DISSECTING NARCISSISTS WITH MARGIE BOWDEN

Hi, everyone.

Happy Tuesday.

This is a very important episode of Canon Deluze because we make a lot of fun of stuff on this podcast.

But this is a subject that I think affects so many women all over the world.

I've been getting messages from you girls about it.

I found a specialist on the subject all the way down under in Australia.

So let me introduce my guest first of all.

Her name is Margie Bolden.

Hi, Margie.

Hello.

Thank you so much for being here with us.

I'm Cat on the Luz.

I really appreciate it.

You know, going to Australia is on top of my bucket list.

It must come.

I know.

I will make my way there one of these days.

And I actually had guests from Australia in the past, and I always ask all my

Australian guests, first and foremost, how are the men in Australia?

Is it true the rumor that they're better than Americans, or it's all baloney?

Well, that's a really great question because my partner is from Boston.

I was married to a guy from Boston for 14 years.

He's not going to like if you answer that, though.

So I'm not the best person to ask for somebody.

So you take the fifth on that one.

Okay.

So, Marge, Margie, right?

Am I pronouncing your name right?

Margie.

Margie.

Okay, Margie.

You are a narcissist coach and counselor.

You help women beat narcissistic abuse

and you help you guide people through the process of either dating a narcissist or being married to a narcissist, correct?

So can you start by explaining to us, if possible, in a nutshell,

what is a narcissist?

Because a lot of people out there don't, I didn't know, to be honest with you, up until like two weeks ago.

well look

the thing is that I never diagnose I don't work and say to people you know your partner's a narcissist I'm not qualified to diagnose anybody as a narcissist but I guess what I do work with are those toxic personality traits

that seem to come up again and again with the clients that I work with that are oh so very typical and that is really it stems from the narcissist is believes that that they are or they build this story about themselves that they're superior

that they're entitled

they have grandiose ideas about themselves they lack empathy and I guess you know sort of from that you know so many different behaviours in so many different situations arise.

I mean the DSM-5 which is the diagnostic and statistic manual that has nine specific traits that they outline there.

But, you know, it's those toxic traits that has a person, you know,

believing that they're godlike,

that they are, they control your life.

Okay, so now,

is it true?

That's one of the questions that a lot of women send.

In general, a narcissist doesn't know that he's a narcissist or doesn't think that he's a narcissist.

That's why they act the way they do.

They're like in total denial of their behavior?

Well, absolutely.

A narcissist has, I guess, a narrative that they build around themselves from a young age that's based on shame and a lack of ego in many cases.

And this little narrative that they tell themselves,

and that lack of empathy enables them to go through life believing that they're never wrong, that they do no wrong and that they're entitled to treat others

in a way that's just toxic.

Do they know they're a narcissist?

I don't think that

they would say that they're ever a narcissist.

Do they know that their behavior is wrong?

100%.

And that's why, you know, for so many people, the treatment that they have in their homes behind closed doors is completely different to the treatment that other people see, the narcissist.

So a narcissist can be inside and be abusive, can be manipulative,

can gaslight you and walk out the front door and say to the neighbour, hi, do you want me to help you?

Mow that front block, like they change their behaviour.

Right.

So they're aware that this behaviour is okay for this person.

But when we're with these people, this is the behavior that I'm going to use.

I see.

So, but in general, it's a behavior that mostly men present.

So, we are going to focus on women that deal with narcissists just for

the podcast.

A lot of guys get very defensive about it.

Like, if you say, Hey, maybe you're a narcissist or I'm dating a narcissist,

they so this is what I'm saying, guys, because I have a big male audience.

Before you get defensive, this is not an attack on men, but maybe listen to what we're going to say.

I'm going to ask you a lot of questions that girls send.

Is this the behavior of a narcissist?

Does this qualify as a narcissist?

Before you guys say, fuck it, it's not true.

I'm not a narcissist.

Maybe what I suggest is that you guys listen to an open mind because maybe you are a narcissist.

Maybe you are acting like a narcissist and there is treatment for it and you can get therapy, correct?

Look,

there's a lot in that.

So the first thing is that you said that, you know, guys reacting badly to being told they're a narcissist.

You know, anyone who's a narcissist is going to react badly to being told that anything they do is not wonderful.

So, telling someone that they're a narcissist is probably number one no-no,

because that goes against everything.

Remember, I said the narrative, the story that they tell themselves?

Yeah.

You know,

they are entitled to act like this.

you know that they're special

so so telling someone you know who who thinks that they're they're so superior and entitled that what you did was not so good they'll often you'll get narcissistic rage they do not take any sort of feedback or criticism and then you said you know there is therapy

well there is therapy absolutely but When we go to therapy, we go

with the knowledge that I would like to change something.

Now, if the narcissist doesn't believe that they need to change anything, why would they go to the other side?

So,

it's a tough one.

So, in your opinion, can you fix a narcissist?

