In-lawful Gathering

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

This week, in lawful gathering, Reuben brings the case against his wife, Megan.

They live in a small neighborhood near several family members.

They have dinner with their extended family almost every night, with family members rotating the cooking responsibilities.

Megan likes the arrangement.

Reuben wants to opt out.

Only one man can decide.

Please rise as Judge John John Hodgman enters the courtroom.

This undoubtedly is the philosophy of the origin of shame after the fall.

Adam and Eve first sunk the spiritual and the sensual in eating the forbidden fruit, and then, having lost the true balance of their natures, they sunk the spiritual and the sensual in their relations with each other by pushing prematurely beyond the amateur to the propocative, and so became ashamed and began to look with an evil eye on the instruments of their folly.

Jesse Thorne, swear him in.

Please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you, God, or whatever?

Yes, I do.

Yes, I do.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that in his household, the cooking responsibilities rotate amongst his two young children?

Yes.

Yes.

Very well, Judge Hodgman.

You may be seated for an immediate summary judgment in one of yours favors, Reuben and Megan.

Can either of you name, in this case, the person that I was quoting?

I'm not sure that I know the source of this quote other than Wikipedia.

Can you name at least the person that I was quoting as I entered the courtroom?

Megan, you are the defendant in this case, so you may guess first or you may make Reuben guess first.

Which shall it be?

I will make Reuben guess first.

Oh, the coward's way out, Megan.

That's fine.

A lot of people do it.

A lot of people do it.

But now, Reuben, it comes to you.

What is your guess as to that weirdo quote that I quoted?

The quote came from Alexander Hamilton.

Alexander Hamilton, a famous rap artist.

I'm writing that down in my guess book.

That is a guess.

And now,

Megan, you have to guess.

I will guess the author Herman Koch.

Herman Koch?

I don't even know how to spell that.

I mean, Herman, I know.

Is it Koch, like the Koch brothers?

K-O-C-H.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Who's Herman Koch?

He is the author of some best-selling novels, one in particular called The Dinner.

Did you make a list of possible things that I might quote from?

No, but I did make a list of answers I I could give.

What were your other answers?

I'm going to put them all in.

As many as you got.

Okay, there was an article in The Atlantic called The Importance of Eating Together.

The importance of eating together.

Yes, it was actually about the animal kingdom and how they eat each other.

I guess if you're a turkey vulture eating the desiccated remains of a rabbit or something, you kind of are eating together.

Sure.

And then I also wrote down Matthew McConaughey's Oscar acceptance speech.

All right, all right, all right.

Why that?

And he spoke a lot about his family in that one.

Oh, okay.

All right.

Well, since you guessed thrice and Ruben guessed once, I can now say grammatically for the first time, all guesses are wrong.

You were in, it was interesting, you were going for dinner.

I was going more for togetherness,

specifically, or more generally, I should say.

And I was quoting John Humphrey Noyes.

I think I'm pronouncing his name correctly, N-O-Y-E-S.

Do either of you know who he is?

No.

No.

No.

John Humphrey Noyes

was the founder of the Oneida community,

one of the

several major utopian communal living communities.

particularly in the American Northeast, though not exclusively in the 19th century.

Oneida community was located in Oneida, New York.

John Humphrey Noyes,

among other,

they believed in communal living.

Everything was shared,

obviously all food and meals, and also children.

Children were not raised by their parents in the Oneida community.

They were raised by the community.

In fact, attachment between parents and their children was discouraged systematically.

And they also believed in no attachment in sharing of partners.

John Humphrey Noyes is credited with coining the term free love.

Anyone within the community who wanted to hug and kiss someone else in the community could do so, so long as John Humphrey Noyes and his council of old men agreed that that was okay.

Kind of free.

Anyway, he was talking about free love there in that weird quote.

He was the only person I've ever found who was able to make free love sound profoundly unsexy.

History lesson is over.

Now to the future of your communal cult.

Megan and Ruben, you live together.

You are a husband and wife.

Is that correct?

Yes.

Yes.

All right.

And Ruben, you will bring this case against your wife, so I'm going to pepper you with a few clarifying questions here.

What are your ages?

We are both 32.

And you are married?

Married?

11 years.

Is it a traditional marriage or an Oneidan marriage, if you know what I mean?

Just the two of us.

You are not chosen by a council of elders to create genetically perfect children that would be raised in a house outside of your own?

Not that I've been told yet, no.

Our kids are pretty genetically perfect, though.

Well, I was just going to say, Megan, how many genetically imperfect children do you have, and what are their ages?

We have three children, a nine-year-old, a seven-year-old, and a four-year-old.

And you guys live in Arizona, is that correct?

Yes.

All right.

Where in Arizona?

Tucson?

Chandler.

Somewhere between Tucson and Phoenix.

Oh, okay, cool.

I like Tucson, Arizona.

I've never been to Phoenix, though.

And I certainly have not been to Chandler.

Is Chandler an incorporated township, or is that just what you call your compound?

Because this is what it comes down to, right, Ruben?

You guys live in a very dense settlement of friends and family, and you have dinner together every night.

Is that right?

Five nights a week, yes.

Weekdays, weekends.

How's it work?

Describe what's going on.

I'd like to first start out by saying that I love my in-laws very much and

always will, right?

So

the full story.

