Object the Halls With Boughs of Justice

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman Podcast.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

This week, Object the Halls with Bows of Justice.

Mark and Hal of the podcast We Got This released an episode naming a popular Christmas movie as the definitive best Christmas movie.

Immediately thereafter, Mark regretted the choice and has tried several times since to convince Hal to re-evaluate.

While Mark seeks to get the decision reversed, Howell would like to prohibit Mark from ever bringing it up again.

Who's right?

Who's wrong?

Only one man can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom.

Just once, I'd like a regular normal Christmas.

Eggnog, a freaking Christmas tree, a little turkey.

But no.

I got to crawl around in this mother-friending recording studio at Max Fund headquarters in L.A.

Bailiff Jesse sitting directly across from me in this small room.

Swear them in.

Please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you, God, or whatever?

I do.

I do.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite his nonsensical insistence that the best Christmas movie is Jaws?

I do.

I do.

Very well, Judge Hodgman?

It is the best Christmas movie.

It's a Christmas in July movie.

Well, this is a Christmas in July episode.

That's why it's so perfect.

Curiously apropos.

Mark and Hal, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment in one of yours favors.

Can either of you name the piece of culture that I referenced as I entered the courtroom?

I don't know who's taking whom to court here.

I've forgotten.

I think this is Hal speaking.

Yes, this is Hal speaking, Your Honor.

I believe that this is a suit countersuit.

Right.

Mark is seeking to overturn overturn the judgment that we've already established and re-established.

I'm seeking a junta relief, not only from him, but from his girlfriend, to stop pestering and bullying me about the decision we've already made.

Well, it sounds that you are the defendant because you are so very defensive.

Very.

So I will allow you to take the first guest or

throw it over to Mark Gagliardi, your co-host on the We Got This podcast, and see if you can glean any information from him.

What is your choice?

How?

Levlin.

I've listened to the show for so long I'd feel bad if I didn't take a stab at it first.

Well, okay, good.

It's honorable.

I'm going to guess it's from Die Hard 2, Die Harder.

Interesting choice.

What about you, Gagliardi?

I am going to guess that it is from

the new

How the Grinch Stole Christmas.

So

right now we have Hal in studio with me and Jesse here in Los Angeles.

Yeah.

One of the rare, wonderful miracles of Christmas in July.

True.

And Gagliarti, you are there in New York City, so I couldn't quite hear you.

Did you also guess Die Hard 2?

I did also guess Die Hard 2, Die Harder, yes.

All guesses are right.

Hey, all right.

Another Christmas in July miracle.

That's fantastic.

So it's a wash, and we have to hear the case after all.

I'd like to make an appeal just starting out.

You may.

Go ahead.

I feel like

moving fair enough.

Are all Die Hard movies set at Christmas?

No, only the first two.

Okay.

I don't know about the last two.

I think they're just set in Russia and the internet.

And Justin Long.

Okay, the one I saw was the one with Justin Long pressing away from the freezer.

That was Live Free or Die Hard.

Great, yes.

Enhance, enhance, enhance.

We got him.

That's my impression of Justin Long's charming performance in that film, let me be clear.

Look, Justin Frank.

He's a delight.

Justin was the mech to my PC, and he always shall be, and I adore him personally and professionally.

Is Christmas in July a thing that you recognize, Hal?

I do only because I work for a rewards site where people talk about, they start saving money now for Christmas time, so it's already sort of in the air in the savings and deals community.

Gagliardi, do you recognize that term, Christmas in July?

I don't know if this has any currency at all.

I'll tell you how I know about it.

That first year after we bought a new car and we got a year free of satellite radio, the only radio station I listened to was the classic old timey radio.

And in July, they did a month-long Christmas in July special.

Radio Classics 118.

A great station.

So you know it well.

118.

My first introduction to the Aldrich family.

I'm disappointed that you guys weren't spending your time listening to Babylon, the youth talk station on which I was a substitute host.

Really?

Yeah.

When was this?

Like the first year that XM Satellite Radio existed.

Fantastic.

No youths listened to it.

No.

Exclusively weird truckers.

That's right.

Just weird truckers were the only audience, the least weird of whom was a guy who was driving Lisa Loeb's tour bus.

Oh, how did you find out that he was listening?

He would call in.

We actually had so few callers.

I can't talk real loud.

Lisa's sleeping right now.

We had to establish a rule that each person could only call in once per show

because people would call in once and then they'd call in a couple hours later in the second topic, you know.

It's Lisa Loeb's truck driver again.

She's starting to wake up.

I wanted to give you an update.

I'll hang up, listen to your answer.

Listen, you guys, this is something you don't know.

Lisa Loeb has sleep apnea.

I got to keep a close eye on her, make sure that the CPAP machine is working.

But But you guys really get me through some long hauls.

My boss's mom was the lady who says, you're the weakest link.

Goodbye.

Really?

Wow.

And at the time, that was prime cultural currency.

That's a big deal.

Now we can't remember her name.

Nope.

Nope.

I can't even remember my boss's name.

I can't even remember what the name of this podcast is.

Is it Judge Sean Hodgman?

I better take control of this courtroom.

So for those of you who are unfamiliar, and I hope that there are not many of you, but still I must introduce, our dear friends and fellow Maximum Fun podcast mates,

Hal Lublin and Mark Gagliardi,

who are the co-hosts of a great podcast called We Got This.

And that is a podcast also of judgment and debate, where you guys will take a topic such as best Halloween candy or which is better, Star Trek or Star Wars, and those are the ones I remember because I was a guest on them.

And any other thing like that, and you debate it and you come to some binding answer.

Is that correct?

Yes.

Yes, but it feels at this point as if we have in at least one episode failed.

So we are here today for your ruling.

Right.

So this is specifically a question about

holiday-themed movies.

And you guys had an episode about which is the best Christmas movie.

Is that correct, Mark?

Yes.

Yes, Your Honor.

And you guys came to a conclusion.

We did.

What were the two contenders for best Christmas film of all time?

A Christmas story and it's a wonderful life.

And who took up a Christmas story?

That would be me, Your Honor.

Hal.

Thank you very much.

