JOSH SHEA - FORMER PORN ADDICT AND AUTHOR OF PORN AND THE PANDEMIC

Hi guys, today I'm extra, extra excited because I'm here with Joshua Shea.

I hope I'm pronouncing your name right, Josh.

Joshua Shea.

You are.

Great, yeah.

Josh is a recovering porn addict, and he's also the author of Porn and the Pandemic: How Three Months in 2020 Changed Everything.

It was released in July of this year.

He also authored a bunch of other books about the subject.

He's done tons of interviews about it.

He's setting up a website.

So I mean, if anything knows about porn addiction, I'm guessing it's Josh.

And I was just telling him he's here with us live through Zoom.

Hi, Josh.

Hello, Kias.

Thank you for having me.

Thank you so much.

Apparently, there are a lot of people out there who have questions about the subject, are embarrassed to ask.

And when I told everyone through my social media that I was going to interview you, like I was telling you I've been flooded with questions so I hope you're ready I'll answer what I can and make up what I can okay great so let's start from the beginning how do you figure out that you're a porn addict in other words how much porn is too much

Well,

like most addicts, you don't realize you are one until it's too late.

And as far as the question of how much is too much, that's for each individual to decide, but it isn't really the quantity when it comes to deciding what an addict is.

It's really why the person uses, how they use,

why they use.

In my case, when I was in my active addiction, which lasted over 20 years,

I probably looked at porn on average five days a week.

I probably didn't go much more than 30 minutes a night.

Now, there are guys who will look at porn every every day for hours who are not actual, who are not addicts.

What's the thing with addiction is it's in your mind, it's about your brain chemistry, it's about why you're using.

When it comes to porn addiction, Patrick Carnes, who's kind of the godfather of sex and porn addiction research,

he recognized that about 70% of porn addicts were sexually abused, about 80% were physically abused, and about 95%

were emotionally or mentally abused.

So what you find here is with porn addicts, you have a lot of unresolved trauma.

And that's largely true across the board with every addiction.

And addiction ultimately is really usually just a symptom of a larger problem.

When I finally faced my problem, what I had to do was go back and deal with the trauma created from, you know, the abuse that happened when I was a kid.

Once I was able to deal with that, it was much easier to stop the porn because I was using it for reasons that your average person, your recreational user, doesn't use.

Much like somebody who can have a couple beers, there are people who can't.

There are people who can gamble and people who can't

because of what's going on in their heads.

So, you know, it's impossible to say what too much porn is for anybody because for somebody like me, any porn is too much porn at this point.

But okay, so let's go step by step.

So I understand each case is a different case, but you think if somebody gets in this habit, oh, I have to watch porn every single day, maybe they're leaning towards an addiction because usually we don't think as porn being an addiction.

We think it just being a habit, right?

We don't think of porn as alcohol or drugs.

but do you think, let's say if I'm watching it every night, every night, every night, maybe I should stop and think if it's affecting my life?

You probably should think if it's affecting your life.

You should think about how important is it in your life.

Are you sacrificing anything in your life so you can watch the porn?

Are you picking porn over other activities that perhaps you used to pick?

And do you find that you're looking at porn during negative times?

Is it when you're stressed?

Is it when you have anxiety?

It's really, like I said, about why and how you are choosing to use the porn.

Ultimately, you know, a habit becomes a bad habit, becomes an obsession, becomes an addiction.

And when you look at the brain chemistry, what's going on in the brain of a porn addict is exactly what goes on in the head of a drug addict or an alcoholic or any other addict.

The brain chemistry is the same for addicts.

It is a brain disease.

Oh, I see.

So my next question is about, it's a question I have, but a lot of my girlfriends have the same.

I, as a woman, you know, there's a big stigma

because we think that porn is something for men, that men watch porn.

But a lot of women like porn.

I'm single now, and when I'm single, I like to watch porn at night because I want to pretty much use my vibrator.

Let's be honest about it.

And a lot of guys, if you tell them that, they think like you're some sexual deviant or a pervert or something crazy.

