Decease and Desist

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

This week, Decease and Desist.

Mark brings the case against his wife, Polly.

They had a beloved dog who passed away a few years ago.

Mark would like to assemble and prepare a display of the skeleton in memory of their pet.

Polly thinks this is weird and gross.

Who's right?

Who's wrong?

Only one man can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom.

The sense of death is most in apprehension, and the poor beetle that we tread upon in corporal sufferance finds a pang as great as when a giant dies.

Bailiff Jesse Thorne, please swear them in.

Please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God or whatever?

I do.

I do.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he's on record as more of a cat person?

I do.

I do.

Very well.

Judge Hodgman?

You may be seated.

I'm more of a cat skeleton person myself.

I'm more of a ferret skeleton person myself,

which may give a hint of a hint of a hint of a clue toward the cultural reference that I paraphrased as I entered this courtroom.

For an immediate summary judgment in one of yours favors, Can either you, Mark, or you, Polly, name the piece of culture that I quoted?

Polly, you are the defendant in this case.

Mark has brought you into this court against your will, so you have a choice.

You may make the first guess as to the piece of culture I was quoting, or you may make Mark guess first.

Which shall it be?

Oh, Mark can guess first.

Mark, you may guess first.

It

kind of sounded like something out of Shakespeare, but I couldn't guess what that would be.

Your guess is something out of Shakespeare.

Sure.

But you would have to guess a specific work of Shakespeare.

Well, clearly it'd be a tragedy.

Let's just go with Hamlet.

Okay.

Hamlet is Mark's guess, Polly.

Do you have a guess?

You may guess another work of Shakespeare, if you wish, or anyone.

Well, Shakespeare would be my only guess, but since most of my Shakespearean references boil down to musicals made from Shakespeare,

how about Julius Caesar?

All guesses are wrong wrong for once.

I've had too much of a run of people guessing the cultural references.

Don't really bothers them.

But luckily for me, you're both wrong.

You're both right.

It is Shakespeare.

It is specifically Shakespeare's play, Measure for Measure.

And even more specifically, a quote from Measure for Measure posted

on a page at the SkullsUnlimited.com website dedicated to the dermestid beetle.

These are the beetles, of course, that Skulls Unlimited, my number one, first and only online stop for articulated ferret skeletons and other articulated and unarticulated skeletons and bones.

How we missed that is beyond me.

Yeah, well, you should take a look.

That's where I got my ferret skeleton.

These guys know that they have they have everything you would want.

They have real human skulls and skeletons all kinds of animals articulated and so forth claws and teeth bird eggs replica human skulls fossil hominids real animal skulls souvenirs and novelty gifts and they have a whole section of the page on dermisted beetles because these are the beetles that they deploy

on

dead animals to eat away the

non-bone part.

Not only do they have a page on their beetles, they include the beetles as part of their their crew.

They're the who works here part of the website.

And it includes these Beatles, and they're adorable.

And

they have a QA for the Beatles in which they ask the Beatles what they're,

if they could meet anyone living or dead, who would it be?

And the Beatles supposedly respond, we plan to meet everyone eventually.

I'm starting to feel a bias here.

Oh, well.

I mean, but you're Mark brings a good point.

Mark,

you want to reassemble the skeleton of your deceased beloved dog, Kudzu.

That is correct.

And Polly, you wish him to not do this.

That is correct.

Since this case involves preservation of

corpses, skeletons, and historical medical oddities, We have asked a very special expert witness to join us today, Dr.

Robert Hicks, is in the courtroom.

He is, are you here, sir?

I am.

And will you state for the record

your job?

Your Honor, I am director of the Mooter Museum and Historical Medical Library of the College of Physicians of Philadelphia.

We are one of the oldest, if not the oldest, professional fraternal organization in the country.

Our museum is probably the best known, best visited museum of pathological anatomy in the United States.

Pathological anatomy.

Those are the words I was searching for when

I was talking about this dead dog.

For those of you who don't know, the Mudra Museum is one of my favorite places in the world, and indeed one of my favorite cities in the world, Philadelphia.

But

this has a collection.

How would you describe the collection, Dr.

Hicks?

Our collection includes anatomical specimens, mostly human, but not entirely.

In fact, we do have an articulated skeleton of a dog in our collection.

We also have medical tools.

Our library has texts concerning the historical medicine going back a thousand years.

We have a little bit of everything, wax models,

anything and everything connected with anatomy.

But what you're specifically known for, first of all, it's a beautiful...

What era was the collection sort of pulled together initially?

It was pulled together in the early 19th century, but the Muter Museum opened in 1863.

So, and it has this turn of the last century feel to it, these beautiful glass display cases.

And as you enter in, you start,

it's a collection of bones and sometimes deformed, bones from horribly deformed people.

You have an incredible collection of

trepanned skulls, which is to say, skulls that have had a hole bored into them while the patient was alive to, as an early medical practice, to relieve intracranial pressure.

Is that, do I explaining trepanation correctly?

You're right on with that.

We have skulls with all kinds of holes in them caused by different things,

most of them causing death.

But that's a good example of one that involved treating a living person and keeping them alive.

I mean, this is not necessarily, let me put it this way.

Some of the items in your collection, I mean, you use the term medical oddities.

You have a life cast of Chang'anang Bunker, the Siamese twins for whom the term Siamese twins were named.

They're joined at the waist, more or less, right?

That's right.

And

much of your collection collects these medical oddities or preservation of medical oddities that is not always for the squeamish, but all children love it.

That was my first experience there, was me wandering through looking at this gigantic

human colon that had been preserved, that is truly a megacolon, if I've ever seen one, and feeling a little bit like, I gotta get out of there.

Meanwhile, my friend's four-year-old daughter was going like, this is the greatest place on earth.

It's an amazing place.

And as you know, as you may know, sir, I've long championed

a film set in your museum called Night at the Mudder Museum, where all of the exhibits come to life, just like in the fun Ben Stiller movie.

And my dreamcasting would be Ricky Gervais is the voice of the mega colon.

But I'm still working on it.

There's a rights issue.

