Improvable Cause

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman Podcast.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

This week, Improvable Cause.

Madeline filed suit against her friend Jason.

They formed an improv group together.

Madeline would love to perform a type of improv that's a little out of the box, not normally done in their hometown of Chicago.

Jason insists that this form is silly and is strongly opposed.

Who's right, who's wrong?

Only one man can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom.

What crushed my soul was hanging out with bitter, desperate comics backstage.

They're a different breed than the bitter, yet eager psyches in the wings of an improv theater.

Struggling stand-ups have externalized self-loathing into an art form.

They're a hunching, quaking, unshaven lot.

Bailiff Jesse Thorne, would you please swear the litigants in?

Please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you, God, or whatever?

I do.

I do.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that his entire life is scripted?

I do.

I do.

Very well.

Judge Hodgman.

John Hodgman steps into courtroom.

Oh, sorry, those are the stage directions of my life.

Read the wrong thing.

Everything else, though, is perfectly scripted, such as this.

Madeline and Jason, you may be seated.

And hello, Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

Welcome back to the fake courtroom.

I hope you had a pleasant summer.

I did, but now I'm back like cooked crack.

Let's do this.

All right.

Madeline and Jason, for an immediate summary judgment in one of yours favors, can either of you guess the source of the quote that I quoted as I entered the fake courtroom?

Jason, Madeline has filed suit against you, so you get first choice.

You may guess first or make Madeline.

Guess first.

I will make Madeline guess first.

Thank you.

All right.

And Madeline, am I saying your name correctly?

Is Is it Madeline or Madeline or Madeleine?

It is Madeline.

Maudeline.

Maudlin.

Okay.

Go ahead, please.

You may guess first.

I really thought I was going to nail this one.

I am not sure.

Well, you do have to make a guess, but why did you think you were going to nail it?

I thought it might have to do with the Bat Brothers episode of your podcast.

Oh, because of the improv game, The Bat, that we're about to discuss.

Yeah, that would have been very clever of me had I not been dumb and thought of something else.

I wish I had consulted you first.

But instead, you must make a guess.

Go and guess, please.

Um,

who doesn't like improv?

Um, maybe

uh some sort of stand-up comic who's bitter about improv.

And would you like to name a stand-up comic?

I don't know.

Um

I would say me, but everyone knows that I'm not a stand-up.

I am a storyteller.

Yes, yes, sir.

Judge Hodgman, at the end of the day, aren't we all just storytellers?

Oh, no, no.

There's a very specific genre of storytelling.

I'm a storyteller and humorist.

Who did you say, Mark Maron?

Sure.

Mark.

Put it in the guest book.

All right, Jason, you're up.

You can prolong this no further.

What is your guess?

Some autobiography of a comic I am going to guess, Robin Williams.

All guesses are

wrong.

Yes.

There was no way for even one of them to be right because they're all wrong.

But I fear that maybe, Madeline,

you were not fulfilling the first job of an improv comedian

or an improviser and listening.

Because I don't think you listened to the quote.

The quote was about how stand-ups

have externalized self-loathing into an art form, but improversies,

which I think is what they're called, are a different breed.

They have a bitter yet eager psyche.

So it was, in fact, an improviser that I was quoting

and not a stand-up.

Someone who likes improv

and likes saying abbreviated words for perfectly good words like improvisation.

And who?

You guys are both in Chicago.

If I told you that this was an incredibly accomplished, talented Chicago improver,

who would you guess it was?

I would guess Del Close.

Good one, though.

That's a good guess.

Thank you.

I would guess Mick Napier.

I don't even know who that is.

Scott Adzett, you guys.

Scott Adzett, of course, is an actor and an improver.

and a friend of this court and someone that I got to know on the set of The Remake of Arthur.

I trust you guys both saw the remake of Arthur.

I did on an airplane.

Yeah, we fixed it.

We fixed that terrible movie.

We made a good one.

And Scott invited me to go see him do improv in New York with his frequent scene partner, Mr.

John Lutz, also of 30 Rock.

And I said,

No way am I going to go see you do a dumb purple crayon?

Because

I went to college with a bunch of improvisers and I found those shows to be

dumb and tedentious, largely because they never invited me to play with them.

And I was jealous and mad.

But I went to go see the show, and let me tell you something.

Scott Atzett and John Lutz absolutely changed every opinion I had about improv comedy from bad to good.

All settings were set to good.

They were so, so incredibly talented.

Those guys created a whole play, play, a whole 90-minute play out of one word, which I think was, they needed a suggestion of an album, and the suggestion was Toto by,

no.

What's the album by Toto?

Africa?

Africa.

Yeah.

And the whole, the scene they did was one of the most moving scenes where they were switching, you know, it was about a mother and a daughter getting ready for the daughter's prom, and then they would switch places.

