Separation of Church and Date

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman Podcast.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

This week, the separation of church and date.

Chris brings his girlfriend Sandra to court over their disagreement about what counts as going to church.

He's agreed to attend church services with her a few times a year, but thinks that going to weddings with specifically religious elements should count.

Sandra disagrees.

Who's right, who's who's wrong, only one man can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom.

There is nothing inherently sacred about moral codes.

Like the wooden idols of long ago, they are the work of human hands.

And what Judge John Hodgman has made, Judge John Hodgman can destroy.

Bailiff Jesse Thorne, please swear them in.

Please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you, God, or whatever?

I do.

I do.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling despite his dedication to whatever?

I do.

I do.

Very well, Judge Hodgman.

Chris and Sandra, you may be seated.

Now for an immediate summary judgment in one of yours favors, Chris or Sandra, can either of you name?

The origin of the quote that I paraphrased as I entered the courtroom?

Thomas Jefferson.

Oh, okay.

Well, I should have told you, Sandra, that because you are being brought to this court by Chris, you have the right to guess first or not guess first and make Chris guess first, but you have guessed.

Thomas Jefferson, who wrote his own version of the Bible.

So it's an interesting, you know, he created a Bible that removed all of the supernatural elements of the Bible and only contained the moral instruction of Jesus Christ.

And so it had none of the walking on water, if I remember this correctly, I could be wrong.

None of the loaves into fishes, none of the

just straight-up moral code.

So that's an interesting point of view.

Chris, do you have a guess?

I'll just say something by James Joyce, and I would have deferred anyway, so it didn't mess up her timing.

Good.

No, that's fine.

The fault was on mine.

This is an institution of men and women, and we are failures on earth.

We are not omnipotent nor omniscient, and I made a mistake.

Let us never speak of it again.

But I will say say that all guesses are wrong because

you're both wrong.

While I enjoyed both guesses, and the Thomas Jefferson one obviously piqued my curiosity, and maybe I should have quoted something from him.

Instead, I went back to that old fallback,

Anton Sandor Levay, in the Satanic Bible.

I was quoting from the Church of Satan's founding text, the Satanic Bible, by Anton LeVay.

I had many, many rich choices I could have offered you, but this is the one that seemed most appropriate for a legal or a fake legal podcast.

Are you either of you, I presume that the church that you are asking Chris to attend more frequently is not Black Masses of the Church of Satan?

That would, actually, I would want to attend that more frequently.

Okay.

But no, normally it's the Presbyterian church.

The Presbyterian Church.

And so you guys are a boyfriend, girlfriend.

Is that correct, Sandra?

Yes.

I refer to him as my partner more often than not.

Well, how long have you guys been partners in sin?

A little, well, a little over 10 years now.

Oh, yeah.

But you are not married?

We are not married.

Not in the Presbyterian Church, not in the Church of Satan,

not even under the

heretic eyes of the law.

No, that's correct.

All right.

Do you cohabitate?

Yes, we do cohabitate.

All right.

And you cohabitate in Kentucky?

Is that correct?

Yes.

Yes.

Where in Kentucky?

Louisville.

Louisville, Kentucky.

Is that where you guys are from?

It's where I am from, and she is from Ohio.

I was born and raised in Toledo, Ohio, but I've lived here for about a little over 10 years.

And did you move from Ohio to Kentucky to be with Chris?

No, I moved here for grad school and then just happened to meet Chris the first weekend that I moved here.

Oh, really?

What was the situation?

Did you meet in church?

No, it was one of my good friends from college is from Louisville.

And so I got in touch with him as soon as I moved here and he told me to come out and meet some of his friends who live here just to just to know some locals and that's where I met him.

Awesome.

And

may I ask what your ages are?

I am 33.

I'm 33 as well.

Oh,

boy.

You know, someone else was 33 once.

You know what I'm talking about.

It didn't go well after that.

Anton LeVay.

But unlike Jesus Christ, Anton LeVay didn't give up.

He kept going, wouldn't let himself be crucified, and lived to a ripe old age of something else.

Later, I don't know.

Because the Church of Satan, of course, is not exactly a church.

It is not Satan worship.

It is

a provocative art project dedicated to turning men and women away from worship of all kinds.

It's essentially Ayn Randian objectivism with goat masks, as I believe I have said before in this podcast.

Just so you know, I am not a Satanist.

I do not quote someone who worships the devil.

In case you are worried, I am here completely agnostic in the truest and most cowardly sense.

I have no idea what's going on out there.

But you, Sandra, are a member of the Presbyterian Church and grew up that way?