Can their behavior quote unquote be fixed or

forget it?

So, it's a personality disorder.

It can't be fixed.

What a narcissist would have to do would go to very, very regular therapy, weeks, months, years,

to modify their behaviours to modify okay

so can you change them well no

can they modify can they modify if there's the motivation and the willingness I don't know what minuscule percent that would be but if they ever thought you know I would like to go and change this then they could undergo therapy and work on that.

But remember, at the beginning of therapy, you have to say, I think there's a problem here that I need to go to therapy and talk about.

And I think that's not something the narcissist is going to do.

Yeah, so that's the toughest part, I think, is true.

Admitting that you are a narcissist.

Yeah, that's tough.

So I have a list.

Some are questions that I have and some are questions that other girls send.

Maybe you can help us identify, because like I said, many times women are in a relationship, like you start dating someone, right?

And you don't even know that you're starting to date a narcissist until you're way

tangled up with that person.

Sometimes it takes a long time, especially if you're not a specialist, which is like my case.

On the contrary, I was married for 14 years.

My husband was an alcoholic.

It was a different kind of abuse.

He was verbally abusive, sometimes physically,

because of the alcohol, but he wasn't a narcissist.

So after I got divorced and he died, la la la, and I've been in this dating game for two and a half years.

I don't really know anything about dating.

I'm learning as I go.

So I would not really be sure if I was dating someone, if they are presenting narcissist behavior or not.

And a lot of girls that send me the message, especially when I said I was going to talk to you, they're like, oh my god, Kat, you know, let's figure it out.

How do we know?

So this is the first question: is there like a trait like a red flag or something that you could tell women like pay attention for these signs like when you're meeting someone and you're starting to date them?

Well a narcissist

you get trapped in an abuse cycle and the narcissist has a very specific three-step abuse cycle and the first one is love bombing.

So when you meet a narcissist you will be absolutely besotted, enamoured.

It will feel intoxicating because the narcissist does a number of things.

So, in the love-bombing stage, the narcissist will tell you,

and if I've heard this once, I've heard it a million times:

you're my soulmate.

I've never met anyone like you.

You are the woman of my dreams.

It's really fast, you know.

They might tell you that they want to marry you

on the second date.

That would scare me.

Yeah,

but

Later on, they retract that.

Guy never said that.

So

it's really,

and they pick their targets very carefully.

Narcissists don't just choose anyone.

Narcissists typically love someone

that has got all the qualities and all the characteristics that they don't possess themselves.

So they find that that strong, compassionate, empathic, tolerant, forgiving, conscientious person

very attractive because they're going to need all of those qualities to stay in that person's sphere and to keep that person as their supply.

So a narcissist, it's thick and fast and there's lots of red flags.

Narcissists do not ever respect you.

So you see those red flags and you're so intoxicated with this incredible person who you think you've found Prince Charming, the love of your life, but you know, the devaluation then starts very quickly.

And if I could think of one thing, it's they just don't respect you.

They don't respect your time, they don't respect your boundaries, they don't respect anything about you.

It's very interesting that you said that because, okay, so now my podcast is very real, it's very raw, that's how I talk to my audience.

So let's delve a little bit in these behaviors because I think,

and tell me if I'm wrong, because I'm learning as I go.

Definitely one of the characteristics, like you said, you meet someone and the first step they put you on a pedestal.

Like, oh my god, you're so gorgeous.

Oh, holy

guys, she lost sound.

We'll be right back.

She'll be right back.

We'll be right back.

Okay, we're back.

She's all the way in Australia.

So, we had like a one-second technical difficulty.

But anyway, I was saying, so I think the narcissist, when you meet them, like you said, they're intoxicating because they put you on a pedestal.

Oh my God, you're so gorgeous and you're so fabulous.

But

girls, if you pay attention, they use the word I a lot.

I want to do this.

I want to do that.

I want to do.

Is that true?

Is that like a sign of a narcissist?

Well, without him knowing, I mean, the narcissist has one person

that they're interested in and that's themselves so every single thing that that you do in the relationship is about them what can they get out of it so it you know it doesn't matter what it is you will notice that

your needs are never considered

it it's they're entitled to have their needs met and that's the way they operate

Yeah, and funny enough, okay, so this is my question to you.

I met someone someone on a dating app many months ago back in the beginning of June.

For those of you that listen to my podcast, a little bit of the story has been there the past few episodes.

And I don't know if he's a narcissist or not, because, like I said, I'm not a doctor, I'm not an expert or anything.

But it was kind of the same situation that we're describing.

When I met him, he was all over me.

Like, everything is fabulous.

Everything is fantastic.

You know, when you check all the boxes, sex is amazing.

And he took charge, he was planning date after date after date after date

and looked me in the eyes.

And we are in a relationship and we are monogamous.

And he was so taking charge of my life and our schedule, and like basically making his way into my life that I was thinking, wow, okay, that's the guy.

