In Flagrante Delicto

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman Podcast.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

This week, in Flag Grante De Licto, Sarah brings the case against her husband, Eric.

Eric likes wearing pants that are decorated to look like the American flag.

Sarah thinks he wears the pants at inappropriate times.

Who's right?

Who's wrong?

Only one man can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference.

I do not recognize the authority of a court that hangs the gold-fringed flag.

A flag with gilded edges is the flag of an admiralty court.

An admiralty court signifies a naval court-martial.

I cannot be court-martialed twice.

That is all.

Bailiff Jesse, swear them in.

Please rise.

Raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, or nothing but the truth?

So help you, God, or whatever?

Yes.

Yes.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that his only flag-based loyalty is to letting his freak flag fly?

I do.

Very well, Judge Hodgman.

Sarah and Eric, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment in one of yours favors.

Can either of you name the cultural reference vaguely associated with this case that I quoted as I entered this courtroom?

Eric, you are brought here with your flag pants against your will.

Therefore, you have the option to guess first

or to make Sarah guess first and hope that you glean some information from her guess.

What is your decision?

Everyone must guess.

Right.

Well, I hate to take the coward's way out here, but.

Oh, you are a listener to this podcast.

Yes.

So I think I'm going to have to pass and let Sarah give it a shot.

She knows a lot more stuff than I do.

Let me just make a mark here.

Yeah.

Just mark.

Do you know what that is?

It's a mark against you.

Oh, shoot.

Yeah.

Sarah, go ahead and guess.

I do not know what this is.

I'm going to guess that it is from the movie Planet of the Apes.

Planet of the Apes.

Which version?

The Orig?

The Tim Burton remake?

Or I guess those are the only ones that are called Planet of the Apes.

So it's which one of those?

Just so I can put it down in the guest book.

I'm going to go with the original version.

The original version.

Yes.

Yep.

Because apes have strong feelings about fringes on flags and legal proceedings.

Well-known fact, they also do not have tails.

Two things every school child knows about apes.

True enough.

All right, I've put that into the guess book without comment.

Eric, what is your guess?

Now it is time.

I am pretty much at a loss.

I'm going to say it's

something General Patton said angrily someday.

Something General Patton said angrily.

And before I evaluate these guesses, let me just say to future litigants on this podcast, you know I'm going to make you do this.

Come up with something.

I have to come up with something for every one of these cases.

You come up with something.

Don't get caught up short like flag pants.

Oh, boy.

All right.

All guesses are wrong, obviously.

Not surprising.

Yeah.

I am the giver of the law here.

That's a Planet of the Apes reference.

I'm secretly, a secret message to Dana Gould, basically.

And I say all guesses are wrong.

The answer is: I was quoting from the character Dale Gribble

in the television show King of the Hill.

Oh.

Yeah, but you're too young.

You don't know.

No, we know.

You know.

We're flattered that you think we're that young.

The dispute at hand is that Eric has a pair of pants patterned with the stylings of old glory.

That I do.

And Sarah, you think that he wears them too often?

Yes.

Is it not your complaint that he wears them at all?

Well, that would have

been my more truthful complaint, but I felt maybe I would have a stronger case to make if I just put some limitations on when he can wear them.

I like, you know what?

I like your politicking.

It was a strategic decision.

Yeah, I appreciate that.

So, what's your beef with his pants?

Where to begin?

I would say the nature of these pants is that they are extremely,

it's hard for me to find a neutral word to describe them.

They're very noticeable and provocative, I guess.

It's hard.

If Eric is wearing them, he is inviting some sort of reaction from everyone

whose eyes pass over them.

They're just so bright and noticeable.

Yeah, well,

they are patterned for the American flag, which is, of course, a very recognizable

series of stripes and stars.

Yes.

they're a flag.

A flag is designed to be seen from great distance

between ships.

So you know who's coming.

And when Eric walks down the street in his flag pants, your argument is dum-dum coming.

Well, I guess my,

it's sort of two things.

The fact that he's on purpose wearing a piece of clothing that is designed to provoke a reaction and everyone who sees them, I sort of object to on principle.