Yes, I'm a cradle Presbyterian and I moved to Louisville to do a dual program with Louisville Presbyterian Theological Seminary and University of Louisville's Law School.

So I am an attorney, but I am also a candidate for ordination.

The Presbyterian Church USA, my abbreviation would just be PCUSA.

And I will hopefully be ordained sometime this year, I hope.

As a,

I don't even know what you would be ordained as.

Priestess of the high presbyter?

No, we kind of juggled terms.

People either know it as an ordained teaching elder or minister of word and sacrament.

Our own denomination is kind of confused by those two terms right now.

Ordained, wait a minute.

Ordained preaching elder?

An ordained teaching elder or minister of word and sacrament.

Does your religion take place in a fantasy novel or something?

These are some heavy-duty titles.

I like them a lot.

Do you get to choose which one you get to be?

No, so it was the title was minister of word and sacrament for years.

And then it was maybe, I'm not even sure how long ago, maybe eight years ago or so, they switched to teaching elder.

But that at our last general assembly, which is the national meeting of our church, every two years, some people just raised the issue that people were confused by the term teaching elder, so they want to go back to minister of word and sacrament.

So Presbyterians are still confused by it, but we go by either.

There's a unique power structure in the Presbyterian Church, and particularly in local Presbyterian churches, right?

Both, it's a very democratic system.

So you have the congregation is ruled by elders who are elected, and then there's a presbytery, which is kind of more of a smaller regional governing body.

Then there's your synods, which are groups of presbyteries, and then your general assembly level, which is the national church structure.

And if you were to give

an extremely brief explanation

of what the Presbyterian denomination is compared to, say, the Catholic Church, is there

a main theological difference?

Is there a main structural difference?

Yes, the Presbyterian Church, and within the label of Presbyterianism, there are a lot of separate denominations.

But the PCUSA is the largest denomination, Presbyterian denomination in the U.S.

We're a mainline Protestant church, and we're in the Reformed tradition.

And Sud say that our theology is progressive to liberal.

We believe that the Bible is the inspired Word of God, but we don't take a literal interpretation of it.

And

we think that God speaks to all people and we have to read the Bible within a certain cultural and historical context.

And we're very committed to social justice issues.

Great.

Thank you very much, high-esteemed master of word and law.

Not yet.

William, in my heart.

Okay.

In the religion of Judge John Hodgman, I've already ordained you.

I thank you.

Chris.

Yes.

You monstrous dirty layman, you are not ordained.

What is your relationship to the Presbyterian Church, if any?

I have no relation to the Presbyterian Church except through Sandra, where I go as her guest.

A few times a year, as we've discussed.

She signs you in?

With some bad looks coming at me.

Uh-huh.

Not really.

You're her plus one to the church.

Exactly.

All right.

So did you grow up in any religious context?

I grew up a Catholic and then quickly made my way over to an agnostic and an atheist, which is where I am now, so I can give myself whatever title I would like and just bestow it on myself.

Like, are you a member of the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster?

Is that how atheist you are?

I follow them on Facebook, but, you know, again, that's a little too formal for me.

So I like to be out by myself on these issues.

The Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster is a phony religion, kind of like the Church of Satan, that was created to highlight the arbitrary absurdity of all religion.

It's a protest non-religion religion.

And its primary characteristics are people wearing colanders on their heads, and of course, it's known for its formality.

So, So, wow, so you are an atheist, and you are in a long-term

relationship with a woman who is about to become a teaching elder.

And let me guess, Sandra, are you not an atheist?

I am not.

I believe in something greater than humankind.

Right.

You believe in God?

Yes.

Resolate.

All right.

Do you believe in an afterlife?

I'm kind of indifferent.

I think that in a lot of ways,

humans created an afterlife to make themselves feel better about death.

I know I sure did.

So I just,

in my faith, I tend to focus on the here and now and making

trying to do the best I can to

make the world, it sounds cheesy, but make the world a better place while I'm here.

Sure.

That's very much in the tradition of the Church of Satan.

And I might just quote to you from the satanic scriptures by Peter H.

Gilmore, who is currently the high magus of the Church of Satan after Anton Levade passed away.

He said,

We are in exciting times.

Indulge, innovate, and celebrate the unique life that is your precious treasure, as well as the lives of those dear to you who enrich your days by their very existence.

The world is ours.

So go forth and fill your experience with satisfaction.

As you flow with the eternal eternal now, may it be in exquisite pleasure.

Peter H.

Gilmore, Satanic Scriptures.

Will you read that to your congregation at some point for me?

Maybe, yeah, I may bring you up in maybe a Sunday school class something when we study other sacred texts.