And suddenly one was the daughter and the other was the mother.

And then they were the dates and the mother was a chaperone.

None of it had anything.

Who knows where Toto came into it, but it was an incredible thing to see.

Scott, if I had been quicker on my feet, I might have had Scott Adzett come in and be an expert witness on this podcast.

But I am not an improviser.

I am a sluggish, plodding writer and storyteller.

So there you have it.

No Adzit, you just have me and my justice.

Madeline, you bring Jason before this court because you are both in an improv team in Chicago, which is arguably the Paris of improv, right?

This is the capital of improv, worldwide improv, right?

I think that's fair.

That's right.

Del Close took his mighty hand and smashed it into the earth and pulled up from the bowels of the earth the art form of improv and gave it to Chicago.

It is, Judge Hodgman, the one city where no entertainers can expect to make a living, and thus improvisers are on equal footing with all other forms of comedian.

Yeah, exactly.

All actors, all blues musicians, and all improvisers are all on equal footing in Chicago.

And they're all driving cabs.

In any case, what is the name of your improv team there in Chicago?

It is the Icelandic Ponies.

The Icelandic Ponies.

And do you perform at a theater or what's the deal?

We're a relatively new indie team.

We perform kind of wherever.

There's a lot of smaller venues we frequent.

Gas station bathrooms.

Sure.

Yeah, not far from it sometimes.

Hot dog non-sandwich stands?

Sure.

I like the idea of an indie improv team.

Like you're fighting against those sell-out improv teams from the magnet theater or whatever.

Right.

You guys are non-affiliated with any of the major comedy theaters in Chicago?

Is that what I take that to mean, that indie thing?

Yeah.

We all met through classes at one of the major theaters, but formed our own team outside, as most tend to do.

And what are the major theaters in Chicago?

Obviously,

Second City.

Second City.

There's IO and Prov Olympics where we met.

There's The Annoyance,

and then there's a whole plethora of newer ones, too.

And which one did Delclos found in 1325 AD?

Io, as his face is painted on the inside of it.

Gotcha.

Legendary godfather of improv.

Yes.

One day he just stopped saying no and started saying yes and, and all of a sudden an art form was born.

And he could never say no ever again.

And that's why people could cheat him for a lot of money.

Just go up to him.

Can I have $100, Delclose?

And you go, yes, and also my watch.

He also allegedly ate marijuana for breakfast like it was cereal.

Really?

With milk on it and everything?

Yeah,

I read a book, no, but with a spoon out of a bowl.

Okay.

Like a rice checks or like a cream of wheat?

Like a hot porridge, a hot hemp porridge?

No, more like a rice, like a rice checks.

Children who are listening, ask your parents.

But now back to the case.

So you guys are the Icelandic ponies.

You are not, You're not having any truck with all those corporate improv groups.

You've been together for about how long, Jason?

Oh, I would say we've been together, been together about four months.

Oh, okay, brand new.

And what is your age, Jason?

24.

24.

And Madeline?

25.

25.

So you are relatively recent college graduates, perhaps.

I don't mean to presume your educational level.

And now you've moved to Chicago and you're going to make it big as an improv star in shop.

Is that all right?

Yeah.

Do you desire to be actors or comedians or take this to a professional career or is this just something fun while you're,

whatever you do in Chicago?

We'll say it's something fun right now until we make it big.

That way our dreams don't get crushed.

Right.

Very good.

Well, don't worry.

They'll get crushed.

No matter what happens, they'll get crushed.

Judge Hodgman, my brother is a Chicago-based improviser.

So if you're wondering what people do in Chicago, walk dogs professionally.

Oh, okay, great.

I thought they would dig holes into pizza crusts to make them deep.

Thus ends my cliched knowledge of Chicago.

Oh, also, World's Fairs with serial killers in them.

That's right.

I forgot about that.

That's another Chicago thing.

But let's move on.

So Jason and Madeline, your dispute is over a particular improv game called The Bat.

Madeline, you mentioned it earlier.

Tell us what the bat is and why it is controversial within your group, The Icelandic Ponies.

Sure.

So it's a little tricky to really define a bat.

It seems to have very mysterious origins, according to Google.

There's a form that seems to be a little bit more concrete called the Blind Herald, which is a complicated long form of improvisation done in the dark.

The bat, as I came to know it when I was on a team in DC, is kind of like a single-scene radio type play

where the improvisers would get a word, maybe a genre or a location, sit down, the lights go down, and they kind of would enter maybe with a soundscape, and then there could be narration,

kind of play into an old-timey vibe the way we had done it.

But I don't know that there's a really defined structure of it.

It's improv comedy in the dark.

That's the defining aspect of it.

That's what I believe.

Right.