Hal took up a Christmas story, the Peter Billingsley film from 1983.

83.

Yes.

Based on the work of essayist Gene Shepard and storyteller.

Tail spinner Gene Shepard.

Also the inspiration for maybe my favorite movie ever, A Thousand Clowns.

Is that so?

Yeah, we're going to go.

Oh, Gene Shepard, not the cloud.

Gene Shepard, not the movie Christmas Story.

Right, which came after A Thousand Clowns.

No, it was about ⁇ it was the protagonist of A Thousand Clowns based on Gene Shepard.

Oh, no kidding.

Yeah.

Oh, how about that?

And now we also have another movie called It's a Wonderful Life, directed by Frank Capra, starring Jimmy Stewart.

And Gagliarty, that was your position.

You liked that one better.

Yes, Your Honor.

And you guys had a long talk about it.

We did.

Well, we eliminated many other movies.

Our long talk about those two pitted against one another was about 12 minutes.

Oh, okay.

What were some of the movies that you eliminated?

Unfortunately, Die Hard.

Right.

We eliminated White Christmas, Miracle on 34th Street,

National Lamputant's Christmas Vacation,

Holiday Inn,

Christmas in Connecticut.

Santa Claus the movie.

Ah, I remember that one.

Elf.

Santa Claus versus the Martians.

Santa Claus versus the Martians.

And you disqualified all of those on aesthetic grounds?

They simply were not as good as the two movies that became the final contenders?

Or they were not,

how do you say, Christmassy?

Well, they were excellent films, but like in the Olympics, there can only be one gold medalist.

So

we had to make a determination.

We mean no disrespect to any of those movies.

Well, maybe a little bit.

But it does make it very confusing that you're now in my courtroom because it sounds like you came to a a final decision on your podcast.

That decision was,

Mark?

That a Christmas story would

receive the honor of best Christmas movie of all time.

I can hear you saying it's difficult for you to even say those words.

It is.

Because you have not accepted the decision of your own podcast, and now you come to my courtroom to settle this dispute between you.

Shameful.

Your Honor, what happened was we, our one-year anniversary episode, episode 53, which came out

later in the year in March.

Available over at maximumfun.org.

That's true.

The focus of that episode was to overturn a decision from the previous year.

I went to bat strongly for

overturning Best Christmas movie.

Hal went to bat for overturning our episode in which we determined that the worst Christmas song of all time was Paul McCartney Simply Having a Wonderful Christmas Time.

And that's the song that goes,

simply having a wonderful Christmas time.

That's correct.

Simply having a wonderful Christmas time.

Please don't simply having a wonderful Christmas time.

You see my frustration, sir.

Da-da-da-da.

Oh, God.

I don't remember any more of it.

It's not his best work.

Let's just stipulate that it's not Paul McCartney's best work.

Yeah.

You went toe-to-toe with Hal over Best Christmas movie, How Got His Way, a Christmas Story.

Then you went toe-to-toe with Hal again

about which ruling to overturn and Hal Got His Way again.

Based on an impasse that we had that resulted in a 50-50 game of chance at the end of the episode, which I don't think is an acceptable way to determine something this important.

Objection.

What is the 50-50 game of chance?

Hal picked a number, made me guess it, and I got it wrong.

Objection.

So

we were at an impasse, the impasse's name being being Mark Gagliardi, who refused to yield simply in terms of being obstinate, almost going as far as saying, I will continue to podcast for you.

Ford ruled.

Go on, Hal.

Thank you.

So

in an attempt to try to...

What did he say?

He would quit podcasting.

Basically, no, I will keep going.

Like, he's like, I will not stop.

He will essentially filibuster the podcast

in the sake of getting his way.

He's willing to game the system.

He's willing to game the system.

So, for example, if he loses fair and square

with the popular vote, he's going to try to turn a super delegate like me.

He will refuse to allow a vote for cloture.

Yes.

That's right.

Exactly.

Which,

when does the new maximum fund podcast vote for cloture start?

And what is it about?

John, it's about Robert's Rules of Order.

You know that McElroy's are going to do a Robert's Rules of Order podcast before tomorrow now.

All right.

Well, it just sounds to me, Mark, like Hal is better at this than you.

Well, I can tell you how we settled it.

Just to

let that

sit in on Mark for a second here?

You know what?

I want to keep this going.

I want to win based on facts and not on facts.

Hal, on our podcast, we let each other talk.

What happened on this one?

What happened on this one was I texted our producer, Ken Plume.

Right.

I said, give me a number between one and ten.

Right.

I received back, I believe, the number five.

It's literally between.

That's about as much between as you can get.

I said, Mark,

here's how we'll settle this.

I've received a number from our producer, Ken Plume, between one and ten.

All I'm going to ask you is whether that number is odd or even.

So you have a 50-50 chance of getting it right.

And tell me what you think.

He said, even.

Got it wrong.

And our decision for that episode as a gimmick was,

let's overturn one thing that we think we got wrong from the previous year.

Once that's done, the entire first year is closed and sealed.

We agreed to those terms.

But even though he lost, I'm still harassed not only by him, but by his lovely girlfriend.

Your honor, let's not bring significant others into this.

No, I'll be honest.

If I may have a moment to speak.

All right, one moment.

Finally, a chance for you to speak on this show.

Exactly.

I would just like to reiterate that a 50-50 shot,

however graphically and grandiosely Hal wants to describe this 50 shot he gave me, it was essentially a coin flip.

He really did take us down a long road for that story about how Ken Plume texted a number.

I feel like that whole story may have just been buzz marketing for Ken Plume.

I'm happy to buzz market the great Ken Plume.

That's not the issue.

It's just like,

I don't understand.

What are you trying to invent a new kind of coin toss here?

I was trying to come up with an equitable way where it's a 50-50 shot.

Let's try and get past this impasse.

You don't have to pick one to 10.

You know that, right?

Like, it could have just been any number, and then is it odd or even?

Absolutely.

And that was what he picked.

That's what he picked.

I can't control him.

So let me just make sure that I perfectly understand what happened was.

You came to an impasse about which ruling you were going to overturn.

Correct.