Because Presbyterians, I think that they would be open to even reading something from the Satanic Bible just to see other schools of thought and

what other people believe in.

Peter H.

Gilmore, I've met personally, he could not be a more adorable or sweet man, and also

a very learned enthusiast of tiki cocktail culture.

There's a shock.

That just doesn't fit, culturally speaking.

I don't mean to bring money into the temple, but if you were to read that passage to your Sunday school class, I would pay you $1,000.

Oh, really?

Offer and acceptance.

All right, good.

I've got the check here as soon as you provide the proof.

Okay.

We'll just just see what happens.

I will actually go to church that day and videotape it as the proof.

Yeah, now, see, Chris, it seems to me that

the dispute here is that Sandra would like you to go to church more.

And specifically,

you have agreed to how many church visits per year?

Do you have an existing contract?

We do.

So I would say almost 10 years ago, or very close to the start of the relationship, I agreed to go twice a year to church with her.

And now, see, I don't know why you wouldn't want to go five or six or eight times a year because this is this sounds like fun church to me.

They're reading the satanic Bible in there.

But anyway,

and cash in checks for $1,000.

It just seems like it's cool.

Anything, I won't say anything goes, but it's a real open-minded, swinging congregation over there.

If the ruling is they have to do the satanic Bible and $1,000 every week, I'm in.

We'll just see about the ruling.

now the dispute is that you've agreed to go two times a year but you are counting

christmas and easter and weddings and presumably funerals and other

you know sort of mandatory events as your church visits and sandra doesn't think that counts is that do i understand the dispute correctly christmas and easter would count against the two

I want to count weddings with church services attached to them as going to to church.

Okay.

You want to get it done as quickly as possible.

Exactly.

All right.

What do you dislike about it?

It's Sunday morning.

You know, I don't find it particularly interesting or uplifting as many people do, and I would just rather avoid it altogether.

When you say weddings with church services attached,

can you describe what you mean by that?

Do you simply mean religious weddings or do you mean weddings that have,

you know people taking communion and stuff?

I think there's the sliding scale there, which is what we want the clarification on.

The most liberal short wedding with no mention of any religion wouldn't count, obviously.

But if the communion is given out and there are multiple readings and a priest and all the other church elements held in a church, I think that should count as going to church.

I'll give you an example.

I was married in a church, the church that I grew up going to.

I was married by my grandfather-in-law, who is a judge, not a priest, and he forgot my name several times.

Is that a religious wedding?

As the facts given, I would say no.

However, many weddings have multiple religious readings that go on, and a lot of the symbolism of the church is brought into the wedding as well.

So in your scenario, it sounds no.

What if there are religious readings, but they don't match?

Oh, so one Hindu reading and one Catholic?

Yeah.

I would, you know, this is what we go to the judge for.

We need some strict ruling on this.

That would be evidence against my point of view, though.

Okay,

let me get to this, to the Holy Spirit of the law rather than the earthly letter of the law.

Sandra, when you suggested that Chris join you at church twice a year,

did you hope that he would be coming to your congregation twice a year?

Well, it's hard because I don't really, I kind of have a home congregation here, but I specifically meant Sunday morning services, unless it was a Christmas Eve service that happened at night.

That was my understanding of the agreement we were getting into.

And this was purely a verbal agreement?

You did not write it down on any golden plates or stone tablets?

We did not.

Okay.

Well, maybe we shouldn't think about that next time.

You won't have to go to a dumb podcast.

And why do you want Chris to join you two Sundays at a minimum per year at church service?

Well, it started, so the first, when we first met, I was in seminary.

And my second year of seminary, I worked for a church and I knew I was going to preach at least two times during my internship.

And then I think it just how I came up with the number two is that there's a lot of Christians who are just Easters and Christmases or CNEs, Christmas and Easters.

That's what you call them?

CNEs, yes.

CNEs.

We have a label for you.

C and Es.

Yeah, I know, I got you.

Okay.

Christmas and Easters.

And so for me, it was just that

those two church services and those days, that that's about family more than, I mean, for me, it's very spiritual those days as well.

But

any other day of the year, any other Sunday, I don't mind sitting alone by myself in a pew.

I'm there to worship, so I don't care if I have company.

But it's more of those times when they're more special family moments.

And if my family's unable to come to Louisville to celebrate those with me, that I want Chris to be there because he's the only family I have here.

So you're only asking for C and E out of him.

You just want him to be one of those garbage Christians that you and the other older teachers make fun of behind the scenes.

Yeah, or if he wants to substitute one of those services for a day that I'm leading worship or preaching,

then he can do that.

Are you hoping that Chris will, if he attends at least twice a year, he might come closer to your worldview than his current contemptible atheism?