And that's why it's named after a nocturnal animal, which is a bat.

Yes, sir.

Okay.

And you would like, you did this kind of improv in D.C., our nation's capital?

Yes, sir.

Is that where you're from?

No, I'm from Denver.

Boy, you move all over the place.

Oh, yeah.

You go wherever the improv is.

For sure.

All right.

And you'd like to do it with your new group, The Icelandic Ponies, but Jason says, no way.

Jason, why?

It's not a very commonly accepted form outside of just doing it for fun.

I picture it as locking an audience in and turning the lights off on them after they paid money doesn't really sound like a fun improv experience for them.

Can I ask you a question, Jason?

In your imagination of this scenario, would you just spring this on them?

Oh, yeah.

That's exactly how I picture this is they sit down after they paid money and we say, can we get a suggestion?

Thank you.

Lights off.

So you think they would have paid money for a lights on comedy show, then you would be like, aha, but there's a twist.

Exactly.

Because the way indie teams work, we don't advertise what kind.

There's so many different.

kinds of forms of improv.

We're not advertising like, hey, we're going to do this form tonight.

We usually decide it right before the show.

So we're not advertising that out.

So people would come to see the group and not so much the form that we're doing.

Yeah, if there's anything that an audience going to an improv comedy show desire, it's predictability.

They don't want to be surprised at anything.

They want it just to unfold the way it's supposed to unfold.

Can I add something to this point, though?

Sure.

My college team did the bat, and I felt it was successful.

But we did spring it on the audience and turned the lights off and made sure no lights would show at all and it would be pitch black.

And it got a really sweet, oh, kind of reaction.

And it seemed to be a crowd pleaser.

Yeah, I mean, are you really concerned, Jason, that the audience is going to feel cheated because they don't get to see your weird comedian bodies up there moving around?

Well, I like to think that my weird body is part of the drawing factor.

I'm also afraid I'm not going to be funny if people can't see my weird body.

Elaborate on that.

How weird is your body, and what do you do with it for the laughs?

And you're going to have to describe it because we are currently in a non-visual medium.

I'd say chicken legs, rounder middle, very defined red beard, has a certain style that at least I can be recognized with.

The classic chicken leg, red beard style of comedy?

Yes, exactly.

Are you concerned that

your form of comedy is

so visual and plays so much on your own looks and facial expressions and movement, and that you don't have the same,

let's say, toolbox in a non-visual medium?

Well,

not exactly that.

It's just how long it took me.

Notice how long it took me to come to the word toolbox.

I'm talking about in a non-visual medium.

I'm talking about verbal dexterity is what I was trying.

The words I was trying to find, if I were intelligent.

Go on.

So if we want to use the toolbox analogy, you open a toolbox and you have that first shelf.

It's just like taking that first shelf off and you don't have that anymore.

So you don't have half your tools.

So visualization

and what your stage placement is is half of what we can offer the audience.

But I mean, wouldn't you as an artist want to, if you felt that your verbal dexterity and your imagination expressed through words is not as strong as your physical play, wouldn't that be something you would want to work on?

Oh, absolutely.

And that's why it is best done in a classroom environment or a rehearsal environment, which we have done in the past.

Okay.

And why was that not satisfactory, Madeline?

Modelin.

Moodlong.

Well, I was actually not with Jason when he has done, I believe it was a blind herald, a very complicated, non-lighted form.

And I don't know why that's done in classrooms.

I think it's kind of messy to go through many, many scenes in the dark without much guidance.

I would argue that a really good bat is simple.

It's a lot of good group work and listening, and that it actually

frees us to try different voices, to play a little differently, to work on our listening, as I demonstrated the need for myself earlier.

But I think a lot of people have a negative bat or blind herald experience in class because they're thrown in without practice.

Do you want to become the del close

of non-visual improv?

I think it does have a novelty here.

The fact that it's,

you know,

it seems like it came out of Chicago, but I thought it would have a nice novelty to it.

But it was really shot down by Jason pretty hard.

Jason in particular?

Well, it started with Jason when I approached him about forming this team.

And

he must have informed the rest of the team we ended up forming about my, you know, ridiculous idea idea to do this form, which I had, I had put aside after his reaction.

And so they all decided to, uh, he's been a bit of a ringleader in mocking me about it, I'd say.

This sounds like a fun team.

We have a lot of fun.

How many other people are in it?

Um, there's eight people in it.

Yeah, eight-ish.

Eight total.

So you two plus six.

See, I do math.

Correct.

Yeah, yeah.

What are the names of the other ones?

Spinny, pikey, flabby, harold.

I don't know.

Just tell me their names.

Lexi, Cody.

No.

JT.

They all have those names.

I just,

okay, good.

You're pretty close.

