The Emoluments Pause

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman Podcast.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

This week, the emoluments pause.

Tamara brings the case against her husband, Aaron.

Tamara says their kids have too many toys and nowhere to store them.

She wants to put a moratorium on incoming gifts for one year.

Aaron thinks this is too extreme.

Who's right?

Who's wrong?

Only one man can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents the obscure cultural reference.

She gave me life and milk from her breasts, and I gave her a podcast.

She nursed me in many a sick room, lifted teaspoons of medicine to my lips, set cold facecloths on my forehead, then led me out into the airy light, and taught me to walk and swim, and I, in turn, presented her with a podcast.

Here are thousands of meals, she said, and here is clothing and a good education.

And here is your podcast, I replied, which I made with a little help from my bailiff.

Bailiff Jesse Thorne, please swear them in.

Please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you, God, or whatever?

I do.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the bias inherent in his bumper sticker, which says, he who dies with the most toys wins?

I do.

I do.

Very well, Judge Hodgman.

Bailiff Jesse, you should also know that I have a poster in my room which has a picture of a Lamborghini,

a champagne bottle, and a beautiful woman.

And the caption is, choices.

You guys should know, by the way, litigants, just FYI, Judge John Hodgman is a stage name.

Maybe that's not obvious, but it's a stage name used exclusively for judging.

His birth name is Doc Hollywood.

That's right.

That's exactly right.

Michael J.

Fox for the win.

You may be seated.

I'll have order in this room.

Order, please.

Shut your pieholes.

Thank you, Jesse.

Your catchphrase.

Tamara and Aaron, you may be seated.

Aaron,

we were chatting before the thing, and you are a chatty friend.

Obviously, already interrupting you.

I apologize.

Yeah, yeah, already.

You were bringing it.

You were already talking about our audio setup before we even started recording.

You work in the audio field, sir?

I work in film and television, yes.

All right.

Mr.

Know-It-All.

He's Judge Judy from the Judge Judy Shop.

Whatever you may be, know-it-all,

film and television, like a grip, a gaffer, a best boy, a judge, you are the defendant in this case here today in my courtroom.

And therefore,

for an immediate summary judgment in one of yours favors, you're going to get the first crack at guessing the cultural reference that I made as I entered the courtroom.

Or you may pass that guess along to Tamara.

What is your decision, Aaron?

I'll pass.

Is that okay?

Well, it's the classic.

It's the coward's way.

Oh, wow.

I'll do it.

That's fine.

No, you're allowed to be a coward in this courtroom.

Go ahead and show your true colors.

Yellow.

Tamara, Aaron has passed the first guess over to you, hoping that by your guess, he might get some clue, some hint, some uh possible guess that he might make himself uh what is your guess i'll guess the giving tree

by shelling tree by shell

silverstein i'm gonna enter that into my guess book

it's which is now computerized beep boop boop all right now

tamera i like that it makes the sounds of like a computer from star trek the next generation

oh that's just a little buzz marketing for the greatest generation another podcast on on the Maximum Fund Network hosted by Benjamin Harrison and Adam Pranica.

Now we come back to you, Aaron.

Yes, sir.

Hammer guest, The Giving Tree by Shel Silverstein.

What is your guess?

My guess would be

a black metal band by the name of Mayhem's Lyrics for the song Mother, but Mother in this case would be Satan.

So is that correct?

No, the song Mother is by Danzig.

Okay.

Okay.

Don't think I don't remember seventh grade, sir.

So what is your guess?

Is it Danzig or a different group?

The black metal band Mayhem.

Boop, boop, boop, boop, boop.

And what was the other part of your guess?

It was a very complicated guy.

It was too long.

Let's cut it down.

No, no.

Hey, don't worry.

I know that you're a top-notch editor in the film business or whatever it is you do.

But just tell me the rest of it again, because I got to enter it into the

song Mother by the black metal band Mayhem.

Hang on, I'm just by the mayhem is spelled in the traditional manner.

Correct.

Hello computer.

Hello.

Hello computer.

Sorry, I was just trying to make some transparent aluminum.

Is that from

Star Trek the search for San Francisco?

Star Trek IV, The Gang Saves the Whales.

That's right.

Okay, well, we're processing here.

Guess what?

All guesses are wrong.

Sorry, Tamara.

Your short and sweet and appropriate guess is wrong.

And Aaron,

your obviously incorrect guess is obviously incorrect.

So, I can now reveal to you that the answer was,

it was a paraphrase of a poem

by former U.S.

Poet Laureate Billy Collins called The Lanyard, which is about a kid making a lanyard at summer camp for his mom, and later reflecting upon how empty a gesture it was to give that lanyard to his mom, and yet how at the time he thought that giving that lanyard

made them even.

And when Billy Collins reads this poem, it's a really touching poem, but this is the thing that I saw when seeing him read this poem, and there are videos of him reading it, is that guy has comic chops.

This poem is really funny and sad when it is read aloud by him.

And this case involves gifts, gifts of toys specifically to children.

And that is the problem.

Is that not, Tamara?

What is the problem in your home?

Yes.

The problem isn't specifically with gifts, because I love gifts, everyone does, but it's more toys.

I disagree with you.

The Magi certainly don't.

You know who else hates gifts?

Oh, Henry.

Okay, gifts, toys.

It's just toys that don't have homes in our home.

We live in an apartment that's 700 square feet.

And how many children do you have?

Two.

And a dog who is blind.

It makes a big difference in how much they see pigs have.

Oh.

Because that's more like having a roombo.

He really is very accurate.

How old are your children?

Four and a half and one and a half.

And how, and I'm hoping that your dog is a large dog, like an Irish wolf hound.

Oh, that would be good.

No, he's medium hound.

