The Glass-Action Lawsuit

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

This week, the glass action lawsuit.

Dan files suit against his girlfriend, Jessica.

Jessica has a pair of low-grade prescription eyeglasses.

She prefers not to wear them.

She says they're not attractive.

Dan says she's missing out on life by refusing to wear the glasses.

Who's right, who's wrong?

Only one man can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents the obscure cultural reference.

Shed the days like skin, pray for evenings in.

Hold their hands in the street when you walk them off to school.

A box too full to shut, cardboard paper cut, bleeding edge of a picture of your parents when they were cool.

Bailiff Jesse Thorne, swear them in.

Please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you, God, or whatever?

I do.

I do.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that in lieu of corrective lenses, he simply has a pet eagle who tells him what he sees?

Yes, I do.

I do.

Very well, Judge Hodgman.

Dan, Jessica, you may be seated.

Yeah, it's not only

an eagle-eyed eagle, as a little bit of a cliche, but hey, there are stereotypes for a reason.

It's also one of those English-speaking eagles.

You know what?

I wish everyone could have one, but only I can.

Sorry.

Most people can only afford a Portuguese-speaking eagle.

Oh,

those.

Well, I wish I knew the Portuguese currency right now.

I guess it's Euros at this point, right?

Yeah, I think they're in the Eurozone.

That was part of the problem, right?

Exactly so.

Those Euro a dozen.

Is dozen metric?

We'll say it is.

Eagles, Portuguese eagles.

Dan and Jessica,

for an immediate summary judgment in one of yours' favors,

can either one of you name the piece of,

I would say, popular culture that I quoted directly as I entered the courtroom.

Jessica, you have been dragged into this courtroom against your will by Dan, so you get the first chance to guess, or you can ask that Dan guess first.

Wow.

I would be really bad at this.

Good.

That's good for me.

When people are good at it, it gets complicated.

It sounded like

a poem, but this is more of a pop culture reference.

That may have been the rhyming that made it sound like a poem.

Maybe there are lyrics,

lyrics to a song that I don't know.

Judge Hodgman, you know, some poems rhyme, but it doesn't have to rhyme to be a poem.

That didn't rhyme, Jesse.

What are you doing?

Well, Dan's the writer, so if it is, he'll probably know it.

Well, so your guess is lyrics to some song that I don't know.

Let me just enter that into the record.

It's a solid guess.

It's a guess.

It's definitely a guess.

Should I be more specific?

Name a song you don't know.

The glasses song.

The glasses song.

Okay.

The glasses song.

The glasses song.

All right.

It's probably relevant to what we're talking about today, so that's my best guess.

Dan, are you ready to make your guess?

Yes.

Is that a Jonathan Colton song known as Glasses?

Well, both guesses are right.

So it's a tie.

Wow.

Yeah.

What was great about that, I had a feel.

Look, Obviously, the song is Glasses by Jonathan Colton off of his 2011 superlative album, Artificial Heart.

With the chorus, of course, being

so much to say, I forgot to start.

There goes a day, fading as it passes.

Here comes the rhyming, Jesse.

Forget the gray, let it fall apart.

It's okay.

I like you in glasses.

This is my favorite song on this album.

And even though I recognize that there's probably a lot of Ven, as they say, a lot of overlap

between Jonathan Colton fans and listeners to this podcast.

And I had a feeling that one of you would know it.

And Dan, you're the one who did.

And I could tell immediately when he said,

I think my guess is...

I just knew the tone of your voice you knew it.

But luckily for me and all of the listeners, your lovely girlfriend, Jessica, took one of the greatest leaps of faith of all time and simply said, glasses.

She guessed it correctly out of nowhere.

Just in the same way.

I have to bear.

I don't even know who Jonathan Colton is.

Good for you.

He's not like a secret guest.

You have a full and complete life

and a terrific journey into music ahead of you.

But I, so

you amended your guess to be the glasses song, but your first guess was glasses.

That's the one I put in.

And the fact that you guessed it allows me to take great pleasure in nullifying Dan's guess.

No.

And therefore, no summary judgment is made.

And we will hear the case.

Now, Dan,

you are in a romantic relationship with Jessica of about how long?

A little under a year at this point.

And you discovered that she was keeping a terrible secret from you.

What was the secret?

I learned recently,

maybe just in the last month or two, that Jessica has prescription glasses that she never wears.

I see.

And what are the glasses for, Jessica?

What are they correcting?

Your eyes, I presume.

That's right.

I'm apparently slightly nearsighted in one eye and slightly far-sighted in the other eye.

Oh, I don't even know what that is.

Did you see an eye doctor for this?

Did they tell you what that is?

I did.

So I get a lot of headaches.

And about

seven years ago, they thought it might be because of my vision.

And when I went to see an eye doctor, he told me that I had this

slightly off vision and told me that I should wear the glasses as needed.

Prescribed me the glasses.

I got them, and I wear them as needed ever since.

So, but obviously, not very much if the special person in your life, well, first of all, let's just be clear, it's 2016 now.

Have you ever met in person, you guys?

On a few occasions.

Okay.

All right.

Do you live in the same town?