I like where this is going so far.

About nine years ago,

we

kind of came together.

We were having family dinners on Sundays, which is, you know, kind of a traditional thing, not uncommon at all.

There and Chandler?

There and Chandler, yes, at my mother's.

And family dinner nine years ago,

before you guys joined your cult,

involved how many family members?

Who were the family members?

So,

first of all, my wife comes from a family of ten children.

So, they're.

Whoa.

Yes.

So, the cult has already begun long before our generation, right?

So, there's ten of them.

Megan, did you grow up in a like a free love cult or are you just Catholic?

We're LDS, actually.

Oh, okay.

Gotcha.

Oh, yeah.

So, kind of both.

Right, Right, borderline.

Oh, no.

I don't want to.

I'm just kidding.

Yeah, no, I had forgotten that our LDS neighbors and citizens, they often have a lot of kids.

That's awesome.

All right.

So, you're already, you know, 10 deep in your family.

Are they all coming over nine years ago for dinner, Ruben?

No.

On average, I would say maybe five.

Five of the siblings, and ranging between zero children and three or four children each

sibling.

So are you talking about five humans or five family groups?

Five family groups.

And so.

And this is at the beginning.

This is at the beginning, yes, when it all began.

Right, hold that image, because already we're talking about quite a few people.

Right, I would say

average between 20 and 30.

That's how it started.

Yes, just on Sundays, though, right.

And just once a week.

Right.

And now

it's five days a week.

And how many family units are coming to these ho-downs?

Family units ranging from,

let's say, five people to

one person per family unit, right?

I would say there are two, three, four, five.

So how many people?

I don't do math very well on this show.

I should have told you.

I'm going to say that there's at least 20 people.

Five nights a week.

Correct.

And all at your house, or does this feast move?

So the full history was that.

Yeah, how'd you get from the one place to the next?

So it began with let's deliver dinner to each other's families, right?

So there would be stacks and stacks of a

disposable

food containers, we'll say, to not market any brands, right?

So

I appreciate that, thank you.

They would get delivered to each family, you know, separated as, okay, here's a big container of salad, here's a container of spaghetti or whatever it is that was for dinner.

And so each family would get, or, you know, get a delivery to their home of, here's dinner.

It may or may not be cold.

And enjoy it.

And we'll see you next time.

And so it would.

Was the goal to disrupt the cooking economy?

Are you telling me you guys invented Blue Apron?

Right, right.

And the thing is, though, we only delivered by foot, and so you had to be within 200 yards or so.

Yeah, you got scaling issues.

So, wait a minute.

I'm not sure how this food delivery thing.

No, so it was different.

Not actually

the story.

Not quite Blue Apron, because the food was cooked.

And so you would get delivered a...

a cooked meal.

You didn't have to do it yourself.

You didn't get that enjoyment out of it, right?

You just had to eat the slop.

You didn't get to cook cook it right so

it would you don't have to eat the slop yeah whatever you do continue to swallow the slop that is your deepest feelings about this

um okay go on so i would say that that arrangement lasted maybe one year one calendar year um and and it got to where

Part of the full history is that Megan's father had a pretty severe stroke, and so he was homebound.

And so we would go to my mother-in-law's house to not only visit, but also to kind of ease any kind of

delivery, you know, and

I'll say a large part of it was for our kids to get to know their grandpa because he couldn't come over.

To spend time with grandpa, provide emotional comfort and family.

continuity and also to ease the delivery issues that were going on right in your cat's world dissemination scheme.

Right.

Okay, I get it.

Look, a lot happened.

You know, basically what you're telling me is there was a lot of sharing and caring in this extended family that happened to, I guess, live pretty near each other.

And what started as some casserole sharing, there was some mission creep.

Where are we now?

Which five days of the week do you all eat together?

Are they always at the same house?

How many rental chairs and chafing dishes do you have in your life?

Like, for example, I'm speaking to you right now.

You're in Arizona, so it's about

3 p.m.

your time?

Yes.

And are you having a family dinner tonight?

Yes, we are.

All right.

Describe where you're going, what you're cooking, and what's it going to be like tonight.

So tonight, I don't know who's on the calendar.

It can always change.

Well, there's a set calendar, but sometimes people have to swap nights, right?

Because activities come up.

Ruben?

Yes.

You're giving me too many details.

Megan, break it down for me.

So tonight, my sister-in-law, Shanda, will be cooking.

I don't know what she's making, but it will be ready at 5 o'clock.

Mm-hmm.

And so it's her turn to cook, and she's hosting at her house?

No, she usually brings it to my mom's house.

So we normally eat at my mom's house, except on the night that I cook.

Thursday night, we eat at our house.

And does your mom live in the house from Citizen Kane or Bruce Wayne's house from the Tim Burton Batman movie?

She lives in a house that my dad designed before I was born, and it was big enough for 10 children.

Yeah, right.

So it's a pretty large house and we live on a lot of property and so she has a very large yard.

Now, I'm going to, you have submitted some evidence, which are some aerial photographs of where you live in relation to everyone else.

And obviously this image image is going to be put up on the website, maximumfund.org on the Chetchian Hodgman page, specifically this show page.

And I encourage everyone to look at this image because it really does look like evidence.

It's an aerial image with a lot of annotations.