He's a blind Irish wolf hound in a 700-foot apartment with two children.

We just wanted to start a sitcom.

Yeah, no kidding.

Yeah, that's a challenging space,

but I trust you're using it well.

But the problem in your mind is

these horrible materialistic children of yours have too many toys and you want to throw them out the window.

Is that not right, Tamara?

Well, I would say I've done most of the throwing out the window, and now it's just that stuff keeps coming, like everything has a home now, but stuff just keeps coming in from various relatives and friends and neighbors.

So, what is the crux of your dispute?

What would you have me order if I were to find in your favor?

I would request that for the year of 2017 that no gifts would come into our home.

So I don't have to.

2017, that's this year.

That's right.

Would you apply this retroactively by means of time machine?

Just throwing away all our Valentine's Day gifts?

No.

Yeah, Valentine's Day just passed here in this timeline.

People who are listening in the future probably don't even remember that it happened.

We'll talk about your Valentine's Day gifts in a moment, but Aaron, Tamara has proposed a moratorium upon all new gifts into the home.

Hang on a second, Tamara, is that just

for the children or for you guys as well?

The children are the problem.

Yeah, we don't tend to get a ton of gifts.

Yeah, no toys for children in 2017, including Hanukkah Christmas, Church of Satan regular day, or whatever you celebrate in winter's time.

Candle nights, sure.

Yeah, including that.

So you will get Aaron a present, presumably.

What do you celebrate in the Saturnalia times?

We do, yeah, a little bit, we do both.

A little bit of Christmas.

Yeah.

All right.

Yeah.

Both, the other two, the only two that matter.

That's right.

A little bit of both.

Well, Aaron, our country is founded on a Judeo-Christian tradition.

I'm starting to sound like a weird right-bard guy.

You got to counterbalance the Satanism.

You can't counterbalance Satan.

Satan, do what Satan wants.

But the point is here that you two will be allowed to give each other and to receive receive gifts.

Like if the Japanese prime minister came to visit your house and brought you an official gift on behalf of the people of Japan, you would be more than glad to accept what I assume was some sort of ancient samurai helmet.

And you would put that on your mantelpiece gladly

so that it could sit there and taunt your children.

Yeah, sure, yes.

Yes.

And thank you, by the way, Jesse, for getting me back on track and not letting me go down the road to one of my 15-minute Satan monologues.

Appreciate that.

Right.

so the moratorium would only be on toys and other gifts for the children.

You guys would be able to receive any gifts from any foreign dignitaries and each other.

Is that so, Tamara?

That's right.

I wouldn't make a big deal of giving a gift to Aaron in front of our kids.

We don't

typically do a lot of gifts to children.

What if I ordered that, though?

You would have to.

Sure.

Because that is a pretty fierce order that you are asking me to make to deny your children toys.

Aaron, I presume you are against this idea.

Tell me why.

100%.

I mean, my theory right now is that I should just give Tamra gifts that are just children's toys.

So there's a loophole already we're finding in this whole thing.

You're just giving Tamara bowling balls that say Homer, essentially.

So, yeah, so there's a loophole already.

But no.

Just when I thought I had settled on the one heteronormative married couple case where the woman was coming across as a meanie,

then you step in and you're like, Mo, Your Honor, guess what?

I've got some sick mind games I have yet to play.

I appreciate that, sir.

Have you considered alternative gifts like donations to charities?

I mean, I found that my middle child, who's now three when he was two, definitely really appreciated our support for the Audubon Society, for example.

He loves migratory birds.

Yeah.

I'm e-baying all your toys and giving the money to Planned Parenthood.

Interpret that later with your shrink when you're old enough.

I have

thought that it would be a great thing to do like memberships to museums or something instead of gifts from the grandparents.

So is the issue the grandparents

where are the gifts flowing from that you want to throw out the window?

I do think family in general.

Neighbor, we get a lot of, yeah, gifts and hand-me-downs in general from may I help her out before I crush her

argument.

I'll allow your effort.

Thank you, Judge.

Yes, so my parents are a little crazy, and they can be weird about gifts.

So this last Christmas, my father made out of two by fours raw wood, he just carved

a couple of rough

Bigfoot feet.

Oh, we are getting ahead of ourselves already.

Anyways.

Well, no, maybe this is the perfect time to enter the evidence.

Why don't you describe what your father made while I scroll down to the evidence portion of my affidavit?

He made two very large Bigfoot feet made out of wood that have handles, ropes attached to them

that are probably four or five times bigger than my children's feet, you know, so they can pretend that they can walk like a Bigfoot.

And really, the purpose was to be able to make fake Bigfoot prints in the snow.

And yet he knows we live in Los Angeles.

So maybe we need to make it in the mud.

So what we're talking about here are Aaron's dad cut out foot shapes, right?

Correct.

Bigfoot feet, and then drilled a hole in the middle of them lengthwise so that he could loop in a rope.

And then the child, presumably the four-year-old,

could put his or her feet on top of that wooden footprint and hold the rope up and then walk around and make...

Bigfoot footprints in the snow.

And thus be able to murder someone while pinning the blame on on Bigfoot.

Once again, Bigfoot is blamed.

Yeah.

So your dad made this and sent it to you?

We were home in Oregon for Christmas.

Ah, yeah.

Here's what I was going to say.

Not only am I

the most wise judge in podcasting, but I also am the world's greatest detective.

What I glean from this piece of evidence is that your dad,

and presumably mom

or stepmom or whatever, your dad lives in some place suburban enough that he can have a workshop of his own

and probably lives in the Pacific Northwest where everyone thinks about Bigfoot all the time.

Or else your dad is Lauren Coleman, the founder of the International Cryptozoology Museum in Portland, Maine, which could always use, by the way, that would be a good charity to give to in lieu of presents this year.

