Live From Boston, MA 2016

This week's Judge John Hodgman was recorded in front of a live audience at the Wilbur Theater in Boston, Massachusetts.

Tonight, sole custody.

Brian brings Angela to court over her shoe collection.

Brian says she has too many shoes, but they're too important to Angela to get rid of.

Who's right?

right?

Who's wrong?

Only one man can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom.

I was sad

because

I had no shoes

until I met a man

who had

no feet.

So I said,

got any shoes you're not using?

Jesse Thorne, swear them in.

Please raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God, or whatever?

Yes, I do.

Yes, me too.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling despite the fact that he refuses categorically to wear shoes of any kind?

Yes.

Yes, sure.

Very well.

Please sit.

Angela, Brian, for an immediate summary judgment in one of yours' favors, can either of you name the piece of culture or the speaker of the culture that I spoke as I walked into the courtroom?

Let's see.

Angela, you are brought here against your your will by Brian, so you can guess first, or you can ask Brian to guess first.

Which shall it be?

Brian will guess first.

Brian will guess first.

That a classic maneuver.

Brian, you must guess, and you must guess.

You cannot say, I don't know.

Some homeless people down the street, maybe.

Some homeless people

down.

That's not really popular culture.

That's it.

That's a sad tableau of urban despair.

But

we shall put it in the guess book anyway.

Angela, I think you have a really good chance to guess correctly.

If this were a game about

who was less wrong, you are already going to win.

But unfortunately, the only way to win is to be right.

So what is your guess, Angela?

Okay, a little closer to the mic, Angela.

Some crazy driver in town.

Okay.

Crazy driver in town.

Crazy driver.

Anyone missed that?

Was that a Boston-based sitcom of some kind?

I'm trying to follow the routes of not saying certain words on stage, you know.

Oh, okay.

As a matter of fact, all guesses are wrong, especially since neither of those were a piece of popular culture,

a book, a film, a movie, or an entertainer of any kind.

It was, in fact, quoting an entertainer, and people enjoyed the joke in the room, but there was not better laughter because I am not a genius like the genius of Boston-based and born-and-bred comedian Stephen Wright, who wrote that joke.

Whom I once saw at a diner when they had such things in Brookline Village when I was maybe 15 years old.

And for some reason in my pocket, I had a small

figurine of a cow from a farm set

because I was weird.

And I walked up to Stephen Wright and I said, I just want you to have this.

And he said, thank you.

And if he ever listens to this, I bet you still have my cow, Steven.

I want it back.

But since you both guessed incorrectly, we have to go ahead and hear this case.

And the case is regarding your collection of fashion shoes, Angela.

Let the record show that Angela is wearing some incredible shoes right now.

Don't encourage her.

Say it again, sir.

Don't encourage her, please.

I will decide whom I encourage.

I discourage you from discouraging me.

Sorry, Judge.

That's right.

Brian, if I may,

she's in the mile.

For those listening at home who are not here at the beautiful Wilbur Theater, or for those people in the Wilbur Theater who are on the second mezzanine and are thus five miles away.

Hello up there.

Did you get the oxygen tanks I sent you?

Angela is wearing a beautiful high-heeled, it's a combination of gossamer and glitter.

And who made those shoes, Angela?

Christian Le Boutin.

Boo.

Now look, Jesse Thorne, you are an expert in menswear of all kind.

Tom Brown.

Boom.

You got some sweet rogues on, that's for sure.

Thank you.

But even I, an expert in no clothes, knows Christian Le Boutin is pretty good, right?

That's good.

Yeah, that's top quality.

And they really are beautiful shoes.

They really, I'm not someone who gets into shoes that much.

I don't notice them, but I notice these.

And the dispute here is that you have too many shoes, according to your boyfriend, husband?

I missed it.

Husband.

Husband.

And

how many shoes do you have?

How many pairs of shoes do you have?

Would you estimate?

Hughes, I think I close off 300 pairs of hughes.

I'd say that's accurate.

And that's only heels.

So, high heels.

Sneakers, trainers, plimsols?

No, none of those things.

Low shoes.

Does that land shake indicate that you have none of those types of shoes

I'm just picking picturing you at spinning class right now

I do have them but they are not really important to being counted you know they don't

that's a that's a little shoe racist if you ask me

so we're talking about 300 pair of high heels alone, right?

And

that is your collection.

Does that give you happiness or are you subject to some strange obsession that you can't control?

It makes me happy when I think about them every night before I go to bed.

Do you have to think about each pair before you are going to go to bed?

Do you have to say good night to them?

I love you.

I love you.

I love you.

I love you.

I love you.

I'm coming, Brian.

I love you.

I love you.

I love you.

I love you.

I love you.

I love you.

I say hello to them once in a while.

Do they live somewhere else?

Do you have a storage locker somewhere?

Where are they kept?

No, they just live right next to me to my bed.

Where do you guys live here in Boston?

Wait, right next to your bed or right next to you in your bed.

I have my true love on my right side, and then I have my 300 other loves on my left side.

Your Your 300 secret lovers.

Do you have a closet or are they just piled up in

a sparkly pile?

They're in a shelf.

We basically, our bedroom is essentially a closet.

Ryan, I believe you submitted some evidence to this court, some visual evidence.

I did.

May we see that piece of evidence and enter it into the deliberations?

Now, I'm hearing a number of people

spontaneously applauding in admiration.

Let the record show that the image shows shelves and shelves of very, very beautiful and I would say well-curated high heels.

What is the pride of your collection?

The ones you're wearing now or is there another pair that you feel really excited about?

There's this other pair that I recently acquired.

Hunt track down is more of the terms.

It came out in 2013 and it took me a while, twenty sixteen,

August twenty-second to finally bought them.

So you had been hunting three years for this pair of shoes.

Yeah.

Do you plan to celebrate that anniversary each year in the future?

Maybe I'll take them out for a spin.

Ha yeah, do you have you worn them?

Um, yes.

Okay.

And why was it so hard to find them?

Um, I saved up for my shoes.

I don't just see something and then I spent my money.

I do think about them for three years before I purchased them.

What was the criteria that led you to choose these shoes?

It just stands out to me.

It's very unique.

And I guess after three years,

I'm still thinking about them, so I'm like, track them down.

Angela, can you describe this pair of what in the sneakerhead community are called grail sneaks?

It's by Renee

Calvila.

They have glitter so

and it's swasky, gold swasky.

And then we have, it almost looks like a tuxedo here.

A tuxedo?

Oh, wow.

And how much did they cost?

Retail was $1,600 plus tax.

Let the audio record show that Judge John Hodgman painted in amazement.

Retail $1,600.

And but you paid

$32.

No, I actually paid

$945 for that.

That's a bargain.

And you saved up for it.

You saved up your money to buy these things?

No.

You're under oath.

Yeah, you're under fake oath.

No, I guess part of me waited for three years because I wasn't having a budget back then, and I've been keeping tab on Dumb and then realized that it

came on sale.

And then I'm like, okay, I guess now I have a job, not in college anymore, I would be able to spurge.

What is your job?

And

when were you in college and how many of your shoes did you purchase before you had a job?

And

bear in mind that shoe hoarding is not a job.

Actually, it is.

It could be.

When I was in college, I'm actually a blogger, so a lot of shoes.

I do get paid by shoes.

You get paid in shoes?

There are stores

who send me shoes to to have me wear them and feature it on my blog or on my Instagram.

It's called craft.

Yes.

You understand what's happening here?

These shoe companies are using you and your blog.

And you're like, yes, please.

Spoken like a guy who did not accept cases and cases of Irish whiskey for free when he wrote about Whiskey for a Men's Journal.

By the way, Red Breast is still the best.

Brian, how long have you guys been married?

We've been married since January 11th of 2015.

Well, and how long have you known each other before that?

We met

in college, I think it was 2011.

And what college did you go to?

High Fashion College for Cobblers?

No.

We both attended the.

The University of a Pile of Shoes?

In Shoe Pile, Pennsylvania.

It's a nice little liberal arts school.

It's great.

It's actually got quite a music scene.

Yeah.

A lot of shoe caves.

Don't applaud that.

Boo that.

That was an amazing joke.

I'll see you guys later.

I just want to contemplate that joke while looking at my shoes.

All right, what college?

Rensselaer Polytechnic.

Rensselaer Polytechnic.

And

what did you study there at Rensselaer?

I studied computer science.

Computer science.

And Angela studied nuclear engineering.

She has a master's degree.

She has a master's degree in nuclear engineering.