But I think I'm pretty sure that, I mean, I can't speak to what's in Eric's mind, but I'm pretty sure he thinks that these pants are very hilarious and amusing and that everyone who sees them finds them to be charming and cute.

And I am concerned that a lot of people who see them do not find them charming or cute and that some people might, in fact, find them

objectionable or even offensive.

Would such a person include you?

I am not per se offended by them, except to the extent that they represent us as a couple.

Okay.

Only insofar as that it attracts undue attention to you as his other half.

Yes.

Or perhaps that it suggests that you endorse them.

Yes.

That is a concern.

All right.

So obviously we we all want to see these pants.

Sarah has sent in evidence.

I'm going to take a look at it now.

If you want to see the evidence, you can go to maximumfund.org, the Judge John Hodgman page for this episode, and you can follow along.

but don't do this while you're driving.

But rather than I describe them, Eric, why don't you go ahead and describe the pants?

Tell me what I'm seeing here in this first picture of you and your flag pants.

Well, that depends on which picture you're looking at first, but there's one edible.

Looks like I'll be describing it after all.

It's you.

It's presumably you, because there's a skinny, handsome dude wearing some flag pants, American flag pants, and also a very highly patterned summertime shirt.

Right now, I can't decide whether this pattern matching, which is a rare skill, is genius or madness.

Judge Hodgman, as a fashion industry professional?

Yes, sir.

It's madness.

Indeed.

Well, I appreciate your testimony, Bailiff Jesse, and I will defer to your expertise in most things, but I reserve the right to judge madness when I see it.

You're at some sort of party.

You've got a little can of drink in your hand.

There's another fellow, another handsome young fella, wearing

another eye-grabbing summertime shirt, this one with a bunch of flowers on it.

And you have a beard and glasses, and you've got a look on your face like, oh, can you check it out?

I'm wearing flag pants.

Can you believe this?

That is the look he has the whole time he's wearing them every time.

Yeah.

That's his resting flag face?

Indeed.

Now you can describe the pants themselves.

Please paint a word picture for the audience as to where the stars are, where the stripes are, which way the the stripes are going,

and what the material is like and what you like about them.

Go.

Boy, okay, so a pure description of the pants.

They're

a

tight-ish fitting Chino made of Chino fabric, not of flag fabric.

And there are horizontal red and white stripes going up both legs.

And on the right leg at the top,

there are...

the blue background with white stars.

Eric, what part of your body is located at the top of your leg?

Particularly

on the back.

So that would be the right buttock, I believe, is the.

Yeah, that would be one of the star areas.

Yeah,

a prime star area, for sure.

So right buttock wrapping around to right front thigh is the classic blue field with white stars.

And then I wanted to emphasize for the listener who may have missed this,

the stripes are horizontal.

You know, you would imagine that pants being long, the designer would take advantage of the long legs to put those long stripes, but instead you have a bunch of short stripes like each leg is a barber pole.

And when you look at them, what you really need in order for it to truly be a flag, because you have that whole mess of stars.

How many stars are on your flag pants?

Are there 50?

You know, I haven't counted.

Oh, really?

It doesn't seem like there's enough space for there to be 50.

You really love your pants, and you didn't even count the stars on them.

Huh, interesting.

But you would need like a couple of people who are just wearing barber pole red and white stripe pants standing next to you to complete a full flag.

Probably true, yeah.

Yeah.

That's just the proportions are very unusual.

And I just want to clarify, just in general, that these are Chinos, which is to say what some people would know as khakis, although they're obviously not khaki colored.

And they are tight pants.

I specifically imagined upon hearing described that he wore flag pants all the time, a pair of nylon parachute pants, as I'm sure everyone else who is listening imagined.

But these are classic broy casual pants.

Yeah.

And so let me ask you a question.

Jesse brought this up, and I do have a question about your wearing of the pants.

Do you ever wear them in a way that they are drawn back or bunched up in any way?

No,

I'm not sure what you mean, but I only ever wear them as a.

Just yes or no answers, please.

Yes or no answers, please.

Do you ever wear them as a covering for a ceiling?

No.

Do you ever wear them in such a manner as to permit them to be easily torn, soiled, or damaged?