But I'm very happy for you to be here have i mischaracterized your museum in any way that you feel uh uncomfortable with oh no not at all and i championed the film project and would like to help with the casting so well you know what as soon as i get the rights then we'll have a conversation i'll get our lawyers together in the meantime we'll go over to little pizza and we'll hash it out over scrapple

and scrapple in the meantime uh

that classic combination scrapble and scrapple

mark

has this dead dog that he wants to reassemble as a skeleton.

Right, Mark?

That is correct.

And you don't just have this skeleton lying around like it's over there.

It's been

cleaned off by beetles at Skulls Unlimited.

You have this dead dog underneath your house?

Well, in the backyard.

You have buried your beloved pet.

Tell me about kudzu before we go on.

Well, we had we've had kudzu since uh well, we got her in 2001.

She is a

half boxer, half Boston terrier.

And we got her when she was a puppy.

She came from North Carolina and we were living in Illinois at the time.

And

so we called her kudzu because it seemed like a local vegetation that we brought up to

Illinois.

Why not name your dog after an invasive weed that everyone hates?

Exactly.

And it became less funny when we moved back, when we moved down to South Carolina.

Yeah.

It's like my dog, Nutria.

And my 35 cats, the cane toads.

So, where do you live in South Carolina now?

Yes.

And now, Kudzu, we're going to talk very frankly about kudzu

and the fact that she is no longer alive and you wish to manipulate her bones in ways that perhaps people might find gruesome.

Indeed, I think Polly thinks so.

But

lest you think we are simply cruel and unfeeling, let us say, Kudzu,

I am sure, was a good dog.

She was.

You remember her very fondly.

He never liked her.

That's not true.

Oh!

Wait!

I like her as much as I like any dog.

Objection!

First gear to realness.

Pow!

Just dropped it right into realness.

Hit that clutch.

Sorry.

No, don't apologize.

Polly, tell me,

how much did your husband hate this dog?

She was my dog.

Here's the problem.

I'm really the dog person in the house.

He's probably more of a person.

He's more of the dog bones person?

Yes.

Our previous dog, we've always kind of had boxers in some form.

And our previous boxer, he used to, he was obsessed with

his head.

He thought it was the coolest skull and he would talk about the skull so then we got you know years later we now have kwatzu the lie so this is what was the name of the previous boxer what was the name of the previous boxer the previous nebuchadnezzar nebuchadnezzar

is that how you would call for the dog or did you have a nickname for the dog call him nez nez

So you would like, you would like come down for a snack in the middle of the night and you'd find your husband sort of fondling Nebuchadnezzar's skull going someday.

Almost.

If he were touching the dog, he would be feeling up the head like it was this weird little thing that he was obsessed with.

Your Honor, I believe she is mischaracterizing how often I obsessed with the over his skull.

Overruled.

Polly, please continue.

So yes.

So he's had this weird skull obsession with the boxer breed.

So then now we have kudzu.

Well, we no longer do, but we do in the yard.

We have kudzu.

And when we move down here to the south,

you can take your dog when you have to have it put down.

Your options are to take your dog with you and you can bury it in the backyard.

This was new to us since up north you had to pay a fee and they got rid of the dog in whatever way they saw fit and you could take the ashes.

Right.

Or what they claim to be your dog's ashes.

Exactly.

But so when we moved down here, he, first of all, he's been charmed by the idea of this since I brought the dog home from the vet and we had to bury her in the backyard for the kids.

You know, it was, for us, it was, you know, that first pet loss.

All three of our children were very traumatized.

We had tears by the graveside.

Everyone was there to bury Kudson.

And

he, pretty much from day one, got on this kick about thinking it'd be awesome to dig the dog up.

Now,

I wouldn't say day one, and I also,

it sounds like I was, you know, gleefully standing by the graveside while they were all weeping.

And that's what I really does.

It really does sound that way.

And I, would you say this was more of a sober pursuit of your lifelong professional interest in dog science?

As you are a dog scientist.

I think that that is, that's, that's a more fair characterization.

Sure.

What is your profession?

What is your profession, Mark?

I am a graphic.

I have a grand illustrator.

Oh, okay.

Fine.

Good.

Resurrection man.

Gotcha.

Sure.

Sure.

And Polly, do you have,

what is your career?

How do you spend your days?

I teach middle school art.

Well done.

And how old are your children?

The ones we own.

Oh, I hope you own them all.

Do you have a few rentals at the moment?

I have my classes.

No, I meant your actual children, your offspring.

10, 12, and 14.

10, 12, and 14.

Oh, and so when did Kudzu pass?

It will be two years in June, the first of June.

Two years in June.

And she passed.

Obviously, you had her put down because you were tired of her?

No.

What was the reason?

Congestive heart failure.

I'm sorry.

That must have been very painful for

your kids, especially, you know, the oldest was...

How old is the oldest now?

14.

We

was the, they were the same age.

We, like most normal people, got a puppy when our child was three months old.

Right.

So

that's so that you could have an infant for the rest of your life, or at least for a few more years.

I admit that's all on me.

That was 100% me.

You don't regret the decision to adopt kudzu?

Oh, absolutely not.

Right.

I would do it again.

We've done it again.

We have another puppy.

You have another puppy.

All right.

So you say it was not day one after the funeral that you began thinking about digging up your dog and putting her bones back together.

I don't know when it was.

I mean, I'm sure the idea came to me

on one of the several times I went out there to cut weeds off of

the grave or perhaps

when I went out there to

replace

the pavers that we had covering her burial spot because somebody had stolen them

for some weird reason.

Where do you live?

Well,

the lot was vacant when

we buried the dog.

You buried your dog in a vacant lot.

Well, the

lot?

Right, okay.

And then you covered her grave with markers that were stolen?

Can I ask you a question?

Was the lot in late 19th century Egypt?

have there been have there been a lot of guys in matching khaki short pants and jacket shirts and pith helmets wandering around your neighborhood lately

they uh they they did not find what they were looking for unfortunately so kudzu you we'll get to your reasoning in a moment but i i want to speculate as to the quality of this specimen kudzu has been under the ground for two years dr hicks do you have uh any suggestion as to what condition Kudzu's body might be in at this point?