Through Plumie's incredible decision-making machine.

It arbitrarily went to Hal, who overturned War's Christmas song.

Yes.

So simply having a wonderful Christmas time is no longer the Worst Christmas song?

Correct.

It's been replaced by Christmas Shoes.

What's that one?

It's a terrible song about a woman who sees a child buying shoes in a store for their dying parents.

It's just like the worst Christmas

sorry.

Thank you.

This, this, exactly, Your Honor.

Hal's insistence that we got Simply Having a Wonderful Christmas Time wrong, his vehement insistence on that is what led to us

sacrificing so that Barabbas could be exonerated.

We put the Jesus of It's a Wonderful Life up on a cross, and I don't think that's fair for Hal to do.

Objection, I don't know who Barabbas is.

You wouldn't.

Thank you.

And you are not qualified to say anything about Christmas or our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ anymore.

I am married to a Presbyterian.

All right, you're back in.

Thank you.

Look, if it's all about whose Christmas prowess is higher, not only did I celebrate Christmas in July, two years ago, I fully decorated my apartment for it.

Fantastic.

Were you listening to Classic Radio 118?

I was.

118.

I don't want to say that I'm prejudiced, but I like you better.

I do too.

In any case.

I like how better.

Let me.

So you had agreed to this method of choosing the Ken Plumy miraculous texting coin toss, right?

Only because we were an hour and some odd minutes into a podcast, and at this point, this impasse looked like it would make our listeners uncomfortable if it lasted any longer.

So under duress, I agreed to.

Under unfair duress?

Under unfair duress, as we were this late into our podcast.

Would you say that it was sort of like a hostage situation?

Like you were under interrogation and you were ready to admit to anything?

I would have admitted to anything in the world at that point.

And then you agreed that at the end of that, that the decision would be sealed.

I believe we agreed early in the episode.

Hal is.

Just say yes.

You knew what the.

Why am I even hearing this?

Your Honor, under torture, at a certain point, you forget all things that have come before.

And I assure you that at this point in the conversation, it was torture.

All right, listen.

That's how winners win and Hal won.

Yeah.

Your Honor, if I may.

No, you may not.

Thank you.

Mark.

Yes, sir.

Give me one compelling reason that I should unseal the we got this

settled law and revisit this issue.

The one that you think will be most meaningful to this court.

Because

we are podcasts, both of ours, that deal in judgment and rulings.

And I'm sorry, is this a human talking or a computer?

This is a human talking.

As junior podcasters on the Maximum Fun Network, I wouldn't say that.

To your.

I'll stipulate to that.

We realized that we were in over our heads and we wanted to defer to your mastery, your skill, your handsomeness, and your brain, sir.

All right.

The court does not take well to flattery.

Facts, sir.

Facts.

And as well,

you know, what the court responds to is substantive arguments on behalf of the matter at hand that you feel that an egregious misjustice was done.

I do.

Look, I'm not going to write this for you because the fact of the matter is, of course, I'm going to open up the seal and revisit this, not only because

we would have nothing to do,

but also because

the plumy texting coin toss machine is bogus.

That should never have happened.

No one should have agreed to that.

I agree.

The whole premise of your show is to work it out, talk it out, and come to an agreement.

To fight each other with logic words.

And so I do not consider it settled in any way.

And also,

simply having a wonderful Christmas time is the worst Christmas song, period.

It is worse than Christmas shoes.

Your Honor, I beg you to give a listen to Christmas Shoes.

Judge Hodgman, do you need me to just text Ken Plume real quick and run this all by him?

Why is that?

Oh, well, as far as I can tell, he's the ultimate arbiter of all things on your podcast.

Is that not true?

No.

It's not just Ken Plume's weird number decision.

I can't remember what the text description on your podcast says.

Doesn't it say

two guys argue for a while and then Ken Plume texts them?

You know, that's an older, that's an older liturgy of Plumesmas.

that celebrates the god Plume who decides from North Carolina using text to communicate his will.

But in the new tradition, it's much more secular, and we actually just deal with each other personally.

Although Ken Plume did send in

a letter stating his position, shall we review it?

Yeah, what does Ken Plume's letter say?

I have been the producer.

of We Got This with Mark and Howe since the show's inception over a year ago.

More importantly, I have been a friend to Mark Mark and Howe, and my respect for them both on a personal and professional level is immeasurable.

Having said that, let me state in no uncertain terms that Mark is wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong.

To set this precedent of reversing a We Got This decision, if the court rules in Mark's favor in this case, is to undermine the very bedrock upon which the show stands.

The decisions of We Got This are final.

They are determined through lengthy, deliberative discourse and, when there is a disagreement between Mark and Howell on a given topic, compromise.

But again, when an episode ends, a decision has been reached, and the topic is closed, that is the remit of the show as created by Mark and Howell.

As a producer, I must stand with the integrity of the house that Mark and Howell have built, and I sincerely hope the court sees fit to preserve that integrity, because Mark is wrong.

I'm surprised to hear that Ken Plume's email to the court is so hyper-loquacious.

Well,

he stands in the long tradition of anyone writing a letter to this show.

Loquacity is the soul of letters letters to us.

And we thank you all for your letters.

In any case,

so Ken is your producer.

Yes.

And he's fired.

Your Honor, may I respond to Ken's?

No, you may not.

I'm responding right now.

It's my courtroom.

Yes, sir.

I'm throwing this letter out.

Fair enough.

Ken is fired until I rehire him.

Because what you did on your show goes against the very principles that Ken lays out in this letter.

You did not reach a decision through

deliberation and at the end compromise.

You flipped a coin and you were wrong.

Simply having a wonderful Christmas time is the worst.

Put that back in the seal.

Now,

in the seal.

When you finish a podcast, do you take the cassette tape that you recorded it on and feed it to a seal, and that's how we know?

Yeah.

That it shall never be revisited?

Yes.

Well, I'm reaching down this seal's throat, and I'm bringing out the Christmas movies.

Sorry.

Oh, the seal's here, Your Honor, is a character of evidence.

Now, I see you have some other evidence that you sent in specifically relating to

Mark and Juliana's bullying of you, Hal?