No.

Do you ever wear them upside down to indicate dire distress or danger to life or property?

Not unless...

The way that they're printed is upside down.

You would have to stand on your head.

Uh-huh.

That might indicate dire distress.

You understand that I'm quoting right now from the United States Flag Code,

which is chapter one of Title IV of the United States Code.

And specifically, it outlines the ways in which the United States flag should be treated and not treated.

And there is punishment.

for failing to comply, which is a fine or imprisonment for up to a year.

Now, that punishment, according to my entire knowledge of the United States Flag Code coming from Wikipedia, has never been and will never be enforced.

Right.

But this is one of the rare times

that we have had a case on the Judge Chen Hadron podcast that has legal ramifications.

And I'm going to tell you right now, there's no way that I can put you in jail.

We don't have internet jail yet.

How's the internet jail coming, Bailiff Jesse?

It's coming okay, but it's about two-thirds done.

We've laid the foundations and we're currently sinking pilings.

Oh, yeah.

All right.

Well, then we're definitely on schedule, but we're not, we can't put you in jail yet, but I will fine you if I find against you.

I'm going to find you money.

How do you like that?

Well, I don't love that.

Why?

Do you think you're going to lose?

I'm not planning on losing, but...

It's certainly a possibility.

Let me give you a hint.

If you were listening to anything I said for the past 10 minutes, you would probably feel unconfident.

That's certainly true.

But I listened to every case with a totally open mind.

And now I will let you make the case for the pants.

Why do you like them so much?

So to talk about why I like them,

we should, I'll tell you about how I acquired them.

Are you telling me that your flag pants have sentimental value?

They have a little.

I mean, it's not I bought them.

It's not like they've been handed down.

That's all right.

I definitely have some fond memories of buying things.

All right.

I'll allow it.

My preferred online men's clothing retailer sells them, and they push them about once a year around 4th of July, as you can imagine,

the most popular time to buy American flag pants.

And I had seen them for a couple of years and

had my eye on them, but sort of dismissed them.

And then one night got had a little too much drink and

just went for it.

And I was thrilled with the purchase.

And since then, I've worn them.

Not, I wouldn't characterize the amount that I wear them as excessive.

I wear them at an occasional baseball game on the 4th of July.

I believe the event that sort of triggered Sarah's complaint in this case was me wearing them on Super Bowl Sunday this year,

which is admittedly more of a borderline case.

And then very, very rarely I'll wear them when it's not necessarily seasonally appropriate, we'll say.

So like the, there's a picture of me at a bowling alley in them.

And that was an example of a time that I just wore them because I knew I was going somewhere super hipstery

and thought it would work out.

Can I just add to this origin story for a minute?

Just to clarify, the day before purchasing the pants, Eric, I didn't realize he had his eye on them for years, but he showed me a picture of them and said, can I buy these pants?

And I said, no.

And then the next day he said, Sarah, I drank too much and I bought those pants.

To quote the mother of a very dear friend of mine,

I know it is wrong, but I'm doing it anyway.

So, Sarah, how often would you estimate Eric wears these pants in the course of a year?

Like once a month?

twice a year, every other day?

What are we looking at?

I would say

maybe three to four times per year.

Quarterly.

Yes, not by the calendar, but yeah.

Or in the summer.

Sure.

One would think.

You wear flag pants after Labor Day, then you've got another...

Well, I have a whole other podcast.

Yeah.

What does Sarah think about the flag pants?

We'll find out when we come back after a quick break.

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We now return to In Flagrante De Licto.

Sarah has brought a case against her husband, Eric.

Eric wears American flag pants.

How does Sarah feel about the pants?

Let's find out.

Sarah, what reaction do you think Eric is trying to get when he wears these pants?

I think he has his heart in the right place.

I think he believes that other people find these pants to be delightful and

amusing and that they will laugh and then he will be best friends with them and they'll laugh about his pants together.

Presuming there is no evidence of that ever happening, may I ask, Sarah, has anyone besides you actually and actively reacted negatively to the pants?

I don't believe anyone has ever reacted negatively.

I think he actually has gotten a couple of positive reactions in the past, actually.