Any educated guess?

I do.

I also have a question to ask Mark in a moment, and maybe a solution to this problem.

Oh.

But the answer to your question about the soil, I heard North Carolina, and if it's like Virginia, it's sort of red, clay, high acid stuff.

I need to know, Mark, have you ever

done this before?

Have you ever articulated the skeleton of an animal that you recovered from the ground?

I have not.

Ah, then here's what you need to know.

Assuming that you could excavate a skeleton and it's viable in some way, this is a little bit like being handled as parts of the space shuttle and being told put them together again in their new instructions.

And skilled anatomists who do this

have a bit of a difficult time and they also have to alter the skeletal material in order to re-articulate it.

But let's talk about the ground for a moment.

Given the time your dog's been under there, there is, at the moment, no particularly profound reason to believe you've got a skeleton just waiting to be picked up.

You could have at this moment a ball of goo wrapped in fur.

You may not have a skeleton.

Even if you have the skeletal pieces, they're still liable to be connected with bits and pieces of flesh in various stages of decomposition.

Yeah, and

a ball of goo wrapped in fur might be something they might display at the motor museum, but that's not something you want in your house.

And it'd have to be stable goo for us, Your Honor.

It has to be stable.

Okay.

But if you pick up skeletal pieces, and even assuming you could get most of them from the ground at this point,

having not done this before, you're liable to create, at best, a

skeletal hut for a Stone Age Barbie.

And that's what your kids will see.

Your kids will lose all respect for you, and they'll feel demeaned as a result of having their beloved pet reduced to this sculpture so I did say I did have a suggestion about this I have seen it done where a colleague of mine had a beloved cat die the cat was buried for one year in Pennsylvania soil and it was retrieved and a friend defleshed the bones dried them and assembled them in a bell jar as an ossuary.

So they're not re-articulated.

They're simply arranged under a bell jar and the skull is there.

And I do share your passion a little bit, Mark, for fondling skulls.

And I have four cats.

They're still all alive and they seem to love it as much as I do when I stroke their crania and admire all their perfections and imperfections.

What have I unleashed?

What unholy alliance have I allowed to happen on my podcast?

But your honor, you did say you were a cat person.

I thought it was safe to mention that.

Yeah, that's true.

No, I know what you're talking about.

I've felt a cat skull before.

I've been there.

I know.

My younger brother has one of those hairless cats.

It's basically all skull.

Yeah.

Those sphinxes.

Dr.

Hicks, I feel that we interrupted you and your time is valuable.

Was there a further point you wish to make?

Well, since Hamlet has already been thrown up as a false source for your quotation, remember the gravedigger scene in Hamlet, where Hamlet says, how long, to the gravedigger, does it take for the body to be reduced to bones?

Alas, poor Dr.

Hicks, I have no idea what you're talking about.

And the gravedigger says eight or nine years.

And that's British soil.

So North Carolina soil is going to be a lot rougher on the dog.

And you're going to have a huge mess in your hands if you try to do this.

But I said I had a suggestion.

Please.

The ossuary that my friend created.

If you are able to leave those bones or leave those remains untouched for maybe another three to five years, then take a look, you're likely to get more bone if the bone hasn't decayed even in that acidic soil.

You're still going to have to clear away the fur because frankly fur and hair just doesn't go away.

And then maybe think about the ossuary because it wouldn't be so difficult to say dry the bones.

And if you have to, if you have to, if there's still flesh remaining, you could put them in a pot, although I suspect Polly doesn't want you doing this in the kitchen, and boil the the remains off and then you get your bones.

But the ossuary is a kind of respectful idea.

I liked it when I saw it with my colleague's cat.

You might consider that, but I would say leave that dog alone for several more years before giving this a try.

Dr.

Hicks, can you describe the ostuary that

your colleague created?

Presuming that we don't know what the word ostuary means.

I think he means a pile of cat bones with a skull on top

underneath a glass dome.

That is true.

Your Honor, that is literally what I mean.

But I would make this argument to Mark and Polly that an ostuary is a noble tradition.

The very first city in our Western heritage, Western civilization, is Jericho in the ancient Near East.

And what did archaeologists find?

They found human skulls embedded in walls, and these skulls were coated with plaster to give them their lifetime appearance.

So the idea of decorating with your friends and neighbors and family goes back a long time.

So there's a noble tradition of this.

And you can go to Italy, you can go to places in Czechoslovakia where there are big tours of these underground ossuaries where bones have been placed.

Underground Paris has the catacombs.

So these are tourist attractions.

I'm not suggesting you charge money to look at this ostuary.

No, no, no.

That's yours.

Although it's worked out very well for you, sir.

You don't want to foster any competition.

I got it.

That's true.

We don't need the competition,

and likely you would get the same 150,000 plus visitors a year that we get.

But it's a thought.

But I would suggest for the time being, don't try

So I'm going to ask Mark and Polly a question really quickly here.

Mark, you've heard what Dr.

Hicks has said.

Has anything he said given you pause in your desire to dig up your dog's body and mount its bones?

I would be lying if I said it didn't give me pause.

I think that...

Can we use a different phrase besides give me pause?

Overruled.

In other words,

let me put it to you this way.

Do you want to do it more, less, or the same amount now that you've heard from an expert?

Well,

I'm not opposed to the ossuary concept.

That's not what I'm talking about.

I'm talking about your waiting three years, digging up the body,

boiling off the remaining flesh, or maybe hiring some dermistid beetles or something.

really having to

boil the body of your dog in order to get its bones before you can even get to the ossuary part.

Do you want to do, do you want to do this more, less, or the same amount?

And you are, I'll remind you, you're under oath.

The same amount.

The same amount.

All right.

Polly.

Yes.

You have heard the testimony from our expert witness.

You have heard his description of the long historical tradition of the ossuary in human culture, as well as his loving description of his friend's cat's bones piled up in uh underneath a jar

does that change your opinion about the possibility of displaying respectfully

kudzu's remains in your home

no i'm not i i'm actually enthralled by the idea of people

i just don't want my pet you'll you'll take a human human skulls in your house any old day i would take that over my beloved pet not to mention we have other animals in this house.