Yes, so, Your Honor, after we recorded the initial episode of Worst Christmas Movie, I immediately got a text from Mark saying, I feel like we made a mistake.

It's there

in evidence.

To which my response was,

this is a decision we make.

It's not always your favorite that wins.

It's what we agree upon.

Then I get a text almost immediately thereafter from his girlfriend harassing me for the same decision, and has done so in person as well.

She's a lovely person, but she feels very strongly about this, which I understand.

That's our best topics are based on things that people are passionate about.

But also, we made the decision.

And

you have to accept that in any of these decisions that you make, they're going to be controversial.

Of course.

Right?

And so there will be blowback.

Always.

And you can't take that heat.

Maybe you shouldn't be doing a podcast.

Yeah, maybe you should get out of the podcast kitchen.

Yeah, that's right.

Where we're cooking up these great podcasts.

That's right.

I want to cook out podcasts with you guys.

Well, I throw out that evidence, too.

I'm sorry.

Fair enough.

Because what you're just saying is people are mad at me because I won.

Well, Your Honor.

You can't take that.

You can't take anything.

I'm fine.

I invite people to be passionate and give us feedback.

What I do not expect is my co-host to then turn on a decision we've made together.

Something that

I feel also belies.

As I said, it was not a decision you made together.

It was a decision you left to Ken Plume.

No, no, no.

The initial decision.

The second episode, I feel like Mark is mischaracterizing.

You may notice that the flag in this court does not have gold fringes on the edge, which means it is not an admiralty court, which means it does not recognize the godhood of Ken Plume.

Yeah, he's

wondered what those gold fringes meant.

He's only a god at at sea.

That's right.

You want to take this case to international waters?

That's a different podcast on the Max Fun Network.

Sure.

I'm Judge John Hodgman.

I don't want to hear any more out of you about how this is unfair.

You came here, and I'm telling you right now, we got to revisit this.

Absolutely.

I'm willing to throw it.

And I'm not saying, and I am impartial.

Sure.

I'm not saying that I'm necessarily going to reverse the decision, but you guys have got to come to an actual decision now.

Mark.

Yes, sir.

Why

do you feel that the decision to honor

a Christmas story as the best Christmas movie is wrong?

Well, a few reasons.

One, I have a personal affinity for both films, more so for It's a Wonderful Life, and I am not alone.

If you look at the top nine movie ranking websites, Rotten Tomatoes, Entertainment Weekly, IMDb, Timeout, Ranker, Business Insider, Movie Phone, Microsoft Network, and Access Hollywood.

Oh, God, I love the rankings on Microsoft Network.

I know they're huge.

Aren't they great?

All nine of them.

Rotten Tomatoes, EW, and IMDb being the most viewed and voted on.

All have, it's a Wonderful Life ranked number one.

Can you hear Hal's eyes rolling right now?

I can.

Rotten Tomatoes has Christmas Story ranked 11.

Entertainment Weekly has it at 2, and the rest of them are 2, 3s, 5s, all in the top 5.

Mark, quick question.

Without fail, yes.

In the Yahoo directory, which of these movies has a little pixelated pair of sunglasses next to it?

Also, if I may.

Well, wait a minute.

You may not.

Yes, sir.

Because everything you just told me is garbage.

What you said, first of all, was I like it better, which is pure anecdotal evidence, and some other people like it better, which is anecdotal evidence.

Then you tried to flip it to science,

but

you, I think, would be the first to admit that while more people on Rancor and the Microsoft network probably rate Howard 100 better than classic old-timey Radio 118, that does not necessarily make it better.

Or the definitive cable or satellite radio show.

May I give you Howell's quotes on this, in which he seems to claim that

It's a Wonderful Life is the better movie?

You mean give out-of-context quotes?

Sure.

This dot dot dot movie, dot, dot, dot, great.

I listened and I wrote these down verbatim.

It is a great reminder to have faith in human beings and that how you view the world dictates what you will pull out of it.

Hal on a Christmas story, it's like a comfy robe that when you put it on, it feels like you're wearing a hug.

Now, I ask you, sir, what is more important, faith in humanity and a positive worldview, or Hal Lublin's comfy pajama sofa attire.

Exactly already.

Yes, sir.

First you offer anecdotal evidence and I throw that out as nonsense.

Then you enter in these, I mean, rankings.

Rankings, sir.

Yes, sir.

Like when, at what point did you feel that your survey of Yelp reviews of movies was going to have any sway in my courtroom?

Yeah, I've read Yelp reviews here in Los Angeles.

All we're determining here with your Yelp review survey is which of these movies has easier parking.

Right.

And And more generous portions.

Yeah.

By the way, Yelp reviews are my summer reading.

They're

my favorite short stories by unreliable narrators.

Do you look for places that have low ratings or high ratings or you don't care?

Doesn't matter.

Every one of them is.

And this is why I have to throw out your evidence because every one of them is an insane person who has time on their hands, whose opinion I do not trust.

No offense to all of our listeners, and I look forward to reading the Yelp reviews of this podcast going forward.

Then you try to make an argument that Hal himself argued in favor of It's a Wonderful Life,

thus negating his final decision that he prefers or believes that a Christmas story is the best Christmas movie.

I don't get it.

You are ignoring

the

crux of this

with malice and intention, as far as I'm concerned.

Because I think you're afraid to admit

what is plain on its face.

Mark?

Yes.

A Christmas story is a more Christmassy movie than It's a Wonderful Life.

It's a Wonderful Life has a lot of holidays in it, does it not?

It does?

Hmm.

What are they singing in the last scene of that movie?

Auld Lang Syne.

Yeah, oh, that famous Christmas Carol?

Fair point, Your Honor.

Yeah, it was a good one.

So, knowing that that's where I'm coming from,

and I'm making a devil's advocate argument here.

I'm not saying which side I'm taking, right?

But you have to admit that there is a deficit of Christmass

in It's a Wonderful Life.

How do you respond to that?

I would offer that Christmassiness is at its core love of family, love of community,

and that is what is celebrated in this movie.

Boy, oh boy, talk about war on Christmas.

You're like a plain red Starbucks cup.

You're like, Christmas is everything.