I waited two and a half years to say, okay, I'm in a relationship with someone.

So, in my mind, you know, everything was going so incredibly well that I thought, okay, wow, that's it.

We were dating almost for four months.

And then slowly, like you said, because I've never been around the narcissist before, and you're going to help us figure out if this was his case or not, I didn't notice.

But this is

the catch.

Three and a half months into it.

All of a sudden, very suddenly, his behavior changed.

He became a little cold, a little distant, changed the way he treated me.

And I was thinking it was stress

from all the issues that he was dealing with with his family, with his kids.

And all of a sudden, on Sunday,

he's in my bed, right?

Spending the weekend with me.

So let's be very blunt because this is also about sex.

Of course, we had sex, great sex.

So Sunday,

from Sunday to Tuesday afternoon,

Tuesday afternoon, he gives me like a three-minute phone call,

a completely different man, like, you know what?

Never mind.

Never mind.

I don't want to do this anymore.

Forget all about it.

Like that.

The detachment,

like the change, the abrupt change in behavior from being this prince charming, you know, this man that is the sweetest thing in the world that all my friends said, to like, you know, that's all you deserve is like a three-minute phone call.

Goodbye.

I'm moving on with my life.

That really shocked me.

And that's why i spend a month trying to learn this behavior do you think this is consistent with someone who is a narcissist

100 so what happens is that the love bombing stage you're going to get as i said the most you're going this is the stage where they hook you in

so narcissists don't like typically to ever let any supply go whether or not you're saved for 10 years down the track or two years down the track or 20 years down the track but they they're always looking for supply and and the first phase is the love-bombing stage where they book you in and you're so

you believe what the because as you say i've never met a narcissist before so you've met this wonderful man who the sex the compliments that you think wow you're told that you are it

You're his goddess, his princess, his world.

But then starts the devaluation stage.

Exactly.

It starts pretty quickly.

There'll be something that you think, oh my God, like whether it's infidelity, whether it's a lie, whether it's I'm going to pick you up tonight and I just don't appear,

then it changes.

So do you think, okay, like in my case, like I said, I was a complete,

honestly oblivious to it.

I never dealt with an adult changing behavior this fast.

So I believed everything.

He would look me in the eyes and say to me, We are in a relationship.

I'm happy with you.

You're my girl.

We were doing all these crazy, fun things together, making plans for the future.

I believed.

I'm like, okay, I'm in this great relationship with a very stable,

secure, mature man.

Now,

for other girls out there that send the same message, but I'm dating this guy.

I'm in this great relationship.

How do I know that he's not going to snap and turn on me and dump me like really fast food?

Because if you're having great sex with someone on a Sunday and you can be that detached, you can show that lack of attachment to the person on a Tuesday that you think, oh, all this woman deserves is like a three-minute phone call.

Fuck you.

I'm moving on with my life.

To me, that shows like complete lack of detachment and emotion.

Other girls out there that are in this process, how do they know that this is not going to happen to them?

Okay, so as you said, the narcissist

is fast.

You know,

you will be overwhelmed with how, oh my God, the sex, the performance, like this is just crazy because it is a performance.

Like sex,

you know,

if you actually ever are in a long-term relationship with a narcissist, you will learn that intimacy and sex is something that a narcissist actually doesn't like.

They don't like hissing they don't like connecting with people so ultimately the sex will disappear but initially there are little tiny red flags remember i said about respect yeah if you think back to when you first met mr wonderful

it may have been something something like

time

yeah

i'll be at your house at nine and they're not Time is something that is a really good indicator of

respect you it's about me it's so funny that you said that because now looking back in the very beginning of relationship yes it did happen a few times that he made me wait forever and ever and ever

and I actually brought it up very politely like you know by the way if you would have told me you're gonna show up at 940 I would have done other things you know and

but I never would have thought that but like you said when you're tangled up with a person like that, that's all about them.

It takes a long time to notice.

So, girls, please pay attention to what we're saying, pay attention to the tiny little signs.

The time is like you know, it'll be the first date, yeah.

First date, and they'll be half an hour late.

And you, if you bring it up,

what are you talking about?

You'll be ghastly.

Yeah, another one that I at the time when it happened to me, I didn't notice.

And again, if I'm wrong, if you don't think this qualifies as a narcissist, please, by all means, disagree, okay?

Because, like I said, and my audience knows I am not an expert.

We are just trying to learn and shed light

in these situations.

So, and a lot of girls have the same issue as I did.

You meet a person on a dating app.

Dating apps became like fast food of dating.

Yes, no, yes, no.

People are being treated like fast food.

people are being discarded like fast food.

That's an issue.

So, I met this guy on a dating app months and months and months into it.

We are in a relationship, we are really tangled up in each other's lives.

And he's looking at me and saying, We are in a monogamous relationship.

Fine, months into it, I found out he was still on the dating app on the bumble app.