And is that the field you're working in now?

No.

Okay.

What is the field you're working in now?

I'm actually in retail at Cape Spay, New York.

Okay.

And Brian, when you said she has a degree in nuclear engineering, you almost expressed a kind of sneering disdain.

Not for nuclear engineering, but for the fact that she had such an advanced degree, but instead was buying a lot of shoes.

Like those two things can't go together.

Do I represent you accurately there?

Did I hear a sneer, sir?

Is that a sneer here?

Yeah, I would say yes.

Yeah.

Do you feel that you were supposed to marry a nuclear engineer and now she's working in Kate Spade with a lot of shoes, and you're like, what went wrong?

Well, when we first met, she was taking me out to dinner quite often.

Right.

And now the shoe is on the other foot.

Oh!

Now,

just I need to consult with my bailiff for sale.

Now, obviously, objectively, that was a terrible joke.

Yeah.

Right?

Whereas your saying that the bands in Shoe Pile, Pennsylvania play a lot of shoegaze is a beautiful joke.

But there's a certain level of esoterica to that joke.

And it only reached a certain, it reached the audience that it was meant for and them alone, much like this podcast.

Whereas Brian

knows a joke that's going to go over, gonna reach all four quadrants.

Do you know what I'm saying?

Well, Brian is actually gonna be here next week.

Opening for Dave Coolyak.

Yeah, yeah.

And by next year, he's gonna have five shows in a row here.

He's gonna sell them out with the incredible shoe humor

of Brian, the computer scientist.

It was a good job.

I'm just saying it landed.

That's what I'm saying.

And you obviously have been working on it for days, and I'm grateful to you.

Well done.

Brian,

what do you work in now?

But do you have a job?

Yes, I'm a software developer.

A software developer?

It seems like you probably make pretty good money.

You could take her out to dinner, as it were.

Oh, yeah.

And when was she...

Do you have anything that you like, like shoes?

How many pairs of shoes do you own?

I'd say I own maybe

ten pairs of shoes.

Nine.

Nine.

In your opinion, Angela, is that not enough shoes for Brian, or is that about the right amount?

He could have more.

Yeah.

Yeah.

What is the objection, Brian, to the shoe collection?

It just seems a little excessive to me.

And Angela, being a tastemaker, I think it's it's in poor taste.

Well,

but if she is pursuing a career in tastemaking, shoe blogging, isn't this just part of the trade?

It's a part I don't really agree with.

Well, I'd like to get to the bottom of it.

Why don't you agree with it?

Do you feel that it is

shameful excess?

Do you feel that it's costing you both too much money?

Do you feel that shoes are terrible and we should all be barefoot?

Well, I mean, you.

A.A.

the the UC Santa Cruz defense.

Sorry, guys, the Hampshire College defense.

Thank you.

Thank you.

See, Jesse, now you're getting it.

Yeah.

Hit them where they live.

I mean, you only have one pair of feet, right?

So

why do you need so many pairs of heels?

Brian, I think you're a very lucky man.

I mean, wouldn't you agree?

I do, yeah.

I need, but before I can rule one way or the other, I need to hear a real,

as honest an argument as you can make as to why you would deny something that obviously brings Angela happiness.

And let me give you an example of what arguments are.

All right.

Okay.

We can't afford this.

It takes up too much space.

I think that it is mentally unhealthy.

I want my wife to be unhappy.

Some kind of affirmative argument that explains why this is a bad idea.

Or it makes me unhappy because.

And then

you talk about your dumb feelings there.

Get in there.

Let's get deep.

I think it's mainly the first two points that you brought up.

We live in a small apartment.

It's a one-bedroom.

We just got a dog.

What's the name of the dog?

Shoebox.

Shoebox.

His name is Milo, and he has never once chewed a pair of shoes.

Oh, wow.

He gets it.

What kind of dog is he?

He's a mix.

A mix, good.

Angela, I'm surprised you allow a dog in your house.

Yeah.

I told him the day when he came home, if you chew my shoes, you're going straight back to the shelter.

Angela knows how to win in court.

Threaten a puppy.

Fine for me or the dog gets it.

Yeah, and I mean there's just not a lot of room in our house.

I recently,

well, in the past year, I had to get rid of my drum set because that was taking up too much room.

Oh,

I see.

I think we found that this is

a crux of vendetta.

Why did you have to get rid of your drum sets?

Because of spacing.

What or who compelled you?

Well, there wasn't enough.

I had just built the

first

iteration of the shoe shelf that you see behind you.

You built that yourself?

Oh, yeah, yeah.

Oh, well done.

Well, from Ikea pieces.

Technically, I hired a guy on Craigslist to put it together from

because.

Look, honey, I built you a television by buying it.

You constructed a shoe shelf.

Yes, that's right.

Well, when did you get rid of your drum set?

It was in our last apartment when we were living in Jamaica Plain.

And now you live?

With roommates.

We live now in Brighton, near the Chestnut Hill Reservoir.

Right, okay.

We'll all come home and visit later.

Thank you for giving us those directions.

Everyone's welcome.

And you're out on your own for the very first time together as a married couple, right?

No?

Yes?

Okay.

Okay, good.

Yes?

No?

Okay, yes.

Right.

Correct.

Okay, yeah.

All right.

Okay.

Got it.

And you made a sacrifice.

Yes.

Your drum set.

Mm-hmm.

You love playing the drums?

I do.

Are you good at it?

Pretty good.

Who's your favorite drummer, Neil Purt?

When I was younger, I went to a Rush concert.

I think that was the first concert my parents ever took me to.

Really?

Yeah, yeah.

You have extremely generous parents.

Yeah, yeah.

Well, you could sit down, you know, it's not like...

Right.

Yeah, there were seats.

Right.

But you still had to listen to Rush.

I'm just saying maybe his parents weren't into it.

That's all.

I think the point here is that whether you're standing or sitting, you're listening to a song about a war between the trees.

How long do you play drums for?

I've played drums since I was about 10 years old.

Wow.

And what is is your age now, did you say?

I'm 26.

26, and now you don't play at all?

No.

Wow.

Do you feel the arc of justice bending towards you?

Sympathetically?

I hope so.

It's hard to be sympathetic to a drummer, you know.

I think that's a t-shirt.

I think that's a t-shirt right there.

Well said, I don't think I've ever met as eloquent a drummer.

I've learned to keep quiet.

Angela, did you make him get rid of his drums?

No.

Well, I'll remind you of your under oath.

Oh, no.

Would it be okay for him to have a drum set in the apartment if it meant you could keep your shoes?

Yeah, if he can fit it in.

I mean, there is room.

First, he actually suggested, I'll get rid of my drums.

I'm like, why?

And he's like, there's no room.

I'm like, okay.

Were you trying to convince her by your passive-aggressive sacrifice that she should make one?

I was trying to lead by example, Your Honor.

Where are your drums now, or did you hawk them?

Yes,

some guy bought them from me on Craigslist.

This is a sad story.

He gave me a t-shirt, though.

I don't have it anymore, though.

I can't remember what it said either.

This went from being a simple, sad story story to a weird Raymond Carver story.

He was pretty psyched.

Well, what would you have me order if I were to rule in your favor, now that you have gained the court's sympathy?

I would like, at the very least,

a one-in-one-out policy, whereby.

One pair in, one pair out.

Exactly.

I gotcha.

Angela, why is that not reasonable?

Okay.

In our house, he has two guitars or bass or something in that shape sitting there.

Ask him when was the last time he touched them.

Wait, you're not answering my question.

So here's the thing.

I wear my 300 pair of shoes.

I rotate them.

They actually get used.

There are things that he stores in the house.

Per year each.

That just sit there and got dust up.

You're saying that because he has a guitar and a bass that he never plays,

that I should throw this case out.

Or he can't sell them again.

Make more room for shoes.

You are merciless, aren't you, Africa?

Do you love your shoes more than your husband?

No.

I'll leave.

If you left, it'd be more room for shoes.

I have a feeling if you walked out right now, I'd turn around, next thing I know, that stool will be piled with shoes.

Angela, I kind of feel like at this point the question is, how much could you get for Brian on Craig's Lunch?

Hopefully more than I got for the drum set.

Do you worry that Angela

loves shoes more than you, Brian?

Maybe a little bit, yeah.

Let's see.

Angela, 300 shoes.

Is that not enough or just about right?

Just about right.

Just about right?

Yeah.

And so are you against the one-in-one-out policy?

Yes.

Is there a maximum number that you...