You are not doing a great job arguing your case, Sarah.

I'm just trying to, I'm under oath, so.

But I worry that people are having secret negative reaction, or not secret, but that they don't feel comfortable expressing their reaction.

What are you worried that they are feeling?

If you were to speculate, I would say there's two things that I worry about.

The first is that I'm worried that people might find them disrespectful.

I think a lot of people...

take the American flag as a symbol pretty seriously and that they are not amused that someone would turn them into pants and parade them around.

And so I'm I'm afraid that people are secretly offended and think that Eric is disparaging the flag somehow.

You mean like, for example, by wearing the American flag as a joke garment.

Exactly.

On your butt.

And the other is that I worry that they are sending a message of,

I'm trying to put this neutrally, a kind of aggressive, hostile patriotism that I don't think Eric really believes in, but I worry that people find them to be

a hostile gesture.

So, your concern, to summarize, is that people may see these pants and think he's either mocking the American flag or not mocking the American flag.

Yeah, but they will draw their own conclusions and come up with a bad judgment.

But you're right.

I don't know what people are thinking.

This is all in my mind.

Sarah, do you have any members of your family or have you yourself ever served in the military?

No.

I have worked in the Veterans Administration hospitals.

Oh, are you a doctor?

Yeah.

I see.

And Eric, what do you do?

I'm a statistician at an online education website.

Oh, very good.

And Eric, you do not have any family members who have served in the military.

My grandfather was in the reserves, but that's it.

And he is not alive or is he alive?

He is alive.

Would you wear your American flag pants in front of your granddad?

I don't think so.

Maybe if we were at the same 4th of July party.

It does seem like the 4th of July is a little bit of a carve-out.

Right.

You did mention that you wore them on Super Bowl Sunday.

We are speaking to each other now in the year 2017.

So that was the Super Bowl between the Atlanta Falcons and the New England Patriots.

Right.

And you guys live in the Boston area, I understand?

We do.

It's the largest city in New England, Jesse.

I'm sorry, what's New England?

Can I get a definition?

Are you Patriots fans?

I'm not a strong fan, but I would count myself among their fans.

All right, there we go.

I think I have everything I need to make my decision.

Great.

You lose.

I'm sorry, Patriot fans.

But you could, as a Patriot fan wearing spangles, I mean,

even though the flag code, Sarah, suggests that you should not incorporate the flag into any costumes or uniforms, the Patriots sure do.

So, what was your beef with them wearing it on Super Bowl Sunday?

Well, to be clear, the Patriots don't use the flag as a uniform.

The flag isn't depicted in their uniform.

Rather, it's suggested in their uniform, which is why you can put up red, white, and blue bunting on the 4th of July, but you're not supposed to use flags as drapery.

All right.

You got your judge there, Jesse.

I can tell you've been doing your research.

Except what you don't know as a non-resident of New England is one game of year, the Patriots actually just play with flags wrapped around their waists.

It's a sort of sarong?

Yeah, it's called Flag Day.

Wow.

Somebody should get some pictures of Rob Gronkowski doing this and send them to my friend Guy Branham, the host of Pop Rocket, because he would be very interested.

In any case, Sarah, did anything, has anything ever gone bad on Super Bowl Sunday or anything else where someone has come out and said, dude, not cool?

No, no one has ever, to my knowledge, directly confronted me or Eric about the pants.

I think my objection on the Super Bowl Sunday was that it wasn't like we were

going to a Super Bowl party.

It was sort of earlier in the day.

We were going for a walk in our neighborhood and going to the grocery store.

It really wasn't, the association with the Super Bowl was not clear.

Eric, is this a joke to you?

No, not at all.

And in this instance, Sarah actually convinced me that it was inappropriate to be wearing them, so I changed when we got back to the house.

Excuse me, so I understand the Super Bowl or was it a different instance?

On this Super Bowl day in question from this year.

Oh, I see.

Okay.

But baseball games are okay because that's the national pastime?

Yeah, and actually people generally have very positive reactions at baseball games.

They tend to get on the jumbotron.

And I'll confess I kind of like the attention sometimes.

And bowling is okay because of the presence of hipsters?

Yeah.