It looks like something you would hold up in a courtroom

if you were prosecuting a cult or an organized crime family.

I wonder if there's a system that determines who's allowed to eat indoors and who's allowed to eat outdoors on a given night.

There is a system.

It's color-coded.

So, what we have here is we have one home that is surrounded by a purple rectangle and it says our house.

And then, in clear, I would say walking distance.

In fact,

you've given me a scale of 200 feet.

So, I'm going to say 200, maybe 300 to 400 feet away

is a red square,

which is your mother-in-law's house.

That is to say, Megan's mom's house.

Yes.

Which was built for volume dining, as Megan pointed out.

Correct.

It's a mess hall.

Right.

And then you have some houses marked as non-co-oppers.

That is to say, people in the neighborhood who do not come over.

Correct.

They're family, but they don't partake in the weekly dinners.

Yeah, they're crumb bums and they don't deal with the program.

I gotcha.

Okay, and then there's family of five.

And then my favorite part of this whole thing is that there are labels throughout the green space between the houses telling what they're for.

And the labels are

cows, cows, cows, cows, horse, horse, well,

Joe,

pirate ship, chickens, horse death, garden, and then trouble.

Every one of those, except for cows, is a story.

I think even cows is a story.

I mean, it starts when a bull meets a heifer.

When a bull loves a heifer very much and lives in a compound with all of its family

in suburban Phoenix.

So tell me, what does trouble indicate?

That trouble is near your house.

Correct.

What's that?

We have a set of neighbors that we don't always

get along with.

I don't know.

They're non-family.

They've been there a while, and we we just kind of have come to a

let's agree to not agree.

It goes in between them yelling at us for everything we do and running away as soon as they see us.

What do they yell at you for?

Let's start with.

So we flood, irrigate, and one time the irrigation got out into the dirt road, and that bothered them a little bit.

Okay.

What do you raise in a crop?

I'm a a city mouse.

I don't know what that means.

So you have to illuminate me, please.

So we pull water out of the ground and flood irrigates where we have maybe six inches of standing water to water the grass and the trees.

Oh.

And so it made its way out of the pasture where the cows are and

ran through the road and ran havoc.

All right.

So but these neighbors don't come into the story or the case that we're adjudicating today.

You just wanted to put trouble on top of their house.

Right.

One of the things I hear about these people

that is real trouble is that they never, ever, ever listen to podcasts, right?

That's true.

Right, right.

There's no way that they're ever going to hear you badmouthing them.

They're your neighbors.

Because this is a pretty close compound, though.

I mean, it is.

I see that you see, like, in mother-in-law's house, you also have a related family of four.

You have a great uncle, three great-grandchildren.

There's a related family of five.

There's one pretty big house in this square.

It's like basically a square block.

And your family controls, I would say, one, two, three, four,

four-sixths of that.

And if someone wants to reduce that fraction for me, I'd appreciate it.

But, you know, a majority of the homes back up onto this common area where the horses and the cows live.

And you guys are walking back and forth, especially to mom's house, four nights out of the week

with food.

You rotate the cooking, and then one night out of the week,

Megan, it's your turn to cook, and they all come over to your house.

Is that how it goes?

Yes, that's how it goes.

All right.

Wow.

And so we're basically talking about people sitting down, 20, 25 people an evening, right?

It's closer to 16 people.

On Sunday nights, we have more family that comes over that's not a part of our compound.

And then it's about 20 people.

We'll have more of this case in just a second.

But first, we're going to take a quick break and retire to chambers.

You're listening to Judge John Hodgman.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

Of course, the Judge John Hodgman podcast, always brought to you by you, the members of MaximumFun.org.

Thanks to everybody who's gone to maximumfund.org slash join.

And you can join them by going to maximumfun.org slash join.

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I have a little

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Let them know Jesse and John sent you.

When you refer to it as a co-op, as you did on your charts and your graphs,

is it a legit?

Did this begin as a co-op as a way of sharing food costs and

so forth?

Or is that just your sort of catchphrase for it, Ruben?

I didn't come up with the phrase, but it was brought to us kind of when the founder of the idea

brought the idea to everyone.

Who is the founder?

My sister-in-law.

Are you allowed to speak her name, or can you only refer to her as the founder?

The founder.

Her name is Natalie.

All right.

Megan, do you

confirm that the founder, Natalie, began this thing?

I can't remember if it was Natalie, our sister-in-law, or if it was my sister, Elise.

All right.

So the situation basically is, Megan, you like this.

You grew up in a family of 10.

You love all this closeness.

Yes.

And you want to leave the situation as it is.

Yes.

And Ruben, if I find in your favor, because you're a crumb rum introvert who hates Megan's family and you walk around with trouble above your head, you don't want to have any shared dinners except on the classic Sunday dinner.

Is that right?

You don't have to respond to my meanness of your character, just the basics of the ruling.

You don't want to have dinner except on Sunday.

Yeah, specifically, you will not have an opportunity to respond on his meanness of your character.

That's correct.

Okay.

So obviously what you like, Megan, is the closeness, right?

Yes.

Is there anything more going on that I should know about besides you love your family, you love your sisters, you love your mom?

It's the sense of family continuity.

Yes, I do love that.

I also love that I don't have to cook every night and that I don't have to ask Ruben, what do you want for dinner every night?