No.

Can you afford a storage space?

I think we could.

No.

I think that there is a certain amount of financial consideration here, and I hate to ask such questions, but is it fair to say that Brian makes more than you at this time in your marriage?

Sure.

Okay.

And do you think that you will make more money in the future as a tastemaker and a shoe blogger?

Do you anticipate doing that, or do you think it's...

No, I don't anticipate doing that.

So it's just going to be the same.

Is your plan to hawk nuclear secrets to our enemies abroad?

No.

Ryan, can you do you think,

would you feel more comfortable if there were a storage space where the shoes could live and she could have access to them when she wants?

It's sort of like a pied dotter where she visits her lover from time to time.

I suppose so.

I I'd prefer if we just big moved into a larger apartment, you know.

When she was taking me out to dinner all the time back in college, I sort of anticipated that we'd be living in a nicer place than we are now.

So you married her for the dinner all the time.

Did she have more money than you during college?

Is that what you're implying?

Yeah, that's right.

And now, does she not have that money anymore because it all went into shoes?

And you're mad because you don't get a lot of free dinners?

She doesn't have access to her parents' credit card anymore.

I think I've heard everything I need to.

I'm going to,

Ladies and gentlemen, please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Thank you.

You may be seated.

Brian, how do you feel about your chances in the case?

I feel pretty good.

I think the sob story about my drum set and

playing second fiddle to a pile of shoes is pretty compelling.

Angela, would you say that it's pretty reasonable for a grown man to have about 40 or 50 pairs of shoes?

And if you could address this to Teresa Thorne.

Why not?

You know,

when you put on the suit and you don't have

a decent pair of shoes to put on to your friend's wedding, I think you need to shop for more.

What if you have like eight or ten decent pairs pairs of shoes for a friend's wedding?

But you probably need 15 or 20, right?

I think that's my perspective on it.

I don't know.

Well, we'll see what Judge John Hodgman has to say about all of this.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom.

You may be seated.

I've been thinking about this a lot because

Angela clearly has a passion.

And you like what you like is one of the strongest precepts of this fake internet court.

And not only does she like what she likes, but she likes beautiful things.

I mean, the shoes, I am not a person who normally appreciates women's shoes, but every one of these up here, as far as I can tell, is a winner.

Are people out there who like shoes think I'm correct?

And, you know, it is challenging in a marriage when someone has a passion that is so powerful and so non-remunerative

and yet so deep and personal to them to not feel that perhaps they love that thing more than you.

And if you lose sight of the fact that they do love you and start to worry too much about the passion that they have, whether that is a job or a hobby or whatever it is, they will, I'll say it, love you less.

And yet,

as much as I feel, Angela, that your taste is impeccable and your passion is

pure and sincere,

and I think the fact that you have given up what might have been a lucrative career as a nuclear engineer, I mean, is there money in that?

I don't know, is there?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, there's money in that.

Ask Mr.

Jimmy Carter.

In order to work in the world of fashion and be a retail associate at Kate Spade and buy as many shoes as you can, right?

You have to offer some consideration to the fact that even though he did it in a rather passive-aggressive way, Brian gave up his drum kit and

is funding this whole operation, more or less, wouldn't you say?

Can you afford all these shoes if you were by yourself in the world?

He doesn't pay for any of these.

Well, you guys share money now.

You understand that, right?

That's what being married is.

That's why it's such a goddamn drag.

Because you take a romantic relationship and turn it into a business partnership.

And I don't want to preside over a courtroom

in a world where I would ever say, stop spending your spouse's money on something frivolous.

But you guys do share finances, right?

And

this is not an inexpensive hobby that you have chosen.

And you have also said that you do not intend to transform your hobby into a lucrative career in the future.

Do I have all that correct?

Yeah.

All right.

So I do, even though I feel that Brian

needs to be very careful about how he perceives your hobby and develop an affection and appreciation for this part of the woman that he loves and has married because it's never going away.

It's always going to be a part of your lives together.

You're never going to get rid of the shoes, Brian.

No matter, you could look, you gave up your drums, the shoes stay.

You give up your bass, the shoes will be there.

You give up your guitar, the shoes will keep coming.

It's like a weird giving tree.

At the end of the day, if you just keep giving up stuff, hoping that she's going to change, you're going to be a stump in the woods and she's going to sit down on you and try on some damn shoes.

So

I am going to find with certain clear caveats in Brian's favor in that

and the the reason for it isn't that he's making more money at this time or you're out of control with the shoes because I don't think you're out of control with the shoes I think you think very carefully about the money that you spend on them and they're worth every penny

pennies in aggregates of thousands of dollars

to you

Because those financial fortunes may change and shift and you may get a bigger place or you may have to move to a smaller place and make changes down the road.

No, the reason I am going to order a limit on the number of shoes you may own at any given time is that 300 is a terrible number.

It's just not cool.

It's just, there's no aesthetic to it.

And

you are too aesthetically awesome to be stuck with a dumb number like 300.

You don't want a number of shoes that corresponds to a movie about Spartans.

And the solution to me became clear the moment that Jesse Thorne said, about a shoe for each day of the year.

About a shoe for each day of the year is not good enough.

A pair of shoes for each day of the year.

No.

You have to create appropriate storage and budget to accumulate another 65 pairs of shoes.

Wait, wait.

66 for leap year.

One pair for every day of the year is enough.

And then, thereafter, you're going to have to learn to say goodbye to some shoes as you acquire more, because it'll be one in and one out thereafter.

That is my ruling.

This is the sound of half a gabble.

Judge Sean Hodgkin rules, that is all.

Brian and Angela, ladies and gentlemen.

Thank you, Brian and Angela.

Judge Hodgman, having considered the future of that couple, and let's be honest, my personal future.

Yes.

Also, 365 pairs of shoes for you, Jesse.

Yes.

You're all getting a year's worth of shoes.

I'm not giving it to you.

You're paying for it yourself.

I think it's time to do something fresh and new.

We actually have a guest on this show.

That's right.

I think it's fair to say that we are both so thrilled to welcome our musical guest this evening.

She is one of my heroes, and I could not believe when she agreed to do the show.

You know her from the Blake Babies.

You know her from the Juliana Hatfield 3.

And most recently, she's formed a new band with Paul Westerberg called the I Don't Cares and their new album,

the

excuse me, what's the name of the album?

Wild Stab.

Wild Stab, sorry.

More recently, she's formed a band with Paul Westerberg called The I Don't Cares, and her album,

Wild Stab, has just come out.

Please welcome Juliana Hatfield.

Hello, Boston

The couch is an island

A desert oasis

The room is a spaceship

And you're an undiscovered

planet

I push the hair out of my eyes

I pull the blanket around me.

I bite my nails, scratch my shoulder.

I peel the label off the

bottle

and tear it into tiny pieces.

I don't know what to do

with my hands.

I don't know what to do

with my hands.

Maybe the phone will ring

And then I'll get to answer it

A momentary distraction

I can't predict your reaction to my touch I could sit here all night

Our knees almost touching

But not

ever

quite

I don't know what to do

with my hands

I don't know what to do

with my hands.

I don't know what to do

with my hands.

I don't know what to do

with my hands.

I can't decide on a channel.

I'm just flipping around.

Maybe you can't choose.

Maybe some kind of monster.

Maybe I just don't don't know

how to

reach out,

reach out.

I don't know what to do

with my hands.

I don't know what to do

with my hands.

I don't know what to do with my hands.

I don't know what to do

with my hands.

I kind of wanted to stay this way.

No wrong moves, no mistakes.

Nothing lost, nothing broken like a boat on a windless ocean.

I kind of wanted to stay this way.

No wrong moves, no mistakes.

Nothing lost, nothing broken like a boat on a windless ocean.

I don't know what to do

I don't know what to do

I don't know what to do

I don't know what to do

Thanks.

Juliana Hatfield, ladies and gentlemen.

Hello, I'm your Judge John Hodgman.

The Judge John Hodgman podcast is brought to you every week by you, our members, of course.

Thank you so much for your support of this podcast and all of your favorite podcasts at maximumfund.org, and they are all your favorites.

If you want to join the many member supporters of this podcast and this network, boy, oh boy, that would be fantastic.

Just go to maximumfund.org slash join.

The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by Made In.

Let me ask you a question.

Did you know that most of the dishes served at Tom Clicchio's craft restaurant are made in, made in pots and pans?

It's true.

The braised short ribs, made in, made in.

The Rohan Duck Riders of Rohan, Made In, Made In.

