's Learn Everything, we learn about science and a bit of everything else too.

And although we haven't learned everything yet, I've got a pretty good feeling about this next episode.

Join us every other Thursday Thursday on Maximum Fun.

Welcome back to the Judge John Hodgman Podcast.

This week, we're clearing the docket.

We've got a dispute from Brandon about movie theater trash.

Uh-huh.

He wants to know the following: how responsible is a moviegoer for cleanup after the movie ends?

Some of my colleagues believe that the theater should be treated like a sports stadium, where it's regular practice for food garbage to be left on the floor.

Others contend it's basic etiquette to clean up after yourselves at the theater.

Also, some in the office say you should only clean up garbage if it's from food you snuck into the theater.

Does the practice vary based on the food source?

We await your judgment.

Whoa.

What a broy office.

They're just hanging out in their jogger pants trying to hash some stuff out.

Yeah, coming up with some new schemes to violate the social contract.

Well, actually,

the only food you should clean up is the food you sneak in.

I don't know why I made that bro sound like a tired vampire.

Apologize, bro.

Yeah, all these guys are going to sports stadiums and movies together all the time and then coming up with new schemes to violate the social contract.

Jesse Thorne, I have to ask you a question.

You made a sports reference right before the break when we were talking about Renata and Ben, about signaling

take or swing away yeah and I for I truly was totally confused about what you were talking about that's how catchers signal to pitchers in baseball close that would be how a third base coach would signal to the hitter whether he whether or not he should swing on the next pitch got it okay but I truly was lost and

and in the spirit of Judge John Hodgman I am I am not going to ask you to not make such esoteric or not even esoteric but regular sports references.

I'm going to better myself to learn those things.

That's on me.

You understand?

To be fair, I immediately regretted referring to former New York Rangers legend, or current New York Rangers legend, Marc Messier, and you managed to either catch or at least paper over the fact that you'd missed that one.

Well, I had to do a lot of hard work in that moment, not to not to know who Marc Messier was, because I knew who it was,

but I had to almost physically restrain myself from making some kind of messier, messier pun about the way that guy was dressed.

I backdoored it right there.

Got it in there.

It's part of my gradual werewolf-like transformation into a weird dad, exactly the worst kind of guy I don't ever want to be.

That joke was written on your heart, and you had to read it.

But as someone who appreciates sports, you, Jesse, do you have a comment about this

stipulation

that in sports stadiums, it is regular practice for food garbage to just be left on the floor?

Yes, that's absolutely true.

Yeah, that's absolutely true.

Because there's no garbage can.

You would have to go on a hike to find the garbage can to throw something away.

But why don't you just take your garbage with you as you leave the event?

Like, there's no garbage can next to you in a movie theater either.

You just take your stuff with you after you've done the movie.

In the movie theater on your way out there's a garbage can right there that's specifically for this purpose.

And there is no such thing in sports stadia?

No, I don't know where there's a garbage can in a sports stadium.

I mean I guess there must be garbage cans in sports stadiums, but I don't know where they are.

All right.

They're not at the top of the stairs.

Like if there was a garbage can at the top of the stairs that said for your food garbage, like there is in a movie theater,

you know, when you, you know how these days usually the movie theater's entrance kind of points directly at the screen, but then there's seats directly in front of you and like a wall, and so you have to go around the side?

So right there at that point, right in the middle, just where the outside door meets the inside of the theater,

there is usually a bank of trash cans that are there for you to put your stuff in while you're walking out the door.

Yeah, yeah.

So, first of all, with regard to your weird sports subculture,

put some garbage cans out, sports stadia.

Come on.

But as far as movies go, I think that there was definitely a convention when I was growing up in Brookline and Boston that you would leave your old popcorn things on the floor, you know, your half-empty tubs or whatever.

And one day I look down at the floor and I'm like, what am I doing?

Another human being has to stoop down and get that.

And that was the birth.

of the Judge John Hodgman

motto, one of many, be mindful of the work that you leave for others.

Which is a nicer way of saying,

Brandon and your bros,

don't make other people pick up your garbage, creeps.

Clean it up.

I don't know about what's going on in that sports stadia, but if you're in a movie theater,

I think it is gross to leave behind trash for another human being.

That is basically saying that another human being is trash.

And you know what?

I bet all those bros were talking about, well, if you sneak it in, then that's not part of the arrangement that you have with the theater because that's not garbage that they produced initially.

And just stop it.

You know that it's wrong.

You know that it's wrong to make someone else pick up your trash.

Don't make up an excuse.

Just pick up your trash and throw it away.

It is so easy to do.

Oh, but they're paid to do that, so I don't see why it's my job.

And I'm paying such a premium on the popcorn and the soda fountain, fountain drink.

Stop it.

Stop it.

Stop making up excuses for being a creep.

Don't be a creep.

Try that.

You'll feel better.

No system of contingencies and weird rules that you come up with to excuse creepy behavior will make you feel as good as simply not being a creep.

Do you disagree with me, Jesse, about this in the movie theater stuff?

I'm standing and applauding right now.

Oh, thank you very much.

The only reason you can't hear it is my hands aren't miced.

We had to stop micing Jesse's hands because they're so powerful.

And every now and then, his retractable claws would come out and they would go snicked.

So we had to take the mics off.

Did you know that Jesse Thorne is a Wolverine?

Oh, by the way, that's the sound of a gavel.

What else do we got?

Well, we have a follow-up letter about virtual reality, episode 303, Oculus Miffed.

You remember that one?

That was a good one.

Matt and Amber.