I wanted to get back to that one, too.

Well, this particular bowling alley in Cambridge, Massachusetts is a notorious hipster hang.

So,

I mean, and hipsters love America.

They do.

Everyone loves America.

Boy, you know, everything that has been said in the past two minutes feels like it's been an air quote somehow.

Yeah.

Welcome to my life.

Oh, really?

Does Eric have other?

I mean, we know that though he was but a teenager in the 90s, he still obviously

loves draping himself in irony.

Does he have other sincerity issues that you would like to bring up to this court, Sarah?

Um,

no.

He does have a history of only speaking in jokes.

That That sometimes is an issue.

What do you mean?

I think sometimes he will be on a roll where he tries to literally turn everything into a joke, which is sometimes amusing and sometimes it becomes a little tiresome if it's a serious issue to discuss.

Eric, how do you feel when you hear your wife say that?

I'm aware of the issue and I have been working on it actively.

Do you have any other joke clothing that I should be aware of?

I guess I have the Summer Boys tank top from Jordan Jesse Go.

Oh, so the two biggest jokes in the world to you are America and Jordan Jesse Goh.

Oh, to the contrary, we love Jordan Jesse Goh.

But that's not a joke garment that you wear around to get attention.

Like, look at the wacky thing I'm wearing.

No, I'm pretty sure that's why he wears it.

Oh, okay.

I would say, in general, Eric is a very stylish dresser.

He looks snappy and professional most of the time.

Is there any other clothing that you have issue with, Sarah?

No.

Okay.

So, Sarah, if I should rule in your favor, what do you want me to do?

I guess we've established that these are not technically a flag, so we can burn them without fear of reprisal.

I think Eric would be heartbroken if he had to get rid of these pants.

I have no objection to him wearing them on occasions where there is an obvious patriotic celebration going on.

Specifically, I think the 4th of July

and Patriots' Day, which is a big thing in Boston.

Everyone would understand why he's wearing American flagpants on that day.

Yeah, that's a, Jesse, that's a New England-only holiday.

Patriots Day.

It's a celebration of Drew Bledsoe, former quarterback of the New England Patriots?

No.

It commemorates the anniversary of the battles of Lexington and Concord, the first battles of the American Revolutionary War.

It's only observed in Massachusetts and, of course, in Maine, which until 1820 was part of Massachusetts.

Just your little New England minute here on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

My presumption was that it commemorated installing cameras in opposing teams' practice facilities,

or

perhaps slightly deflating footballs, allegedly.

Isn't it ironic that the Patriots New England's own football team, multi-championship football team, should become the Yankees of football?

And by Yankees, I mean the horrible bullies who hate the Red Sox and win all the ways.

Eric is also a Yankees fan.

Wow.

In case that's relevant.

Wow.

Well, I know why you're a Yankees fan, because you're ironic.

To be fair, Judge Hodgman, the moment the Red Sox won the World Series, their fans all transformed into essentially Yankees fans.

Yeah, well, I don't acknowledge that that ever happened in my timeline.

Your timeline ends with Ellis Burke's.

Yeah, what little I understood about sports, which was the Red Sox are a sports team that are lovable losers, disappeared, and I couldn't understand sports anymore after that.

Eric, you're a Yankees fan, sincerely?

Well, it's a, my dad grew up in New York and is a big Yankees fan, so that was imprinted on me from a young age and

remains.

What would your dad think about your flagpants?

He would not care for them.

Why?

He, unlike me, is not at all interested in calling any attention to himself in public.

Oh, okay.

Gotcha.

Great.

And if I were to find in your favor, what would you have me rule?

Just

let your flagpants fly?

Every day, all day, whenever you feel like it?

I think so.

I think I'd like Sarah's trust in

my judgment for when it's appropriate to wear them.

I may have erred a time or two, but I think for the most part, I only wear them when

it is unlikely that they'll be interpreted as

nationalistic or inappropriate.

What to you was the greatest flagpant error that you've made?

It may be

this Super Bowl Sunday example, because we did find ourselves just sort of walking around in the neighborhood, and it was a little awkward.

I think also

wearing them to the bowling alley was fun, but it clearly weirded out some parents who were there with their little kids.