You know?

Because no matter what it is, it won't be what he wants.

Well, he'll eat whatever I make.

I just don't want to have to come up with the idea.

Right.

Essentially, you're responsible for cooking for

the commune

one night a week.

Yes.

At your house.

Yes.

And then there are two nights just that you just have regular old family din.

Yes, which is usually us at about 7.30 going, oh, we should probably feed our kids.

Where should we go?

And then we go out to eat, and it's 8 or 8:30 before we eat.

Yeah, that's called America.

Yeah.

Or at least that's called Park Slope.

Ruben, I have to say that, you know, the very sort of normal, atomized,

disinterested,

let's just do the easiest thing possible dinner that Megan describes

as being your

non-commune nights of eating.

You know, that's pretty typical.

And whereas the commune eating seems very meaningful and deep almost, and obviously affords some benefit to your wife, because I am inferring by what she's talking about that she's the one responsible for cooking most of the time in your house.

Do you cook, Ruben?

I do.

I like to help.

Hang on a second.

Megan, does Ruben ever do a whole dinner by himself?

He has.

This sounds very

judgy.

That's the name of the podcast.

But I don't mean it that way.

People break down household chores in different ways.

I'm just curious as to whether cooking

itself is a meaningful part of Ruben's life that he enjoys and maybe misses out on because most of the time it's the sisters' trade and casseroles.

I do the majority of the cooking, but if he ever wants breakfast for dinner, he does it because I don't like breakfast for dinner.

Oh, a dad after my own heart.

Ruben, what do you make for breakfast for dinner?

Well, we'll go bacon, pancakes, eggs.

Those are the classics, right?

We've gone as deep as French toast.

I'll roast some potatoes, even, you know.

Now we're talking about brunch for dinner.

So not only is this a deep spiritual and emotional connection to Megan's family, but it also saves her a fair amount of work, it sounds like.

So why are you trying to shut this thing thing down?

It's very special and unique and unusual.

I will agree that I love not hearing what do you want for dinner.

I only hear that a couple of times a week, you know, and so that's great.

Yeah, I know.

It's such a chore to hear someone ask about their needs and desires.

It's a little different in Park Slope,

at least in my house.

It's not easy.

So some of the reasons that I would like to cease this daily dinner is,

well, I'm sure you've seen the movies where there's just a family gathering maybe for Thanksgiving or Christmas,

and

that describes five of my seven nights.

Basically,

you know, someone could

run through the room with their hair on fire, literally, and then someone could drop a turkey, or someone could break a window.

Who knows?

It's just

sometimes it can be a little bit chaotic,

which

I'm not

that kind of person.

I don't love the chaos, whereas Megan's family, they embrace it.

And I love them for that, but it's just not me, right?

Now hold on, Ruben.

I'm not buying it.

Based on your tone thus far in this podcast, I believe you to be an outrageous wild man.

There are times.

There are times.

I will say, first of all, I apologize for calling you a crumb bum.

But I will concur with my good bailiff that

you have the tone of something of an introvert.

Would that be fair to say?

Yeah, I also studied engineering in college, believe it or not.

Oh, boy.

What does that prove?

Proves that he listens to the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

We would also have accepted librarian.

You're used to doing quiet work on your own.

Quiet work staring at my own shoes.

Yeah.

Do you have many siblings?

There are five siblings in my family.

If I may ask, are you also, did you grow up in the LDS church?

I did.

Yeah, okay.

So that's not a cultural divide for you.

Right, right.

Right, okay.

Gotcha.

When you go over to dinner,

well, I'm going to ask Megan this question.

When Ruben's at dinner, does he have a good time?

Does he stay silent by himself in the corner?

Does he talk to a lot of people?

What goes on?

I will say that it's about half and half.

Sometimes he is really outgoing and talks to everybody, and sometimes

he sits in the corner or leaves to go work on whatever he wants to work on.

He really enjoys working outside, and so he always has some kind of project that he can go work on outside.

In fact, you sent in some evidence in addition to this image

where

there are photos of the various setups,

the long tables with the many chairs,

what look like some beautiful pressed-back chairs, by the way, very nice, where the kids are eating dinner and the adults are eating dinner.

And that, I think, must be at your mom's house.

Yes.

All right.

And then you also have a picture of, I'm quote, a large table that Ruben built for our porch with 11 chairs around it.

That's a beautiful table that he made, Ruben.

Thank you.

And of course, because you're in Arizona, you can eat outdoors all the live long day.

Yes, we can.

Yeah.

So, Ruben, you put 11 chairs around this table.

Megan says, look, he put 11 chairs around this table as if that's evidence, like you want this to happen.

You want 11 people over all the time.

Megan, did you point out there are 11 chairs around that table because you think there should be more, or you think that Ruben secretly likes having 11 people at dinner?

I just think that he literally made it available for use for 11 people outside.

We don't have 11 people in our family.

Right.

You're saying that he built a table for all your family because he likes it.

Exactly.

It's called Stockholm Syndrome, Megan.

I'll take it.

And I'll tell you another reason why he put 11 around that table because this outdoor table, I mean, look at that outdoor carpeting.

You know, me and Marie Kondo, we don't like any clutter.

There's no clutter here.

Now, with all due respect to your mom,

your mom's house is crazy.

Yes.