Could always use your help.

Very appropriate, yeah.

So your dad lives with your mom or stepmom or something or alone or what's the deal?

Yeah, my parents live together.

They've been married for more than 40 years.

And let me guess, they have more than 700 feet in their Oregon home.

They do.

They do.

Where do they live in Oregon?

Bend, Oregon.

So it's a little resort town, central Oregon.

Oh, nice.

Are they retired?

No.

They should be soon, but they're not.

Oh, okay.

Right.

So the point is, Tamara, your father-in-law just wants to create fun toys for your children, and you want to burn those Bigfoot feet right up in front of your kids' eyes.

I mean, yeah, I do, I'm glad that he shows such affection in giving gifts.

He does love to give gifts.

Sure.

Of all kinds of ones he makes and ones he finds randomly.

But our square footage allows.

Let's put a pin in the one he finds randomly.

Let's get back to that in a moment.

But finish your thought, please.

But our square footage only allows for a certain amount of storage.

So we have really specific homes for everything, bins for everything.

And

something like a giant wooden Bigfoot thing thing has just been like floating around our apartment where we've been tripping over it ever since Christmas.

Is it just the one?

No, there's two.

There's two.

There's got to be two, right?

Yeah.

That's right.

And what style are your children?

Oh, daughters.

They're both daughters?

Yes, that's right.

And does your older daughter

love her Bigfoot feet?

She She plays with them occasionally.

She doesn't know because she never saw them.

No, she does play with them occasionally.

That's actually why I haven't.

The fact that she plays with them and picks them up is why I haven't put them into the back of a closet or something.

What about the gifts that your father-in-law just finds?

What was that all about?

He really loves toy shops, so he'll find novelty toys in toy shops that aren't always small and they aren't always like things that have

a logical grouping.

Like I have a Lego bin for our daughters and a little people bin and magnetiles, wooden blocks, books, you know, like I have general things that I'm- I am really flashing back.

You are bringing back some memories.

You said mag magnetiles.

I'm like,

these people know their toys.

Those are some good toys.

Yeah, Magnetiles are really amazing.

I'm going to go ahead and budge market Magnetiles right now.

That's like one of the best toys there is.

Do you know what?

I think I heard about it from One Bad Mother.

From Teresa.

Yeah, of course.

One Bad Mother, another podcast in the Great Maximum Fun Network.

And I'll tell you what, Magnetiles.

You know, I was talking to the Mallort people when we were on very, very fun day over Chicago.

I'm still pursuing a sponsorship, but there's no reason that we can't have both malort and magnetiles uh sponsor this podcast so that we're reaching both of our demographics

we are dads and kids

okay well let's talk about the space in your home because you sent some evidence that some pictures of how cramped and well not cramped

but but how almost with small boat like efficiency you have to stow everything away

And of course, you can always find the pictures of the evidence on maximumfund.org on the Judge John Hodgman page.

And here I see evidence, a picture of playroom/slash dining room.

What I'm seeing is some, what looks like probably some

Swedish do-it-yourself brand wall unit shelving that you have done it yourself, and a fair amount of bins, and a very neat and tidy, clearly post-Valentine's Day based on the little red heart that's up there.

tableau of organization in your home in Los Angeles.

I don't see anything that's particularly out of hand here what were you trying to get across with this picture so that's how everything has one place we don't have like the luxury of just you know having like a a whole playroom where toys can go here or they can go there like if we want to eat dinner we have to make sure all the toys are put away and then we fold out our swedish do-it-yourself dining room table and then we eat dinner and then we fold it back down and the girls can have a playroom again wait a minute where does the where is the dining room table in this picture oh it's not in the picture it's behind me when i was taking the picture oh okay I thought you were trying to give me the impression that the dining room table folds out of these cupboards.

Oh, no, no, no.

Sorry.

And I was like, if you did not send me a video of that, then get off my podcast.

I want to see your Murphy dining table.

All right.

It's cramped.

Where do you live in Los Angeles?

Aaron?

I'll ask Aaron.

I'll ask you.

Studios.

Let's just talk for a little bit.

Oh, boy.

On the way over here, we were just listening to the podcast where the woman, the mother, had an accent.

So I subconsciously

just did a little accent there.

I was what was that a a Studio City accent?

Yeah, it was the natives do studio.

Well, you all know how we talk up in Studio City.

People treat it like it's like rule over here.

Right.

So you're in Studio City, which is in the hills.

The valley.

Valley.

All right.

Other side of the hills.

Right.

And you work in the film industry.

Correct.

And you have two children and a dog in a very small apartment.

Do you have any plans to expand your homestead, Aaron, in the future?

Pardon me, but are you judging my income level?

Are you asking if I should get a better job?

Or

yes, we want to move, but

yes, only one of us is working currently.

Holy moly.

Wow, that was a lot.

I really touched a nerve there, Aaron.

Yeah, sorry, dad.

Wait, I mean, Judge Hodg.

I'm just trying to get a sense of whether the compact living, I mean, your family is going to grow.

Yeah.

And whether for the foreseeable future, you're going to be living really compact or whether you're going to spread out like your dad up in Bend, Oregon someday.

But, you know, whatever.

You know, I used to work in a movie theater in Brookline, Massachusetts, called the Coolidge Corner Theater.

My favorite place to hang out was the lobby.

I think your favorite place to hang out in that movie theater would be the projection booth.

That took a long time.

I'm not even thinking I'm using the psychological term projection correctly.

But

a lot was coming off you with there, and I apologize if I touched a nerve.

What do you do in the film and television industry?

I'm a reality television show editor, so currently.

Yeah.

You're grinding it out.

Tamara, what are you doing these days?

I mean, you have two little kids, so I presume you're taking a break.