I envision the current 85-pound boxer knocking that thing over and, you know, suddenly walking around with a bone in his mouth.

You're describing like the most grotesque Marmaduke cartoon ever.

He kind of is.

Like if David Lynch adapted Marmaduke.

It'd be funnier than an actual Marmaduke cartoon.

85 pounds.

I didn't realize that the boxer was, and I'm a cat person, not a dog person.

How heavy was Kudzu

when she died?

She was a half-boxer, so she was like maybe 30 pounds at most.

A lot smaller, Aaron.

Gotcha.

A lot of goo in the ground.

Sorry.

Thank you.

Sorry, not sorry, I think is what he meant to say.

In fact, I think your entire, every utterance in your professional career, Dr.

Hicks, could be followed by hashtag sorry, not sorry.

Polly, the scene that you set of one dog gnawing on the bones of another dog is certainly slapstick.

I don't doubt that Mark, however, would provide security for kudzu's bones

were they to be displayed.

So setting aside

weird scenarios like that, is there something

personal, personally disturbing to you about displaying kudzu's bones?

No, but here's the deal.

All kidding aside, of our three children, our middle child that we lovingly referred to as id

for the first many years of his life

really does react strongly to things and emotionally react strongly to things.

And as much as Mark thinks it would be really cool, and Jack, the middle child, thinks everything Mark says is cool and amazing and awesome.

That will definitely hold three years from now.

Yeah, he's open.

But Jack's going to say, oh, dad said it.

That's great.

I totally want to do it.

There's the part of me that sees Jack waking up in the middle of the night with night terrors because he does over other things that he says.

Oh, yeah, I want to do that.

And the next thing you know, he's up having a nightmare about it.

What sort of thing is he having a nightmare about that he is initially enthused about?

He wants to watch horror films.

How old is he again?

12.

What kind of horror films?

What was most recently?

The horrible spider thing.

Judge Hodgman, with all due respect, I think she's talking about Spider-Man 3.

No, it was actually,

I'm embarrassed to say, eight-legged freaks with David R.

Kett.

Yeah, you should be embarrassed to say that.

But so he wants to watch these things.

He went to go see the visit.

Wasn't really a scary horror film, suspenseful, whatnot.

He thought he wanted to see it.

He really enjoyed it.

But then still, he's up in the middle of the night weeks later because he has an incredibly vivid imagination.

So you're saying that three years from now,

when

Jack and your husband dig up what remains of kudzu, suddenly what seemed like a fun, cool idea of digging up a corpse becomes actually digging up a corpse and he'll be scarred.

Yeah.

You're putting it on him.

I understand.

Dr.

Hicks, I believe that you have to get going.

Is that correct?

Yes,

I think the agenda calls for another autopsy tonight.

Or something more benign.

I see.

Well, is there before

you leave the courtroom, and

do you have anything else you'd like to say, or do you have a verdict to suggest?

I think the only thing I have to say by way of a verdict suggest is

Don't touch the dog.

Revisit the decision in about three years.

The child with the nightmares may grow out of this and may clamor to touch the remains of kudzu.

I think giving this a rest for a while and revisiting the decision is possibly the best thing for the integrity of the family unit in this case.

And the integrity

of the remains themselves.

Yes, the integrity of the remains themselves.

It really does take some significant time to accomplish some decomposition.

And you can't absolutely predict what you're going to find when you dig down.

And it may not be all that you hoped it would be, even five years from now.

But, Your Honor, I do appreciate being called in to testify in this case.

I have great respect for the court, and I am very much in appreciation.

And anytime you have a question about dead things, you call me.

I certainly will, and I don't know why I've waited so long.

You honor us with your presence.

Thank you for your work at the Motor Museum.

Your website is?

Our website is, well, just Google Mutter Museum, and you'll you'll find us.

And we have a great website that you'll find through that, Memento Mooter, just like Memento Mori.

And I know that your highly educated listeners know what that is, so I don't have to define it.

And that's a great website that allows you to see a lot of things you cannot see normally here because they're behind the scenes and allows you to see them in 3D.

We will let you get back to the important business of stacking skulls on top of one another in your beautiful museum.

And now I will turn and we'll say goodbye to you now.

Thank you, Your Honor.

It has been a pleasure and good luck to the litigants of this case.

Always a pleasure, Dr.

Hicks.

Thank you, Jesse.

Bailiff Jesse, will you see him out?

Yes, sir, Judge Hodgman.

And you know what?

While we're at it, why don't we head over to the chambers for a minute?

We've got a Max Fun Drive to discuss.

Then we'll get back to this case.

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Oh.

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Because with merino wool, it like, it basically rejects your stink.

You know what I mean?

It's a stink-rejecting technology, John.

It says, get thee behind me, stink.

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Mark and Polly, just you and me and your skulls now, and Bailiff Jesse, we're going to get to some justice here.

Mark,

I feel through all of this, you've certainly displayed your avid and I think genuine desire to dig up a dog's body and fondle its skull and hold it up in the air in triumph.

Finally, I got it.

But I'm not sure that I've really heard from your

mouth,

from your own flesh lips covering your bone teeth, why?

What is driving you to do this?

This is your chance.

Okay.

So

doing this project would

probably satisfy a series of lifelong ambitions for me.

I've long had a fascination with archaeology

and with,

of course, skulls and skeletons and things like that.

And

I would be approaching this a little bit as sort of a

sort of a personal learning experience and also as

a form of artistic expression.

Reassembling

this

animal would be sort of this intellectual and artistic challenge that I would like to take on.

Polly.

Polly also, skeletons are neat.

Yeah.

Look, I appreciate the sincerity of your answer because I was afraid you're going to be like, this will be educational for our kids, which is not why you're doing this.

You're doing this because you just want to, you're driven to dig up these bones.

You're a digger, just like John Hammond in Jurassic Park.

He's like me, he's a digger.

Polly, which is more important?

Your husband's personal curiosity and

desire to artistically challenge himself to explore this thing that he's obviously very curious about,

or the memory of kudzu?

Honestly,

of course, it's going to be kudzu.

I think what he just fed you was a line of bull.