So what would you say like for men that say that?

Do you think it's okay for girls to use porn or what do you think about it?

I absolutely believe that you can't use porn without becoming addicted.

I think that anybody who judges another person based on something like that is probably trying to hide the fact that they have a problem.

And

I think that the more important thing is, are you sexually healthy or unhealthy?

And for some people, porn can be very unhealthy.

And for some people, it can be healthy.

It can be part of your routine.

Now, there are a lot of people who will argue about the moral aspects of porn or the ethical aspects of porn.

And I don't generally make that my argument because what I think we need is education around the use of porn.

I agree.

The idea that it can be dangerous for you if you're not watching out for what you're doing.

For these kinds of people who are judging other people, I'd say, you know, keep your own yard clean and don't worry on what's going on across the street.

I love your answer.

I couldn't agree with you more.

Now, do you personally think, because I know a lot of people think that, and I got this question from over 10 people.

Do you think most men, most women that use a lot of porn, they're trying to fill up some kind of an emotional gap or

there is something missing in their relationship or you think it has no relationship to what you're living?

Well, again, it depends who you are.

You know, there are largely two groups of people.

There are the addicts and there are the recreational users.

With the addicts like I was, it doesn't really have to do with sex.

It doesn't doesn't have to do with the naked people.

It's that, and I was also an alcoholic, you know, in the past.

And I can tell you, I use these two addictions basically the same.

And it wasn't because I like the taste of beer more than you do.

It wasn't that, you know, I just like looking at naked people more than you do.

It's that these substances did something.

to help me cope with life.

But I wasn't a gambling addict.

I wasn't a drug addict.

I found these two things that helped me.

So when it comes to addiction, you have to realize addicts are not watching porn for the same reason as average people and when average people are watching porn i think it can be for a variety of reasons it can be to uh you know use as a visual aid what you are masturbating it can be to it can be because you think you're in a relationship that you're not enjoying um and that can be either your fault or it can be your partner or it could be both of you uh you know you should probably talk about it before you go and start hiding your porn use you know if you're in a relationship and you're sneaking around looking at porn there's something unhealthy about your relationship there's something unhealthy about your sex life that's the unhealthy component that i'm talking about yeah i don't think porn porn is not inherently evil porn is not inherently uh a something that you know we need to ban or anything like that i absolutely believe in people having the freedom to look at it but it's very easy to cross that line into unhealthy sexuality because we have such a stigma around it yes we do so that brings me to the next question a lot of people hide it a lot of men hide it from their partners their wives their girlfriends because i know it's because a lot of my girlfriends are like that they get mad like if they catch their husband or their boyfriend watching porn they think oh why is he doing that doesn't he like me am i not good enough so that there's a big part of men hiding the fact that they watch porn i personally don't think porn has anything to do with whether your relationship is good or bad i i think let's say i can be having a great sex life with my boyfriend and sometimes i still want to watch it what is your opinion do you think you that it's related or not

Well,

I would say that it absolutely is related, and I'd say that it's not just a porn issue.

If your boyfriend at the time said, I'm not comfortable with you watching porn.

It makes me feel bad.

Please don't.

I think that if the relationship is important enough to you, you put that off to the side and you don't use it.

Because I think it is an absolutely understandable request.

What happens with both addicts and with the partners, usually women of men who look at porn, a lot of them deal with what's called betrayal trauma, which is the belief that the partner is picking the porn over them.

That the partner, especially if they're lying, which is unhealthy.

But, you know, what happens a lot of the time is that a woman will discover her man watching porn.

He's been lying about it.

And immediately that starts, well, what else is he lying about?

Is he seeing other women?

Is he attracted to other women?

Gee, we used to have sex three times a week.

Now we're only having it once.

What's going on?

And it's just it's something that just snowballs.

Yeah.

And that's not healthy.

If you're in a relationship, you know, what might be healthy for you as a single woman may not be healthy for your relationship.

And that's one of those things where communication is the key to relationships.