We live in the same borough of Brooklyn.

Okay.

And do you live together?

Do you cohabitate?

Not yet.

Okay.

But sounds like you hope that that might be true in the future.

Correct.

All right.

So you've got double wonky eyes, but you don't wear your glasses.

Dan discovers this 10 months into the relationship.

How did you discover it, Dan?

She was showing me some old photos

before we met, and she happened to pull one up.

And you're like, oh, who is that ugly, horrible spinster librarian?

I've never seen such a foul creature before.

No,

it was just,

she was just showing me this photo of her, and she's like, look at me, there's me and my glasses.

And I'm like, glasses?

You don't wear glasses.

Right.

And then she confessed.

Yes, that's right.

So wait, Jesse, you may have already said this, but when were you diagnosed with weirdo eyes?

I think it was about seven years ago I was in college so it might have been a little longer ago than that

and have you have you you got your prescription for your glasses then

and have you been have you had a new a new prescription since then

well when I was in graduate school so about three years ago I had my eyes checked again showed them the glasses that I had prescribed to me and they said those were a good fit for my vision.

So they said,

stay with what you know.

Yes.

All right.

And so, Dan, you want me to order Jessica to wear her glasses all the time.

Why?

Do you feel that she's

causing

she's putting her and your life at risk by walking around?

No, I don't think so.

And I wouldn't even go as far to say as all the time.

Let's do it anyway.

Okay, sure, all the time.

I've noticed that,

you know,

once I learned this secret that Jessica had, I started, you know, sort of testing her.

Like, well,

look across the room.

Is that, can you read this?

And, you know, like a distance of, let's say, like eight or nine feet,

not far past from the couch to the television, for instance.

And sure enough.

What a fun date, by the way.

Sure enough, her vision is blurry.

And she's admitted that when we, you know, we attend,

movies from time to time, and we go to the live theater, as it were, and

she's admitted that she cannot necessarily see faces.

They blur for her.

So when we're

viewing

these cultural pieces,

movies and plays.

Movies, plays, musicals, a lot of musicals.

Well, he's talking about live theater, as it were.

He means that he's probably speaking semi-metaphorically about the theater of of life.

Right, okay, gotcha.

Sure.

A lot of musicals, you say?

Yeah, we are,

I am of the musical theater world.

So I have

inducted Jessica into this strange world of singing and dancing.

You are of it in the sense that you participate in it or you go to see it a lot?

You're a stage door Danny?

Or are you a creator of some kind?

Both.

I write lyrics and the libretto, and I work with a writing partner, and we write musicals.

And any that have been produced on Broadway?

Not yet.

Okay, but you're still, but that's the idea.

So you go see a lot of musicals, and you notice that Jessica does not know what's going on.

It's all just a bunch of pale smudges.

Is that true, Jessica?

Totally not true.

All right.

Sometimes it's blurry.

It depends on how good the seat stand gets are, right?

Exactly.

I mean, maybe it's not my eyes.

Maybe it's the seats.

Maybe your boyfriend's too cheap.

But some faces look better blurry, in my defense.

Wow.

Like your boyfriend's?

No, his face is lovely.

His face is lovely.

No, but in all seriousness, I mean, I always know what's going on.

I'm not sitting there watching, you know, a blurry blob and just refusing to put my glasses on.

Well, why don't you?

But you are refusing to put your glasses on, right?

You're not putting them on.

Yeah, so sometimes I leave them at work because that's the only time I really use them.

What is your job?

I am a lender.

An airline pilot?

That would be unfortunate.

No, I don't do any driving in my job.

And I

work in the renewable energy space.

And so I stare at a computer screen for large amounts of time.

And sometimes when that gets blurry, I need to put my glasses on because I need to see the numbers so I can give out loans.

When you say that you're a lender in the renewable energy space, you just mean you're a battery, right?

I lie in a tank of nutrient solution, and

I give up some of my biomechanical energy to the robots that control this world.

Exactly.

Exactly.

I'm the solution for the future, storage.

So you spend all day looking at a screen, and then sometimes the screen gets blurry.

Now, here's what I, here, this,

you, one eye is near-sighted, and one eye is far-sighted.

This may be a very common issue, but it's not one

that I've heard of a lot.

So

you don't have a special prescription for close-up and a special prescription for far away?

No, I have a prescription that has different

lenses for each side.

Oh, okay.

Yeah, well, that makes sense, doesn't it?

So, you just don't like the way they look on you.

Is that it?

Yeah, that's basically it.

I mean, how do they make you look?

Well, they mess up my makeup.

They make my nose all red from wearing them.

Do they make your nose all red?

Well, just

where they sit on my nose.

Oh, okay.

There's a red band on it.

Hidden by the glasses.

Well, but when I take them them off.

You mean like to emphasize a point in law and order style?

Yes.

I'm only supposed to wear them as needed.

So if I go from looking at a computer where I need them to sitting in a meeting with a bunch of people where I don't like the way I look, I want to take them off.

But then I have this red line on my nose.

I think it's something about the way my face is shaped.

It's just not, I don't think they look good on me.

I don't feel confident in them.