Yeah, I stay home with them, and I have a degree in elementary education, and in the fall, I will be going back to school for speech language pathology.

Oh fantastic.

And what's the name of your dog?

Griffin.

Oh.

This is a wonderful family and I'm sorry if I made Aaron feel self-conscious about where you live.

I'm afraid of the audience.

No, I apologize, Judge.

It was a harsh reaction.

Oh, no, it was cool.

I don't blame you.

Basically, I was saying,

if you want more toys, why don't you buy a bigger house?

But Aaron, I don't get the impression that you want me to order in your favor because you want a whole lot of toys.

but you just want your children to be able to receive toys from your dad.

Is that fair?

Yeah, correct.

And anybody, their whole family.

So

I grew up in a family that got a lot of gifts, or at least a few well-thought-out gifts that, you know, were significant.

You might object to well-thought-out.

It sounds like you got a specific gift in mind, Tamara.

What's going on?

I think that the consensus between Aaron and his siblings is that his parents' gifts are

not exactly what was asked for

ever.

Please

continue to get more and more specific as you go forward.

For instance,

we have asked for specific building toys or toys that go with our daughter's other toys.

And so we've asked for them or we've made Amazon wishlists or things like that.

Things will fit in.

And instead, what we do get is things like the wooden foot type thing.

But also, I mean, it's not only for us his siblings as well ask for specific things

over holidays and then receive random ones in return

so requests for specific gifts

are routinely ignored by Aaron's mom and dad

are the gifts that you receive typically

otherwise appropriate gifts?

In other words, are you getting gifts that are, for example, age inappropriate or weather inappropriate, as with these

snowfoot boot maker objects?

A little bit, yeah.

Well, our daughter, since we have two and they're both girls, they kind of go through the same toys.

So, if it's not age-inappropriate for one, eventually the other one will grow into it, or you know, eventually they will grow into them.

So, it's not as much that, but it is just space-inappropriate.

I do think that if we live somewhere like you know, a tiny apartment in Manhattan or something, then we could say, oh, listen, we have a tiny apartment in Manhattan.

Really don't give us big things.

And people would understand, like, oh, yeah, that's a place where people have tiny apartments.

But since we live in LA, I feel like people are like, you can have a room.

You can probably just go, you know, whatever, move some stuff around.

Have your family been to your house and seen the extent to which it's organized, like the underneath of the stairs in a Japanese home or something?

They've seen it.

They've stayed with us.

So it's been six people in this tiny apartment before us for half a week.

What?

Why?

Because I'm half Mexican, is that why?

What did you say?

She said, because she's half Mexican, which yes, is racist.

Well, because it was just very much my, because that does not sound shocking to me at all.

Oh, really?

Not even at all.

Okay, so it was your family.

No, no, it's Aaron's family.

But just fitting family in the small space doesn't seem strange.

You should understand that Judge John Hodgman grew up

in his own apartment inside of a larger gargantuan abandoned mansion that was owned by his parents.

That's true.

That's true.

But I've also been in some small spaces.

I know what a seven.

I've lived in a much smaller apartment and I would never invite my parents to come live with me next to the refrigerator and sleep at night.

Is it a one-bedroom, one and a half-bedroom, two-bedroom?

It's a two-bedroom.

It's just the bedrooms are on the smaller side.

Yeah.

So who came and stayed there?

Six people?

Who was it?

My parents.

Aaron has two parents and three siblings.

And at one point they've all stayed with us.

Before we had the second

baby.

Okay, wow, wow.

Very close.

And Tamara, you love your family-in-law, right?

Yes.

And Aaron, is there any hypocrisy here?

Du d does Tamara dislike the gift receipts from your family more than from her family or anything like that?

I would say

the only hypocrisy is that she loves getting gifts.

Mm-hmm.

I think we just celebrated Valentine's Day and let's hear what you what you guys do for each other.

That's one of her favorite holidays and so she loves having cards and chocolates and gifts and I bought her a nice massager for her shoulder, electric massager and then

yeah, so she she appreciates that very much.

So I think that the joy that she receives through receiving gifts,

I think she should be able to have empathy for, you know, not stealing that from our children.

I would like to note that because this is a family podcast, I have not commented at all on the Valentine's Day gift of an electric shoulder massager.

I would also like to note that I didn't comment either, and I never will.

Tamara,

are you enjoying your massager?

Does it help you get the kinks out?

Yeah, it's great.

Okay.

What did you get for Aaron for Valentine's Day?

I didn't.

I just want the audience to know.

Aaron and Tamara are in the studio with me now.

And when Judge Hodgman asked that question,

Aaron went into what I can only describe as a beastie boys style, yeah, boy pose, pointing towards Tamara, like, here it comes.

Here comes the fire.

And I would like the audience to know that as far as I can tell, that long pause after I said, what did you get, Aaron, for Valentine's Day, was not a trick of editing.

It really happened.

What's the answer to the question?

I did get him a board game that hasn't come in the mail from Amazon yet.

Which you ordered?

Yesterday.

Which was Valentine's Day.

You ordered it on Valentine's Day?

I mean, a board game?

Well, that's what he wanted.

Oh, okay.

Well, then that's romantic.

He made a specific request and you honored it.

Yeah.

What is the board game?

Pandemic.

Pandemic.

That's adorable.

That's the settlers of Catan of games that aren't settlers of Catan or Ticket to Ride.

Pandemic is a great game.

You know why I like pandemic, especially if you're parents.

A lot of chokeables.

A lot of small pieces.

You're definitely going to have to clean that up after the fact.

That's good.

You guys will have fun playing that

with

all your moms and dads and cousins and so forth.

So, Aaron, is there an issue here in terms of a differential feeling about how much clutter is actually in place?