And if your boyfriend or your girlfriend tells you that looking at pornography is absolutely a no-no for me, then you have to decide.

You know, I would never date somebody or be married to somebody who smokes cigarettes I just it killed too many people in my family I think it's disgusting I draw the line at that if you came to the relationship and you were smoking cigarettes I would tell you I'm not going to be with a smoker and then you can decide and that's that that's the most healthy thing to do I think that's such a good point I guess for some couples it might be super healthy if they both agree that they want to do it together and I like that you said when you start doing it and you're hiding from your partner, maybe that's when you have a problem, right?

Right.

Well, the one thing I will say,

and statistics and a recent study bear this out, is that couples who marry couples who introduce pornography to their relationship to try to spice things up end up divorced three times more

than people who don't.

Oh, and I don't necessarily

think that porn equals divorce, but I think that what they're doing is they're using the pornography as a band-aid or as you know, trying to think it's maybe medicine to fix whatever the problem is.

And porn is not going to fix your problem.

No,

that's why these people end up divorced.

So if you were in a relationship and, you know, your husband or your wife, you know,

you think that introducing porn to the bedroom is going to make things better, you know, it could.

Statistically, it doesn't.

Statistically, yeah, I think it's almost like adding fuel to the fire.

I don't know, like you're bringing trouble somehow.

Like you said, it sounds like a good idea, but probably it's not.

I guess it's kind of like doing a threesome.

Most girls end up doing it because it's a guy's fantasy, and most of the time it ends up like in something bad.

So when you are an addict,

I guess you were you hiding?

Were you married?

Or were you single?

Yeah, yeah, I became an addict around 12, 13 years old.

And I met my wife when I was 26.

And by that point, after 13 years, I knew exactly how to hide it.

I knew exactly when to engage, how to engage, how to hide it, how to manipulate the people around me.

And my wife, she wasn't a prude by any means.

She had a

feeling that porn was okay.

If we went off to a hotel for the weekend, she'd be the one who turned turned on the porn on the TV at the hotel.

But

she wasn't a prude at all.

But even then, I recognized that I watched porn for reasons different than the average person.

And so I wasn't watching it the same way she was.

So

she knew that I looked at porn from time to time.

She had that boys will be boys thing.

You know, if I forgot to erase my history on my browser, but she had no idea how much I actually watched porn and the deeper reasons why I did until

about seven years ago.

Oh wow I see so

do you think I guess porn addiction is like any other addiction like alcohol addiction like drug addiction it can be just as bad right

absolutely because here's the thing addiction ends in one of five ways.

You either lose your family, you lose your friends, you lose your job, you suffer financial consequences, or you suffer legal consequences.

And after you suffer one or more of those consequences, you then either get better or you find an early grave.

And

sadly, that's the way addiction works, no matter what your addiction is.

And that's why I always tell people, if you suspect you have

any kind of addiction,

get yourself to a therapist.

And

just find out if you do qualify as an addict and then if you do figure out a strategy for getting better because uh addiction doesn't end well but josh listen like we were saying before there's a lot of stigma around porn there a lot most people are embarrassed to even talk about it so if somebody's listening to us they they're like oh my god maybe it's me how does someone get help for something like that like what's the first step how did you get help Well, I mean,

uh, well, I mean, the first step is admitting that you have a problem.

My story is a little interesting because I went to rehab for alcoholism, and it was after I was,

I didn't even know porn addiction was a thing.

And after about five or six weeks at this rehab out in California, my case manager said, I think you have an addiction to pornography because I was very honest with him.

And

I started to meet with a certified sex addiction therapist off campus twice a week.

And he helped me realize that you know there was this stuff in my past that I knew was there but I didn't want to deal with I knew that I had a babysitter that did some horrific stuff to me but I didn't want to deal with it he helped me start to deal with it he helped me start to recognize that I had porn addiction separate from alcoholism and when I got I started I did the 12 step groups for a little while when I got home to where I live in Maine I started seeing a therapist uh twice a week, and I also started doing as much research as I could about it.