Is that about the particular glasses that you have or glasses in general?

Glasses in general.

I actually really like the glasses that I have.

They're timeless.

Well, Dan or you sent in some evidence.

Oh, Jessica sent in this evidence.

And it's a photo of this

very beautiful young woman wearing glasses, and then a photo of a very beautiful young woman not wearing glasses.

And this is the same beautiful young woman.

And as someone who

wears glasses and has basically only ever fallen in love with people who wear glasses,

I'm not seeing what it is that you see when you see a photo of yourself wearing glasses.

What is it that you see in this photo of yourself holding this imported beer and having a good time with some friends in a bar that I that I that I don't, that you feel that you dislike?

I mean, I look hideous in that photo.

It was carefully selected.

You don't look hideous in this photo.

Well, thank you.

That's nice.

Well,

what looks hideous to you in this photo?

The glasses are all crooked on my face, and you can't see my beautiful eyes,

and they're a distraction.

You look right at the glasses.

Well,

I will grant you that the glasses.

No, I don't, actually, I grant you nothing.

But I will say this in front of your boyfriend.

You have beautiful eyes.

Do you consider them to be...

Thank you.

Well, but I mean,

it's true that, you know, glasses can enhance or interfere with, but they're definitely an aesthetic

addition.

to the eyes especially.

Do you consider your eyes to be one of your

one of the qualities of which you are proudest and perhaps even most vain about?

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

I know that they're wonderful.

All right.

So why don't you wear contact lenses?

They were invented last year.

Well, he didn't prescribe me contact lenses.

That's true.

It's probably impossible for her to obtain contact lenses.

She might be able to go to Europe, for example, to some underground dealer.

Yeah, or Mexico City.

Yeah, for example.

But surely contact lenses would be available for you and you could wear them and then

you wouldn't have to switch out.

I guess what I would say to that is if I saw it to be creating a really serious problem in my life, I would definitely do that.

I'm a problem solver.

I'm very resourceful.

I just don't see what the problem is.

So you prefer not to wear glasses.

You like the way you look without glasses.

Dan, why don't you just let her do what she's going to do?

Because I feel, and my argument is that she doesn't want to be able to do that.

I mean, you already had

your fun control date where you made her look at a bunch of things

at different distances.

Didn't you get what you wanted out of that?

Well, my feeling is that

if she were to just wear them when we, let's say, go to the movie theater or go to the theater and it's in the dark, nobody can see that she's wearing them even, nobody's looking at her, that she would greatly enhance her enjoyment of whatever she's viewing.

Well, that's a good question.

Why don't you wear glasses in the theater?

I mean,

Jessica, when you go to the movies, can you see better with glasses?

Undoubtedly.

Undoubtedly.

And yet, for the most part, when you go to the movies or go to the musical theater, you don't wear glasses or you prefer not to?

That's the point where I said that I don't wear them because I usually leave them at work.

Oh, okay.

Conveniently.

Do you think she's conveniently inconveniently?

Yeah, great.

Do you think she's lying?

Do you think that she leaves them at work purposefully so she doesn't have to wear them when she gets to the theater?

I don't know if it's intentional, but I definitely don't think she has the glasses.

There's certainly no way to find out if it's intentional or not.

Ask her.

Go on.

Jessica?

Yes.

Will you marry me?

Oh!

Jesse, that was for later, and also you're already married.

Fair point.

Fair point.

So, Jessica, I was going to ask you,

are you intentionally leaving your glasses behind at work?

No.

Okay, then.

She's under fake oath.

You have to accept that answer.

All right then.

So would you like me to order Jessica then to stop forgetting her glasses at work if you are going to the musical theater?

Yeah, pretty much.

I would say that she should be more cognizant of having them on her so that when we attend anything that requires distance viewing, she can have the optimal experience.

And why is it important to you that she have the optimal experience?

Because I want to share these things with her.

I'm super passionate about the things that I get tickets to.

Some of my favorite movies I have her watch.

And there are you know, plays I'm excited for us both to see and share and talk about.

And I feel like she's at a disadvantage by not seeing facial expressions or small nuances that can affect performances.

Jessica, quick question.

Yes.

Do you give a feces about the musical theater?

So I like going.

Okay.

I do.

All right.

I did not go much before I met Dan.

It's not a passion you share at the same level as Dan.

We're not trying to trap you.

I'm just trying to get a sense of

how much you care about this stuff

in contrast to him.

Well, I do have something to say about what Dan just said, if I may.

Please.

So I know that Dan loves me very much and that he just wants me to enjoy myself.

But

there's a little bit more to it than that.

He seems to think that sometimes I don't enjoy the shows that he enjoys just because I couldn't see them.

Right.

And actually,

they're just bad.

Yeah.

In fact, you're protecting yourself from these terrible shows by keeping a blurry veil between you and they.

Exactly.

All right.

Let's get down to it.

What show did Dan take you to that was bad?

Oh,

I hated Les Miz.

The guy died.

I didn't care.

Greatest Yelp review ever.

Well, there's a guy dying in almost everything.

So we went to go see recently this

farce.

I think it's a British show called Noise Office.

Noises Off.