All right.

Here's where the kids eat dinner.

You sent in this image of the child sitting on the table.

That was me.

That was Ruben that sent in that.

Oh, okay.

And then where the adults eat dinner.

So I kind of, you know, this has a groovy vibe.

It's a long table with got these press back chairs and a chandelier that seems to have like a tank top hanging off of it.

And then there's one child sitting on the floor eating dinner off a stool next to a washing, a dishwashing machine.

And then, where the adults are eating dinner, I mean,

I can't tell.

You're going to have to forgive me because there's something in here that could either be a black, glossy beanbag chair or a contractor bag full of garbage in the middle of the room.

It's definitely next to some dinner time bare feet.

And there's no table at all.

Everyone's just sitting around on wing chairs and stuff.

And what appears to be a grown adult wearing a onesie decorated as though it were a Christmas stocking?

Here's what I'm saying.

Like, I love the family togetherness you're describing, but the Marie Kondo in me is not getting sparked with joy.

It's getting sparked with anxiety looking at this chaos.

Is it possible that you accidentally sent us pictures of a group of English punk rockers eating in a squat in 1983?

Can I add something?

Yes, you may.

Okay, that is a garbage bag, a black garbage bag full of trash.

But it functions as a shiny black beanbag chair.

But my mom is currently cleaning out a craft room.

because my uncle is moving in with her, and so she is making space for him.

And so that is not permanently there.

I gotcha.

It's not a permanent trash storage area.

It's a temporary trash storage area and dining room.

Look, I fully accept that your husband Ruben, who is so soft-spoken,

has purposefully and deviously submitted prejudicial evidence.

There's no question that this is as much propaganda as it is evidence.

Yes.

Since he knows probably of my dislike for clutter and

my terrible dislike of eating buffet style.

Absolutely.

But it does feel like chaos.

And I mean, Jesse Thorne, what do you think?

I find it maddening to look at, and I like clutter.

Is there any redeeming thing that you found in the mom's house, Jesse, that would make you want to go have dinner there?

Funny you should mention that, Judge Hodgman.

There's a photograph, and I, first of all, I just want to say that I'm grateful that any litigant on the Judge John Hodgman podcast would take the time and make the effort to pander to me.

There is a photograph here of an industrial pebble ice machine.

At whose house is this pebble ice machine located?

Yes, because this could decide the case.

That is at my mom's house.

I thought you in Megan's favor.

Yeah, I'm ready to come over right now.

I'm on a popular clothing purchase website buying myself a Christmas stocking onesie to wear.

Yeah, I'm on a popular online retailer buying extra large contractor bags that I'm going to fill with packing peanuts so that I'll have some place to sit.

Because I will say, for all of

the chaos, which, by the way, you know, I'm just ribbing you.

You know, it's a big family, a lot of kids, a lot of people, a lot of people comfortable with a level of chaos and disorder that I find personally difficult to tolerate.

But for all of that, I would come and

I would have a drink full of that pebble ice.

The fact that your mom has an industrial ice maker really speaks to me.

I like that a lot.

A lot of people do.

A lot of people just stop by, fill up their cups, and hit the road.

That's one of the tenets of Mormonism, right?

Make ice available to your neighbor.

Yeah, all right.

So, Ruben, you're obviously trying to emphasize the

not merely expected chaos of a big family dinner, but the very particular chaos that you find over at your mother-in-law's house.

And you love your in-laws very much.

Of course.

That has been established.

But is...

Are you trying to say that

it's the chaos that turns you off?

So the chaos, I would say, is not even the first

point that I would like to make, or at least my point, my

dislike of, or rather my hope for getting out of.

I have a few other reasons.

Okay, give them to me real quick.

And in this one, I want you to talk, I mean, you don't actually have to talk like the Hulk, but I want you to think like the Hulk.

Okay.

I want you to go deep inside because you're a very polite dude,

and you make your points through subtle indirection, framings of photographs, labeling certain houses trouble that have nothing to do with this case.

You know what I mean?

You get around to it eventually, but I just need you to be very super direct.

And just like, this is what's driving me crazy about this.

Okay.

Can I even go in Caveman speak?

I would.

I would pay you money.

Okay.

Big dinner kids no eat

when other kids around.

Often me like that.

Me say keep go.

Often too much mess.

No one feels responsible for cleaning mess.

Me feel that for sure.

But caveman no say often.

Maybe say often.

Often.

Good that caveman Hodgman draw a line somewhere.

okay kidno eat mess mess stay mess messe mess and more

others others show up who no participate in dinner co-op

dead beats eat food no bring food no bring food

dead beats eat food no bring food clean up

or no clean up

sometimes take ice and go away

yes

Who deadbeats?

Me want names.

He's shaking his head, no.

No?

No.

Megan, you know who he's talking about?

You don't have to give me names.

Yes, I know who he's talking about.

I do have family members that when they come into town to visit, they'll eat dinner without making dinner.

Or occasionally some of my teenage nieces will come over because they train train one of the horses that we have and they're just around at dinner time, so they come and eat.

And occasionally we have friends that just stop by at dinner time and come and eat.

So I feel you, Ruben, on the kids don't eat because they get a little excited and distracted.

But I also know that kids, like, you know, my own, my own children could live off of a single cheese puff a week.