I finally, a year later, I actually went to a porn and sex rehab in Texas where that's something I've got.

So there are rehabs.

That's good to put out there.

So there are specific rehabs for porn addicts.

Yes, absolutely.

That is good to know.

And if somebody wants, like if some guy out there, because I know you set up a group, right?

You set up a group for porn addicts.

So you can.

absolutely.

So if somebody wants to reach out to you as an expert, how do they find you?

You can find me on my website.

Like you mentioned at the top, right as we're taping this,

I'm renovating it because I'm preparing for a TED Talk I have coming up in December.

But

you can still get on my website.

It's recoveringpornaddict.com.

Recovering porn.

And if you don't want to contact me, recoveringpornaddict.com, there's resources there besides me.

There's different rehabs.

The ones that I went to are there.

There are links to 12-step groups.

There are links to online forums.

There are links to a whole lot of articles you can look at.

One of the things that I did since I have my professional life before I started doing this was all about journalism.

So I'm a researcher.

So I did as I've done as much research as I can about porn addiction because that's part of how I deal with things.

And everybody deals with things in their own way.

I've tried a lot of different things.

I quit 12-step groups after about a year because I got out of them what I needed.

I didn't need to continue with it.

And I'm doing it my way.

Some people stick with 12-step groups, some people never go.

And if I can get better, anybody can get better.

Wow, that's great.

So now, before I let you go, there is a movie, a friend of mine actually told me about it this morning.

It's called Thanks for Sharing.

I don't know if you watched it with Mark Ruffallo and Gwyneth Paltrow.

And in this movie, he's a recovering sex addict.

And so as they travel and they go places, the first thing he would do is call the reception and say, please take the TV out of my bedroom because he was afraid he was gonna sleep up and watch it again.

Is it something that you do or something that you recommend if somebody is having this problem?

Or is it just a movie?

In very early recovery, I think you need to do that kind of stuff.

Very early on, you need to create hurdles for yourself.

You need to create just those little moments where you're not going to look or you have to think about it.

Now, here I am almost seven years later.

It's not that hard for me anymore.

You know, if I see a sexy woman in a movie, I might be like, ooh, she's really pretty.

But that's natural.

That's natural to think that.

It's not natural to go, oh, I want to jump on the internet see if she's been naked in any movies that's that's a choice i make you know it's it's a natural reaction i had a i had a uh counselor at my rehab saying you're allowed to think anything for three seconds because that's just your body reacting after three seconds you're deciding what to do and he said it's like when you when you get cut off in traffic and you think i want to kill you well You don't, you don't.

Right.

You just go, okay, okay,

that guy's an ass.

Forget him.

And then you move on with with your life and that's what you have to do when you're an addict you know you can get those little twinges for a second or two but you need to learn that you are in control ultimately and it's it's obviously much easier said than done but through practice it works and cognitive behavioral therapy if anybody out there is looking for what kind of therapy to start with go with cognitive behavioral therapy it literally treats it teaches you how to retrain your brain to think differently in the in those situations.

Amazing.

Wow, you're incredible.

I have 10 million more questions to ask, but we're running out of time.

So I will definitely invite you back and I hope you come.

In the meantime, guys, check out his site.

If anybody wants to send Josh a message,

your site is still under construction, right?

You guys can send me a message through my Insta and everything.

You can reach me there.

It's under renovation.

Okay, yeah.

It's still real.

It's still renovated.

Because the interesting thing about it,

I i love it because when we open this discussion you realize there are so many people out there that actually want to talk about it and they don't know where to go and there is a lot of a shame around the topic so don't be shy if anybody needs help if you feel like you're warning watching porn too much like you said and it's affecting your life and your relationship shoot us a message Thank you so much, Josh.

You're amazing.

Thanks, Kat.

I enjoyed my time.

This is Kat on the Lose.

And I'm going to drop this right now because I don't edit.

It's all raw and real.

And we'll see Josh soon again.

Thank you, guys.