Saw that one coming because I'm wearing my glasses, my musical theater glasses.

Saw that one coming from a mile away.

I've never seen that show.

Was it dumb?

So it was actually kind of a terrifying experience for me.

Because there was all these blurry people yelling at me.

Well,

literally, everyone in the theater was laughing except me.

And the Times loved it, and Dan loved it.

And I just felt like, what's wrong with me?

What are some things

that you like?

Because the guy fell down the stairs.

That's not funny.

i wish i could see that

i haven't seen that so good it was so good you loved it right dan i loved it it's classic farce uh it just executed flawlessly i i had a great time i see i see that okay so did any of y'all see um hand of god no what is that

It is a play

that I think Bob Sagitt is in now, or maybe it closed, but about a boy who makes a sock puppet, and that sock puppet becomes possessed by the devil.

How did I miss this, Dan?

That was funny.

It was really good.

Yeah.

Was that a play here in New York City?

That's correct.

All right.

And you liked that very much.

Yes, like that's comedy.

It was so funny.

It was the best theater experience I ever had.

Uh-huh.

And did you wear your glasses?

No.

No.

I looked bad in them.

I see.

Do you feel like you missed out because

you didn't actually get to see Bob Sagett in all his glory?

No, I mean, I can still see.

I just.

She couldn't see him sweating, though.

You gave us all a pretty hearty yaw there.

Where are you from originally, Jessica?

Originally, I'm from Ocean Springs, Mississippi.

Okay.

So, but

where you were growing up and when you were growing up.

See, because Dan, where are you from?

Long Island originally.

Right.

So, you know, I'm from Brookline, Massachusetts.

We grow up among and amidst a bunch of glasses wearers.

It's very normalized for us.

But

the girls in your high school or the young women in your high school, if they wore glasses, was that something of a signifier, say, of nerddom?

Absolutely, yes.

And would you say that that lingers somewhat in your heart as well?

Maybe a little.

But it's not really about looking nerdy.

I am kind of nerdy.

Sure, but

I don't feel confident in that.

You moved to Brooklyn and you're about to shack up with a dude who writes musical theater.

It's pretty,

you know what I mean?

You take that back home to Ocean Springs.

They might have something to say.

I see your point.

Yeah, but I think that's where the vanity comes from.

Southern women are, they wear makeup to the gym.

It's a cultural difference.

It's a cultural difference.

Oh, yeah.

I'm saying that with complete neutrality.

I'm just

that when I when I heard that, y'all, suddenly I was like, oh, I see what's going on here.

She didn't grow up watching public television in Brookline, Massachusetts.

I bet.

No, I did not.

I bet she doesn't cotton to a Doctor Who scarf either.

But, Dan, you'll wear a Doctor Who scarf, wouldn't you?

You listened to Jonathan Colton.

Yep.

Wow.

Did you play any sports when you were in high school?

Not you, Dan.

Yeah, definitely not.

Jessica.

I did most of my

sports a lot before high school.

I did cheerleading and I did dance team.

I did play soccer for a little while in high school, but I stopped when I broke my back.

Oh, my goodness.

How did you break your back?

Car accident.

Were you driving?

I wasn't.

She wasn't wearing her glasses.

Okay.

All right.

Sorry to make light of your life-threatening injury, but please tell me.

Okay.

So

I wanted to go to college.

Nobody in my family went to college.

And I wanted to go to Columbia.

So I was like, I need to do something.

So I transferred to this school in northern Mississippi, the Mississippi School for Mathematics and Science.

And it's four and a half hours north of.

No Miss, Math, and Psy?

I'm sorry?

No Miss, Math, and Psy?

I know that school.

It's in Columbus.

It's actually where the Mississippi University for Women is.

Oh, okay.

As well.

What's their mascot, the Portuguese eagle?

It's probably like a fried okra or something on that.

I like it.

I'll go there.

Okay.

So anyway, you decided you need to do something, so you went to Nomiths, Math, and Psy.

Yes.

I stayed up all night studying for my physics final,

which I got 100 on.

Well done.

And fell asleep about three hours into my drive home for Christmas.

No.

I have a titanium leg.

Well, at least you're superhuman now.

Yeah,

it's pretty badass.

Dan, how did you meet your cyborg bride?

You don't think we run in the same circles?

No.

She's too good for you.

We met using a popular dating app.

Oh, really?

Ah, Grinder.

Close.

No, it's cyborger.

Got it.

Borger.

It's called.

Borger.

I'm sorry that you broke your back.

I don't know if anyone else was hurt and I don't want to know.

But was your recovery long and painful or what happened?

How did that change your life?

Well, I wrote a great essay about it and I got into Columbia like I wanted to, so that was good.

Good.

Recovery took a long time.

I was in physical therapy for about seven years.

I had to relearn how to walk again when I got out of my wheelchair.

I had to go back to school with this big plastic turtle brace around me.

It was hard.

And did you put off going to Columbia during that time?

Did you have to wait seven years before you could matriculate at Columbia?

No, no, no.

Everything was on schedule.

I graduated on time.

Oh, okay.

But you were doing all this physical therapy and all this other stuff through

your college.