So I won't do that.

How was that clear to you?

I mean,

they

just clearly looked at them and then were...

Looked away.

Just had a sort of weariness about them while we were there.

Eric, Eric, before I go into my chambers to make my decision, I want to understand the reaction to your pants.

I'd like to do a little bit of role play.

First role play I would like to do is, I'm you

at a baseball game with flag pants on.

What does someone say to you as you stroll by with my hot dog naan sandwich and an ice-cold American beer?

Nice pants, dude.

High five.

That's usually how it goes.

And they say high.

Do they actually high five or

do they just gesture high five?

Ironically.

Yeah, it's usually done as a gesture, but right.

I got you.

All right.

Is that a verified thing that happened, or are you just making that up?

You didn't really sell that to me as a performance.

Well, I'm a terrible actor, but that does happen more or less.

I usually get a few high fives.

I've been on the Jumbotron a couple times at some baseball games.

What baseball games did you go to?

They've been worn at Red Sox games,

Padres games, and Nationals games.

All right.

Jumbotron all three times.

No, only at Padres.

Twice, actually.

Twice at the Padres.

Yeah.

Sarah, your man's famous.

Now, look,

now

I want you to do another role play, and this time I really

want you to take a moment, take a deep breath, try to get into this role.

I'm you wearing my flag pants at an afternoon party.

What is Sarah's reaction?

You be Sarah.

Tell me to take them off.

I can't believe you're wearing those here.

Everyone's just looking at your pants.

I can't think about anything else.

Can you please go take them off?

All right, honey.

I'm going to take them off right here in the middle of the party because I love attention.

Why do you check out my Flag of Maryland underwear?

Honestly, I'm just referring that to the flag of Maryland.

The flag of Maryland is tied with Ohio's craziest state flag.

Look them up.

Sorry, Eric.

I cut you off.

Oh,

as Sarah, I think I would prefer a lack of pants to continuing to see those.

Sarah,

actual Sarah now,

not Eric pretending to be Sarah because he's always making jokes.

Oh, boy.

Can't just be himself.

Is that true?

Would you prefer a lack of pants in these flag pants?

Is that the level of your contempt for our nation's symbol wrapped around your husband's junk?

I don't think that Eric should not wear pants in public.

So,

if you had a choice to make?

I guess I would go flag pants over no pants.

All right, so Eric is a liar.

Established that.

Put that down.

Perfect.

It's always making a joke.

All right.

I think I've heard everything I need to in order to make my decision.

I'm going to go sit in my chambers where I have my own personal jumbotron and stare at a giant version of my head while I contemplate my decision.

I'll be back in a moment with my verdict.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Eric, when you wear these flag pants, do you always wear such a riotous shirt that literally gives me a headache looking at both parts of your outfit at once?

Yeah,

that shirt is ridiculous.

Have you thought about just maybe like a blue polo or something?

Yeah, that's more like the, or just a t-shirt.

Sarah, do you think people are secretly resenting you?

In general or related to Eric's American violence?

No, this isn't, I'm not just testing you for paranoia.

No, I mean when Eric's wearing these pants.

I don't think anyone is resenting, but I think some people might be

disapproving.

Would you rather that Eric be wearing these pants as a joke or sincerely?

I would

rather he be wearing them sincerely.

I have no problem with being proud of America.

I'm just not sure this is the right venue, and I'm not sure he really is.

I think he's wearing them as a joke.

Do you think you're going to take home the W in this one?

Wave the flag, as Cubs fans like to say?

Wait, hoist the flag?

What is it?

Whatever they say.

I certainly feel optimistic based on the discussion so far, but I know the judge has a history of surprising last-minute twists in his verdicts, so I'm not sure.

They say fly the W, so don't email me.

Eric, Eric, do you think you've got a shot at winning this thing, even though those pants are a real nightmare?

Like a waking nightmare?

I'm not sure.

I do like to think I wear them sincerely, but I can see how they come across as a failed attempt at humor.

So we'll see how it goes.

We'll see what Judge John Hodgman has to say about all of this when we come back in just a second.

So the 2017 Max Fund Drive was a huge success.