Because that comes up a lot on this podcast, that one person sees clutter and one person doesn't see clutter.

Yes.

Do you feel like your house is clean?

It could stand to take in more toys?

Or what?

Yes.

So I am a larger man.

I'm a taller man.

I'm seven or six, two, excuse me.

And so we have low ceilings and I'm constantly walking around blind dogs and children who are trying to grab me.

And then, so I do feel it.

I do feel the same,

you know, spatial kind of claustrophobia.

But

I would gladly sacrifice some of my gifts to see joy on my children's faces, if that's what it means.

Okay.

And so, but when you look at this

image of your dining room/slash play area/slash granddad's bedroom or whatever.

It's very, very tidy at this moment.

Now, I presume that you tidied it up extra nice for sending into the podcast, Tamara, but do you feel like it is tidy enough

or too tidy and could stand to include some more Bigfoot feet?

It is perfectly tidy enough.

And the reason being is because

about a few weeks ago, my wife went through a pretty big purge of stuff.

So did she go too far?

I'm not going to say that on a podcast.

Why are you saying everything else?

Yeah, I'm saying everything else.

No, I love my wife, and honestly, everything she does for our children is amazing.

And she's probably a better parent than I am.

But I will say,

part of this whole extreme...

No more gifts for the year is kind of part of a larger, more

obsessive thing that happens once in a while.

You know,

this new year came around and she found herself staring at all this junk.

That's what she had thought.

And so she's talking about the Christmas and Hanukkah presents.

Talking about a lot of

useless toys.

And during that same time period, she visited a friend's home who was a minimalist.

And so was suddenly inspired.

to throw out a lot of our stuff, including our entertainment center, console,

probably more than half of our children's clothes, as well as a lot of toys.

So there's, you know, this is part of a larger purging of the stuff, I suppose.

Tamara, you threw out your entertainment center?

I replaced it with a smaller one.

Oh, okay.

What fueled the purge?

You saw this minimalist.

Who's your minimalist friend?

Does that person have any children or blind dogs?

No, so he doesn't have children or dogs.

But also, I think I was more inspired by I actually babysat for a friend who has two kids in a similar size apartment as we do.

And so she also has less stuff than we had at the moment.

So I would say that was more of an inspiration.

How far do you want to pare down?

Like, are you at where you want to be or do you want to go further?

No, I think we're at

a good equilibrium.

That's why I was hoping, not to throw off the equilibrium by adding more.

So, like, Erin, is there something that she threw out that you or, you know, got rid of that you wish she hadn't, aside from your beloved entertainment center?

I didn't think so, but over the weeks I've been discovering, oh, I need like a child's cup.

I can't find the lid for this kid's cup.

And she threw out every single one except for like two or three.

You know, things like that.

Or clothes for my kids.

I'm trying to dress my kids in the morning and I can't find some of the appropriate stuff.

Do your kids miss any of those toys?

No.

No?

Oh, that's actually what I wanted to say is if I can add to our children's personalities.

They, so she's four, our our oldest is four and a half, and she is at, I think, probably the last, this is probably the last moment in time that we have where she really would not realize at all if the gifts that she got for her birthday and Christmas, if they were things that were more experiential, if we were like, oh, we're going to do this fun activity for your birthday as opposed to, you know, getting a ton of gifts for your birthday.

She would not realize and she would not care.

And also, obviously, a younger one would not as well.

And I think that as she gets older, maybe I don't want her to feel other than at school.

Like, I don't want her to feel like she's the only kid who doesn't get gifts.

So, of course, I wouldn't do it if she was older and people were comparing gifts at school or something.

But for now, she definitely is not at that age yet.

Well, you know, Aaron, Tamara raises a point that there are experiential gifts, like you could take your kids to the zoo for Christmas, which you can do in Los Angeles, and then take them out to an amazing, you know, cool, fun, weird restaurant or something and have a good old time.

Why do they need the object?

I would say we spend more time at home than those experiential things are great

and those are great gifts as well.

But

yeah, we spend most of our time in our apartment at home

trying to stay busy and active and trying to figure out little games to play or little stuff to do.

So yeah,

I think it'd get more use.

than an experiential gift.

I mean, I'm talking for one year.

Why is it

if they have toys and they have toys that they like, and they don't need more toys and they don't need more Bigfoot paddles, what is it about giving them a physical thing that is more meaningful to you than giving them

a little day trip someplace?

I think for me, I

experienced a lot of kind of eye-opening things, getting gifts.

Like I was given a game as a child that led me into a hobby of like building models, and that was fun and that was a whole like creative experience that kind of

allowed me to you know get into other fields or other things that I was interested in that I wouldn't otherwise normally do and I suppose experiential gifts do that as well like maybe our kids want to become zoo keepers and we'll get them passed to the zoo or something you know so yeah that that works as well

do you think that your children would recognize experiential gifts such as passes to the zoo as gifts

I've had to think about that as well.

I'm not for certain.

No, that's.

We would have to explain it for sure.

It's not the same as getting a box wrapped with wrapping paper and you open it up and, oh, this is a surprise and this is from me.

Oh, hug.

Hey, nice joy.

Happy family.

I enjoyed that little prose poem that gave you right there.

Thank you.

Yeah, that was good.

I mean, basically, if I were to order in your favor, Tamara, you guys are going to have to sit down with your daughters and, you know, say mommy's going through a phase where she doesn't want you to have presents this year.

Are you ready to have that conversation?

I don't think that that would be necessary for the.

I don't even think that they would comprehend.

You don't think that they would notice that they didn't get to open any packages at Christmas or Hanukkah this year?

I don't think so.

All right.

We'll see.

Aaron.

I know it's early in 2017, but what do you want to get for your daughters for the holidays?