Matt wanted to build a holodeck-style virtual reality room

in the main bedroom of his apartment that he shares with Amber.

They already have VR,

but he wanted to take all the beds and furniture and bureaus and dressers and mirrors out of that room, paint it black, and put red lines on it like the holodeck from Star Trek the Next Generation and make it a devoted VR room because it was the biggest room in the house.

And I said he should absolutely do that, but do it in the basement because that's bigger and he could get over his fear of centipedes as well.

So, what does this letter have to say?

Well, the first one is from Alex, who says that

he or she

went to the Renaissance Fair in the 1990s and says the best moment by far was when a group of 10 or 12 humanoids and one Klingon, all in nicely tailored, authentic-looking Star Trek uniforms, arrived and gazed about in awe.

They were clearly pretending to be on the holodeck, visiting a faux VR version of King Arthur's court.

In real life, it was truly a thing of beauty.

Oh, LARPing within LARPing.

This is something I've heard of but never seen, and it is

truly awe-inspiring.

You've heard of this happening?

Yeah, you've never heard of people pretending to be going to visit the Renaissance Fair from the holodeck?

I've definitely heard of that.

Maybe I don't listen enough to The Greatest Generation, a popular popular podcast about Star Trek the Next Generation.

Or you don't listen enough to my AP U.S.

history teacher, Miss Ledterer.

So

it goes back that far?

All the way to Lederer.

People have been dressing up like Star Trek the Next Generation characters and then going to Ren Fairs and then pretending that they are Star Trek people in the holodeck going to a old-timey?

Since at least 1998, my junior year of high school.

I feel truly,

truly out of touch.

That's such a thing of beauty.

The only problem with those nerds is

that,

first of all, they should be Klingons and Star Trek characters in period costume because the holodeck would have changed their costumes to be period-appropriate.

They wouldn't be walking around in Star Trek uniforms.

Oh, that's true.

When Captain McCard went in as Dixon Hill,

hard-boiled private eye, he was wearing a trench coat and a Humphrey Bogart hat.

He wasn't wearing a red pantsuit.

But the other problem with it is that Ren fairs are notoriously historically inaccurate.

So the whole storyline would have to be the Star Trek characters walking around going, What has gone wrong with the holodeck?

Or possibly that they all got into the holodeck and then, you know, Wesley Crusher or whatever was like,

Take me to a Renaissance fair, 1997.

I won't rest, and I know it exists, until I see a picture of Will Wheaton, who played Wesley Crusher

in a Star Trek uniform at a Renaissance Fair.

The first person

who can get me a photo, and Will, if you're listening, I'll accept it from you as well.

I'm going to send you all nine of the Judge John Hodgman t-shirt subscription t-shirts, even backdated.

with a note of thanks from me.

Wesley Crusher played by Will Wheaton in Star Trek uniform at a Renaissance fair.

And if you send me only a picture of Will Wheaton at a Renaissance fair, I'll send you a nickel because I bet there are a million of those photos.

I love you, Will.

Here's something from Kelly.

You may remember that one of the reasons Matt didn't want to build that VR room in the basement was because he was terrified of centipedes.

Yes.

Kelly's very specifically video game-y phobia, I have to say.

Well, it's not like he said he was afraid of Q-berts.

There's got to be someone who's afraid of Q-bert.

Did you know that I did not, I have never played the game Q-bert, which was just before my time.

Because of all the bad language, to bring it back to the first case today.

But my father, after my parents divorced, my father dated a woman named Susan, and I inherited a lot of Susan's son's stuff.

And Susan's son was maybe six or seven years older than I was.

So he had Star Wars toys.

So I played with Star Wars toys despite it being,

you know, four years after, three or four years after Return of the Jedi.

Right.

And one of the things that I inherited from Susan's son was Qbert the board game.

If that thing was not a three-dimensional

series of staircase cubes, then throw it in the fire.

Purely two-dimensional.

Oh boy, oh boy.

Anyway, Kelly says the one.

That's my Qbert swear sound.

The one and only time Kelly says that she's tried or he's tried VR was in the UW HIT lab's spider world

back in late 1996.

And Kelly suggests spider world exposure therapy for Matt.

So UW, I would imagine, is the University of Wisconsin.

Or the University of Washington.

Oh.

Okay.

Whatever university it is that in 1996 had a virtual reality rig coded Spider World.

I'm sure some mad science came out of that.

And in turn, I am sure that it can currently be run on a wristwatch.

So let's go ahead and plug that in.

So the first person who puts Spider World onto a wristwatch and then sends the wristwatch to Matt so that he can do his exposure therapy, you're A-OK.

It does seem that it was the University of Washington because she sent a link to an article about

this lab

from the Seattle Weekly.

And I regret that I had not read this

before jumping on the mic.

I didn't see it there.

That's on me.

I'm going to read it now.

And anyone who wants to read it, the link will be on the Judge John Hodgman show page at maximumfun.org.

As well as, as soon as we get one, any pictures of Will Wheaton eating a turkey leg outside of a mead hut at a Wren Fair.

Well, that's it for this week's Judge John Hodgman, the show produced by Jennifer Marmer.

Follow us on Twitter at Jesse Thorne at Hodgman.

Hashtag your Judge John Hodgman tweets, hashtag JJ Ho, and check out the Maximum Fund subreddit at maximumfund.reddit.com to talk about this episode.

You can submit your cases at maximumfund.org slash jjho.

That's maximumfund.org slash jjho, or just email us at hodgman at maximumfun.org.

It goes directly to me.

We'll see you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Bye.

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