Thank you so much to everyone who joined or upgraded during the drive and to all of our amazing monthly members.

To celebrate, we're giving our $10 and higher monthly members the chance to buy additional enamel pins with the profits going to our friends at the Los Angeles Regional Food Bank.

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And thank you again.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict.

First of all,

I have to,

and this may be the greatest controversy of all,

respectfully disagree with my bailiff with regard to this outfit that I'm looking at,

where Eric is wearing his flag pants, and then also

this blue shirt that, as far as I can tell, has a repeated pattern of, are those fireworks?

Is that what that is?

I think they're intended to be flowers, but...

My hope was that they would resemble fireworks.

You were thinking that way.

I was.

Yeah.

Now, look,

maybe I'm the wrong judge for this because

I am not a men's sartorial expert

the way Jesse is.

And B, unlike Jesse, I do not suffer from migraine headaches.

So

maybe my eyes can bear to goggle at this outfit a little bit longer.

and wonder if not this, while it is madness, a kind of sick-inspired madness, it is provocative, let's put it that way.

And it is clearly designed to be provocative.

You can just see from the look on your face, like, hey, I'm provoking you, right?

I want a reaction.

And

the fact of the matter is that you are going to get a reaction.

You know that you are going to get a reaction because you've gotten them at the baseball field, and you also have gotten at the bowling alley.

This is what you want.

I found it interesting that you said your dad would hate it because he does not want attention.

And clearly, as all sons grow up to defy their fathers, all you want is attention.

And maybe you make no differentiation between

good and negative attention.

I mean, here's what I'm concerned about.

Sarah is concerned that someone might look at those pants and conclude that they are unpatriotic and a denigration of the flag.

Or that someone else might look at you and say, it's too patriotic.

That guy's too into the United States.

Well, Sarah, let me comfort you on one level.

No one would would ever think that he was wearing these pants in a patriotic manner.

Oh, boy.

There's plenty of flag-based apparel which do advertise someone's patriotism, but all of that apparel would never be styled as these are, which A, they're skinny hipster chinos.

I mean, by tailoring alone.

And then by the design,

the barber pole design, that's too wackadoo to be sincere.

These pants are an ironic subversion of patriotism.

And they are tasteless, both intrinsically and extrinsically,

because one,

they look dumb and weird.

They don't even suggest a flag properly.

And two, they're tasteless extrinsically in the sense that you know if i i'm i like this country and if i had fought in a war and i saw your man walking down the street, I would be like, ugh, you know what?

And I didn't fight in a war and I might still be the same.

The pants are tasteless, not merely because

they do, on some gut level, I believe that they denigrate and cheapen the flag, not least because you put your butt on it,

but also, and more importantly, I think, because they are designed merely to get attention.

And what you want in life is for you to be the interesting person, not the clothes you're wearing.

I've gone back and forth in my own mind about this, because the fact of the matter is that Sarah isn't asking for very much.

Obviously, if you were to wear these pants at a 4th of July party that is populated only by your friends, who more than likely share

your views about the United States and flags and the importance of symbols, which is, I presume that you like living in this country, but you're not going to get too worked up if someone's wearing flag pants and maybe it's kind of a funny joke.

That's, you know, that feels intrinsically like a carve-out.

Patriots Day,

that's on theme.

I would argue wearing them on Super Bowl Sunday was actually a pretty interesting improvisation on a theme that probably would work in the circles in which you're traveling.

But if you were to go outside of that circle,

then you're getting into a place where you're provoking people who do not deserve to be provoked by your hilarious ha-ha pants.

And you saw that when you went into that candlepin bowling alley, which you described as a hipster hangout.

And it's true.

Lots of hipsters enjoy bowling, ironically.

And especially candlepin bowling, which by now is the most weirdly regional and hipstery of bowlings.

But bowling is a real,

that's also a real place where real humans go.

Those kids are not hipsters.

Those kids are just there for birthday parties.

But it seemed to me already, Eric, that you had learned your lesson.

You displayed real remorse.