Anything you have in mind?

Maybe a drone.

Maybe a pony.

Maybe

Pandemic 2?

I haven't given it a thought.

Let me

look at white.

That's fine.

Tamara, what about while you think about that?

What about birthdays?

Do they have birthdays?

They do.

Yeah, within two days of each other.

Oh, that's fine.

So we, like this year, instead of doing a big gift thing, we did have parties, and then we also went to France.

Oh, that's nice.

For everyone's birthday, because my birthday is also in the same month.

So we, and I think she did understand that.

I think our daughter did understand that.

That that was her birthday gift.

That, yeah, we were, we called it, yeah, birthday trip.

But going forward, are you going to take her to France again?

I mean,

maybe something similar.

Maybe something a child would like.

Tell you what, she loves those croissants.

And she speaks French.

God, God, yeah.

If only you could get croissants in Los Angeles, that would be amazing.

Yeah.

Or you could get her to go along with the trip to France.

You could get her a small little token that matches the trip.

There's a little inexpensive thing like a packet of Galois, for example.

Does she speak French, really?

Yes.

Tré Bienne.

Wow-ee.

Jacques Gousteau.

You guys are awesome.

All right.

So, Aaron.

Before I go into my chambers, I'm going to ask you this.

What gift do you have in mind for either one of your daughters or both that if I find in Tamara's favor, you will not be able to give to your daughters?

What gift will be denied them if I should find in Tamara's favor?

This is a chance for you to

really

guilt trip your wife, in case you didn't get that.

Large canvases to paint on.

Large canvases to paint on.

That sounds practical in your apartment.

How large?

Enough to showcase 700 square foot showcase on our walls, on our blank walls, you know?

Tie them to the blind dog and make a sport event.

Yeah, that's what you do.

You put the canvas on the ground, and then you put paint on the foots of the blind dog, and then you let blind dog walk around, and you all have a good time.

trashing your apartment, but then you sell that canvas as a beautiful piece of blind dog art

online.

Then you move into a 3,000 square foot

home in Bend, Oregon, right next door to your dad.

I think I've got the future for you right there.

That's not the timeline you want.

I'll let it go.

But just so you know, I can make that timeline happen for you.

But in the meantime, I think I've heard everything I need to in order to make my decision.

I'm going to go into one of my many 5,000 square foot apartments that I call my chambers.

And I'll be back in a moment with my verdict.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Tamara, I got to know: when you got rid of all these toys, how did you trick your children?

She loved it.

My daughter loved the process.

She even, so you know, the what brings you joy, or does this bring you joy concept?

She would bring toys in front of her little sister and be like, Does this bring you joy?

Okay, then we'll keep it, whatever.

And then she also brought, speaking of the dog, did it for the dog.

She did a child or a segment on the today show.

She did it for the dog as well.

She picked out some dog toys that he enjoyed as well.

I thought you meant she decided whether the dog mother enjoyed.

Sorry, Buster.

You're headed to Goodwill.

Aaron, do you think that if you made a rule like this, your families would be able to follow it?

No, absolutely not.

No.

She would have to hide the gifts from the kids.

She would have to take the packages that are shipped to us and

give them to our neighbors or something.

You know, like if my children see a box, they're going to want to open it.

They get that from their mother.

So, yes.

I would not throw away a gift that they got in the middle, just to be clear.

I think that would be

listening to Judge John Hodgman.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

Of course, the Judge John Hodgman podcast, always brought to you by you, the members of maximumfun.org.

Thanks to everybody who's gone to maximumfun.org/slash join.

And you can join them by going to maximumfun.org/slash join.

The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by Made In.

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I have a little

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Joy.

I think that would bring you joy.

Well, we'll see which side of this brings Judge John Hodgman joy when we come back in just a second.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom.

So, Tamara, I just want you to know that I am with you.

I should recuse myself because I'm sitting here in my office and I'm surrounded by wonderful gifts of books and statuettes and other little things that people have sent or given me over the years.

And every one of them means so much to me, but I'm running out of room to store this stuff.

And it's hard to make a decision about what to do.

And I'm on the verge of a purge myself.

And there's a lot of stuff that I'm going to have some hard decision-making about.

Probably I'll get rid of some of my books from college.

The thing is that gifts are a gesture of affection and love, but they are also a little bit of a burden.

They're a gesture that says, I like you.

I like you so much.

I'm going to give you this homework.

The homework of unwrapping this thing and then maybe doing something with the packaging and bringing that to the recycling room and then finding some place in your life for this expression of my affection.

It's not that the expression of affection isn't appreciated, but ultimately we live in finite space and hard decisions need to be made.

Imaginary friend of the show, Mari Kondo, I say imaginary, I believe she is a real person, but I only imagine our friendship, you know, wrote that incredible science fiction book, The Everyday Magic of Tidying Up, in which you talk to every object in your house and

it tells you whether or not it's time to go.

Will say that when you receive a gift,

that the magic of it is in the actual transaction of the giving and the receiving.

And after that, the gift job is done.

And you only keep it so long as it is still meaningful to you.

And so, I admire what you're doing there, Tamara.

I admire the fact that you appreciate that your kids are young enough

to not have true sentimental attachments except to maybe a few beloved items, and that there's a lot of stuff that comes into your house from all sides when you have little kids.

You're constantly getting stuff, and people are bringing you stuff.

And that you have to get rid of some of it eventually, especially if you live in a small, challenged place and you have a blind dog running around and you got to make room for some pandemic choking cubes for your hubby.

I appreciate that you are receiving gifts from a family that does not understand your living situation and is

and they're just trying to do the best they can.

I don't think that your father means any harm.

And in fact, means the exact opposite of harm when he lovingly saws out the shape of a Bigfoot foot and puts a rope through it and gives it to your daughter.