He looked at me and said, I want to be with you, only with you.

I like you, I am happy with you.

The reason why I'm still on the dating app, girls, pay attention, please.

This is really important.

He said, it's to feed my ego.

It makes my ego feel good.

I was married for a long time.

Now I want to feed my ego.

Now, looking back, the day he said that to me, I should have said, wow.

He's telling me that this is all about him.

And I ignored it because all I could hear was, I like you.

I like you.

When somebody talks about their ego is this a sure sign of narcissism or not well I like that you've brought the dating apps up because you know narcissists love you know dating apps because you know it's a good it's a good way to get the excitement of fast sex and you will get narcissists who who go through

and you know they're on they're on bumble they're on hinge whatever all the time

and one of the things that narcissists one of the things this isn't just a blanket statement but one of the things about narcissists is that they do love their bodies and their image

so

so they're not all of them but but dating apps um if i think of a narcissist that i met on a dating app there was you know muscles gym look how hot i am i'm perfect i'm wonderful

um

so they love themselves yes that's it's that was going to be the next point that a lot of girls send yes major red flag if you're dating a guy and his Instagram his Facebook is filled with pictures of his body look at me I'm working out I look so hot beware it's great to look hot right

I love taking care of myself I am proud of how I look for my age but I don't put pictures of myself at the gym every day.

Yeah, but on your dating apps, beware because they will have those pictures of themselves at the gym.

And look at my body and look at me.

This is how fit I am.

I work out.

Yeah.

So when a guy tells you that you're dating him for many, many months and he's telling you that he likes you, but he's looking at the dating apps.

And of course, my heart sank because when this day happened, I was at his house, I was spending the day there, I was taking a nap on the couch, which is something that I think narcissists do as well.

They make you feel very comfortable, right?

They make you feel safe, quote unquote.

And that's how I was feeling: like, oh, I'm in my safe zone with my man, this man that really adores me and takes care of me.

And I wake up from the nap, and all of a sudden, he started talking about Bumble

and told me me bluntly that he was still on bumble because it was good for his his ego to know that other women were interested in dating him so there you've got a complete lack of empathy narcissists have no empathy so you know you wouldn't you wouldn't stay on bumble if you told someone that you know I'm in a monogamous relationship and I actually have feelings for you you don't stay on a dating app because you think, oh, that would be really hurtful.

They'd be really hurt by that.

You know, I'm not showing my commitment.

A narcissist doesn't give a staff

because that shows lack of respect, right?

Well, look, respect is the big one that you'll never get from a narcissist.

And, you know, empathy.

They don't care what you think.

They don't care.

What you stood in the cold for half an hour and waited for me.

I don't care.

I haven't got any empathy.

I don't think about how you're going to feel.

I'm on a dating app and you're upset.

I don't care.

Yeah, it's about me exactly.

So, I hope, and I keep saying girls because this happens to women a lot.

I have friends in this situation.

I've like I said, I've just been through this.

I finally thought, like, Jesus, I waited two and a half years to agree to let a man say to me, We are in a relationship.

I was so picky, you know, I thought I was so protected.

So, when I started dating this man and he seemed like the perfect guy for me and made made me feel so safe.

I ignored all these signs.

So, this is why this conversation is so important.

If you are in this situation, pay attention to these red flags that we're talking about.

Like you said, if somebody likes you and they respect you, of course, they're gonna get out of the dating app for you, right?

You don't need your ego fed by other women saying, Hi, I want to go out with you.

I got out of the dating app for this guy, obviously, because I like to be respectful to everybody that I'm in a relationship with.

Yeah, yeah.

100%.

But, you know, the narcissist only cares about one person and that's themselves.

Yeah.

So, oh my God, the girl sent like a million.

This was the number one.

Now,

you were talking about the gym.

That's another surefire thing.

And I know the guys are going to send me 10 million messages tomorrow morning.

Ah, but I just want to show the girls that I look good.

I'm trying to find the right partner uh is every

man or or woman as well every man or woman that puts a lot of pictures about their body about how they look look at me look at me does this always present a sign that they're narcissists or is there another excuse for doing that look i think we i think we live in a day and a day and age where you know look that that's what you do you know you take pictures of yourself you know selfies and all of that i i think it's very different you know you can be a person that that has a healthy healthy regard for yourself and put pictures on the Instagram and, you know, love yourself sick,

but you have empathy.

You don't have grandiose ideas about yourself.

You don't think you're superior.

Yeah.

You know, you don't.

Yeah, sorry.

No, go ahead.

I don't want to interrupt you.

No, I was just going to say you don't use other people.

Yeah.

You know,

I got to take a two-minute break, but there are so many questions, so many questions.

And the next one is really important because a lot of girls send me this question, including some girls from Australia when I said that I was going to interview.

Is there a way, like I said, to protect yourself

from being tangled up?

Because they're so smooth and

easy.