He went to an art school where he did all this art where they had to talk about it and,

you know, give all this BS explanation of why things were happening.

And I think that's what he just fed you.

He went to school forever.

Did he take any archaeology classes?

I did.

What did you take?

It was my first year of college.

So, I mean, really.

Okay, so Polly, if in your opinion, this court has been has been fed a line of bull roar.

Yeah.

What do you think his real agenda is?

Because he likes to do weird things.

You married him.

I know.

I question that decision often.

Stand by, Mark.

Stand by.

What other weird things...

can you provide as evidence that would suggest that this is just another weird thing as opposed to a very specific weird thing that he has because this court often finds in favor of people who need to do one weird thing

but if but if you think he's just being provocative and just trying to wind you up and wind up this court because that's how he gets his jowls that would be evidence that I would like to hear.

But you have to provide it.

You have to provide me evidence of him doing weird things for no other reason than to drive you crazy.

His motivation is always to shock.

He likes the shock value.

He goes out with people that are friends.

They went to a, it was supposed to be some zombie walk, you know, beer fest thing.

Just say going.

Just say for the sake of argument, I don't know what a zombie walk beer fest thing is.

I'm trying to create an image.

Well, okay.

I mean, you definitely have an image.

But go on.

So he went out with these people who we know are in, one of them is incredibly conservative.

We are not a conservative house.

You can probably tell by the conversations we've had so far.

But an incredibly, credibly conservative person.

And he wears his kilt and paints his nails black.

And he wears Halloween.

It's not that weird.

It is when you're going out with people that would never,

as a gentleman, would never dress like that.

And you know that.

So you do things like that.

Was the point of the event that adults should be wearing costumes?

No.

Yes.

Was anyone else in a costume that you were with?

Well, the people I was with were no fun.

No.

What was your costume, kilt with black nails?

So, well, it wasn't so much a costume, I was just kind of

random.

I'm dressing up weird.

Are you suggesting that your husband

is proposing this just to make you upset?

I believe myself and my mother.

He likes to freak my mother out as well.

Well, that is a lot of fun.

Okay, that

is not true.

Overruled, sir.

I am talking.

I am talking to your wife.

I have the microphone.

So

another question, in your honest opinion, and this calls for speculation,

do you think that he really wants to go through the work that was described by Dr.

Hicks, especially now that we all know digging up a dead dog and getting its bones clean is actually a lot of gross work

more than just pulling bones out of the ground?

Do you think he really wants to do this, or is it enough that he has gotten you upset on a podcast?

No, I think he still would want to do it.

I think I know the way his brain works and I know that he's going, yeah, I'm not going to do this for a few years because, you know, he doesn't like when the dog pukes.

He's not going to want to clean up dog goo.

So I think holding off is definitely going to be on his list now, but I don't think it's deterred him from ever wanting to do it.

If I rule in your favor, Mark,

will you take the advice of Dr.

Hicks and wait two or three more years before you undertake this project?

Most likely.

Oh, most likely.

I'm not

saying I wouldn't

do an exploratory small excavation just to see where we are.

You don't trust the expert?

When has Mark ever trusted the expert?

I mean, right?

Do I read him correctly?

The minute someone says, I know better than you, is the moment that he says, no, you don't.

What is the name of the new dog?

Bailey is is the baby pug that we have, but then we have Guinness,

the big boxer.

We're

two-thirds of the way to an Irish car bomb.

I think I've heard everything I need to order to make my decision.

I'm going to go dig into the earth now and lie there for two years decomposing with my thoughts.

In a moment, I will resurface with my decision.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Mark, your wife was put on the spot and couldn't come up with any examples of you acting weird for the sake of acting weird in public.

But I bet you've got some good examples.

Well,

I feel that she manipulated the end of that conversation.

Okay, what were you wearing that day that you were wearing the costume that wasn't really a costume?

Break it down for me.

I actually would probably normally dress like that.

What was on your head?

What was on your chest?

What was on your legs?

What was on your feet?

um on my feet i could tell you i probably had some maybe doc martens or something like that

okay so far you haven't said toe shoes pretty good no but it's not 1988

okay my turn so um i don't know what i was wearing on my uh as a shirt that day it was either a t-shirt or it was a uh like a black uh like button-down,

you know, short-sleeve shirt.

And then I had this black utilic that I was wearing.

Yeah.

Okay.

There you go.

Now it's Polly's turn.

Okay.

You've forfeited your turn as soon as you said the magic phrase, utilitilt.

Oh, sorry.

Polly, how do you feel about your chances in the case?

Well, I do hope that

the honorable judge is a sane and rational person and thinks my husband's a whackadoo.

So I think I may have a good chance here.

I'm hoping.

Mark, what are you going to do

when you dig up the gravesite of a beloved family pet and find

not a skeleton that's ready to be presented publicly, I guess,

but

other

stuff?

Well, it really depends on how much goo I find.

Yeah, I was trying not to say goo anymore because it's gross, but okay.

That's what I'm here for.

Yeah, Yeah, it's, I'm not particularly

interested in dealing with too much of that.

So if I were to find a lot, I would just bury her back up and call it a day.

Okay, we're done.

We're done.

We'll be back in just a second with Judge Hodgman's decision.

You know, we've been doing my brother, my brother, me for 15 years.

And

maybe you stopped listening for a while.

Maybe you never listened.

And you're probably assuming three white guys talking for 15 years.

I know where this has ended up.

But no, nope, you would be wrong.

We're as shocked as you are that we have not fallen into some sort of horrific scandal or just turned into a big crypto thing.

Yeah, you don't even really know how crypto works.

The only NFTs I'm into are naughty, funny things, which is what we talk about on my brother, my brother, and me.

We serve it up every Monday for you if you're listening.

And if not, we just leave it out back and goes rotten.

So check it out on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts.

All right, we're over 70 episodes into our show.

Let's learn everything.

So let's do a quick progress check.

Have we learned about quantum physics?

Yes, episode 59.

We haven't learned about the history of gossip yet, have we?

Yes, we have.

Same episode, actually.

Have we talked to Tom Scott about his love of roller coasters?

Episode 64.

So how close are we to learning everything?