What he does not appreciate is that she is

never going to go in the snow in her life

unless there is an unexpected deep snowfall in Paris someday when you are visiting there.

What to do with all of this stuff and the wave of stuff that comes into your home when you have kids is always a challenge.

And I think that, you know, what I would ask Judge John Hodgman listeners in general to consider as they give gifts to their friends and the children in their lives and the friends in their lives and the family in their lives is to be considerate of the receiver to some degree.

Are you giving them not only something that they want, but something that they can actually store?

That is an area in which it sounds like Aaron's family is falling down on the job.

So if you're listening, Aaron's family, if you get specific requests for gifts,

that's a good thing to do, to give the person something that they can use and like, especially if they're parents and they have kids.

Let me also remind Aaron's family that they live in essentially an Ikea cardboard box with a dog that can't see, and it's challenging for them.

And Papa, or what do your kids call your dad, Aaron?

Pepe.

Pepe!

You know,

maybe a thing you could do is make some Bigfoot feet and have them around the house at your house so the kids can play with them when they come and visit you.

Pepe.

Bear in mind, you know, the the best gift to give is the one that the person would never get for themselves,

but that's very hard to you have to know someone very, very well in order to give that kind of gift.

And children just don't know what they want at all.

So it's best to ask what the parents need and then go from there.

All of this is to say, Tamara, is that your impulse is normal.

Your house is tidy finally after your massive purge.

And I appreciate deeply why you want to keep it that way.

And the court is on your side.

But no way in a million years would I deny your children holiday and birthday presents

from their father.

I love to some degree, Tamara,

the psychological austerity that you are seeking in asking for this gift ban of 12 months.

That is like fasting for a day.

Like your whole family would go through a psychological reset

that would be, I think, profound.

But for children, I think it's just a little much to ask that they not be able to open up a little pandemic junior game from their dad or whatever it might be.

And I think, you know, with regard to his family and yours, I mean, Pepe's and what do your kids call your mother, Aaron?

Grammy.

Grammy and Pepe's of the world go bonkers.

They can't help themselves.

They've got to give stuff to those kids.

They've got to make things.

They got to do it.

And unfortunately, it's our job as adult children and parents is to accept that stuff as graciously as possible and then

make room for it for a period of time until next time a thing comes around.

So here's what I'm going to say.

I cannot find in your favor Tamara as boss and incredibly, like, it's so austere, you'd be the tilde swinton of moms if you did this.

Like, they would write books about you.

But I don't think this experiment is fair to your husband and your families.

So it's simple.

Everything that comes in, something goes out.

Maybe something of Aaron's to make room.

You know, and one thing comes in, something of that size has to go.

And Aaron, you may have to be a little bit more involved in picking the thing that's going to go.

This is the sound of a gavel.

Judge John Hodgman rules that is all.

By the way, I'm using one of the 35 gavels that have been been made for me by craftspeople all over the world.

Yeah, Judge Hodgman, I literally have a gift that I was about to send you sitting on my desk right now.

Jesse Thorne, let me say this, all right?

I want this in the podcast.

Jesse Thorne gives some of the most thoughtful gifts that I've ever received.

I just got a little miniature gavel from Jesse Thorne in the mail.

that he found at one of his many flea market trolls.

And the thing is adorable, and it's a keepsake that I love.

Here's the beautiful thing about it.

It's thoughtful.

It speaks to our relationship.

It's old.

Jesse has incredible good taste, so it looks awesome.

And it's tiny.

It's teeny tiny.

That's a thing.

I love that, Jesse.

Jesse also gave me a Hartford Whaler Zamboni tie-tack.

There's nothing that Jesse Thorne gives me that can't be sent in a teeny tiny box.

And it's usually a teeny tiny box of awesome.

Man, you're not going to gonna like this rhinoceros i bought you

does it have the hartford whalers logo tattooed on it yeah it does the only problem is it's roughly rhinoceros sized

doesn't matter if it's got that logo i want it okay great deal please rise as judge john hodgman exits the courtroom

aaron how are you feeling um I feel okay about the verdict.

I think it's fair and just and actually makes me feel like the villain when Judge John Hodgman says they could write books about you.

You could be the Tilda Swinton of moms.

And I'm gonna crush that, but it's a fair ruling.

Tamar, how do you feel?

I feel

like

I didn't realize that I was coming off as the Tilda Swinton of moms.

Majestic.

Yeah, that's a good thing.

Tilda Swinton of moms,

just, you know, just efficient, austere,

harsh, but beautiful.

Rumored to be the next doctor on Doctor Who?

Oh.

If my prayers to Satan or God or whatever are ever answered.

But go on with your feelings.

I'm sorry, Tamara, for interrupting.

Oh, but I'll do.

I'll just make do.

Aaron Tamara, thanks for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

You know, we've been doing my brother, my brother, me for 15 years.

And

maybe you stopped listening for a while, maybe you never listened.

And you're probably assuming three white guys talking for 15 years.

I know where this has ended up.

But no, no, you would be wrong.

We're as shocked as you are that we have not fallen into some sort of horrific scandal or just turned into a big crypto thing.

Yeah, you don't even really know how crypto works.

The only NFTs I'm into are naughty, funny things, which is what we talk about on my brother, my brother, and me.

We serve it up every Monday for you if you're listening.

And if not, we just leave it out back and goes rotten.

So check it out on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts.

All right, we're over 70 episodes into our show.

Let's learn everything.

So let's do a quick progress check.

Have we learned about quantum physics?

Yes, episode 59.

We haven't learned about the history of gossip yet, have we?

Yes, we have.

Same episode, actually.

Have we talked to Tom Scott about his love of roller coasters?

Episode 64.

So, how close are we to learning everything?