It's hard to not be tangled up.

And a lot of girls think, oh, he's going to change for me.

He's going to change for me.

He's going to change for me.

When we come back,

you're going to let us know, is there a way to protect yourself, protect your heart, and find out faster?

You know, forget it, this guy is all about himself, or

there is no way.

We'll be right back.

This love to answer that one.

This is a crazy, interesting conversation with Margie Bolden.

Margie, Margie.

I keep saying Margie.

I'm so sorry, Margie Bolden, all the way from Australia.

Cat on the Luz will be right back.

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Okay, we're back.

This could be like a four-hour episode, so I'm trying to cram in as many questions as I possibly can because I really got dozens of questions here.

So here we go.

Go for it.

Answer: Is there any way we can like protect ourselves or prevent or notice?

You know, don't get that tangled up with the narcissist, protect your heart.

Look, I love the question because it's actually something that I, a process that I work through with many clients who have been in relationships with narcissists.

And once you've been in a relationship with a narcissist, there's a good chance that you're going to walk into another relationship with a narcissist.

Oh, yeah, yeah, don't say that.

So, this is a process that I do with clients.

And, you know, some people have said, you know, why don't they teach us this at school?

So, if I speak to people about, you know, why did you choose your partner?

It's pretty frightening that I get time and time and time again, me included, I would have answered this question, you know, as an 18-year-old, as a 20-year-old, as a 25-year-old, you know, why did you choose that partner?

And the top responses are: he was really hot,

He has a good job.

So

how do you combat walking into an abusive relationship?

So this is something that I actually did myself and I've used it with clients.

And that is you start to construct a list.

This is something that no one tells us to do as women, but you start to construct the list of what do I want and what do I deserve out of a relationship?

And you put every single thing that you want because you deserve to have a partner, you're going to spend and give yourself that partner.

You deserve to have all the boxes ticked, not just three, but every box.

So every woman's different.

But at the top of your list has to be things like respect.

Yeah.

Communication.

You will never have open, meaningful communication with a narcissist never

so if you want to have an open

wonderful communication about everything with a narcissist with with someone then you're never going to have it with a narcissist

so you know you've got to write down all those things that that you expect

and and you should have a list of you know 20 plus yeah

Now,

if you have that list and you start dating,

it's not hard.

I mean, you know, honestly, you just have to talk to someone over the dating app to realize,

you know,

fail, fail, fail, fail.

You don't tick all the boxes, therefore, I don't want you.

Like, you deserve the very best.

So you construct a list of what do I want.

Now, women don't do this.

Well, I have to say, because I had such a horrible experience before my other relationship that I had two and a half years ago I am very very very picky and I that's why this story is mind-boggling to me and my friends that met him and the people that know me my inner circle because I have this list you know and this like I want a mature man I want a firm man with a strong personality la la la la la la la la la la and interesting enough This is the main reason why I kept going on date after date after date with this guy because he would literally look me in the eyes.

What I always wanted to hear from a man: I am ready for a relationship.

I am

monogamous.

I want to be with you.

I love the intimacy.

We like the same things.

We have the same energy, the same schedule, the same goals, the same life.

So, everything I would do, we would literally look at each other and be like, Wow, you know, we wake up at the same time.

We like to do this, we like to do that.

La la la la la la la.

So, it was checking all my boxes.

And every time I would would think, oh, this is too good to be true.

This is too good to be true.

Now I think it's also a red flag.

He would literally look me in the eyes and say, No, we deserve it.

You know, it's we deserve to be happy.

This is great.

This is amazing.

We're gonna do this.

So that's the mind-boggling part.

And when we would look at each other, we would be, oh, we're communicating about everything.

It's so nice that we are such great communicators.

Now, this is why I'm telling you the story.

you may think that you're communicating about everything but all the months that I was with him three and a half I think almost four three and a half four months that I was with him I was giving time of my schedule opening up my schedule saying yes yes yes when he said I want to come over I want to go to dinner I want to cook I want to do this remember girls I I I was saying sure sounds great sounds great because I was thinking oh he's the man I love when the man is in charge.

He, in his mind, instead of communicating with me, he was misconstruing

everything, thinking, oh my God, this woman is falling in love with me.

I'm her life.

This is too much right now.

I want to see what else is out there.

He was creating our own reality in his head instead of talking to me.

So what a narcissist does when they do first meet you, and I will say that going back to respect, being at the top of the list, and really simple little things like being on time, like respecting everything, and you saying, you know,

that's disrespectful, or really getting it straight in your head, what does respect look like and respecting your boundaries?

And you know, someone who just says, I want to come over, regardless of whether or not you really do want them to come over, is not respecting your boundaries.

So narcissists stop all over your boundaries and they don't respect you.

But the other thing I was going to say about, I've lost my train of thought, you said something about,

oh, they mirror you.

So when a narcissist meets you, you will notice that you don't actually get a whole lot of information about them and their lives.