That heritage pork chop that you love so much, you got it.

It was made in, made in.

But Made In isn't just for professional chefs.

It's for home cooks too.

And even some of your favorite celebratory dishes can be amplified with Made In cookware.

It's the stuff that professional chefs use, but because it is sold directly to you, it's a lot more affordable

than some of the other high-end brands.

We're both big fans of the carbon steel.

I have a little

carbon steel skillet that my mother-in-law loves to use because cast iron is too heavy for her, but she wants that non-stick.

And I know that she can, you know, she can heat that thing up hot if she wants to use it hot.

She can use it to braise if she wants to use it to braise.

It's an immensely useful piece of kitchen toolery.

And it will last a long time.

And whether it's griddles or pots and pans or knives or glassware or tableware, I mean, you know, Jesse, I'm sad to be leaving Maine soon, but I am very, very happy to be getting back to my beloved made-in entree bowls.

All of it is incredibly solid, beautiful, functional, and as you point out, a lot more affordable.

because they sell it directly to you.

If you want to take your cooking to the next level, remember what so many great dishes on menus all around the world have in common.

They're made in, made in.

For full details, visit madeincookware.com.

That's M-A-D-E-I-N Cookware.com.

Let them know Jesse and John sent you.

We actually,

Judge Hodgman, have some old friends of the show here tonight.

And I thought we might catch up with them.

Do you remember Kara and Colin from episode 208, Sunrise Upset?

I do remember them because I have some notes right here.

As I recall, off the top of my head, Kara brought her husband Colin to court because she wanted him to give up his obsession with waking up with the sun every day.

And I ruled that he could continue doing it since he would soon move to Boston and take up a teacher's schedule, which means waking up before the sun.

So why don't we have Karen Colin out here to find out what happened?

Karen Colin?

Karen Colin, ladies and gentlemen.

Kara and Colin.

Hi, Kara.

Hi, Colin.

Hi, Josh Hushman.

It's nice to meet you both in person.

You're exactly as I pictured you, although, Colin, I thought you would be wearing

a British Bobby's hat for some reason.

But here you are.

How did it go, Kara?

Well, he only does the sunrise alarm recreationally now, so I said we're on a good run.

Explain to me again, Colin, why you wanted to wake up every day with the sun?

I wanted to resonate with the spheres, and

I wanted the magnets and the orbits to

link up to my schedule.

No, you're weirder than I remember.

How long did your experiment go

where you were waking up with sunrise every morning?

So I started in, it was probably around February of 2015, because remember it was Chinese New Year and so I started.

I was waking up every morning and then every morning I was waking up earlier and earlier and earlier and earlier and then we moved

back to Boston from Taipei and I did it for about a week and then I realized that I didn't I shouldn't do it anymore because I was on vacation and I didn't need to wake up that early.

But then and then when you know when the school year started back up, I was waking up at five o'clock to go to work and that was before the sun came up and it was

pretty dreary and grim.

But now, oh, but then toward the end of the school year, in April, I started realizing that I could wake up at like 5:46 and still get to work on time.

So then I started waking up earlier and earlier and earlier.

And then summer vacation happened, and then I was waking up earlier and earlier and earlier.

Well, then, but then another answer.

Oh, I got it.

I got it.

I got it.

I got it.

Finally, July has come.

You have this all written down in a log somewhere, I presume?

Maybe etched in your own blood?

Well, I mean, it's the alarm on my phone.

I have it in my phone right now.

This morning I woke up at 6.28 because it's Sunday.

I didn't have to go to work.

So, and that was sunrise today?

Yeah, today was 6.28, yeah.

On the East Coast, in Boston, Massachusetts.

Kara, do you need any help?

Lots.

Yeah.

Karen Collin, we're about to move into a segment which we call Swift Justice, where we're going to adjudicate a bunch of cases in a very short period of time.

Do you happen to have any new disputes that we could settle for you right here, right now?

There is one thing.

Oh, good.

So recently, Colin bought a jaw harp, and

that's the twangy thing.

that.

The thing about a jaw harp is you don't need one to make those noises.

That, of course, is not to be confused with tube and throat singing which goes.

I thought we had a thing.

These and the didgeridoo are the official instruments of my college town of Santa Cruz, California.

All right, so I almost don't need you to elaborate on your dispute.

Simply saying my husband bought a jaw harp is usually enough to give me a sense of what the problem is.

There's a jaw harp in your life.

But why don't you just go on a little further and let me know how it bothers you?

Sure.

So he's practiced a couple times, and I think practicing sounds the same as playing.

But he's brought it out unprompted once already when we had friends over.

And I'd like an injunction preventing.

What would would the prompt sound like

hey

dinner looks great do you have anything that goes wrong wrong rom wrong

what would you like for the injunction

not bringing the jaw harp out unprompted and also not goading anyone into telling him to bring out the jaw harp

Colin

Let the record show

that I silently prompted

and I was not goaded.

So you have permission to perform.

You know, Judge, I'm still

a bit of a novice.

You know,

I don't practice that often.

That's fine.

That makes it.

Let the record show that it is a Snoopy brand jaw harp.

Snoopy's harp, featured in the motion picture, a boy named Charlie Brown, an early Charlie Brown cartoon that I don't think has been aired for 25 years.

And

where did you find this at a music store?

Maybe I'm allowed to buzz market the

Mr.

Music in Alston.

I got it right there.

Mr.

Music in Alston.

Latest.

Was it hard to decide between Snoopy's harp and Popeye's washboard?

I walked in there and I went up to the, well, first I, you know, I kind of cased the store a little bit and I walked up to the register and I asked the man behind the register, I said,

hey man, do you guys sell jaw harps?

And he said, yeah.

And it was actually right next to the register, so it was very convenient.

Why are you out looking for a jaw harp unprompted?

We had gone to the Museum of Fine Arts

I think the Friday beforehand.

This is back in August.

And they had had an exact.

I don't need to know the exact dates.

You went to the Museum of Fine Arts and you saw something there.

What did you see?

A cha harps judge.

I'm still working on it, you know, I got it.

I like it.

That was the modern love of song, Government Center.

I don't know.

I like how you find your passions.

I like how you follow them with diligence and enthusiasm,

even

sometimes to the detriment of the people around you.

And I suspect that on some level, Kara also likes and loves that about you, too.

And I think that I'm excited that you saw a jaw harp one day and it brought you to this stage.

Now you're playing in front of 1100 people.

That's a meteoric rise in the jaw harp world.

And I order you to practice, practice, practice.

Do not, but the thing about a jaw harp is you cannot play that thing until you're about to change someone's mind about what they think about the jaw harp.

Like until you're so good, they're going to be like, wow.

I'm sorry I ever said that about the jaw harp.

You're amazing.

And with all fairness, you're not there yet.

So keep

doing great.

Keep getting up early

and practice.

Practice, practice, practice.

And you cannot bring the jaw harp out at a dinner until Cara agrees that your

guests are going to be

blown away and will not run away.

Such is my ruling.

Judge Hodgman, are you ready for swift justice?

Yes, we got a lot of cases.

We're going to adjudicate them swiftly.

I'm setting a timer for 10 minutes.

So let's get going.

10 minutes begins.

Let's start with Evan and Kristen.

Evan and Kristen to the stage.

Please sit down.

Kristen, what is your dispute?

Actually, I have the dispute.

Okay.

Hi.

So,

my dispute is that Kristen has been playing Pokemon Go while we are out to dinner with my parents.

And I would like her to not play Pokemon Go, or preferably not any phone game, while out to dinner with my parents.

Kristen,

what have you got?

What'd you get?

What'd you capture?

I'm at like, I have like 120 of them.

Are you good?

Is that good or bad?

It's pretty good.

Is it so good that

you have to keep playing in contrary to all social norms and basic?

Oh, yeah, absolutely.

Okay.

Why do you want to play Pokemon Go instead of talk to

your friend's parents?

Are you guys married?

Engaged.

Engaged.

Oh, well, now's not the time to make a good impression.

Well, they already like me.

All right, so it's already in the bag, so you can just.

Kristen, why are you doing this?

Why don't you just put it down and have a nice dinner?

I generally don't eat a lot of food, and they are also.

High finding

don't have a lot of the same topics like him and his dad and his brother talk about

a lot of things that I have tried to become a part of the conversation, but you feel excluded.

I get shut out.

Then, what are you and your dad and your brother talking about?

The band the pigsies, which Kristen doesn't like.

Oh, that's rude.

Wow.

That's not true.