Bad news.

We still haven't learned everything yet.

Oh, we're ruined.

No, no, no, it's good news as well.

There is still a lot to learn.

Woo!

I'm Dr.

Ella Hubber.

I'm regular Tom Long.

I'm Caroline Roper, and on Let's Learn Everything, we learn about science and a bit of everything else too.

And although we haven't learned everything yet, I've got a pretty good feeling about this next episode.

Join us every other Thursday on Maximum Fun.

Another thrilling Judge John Hodgman podcast in the books.

Judge Hodgman, which one should we delete from our podcast feed now that that we've put this one out?

Well, it can't be a maximum fun podcast because they're all essential.

Yeah.

They're quintessential.

Ooh.

They're quinticasts.

That's what I call them.

Yeah.

I also call them that.

Jesse, I don't want you to come away thinking that I don't love your gifts.

And I'm not just saying this because it would be incredibly awkward if I didn't.

But you really are really good at giving gifts.

And I feel like books could be written about your gift-giving because you never not give one where I don't feel like there was a lot of thought in that.

Well, I try not to force it.

If something shows up, it shows up.

And the truth is, refusing gifts is not an option because gift-giving is part of the social lubricant that makes everyone feel good.

And then you just quietly

throw that rhinoceros with a Hartford Whaler's logo tattooed rather expensively on its side away.

Sorry, Rhino.

Sorry.

Sorry, Whaley the Rhino.

I mean, honestly, Jesse, why didn't you just get me a whale with a Whaler's logo tattooed on it?

Well, I don't know if you have the holding tank.

First of all, you're going to need to engineer a new material.

I recommend transparent aluminum.

What am I going to use to create transparent aluminum, a computer or something?

Hello, computer.

Hello.

Hello, computer.

Jesse, what do you have coming up in the world?

Oh, you know, the usual.

It's almost max fun drive time.

That's the main thing.

Yeah, that's a great gift that you can give.

We should have told them to give their kids donations in their names to maximum fun.

Yeah, because they love the flop house so much.

Oh, you

that was that was not a gift to me.

That was a knife in my neck.

Yeah, that's right.

The flop house is your rival podcast.

My arch rivals.

Even though I adore them and their podcasts.

Dave Schumke from Stop Podcasting Yourself filled in for me at Very Very Fun Day on Jordan Jesse Go.

And at one point,

Jordan asked him to just fill some time or something and just do what I would do.

And he just went, uh, I don't know, Carlton Fisk, Bobby Thigpen, Mark Grace.

He just named some baseball players and then went silent again.

And I was like, all too accurate.

Well, I want to say thank you to all of the listeners who came out for a very, very fun day.

It was sad.

We missed you, Jesse.

Obviously, you were home with your brand new baby and your now enormous family, and that was natural and normal.

But we all had a really good time.

It was a really amazing experience for me personally to do that QA for Judge John Hodgman and to hang out with all those listeners.

Thank you.

And thanks also to Gene Gray, who, as usual, did an amazing job as guest bailiff.

And I would just like to say, I don't have a lot coming up right now because I'm working on my book, but Jean does this amazing show, if you're in the New York area or plan to be, at Union Hall on alternate Sundays called the Church of the Infinite You.

And it's Sunday afternoon.

It is church.

There is a sermon and there is singing and there is clapping along.

I saw Kevin and Chelsea there from a previous podcast and made sure that Kevin clapped along.

Check it out.

It's every other Sunday at Union Hall, and she also does another show there called The Show Show, and you can always check her out at jeangray.bandcamp.com.

She's a really terrific person.

And I'm also going to plug another friend of the show, Mr.

John Darnell of Mountain Goats, whose novel Universal Harvester is amazing and out now from Ferrar Strauss Giroux.

And finally,

two expert witnesses on this podcast are joining me at the Solid Sound Festival in North Adams, Massachusetts

in June of 2017.

On the comedy stage, I will be joined by Eugene Merman and the wonderful Nick Offerman with more guests to come.

So I hope you will come and see us if you're going to be in Western Massachusetts anytime towards the end of June.

Check out Solid Sound on your Google and you'll find out all the details there.

Jesse, who named this case?

This week's case was named by Mike Bruni.

If you would like to name a future episode of Judge John Hodgman, be sure to like Judge John Hodgman on Facebook.

You can also follow us on Twitter at Jesse Thorne and at Hodgman.

And join the Maximum Fun group on Twitter.

We also have a Reddit group that's very active and very pleasant, unlike some Reddit groups from what I hear, maximumfun.reddit.com.

You can go there to discuss the cases and everything else going on in the maximum fun universe.

Hashtag it JJ Ho.

Judge Hodgman, if somebody has a case and they're not sure whether to submit it, they should just

turn around and walk away, right?

Yeah, they should just go walk into a lake.

No, don't.

Please don't.

Don't walk into a lake.

Dry yourself off.

Go back to your computer.

Dial up on your internet.

Maximumfund.org slash JJ Ho, because therein you will find a form.

That form will send information directly to me.

My eyes will read it.

My brain will...

comprehend it.

And we will make connection.

Even if we do not use your dispute for the show, you don't know.

Wait till my brain looks at it and then I'll know.

And even if it's not right for the show, maybe it'll be right for the New York Times magazine column net that I do every Sunday in the New York Times magazine.

Maybe it'll be right for a docket, or maybe we'll just sometime get to it down the road.

Or maybe it'll just be a chance for me to say thanks a lot, and I appreciate your listening.

I read them all, I'll enjoy them all, and

I'm very grateful for people who write in.

So please keep doing it.

Our producer is Jennifer Marmer, show part of maximumfund.org.

You can check out all our other great podcasts on on the website or wherever you listen to podcasts.

We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

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