Our kids are very healthy.

Right.

Yeah, I'm sure they are.

And then also, people don't participate in cleaning up.

And but why does that bother you?

Do you feel that the burden falls to you?

Quite often, yeah.

Just because I like to help out, and I don't want to put any more stress on my mother-in-law or anyone else, right?

So I'll help clean up.

And

I think it goes to the crowd mentality, right?

When there's too many people there, no one feels responsible sometimes.

No, not no one feels responsible.

Only Ruben feels responsible.

Only me feel responsible.

That's why Ruben offended Deadbeats Show Up, Take Ice, and No pay.

Well, and the Deadbeats, I love them and I want to feed everyone, right?

So everyone's welcome.

It's just tough sometimes.

Did you ever consider just like maybe not going a couple nights a week?

I mean, Megan, would that upset you?

No, I've told him that he can skip out on dinner and I would bring dinner home.

And I've also told him that he could come and eat and leave.

Well, on the condition that I come back and pick her up from the house, though, because she doesn't want to walk home alone with the kids.

Why don't you want to walk home alone with the kids?

So

there's trouble nearby.

We do sometimes have...

Yeah, there's trouble nearby.

We do sometimes have coyotes in our neighborhood.

But what it really is, is that,

oh, this is going to sound so dumb.

We have large

horned owls in our neighborhood.

And they will sometimes swoop at our dog.

And so that scares the kids.

or or

I'm worried that they'll swoop at our kids sometimes.

So Ruben you don't want to go and pick them back up because you don't care about owl attack?

Right, right.

And how long does dinner usually take when you go over to your mom's house, Megan?

We are usually there for about an hour.

An hour in and out, a whole meal?

Yes.

Do you even talk to each other?

We do.

We show up after dinner is ready, like it's ready to go.

We grab our food,

buffet style.

And then you're out of there before anyone thinks to ask you to help clean up.

We always clean up our mess.

So I understand, again, Megan, you want me to order everything to stay the same.

Yes.

Ruben, you want me to order everything not be the same.

In fact,

specifically cut down big family dinner to two nights a week, correct?

To just Sundays, one nights a week.

One, just one, just one.

And would you be willing to save your wife from owls on that one night a week?

Absolutely.

I would stay there the entire time.

All right.

I think I have heard everything I need to hear.

I'm going to go sit in a garbage bag now and make my decision.

Jesse Thorne, as you interview the litigants,

one thing I did not get to cover is some of the foods that are served.

So maybe you could ask them, along with also questions about their feelings.

But in the meanwhile, I'll be back in a moment with my decision.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Reuben, how are you feeling about your chances in this case?

You know,

I thought I had a solid case, but I'm not sure right now.

What's your favorite thing that one of your these relations of yours cooks?

Oh, enchiladas.

What kind of enchiladas?

Green chili.

Oh, yeah, that does sound good.

What's your least favorite thing that one of these relatives cooks?

Oh, anything with mushrooms.

Like what?

Like

mushroom burgers.

Yeah, mushroom burgers.

There's some risotto that has mushrooms and that's not as good, but when she makes it without mushrooms, it's like stellar.

Megan, how are you feeling about your chances?

I came into this a little bit nervous because I know that our situation is unique, but I feel like

maybe you guys really understand the importance of family and of quality time.

And so I'm feeling pretty good.

Megan, what's your favorite thing to eat at your relations' houses?

My mom makes

everything she makes.

Specifically chicken noodle soup that my mom makes.

What's special about it?

She makes the noodles.

She cooks the chicken broth all day long.

It's just delicious.

It's fabulous.

Wait, like she makes the noodles from scratch?

Yeah, everything.

Oh, that sounds dope.

She's even made the chickens from scratch.

Megan, what's your least favorite thing that one of these relations cooks?

Anything with coconut in it.

My sister-in-law makes a coconut curry that I don't love.

Well, we'll see what Judge John Odgman has to say about all of this, including that amazing-sounding chicken noodle soup.

which probably ships pretty well.

I mean, if you froze it first and shipped it overnight, it'd probably make it.

It does.

It does freeze well.

We'll see what Judge John Hodgman has to say when we come back in just a second.

You know, we've been doing my brother, my brother, me for 15 years, and

maybe you stopped listening for a while, maybe you never listened.

And you're probably assuming three white guys talking for 15 years, I know where this has ended up.

But no, no, you would be wrong.

We're as shocked as you are that we have not fallen into some sort of horrific scandal or just turned into a big crypto thing.

Yeah, you don't even really know how crypto works.

The only NFTs I'm into are naughty, funny things, which is what we talk about on my brother, my brother, and me.

We serve it up every Monday for you if you're listening.

And if not, we just leave it out back and goes rotten.

So check it out on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts.

All right, we're over 70 episodes into our show.

Let's learn everything.

So let's do a quick progress check.

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Yes, episode 59.

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Same episode, actually.

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Episode 64.

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Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom.

So obviously, I want to come to dinner.

I was hearing some of those foods that were being...

mentioned.

You are welcome anytime.

As much as I don't love eating on the lap, especially in a room full of garbage, I would love to get

some of that pellet ice, some of

that chicken soup, some of the enchiladas.

I'll even eat that mushroom burger.

I'm not going to.

All of the mushroom risotto, though, for sure.