Okay, this is.

Does she also hate Doctor Who?

There may be a rise.

Kristen,

you know who was in the audience at my show yesterday in Turner's Falls, Massachusetts?

Who's that?

Black Francis.

That's bonkers.

I know.

Isn't it?

Evan, you and me, right?

Let's talk about that with your dad and your brother a little bit.

It's crazy, right?

It's crazy.

New album is great, too.

I think it's fantastic.

How do you think?

Yeah, all right.

Yeah, this is like definitely the most bonkers thing that has happened to us on tour until we do the San Francisco show and rap and forte comes.

All right.

Sorry.

Players Club?

Yeah.

That's my Black Francis.

Fair enough, shoegaze.

Anyway.

Yeah, you can't play video games at the table even if you hate the Pixies, and especially if you hate the Pixies.

I don't hate the Pixies.

All right, well, still I find in Evan's favor.

Sorry, Kristen.

Lisa and Andy, please come up to the stage.

Lisa and Andy.

Hi, Lisa and Andy.

Brought your own cheering section.

What's your dispute?

By the way, I don't think people on the podcast can hear the wonderful array of shoulder tattoos that I've been

enjoying.

It's been a one, two, three for all the past three litigants who have bared their shoulders.

It's a beautiful tattoo.

Thank you so much.

So do you have any tattoos?

I do not.

I see.

Well, all right, I find in your wife's favorite.

Oh, God.

Are you married?

No.

He's my brother.

He's He's your brother?

Well then no, I will not marry.

I don't know why.

What is the nature of your dispute?

Your Honor, my brother and I are training to run the Boston half marathon, which is in just a couple weeks.

And we actually ran a half marathon together in June.

And in between that time and this time, we decided that we would do a little bit more intensive training so that we can improve our time.

and we check in with each other pretty frequently about it and each time he keeps telling me I need to run on the treadmill more.

I always will run outside as my first option unless I really have to run on the treadmill.

I do run on the treadmill pretty frequently, especially when the summer it was really hot here in Boston.

But it's getting really annoying.

The treadmill is a great tool.

It's something I use, but I know I've been running just as long, if not longer, than my brother.

And if I choose to run outside, I think that is valid.

And they're just, you can't train exclusively on a treadmill.

Lisa, I get it.

You want to move through the world and experience it.

You don't want to run on a wheel like a rodent.

Thank you.

So, brother, Andy,

why are you telling her to do something when she doesn't want to do it?

Well, because...

Really, she's becoming more of like a running hipster at this point.

She just wants to have the like authentic experience of running all the time, which I listen, there's nothing wrong with it.

Running in Boston is fantastic.

I really enjoy it.

I thought we had reached the nadir of the meaninglessness of the word hipster.

Until I heard that she's a running hipster.

All your arguments mean nothing.

You're asking her to do something she doesn't want to do.

Why are you telling her that she has to do this?

Well, because when we have these discussions about how her running is going, it's often, you're from the Commonwealth.

You know that it's very hot in the summer and it's cold in the winter, and it's not always doable to run outside.

Is the half marathon held on treadmills?

It's just a series of treadmills.

What training benefit does she get from treadmills that is better than the training benefit she gets from running outside?

Completing a run, because she will often say, Oh, I tried to go running, but it was too hot.

Well, it's like 100 degrees out.

Yeah, you can actually do a run on a treadmill because it's room temperature.

Let me ask you, maybe I don't understand what a half marathon is.

Is a half marathon a full marathon, but one of you carries the other one half the time?

Pretty much.

It's a relay, yeah.

Yeah, well, I don't, is it a relay?

No, no.

No, right?

It's, it's, you guys are each running your own race, correct?

Correct.

Yeah.

Each one of you runs your own race.

You know how to decide this?

Beat him in the race.

Train however you want to.

Thank you, Jack.

Okay, that is all.

Charlie and Zach, please.

Charlie and Zach, do you have any shoulder tattoos that I should be aware of?

Unfortunately, no.

I'm sorry I was not told to prepare.

What are your ages?

You both seem like young people.

19.

19.

Also 19.

19.

You know, when I was 19 years old, I couldn't get a tattoo in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts.

I had to go to Portsmouth, New Hampshire.

You guys have all seen my dumb prison tattoo, right?

Sorry.

It's a diamond.

It's a diamond.

If you can't believe it, I designed it myself.

It's an homage to a story, Death in the Compass, by Jorge Luis Borges.

And

it cost 20.

What did you yell?

Nerd?

Did I hear that correct?

I just want to hear how hard that pot is calling this kettle black.

That's a pretty chill tattoo to get at 19.

Cost $20.

$20.

So I'm just letting you know, now you live in an age where you can do whatever you want here in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts to get a tattoo at the age of 19.

So what tattoos are you guys going to get?

Can I see your tattoo again?

No.

I'm going to get to the tattoo.

Why weren't you paying attention the first time?

Well, I just want to get it in my mind so I can tell the guy in vivid detail exactly what I want and where I want it.

I'll attribute it to you.

Who are you again?

I'm Charlie.

I find in Charlie's favor.

Now,

that I've made the order, let's go back and see if I was right.

Zach, what's the problem here?

Charlie is the plaintiff here, actually.

Oh, God.

All right.

Plaintiff Charlie.

What's the problem?

So Zach and I, being all young and hip and that, use this app called Snapchat to communicate.

We get it.

You're running hipsters.

So there's also a function on Snapchat where you can send messages to each other.

But the thing is, like the pictures, the messages disappear once you look at them.

And so I think that when Zach tries to have conversations with me using this message feature, I lose the ability to really have a meaningful conversation because there's a lack of context and it becomes disjointed because I'm trying to remember the last thing he said and form a cohesive argument.

And so I think it would be easier if Zach wants to have a conversation with me, he can text me, which is just as easy to reach because they're both on your phone.

That let the record show.

That's true.

Zach.

He's got a point.

When Zach heard the word text, he threw his head back in disdain.

What do you think I am, a millennial?

Sorry, old man.

Zach, why won't you text with your friend?

Okay, I just want to point this out.

He's not talking about large conversations here.

To an extent I am.

The first time that he ever got upset about me texting him via Snapchat was when I asked him where he was sitting in the dining hall.

That's not a conversation that requires a long record of every word I said.

That is a very, very quick message that he can relay very quickly.

I would like to dispute that claim.

When I first gave Zach my phone number, it was over Snapchat message because I said perhaps this would be easier if we texted.

Why don't you guys just whisper together in your telekinetic made-up twin language?

You should see up in the mezzanine there's a third one of us.

There's a third one?

There is a third one.

We're communicating him with right with him right now, actually.

Hey, Danny.

You don't need to say it.

He understands.

I'm translating.

As fun as it was visiting with the village of the damned,

I have to say, my initial instinct is correct that Charlie is right.

Just text message with your friend.

The point of conversations is to be able to understand each other.

And unfortunately, he's too dim to get the Snapchat through him.

And

you want to communicate with him, so do it.

There you go.

You know, we've been doing My Brother, My Brother, me for 15 years.

And

maybe you stopped listening for a while, maybe you never listened.

And you're probably assuming three white guys talking for 15 years, I know where this has ended up.

But no, nope, you would be wrong.

We're as shocked as you are that we have not fallen into some sort of horrific scandal or just turned into a big crypto thing.

Yeah.

You don't even really know how crypto works.

The only NFTs I'm into are naughty, funny things, which is what we talk about on My Brother, My Brother, and Me.

We serve it up every Monday for you if you're listening.

And if not, we just leave it out back and goes rotten.

So check it out on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts.

All right, we're over 70 episodes into our show.

Let's learn everything.

So let's do a quick progress check.

Have we learned about quantum physics?

Yes, episode 59.

We haven't learned about the history of gossip yet, have we?

Yes, we have.

Same episode, actually.

Have we talked to Tom Scott about his love of roller coasters?

Episode 64.

So how close are we to learning everything?

Bad news.

We still haven't learned everything yet.

Oh, we're ruined.

No, no, no.

It's good news as well.

There is still a lot to learn.

Woo!

I'm Dr.

Ella Hubber.

I'm regular Tom Long.

I'm Caroline Roper, and on Let's Learn Everything, we learn about science and a bit of everything else too.

And although we haven't learned everything yet, I've got a pretty good feeling about this next episode.

Join us every other Thursday on Maximum Fun.

Judge Hodgman, we've got another case.

Would you like to retire to your chambers?

I do.

Okay.