Lexi, Cody, JT, JTE.

And they're all anti-bat.

Are you the only pro-bat?

So I'm.

I feel like none of them have actually explained why they don't want to do a bat.

I think they just have so much fun at this point, wasting our time making fun of it with Jason,

making bat puns, turning the lights off during practice, that That has just become more of a fun thing to do than an actual argument.

Right.

It's a fun way to hurt your feelings.

I got it.

Go ahead, Jesse.

Do you think that it's possible that they're scared to do a bat because they don't think they have what it takes?

I do think that's possible.

You just sharpened the knife for her to plunge into Jason's heart.

Thank you, Billic, Jesse.

Good use of your verbal dexterity toolbox.

That's why I'm called the whetstone of comedy.

So, Jason, how do you respond to that accusation?

I don't think it's a fear thing.

I think it is a nice tool to practice those skills, but it is not something for a new group to put on stage at the very start of their formation.

Plus, at this point, she's right, mocking has become such a

thing of camaraderie in the team that if you take that away, you just take apart part of the team.

And that's not what we want.

Teamwork is an essential part of improv.

And when you take away one of our main insight jokes that we currently have running,

that weakens us.

Yeah, well, it's true that groups do gain camaraderie and social solidification through the outcasting and scapegoating of an individual outlier.

Especially when she enjoys it.

I don't know if I'd enjoy it.

Enjoy is not the correct word.

Okay, so how does this thing, just Jason,

explain to me the haha funny, make fun of the bat.

How does it, what form does it take?

Mostly, it started when we were discussing our first show and what form we were going to do.

So, this is hours before the first performance.

And

we were like, well, we could do Party for Six.

We could do just a montage.

And then I just brought up, well, what about the bat?

And then

sarcastically.

And then people were ha ha.

And then

eventually people went to, well, you do need to work on your non-visual comedy because that was not sarcastic at all.

You're like, what about the bat?

Sarcasm would be, what about the bat?

Yeah,

I can see why you're scared.

Then eventually we just started describing things that were that were like the bat.

And it basically wasted an hour of us doing different descriptions of a bat.

And that's where she's bringing up wasted time is because we spent a whole time we could be practicing on talking about a bat.

like a physical bat.

Like an actual bat.

She mentioned bat puns, and you know this court's position on puns.

Position is no.

Yeah.

So what is a bat pun that Jason was making?

I don't know.

Like, my memory's not great.

Another skill I should work on, but I feel like probably something, you know, like, oh, we don't need to practice.

We'll just wing it.

Ha ha ha.

And the lights turn off or something.

Hang on, hang on.

Stop it.

Stop.

I'm giving you, Jason, five seconds for you to deny that was ever said.

Four, three.

That was never said.

I disagree.

Was it said or not said?

Jason, what's a pun, what's a bat pun that you will stand behind?

I don't stand behind puns.

Well, someone's lying.

It could have been another teammate.

I know there have been bat puns thrown at me constantly.

And this is an effort to make you feel bad?

Do you feel?

I'm not really sure.

I think it's just for their own enjoyment at this point.

How do you feel when they are making fun of the bat, metaphoric and actual?

When it begins, I don't mind it.

I don't mind being the butt of a joke.

It happens a lot.

Then, you know, half an hour, an hour into our practice before, say, our first ever show, I kind of feel exasperated and like nothing I do can get us back on track and that we've wasted a lot of time on a form we're not going to do.

And you guys have been together for four whole months at this point.

So it's not like you have a lot of of data that this is going to continue.

This could just be a fad that's going to disappear in two seconds.

I would hope so.

Is that what you want me to order?

I mean, are you willing to accept no bat

if I prohibit any more references to bat during practice?

Honestly, what I'd prefer is that you order us actually do a bat because we have relatively low stakes in our shows.

They're very small, kind of like indie shows.

And I, you know, I feel like everyone has made fun of it so much that I just want to see them have to do it.

And if it's terrible, they can make fun of it as much as they want.

But so much time has been spent on this form that I feel like we might as well try it.

What's the worst that could happen?

What is the decision-making process for this group generally, Jason?

Mostly a democracy.

I mean, with A people, we can get a majority on most issues that come up.

But clearly, the majority does not want to perform a bat.

Yes.

So, Madeline, do you disagree that this is a a democracy?

It is a democracy.

Do you want this court to overturn a clear and simple seven-to-one majority?

I mean, I don't think it would be bad for this group to have some sort of leadership or some sort of

a little bit more of a

firmer direction.

Maybe a little kick, a little kick would get us moving.

in a direction a little more.

Who should be the leader?