Bad news.

We still haven't learned everything yet.

Oh, we're ruined.

No, no, no, it's good news as well.

There is still a lot to learn.

Woo!

I'm Dr.

Ella Hubber.

I'm regular Tom Lawman.

I'm Caroline Roper, and on Let's Learn Everything, we learn about science and a bit of everything else too.

And although we haven't learned everything yet, I've got a pretty good feeling about this next episode.

Join us every other Thursday on Maximum Fun.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom.

Did I hear from my chambers below the earth

that it wasn't just a kilt you were wearing, Mark?

It was a utility kilt?

Sure.

Oh, those are some fine kilts, but that's not a costume.

I don't know what you were going for with that.

That's just, that's it.

That's a utility kilt.

That's all.

I was actually just dressing fairly normally for myself.

Here's the thing.

Mark, your point of view is this,

and if I am to take you at your word, which I am not sure I am anymore after that utility kilt came to light.

Your argument is that you should be able to

dig up kudzu's body, treat it, get the bones out, and manipulate them any way you see fit because it seems like an intellectual and artistic challenge to you.

And

Polly, you argue, no, thank you, because I don't want even clean bones in my house, articulated or otherwise,

that is to say, as an ossuary, which is to say, in a pile,

because your other dogs may gnaw at the bones, and at very least, it might be upsetting to your children and not to your taste.

Correct.

Neither one of you has made an argument.

No one is speaking for kudzu.

This really strikes me as a weird omission.

That, Polly, you would not say, this was a beloved creature, and I feel that she must rest in peace.

And that we have gone through the trauma of losing a family member, and we don't want to literally dig it all up again.

And Mark, I am surprised you did not say, or at least try to peddle the line, that somehow this was going to honor kudzu even more than being buried in the lot.

So

it falls to me.

I speak for kudzu.

And by the way, Polly and Mark, I know you loved your dog.

But what's clear to me

is that Mark has engineered a confrontation

on a podcast with the premise of an alarming and rather morbid art project, mainly to get a reaction out of his wife.

Mission accomplished.

And thank you, Mark, because I enjoyed it too.

I only hope that your mother-in-law heard it, and she's upset too, because now you've accomplished everything that I think you really set out to do by suggesting you become a dog grave robber.

And the reason that I come down so harshly on you in this moment

is that

you benefited

from

the wisdom of a professional, a dead things professional.

Wisdom that was far greater than the wisdom I expected him to have.

This guy came loaded for bear

with very specific warnings and encouragements for how to do what you are prompting safely and artistically and with the greatest integrity towards indeed the animal who was your companion for some time.

And you were like, Yeah, maybe I'll do that.

You were driven by some perverse drive, not a desire

to

legitimately engage in what is,

for the Dr.

Hickses of the world and the Motor Museums of the world and the SkullsUnlimited.coms of the world, a true, if somewhat morbid, art form.

And so I can only conclude, since you are already dismissive of a guy who clearly knows what he's talking about, Mark, that your interest

is,

if I'm not going to say necessarily insincere, but dilettante-ish.

And it makes me less inclined.

If you simply said, I must do this, I need to feel that skull finally,

even then

I might feel like I want to rule in your favor because

you have an urge,

but I would only do so if I felt that you were actually engaging with sound professional advice that had been offered to you.

And so it makes me less inclined to rule in your favor because

what you're talking about is disturbing the remains of someone, of a thing that is not a human, but was still a part of your family.

And if you're going to do that,

you have to do it with a tremendous amount of respect

for the creature that Kudzu was, for the rotting corpse

that she is now and the challenges that that presents to people who take this seriously and respect for the wishes of your family to not engage and stare into the abyss that you feel the need to stare into.

As you can tell, my inclination is to rule in Polly's favor and let kudzu rest.

But I don't think that this issue will truly come to rest

until you gaze into that abyss and see what you are really dealing with.

And so,

I order you,

four years from this date,

I want you to unearth your family pet.

And I want you to really take the measure

of her condition,

which is dead,

And really take the measure of the moment that you have dug up a dog in your backyard

against the wishes of your wife and whatever your children may think.

And really consider whether or not you want to haul what is left of Kudzu out into the light

in order to follow through

on this elaborate prank on your wife and your mother, or mother, and to get that skull.

And I want you to consider all of these things,

and then I want you to make the right decision and rebury Kudzu without disturbing her remains and put this behind you.

And in the meantime, I suggest you hie yourself to skullsunlimited.com and get yourself some unarticulated skeletons that have already been cleaned and try putting them together.

Because if you want a challenge, man, that's it.

But

with the caveat that I think you must stare reverently and with full presence

into the maw of death that has taken over kudzu and will overtake us all.

I hereby rule that you let kudzu rest, you honor your wife's wishes, wishes, and you seek your weird jollies somewhere else.

Put some bones in your utility,

my friend.

This is the sound of a gavel.

Judge John Hodgman rules that is all.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Polly, how do you feel?

I'm pretty pleased with the verdict.

I can see my husband's face, and I can tell you he's a little upset.

He's going to claim that I wrongfully won, but

I'm pretty happy.

How about you, Mark?

How do you feel?

I was railroaded.

I think that Polly, who is a better liar than I am a truth-teller,

managed to convince the judge that

my motivation is to freak her and her mother out, which absolutely isn't true.

Well, I don't know.

I don't know.

If your wife is a liar, sir, although that's quite the accusation to throw around in a court of fake internet law.

But I can tell you this:

you are a terrible truth-teller, for it is you, sir, who chose to tell me that you own and regularly wear a utilikil.

A fact that sickens me more even, sir,

than the discussions of what will happen to my beloved dogs after they pass on to the next world.

And for that reason, I wish to hear no more from you.

Shut your pie hole, sir, and let it remain forever shut.

Cross your legs when you're sitting,

Mark.

Polly, thank you for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Thank you.

Thank you very much.

You guys go check out the Motor Museum, Skulls Unlimited.

I encourage you, Mark, to engage in this hobby

responsibly

and

see how you feel.

Polly,

have a great spring.

Thanks.

Thank you, Judge John.