Are you trying to convert your boyfriend partner?

I am not.

And I think he would agree that that's that he would know that's not my intention.

But I guess I would like to challenge him because I think that his view of Christianity is very negative based on his experiences with Christianity and just the general stereotypes that Christians are closed-minded and are bigots and hypocrites.

And just to show him that, at least my church experience, while that does exist, that there are Christians who are open-minded and progressive and can work towards peace and justice rather than just bringing people down.

Chris, how do you respond to this accusation that

you hold church in contempt?

And Christians in contempt.

The people

that are through her denomination, I don't hold in contempt at all, or the church.

And I've seen already that, you know, there's a lot of great people there that are supportive and inclusive of all types of people

to go and worship with them.

So

I don't think she has to do any more convincing on that part.

But I still don't feel that I want to go and make it a Sunday activity, even if it is only a few times a year.

And how many weddings have you been to this year?

Five this year.

And how many of them were religious weddings by your estimation?

I would call all five religious.

I would say, and the vast majority of weddings we've been to together,

I would say are religious in nature and would count, but not all.

Sandra, do you agree that the five weddings that you have, did you attend them together?

We attended most.

We've been to 50 some weddings together, so we they kind of blur together, but I think we've been to four weddings together this wedding season, and I would only consider, if I'm remembering correctly oh only one of them religious because it was in a church and there were hymns involved and a homily so that to me would would I don't want to count it towards the two but it would be a religious service in my book all right so Sandra agrees that one was religious Chris of the other weddings that you identified in your mind when I asked you how many you've been to this year Name the other one that you believe most qualifies as religious.

First of all, who got married?

Okay, well, I don't know that I want to give any names out and call out anybody's wedding on

National Airways.

I'll tell you what, I don't care what you want.

Just give me their first names or make some up that sound plausible to me.

That's how religions get started.

Oh, my friend Andrew got married, and I would say his wasn't ⁇ I would not count that one.

So as I think back about them, that one would not count.

Andrew and his unnamed spouse.

Okay.

Next, give me one that was religious.

Friend Keith got married.

I believe that's the one Sandra is talking about.

Yes.

Right.

And that was in a church and more religious in nature.

Do none of the wives have names in Kentucky?

Again, I'm trying to keep it as anonymous.

It's Keith and Mary Beth.

Okay.

They're a lovely couple.

I think they sound great.

But why is it a what it's just a matter of record that that they were married?

Are you concerned that you're going to characterize their wedding as religious on a podcast and that's going to offend them in some way?

I'm just worried if other people were on podcasts, what they'd say about me, and I might not like it.

So, I guess I'm just playing my cards really quickly.

Do unto others as you would have done unto yourself.

That is

a law that I just wrote.

It sounds good.

There has to, all right, let's forget about, I'll come up with pseudonyms.

Say your friends John Hodgman and Jesse Thorne got married in a religious ceremony.

What was the other religious ceremony?

At least one.

Because you understand, Sandra has stipulated that one of these definitely was church wedding, right?

And if you want me to count church weddings as visits to church, we can put that one in the church category.

Now, if you want to get out of going to Christmas this year, you got to come up with one other wedding that is sufficiently churchy that it's going to move me to think this guy has a point.

So of the five, we already know that Keith, was it Keith and Mary Beth?

Yes.

Churchy.

You don't have to give them their names, but describe the other, at one other churchy wedding.

Well, the other churchy wedding I've been to, Sandra did not go to.

And so that's kind of a gray area, which I would concede if she doesn't go, it wouldn't count.

No, it would not count.

You're right.

Yeah, and as we look historically back in other years,

it would be easier to name some of those weddings that we've been to together as churchy versus not churchy.

There's only the one.

Just this year, there's only the one.

Okay.

So

if I agree that that counts as a visit to church, you're still on the hook for Christmas this year.

That would be correct.

Did you go to Easter?

I don't think so.

Sandra,

you and God both know.

Did you go to Easter or not?

I can't remember if I went to church on Easter this year.

Blessed elder.

I don't think I did because I think I was out of town.

I travel a lot for work.

I know that's not an excuse since I work for the seminary.

I may not have gone to church this Easter.

Chris, do you agree that you have to go for Christmas this year?

I would agree I have to go one more time.

Right.

And if she wants to use it for Christmas, then it would be used for Christmas.

Well, she agrees that Christmas counts, right, Sandra?

Yes.

If he just did Christmas and Easter, that would be sufficient for you?

Um

again, he can swap those out for other services.

Sandra, if the reason that you want him there is that you want him there for two relatively family-oriented

rather than

religiously-oriented services on Christmas and Easter when everybody comes,

Why is it equally appropriate for him to swap them out?