If you do, it's bullshit anyway.

But they want to know everything about you.

When was your last relationship?

You know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

And you,

as we do, you open up and you tell them.

And you're forward coming about what it is that I need, you know, my past relationship and it didn't work for this reason, so I would be looking for this.

And you share all your vulnerabilities with them.

So the narcissist has amazing cognitive empathy.

They are very good at studying you and knowing exactly what this person wants.

And they give it back to you.

So, you know, if you say, I am,

I just love cats.

Oh my God, I love cats.

They love cats too.

Oh my god, I love spending time in the garden.

Guess what?

Suddenly, so you start to think this is incredible that they just like doing all the same things.

They don't.

They're mirroring you.

No.

So they study and copy.

Okay, so this is a question that some girls send.

So what do they want?

Like, why would a narcissist, if they know they're gonna detach from you, if they know they're gonna dump you, if they know they're just a player, if they know it's not true that they want a relationship, whatever it is, why do they even bother

going through

all this trouble?

Is there a reason or they don't notice their behavior?

They don't notice what they're doing to the woman they're with.

Narcissists are empty, like if you can think of them as, you know, their personalities are not fully developed and formed.

They're quite empty.

And so they need to connect to other people.

They need supply to validate them.

And so they hunt for supply so that they can get attention,

whatever they need.

So every narcissist

is a little bit different.

You know, they might need sex, constant sex, not intimacy, but sex.

So they might be on the hunt for sex.

One narcissist might want somewhere to live another narcissist, you know, might want someone to

game with, like, they're all different.

But they hunt for supply.

They don't connect.

It's not long-lasting connection because they get bored and then they look for new supply.

It's how can I fill the void inside me?

And they do that from an external validation.

Me, me, me, other people can get it from internal validation.

Yeah.

They get it from external.

Now,

same thing.

A lot of women talk about the guy when it comes to detaching from you.

It happened to me.

It was very shocking the way it happened because I had one man.

I was dating one man, very sweet, very loving, very sensitive, a planner, all of these things, very stable.

And like some guy, very angry, aggressive,

like completely detached from me, called me and said, never mind, forget everything, goodbye.

Gave me like a three-minute phone call.

That's what I deserved.

I was shocked by the lack of emotions by the lack of empathy by the lack of feelings and like we said on the first half to be blunt like seriously you come inside me and 48 hours later like like I said the fast food trash that is happening to a lot of girls and then so many girls send me the message oh my god this happened to me too I was dating this guy for one girl said I was dating this guy for like a year and one night I thought we were gonna go to the movies and and he told me, Never mind, they didn't want to see me anymore.

So, it happens to a lot of girls, and they say, How can he not feel anything?

He's not gonna call me and apologize.

Doesn't he feel bad that he's doing this to me?

Does he have any feelings for me?

I guess the answer is no, right?

They don't care.

Look, in fact, you know, not that the research is extensive with narcissism.

There's so much work that still needs to be done, but look, you know, I have read some research that suggests suggests that even the part of the brain

where empathy comes from is underdeveloped.

That's why relationships with narcissists fail.

They don't have the capacity to be vulnerable, to be empathic, all those things that we need to connect and have deep relationships with other people.

That's part of the disorder.

So girls, I like honestly, I was on the same boat for many, many days.

It wasn't sinking in my head.

And I kept saying, of course he's going to reach out.

Of course, he's going to apologize.

Of course, he's going to say, oh, my God, I don't know.

But at least don't expect it.

If somebody doesn't care about you to this point that they think you deserve a quick phone call or they dump you in front of your house,

I know it's very painful, but you need to move on, right?

Completely.

But the difficulty is with the narcissist, they do something that actually is quite addictive for us, and that is intermittent reinforcement.

So the narcissist actually gives us

90% bad or 80% bad and 10% good.

And we're in this cycle,

we normalise this cycle where the good,

we just wait for the good.

We'll do anything for that bit of good.

But then, you know, the rest of the 80% of the time, if you're with a narcissist long term, and the thing that makes someone trauma-bonded to a narcissist is that I'm just waiting for my next hit.

It's like cocaine or you know, heroin or gambling.

Yeah, that's I think.

Yeah, why did you go back?

You just blew five grand at the casino.

You're crazy.

And they go, but last year,

I won.

I know.

Now, looking back, I really think

they get tired of someone like it's a toy or a game or something.

Like, no, never mind, never mind.

there's so many people out there I'm gonna go on to the next and then and the minute they snap in their head they're gonna be detached from any feeling whatever was going on with you whatever plans they thought they might have with you they're just already on to the next and because honestly I'm really I don't even know how human beings can be like that because to me

and I know a lot of women are like that when you have sex with someone it's very intimate they're really in in your life so if i decided i didn't want to be with someone anymore, I would certainly give them more than you know, three minutes.

But, like you said, it's just the behavior.