You took Sarah's style counselings on the days that she felt it was inappropriate for you to wear those pants, and you seemed willing to self-deport, as it were, to punish yourself.

and restrain yourself in a way that I almost felt like, well, this isn't a nation of laws and a nation of freedom.

Why not allow this gentleman the freedom of his expression?

That is, after all, what his pants stand for.

But ultimately, I just, I gotta say, you're both wrong.

These pants are no good.

You've had your fun.

I don't believe in wearing costumes all the time.

I think I like your shirt.

I would have liked it better with just some plain old Chinos.

And I think that I'm essentially going to find in Sarah's favors and that I'm going to restrict use of pants, and I'm going to restrict the use of pants to never.

The time has come to retire these pants,

to fold them in that triangular way that the U.S.

flag code calls for,

and put them into a frame and put them on your wall and say, this was my youth.

I also fine you $100

to maximumfund.org slash donate on behalf of the federal government.

This is the sound of a gabble.

Judge John Hodgman rules, that is all.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Sarah, you won this one.

How are you feeling?

I feel pretty good.

I'm relieved and pleasantly surprised that the verdict actually went beyond what I, my wildest dreams.

And I'm happy.

I'm a little sad for Eric because I know he loves these pants, but I am glad that someone else shares my discomfort with them.

Eric, how do you feel?

You know,

unexpectedly, I feel a little relief.

I think I agree it's time to hang him up.

Do you think the next time you're drunk, you're going to buy some of those horizontal corduroys?

No, never.

Eric Sarah, thanks for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

After we thank everyone, a brand new segment on Judge John Hodgman, Swift Justice.

Our thanks this week to Dan Kane for naming this week's episode In Flag Rante Delicto.

If you want to name a future episode, like Judge John Hodgman on Facebook.

Speaking of social media, you can follow us on Twitter.

I'm at Jesse Thorne.

John is at Hodgman.

Hashtag your Judge John Hodgman tweets.

Hashtag JJ H O and check out the Maximum Fund subreddit at maximumfund.reddit.com to chat about each week's episode.

Judge John Hodgman's producer, the great Jennifer Marmor, this week wearing her Judge John Hodgman scarf around her neck in a very charming way.

Now, Swift Justice,

small disputes, big answers.

Trevor H.

wants to know, is it okay to pee in the backyard if the bathroom is busy?

If the bathroom is busy for an unreasonable length of time and you have an emergency situation, I give you permission to pee in the backyard.

And I will confess something to you right now.

One time when I was staying with a friend in San Francisco and it was a shared bathroom and I had to go through someone's bedroom to use the bathroom and I was embarrassed to do that, I peed in the front yard in the middle of the night.

Once when Jordan and I were on a sketch comedy tour in Seattle, sorry, people who did this who probably listened to Judge John Hodgman because they were that type of people.

They had a lot of Buffy DVDs.

We were staying in a converted three-car garage that had been converted into a theater/slash

place to store stuff for Burning Man.

And it was pitch black inside at night.

Jordan had a little bit too much to drink, woke up in the middle of the night, tried to find the door, couldn't, and just peed inside.

That, I would say, is not okay.

But when I say it has to be occupied for a reasonable amount of time, I'm like, longer than is okay.

Like, it's not just like, hey, are you in there?

Yeah, I'll be right out.

Never mind.

I'm going to the backyard.

It has to be a long time.

There has to be an emergency situation.

Here's a question from Woody B.

He asks, I think it's weird to call one's pets one's children or babies.

Am I wrong?

Ah, you are referring to the ever more frequent

fur babies for people who care about their pets as though they were their children and for whom it is, if not the, at least a primary relationship in their life.

I love people who love their pets.

But I have to say,

fur babies is a term that I do not like.

As someone who has raised both an animal and children, and I can tell you, children, it's harder.

I find fur babies an insult to actual parents, and it's frankly an insult to actual fur babies who are babies that dress up as flirty raccoons and go to conventions.

I think it's an insult to Furbies, the 1990s toy craze.

They make Furbies even now, Jesse.

I'll buzzmarket Furbies all day long.

If you have a case for Judge John Hodgman, go to maximumfund.org slash JJ Ho or email us at hodgman at maximumfund.org.

Big or small, we judge them all.

We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

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