Judge Hodgman, a thrilling conclusion to a terrifying case.

Yeah.

I can't even tell you how many elements of that case upset me.

Yeah, we might need to put a little bit of a warning out ahead of that one.

Frank discussion of

utilikilts.

Utilikilts.

I mean, it's just the trauma,

the trauma that I've experienced at the hem of the utilikilt is enough.

I don't know if I can go on.

But I want to say, I want to give Dr.

Hicks of the Motor Museum many, many thanks.

And maybe his own podcast, because that guy had some things to say.

Yeah, that guy's amazing.

He's been on Bullseye twice.

And last time

we were in Philadelphia, and he just brought all these weird things to electrocute me with.

Basically, if I could give an executive summary of the segment, it was

Dr.

Robert Hicks electrocutes public radio host Jesse Thorne.

Anyway, this week's case named by Corey Atterbury.

Thank you, Corey.

Thanks, Corey, for your contributions.

All right, Judge Hodgman, I've got some exciting news for you.

I love news.

We have a brand new segment on the program.

Just in time for the Max Fun Drive.

What a happy coincidence that is.

It's called Status Conference.

This is a real legal thing, this being a real fake court.

Thank you.

Wherein we check in on the current state of various already settled cases.

Fantastic.

We have so many amazing, interesting, weird dads and fun people out there whom we've talked to over the years.

And we're going to check in with them again and see whether they're still following my rulings or not, or if I've got to go out there and cause and set things right.

Oh, you know, you don't have to go out there and set things right.

I'll do it for you.

That's what bailiffs are for, all crackheads.

Thank you.

Cracking heads and shutting pie holes while John Hodgman takes a rest in chambers.

I like it.

I like this job.

Well, let's get right into it.

It just so happens that I have this magic bag full of cases, and I'll reach in and see what I can find.

Oh, it looks like it is Pig Pig and his daughters Kim and Jen from the case Father Gnaws Beast.

Do you remember what you remember with this one, John?

I absolutely do.

So the context is for our audience, Jen and Kim filed suit against their dad, whose name is Rick, but is known as Pig.

Sure.

And Rick loves meat.

And

Kim...

one of the daughters, is a vegetarian.

And I seem to recall that pizza figured heavily into this particular case.

When dining out as a family and ordering multiple dishes or pizza to share, Rick insisted that the pizza should always have lots of meat, like a meat lover's pizza for the table, even though his daughters are vegetarian and Kim and Jen wanted more vegetarian-friendly items when they were having these family-style dinners.

Yeah, exactly.

Exactly.

Your ruling, John.

Yes, thank you, because I do not remember.

Yeah, you said that pigs should consider eating less meat, not giving up meat, but eating less meat and especially eating more ethical meat.

And that any shared food should be at least 50% vegetarian-friendly because, and I think this was the emotional crux of this case.

I try to find it every time.

Having the opportunity to spend some time with his grown children should be reward enough for him.

He shouldn't also have to win a meat race.

You don't have to add pepperoni to family love.

Exactly.

So let's bring Kim, Jen, and Pig onto the program.

Hi, gang.

Hello.

Kim, you say, hi, it's Kim, so I know which one is Kim.

Hi, this is Kim.

And Jen?

And this is Jen.

And Pig, I know the sound of your voice.

Okay, there he is, the pig himself.

It's interesting because when I gave this ruling pig,

I was going through a near-vegetarian phase myself.

And since then, I have basically given up all vegetables and only beef jerky.

Oh, I'm glad you got over your vegetarian.

Well, no, I mean, I love a varied diet, but I often think of you whenever I open up a bag of beef jerky.

Because if I remember correctly,

your life is you don't eat anything all day long, and then at night you go full paleo and pound a salami or something, right?

Um, yeah, basically.

I'm actually eating more vegetables

since you gave your ruling.

So you've been abiding by my ruling then?

Yes.

I sent some of the rest of the rules.

I even added a new vegetable to my repertoire, bok choy.

Bok choy.

Bok choy is a nice vegetable.

It is a very good vegetable.

That is the mysterious watery vegetable of the East.

It's a pretty hardcore vegetable, too.

It's actually green.

Well, sure.

Is it a superfood?

Kim or Jen, why don't we talk about your father's new love of bok choy?

I sensed a little skepticism when he said he'd been eating more vegetables.

What's your take on it?

Either one of you?

Well, I've certainly

eaten bok choy, so I don't know about the new part of it.

He's trying to trick us.

And I also think that

I don't think I've actually seen him cook bok choy ever.

I think it's just considered one of the non-nasty vegetables.

I appreciate that we're all fixated on bok choy for a moment, but on a macro level, since my ruling, have you observed any change of behavior in your father with regard to his love of meat?

So I would say, this is Jen, I would say he has grudgingly abided by your ruling in ordering food.

There's always a lot of bitter complaining, but he does it.

Well, he's

a thing.

He's a dad.

He's a dad.

But we're hoping for a clarification and follow-up ruling on a new wrinkle of this that's arisen that maybe Kim can explain.

All right, go ahead.

My legal determiner suggested a motion for clarification.

Who shall make this motion?

I can explain.

So I think that's a good idea.

Let me just say one thing about eating more vegetables.

It's a lot easier to make a motion, if you know what I mean.

So

I'll let one of the vegetarians speak.

So I think that

Jen stated it very well that we are mostly wondering about when we dine out with what, as she called, the two people that we can strong-arm into also following this judgment that aren't in our family, that include my long-term boyfriend and her wife.

Both of them, you know, when they eat with either of us, are very, you know, her wife was vegetarian for six years, Jen, right?

Mm-hmm.

And my boyfriend actually has told me many times that he prefers eating vegetarian most of the time.

But when you all get together, we're sure you

No, we're strong in arming him into following the ruling.

Because what happens when so your

significant others are vegetarian friendly, but when you all get together with the pig, what happens?

So when we all get together, say that, you know, we are out to dinner with Jen and her wife, so it's five of us.

The pig will say that since Kate, Jen's wife, was not a part of the original podcast rule-in, that she does not count towards the half.

We should only have to order two vegetarian dishes and then three can be meat.

What a scheme.