Well, first of all, I'd like to bring out an expert for our next case.

You might know him from the TV Guidance Counselor podcast or from his stand-up comedy, Boston's Own Ken Reed.

Hello, Ken.

Thank you very much.

Tonight's case, law and gag order.

Tim brings the case against his wife, Hina.

Hina likes to watch a certain house-buying reality television show when she's unwinding.

Tim watches with her while providing his own sometimes snarky commentary.

Tim's comments bother Hina, who likes to enjoy the show for what it is.

Tim would like to continue to hate-watch the show.

Who's right, who's wrong?

Please rise metaphorically as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom.

We each have the choice whether to be a good or a bad influence.

in the lives of others.

Two,

in a lifetime, if we are truly lucky, we meet that special somebody who fits us perfectly.

The person who's weird matches ours completely.

3.

The first step in bringing an idea to life is putting pen to paper.

4.

It's much easier to follow the popular path than it is to be a man of character.

5.

Knowledge is all about perspective.

The more you learn, the less you discover that you know.

Bailiff Jesse Thorne, swear them in.

Please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you, God, or whatever?

I do.

I do.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he believes that your homes and the homes of all the people present are technically his property?

I do.

I do.

Very well.

You may be seated.

Tim and Hina, for an immediate summary judgment in one of your favors, can you name the piece of culture that I quoted as I entered the courtroom?

Hina, you are brought here against your will by Tim.

So you have the choice to guess first or make Tim guess first.

Which shall you choose?

I'll make him guess first.

He's going to guess first.

Very popular option.

Tim, what is your guess?

Was it original House Hunters host Suzanne Huang?

Whoa, deep cuts.

Deep cut.

Tim, can I give you some advice?

You're doing great with deep cuts so far, but be careful, because for every original househunters host, Tina Huang, there's a rap and forte that's really going to die out there.

Sometimes deep cuts don't heal.

I can fix that.

All right, we'll put that in the guest book.

Hina, what is your guess?

Biblical verse.

Biblical verse.

We'll put that into the guest book.

Before I evaluate the validity of your guesses and their wrongness,

you think I don't know who is the current host of House Centers?

The great Andromeda Dunker.

There it is.

That was it.

That was the one for you.

Too deep.

Too deep a cut.

Wait until I start talking about antiques roadshow host Mark L.

Wahlberg.

Known the world over as the world's worst Mark Wahlberg.

Not in Boston.

Not in Boston.

Half this crowd's been punched by the other Mark.

They both look good in their underpants, though, don't they?

Both are guesses, but all guesses are wrong.

It's very hard to put these together, these cultural references.

Sometimes something doesn't just come to mind, sometimes you need to do a little research.

Sometimes, though, the perfect thing presents itself immediately via Google,

as when you Google in certain search terms and immediately get the first result:

five quotes from the property brothers that get me through tough times.

And in case you were wondering,

the quotes in order were by J.D.

Scott, the other one.

J.D.

Scott again, Drew Scott, Jonathan, and then Jonathan again.

So you're wrong, so we have to hear this case.

The show that you watch, and we might as well just reveal it at this point, right?

Is not Property Brothers, but it is the show.

House Hunters.

House Hunters.

And not House Hunters International?

if I've gone through the DVR of all of the house hunters then I will do house hunters international tiny house hunters or house hunters off the grid but you're saying

you're saying house hunters domestic is your number it's your number one it is oh you could not be more wrong madam

I'm in awe of how many house hunters there are

this is like uh this is like looking too deep into uh adult subreddits.

There's curvy house hunters.

There's...

Househunters with Sonic the Hedgehog.

What?

If you think House Hunters fan fiction does not exist,

I am so sure you're wrong.

But Ken, wouldn't you agree that House Hunters International is superior to House Hunters?

Absolutely, yes.

It's the House Hunters version of having a guest star.

Yeah, but you know why?

Because these shows are all about stories, right?

It's all about narrative, right?

You have house hunters.

What do you have?

Two people hunting a house.

Because why?

They need to move because whatever.

Do you know what I'm saying?

Housing International, it's already premised on a mystery.

Why do these people have to leave the country?

It's all these families that are like, you know, Rick and Tina suddenly found they needed to move.

That's not easy.

To countries with lax extradition laws.

How come on international househunters, they also always change their names.

That's right, exactly.

Well, because if they called them Julian Assange, they would know where to find him.

That was a good episode.

In any case, you like househunters.

You're into it.

What do you like about it?

You can tell I'm on your side to some degree, because I also enjoy these shows.

I mean, it's just, it's a way to decompress after a really long, complex day at work.

But why this particular show is opposed to any other or this or this family of shows?

Well, because I am a big fan of house hunting and I live in my grown-up house now, so I can't house hunt in my real life, and so I can live vicariously through these people.

Do you live in your grown-up house?

Yes.

Where in the Boston area?

We live in Shrewsbury, Massachusetts.

Shrewsbury, Massachusetts?

All right.

Woo!

People are howling

for Shrewsbury.

Strange.

Tim,

you also live in Hina's grown-up house, as she calls it?

She does allow me to sleep there, yes.

Okay, good.

And you do not like to watch The House Hunters.

I do not like to watch House Hunters for its face value of entertainment.

Well,

you mean you have, you don't, but you have contempt for it.

Correct.

What makes you have contempt for it?

Well,

just as a New Englander and someone who is of a generation that grew up with David Letterman and David Spates, Hollywood Minute,

I just have.

No one grew up with that, sir.

Nothing against it, but

that's not possible.

That arrests development.

No, I'm just saying that I have

a you know a well of dark wild that needs to be vented onto something

and Why not this show that is on in my house?

Well Judge Richmond he grew up with David Letterman Adam Sandler's opera man

The classics.

So why not completely destroy the one thing your wife seems to enjoy?

It makes perfect sense Letterman to that.

I think it's about having a cultural equivalency between the two of us.

You know, when I found out a few years ago through a number of different sources that the show at this point is not really based in reality, and they made

it

originally.

For those who don't know the history of house hunters, In the 70s, it was a Verida series for PBS.

It was, yeah.

It was more of a nature show.

That's right.

It was a stark, realistic documentary about an American family hunting for a home in which to live.

And then there was that episode where the ranch house came out.

Yeah, that's right.

It was television's first gay house.

It's true.

But is there a show that you enjoy to unwind that you will watch?

He doesn't need to unwind.

Why doesn't he need to unwind?

Because you're such a chill dude.

Filled with bile.

Sir, are you David Lee Roth?

Zibita bile.

Yeah, he's already said that he has to off-gas his vile, his vile bile.

Because

the two of us, I have chosen the kind of less challenging career path so that I can spend more time with our children at home and taking care of the household because she, because you have a very challenging job, and you are not physically in the home enough to help with a lot of the things that need to be done.

So why not?

It sounds like a complaint, though.

This started as a compliment and turned into a complaint.

Yeah, no, so, but what?

I'm just excited because, in my imagination, he works at Margarita Bell.

But I'm away enough that he can decompress watching shows whenever he wants.

Tina, what is your career?

I'm a surgeon.

You're a surgeon.

What kind of surgery do you perform on human beings who put their lives in your hands?

I do trauma and emergency surgery.

Trauma and emergency

surgery.

So I operate on anywhere from the neck to the pelvis, and I take out spleens and I fix holes in lungs, and I can, you know, do all the balls.

But if it's below the pelvis, you're like, uh-uh, get away from it.

Well, if it's

if it's a vascular injury, I'll fix it.

But if it's a bone, then we have orthopedic surgeons.

Okay, I got you.

So, Hino, what exactly do you need to decompress from?

Tim,

aside from doing all the household management and parenting that you do, do you have a career on top of that?

I'm a marketing and communications manager, but I am presently unemployed.

Okay, so you're a stay-at-home dad and household manager and housekeeper and dude there, like that, right?

Yes, but I would complain about the show when I was employed also.

Okay.

He just got laid off recently.

Because you have time on your hands.

Yes.

That's right.

You have all the time in the world and mental energy in the world to devote to developing some first-class snark against house hunters.

That's true.

Ken, this is a style of watching television that's called hate-watching.

As you are a television expert, do you have an opinion on this?

I do.

Hate-watching is best done in groups,

like-minded groups.

Hate-watching is generally not advised when there are only two people and only one of them is hate-watching.

Now,

that's called divorce fomancing.

Yes.

Really, in any of those scenarios, hate anything is generally frowned upon.

But hate watching sort of developed in the pre-millennium age when people were forced, literally forced, to watch things they did not want to watch because people didn't want to change channels.