Well, this year in particular is that

assuming that I pass my final examination, that I'll be having my ordination service, hopefully sometime November, December.

And so then that's the issue of is that, does that constitute a worship service?

Wait a minute, Chris, are you thinking about skipping the ordination service?

It would be up to her.

If she wants to save it in her back pocket till Christmas, she can.

But I would go to the ordination service.

And honestly, if that was my third of the year, I would probably go and support her for that.

Probably.

I'm not trying to be unreasonable here.

I would.

You would probably show up for your girlfriend of 10 years becoming ordained as a priest.

I would.

Definitely.

A high archmage of the word and law.

All right.

You're definitely on on for that one.

Sandra, in exchange for this concession of Chris's that he made 10 years ago to attend church arguably twice a year, did you offer any concessions of your own?

I did not have to offer anything, but in my head, I'm not a sports fan.

And so me going to several basketball, football games over the course of a year more than makes up for it.

So, Chris, is sports your church?

I enjoy going to sports games a lot.

So I go to several a year, many a year.

And Sandra comes along?

She does.

And I can only think of two times where I've forced her to go with me.

Every other time has been voluntary.

Well, yeah, she's a human with agency.

It bothers me that you can think of two times that you forced her.

You mean you convinced her against her hesitation, right?

Not that you

forced her at crossbow point or something.

Guilted me.

I guilted her into going twice.

How did you guilt her?

What was the guilt?

What was your guilt crossbow?

Well, there's actually an upcoming event that we have agreed to go to.

And

my logic was, if you don't want to go, you don't have to go.

But I'm going to use that right back at you the next time you want me to do something that I don't want to do that isn't one of the churches.

And you have to live with those results as well.

You know, in a lot of ways, you're right.

Relationships are a series of retributions.

That sounds worse than it is.

To be fair, any trip that we take to, because this is an out-of-town, it's the Louisville Clemson game that's on my birthday weekend that I was going to make other plans for.

But Chris is a good sport.

Anytime I ask him to go

any of the the trips, I think it's usually me saying where we're going, and he goes along.

And this is one of few times where he has asked for us to go on a trip.

And at first, I said no, and then the more I thought about it,

I should go.

Wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute.

Chris, you're talking about the Louisville, what is it?

What is the game?

Louisville versus Clemson, and it's at Clemson, so it'd be a road trip weekend.

And on her birthday weekend.

Yes.

Yes.

That's a pretty big sacrifice.

And if I I could enter one thing into evidence right now.

Please.

For our 10-year anniversary, she was on a girls' trip.

So for her to play up how this is her birthday weekend in a big event, I don't buy that.

That is true.

It's good.

Not only is there a threat of retribution, there is also long-held grudges.

Are you sure you're not married?

Pretty sure.

Chris, is there something beyond just going to sports games out of town town that has the same meaning for you as presumably going to church with Sandra has for her?

Or is it sports?

It's not that I even want something in a reciprocal fashion.

It's

because there isn't anything that I really ask her to do or

guild her to do that much, even including sporting events.

And so, as you kind of hit on earlier, it's a one-sided agreement right now.

She gets these days a year, and I don't really have anything in return, and nor do I want anything in return because her own free will is so important to me.

Yeah, but you just heard her say that she doesn't want to go to these sports games.

Just because she does it without putting up a fuss doesn't mean that it's not a sacrifice for her.

Sandra, would you, I mean, let's set aside the Kentucky, the Louisville-Clemson game.

In general, would you be happy if you never went to a sports game again?

I enjoy tailgating, and I'm probably good with going to maybe one or two basketball games a year, and that's pretty much it.

Okay.

Say

to me and to Chris again

why it is personally meaningful

for him to join you at church twice a year.

And I want you to

think of this as your ordination speech.

I am your congregation, and it is time for you to get up there and tell me I don't have to be afraid of death because there's something else after, and really convince me because I need it.

I need it, Archmage.

I really do.

Let me hear from you

some of that old-time gospel

about what is meaningful about Chris joining you at church

two out of 52 Sundays a year.

So I respect Chris's religious beliefs.

He has none.

He is welcome to believe what he wants.

But the reason why that's important for Chris to sometimes, so whether it's Christmas or Easter or other important,

for example, my ordination service, it's important for me to for him to be there because to me,

are those go beyond just spiritual moments and they're family moments

and if I can't

Chris I consider Chris to be family even though we're not married we've been together for so long that he is my family and at those special family worship moments I want him next to me

Chris

you hear that

you still want to weasel out of this by saying Keith and Mary Beth's wedding counts

before non-God and the listeners to this podcast?