Yeah, so he's finding some loopholes.

It seems logical to me.

This is like a contested convention situation.

We need a trusted broker.

I tell you, it doesn't seem logical to me because it just seems confusing to me.

What's the logic pig here?

That because...

Did you think that my ruling was that if you are out with your daughters only, then half the meal should be vegetarian.

And if you add other parties, no matter what they prefer, as long as they have eaten a piece of bacon in the year, they are de facto carnivores

and they and they

flip the stats.

No.

Well, I thought your ruling was only for our nuclear family.

No, incorrect.

Family dinners include significant others.

Nice try, the pig.

Can I make a buzz marketing recommendation, The Pig?

Sure.

Jack Link's small batch jerky number 11 has changed my life.

Now, let me just say right now, I do not want them to sponsor this podcast because by no means are these ethically raised animals.

And the small batch is undoubtedly a lie.

They are made in as big a batch as anything else.

But I've tried them all.

There's a lot of artisanal jerky going around Brooklyn these these days.

And I've been through a lot of gas stations on the road as well.

And of all the fine artisanal jerkies, I still have to say, Jack Link's imitation of an artisanal jerky, the small batch, number 11, don't go with number 17, the peppered, or number something else, the teriyaki, they're garbage.

The original flavor has changed my life.

How so?

I just like it, and I eat it a lot.

And I feel, and I feel, and I have bad breath.

That's how it's changed my life.

I wanted to share that with you before we said goodbye.

That will be some consolation for me saying to you, you're still wrong.

Jen, I understand you had a story that you wanted to relate.

Yeah, we thought your audience might enjoy hearing a story about the pig and meat that came up recently.

Our family traveled to Las Vegas together.

And the pig, when he travels, gets really nervous that there won't be enough meat available to satisfy him.

Even when we're going to Las Vegas, where you can literally get any food at any time.

Does he know he lives in the United States of America?

All right, move on.

So, when he was at the airport, he bought three Greek meat pies to bring with him for emergency meat for the trip.

Did this guy brought airport Greek meat?

He bought airport Greek meat in the form of pies

that he brought with him to Vegas, but he discovered we didn't have a fridge in our hotel room.

So, undeterred, he decided to put them in the coolest place in the room, which was the bathroom floor.

And he proceeded to snack on these meat pies as needed throughout

April 15th.

Let me pig.

I still haven't thrown up since 1985.

April 15th.

You hear that sound, Judge?

That was the pig dropping the microphone.

The fact that you haven't thrown up since 1985 cannot be a justification for any behavior.

You must have an incredible toxin buildup.

I don't even believe that toxins is a real thing, but man, you got to have some toxins.

You got to do some purging, my friend.

Pigs sweat?

Pigs don't sweat, right?

Occasionally.

Okay.

Pig,

setting aside for the moment, if not forever, I hope, the topic of your bathroom floor Greek meat snacking,

did you discover in Las Vegas that there was enough meat to go around for you?

Not absolutely.

We went to a buffet one day, but by

midnight, I was a little hungry, and I got the last piece of New York pizza in New York, New York.

Well, then, I guess you were right to sneak food into your bathroom.

I also snuck a magic hamburger into the magic shell because the prices were too high there.

You snuck a what?

A magic ham?

Hamburger.

A magic hamburger.

You snuck a hamburger into a magic show.

Yes.

Someday we're going to have the weird dad awards on Judge John Hodgman, and you know you will be one of the, you'll, you'll, you'll be the Leonardo DiCaprio of that.

She's highly honored.

Right now I'm picturing, you know the, you know the scarf trick where they're pulling the scarf out of their sleeves and it just keeps coming and coming?

Yeah.

I'm picturing that for the pig, but with linked sausages.

I'll try that next to McGregor.

Did you sneak that in in the same backpack that you stored your turkey leg in?

Absolutely.

Well, this is getting terrifying.

So, pig,

Kim, Jen, thank you so much for checking in with us.

Thank you so much.

Don't cheat the law.

And we'll get back to you when we get the Weird Dad Awards up and running.

Okay.

We think of your show all the time.

We're going to have a very interesting gift bag for you.

Hey, Jesse, send the pig a pound of frozen peas on me.

Check can do, Monfreyer.

You can go to maximumfund.org to check out all of the amazing thank you gifts

and support Maximum Fund and especially support the production of this show.

Support not just us, but the studios, the production production time that we use,

folks like Julia and our editor, Mark McConville, and Ibari and Expirello, who helps with setting up the calls.

All of these folks work really hard.

They all earn a wage that is paid for by people like you who listen and support this show and all of Maximum Fund shows by going to maximumfund.org slash donate.

Yeah, I'm here at the Angry Lamb Studios in Clinton Hill, Brooklyn with Josh Feinstein because my computer died.

And, you know, this guy doesn't work for free.

I hope not.

Or do you?

No, he doesn't.

Damn.

But

he's giving us a sweetheart rate, and we're very grateful to him.

But yeah, we do still pay him, as we do everyone who works on this show.

And the way that we're able to pay everyone who works on this show is because the folks who listen to it support it.

They pay for it.

So go to maximumfund.org slash donate.

It's easy.

It's quick.

The main thing is, as my friend Judge John Hodgman says, don't, don't do it.

Do, do, do it.

I did say that.

I wish I remembered things I said.

I guess that's why I have a podcast.

So there are recordings of my things that, what are the things that come out of my mouth?

Oh, right, words.

We'll see you at Max Fun Meetup Day on Tuesday the 22nd, maximumfund.org slash meetups.

If you want to find where the meetup near you is on our live streaming Pledge Drive finale show that Friday evening, and of course, on social media with the hashtag MaxFundDrive and at maximumfund.org slash donate.

We love you all.

Even those of you wearing utiliquelts right now.

It's very utilitarian choice.

Look, and you're probably catching some cool breezes.

So that's you're having a good time.

Yeah, you're not sweating it, literally.

I am very, very grateful to be able to make this podcast for all of you and grateful to those of you who are able to donate.

So I just want to say thank you in advance, in the present and in the future.

MaximumFund.org slash donate.

Goodbye.

MaximumFund.org.

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