Christmas is throwing a rock into the window of an old house.

Christmas is doing the Charleston on a brand new basketball floor that comes apart and everyone falls into the pool.

If Jimmy Stewart and Donna Reed are doing it, then it is.

At the heart of Mark Gagliardi's definition of Christmas is how many days the oil burned for.

Now, Hal, I got to put it on you now.

Yes, Your Honor.

Because

I have already made the argument for you.

Yes.

And established what this court is looking for, which is the establishment of Christmasseness,

right?

Yes.

So you don't need to make that argument about a Christmas story.

That's all about Christmas.

That's all about that kid trying to get that BB gun for Christmas in anticipation of Christmas.

Christmas, Christmas, Christmas.

Yes.

My question for you is, how did this movie ever even get into the top two?

Because I think it's a maudlin

piece of junk.

And I know I'm in the minority, but I think that movie is a maudlin piece of junk that I would never watch again.

So defend your choice.

Judge Hodgman, can I interject here real quick?

Okay.

I've never seen either of these movies.

What?

What?

Simply having

a podcast gasping break.

I would advise you to see one of them.

I presume that's a Christmas story.

How did a Christmas story.

You love this movie?

Yes, we both love this.

I know a lot of people do.

Yeah, let me state for the record we both love both films.

But I need you to tell me why a Christmas story gets anywhere near best Christmas movie.

Sure.

I can only speak from the perspective that I have coming into it, which is as somebody who did not grow up with Christmas in his household being Jewish, but loving everything about Christmas.

Decorations.

You would think a Jewish person would really know who Barabbas is.

You would think.

Because you wanted him so bad.

Well, you have no idea what I'm talking about.

I wish I did, but just keep going.

That's our new podcast where I try to figure out who Barabbas is.

Ten parts.

I don't think you'll need that many.

We'll see.

Right.

Just call Ken Plume.

So

for me, that film embodies...

a lot of what we think of at Christmas.

If we think of decorations, we think of gift giving as a child wanting a gift.

the trials and tribulations of a child who wants one toy more than anything else in the world.

And

that's sort of what the film centers around.

So as a child, you identify with Ralphie.

Then as a parent or as an adult, you start to identify more with the adults.

So I think it works.

And in between, you identify with that famous flagpole.

You haven't seen the movie.

How do you know that?

Because people

like Hal

tell you things about this movie over and over and over.

And then other people like you, you, John, tell you about how it's not actually that good.

So then you feel like you've already heard about all the parts of the movie, but people you trust, like John Hodgman, tell you that it's not actually good.

It's just one of those things that you learned to like when you were 10, like the Goonies.

Yeah, you know, I've never seen the Goonies.

I've never seen the Goonies either.

Guys, let's go see Goonies.

We're having another podcast twist.

So those reasons I think makes it a good Christmas movie because you can enjoy the experience as a child or an adult.

But also, culturally, at least in America, that is the film that is shown for 24 straight hours, like it or not.

That is the film that becomes a publication.

As opposed to It's a Wonderful Life, sir,

which is not shown 24 straight hours of George Bailey almost committing suicide on a bridge.

What?

What?

All right.

That's unfair.

Okay, go ahead, gangs.

Well, it's unfair to classify it as a movie about

George Bailey standing on a bridge about to commit suicide when you're taking just one moment.

I could say that a Christmas story is a movie about childhood greed and licking flagpoles.

So, Mark, you're saying taking one moment out of a larger narrative is not sufficient evidence to make a decision?

This seems like a trap, Mark.

Just like taking somebody's quote from an almost hour-long podcast and using it as evidence that your movie is better?

Oh, he just sprung the trap.

Simply springing another podcast trap.

Mark, the simple fact is, in this case, and there have been episodes we've done where I didn't care for the decision, but have abided by it.

And I have as well, and you know that.

Exactly.

So suck it up, Buttercup.

That to me is

for that Christmas film.

It can be enjoyed.

It really embodies, for me, what the Christmas experience I always idealized as a child.

And didn't have.

And didn't have.

Not that I didn't.

I mean, my parents were great at a great Hanukkah, but still,

Christmas is the holiday of that season.

It's a much larger holiday than Hanukkah is.

And that film, for me, was like, oh, this is.

As an outsider, it epitomized Christmas for you.

Yes.

Especially because you were getting socks three nights out of the week.

And you probably weren't ever going to get a BB gun of any kind.

Nope.

Chocolate coins.

And there is, I mean, there is that

for kids who celebrate Christmas, who are going to get their Christmas presents all on that one morning, there is this long, incredibly tense buildup of anticipation that gets

blown out all at once on that one day.

And it's a traumatic experience, frankly.

Yeah.

And then you don't sleep at all.

And that was what you did not have and wanted.

No, that's correct.

Well, you've definitely convinced me that this movie somehow

healed some psychic wound you had.

But you make a it's a hard thing to argue that

a Christmas story is on

less than it's a wonderful life is on, because it's a wonderful life.

Part of the story why it is known as a movie

is that it was not particularly successful at the time, but someone let the copyright lapse at Republic Pictures, and then every UHF channel back when we had such things could show it all the time, all the time, and all the time.

And that's how it became, I think, inarguably, despite the fact that it encompasses many different holidays, a Christmas classic on television.

As much so as a Christmas story, as I would say.

Sure.

It's certainly

a ubiquitous film, a very well-made film, and it's identified with the holidays because that's when it was aired.

Would you disagree that it is intrinsically, setting aside its Christmasness, a better film?

I

to me, it's apples and oranges.

Yeah, both to delicious hand fruit

that you can get at the grocery store that are in very many ways comparable.

By the way, on your show, did you not do an episode of which is better, apples or oranges?

We did determine between apples and oranges.

What was the determination on apples and oranges?

Apples.

Yeah.

Yes, that's correct.

Yes.

Gags, you heard some of the arguments that I was making on your behalf.

Why am I doing the arguing for both of you guys?

That's a good question.

But I do feel like I've offered further argument for the Christmasiness of one film.

Yeah.

You liked it.

Yeah, as far as the quality, I love the work of Frank Capra, but I also love a Christmas story, which strikes me as a Christmas-specific film.