Well, I think we've gotten to the heart of the matter here is that if it's such an important family event,

she can convince me to go that way instead of binding me to this contract and forcing me to uphold that contract and to go.

So, you know, if the contract were to be broken, and she used those sweet words on me to try to get me to go every now and then, you know, that might be a more Christian thing to do.

Whoa.

That was some pretty

Aikido-like using your opponent's strength.

No.

What's Aikido again, Jesse?

Yeah, Aikido is

using your opponent's strength.

You know, the last church I attended, the priest was an Aikido master.

Now, see, that's a church I would like to attend.

Anyway, a deft maneuver to use her own Christianity against her.

But I'm not sure I understand your point.

You're saying that I should strike the contract altogether and have it be an a la carte expression of sincere desire that will move you to join her at church rather than have it be a strict contract.

Is that correct?

That's exactly what I'm saying.

But that might end up with her,

you know, getting...

you to go to church or asking you sincerely to go to church as often as you

sincerely force her to go to basketball games.

I'm just saying more than two, maybe.

You might be better off with the contract.

Well, she could try.

And I'd use that same Akito logic on her, you know, when I need to.

How do you feel when you're sitting in church?

Bored.

And, you know, there's no connection for me spiritually or any other way.

And you guys intend to, I mean, you guys are going to stay together, right?

There are no, I mean, at this point, you think you'll ever get married?

Does that matter to you?

It's not the most, I think it's on the table, but neither of us are, you know, feel any rush to get married.

Sure.

Obviously, sure.

You're only 33.

You're going to live forever

into an everlasting afterlife.

But if you did get married, you would get married at the Louisville Clemson game, right?

Way too soon.

Next year's, maybe.

Final question.

Sandra,

your ordination is going to happen in November of this year?

Hopefully December, assuming I have

one last kind of oral examination next week.

And if I pass that, then I can be ordained as soon as I can plan a service.

So I'm aiming for December.

If I don't pass, it'll be pushed back until I do.

And once you are ordained,

what will your life

look like then professionally within the church?

Like what's are you going to have a congregation?

What's your plan?

No, nothing will really change.

So I currently work for my alma mater Louisville Presbyterian Theological Seminary.

I'm the director of alum and church relations there.

And so the our the local committee on ministry has basically approved that as a position, a non-traditional ministry that I can be ordained into.

Okay, but you're not going to be preaching church every Sunday at a congregation of your own?

No, not at a congregation of my own.

My job requires a lot of travel and as part of that I visit congregations and I'll be a guest preacher.

Sure, you'll do some drop-ins.

Exactly.

Okay, I got you.

And how does the church feel about you being non-married to an atheist?

They actually removed that.

So there used to be in the ordination vows, it's chastity and singleness, fidelity, and marriage.

But the Presbyterian Church removed that language.

It was four,

two years ago, I believe,

basically because that precluded gay pastors from

being married and serving a church.

So they removed that language.

And also, Sandra, forgive me, presumably because they heard how great it was going for you and Chris.

Exactly.

No, so I mean, I think some more conservative

church members may not be thrilled if they, hopefully they don't listen to this podcast,

but I'm not violating any rules of the church.

I think Keith and Mary Beth are going to be so mad that you name them in this podcast.

They're going to drop a dime on you.

And your ordination isn't going to happen.

And then

Chris is going to dance in the grave of your dead God.

That's all I need to hear.

In order to make my decision, I'm going to go into my antechamber chapel of fake internet law

and

offer uh burnt offerings to all of the seven gods of West Rose.

And I'll be back in a moment to give you my decision.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Sandra, how do you feel about your chances in the case?

I think I have pretty good chances.

Hopefully I come off as not being unreasonable in my requests.

I do wish I would have had a chance to discuss why I don't think weddings should count, and it's mainly because there's no other option that basically we don't go to the ceremony, we go straight to the reception, which is actually what Chris would like to do at our friends' weddings, but I've said that that is not polite.

But I feel overall my chances are pretty good.

And Chris, how do you feel about your chances?

You know, I feel like I got beaten up a little bit there, but anyone as wise as to know that a hot dog is not a sandwich, I think, can see that a church service

counts if it's a wedding with all of the other aspects of a church service interwoven into it.

So I'm just appealing to his wisdom and judiciousness for this ruling.

How do you feel about Louisville's chances against Clemson?

You know, I think we have a good shot.

We play him tough every year, and it's a road game, so it'll be tough, but

I'll be there cheering for him.

And celebrating your partner's birthday.

That'll be a small part of it, yes.

It'll be a large part of it.