Did you go to Columbia for graduate school after No Miss Math and Psy?

Or I misunderstood?

No, I think you and I are alums of the same institution for my grad school.

You're a Yaley, huh?

That's true.

And if you think that will sway this court, then you're correct.

Awesome.

Yeah, I did my undergrad at Columbia.

Oh, you did your undergrad.

So Northern Mississippi Math and Science was to get into Columbia for undergrad.

Is that correct?

Do I understand?

Yes.

All right.

And when you fell asleep, is it traumatic for me to ask what happened?

Oh, I don't remember the whole month.

I I don't remember anything.

But you.

It wasn't my car.

I don't even know why I was driving.

I do now.

Did you collide with another car, or did you just go off the road?

Just went off the road.

It was a one-car rollover.

And so, and you were the sole driver?

I was in the driver's seat.

My friend was in the passenger seat, and there was someone laying down in the back seat.

And are they okay or no?

Yes, everybody's okay.

Okay.

Well, that's a remarkable story.

And then you came here to Columbia.

And you majored in Columbia in

Bionices.

Economics.

Okay.

And then you went to Yale for graduate school in

economics and I got a

no, I got a master's in environmental management, focused in energy, and I got an MBA.

And then this dude, Dan, finds you on Borger one day.

And

he says, his bio just says, I'm an aspiring lyricist.

Basically.

Yeah.

And now

he's got a maid in the shade because he's got this beautiful woman with a titanium leg and a real career who likes him.

And that's when, Dan, you decided, like, let's figure out what I can criticize.

Am I wrong?

Smart movement.

I really like that summary.

What would you consider to be an evening of entertainment, whether it required glasses or not?

You liked this hand of God play,

but Dan's dragging you into his world to see these shows.

And that's not inappropriate.

That's what couples do to share of each other, right?

But are you also dragging him into your world to go do your thing?

And what would your thing be in an equivalent way?

Well, I tried.

I'm really into college football.

So during the season, I would always try to get him to watch LSU games.

I'm a big LSU fan.

Okay.

Go Tigers.

Go Portuguese Eagles.

Go UC Santa Cruz Banana Slugs.

He probably watched max 15 minutes of one game.

And did he have the excuse of not wearing his glasses so he couldn't pay attention?

He did not.

Do you?

Okay, I got you.

And Dan, do you not like football?

That's correct.

I'm with you on this one, Dan.

I'm very glad that

my wife and the person who's been in my life for so long shares my utter disinterest in sports because it would be a challenge for me to see sports.

What do you find distasteful about sports?

Everything seems so arbitrary.

There's such fervor for teams that, you know, if you were lifelong passions and if you happen to be born in the city over, you'd care about a different team.

And

everybody has such an investment in the outcome.

And I feel like the only people that legitimately have an investment in the outcome are the players and the owners of the teams.

You feel that other people's investments are illegitimate?

What a nerd.

I can't believe I just made that argument public.

Well, I like it.

I like it.

But you actually raise an interesting point.

Jessica, why LSU?

Because that's...

Why not the gnomis sci-fi Portuguese Eagles or whatever?

Why do you like that team?

LSU, because that's God's team.

They're amazing.

So let's not.

I love them.

Okay, but can we get outside of the self-reinforcing non-logic of sports phantom?

So actually, there are the.

What's your connection to LSU?

Why did you, did you grow up?

Is Ocean Springs sort of in the LSU

sort of extended neighborhood?

Yes, it's the closest to me.

It's much closer than the upstate, Mississippi State, or Almost.

Okay, gotcha.

All right.

So in a sense, it is kind of a hometown team.

Yes.

I'm an adopted Cajun.

Oh,

now are you?

Or only in a sports way?

Only in a sports way.

Okay, good enough.

I got it.

So

I think I've heard everything I need to make my decision.

You guys have been dating for 10 months?

11.

Yeah, 11 now.

Yeah, she's keeping track.

We have plans to see a musical on our anniversary.

What musical are you going to see?

She loves me.

What musical is that?

I don't know what's going on on Broadway if it's not Hamilton.

That's, yeah.

She loves me.

It's a Harnick and Bach musical.

It's the same guys who who wrote Fiddler on the Roof.

Oh, okay.

It's the shop around the corner, that story, the musical adaptation.

Okay, I gotcha.

And Jessica, are you looking forward to seeing this musical or partially seeing it, as the case may be?

Sure.

I mean, I'm always excited to see it.

I always give it a fair chance.

Hamilton was amazing.

Yeah, you got to see Hamilton.

When did you see Hamilton?

Dan, when did we see him?

Over the summer, I think.

Over the summer.

Did you see it with Lynn Miranda or or did you see it with Javier Munoz as Hamilton?

Do you remember?

Yeah,

we saw Javier.

We went on a Sunday matinee.

Yeah, me too.

I just did it.

It was great.

I was glad I had my glasses on.

Did you wear the glasses to Hamilton?

I did not.

You did not?

Wow.

That's the biggest ticket in the world.

If you were going to wear glasses to the house.

I was all just fine.

You You tell the founding fathers apart by their flows.