Well, people are interchangeable, yeah.

People are disposable and interchangeable, exactly.

And remember, narcissists don't like intimacy, yeah,

because that means you're really getting to know me and my vulnerabilities, and that's the one thing I will spend my life covering up with my vulnerabilities.

Wow,

so

oh my god, we're running out of time, I cannot believe it.

But let's move on a little bit.

A lot of heartbroken people out there.

A lot of people that

to me, it was a different heartbreak because I wasn't in love with him.

I wasn't like developing strong feelings for him like he said because it was a short time.

I had a bond,

of course.

I believed.

I have a strong man by my side and we have a great partnership, a great friendship, great sex.

And we're seeing where this is going to go together.

So I was crazy disappointed in him and in myself for not noticing all of these things, for making the wrong choice.

I was very shocked and sad.

But a lot of women out there are heartbroken.

A lot of women out there get dumped after a longer relationship with narcissists.

A lot of women get treated like that, like fast food trash.

How do you heal?

That's the number one question.

How do I heal my broken heart?

I tell you really, really quickly,

far from being an expert, I'm a human being.

I cry a lot, I drink the wine that I have to drink for whatever few days.

I cannot

myself.

Like, I work out more, I get dressed even better, like I'll do my hair, I'll put red lipstick.

I keep looking at myself in the mirror over and over again and telling me how hot I am.

And in my case, as much as I'm not ready to jump right back into the dating scene, I need a moment because I'm not not a serial dater.

I love knowing that there's so many men out there that want to date me.

Like, I started my dating apps all over again just to see the attention and friends trying to set me up, and matchmakers, and guys all over the street on my Instagram.

For me, I'm just saying for girls out there that ask me this question, it really helps me build up my ego and my self-see.

Wow, you know, I look so freaking great.

And there's like a line of guys.

Like, if I want to go on a date now, tonight, tomorrow, great.

At least I know there's a bunch of men there

that want to be with me.

Do you have any suggestions for healing from this trauma?

Look, I think

it really depends on

how long you've been in the relationship with the narcissist.

The shorter period of time, obviously, healing is more possible because you haven't been impacted and

psychologically as damaged.

yeah but for those women who have been in relationships for 10 years 20 years 30 years 40 years you know longer their healing process obviously is is a lot longer and I love what you said about you know the first part is trying to recover self and self-love

and realizing you know like I was actually chosen by that narcissist and they kept me around not because I'm imperfect because I'm pretty damn perfect and honestly that is one thing that I noticed with my clients like I don't there's no trash in people narcissists don't pick junk

like you know there's one beautiful woman after another that I meet and and they've been done over by the narcissist So, you know, depending on how long, definitely therapy.

I mean, there's obviously often a self-belief that we have about ourselves.

You know, why did I let that go on?

Because what happens

over a period of time we normalize it and sometimes we've got beliefs that, you know, well, I'm the person, you know, I was told when I was five that I have to keep everybody happy.

So I guess, you know, I might be 45 now, but I still have to keep everybody happy.

And so healing is often quite cathartic.

It's realizing I've got a new chapter.

I don't want to be this person anymore.

What are those beliefs that are keeping me stuck?

Yeah, it's very interesting that you say that because definitely, I think, especially most of us women, when something goes wrong, even when a guy dumps us or breaks our heart or whatever they do to us, we have a tendency of blaming ourselves.

I do that a lot.

Like when this happened to me, I was so like caught off guard.

And I remember he said to me, Oh, your

gut feeling was right.

I changed.

And I said, My gut feeling was telling me that you were stressed out with your family and everything, but I had a solid man by myself.

So, no, my gut feeling never failed me so badly.

So, I spend a whole month, it's one month to this day to today,

questioning myself,

my judgment.

What did I do wrong?

Why did I misread this relationship so much?

Why did I open up my life so much?

Why did I open up my schedule so much?

How do you switch that in your head to understand that you didn't really do anything wrong?

Well, for me, it's understanding narcissism.

The biggest thing for me was understanding exactly what am I dealing with.

And for people who are in really bad situations with narcissists, I think the first step is to understand,

you know, who am I dealing with?

What are their motivations?

Why do they act like this?

It's not me.

It's never about.

It's tough, right?

But it's really tough.

I get so many messages from girls every day and it's heartbreaking because they say oh he left me what did I do wrong it's my fault if I were thinner like seriously like if I were this

that's exactly like I get clients and and often the first thing they say is I think I might be the narcissist I think I didn't act very nicely I think if I'd only you know done better

and we take on the blame ourselves

how do you tell somebody to start only through therapy is there any trick if somebody out there is listening other than my I know my tricks work for me I know it's it's easier said than done

but I think if you know realizing that there's you know there's a whole big world as you said there's a whole new life there's a really big chapter out there after abuse yeah and for you to start dreaming and saying you know i can have whatever i want what do I want?

Yeah.