JT, SCSI, Pikey,

swansey as far as i'm concerned anybody but piggy

yeah that's uh that's historically on desert islands that does not go well yeah if i if i could suggest maybe you could replace the bat puns with a chant like kill the pig slit her throat spill her blood

yikes maybe maybe get yourselves a conch

you guys catch the reference these are things from lord of the flies

good good just making sure yeah because if you didn't catch it, it would start to sound pretty weird.

Yeah, that's why I felt like I needed to clarify.

You know, it's hard doing comedy when nobody can see you.

Yeah, and when you can't see each other.

I feel like it's very imaginative,

as you two describe it, or not describe, demonstrate,

and radio has shown that it's a very freeing, beautiful way to do any sort of art form.

You know, Judge Hodgman, I've seen a bat.

I saw the Swarm,

a wonderful legendary improv group featuring Andy Daly, among other people,

perform a bat at the Upright Citizens Brigade Theater in Los Angeles.

It was pretty amazing, I have to say.

In the hands of superb improvisers, it can be a heck of a show.

I'm not so convinced about Jason's assertion that you're leaving things on the table because you are working with the imaginations of the people who are in the house.

If anything, by withdrawing one of their senses, their imaginations have to work even harder.

Exactly.

Jason, how do you respond to this idea that Madeline has that the group should have a leader who has a little bit more autocratic power?

I'm glad you brought that up.

Oh, why?

Because

we...

She approached me originally to help co-found this group.

We each split up members that we wanted to join and reached out to them individually and asked.

But as time has progressed,

things have gone down to like scheduling issues where someone needs to book rooms, someone needs to make a schedule.

And I have given Madeline that opportunity to

take over that responsibility and in essence, be that leader that she is requesting.

But somehow it always comes back to me.

So I am the one booking the rooms.

I am the one scheduling things.

I am the one checking schedule, sending out doodles to make sure that we can have the majority of the group there for rehearsals.

So when she's requesting a leader, that would be me.

So I don't think she wants to put me in charge of deciding this when I am clearly against the bet.

So clearly one of the two of you, though, would be the leader because you co-founded the group together, right, Madeline?

Yeah, but

I have gotten a little busier since then.

Well, right, but there can be, just because you're busy doesn't mean you can't be the creative director and arbiter of which shows you do.

The fact that he's doing all the scheduling, that doesn't mean that he gets to be the leader, that just means he's the factotum.

And by the same token, Jason,

by being the person who makes the trains run on time, you're in the perfect position to seize dictatorial control like it sounds you want to do.

It sounds to me like your group needs a leader, a creative director,

and it's going to be one of the two of you.

And there's only one way to settle this: trial by non-visual improv.

So, you guys

are going to take

four minutes

to do a bat on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Everyone who's driving right now listening to this show, close your eyes and keep them shut so that we can fully engage your imagination.

And you let me know what prompt you need to get going.

Oh, I was afraid of this.

How could you not have known this was coming?

Are you that blind?

You come on my podcast to buzz market your indie improv group, and you think I'm not going to make you do some improv in my court for my own sick amusement?

God, I wish that there was some sort of analogy we could draw with regard to how blind she's been.

As blind as a daredevil from the comic book Daredevil.

I know, but with incredibly enhanced improv comedy skills.

When you get blinded by a radioactive canister of stuff, suddenly you're able to do the Herald really good, and you are thus forced to fight human trafficking in your town.

By the way, your suggestion is an occupation, and the occupation is a crime fighter.

No, no, let them come up with what they want as the prompt.

Okay.

Would you like us to start with some sort of opening or just go into a straight scene?

Look, I don't know.

I don't want to hear.

No one wants to hear an opening.

I can assure you, openings are just a thing that improv people do do to make themselves feel more artistic.

That's fair.

Okay.

Not unlike Matts.

Okay.

Can we just get a suggestion of a location and maybe a genre?

Africa by Toto.

Africa by Toto and a genre?

The works of Toto.

Oh, Toto is the genre?

Yeah, New Wave, I guess.

Yeah.

They also did the soundtrack for Dune, David Lynch's Dune, just if that helps.

Sounds great.

Okay.

Well, you've procrastinated long enough, you now have two minutes.

Okay.

And

lights down.

Well, hello there.

What a nice set of legs on such a strange lady.

Hmm, yes.

It is how I get my customers in the night time.

I knew she had a look about her, something mysterious in her eyes.

Popsicles here, get your popsicles.

Two dollars.

Yes, and

she was selling popsicles with.

Oh my goodness, Jason, you would deny me.

Can I just say that Jason is intentionally throwing this scene?

What?

Are you breaking...

I can't can't even...

I can't see what's going on right now.

Are you breaking the fourth invisible darkened wall?

I would see if you could see Jason's expression that he is intentionally throwing our improv scene.

But you guys aren't supposed to be seeing each other's expressions.

I closed my eyes in the beginning.