I will say

I would prefer, frankly, and no offense to your mom, but like, I want to sit on that porch that Ruben built, on that table, rather, and eat at that table that Ruben built.

It's beautiful.

Come on a Thursday.

Oh, is that you?

Because that's your night.

That's my night.

Yeah.

And yet I feel for Reuben, because even though Reuben himself comes from

a not small family, certainly by Park Slope standards,

and

is obviously at home and at peace in your family and loves them and everything else, he feels,

speaking to him, he feels alone to some degree, feels lonely in that crowd.

And his devotion to

you is

obviously clear because you have given him permission to blow it off.

And you know, if I were your husband, I would be like, thank you.

Goodbye.

I am going to see what I can stream right now from culture.

I'm going to go home and make myself some scrambled eggs and watch Search Party or whatever.

Or maybe I'll re-watch OJ Made in America, which should get an Academy Award.

But it doesn't matter.

The point is, as a father with kids, I would love, I would grab that alone time, especially if I were an engineer, I would grab that alone time with both hands, shove it in my mouth, and that would be my dinner.

Solitude.

That's all I want to eat.

But he's so devoted and conscientious

that he not only sticks around, but comes and saves you from owls.

Yes.

It's very sweet.

But let me tell you something.

Reuben,

some of this problem is yours.

I'm not saying

you don't deserve your caveman feelings,

but

you're feeling obliged to clean up when others do not.

You're getting angry at those deadbeat teenagers coming in and eating food and doing nothing.

That's something that I think you would be happier to let go of in your life.

Yeah.

Part of submitting to the chaos.

And believe me, I mean, you know,

if I lived alone,

the table you made would be my sole possession.

A big table with nothing on it.

That would be what I want.

But of course, I live in collision with my wife, who is

much more of a,

I don't want to say, I mean, she's not a clutter person.

She just doesn't see clutter the same way I do.

Do you know what I mean?

Yes.

And there is a certain element of if you're going to go over there,

you got to,

as in everything with marriage, you both have to surrender a little bit, particularly to in-laws and the culture of in-laws, which is, yeah, I'll eat dinner next to a garbage bag.

It was full of papers, not gross garbage.

Look, hey, look, you know what?

The photos photos don't lie.

Sorry.

Who knows what was in that bag?

And I think that, first of all, you are going to be going over there.

You know this.

Right.

You are going to be going over to your mother's house.

You cannot just have one night of family dinner at your house, at your table, where you can control everything.

You're going to go into the abyss from time to time.

And I'm encouraging you to let go of

the resentment and frustration that you have that people aren't participating in the way you want them to, because it turns out that other people are other people and they will always be other people, and you can't control them.

You can only control yourself.

And sometimes controlling yourself means giving up control.

Just like, okay, this is what's happening.

I would say,

Megan,

you guys, your time, I appreciate that this is an unburdening

to you because you don't have to cook so much.

But I think that the balance of time that you spend with your in-laws versus the time you don't feels, at least for Ruben's mental health, a little unbalanced.

I mean,

four nights a week,

if he's unwilling to stay home by himself for two nights a week, because he actually loves his family and wants to see them, it feels like a lot, honestly.

And that's not even counting the night that's at your house.

Do you know what I mean?

Yes.

And I don't want to rob you of closeness with your family, but last time I checked, a week was seven days and four was more than half.

And five is definitely more than half.

And I think that because Ruben might be able to let go of his resentment of teenagers.

and other deadbeats who are just coming by for the Pelladise.

His adoration for you and his family is such that he will never feel really comfortable just going home by himself.

That's not how he wants to live.

He wants to be there for you.

And since this cooperative is sort of more of a potluck rather than a buy-in situation, where if you take out your shares, the whole pyramid scheme collapses.

I got to say,

I'm ordering, we're going to cut those days in half.

Two nights at your mom's,

where it is obliged for Reuben to go.

One night at your house for everybody.

That's three nights, because three is less than half.

And there is no half.

That's why weeks are so terrible, because you can't cut them in half.

So every other week, two nights at your mom's, once at yours.

And then the other week, two nights at your mom's, twice at yours.

I'm going to cut this baby right down the middle.

I hear a a baby crying because I'm cutting it in half, Solomon style.

Because there's so much virtue in what you guys are doing at your mom's house and especially at your house.

But there's also real virtue, even among large families.

And, you know, I come from

my mom had, you know, seven siblings, Catholic style.

You know what I mean?

Like, there's so much value in spending that time together.

But there's also, and my mom's sisters are very close and see each other all the time.

But you have to have your own life as a family too.

You have have to protect that and value that as well, or else you get labeled trouble.

So, Ruben is an engineer.

He's going to figure out the math on this one, but you hear what I'm saying.

Yes, two and one every other week, two and two every other week.

This is the sound of a gavel.

Judge John Hodgman rules as all.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Ruben, it's a compromise decision.

How do you feel?

Nice that I kind of get out of a few nights, but also that means more nights at my own house where I'm 100% responsible for any mess, right?

And

I welcome it.

Let's get that table used up, I guess.

Megan, how are you feeling?

I feel good.

I feel like that was a good compromise.

I'm a little bit worried that it's going to get confusing for my other family members that are cooking, whether or not we will be there or not.

But I feel like it's a good compromise.