You don't need Christmas for It's a Wonderful Life to be a great movie.

You need New Year's Eve.

But what you do need for a great movie is a narrative through line.

And I feel like the narrative through line of It's a Wonderful Life, it's a better told story, whereas A Christmas Story is a bunch of vignettes.

It was based on a a series of essays.

Yes, yes.

And by the way, for people who haven't seen A Christmas Story, the flagpole licking

is when Ralphie is double dog dared to put his tongue on the flagpole.

Does he get his tongue called?

It's Schwartzy.

It's Schwartzy.

Yes.

No, Flick.

That kid.

Or Flick, yeah.

Schwartz dares Flick to lick the flagpole.

And it's all set in the 1950s.

It's truly the Radio Classics 118 of Christmas films

in its unrepentant nostalgia.

I mean, it's nice that finally in films, baby boomers got to be nostalgic about the 1950s.

And you haven't even seen it.

I mean, it's definitely a series of small vignettes, but they all lead up to a larger narrative of Christmas, and they're all themed around that.

And the dad gets that disgusting leg lamp.

He gets the leg lamp, which is a major award.

Right.

A fragile, it says on it.

Fragile.

From Italy.

Yes.

Dumbest joke.

But I remember it.

I remember it.

Yes.

I haven't seen that movie in many years.

And ultimately,

in the argument of Christmas being about family,

the other thing, the old man, as he's referred to, that's right.

That's a good point, Jesse.

There is no family, and it's a wonderful life.

Good point.

He wants turkey.

He loves turkey.

That's all, like, his greatest joy of Christmas.

The dogs, the bumpus's hounds come in, devour the turkey.

But the family still has Christmas anyway.

They go to a local Chinese restaurant and have have their meal there.

So the fact that they're together and having Christmas as a family is the most important thing.

Not a rifle, not turkey, not a leg lamp.

Which happens in the last three minutes of the movie.

For the bulk of the movie,

the movie is about Ralphie trying to get the Christmas present he wants.

It does have the most terrifying Santa Claus sequence I've ever seen.

Yes.

Ho, ho, ho.

Yeah, this is that's terrifying.

That is disgusting and terrifying.

I like that Hal's entire argument about this is that he is the Alexis de Tocqueville of Christmas, that as a Jew, he has come in, he's observed what the essential truths about Christmas are, and has left to report it back to Europe.

The council will hear of this.

Yeah, that's right.

I have gone and observed Christian America, and I bring back to Europe the most essential Christmas film, a Christmas story.

And here also is Jerry Lewis, the greatest genius of comedy.

Do you accept there may be some cultural misperception here with no offense to your great people and their traditions?

No, certainly.

There's a certain amount, and even in everything Mark and I discuss, there's a certain amount of personal bias that comes into this play.

There's a certain amount of anti-Semitism, no matter what.

But let me say this, Hal.

Yes.

I've been a little rough on you right now.

But I appreciate the fact that you went deep and you explained what this movie meant to you instead of just doing what Gags did, which is go, I like this movie and so do a lot of people.

In fact, here's what Rotten Tomatoes says.

So Gags

make a more substantive argument about why I should rule in your favor regarding It's a Wonderful Life that does not resort to

glib polls and flattery of me.

Go deep, dude.

Go deep.

Every year,

one thing that my father and I share is a love of Christmas.

And every year, we get together at the holidays.

And one of the things I look forward to more than anything else is sitting down with my dad and watching It's a Wonderful Life.

Sometimes we did the colorized version when we had that VHS tape, but as soon as we got the original back, we wanted the original full, beautiful black and white.

It's a wonderful life.

And no matter how many times both of us watch that movie, the two of us sit and cry at the end of it yeah but you could be talking about die hard with a vengeance

not the context of watching it at christmas why is it intrinsically christmassy because at the end of the day it is a story of family and community and where eight thousand dollars is the the driving force that leads to the whole third act of the movie, what it really comes down to in the end is George Bailey's love of his wife and his children and a community rallying around him because they know that this is a man in trouble and this is a man who has affected all of their lives.

When George Bailey is shown how everyone's life is worse off without his influence on it, As humans, we're all looking for our place in the world and our purpose to figure out where it is that we fit into this big thing.

And George spends the whole movie trying to figure that out.

And at the end of the movie, what it comes down to is George has had an impact on the world.

It's just that the world is those people around him, his family and his community.

And I don't think anything embodies the Christmas spirit better than realizing that the world that you are trying to create around you is really held together by love and friendship and community and helping each other.

And there's nothing more emblematic of Christmas than that to me.

Oh, hey,

this is the janitor here at MaxFun.

Those three guys left a little while ago.

Was there something you were talking about?

Oh, did they?

Yeah,

they just left

the thing running.

What's your name?

Alan.

Oh, it's nice to meet you, Alan.

I'm Mark.

Do you mind if...

So should I just log off and then?

Hey, Alan,

I've been working on these pipes down here.

I'm the plumber for maximum funds.

My name is Francis, and um, I'm wondering when you're gonna get done cleaning so that I can finish my pipe work.

Yeah, I just have to sprinkle all this sawdust all over the place first.

Hey, guys, it's me, Zev.

I'm almost done cleaning the windows from the inside.

I'm gonna go to the outside, but uh, curious.

Hey, guys, what's your favorite Christmas movie?

Uh, hey, you guys, we gotta get out of here because uh, the other guys are coming soon.

So close,

Guys, get out of here.

You're not supposed to start work until 5 p.m.

Well, we sorted that out.

Back to the case.

Well, I think I've heard everything I need to hear.

So I'm going to go into this cave and have a rock rolled in front of it where I will die and then be reborn with my decision emanating from my head like a halo.

So I'll be right back.

Here I go to die.

Please rise as Judge Sean Hodgman exits the courtroom.

How, how do you feel about your chances in this case?

I feel like I've made the most compelling argument that I can, and I just have to hope that justice is on my side.

Do you think that you're going to be able to overcome the judge's bias against a Christmas story on the basis of the fact that it's not that great?

I do.