Jason, did you ever close your eyes during this?

Yes.

He was staring at me.

How did he throw the scene?

I think he knew that I was attempting, while very, very nervously, to do a film noir-esque aside.

And he yelled popsicles here,

which was a denial of the reality we were trying to co-create.

Are there not popsicle salesmen in a film noir?

Jason, you know what you did.

I can see it in your eye.

First of all, before I even go into my chambers, I'll say you shouldn't look at each other ever again.

And second of all,

I've heard everything I need to, and I've only heard it.

In order to make my decision, I'm going to go fumble my way down this pitch-black hallway into my completely darkened chambers and get into my sensory deprivation tank.

And I will

slowly transmute into a protoplasmic wolfman, a la altered states, and emerge later with my judgment.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Jason, how do you feel about your chances in this case?

Well, after that demonstration of how awfully the bat went,

I feel fairly strong about this.

Wow, Madeline, would you say that that was an illustration of how awful the bat went?

I would say I just, I might have put a nail in my coffin right there.

That was not a great demonstration

of the form.

Usually there'd be...

a little more teamwork and I might not be so completely terrible.

Jason, do you think it's possible that that was a demonstration of what a jerk you are?

Oh, 100%, yes.

Huh.

Hey, Madeline, I may be taking a stab in the dark here.

No pun intended, but

how many dudes and how many ladies are in your improv team?

Actually, we're pretty well balanced.

I think it's a four and four group.

Do you feel like the situation might have been different at all if you, Madeline, were a dude and Jason were a lady?

Um,

possibly.

I don't know.

I think that we've got a good, we've got a lot of strong-willed women on our team.

I think that Jason's just got more of that fun class clown vibe to him, and I've got more of like a frantic,

I don't know,

what's the word?

Mom.

Mom.

Yeah, like a frantic mom feel.

It's just more fun to go with Jason.

Well, we'll see who Judge John Hodgman goes with when we come back in just a second.

You're listening to Judge John Hodgman.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

Of course, the Judge John Hodgman podcast, always brought to you by you, the members of maximumfun.org.

Thanks to everybody who's gone to maximumfun.org slash join.

And you can join them by going to maximumfun.org slash join.

The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by Quince.

Jesse, the reviews are in.

My new super soft hoodie from Quince that I got at the beginning of the summer is indeed super soft.

People cannot stop touching me and going, that is a soft sweatshirt.

And I agree with them.

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John, you know what I got from Quince?

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Oh.

It's like a mid-gray, looks good underneath anything, perfect for traveling.

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You know what I mean?

It's a stink-rejecting technology, John.

It says, get thee behind me, stink.

Yeah, exactly.

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The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by Made In.

Let me ask you a question.

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Let them know Jesse and John sent you.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom.

Ow!

Oh, ah!

It's so dark.

I turned off all the lights.

Can't find my way.

Oh, is this the microphone?

Okay, good.

You may be seated.

So it is unusual for this court to be asked to overturn a clearly democratically arrived at decision in a group of collaborators, eight to no, seven to one against you, Madeline.

It would seem that this is

asked and answered, basically, and as well,

so much

fun-making has been made at the expense of the bat, including loathsome puns, that it is clear that not only is the vote

established, but the feelings are deep and mutual among your co-Icelandic ponies to not do this thing that you ask them to do.

Moreover, it seems to me that you have a difference of creative vision from your cohort that suggests that perhaps you should go and form your own separate sideline project

where you do whatever you want with one or two other people and work on your non-visual improv

and let your group do what it wants to do.

And at the same time, what you want to do, which is

regular lights on improv.

And it would seem that the reasonable order that I should make is simply no bat and also

no more making fun of the bat so that you can be more productive doing your regular thing and then order you, Madeline, to go do a sideline

completely

in the dark, blindfolded improv group over here.

I mean,

history has shown there's room for more than one improv group in Chicago.

But then that thing happened.

And specifically,

I awarded myself the authority to name one of you leader of the group based upon

what happened

in your

on-air, impromptu, by design, improvisational bat.

And immediately,

I did not need to see what was happening to appreciate that Jason was sabotaging the experiment on purpose.

He was not listening.

He was not playing with you.

He made a completely non-sequatorial reference to popsicles for sale,

which is, contrary to his assertion,

nothing that has ever been said in a film noir,

nor anywhere else, for that matter.

I have never heard, I've gone to a ballpark even, and heard a popsicle hawker selling popsicles at the top of his lungs.

Not only is bapa-ba here, bap-pa-ba-hir, a cliché, but a completely imaginary cliché.

One that does nothing to set a reality whatsoever.

Judge Hodgman, is it possible that you've just

never been to a ballpark in old-timey New York where Jason's character was from?

They hadn't even invented ice then.