That's true.

You know what?

That's true, though.

There's definitely a Lafayette motif versus a Hamilton motif.

Lafayette, and then there's Hamilton.

Exactly.

People know what I'm talking about.

But still, Jessica, you had me in the palm of your titanium hand.

To the moment you said you didn't wear your glasses to see Hamilton.

Now, I don't know.

Oh, no.

If you had a choice,

is there some, well, not even to make it a choice.

You're going to see this musical on your anniversary,

whether you like it or not.

Do you like it or not?

I like it.

I'm excited about it.

You are.

And is there something that you would like to do for your anniversary

that would be a little bit more of your thing?

I enjoy a nice cocktail.

We're doing that beforehand.

Where are you going?

The Iroquois Hotel.

All right.

It's a little

theater haunt called

Lanterns Keep that we went to on our first date.

Oh, cool.

And what day are you going?

March 5th.

March the 5th.

Good.

I'll see you there.

Sounds like fun to me.

All right, I think I've heard everything I need to hear.

I am going to go into my own Lanterns Keep and have a little justice cocktail, and I will be right back to render my decision.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Dan, how do you feel about your chances in this case?

Well, based on the judge's comment that he was,

you know, sort of very inclined to favor Jessica until her last comment about Hamilton, I'm a little nervous, but

I'm hopeful that we'll reach an outcome that's palatable to both of us.

Dan, you realize that you've couched your entire argument in

perhaps false concern for this woman that you love, when in fact, it seems almost completely clear that what it's about is you not liking that she doesn't like the stuff that you tried to make her like.

There's maybe an element of truth in that, and that

we all, of course, always want the people we love to like the things that we like.

It's sort of a human instinct, but

I am really concerned about her being able to just take in everything the way it was intended to be seen, whether she likes it or not.

I think

she should just be able to at least see it as it was intended.

Jessica, how do you feel about your chances in the case?

I don't know.

I mean,

I have to admit, I don't listen to the podcast very much, so I can't draw on the past to try and predict the future.

But

you probably don't listen to the podcast that much just because it's blurry without your glasses.

I can hear it just fine.

I don't know.

I'm feeling pretty good.

I think he wants me to do what I want to do.

Well, we'll see what Judge John Hodgman has to say about all this when we come back in just a second.

You're listening to Judge John Hodgman.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

Of course, the Judge John Hodgman podcast, always brought to you by you, the members of maximumfun.org.

Thanks to everybody who's gone to maximumfund.org/slash join.

And you can join them by going to maximumfun.org/slash join.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom.

So obviously, there is a huge cultural aspect and cultural divide

to this dispute and to this relationship.

I've talked a lot about

in my career the overall philosophy of jockeism

versus the overall philosophy of nerdism.

And the the overall philosophy of, and both have their virtues.

The overall philosophy of nerdism, of course, is intellectualism,

the kind of deep critique that would allow one to say what Dan said about sports, the only investment is the people on the field and their owners, and skepticism towards power.

and

a questioning attitude, all of which is necessary in a functioning society.

And then

the downsides of nerdism, of course, is

ambivalence and waffling and indecisiveness and a kind of know-it-all-ness that makes you jump out and say, I believe that's a Jonathan Colton song.

Those are the downsides there.

And then

the downsides and the upsides

of jockeys

as a philosophy and a way of life is a belief in clear right and wrong,

a can-do-it

attitude, and a decisive attitude and

a trust and belief in authority systems such as Let's Do What Coach Says and a belief in teamwork

that allows people to get together in teams or even just on their own and overcome enormous obstacles.

But I do believe you in

when you say, if I put my mind to it, I could do anything.

Because you've done it.

You know, went through that horrible physical and emotional calamity and

you set a goal for yourself.

And through force of will, you got to where you wanted to be.

And,

you know, I would say lesser nerds would have collapsed under what you achieved in your life.

And I acknowledge that and I applaud you.

And I have to say, you know,

you're

Dan, you're in for a lifelong adventure so long as you stay together with this person because

you are of

a different world, a different culture.

You and I are of a culture where, of course, you wear your glasses to the musical theater

the same way you wear your glasses to the art house film you're going to go see.

The same way you wear your glasses to the ethnic restaurant you're going to visit with your parents when you're an only child.

The same as you wear your glasses to the street corner at the appointed time for the bully to beat you up.

Exactly.

The same way you wear your glasses to your monthly glasses appointments to have your glasses adjusted.

And

that is a world that I do not diminish

and a world that I love as well.

But

it was definitely the case that I shared with you.

Dan, the same kind of like, why won't you just wear your glasses to the theater or to the movies so you can see better?

It's in, you know, it's, it's scientifically proven that it helps your vision.

Why don't you just do this rational thing?

And instead cling to this entirely irrational, vain, I don't feel like it

decision-making process, which is this gut-level decision-making process of the jock.

No, I'm not going to do that thing.

And so it took me some time, though, and not, well, it took me some time, but not a lot of time, to simply talk through it with Jessica and appreciate that

she knows when she wants to see things clearly, and she knows when she doesn't have to see things clearly.