So, if you had a show you liked at 9 and the other person in the house had one at at 8:30 they liked that you hated, you would watch that show because you wouldn't leave the room until your show started at 9, therefore, hate watching permissible.

To be clear, we're talking about Seinfeld and the single guy.

Yes.

Just the NBC 9:30 slot in general.

Yeah.

Between ER and Seinfeld, anything that fell into that slot, you could hate watch because you wouldn't get up.

With apologies to Caroline Ray.

Yes.

Yes.

In the 21st century, when we can basically program anything we want at any time,

it really isn't a necessity anymore and simply becomes something that's just poor judgment.

Or a sick indulgence.

Yes, it becomes more about the person you are watching it with than the show.

But Ken, I have a question for you.

You're a television expert.

I mean, in my opinion, the problem with never hate watching is like I have a lot of time to fill with television, and there just aren't a lot of TV shows these days.

It's true.

There are only four TV shows these days.

Three of them are House Hunters variations.

But I don't want to censor Tim because maybe he's a brilliant hate watcher.

Maybe he's getting out some really sick burns on Househunters.

He may be very good at it, but it's more about appropriateness and not about skill level.

Well, did you bring any example of your sick burns?

Do you have evidence?

I did not.

You did not.

There have been 538 episodes of the show, and they all blur together in a mishmash of hateable

people who shouldn't be buying houses.

So, like, what are the kinds of things you'll say that will ruin Hina's enjoyment of the show?

And why do these people not deserve to join the landed class?

Yes.

And more importantly, why do you know exactly how many episodes of this show is?

Because I have a suspicion you may be pre-watching these while your wife is at work and writing your

pre-writing your burns.

Like you have a writer's room with your kids where they like kind of all worked out some material.

She does make our children watch also.

She makes your children watch?

Yes.

Like against their will?

I walk in the house and they know to turn on house hunters.

They know to turn it on because mama's home or else she might not perform vascular surgery when it's required.

Hina, you did bring some evidence, did you not?

I have it it here on my machine.

I mean that I use it to unwind, yes.

What is the physical evidence which is...

A little PowerPoint that I made.

I will allow it.

In your free time between saving lives.

That's right.

Let's see the PowerPoint.

She needs it to distress.

Oh, this is a Facebook post.

Had a crazy-ass night in the OR.

Had to bring my A-game to a high-stakes seminar today with the dean and lots of other important folks on scheduled afternoons.

So I snuck home, had my husband, who is working from home today, pour a generous bowl of kata meta.

Am I pronouncing that correctly?

Yes.

Thank you.

Put on PJs and took it upstairs to eat while I watch house hunters, seated on my heated mattress pad to calm the wicked backache from operating.

It's a weird position.

And that's kata mita.

Yes.

And what is kata mita?

I've never heard of it.

It's like Indian crack.

I take it you are of Indian ancestry?

That That is correct.

And

what is it actually made out of?

It's kind of like an Indian version of

Chex Mix, and it's like a spicy, sweet.

You got me.

No, no, you don't have to tell any more than that.

Sold in the room.

All right.

Yeah, you could have just summarized what's saying, yeah, it's the hotness.

This is it.

So far, he's being really nice.

What's the next slide, please?

She may need a 12-step program.

Househunters, I need a daily dose.

Not Anna Kendrick.

What?

Anna Kendrick?

Househunters should be called couples realizing they should see other people.

Good one, movie star Anna Kendrick.

Yeah, really.

What makes her so popular is that she understands the common person.

She has the common touch.

Have you ever heard him repeat like a burn to househunters that clearly Anna Kendrick wrote?

All right, next slide, please.

Does he ever say, here's another Kendrick classic?

You know what the great poet Anna Kendrick said.

She has tried to find alternatives, stopped stopped into the house to control-alt-delete myself after a night on call.

Nice terminology, I like that.

Walked into Sunil watching American Ninja Warrior.

Is that your son?

Yes.

Okay.

Now everyone is gone, and I'm still sitting here watching.

Could this be my new house hunters?

Next slide, please.

House hunters hitting our first ever Chicago condo building.

Oh, you missed.

Okay.

Sometimes it makes you cry.

Oh, I see.

So it says, sometimes it makes her cry, and you saw househunters in Chicago and it made you cry.

They're in in Chicago a lot, and I get sentimental for where I did my surgery training.

Oh, okay.

Gotcha.

So it's a

personal feeling.

All right.

Got it.

Next.

How many of these are there, by the way?

536, the same amount of episodes.

I assumed the editors would maybe cut a few out.

Well, let's go to the next one.

Sometimes it makes her angry.

Next.

Some mothers dream for their children to go to Harvard, but you dream

me while driving on Newton Street in Brookline, Brookline, Mass.

Wow, look at those houses.

They're so beautiful, Sona.

They're all tutors, right?

Is that your daughter?

That's my daughter.

Such a proud mama moment.

Next slide.

Okay, I think I get the idea.

I appreciate that you made 3,000 slides for me to read

and describe for a podcast, but I think that that

moment when Sona said all tutors and you felt that flush of pride,

I felt a little something there myself.

Tim, this is obviously very meaningful to your wife.

Do you take more pleasure in making fun of house hunters or making her feel bad?

I'm not trying to make her feel bad.

What is it he does?

Does he make comments?

Well, if he wants to make comments, I'd rather he talk about the curb appeal or the trim and the molding or like, oh, what a terrible bathroom.

And instead he's like, that's what he decided to wear on national TV.

And he often will sort of get into the irrationality of some of the potential home buyers with, you know, the disconnect between the budget and the wants and things like that.

Whereas I just want to appreciate the properties.

Do you think you could do better?

You could dress better on national TV if you were hunting for a house there, Tim?

No comment.

Okay.

Tim, now, to your point of it being a fake show, it is.

Almost every single person on house hunters has already purchased a house, and then they sort of reverse engineer the other two choices.

What?

Yeah, that's how it works.

Yeah, they'll often find someone who's already bought a house, and then they'll find two other houses knowing that they won't pick that house, and then they found the house they want.

But the story, it sounds like...

Also, Mark L.

Wahlberg is really a lizard person.

Yes.

Yes.

These are things that we know because we're in show business.

This is what's revealed on day one in showbiz school.

But it sounds like you don't care care what house they pick.

You just want a house creep.

Where you look at another house that you don't live in.

Right.

Yes.

Tim, do you ever look at other women?

I don't see how that applies here.

Okay.

Now, point being,

there is no show that you watch that is your show that you enjoy.

Parks and Recreation?

Sure.

Okay.

So you can watch that at 10 a.m., 11 a.m., 12 p.m.

All day long.

That is true.

And you know that show is fake.

But it's much better than House Hunters.

I guess

how does this ruin your experience of watching House Hunters if he's making these comments?

Because I just want to sit and relax and watch the show.

Why is that not enough for you to keep your trap shut for a minute, Tim?

Because I'm being forced to watch a show that is fake, that is, at best, mediocrely produced, and when there's so much more television to be watched out there that is much better, as Ken pointed out, and there are only so many hours in the day.

What would you have me order that you watch instead?

Parks and Recreation.

She has not seen an episode.

Oh, I see.

You haven't even seen the episode featuring the public radio hosts?

One of them was super handsome and super cool.

Yeah, I was also in that one.

Have you ever watched Parks and Reg?

No, is it that?

How much time in the evening do you have to watch television?

Well, I usually,

depending on when I get home, will watch television until I fall asleep.

Give me some numbers.

What time do you get home?

An hour, hour and a half, max.

So 90 minutes of TV?

Yeah, and I'm not sure.

And you fill that all up with house hunters.

Yes.

What's the most number of house hunters you've watched in a row?

Ballpark?

Five.

Five.

Okay.

So do the math.

Let's do it half hours, right?

More or less?

Okay, gotcha.

How much more

it's different on a weekend?

So on a weekend, how much do you watch?

Until the DVR is empty.

Can I ask you a serious question?

Have you ever hid house hunters around the house?

In the toilet bowl.

In their toilet bowl.

Have you ever lied about your relationship with house hunters?

No.

Do you think you have a problem

watching House Hunters?

Do you have an episode?

I think it's a perfectly valid way to have some mindless stuff to do.

Is there anything else that you watch?

Well, so we have to.

Do you have 300 episodes of House Hunters piled by your bed?

No, I don't.

No.

But I want to thank you for validating my need to buy 65 more pairs of shoes.