We'll see what Judge John Hodgman has to say about all this when we come back in just a second.

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Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom.

You may be seated.

Chris, at the Clemson, at the Louisville Clemson game, are you at least going to get her like a cupcake with a single candle on it or something?

Yeah, we'll do something nice or stop for dinner somewhere.

Uh-huh.

On the way to the game?

No, we'll do it beforehand.

Like for wings.

Maybe you could get her one of those soft-serve ice creams that's in a football helmet and she could keep that as her birthday gift.

I like where your head's at.

It's the dessert that is a gift.

Yeah.

And wait a minute, which sport is this again?

Football.

That's football.

All right.

That's the big one, right?

That's what people care about the most.

I have to say, I admire

both of you

for being together for 10 years and having obviously wildly disparate spiritual lives in that

Sandra's spiritual life

is

so developed and meaningful to her that she has devoted her

life to the contemplation

of

God and service.

And

Chris's spiritual life

exists solely around sports, but is equally accepting of the fact that his beloved believes in another dimension of human life that he does not.

And I am truly

an agnostic.

As long as you are not harming anyone else, I think you should just go for believe in whatever you want to believe in, whatever gives you solace and comfort and happiness in the world.

In this way, I'm very much a Satanist,

but no more.

I think I admire Chris as well for having the sheer audaciousness of coming into this fake courtroom,

suggesting that sports of all things

is his equivalent to the deep spiritual life of his beloved partner of 10 years, and that they are equal.

But, of course, they are.

And this is, I think, the crux of the matter, which

frankly,

Sandra,

I think you need to do your homework some more

because your preaching was still a little wishy-washy to me.

Okay.

Because

what this is about, from my perspective at least, which is the correct perspective,

is that you want to share a major part of your life with this dude who is also a major part of your life.

And it does not matter matter to you whether or not he believes in God

or whatever, as we say here in the court of Judge John Hodgman,

but he sees what you're up to

and sees what matters to you.

As is always the case, we hope that the people we share our lives with care about that kind of stuff.

And one

would think that and hope that our partner would be interested.

And Chris, you also presented flawed arguments, though far less wishy-washy, because while it is the case, even Sandra agrees, that you did attend a church service

at Keith and Mary Beth's wedding,

the spirit of the contract is that you spend

two

holy days a year

with Sandra

in what what she calls a family church experience, which really means, I think, church experience with her in a way that is connected with her, not just

a default, oh, I had to go to this wedding, so I guess I get to notch this one off.

And I think that you can't include the wedding, even though that's obviously a church service, because that has nothing to do with the agreement that you guys made with each other.

Right?

That's on Keith and Mary Beth.

If you want to be mad at anyone, be mad at dumb Keith and Mary Beth for making you go to church an extra time this year.

That's not on Sandra.

That's not part of the agreement that you guys made when you entered into this fuzzy non-marriage that you exist in now.

And by the way,

you may notice that I haven't said anything about how this court historically advises people to not cohabitate when they are not married because you get all of the pain of being in a financial partnership without any of the legal protections of actual marriage, but I don't care.

You know what I mean?

You guys are already living in twilight between belief and disbelief.

Let you forever prosper in the ambiguity that you inhabit,

but deal fairly with each other.

Chris, you believe in nothing except your own delusion that Sandra wants to go to these sports games and is doing so voluntarily.

No, sir, she's making a sacrifice

because she knows that it is meaningful to you.

And

tailgates are fun.

Church is not fun.

I fully accept that you are bored out of your mind at church.

And I was surprised that you didn't even attempt to deploy the fact that it makes you feel like a hypocrite because you don't believe or that it offends your sensibilities and your belief in science and the world or whatever you would say as an atheist.

You truly just said, it's boring to me.

And that's honest and that's true.

But sometimes you got to do the boring stuff to support your non-wife in life.

So

I was going to say that this is not a contract because it is one-sided.

Sandra offered nothing formally in return for the demand that you attend church twice a year.

And so there is no contract to enforce because one party is not giving anything up except for her birthday.

Her birthday weekend, she is giving up.

And I am tempted, as so many in religious stories are tempted,

by that snake in the tree, Chris, who is suggesting that we throw out all contracts and agreement and just let it go on a case-by-case basis.

And in fact,

I am going to fall prey to temptation.

I am going to eat of that apple.

Sharing in each other's lives should not be subject to a a contract.

This is not to say that Sandra's request

of Chris sharing in her spiritual and professional life two Sundays out of every year

is unreasonable.

That's perfectly reasonable.

That is, I would say, the bare minimum above one Sunday per year.

Nor is it to suggest that Chris's request that Sandra blow off her birthday weekend for a football game is reasonable.