I can only guess, Jessica, that you would ever in a million years, after what you've gone through, put yourself in a situation where your lack of vision would

cause danger to yourself or to another human being, correct?

Absolutely.

Right.

And the fact is that as bad as her vision may or may not be, she can see straight through you, Dan.

She knows right away that what this is truly about

is you trying to

cajole her into loving the things that you love.

Now, Jessica,

you've never listened to this podcast before,

so you don't know that we have this long-standing

fake legal precedent that people like what they like.

And

it's hard and problematic and usually ill-advised to try to make people like something that you like.

You feel what I mean?

There's only so far you can go to make the people in your life like the things that you like.

And I think Dan is hoping that if you wear your glasses, suddenly you'll see clearly the same thing that he loves about, say, noises off.

But Dan,

she's no dum-dum.

She liked the sock puppet devil thing.

Noises Off just didn't connect with her.

And I bet you the glasses were not the problem.

And Dan, let me also say that

if I were an aspiring, not even a lyricist for Broadway musicals, but an aspiring one,

And I was in a relationship with a woman I love who also happened to have

an undergraduate degree in economics and a master's degree in

environmental stewardship or some kind, right?

Renewable energy.

Yes, and I have another one in business administration.

Yeah, right, yeah.

And had a full-time job and a titanium leg.

I mean, she is of the future.

Broadway is of the past.

I would be with, no offense.

it's a you know obviously it's a it's a thriving and vibrant art form Hamilton is a great example of it but you know what I'm saying she's got she's a side she's a cyborg with degrees in renewable energy and a job this is not one you want to

you don't want to piss this one off Dan

that's valid

you want to keep her happy

That said,

you got to put on your glasses at Hamilton.

Come on.

I think it's fine for you to go through your life with an impediment, Jessica, and to not wear your glasses out and about at times when you feel

that

they will make you feel self-conscious or uncomfortable or

not as pretty, or they'd just be distracting to you, or just you know, wearing glasses can be a pain in the neck, or specifically a pain in the ears and the bridge of the nose sometimes.

I get it.

And I think that thing is just fine so long as you're not putting anyone's life in danger.

But I think you don't owe it to Dan,

but you owe it to yourself

to find a pair of glasses that will allow you to see filmed and staged entertainment clearly.

And there is a long tradition, of course, of wearing glasses in the theater called opera glasses or theater glasses, like little beautiful binoculars.

I make this decision

with the greatest respect.

And I have to say I probably wouldn't have done it

if you hadn't told me

that you only went and half saw Hamilton.

Because

this is the most important thing in my life right now.

Bad luck for you.

And

one of the most amazing

one of the, I mean, you can enjoy it just by listening to it, as I've said before on this podcast.

But now that I've had the great pleasure of seeing it, this is one of them, it's a piece of theatrical history.

And nothing like it, it'll never quite exist again in the same way, even once it goes on tour or whatever.

It's a huge moment

at the crossroads of

Broadway of the past and Broadway of the future, and just this amazing thing.

You saw it.

You liked it, right?

You might not have liked it as much as I did, but you liked it, right, Jessica?

Oh, I loved it.

I thought it was great.

And won't it haunt you?

Perhaps it won't haunt you because jocks don't tend to be haunted by anything.

But I'm telling you, it haunts me that you saw it with bad vision.

So I need you, and this is what I order: whatever you do for the rest of your life, I don't care.

But I need you to see Hamilton with glasses.

And Dan,

I need you

to order a whole bunch of glasses from the internet

for Jessica to try on.

Or Jessica, you need to go out and try on a whole bunch of glasses to find your Hamilton glasses.

And find the ones that are the most comfortable, that you love the most,

actively and openly, such that you would not

feel as little self-consciousness as possible for wearing in the semi-dark semi-dark of a single theater one time.

And then, Dan, I need you to

find the funds to get tickets to Hamilton again.

Oh, boy.

Yeah,

this is what you get.

Now, this is how you pay.

And you can go see it again as soon as possible.

And you have to wear them that one time, Jessica.

And then

while you're wearing them, and you know what?

You may need to help Dan buy the tickets because I don't think this guy's got any money.

And

maybe you can borrow some money from Jessica.

Go in and sit across from her table.

And while you're wearing them, I want you to think about this and think about whether or not it really wouldn't be so bad as to see plays and movies clearly on a regular basis.

And then after that, once you've given that fair shake to that thing,

however you decide to go forward

is your choice.

And I hope you guys stay together and have a great time.

And I hope you guys, well, we'll all have a great time on your anniversary when I meet you for drinks.

This is the sound of the gavel.

Judge Sean Hodgman rules, that is all.

Please rise as Judge Sean Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Jessica, how do you feel about the decision?

I feel great.

I do.

My life isn't changing.

Although, one time I wear glasses to see Hamilton, and I get to to see Hamilton again.

So that's great.

You get to see it again for the very first time, I would argue.

Because now you'll be able to see the difference and maybe you'll decide that difference is enough to continue making the difference.

Or maybe.

Sorry, Jesse, I had to jump in there.

Dan, how do you feel?

I feel good.

I'm glad she's going to have the chance to do that.