Never mind, popsicles.

But do you think I'm going to be mean about Jason alone?

Let me tell you something, Madeline,

as a man, me,

who was weaned on the written and radiophonic humor of Garrison Keillor.

I learned and owe a creative and cultural debt to Garrison Keillor that

I will never stop owing and I will never badmouth him.

But I can tell you that in the world of comedy today, you do not want to be compared to Garrison Keillor.

And therefore, you do not want to be doing any

radiophonic style film noir pastiches.

That was a terrible choice.

It was.

You both failed.

But I think,

Madeline, you failed in the eager, perhaps bitter, but eager spirit that Scott Adson outlined at the top of the show via his quote.

And Jason,

you failed by simply being bitter and vengeful and spiteful.

You did not bring an improv ethos to that moment of improv,

but a stand-up ethos, which is to say competitive

and

sabotage-y.

You basically ran over time

just to get her.

Well,

thus, my ruling is upended, and I'm just going to freeform a new ruling, improv style, bebop jazz.

Here it comes.

Madeline, you're the creative director of this organization.

Jason,

you got to play with this group or go do stand-up.

Maybe that's what you want to do with your life.

But in the meantime, you do a good job of scheduling.

And you are the producer.

Those are sounds of gavels, by the way.

Please rise as Judge John Holland.

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, I got more.

I got more.

You keep gaveling.

I thought one gavel is usually how many gavels you do.

Well, that's because, you know why?

Because the spirit of improv

is not

trying new things and different things it is trying new things and different things

and though there are great games that allow for mutual collaborative imaginative play and that have been proven to do that over time such as the herald and such as the blah blah and the dinner for six and the bat or whatever it is

just playing by the same rules as always, you're never going to get anywhere, either creatively or professionally.

So sometimes you got to throw in an extra gavel just to keep it fresh and keep it interesting and try new things.

That's just an example of it, Jesse.

Don't go.

And with that in mind, right,

I think that you have to.

If the idea comes to your mind in improv,

you have to try it.

And so

To get this troop working together, cohesively, productively, and without any of this bitterness.

It's clear that you got to get this bat out of your system at least once.

And then

see how it goes.

And then

take a Democratic vote as to whether to ever do it again.

And I would say, don't call it the bat.

Madeline, you're the creative director now.

Devise some new non-visual lights out game to play.

Create different rules.

Perhaps the mole.

The name of the blind animal doesn't matter.

It's going to be called the Madeline or the Madeline and Jason or Sabotage or something else.

Don't do film noir pastiche.

Don't do other people's games.

I mean, to learn, yes.

But if you want to, I think that there is absolutely something you you can do in non-visual improvisation.

And I wouldn't be a podcaster if I didn't believe in it.

And of course, there is the great on-hiatus improv, non-visual podcast, Superego, and the current non-on-hiatus improv, non-visual podcast, Spontanian Nation with Paul F.

Tompkins.

Listen to them.

Listen to him.

Think of what would work, what would bring chills and excitement out of an audience and develop a new game and call it whatever you want and schedule it.

And everyone has to go along with this and we'll put it up on the maximumfund.org page and we'll advertise it and we'll get everyone there to go and we'll get feedback from them and you will feel how it is in the room when the lights go dark and an audience, Jason, is asked to play with its mind as much as its dumb eyes.

Do it one time.

We'll see how it goes.

Then there'll be a vote.

And whatever the vote is, you'll never speak of it again.

This now is the final sound of a gavel.

Judge Sean Hodgman rules that is all.

Please rise as Judge Sean Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Jason, how do you feel thus rebuked?

I'm a little disappointed with it, but

in the end, I feel like the judge is correct and that we should be trying new things and always trying to grow as performers.

So give it one shot and then we'll go back to never speaking of it again.

And I mean, you really earned it, right, Jason?

Yeah, exactly.

How are you feeling, Madeline?

I'm feeling really good.

I feel like a little nervous now that the stakes are a little bit higher for this bat performance or to be named performance,

but I'm excited.

Jason, are you going to torpedo this thing once you get out in stage in front of 12 people rather than the tens of thousands of people that you just sabotaged your friend in front of?

On the spot?

No, I would never do that in front of a paying audience.

It's true.

Jason's really great on stage.

Well, we wish you all the best.

Thanks for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

You know, we've been doing my brother, my brother, me for 15 years.

And

maybe you stopped listening for a while.

Maybe you never listened.

And you're probably assuming three white guys talking for 15 years.

I know where this has ended up.

But no.

No, you would be wrong.

We're as shocked as you are that we have not fallen into some sort of horrific scandal or just turned into a big crypto thing.

Yeah, you don't even really know how crypto works.

The only NFTs I'm into are naughty, funny things, which is what we talk about on my brother, my brother, and me.