I think the judge sees the larger arguments and a Christmas movie that's not great is better than a Christmas movie that's not really about Christmas at all.

That's an interesting argument.

Mark, how do you feel about your chances?

I think that my chances are pretty good.

It's clear that the judge does not like a Christmas story, so hopefully he will let his personal tastes come into play in this, and he will realize that

while the majority of people prefer, it's a wonderful life.

And I'm just praying and hoping that Hal and I remain dear, dear friends after we leave here today.

Dead to me.

Well, we'll see what Judge John Hodgman has to say about all of this, including the future of your friendship, when we come back in just a second.

You're listening to Judge John Hodgman.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

Of course, the Judge John Hodgman podcast, always brought to you by you, the members of maximumfun.org.

Thanks to everybody who's gone to maximumfun.org slash join.

And you can join them by going to maximumfun.org slash join.

The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by Made In.

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Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom.

First of all, Merry Christmas, the old building and loan.

I'm talking to that old building and loan over there.

It's a small bank that my family owns that can speak English.

This is a complex case.

No way.

It's not.

It's obvious.

The answer is obvious on its face.

It's a Wonderful Life

may not be

about

the modern celebration of Christmas as we know it and young Jewish boys know it.

But it is profoundly more about Christmas, if that is your criteria,

than a Christmas story, even though it's got Christmas in the title.

Why?

Duh.

George Bailey's Christ.

I mean, he is born.

He sacrifices his entire life.

He reaches a point where he feels he can go no further.

The torments that are upon him make him look to the heavens and say, Take me, Father, why are you doing this to me?

And then is about to jump off a bridge, but is saved by an angel and enjoys salvation through the act of love of a community.

I mean, mean,

this is what it's about.

And your movie, Hal, is about a kid who wants a gun.

It's about a greedy child.

No offense, Peter Billingsley, who I know still works in the industry, and I would love to do anything with you in the future.

I think I've been detector.

But it's a series of light vignettes centering, revolving around a child's and a father's greed

for guns,

women's legs in the form of lamps, sexual lamps, and turkey.

It's lurid,

it's unseemly, everyone's yelling at each other,

and what's more,

it's a wonderful life, though not being explicitly about Christmas,

itself embodies a Christmassy story because it was this classic

that almost disappeared

due to the rotten tomatoes of its time,

but then itself was resurrected.

A theme of Christmas,

a theme of the life of Christ,

by the sort of miracle that someone forgot to copyright the dumb thing.

And in that sense, even better, it belongs to everyone.

And finally,

it is

a better movie

by

far.

The performances are sublime.

The

direction is incredible.

The themes are affecting.

The humor is amazing.

There is a reason that everyone watches it.

And there's a reason that Mark Gagliardi and his dad

get together and watch it every year in that word picture that he painted, which was frankly sounded a little depressing, the two of them staring at the VCR.

I'm not pushing this as a explicitly Christian movie.

If anything, it is just a profoundly humane film

in a way that, in my opinion, and as objectively as I can be as a critic, just a Christmas story isn't.

But I'm in a bad place

because

Howell made a really good argument for why that's a Christmas movie.

And gags, you flubbed it every time, dude.

You flubbed your initial argument, you flubbed your double argument, you flubbed your triple argument, then you went on a long monologue about everyone's nice to each other, and that was almost getting it there.

But I needed you to say, well, George Bailey is Christ, in order to

sway me that your argument was better than Hal's.

And Mark, you know that I adore you, and I'm sorry to say that you flubbed your argument.

That's all right.

I want you to learn from it.

I have, sir.

What have you learned?

I've learned Christ.

That George Bailey is Christ.

I learned that too.

It was really interesting.

Well, look, you could solve this now by changing your mind.

How?

I could.

Well, see, this is what it comes down to.

Here's the difficulty for me.

Yeah.

Is as somebody who has a wife who believes in Jesus, but I don't personally, as a religious figure, that's not what Christmas is to me.

It's a general spirit of generosity and giving, absolutely.

It's spending time with family, yes.

The fact that it's the story of Christ doesn't tie it for me stronger to Christmas, which I admit is odd and may be something specific to me or just specific to people who prefer a Christmas story, whoever they are.

I have no gawker lists to offer you or Uprox GIF articles.

Well, here's something that's going to be meaningful to you a little ways down the road.

In this judgment,

you are Barabbas.

And unfortunately for Gagliardi,

you are Christ.

Because I have to crucify you, dude.

Jesus?

Yeah, that's the podcast took a turn.

I'm talking to you.

You will have to be the one to sacrifice here because

Hal

doesn't accept your argument, nor does he accept my

much greater argument.

No offense, gags.

No, none taken.

And

what happened on your podcast,

even though the outcome, in my opinion, which is correct, was wrong,

I have to conclude that you did not argue well enough

because there's no other way that Hal could have won that one.

Hal is demonstrably wrong.

You should have taken him apart.

But perhaps, like Jesus, you are too pacifist to do so.

And consequently,

A, he got his way on that one, a Christmas story, and B, when it came time to re-up,

you agreed to this ridiculous,

Ken Plume, arbitrary decision-making process.

And so,

because,

and I hate to do this to you, Mark,

but you started out with flattery.

You started out with polls.

You moved on to a touching personal story.

but you didn't find the crux of why It's a Wonderful Life is a obviously, substantially better film, better Christmas movie, and the best Christmas movie.

And I am upbraiding you only because I know you can do better in the future and destroy this monster who sits across from me.

Thank you, Your Honor.

If there's anything that we've learned here in this Judge John Hodgman podcast, is to find the crux,

to take your intuitive sense of justice, a hot dog is not a sandwich,

and then really dig deep and figure out why,

because you would never cut it in half.

And that is something that

you must take this harsh lesson, Mark Gagliardi, to learn going forward with your podcast, which I want to thrive.

You will be better for it.

You will be better for this sacrifice.

You will win more frequently.

And this whole episode,

both of this podcast and yours and the episode in general, shall be a dark stain upon your history forever, Hal.

Thank you, Your Honor.

You have been given your freedom while Mark has been sacrificed.

And so,

a new holiday is born.

We are now in July, but come this Christmas,

you shall remember this day.