And I look forward to helping her pick out glasses.

And I can justify that at least this time

I can choose to see Lynn Monuel.

So it'll be a slightly, it'll be a different experience for me.

Dan, Jessica, thanks for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Thank you.

Thanks, guys.

Thank y'all.

Hi, I'm Alexis.

I'm one of the co-hosts of Comfort Creatures, and I'm here with River Jew, who has been a member since 2019.

Thank you so much for being a listener and a supporter of our show.

Yeah, I can't believe it's been that long.

Yeah, right?

As the Max Fund member of the month, can I ask what sort of made you decide to be a member?

I used to work in a library, so I just used to listen to podcasts while I reshelved all the books.

Really helped with, you know, doing being at work.

So I just wanted to give back to what's been helping me.

Yeah.

It feels good to be part of that.

As the member of the month, you will be getting a $25 gift card to the Maximum store, a member of the month bumper sticker, and you also, if you're ever in Los Angeles, you can get a parking spot at the Max Fun HQ just for you.

Yay!

I'm actually going to LA September, so I'll get to use the parking.

Yes!

Thank you so much, River, for doing this.

This has been an absolute blast.

Yeah, of course.

I've been so glad to be able to talk to you too, and I'm so excited to be a member of the month.

Yay!

Become a MaxFun member now at maximumfun.org slash join.

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I'm Oscar.

I'm Dimitri.

And we are the Euroevangelists.

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Okay, cool.

Another thrilling Judge John Hodgman verdict in the book, Judge Hodgman.

Yeah, well, I was not going to throw away my shot.

Can I say something?

Yeah,

you can.

I am still...

So I saw Hamilton this past Sunday

on the Sunday matinee with Javier Muñoz in the role of Hamilton.

And he was amazing.

Everyone was amazing.

But it so happened that Lynn-Manuel Miranda was in the neighborhood.

seeing another show,

Spring Awakening, which was a delightful coincidence because

while I was seeing the show that he wrote and created,

and not many people know, including him, that I secretly wrote and created Spring Awakening.

Did you know that, Jesse?

No, I had no idea.

It was a weird crisscross.

I wrote and created Spring Awakening secretly.

Purple Summer is actually a very coded reference to that summer in Ocean City, New Jersey, when I first heard When Doves Cry in the arcade on the boardwalk.

Got it?

Yeah.

But he was there with a mutual friend, and we contacted each other,

and he came by after his show was over, and his other show was over, after the show he was seeing was over, and

Hamilton was over, and he invited me backstage.

to chat.

And he could not have been...

You've met him before, or at least talked to him on the phone before.

I had had a few interactions with him online.

And, you know, if you're listening to this, Lynn, that was, I've said it to your face, but that was a really wonderful moment for me and my family.

We love the show so much.

And he could not have been a nicer guy or a bigger fan of Maximum Fun and Jesse Thorne.

It was a delight.

You know, I've never met him.

We've only, we've only interacted on the internet.

Yeah.

He's a very special guy.

And

so then I said, how much money are you going to give us for the Max Fun drive?

You hit him up.

That's good.

Oh, coffee's for closers, Judge Hodgson.

Right, exactly.

And

he said he was non-committal at the time, but I took his wallet out of his jacket.

Oh, thank God.

Did you get his MacArthur card?

That's what they give you when you win a MacArthur grant.

Really?

They just give you a charge card with a couple hundred thousand dollars on it every year.

I got it, and I got the security code and everything.

Oh, great.

And guess what it's got on it?

What?

A hologram.

Oh,

a hologram of a brain for genius.

But I'll tell you something.

You know, Jesse, if Jessica,

and it doesn't matter about Dan, but if Jessica ends up buying Dan tickets to see Hamilton again, Jessica, get a third and I'll come check it out with you.

In fact, get a third and a fourth and Jesse and I will both go with you guys.

Yeah.

To heck with my family.

I'm flying to New York.

Let's hear this.

Well, our show is produced by Julia Smith, edited by Mark McConville.

Thanks to Matt Gersting, who named this week's episode.

If you want to name a future episode, follow us on social media.

Like Judge John Hodgman on Facebook, and follow us on Twitter, at Jesse Thorne and at Hodgman.

We're also on Instagram.

What are you on Instagram?

On Instagram, I am at JohnHodgman.

That's my first and last name, J-O-H-N-H-O-D-G-M-A-N.

Someone already has Hodgman, and I I don't even know if they use it.

And my own Instagram, which I've been enjoying very much, is primarily concerned with menswear, since I'm also the blogger behind Put This On.

And it is put.this.on.

It's got a lot of W-I-W-T pics or what I wore today photos.

Is that what that means?

Yeah, I translated W-I-W-T, and then I translated pics.

That means photos.

Picks, right.

Yeah.

I think that's it.

If you've got a case for Judge John Hodgman, go to maximumfund.org slash JJ Ho and share it with us.

Big or small, we consider them all.

They're essential to our enterprise.

And yeah, just like Lynn Manuel Miranda is, look forward to that Max Fund Drive.

It's right around the corner.

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That doesn't keep all the lights on.

That keeps some of the lights on.

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