We serve it up every Monday for you if you're listening.

And if not, we just leave it out back and goes rotten.

So check it out on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts.

All right, we're over 70 episodes into our show.

Let's learn everything.

So let's do a quick progress check.

Have we learned about quantum physics?

Yes, episode 59.

We haven't learned about the history of gossip yet, have we?

Yes, we have.

Same episode actually.

Have we talked to Tom Scott about his love of roller coasters?

Episode 64.

So how close are we to learning everything?

Bad news.

We still haven't learned everything yet.

Oh, we're ruined!

No, no, no, it's good news as well.

There is still a lot to learn.

Woo!

I'm Dr.

Ella Hubber.

I'm regular Tom Lollum.

I'm Caroline Roper, and on Let's Learn Everything, we learn about science and and a bit of everything else too.

And although we haven't learned everything yet, I've got a pretty good feeling about this next episode.

Join us every other Thursday on Maximum Fun.

You know what my biggest concern is, Judge Hodgman?

Yes, and?

Concern?

Well, you know,

folks who listen to this program, they can't see us while we're doing it.

And sure, I mean, that's essentially doing humor with one hand tied behind our backs.

But.

Yeah, because no one can see my crazy chicken legs or my beard comedy.

Yeah, but folks who've come to our, hey, I'm doing beard comedy right now, Judge Hodgman.

Let's not cast aspersions upon beard comedy.

No, believe me, your beard is a magnificent comedic device and beautiful, beautiful, almost living creature.

Well, I guess my concern is that if we turned the lights on metaphorically, if people could see us, it would be, I mean, it might still be kind of funny, but it would be almost too sensual to be funny.

Yes.

I and

that was my sensual yes and.

Especially when we're all oiled up like this.

Mine is an oil.

That's a natural secretion.

Oh, cool.

But you wouldn't know because you can't see it.

And that means your brains are working overtime to erase that image from your head.

It's just a different dynamic of comedy.

Thanks this week to Angela Christine Fraser for naming this week's episode Improvable Cause.

Thanks, Angela.

Our show engineered by Daniel Musisi at WBEZ in Chicago.

And our producer is Jennifer Marmer, of course.

You can hashtag it JJHO on Twitter if you like Twitter.

You can follow John at Hodgman and me at Jesse Thorne.

By the way, I don't have a blue check mark next to my name, but trust me, it's me.

Yeah, you know, and also, can I just point out I'm on Instagram.

Yeah.

And my handle on Instagram is John Hodgman, J-O-H-N-H-O-D-G-M-A-N, because someone's been squatting on Hodgman forever,

which I thought would be a dream, but turns out to be a nightmare.

And I, I, I, hey, Instagram, I would like to be verified on this thing.

I'm seeing all these people.

I'm verified on Twitter.

Jesse should be verified on Twitter for sure.

But it's like,

I don't want to name names, but I'm seeing some people who are verified on that, whom I know personally, and I'm not even sure they exist.

But follow me on Instagram.

We have a good time over there at John Hodgman.

And of course, you can also follow me on Tumblr, which is johnhodgman.com, which is my regular website, where you can find all the details of our now no longer forthcoming live Judge John Hodgman shows because we just got back and we had a great time.

I didn't even know there was Verified on Instagram.

They should Instagram verify me.

Put.this.on.

That's my name, not just an order.

Okay, gotcha.

Come on, Instagram.

You're in contempt of court right now.

If you're out there listening, and I know you may or may not be, please do it.

We should thank all of the kind folks who came out to the Judge John Hodgman tour across this great nation of ours and internationally in the great nation of London.

That was such fun.

All of it was the best and I enjoyed, as always, meeting all of the humans.

I am a robot now.

I've been replaced for some reason.

No, but in all sincerity, you know, the reason that

I

first started doing this show was the opportunity to be able to talk to people all over the world and get to know them with my friend Jesse Thorne by my side.

And it was so fantastic to be able to

put faces to names and to meet people in person.

I hope that we get a chance to do more live shows down the road in the future of Robotom.

Yeah, I think we probably will.

We'll get back out there.

Affirmative.

If you have a case for Judge John Hodgman, which I bet you do, I mean, think about it really hard.

Do you got something?

Yeah, you should just share it with us.

Don't be worried about it.

You know, just do it.

Go to maximumfund.org/slash jjho.

That's maximumfund.org/slash

H O.

I should also thank Summertime Funtime Bailiff Monty Belmonte for filling in so ably while

you, sir, were away in your vacation paradise.

But, you know, as they say, wash the throne.

I'm back and I'm better than ever.

You come for the bailiff.

You better not miss.

Yeah, exactly.

Precisely.

We'll talk to you guys next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Hot Dog is not a sandwich.

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