And

whenever in December

you settle upon

a dispute between the two of you in your favor, Hal,

Mark may go to your Lord and Savior, Ken Plume.

and receive a number from beyond.

And you may be summarily dismissed in as callous and unfair a way as Mark was.

That is my ruling upon you.

Fair enough.

But I do find in your favor.

This is the sound of a gavel.

Judge John Hodgman rules, that is all.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Hal, how are you feeling?

I feel good about it.

I have to say, the argument that George Bailey is Christ is a great argument.

And

legitimately, had that come up during the podcast episode, it might have gone the other way.

But it's interesting and I love both films and I'm glad we got to talk about it again.

And Mark,

I love you.

I love you too.

I'll tell you this.

I feel, Jesse, right now, like if I were a criminal defense attorney defending someone who was up for murder, I feel like the jury just handed down a guilty verdict and the judge said, well, it's guilty.

And also, the reason he's been found guilty is because of your lawyer.

So, both the murder and the upcoming execution are on your hands.

So, it's a big weight to bear.

Gags has died.

Gags has risen.

Gags will come

again.

Amen.

We'll be back in just a second on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

You know, we've been doing My Brother, My Brother, Me for 15 years.

And

maybe you stopped listening for a while.

Maybe you never listened.

And you're probably assuming three white guys talking for 15 years, I know where this has ended up.

But no.

No, you would be wrong.

We're as shocked as you are that we have not fallen into some sort of horrific scandal or just turned into a big crypto thing.

Yeah.

You don't even really know how crypto works.

The only NFTs I'm into are naughty, funny things, which is what we talk about on My Brother, My Brother, and Me.

We serve it up every Monday for you if you're listening.

And if not, we just leave it out back and goes rotten.

So check it out on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts.

All right, we're over 70 episodes into our show.

Let's learn everything.

So let's do a quick progress check.

Have we learned about quantum physics?

Yes, episode 59.

We haven't learned about the history of gossip gossip yet, have we?

Yes, we have.

Same episode, actually.

Have we talked to Tom Scott about his love of roller coasters?

Episode 64.

So how close are we to learning everything?

Bad news, we still haven't learned everything yet.

Oh, we're ruined!

No, no, no, it's good news as well.

There is still a lot to learn.

Woo!

I'm Dr.

Ella Hubber.

I'm regular Tom Lomb.

I'm Caroline Roper, and on Let's Learn Everything, we learn about science and a bit of everything else too.

And although we haven't learned everything yet, I've got a pretty good feeling about this next episode.

Join us every other Thursday on Maximum Fun.

That's it for this week's Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Christmas in July.

Hey, we're going on tour in September.

That'll be sort of like Christmas in September.

It will be.

It'll be Hanukkah in September.

We've already got a few shows that are entirely sold out.

So if you live in the Northeast, now's the time to get your tickets.

They're not going to last for long.

We're also headed to London for the London Podcast Festival.

That includes not just Judge John Hodgman, but a very special episode of my NPR show, Bullseye with Jesse Thorne, featuring special guests from the United Kingdom who

are to be announced.

TBA from the UK.

As well as the Maximum Fun Podcast, International Waters, which is a cross-cultural transatlantic pop culture quiz show hosted by the great Dave Holmes.

It is super funny, super fun.

We're going to have amazing special celebrity guests on that one as well.

So I hope that you'll get a lot of tickets for shows if you live in London.

But most importantly, if you're in the northeast of the United States, tickets are still on sale for all of our shows except for New York, which we've already sold out two shows.

Portland, Maine, Turner's Falls, Massachusetts, Boston, Massachusetts, Brooklyn's out of there, Philadelphia, the District of Columbia.

And those tickets are going very fast.

A lot of those shows are getting very close to selling out.

So do get your tickets now.

And if you have a case for Judge John Hodgman, go to maximumfund.org slash JJ H O.

There you will find a submission form that includes your city of residence.

Exactly so.

So if you live in one of those cities and you are free on the day of that performance and you might want to present a case to be heard live on stage, let us know.

If we pick your case to hear, you get in for free.

Even that Brooklyn show.

Yeah, no case too big or too small.

We love to hear them all.

We love to hear them all, but we will only pick a couple of them.

Yeah, maximumfund.org slash JJ H O.

Submit your cases there.

And one last thing about the tour.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, from one New Englander to another.

If any of you weirdos wants to come to Portland, Maine, Turner's Falls, Massachusetts, and Boston, Massachusetts, see all three shows and make a road trip of it, show me your ticket stubs in the Boston show.

I'll meet you backstage personally for a special meet-and-greet New England style.

We also have Max FunCon East coming up.

You and I, as we record this, Judge Hodgman, we just finished Max FunCon.

You have a good time?

I had such a good time.

It's such a pleasure to see all of the Max Fun listeners and so many of my fellow podcast network mates.

And it's a really good, fun, supportive community.

The thing that's so great about Max FunCon East and West is the listeners are often

really interesting people who are making interesting stuff in the world?

So if you're coming to either one, you're not just there to see the fantastic so-called talent, you're going to make a lot of really good friends that

you'll enjoy knowing for the rest of your life.

It's Labor Day weekend in the Poconos.

You can find more information at maxfuncon.com.

Hashtag your posts about Judge John Hodgman.

Hashtag JJ H O.

Join us on Facebook.

There's a wonderful maximum fun group and a great Judge John Hodgman page, as well as a Judge John Hodgman fans group, which I am not, we're not even administrators of.

It's just happened.

It's just a cool place to chat about Judge John Hodgman.

Not that the Max Fund group isn't as well.

We also always have great conversations about the show on the Maximum Fund Reddit, which is maximumfund.reddit.com.

So we hope that you will join us in all of those places.

Our producer is Jennifer Marmor.

This week's show, named by Steve, I'm going to say, Merois.

Thanks, you guys.

If that's not how you pronounce your name, Steve Morois, my apologies.

Thanks to you, Steve.

Thanks, Jennifer.

We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

And listen to We Got This with Hal and Mark on maximumfun.org.

Don't be a chump.

You'll love it.

Merry Christmas in July.

Goodbye.

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