Do you also have 300 pairs of shoes?

That could have been our case.

What's that?

Let the record show that she's wearing a necklace of a shoe.

All right.

Tim, you would like me to order her to watch one episode of Parks and Recreation?

Yes.

And limit her watching of House Hunters?

Yes.

To what?

How many episodes per day?

Weekdays?

Weekdays, one episode of House Hunters.

Oh.

That's good.

Even

that made me gasp.

You can't watch just one of those things, but all right, I'll take it under advisory.

On the weekend.

They're just one new one every day.

On the weekend.

On the weekend, how many episodes can she watch per day?

Five.

Five.

Oh, whoa, what a generous husband you've become.

It's because I work a lot of weekends.

This is only when I'm home.

Hina, why is it intolerable for you to watch one episode of Parks and Rec for every one episode of Cow Centers?

I mean, I guess I could do it.

I don't know.

All right.

I've heard everything I need to.

I'm going to go binge watch all my episodes of

Blind Spot,

by which I mean both of them, and watch myself die again and again and again and contemplate, and that's what gives me comfort.

Yeah, you had time to watch it, weirdo.

I'll be back in a moment with my decision.

Please rise metaphorically as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Tim, can I ask you a quick question?

Have you ever seen the television show comedy Bang Bang on IFC, the Independent Film Channel?

I am familiar.

I was on that one time.

We're just listing our TV credits, right?

I have zero TV credits, but I do have a list of people, things, and places that I know that have gotten TV credits before me,

including my DVD box set of the show Wonder Falls, which appeared on Last Comic Standing, and

my uncle's dog, Thor, who ran away and was found by a man named Thor.

I will say that Hina has also appeared in at least one episode of a real-life medical documentary show.

Oh, so you also go on my list of people who have gotten a television credit before me.

But two questions I had for you is, it seems like you enjoy looking at houses.

Yes.

So a recommendation I would have is I call it catch and release house hunting.

And they're called open houses.

And you can go into them on weekends and walk around and that's it.

So I used to do that all the time when we were in Chicago.

But then she became a doctor and and had much easier access to pills.

Yes, right.

No, it's just, it's harder to orchestrate in the suburbs.

It was so easy in the city.

You'd pick a neighborhood and just walk into open houses and pretend.

By open houses, you mean houses having an open house, not just unlocked houses.

Correct.

I've never been to Chicago at any length of time, so I don't know how it is.

And also, there are several other shows set in Chicago that you may find very soothing, such as Punky Brewster

or Chicago Hope, a medical drama.

No, no, no.

No medical.

Okay.

I would go with Punky Brewster then, much less depressing.

It's about a little girl abandoned in a shopping mall by her mother, and she's found by an elderly gentleman who's a confirmed bachelor and wears French cuffs.

Although, can

downside, no Mandy Patenkin.

No Mandy Potenkin.

So that's going to be a downside for that one.

That's a downside for everything.

Well, we'll see what Judge John Hodgman has to say about all of this.

Please rise metaphorically as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom.

You maybe see that

some

stories are told for a number of reasons.

Historically, stories have been told as a way of

keeping and passing down history in the oral tradition or

moral instruction and cohering cohereing a group under a certain common moral code.

They have been told to entertain,

and they have been told simply to distract.

You tell a story around a fire so you don't have to think about what is out there in the dark behind you.

Some stories are challenging.

Some stories are provocative and make you change your mind, and some stories just lull you into a beautiful, beautiful state of meditative contemplating of open kitchen plans.

But there is a certain pleasure that is taken from a story when it creates an expectation and defies it in interesting ways.

There's a certain satisfaction that comes from engaging in a story that creates an expectation through the narrative and defies it in a completely mind-boggling way and a troubling way.

And then there's a certain pleasure that comes from a story that creates an expectation and satisfies it perfectly every time.

That is why we have police procedurals.

That is why we have detective novels where you can figure it out halfway through and can feel smarter than the author.

And that is why we have house hunters both here and abroad and in small homes and underground homes and homes that float in the air and homes that are inside of other homes.

Secret second homes where you keep secret families, that sort of all different stripe of homes in the world.

And you,

Tim, have an abundance of, not that you do not work incredibly hard, because parenting is incredibly challenging, but you,

and obviously all the other stuff you do around the house, too, presuming that you actually do it, I'm guessing.

He does.

Yeah, but but you, but I think it's fair to say that you do not have the level of stress visited upon you that your wife does in her life, literally life-saving and death-avoiding job that she does every day.

And

her needs of story are different from yours.

Perhaps because of the different pace of day that you guys have, or perhaps it's just because she likes what she likes.

What she needs when she comes home is to zone out to this thing that gives her pleasure.

There she knows exactly the beats as they are going to come, and

she can sift through the minute differences between this same story that is told over and over and over again.

It's always house two.

What she does not need is you ruining this for her by either

implicit or explicit critique of the thing that she's enjoying.

She does need to watch Parks and Recreation, however.

I think it's fair to say that because you are putting your hands in other people's bodies and saving their lives, I hope.

I do my best.

Yes.

That you should get what you want out of television when the time comes for you to watch it.

Because you must be tired and you must enjoy pleasure.

But like all things in life, you need to also have a varied cultural diet.

And your husband enjoys something that he wants to share with you.

And I think you should let that into your life.

I do not think it is at all fair to suggest that she watch one episode of House Hunters per day.

That is a weird form of torture.

The point of the exercise is the repetition of the story over and over and over again.

The psych watching what Joseph Campbell called

the universal hero go through the depths of the underworld until finding that perfect deck.

Do you know what I mean?

You need to see that universal mythos play over and over again, at least twice.

But for the third story, an episode of Parks and Wreck, I think, is there to balance it out.

And maybe you'll find a new kind of pleasure.

Although that is a story that is extremely comforting, but also one that is a little bit defies expectation in interesting ways.

And I think you might enjoy it, and then Tim will have that in his life.

All I'm asking is that for every two, you watch one.

And Tim, when she's watching those two,

zip it.

This is the sound of a gavel.

Judge John Hodgen rules that is all.

Gina and Tim, ladies and gentlemen, from the TV Guidance Counselor podcast, Ken Reed.

Judge Hodgman, we're almost done with tonight's proceedings, but rather than closing with a recitation of comforting television programs,

why don't we close with some beautiful music?

I think that sounds great.

Will you introduce our guests once again?

Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome back to the stage Juliana Hatfield.

After that, I want to sing a song about a house.

I was sitting in my car,

Looking at the house

I was in the audience

I was standing in the back of the club

They're selling the house

Something's gone

I

can't

find

what

I

left in the basement.

How

long

has it been

gone?

I like

dreaming

where everything

is new

and nothing has been decided upon

like how you feel or what to do

Something's lost

The life

you want is

live.

Let

me

leave.

Don't

listen to me.

Don't go away again.

Don't go away again.

Don't send me away again.

I won't send you away again.

Don't go away again.

Don't go away again

Don't send me away again

I won't send you away again

Thank you very much.

Thank you to Juliana Hatfield for playing some great music for us in Boston.

Wild Stab is the album that she released with Paul Westerberg under the name The I Don't Cares.

You can find it wherever music is sold.

You can also visit juliannahatfield.com for more information.

Thanks also to our friend Ken Reed, our TV expert witness.

He's the host of the TV Guidance Counselor podcast, which you can find at tvguidancecounselor.com.

It's really fun.

He goes and gets a TV guide from his huge collection, and he and a guest break down the TV lineups of that time period.

It's a real fun show.

We also want to thank all of our litigants in Boston who shared their arguments with us.

A bunch of people helped us put on this show.

Thanks to the staff at the Wilbur Theater, Danielle Davis, Matthew Barnhardt, and Jennifer Marmer for putting the show together.

Tickets are on sale now for Judge John Hodgman at San Francisco Sketch Fest in January and Very, Very Fun Day in Chicago in February.

Find ticket links and more information at maximumfun.org.

Tickets for Max FunCon, both West and East, are on sale now.

You can find those tickets at maxfuncon.com.

We're looking for disputes for both of our live shows, that's San Francisco and Chicago, and for the podcast.

Submit a case to Judge John Hodgman at maximumfun.org slash JJ HO.

A big one, a small one.

It doesn't matter.

We love them.

If you're on the fence about it, just do do it.

Maximumfund.org/slash JJ H.

O.

If you want to email us, Hodgman at maximumfund.org.

We'll see you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

MaximumFund.org.

Comedy and culture.

Artist-owned.

Listener-supported.