It is highly unreasonable.

But such unreasonable and reasonable requests are made all the time in an unspoken way in marriage and non-marriage.

And the moment that you codify it into contract is the moment that you start keeping score, holding grudges,

offering retribution, threatening retribution, I should say.

And now I think that you have heard my sermon,

Chris,

I trust and hope in your humanity that you appreciate

that going to church on Christmas and Easter in support of your non-life

is a perfectly reasonable thing to do, and you should not be trying to weasel out of it by counting in Keith and Mary Beth's wedding, or that time you walked by a church or that time you saw a church service on television.

Just do the basic decent good thing.

Do unto Sandra what she is obviously offering to you.

The sacrifice such as her birthday

for the game that is meaningful to you.

Take pleasure in the things that are meaningful to the other person, even if you find them boring.

Therefore, contract annulled, not that there ever was one, I only encourage you to do what all religions, including the Church of Satan, urge you to do, the right thing.

This is the sound of a gavel.

Judge John Hodgman rules, that is all.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Sandra, how do you feel?

I'm 100% satisfied.

How do you feel, Chris?

I'm fairly satisfied as well.

You know, we have contracts broken, which I wanted, and I'll do my best not to weasel out of anything and be a good person right back at her.

That's what I like to hear.

That's a good attitude, Chris.

Good work.

Thumbs up.

I'm going to be rooting for Louisville in the Louisville Clemson game.

Oh, thank you.

No, I'm not going to watch that.

It's boring.

College sports are boring.

Thanks for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast, guys.

You know, we've been doing my brother, my brother, me for 15 years, and

maybe you stopped listening for a while, maybe you never listened, and you're probably assuming three white guys talking for 15 years.

I know where this has ended up.

But no, no, you would be wrong.

We're as shocked as you are that we have not fallen into some sort of horrific scandal or just turned into a big crypto thing.

Yeah, you don't even really know how crypto works.

The only NFTs I'm into are naughty, funny things, which is what we talk about on My Brother, my brother, and me.

We serve it up every Monday for you if you're listening.

And if not, we just leave it out back and goes rotten.

So check it out on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts.

All right, we're over 70 episodes into our show.

Let's learn everything.

So let's do a quick progress check.

Have we learned about quantum physics?

Yes, episode 59.

We haven't learned about the history of gossip yet, have we?

Yes, we have.

Same episode, actually.

Have we talked to Tom Scott about his love of roller coasters?

Episode 64.

So, how close are we to learning everything?

Bad news.

We still haven't learned everything yet.

Oh, we're ruined!

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There is still a lot to learn.

Woo!

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And although we haven't learned everything yet, I've got a pretty good feeling about this next episode.

Join us every other Thursday on Maximum Fun.

Judge Sean Hodgman, you think that's going to work?

No.

I hope that guy goes to ordination.

He better, gee whiz.

I know.

It sounded like he was hesitating.

Look, I haven't been to church for a long time, but just as a social,

I would go to church and I would go to sports just to observe and get to know my neighbors who enjoy that stuff and to see what goes on in those rooms.

I hope that they both approach

their mutual disinterests with that level of curiosity.

I wouldn't just go to sports.

I wouldn't just go to church.

If my beautiful and brilliant wife, Teresa, was taking an improv class, I would go to literally the worst social obligation of all time, the improv class show.

Because I love my wife.

Yes.

And I would be proud of her for dedicating her life to something bigger than her

in this specific case maybe not exactly that but like still dedicating herself to something

and i would go to a t party at the uh church of satan headquarters in poughkeepsie new york peter h gilmore's painted black victorian house called the black house

Not because I love my wife, but because that sounds like a good time.

Yeah, I was going to say, that's not much of a sacrifice.

That's probably not the best example.

We in the Church of Satan don't believe in self-sacrifice.

Our thanks this week to Alex Pang for naming this week's episode Separation of Church and Date.

Thanks, Pang.

It was engineered by Russell Wells at Louisville Public Media.

Our producer, of course, Jennifer Marmer, we want your cases.

Go to maximumfund.org slash JJHO.

That's maximumfund.org slash JJHO and share your case with us.

No case is too big or too small.

We page through every single one of those.

We really appreciate every case submission we get.

So even if you're not sure your case is a winner, please submit it.

We can decide that.

Yeah, that's our job.

Yeah, maximumfund.org slash JJHO.

Feel no shame.

No shame should be felt.

Shame, there's an appropriate amount of shame in life.

That is my religion.

Is that the religion of the New Englander?

Yes,

that's right.

The religion of the New Englander is you don't deserve happiness.

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That's it.

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Church is adjourned.

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