You know, make lists, do dream boards, get out there and start living life.

Yeah.

And

spend, you know, be alone.

Yeah.

Be okay being alone.

Absolutely.

You got to love yourself first.

You got to love your life.

You got to keep busy.

Keep busy.

Keep busy.

I keep so crazy busy.

By the time I go to bed, I don't have time to feel that bad anymore.

And to stop thinking of the narcissist because when you think of the narcissist, you get more of the narcissist.

Exactly.

Don't blame yourself.

Now, last but not least,

you go through a breakup or they break your heart or they disappoint you.

What is your suggestion?

Jump right back on the horse, meaning go date other people.

Because a lot of therapists say, go back to the dating game.

It's going to do you good.

It's going to make you feel better.

Have sex with other people.

Or you think, take a break, take a moment, it's too much.

I think that really is an individual, really very individual thing.

Yeah.

I think either way, either way, I mean,

you know, for women who have been in long-term relationships with a narcissist, they won't have had sex for a long time.

They would not have sex for a long time.

No way, no way.

Narcissists, you don't have a developing, wonderful, intimate, and beautiful sex like with a narcissist.

Most people say, Yes, I've been in a relationship with a narcissist for 20 years, haven't had sex for 16 years, haven't had sex for 10 years.

Wow, really?

Oh, I cannot imagine that.

It's real.

Yeah, you will have so many, that's another whole,

so many issues with sex and the narcissist because they don't like it.

They like porn, they love fast sex, they like sex if they don't have to connect with someone.

But intimacy, they hate.

yeah, I see.

Oh my god, this was so amazing.

Now, if anybody's listening to us and they want to reach out, because I agree, if you can do therapy,

do therapy.

I agree, you said something very important.

Anybody, it's and it's very difficult.

And I am a victim, I was a victim of abuse for 14 years.

I agree, it's very difficult to break the cycle.

It took me every bone in my body, all the courage in the world to get out of that marriage.

And I did it, and I survived.

And I am here, and I am a much stronger woman now.

And I know what I want, and I know what I deserve.

But if you girls can get therapy, it's a great idea, right?

Well, it was my lifesaver when I

don't, I never did it, like honestly, because I don't have the means to pay nowadays.

But I would if I could.

But the people that can afford it,

it's such help, such important emotional support, right?

Yeah, you need support, or do you need support?

Yeah, my supports are called my dogs.

They sleep with you.

Get a dog.

Get a dog.

Get a dog.

And a lot of men that I did not date, they're like, Oh, my dog, your dogs sleep with you.

And I'm like, Yes, because they're better than most men.

They're loyal, they're sweet, they're cuddly, they're not gonna hurt me.

It's a tough, it has to be a hell of a guy to replace my dogs.

Yeah, right.

How do people find you if they want to reach out and get help?

Probably the easiest way is on Instagram, narcissist underscore neb n-a-b narcissist underscore underscore neb

i am going to put the videos of her because she's gorgeous adorable crazy intelligent all over my social media for you guys to check it out she you put videos on your social media every single day right because i listen to them every single day And I love the way you talk because you're very soothing and you're very calm.

I love that.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Really, it's amazing.

I'm just about to release my first course because so many people have said, give us more.

Can you give us more?

Yeah.

And we are very grateful.

I'm insanely grateful.

Thank you so much.

I will definitely make my way to Australia and heat you up so we can have coffee.

But this was so important, guys.

Check out her Instagram.

Reach out, send her a message.

Even if you can't, look at the videos every single day because it will give you a little bit of strength, clarity.

Like I said, I'm not trying to diagnose anybody, any man out there.

Don't kill me, don't shoot me.

I'm not saying you are or you're not.

Talk about person.

Even the guy dated.

I'm not saying he is or he isn't.

I'm just saying that some of the behavior,

at least for me, for closure, for whatever, maybe it explains the change.

But we are saying if you think you're presenting this behavior, look at yourself in the mirror, watch her videos as well, guys, you know, and think about it, right?

Yeah,

thank you so much.

This was a huge pleasure.

I really appreciate it.

This was an amazing pleasure.

I'm sure

I'm going to get so many messages, so I hope I'll bring you back on a later date so we can talk some more.

I'd love to.

What time is it in Australia, by the way?

This is 8 p.m.

It is 2 p.m.

2 p.m.

Wow.

This is 8 p.m.

on a Tuesday, and she is 2 p.m.

Which city in Australia?

Wednesday.

It's Wednesday.

Wednesday.

Which city are you at?

Melbourne.

Melbourne.

Oh, my God.

Yeah.

Major bucket list.

If you have any

food, good coffee,

no.

By the way, if you meet any hot single guys out there and you want to set me up, go for it.

Okay.

I'll jump on a plane

and I'll be right there.

Thank you so much.

You're amazing.

This was Cat on the Wolves for your Tuesday, and we'll be back very soon.

Bye, guys.

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