Aaron Powell, if only there was some sort of

wired information network, or like a combination wired and wireless information network that had its own calendar, I'll call them, for lack of a better word, programs or sites

that facilitated communication.

Or alternately, you could train the owls to bring letters back and forth.

Excellent.

Megan, seriously, though,

I think it's a lot cheaper to send a bigger freezer pack than a smaller one.

So if you feel like sending the soup, you could also include some pebble ice.

Absolutely.

Oh, I forgot one thing.

What's that?

Megan and Ruben?

Yes.

You got to get a pebble ice maker.

Ooh.

So or.

Yes.

I like the big ice.

Well, you're wrong.

Megan, Rubin, thanks for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Another thrilling case on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

And my definition of thrilling case is, if I might be more specific, any case involving pebble ice.

I want some of that soup and I want some of that enchiladas.

And I also think maybe we should record the podcast earlier in the day because I'm starving.

You know what I think I'm going to do?

No.

I've been hearing that maybe my friend and yours, Benjamin Harrison, co-host of The Greatest Generation, MaximumFund.org's smash hit Star Trek the Next Generation podcast.

Yeah, I got a thing to say about that in a minute, but you go.

Okay, well, I think I've been hearing that at some point he may move from his current home in Brooklyn to my own environs of Los Angeles.

And I think I may try and convince him and his beautiful wife, Rachel, to buy a house right next door to mine so we could share custody of a Pebble ice machine because he's the only man in the world that I know that shares my passion for Pebble Ice.

This is going to turn into, you know what, you guys are going to have overhead pictures of your neighborhood and trouble is going to be over both of your houses once you start having your Pebble ice feud.

I won't just write trouble over my neighbor's five cars.

Well, let me just say, I'm so glad to have every new listener who comes to us via any means.

But it really struck me the other day when I was reading Twitter and doing a Judge John Hodgman search and found a guy who was like, I just discovered this podcast, Judge John Hodgman, because it was mentioned on my favorite podcast, The Greatest Generation.

Greatest Generation with Pranica and Harrison.

It's a great podcast, but it's been around for two seconds.

We've been here for half a decade.

Do it.

Well, The Greatest Generation, Judge Hodgman.

It's a smash hit podcast.

I own Planet.

It's a wonderful podcast.

I believe it's a member of the Maximum Fun family.

Is that not so?

That's absolutely the case.

And look, if you like a Maximum Fun podcast, if you like all of them, if you like some of them, if maybe you're listening to a Star Trek Flophouse and you've never heard of Judge John Hodgman, doesn't matter to me.

The fact that you love Maximum Fun is enough.

And, well, no, it's not.

It's actually not enough.

It's not enough at all.

You can love a thing, but if you are able to and can support it, that's even better.

And luckily, we make it easy for you by having a fund drive every year.

Is that right, Jesse?

Yeah, that's true.

It's how we support this podcast and all of the podcasts in maximumfund.org.

It's real simple.

If you're pure of heart, give us a few dollars a month

at maximumfund.org slash donate and tell us what shows you listen to.

And then your money goes directly into the production of those shows.

So, you know,

look,

Judge John Hodgman and I certainly, we're thrilled hobbyists.

We're delighted to be here.

We don't have anything better to do with our lives, but we have a full-time professional producer who books and vets and edits and, you know, the whole nine yards, this program, the great Jennifer Marmor.

And

look, we got to buy food for Jen's dog.

Jen's dog could die if you don't support us in the Max Fun Drive.

Well, look, emotional stakes just got very high.

As we said in

the Maximum Fun Drive before, don't do it, do, do, do it.

But I think the new, I think the logo for Max Fun Drive 2017 is, look,

you know what this is.

You know what the right thing to do is.

Yeah, support the Max Fun Drive and tell them that you listen to the greatest generation.

There's no greater gift in the world of the computer, as our president says, than the opportunity to support the culture that you love directly without a middle person.

Yeah.

And our thanks not only to all of you out there who donate, but to our wonderful producer, Jennifer Marmer.

Our thanks also to Rich Davis, who named this week's episode.

If you want to name a future episode of Judge John Hodgman, well, it's fun and easy.

All you have to do is like Judge John Hodgman on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Jesse Thorne and at Hodgman.

And you'll be in the loop for the next time that comes up.

And Judge Hodgman, let's say one of our listeners has a dispute that might need solving.

Where can they go?

Well, just go to maximumfund.org/slash JJ Ho.

That's maximumfund.org slash JJ Ho.

You'll find a form there.

You can fill out your dispute right there, or you can write me at Hodgman at maximumfund.org.

Guess what?

The form that you fill out at JJ Ho goes directly to that email address, which goes directly to me.

I love reading all your letters.

I respond to as many as I can.

I try for all of them.

If you don't hear back from me right away, it may be because we're considering your case for the podcast, for the docket, or maybe for the New York Times magazine Column Net that I do under the name of John Hodgman, my name.

Reachable at hodgman at maximumfund.org or maximumfund.org slash jjho.

You know who responds to all of their emails, Judge Hodgman?

Don't tell me.

It's Captain Picard or whatever.

Yeah, it's Ben and Adam from the greatest generation.

Oh, maybe that's why they are so beloved.

That's it.

Got another great show in the books.

Mark it down, Jennifer.

We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

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