Meet CLARA - NOT a Dating App - with CEO & Founder Jillian Romero Chavez

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Speaker 7 My guest today is adorable entrepreneur Jillian Ramire-Chavez. She created a dating logbook app called Clara for Daters.
And as they describe it, it's not a dating app.

Speaker 7 Clara for Daters is basically a diary, a login book that you can put all your dates, you can answer questions about your dates, you can organize your dates in order to decide who you want to connect connect with, who you want to go on another date with, who you don't want to go on a date with, who might be a potential friend.

Speaker 7 It's super, super interesting, very innovative. And as you guys know, I'm always trying to find new ways that we can date smarter.
And hey, if Clara helps, I'm all for it.

Speaker 7 I hope you guys enjoy my really fun conversation with beautiful and super intelligent Jillian.

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Speaker 2 Jillian, welcome to Ket on the Luz.

Speaker 8 Thank you so much for having me.

Speaker 2 I really appreciate you coming to the studio. When I got an email from you guys and you told me you created something different,

Speaker 2 that it's not really a dating app, and I am always, always trying to find smarter, easier ways to date. I'm like, okay, I got to talk to this chick.
So let's jump right on it.

Speaker 2 Can you explain to us what is Clara?

Speaker 8 Yeah, so Clara for Daters, again, is not a dating app, it's an intentional dating journal and also like a CRM to kind of help you remain intentional as you're dating so I'm also single and I'm a dater and it's really tricky for me to stay focused on the people that I'm dating and looking at the good qualities about the people when there's just so many distractions in the modern day of dating a lot of quantity right a lot of not a lot of quality but a lot of quantity exactly

Speaker 2 so okay so Clara is not a dating app so somebody downloads it it's not a place that you go and you're going to swipe right and left, right and left, right and left.

Speaker 8 Yeah, you're never going to meet anyone on Clara. It's something that you use to help you.
If you're on dating apps, you should have Clara because it's helping you sort through that.

Speaker 2 Okay, so let's get Clara so you can talk us step by step and then we'll rewind the story and you tell us how you came up with it. So I just downloaded it today.
So it's called Clara for Daters. Yep.

Speaker 2 And it's on the app store. Anybody that is single, anybody that is dating.
Yeah. Anybody that is sick of the dating game, right? Yeah.

Speaker 2 So you download Claire. So the first step is

Speaker 2 you guys ask for my name. So I said, hi, Kat Zamudo.
And I put, you ask for my photo. I put a photo there.
Then I open it and you're right. It doesn't start showing me a bunch of guys, which I like.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 2 But it says your prospects. What does that mean?

Speaker 8 So the people that you're currently talking to are dating.

Speaker 8 That's what prospects are. So for me, I use dating apps to meet people, right, as an introduction tool.
And I use Clara to help organize.

Speaker 8 So, for me, for example, when I open my Clara, you'll see the people that I'm currently talking to are going on dates with, and those are my prospects.

Speaker 8 And they'll be up there because I already logged them in. I met them on Hinge or Bumble or Match or whichever dating app that I found them on, or I met them, maybe you introduced me to someone, right?

Speaker 8 And then I'll put them that way.

Speaker 2 Okay, so you

Speaker 2 upload

Speaker 2 that you

Speaker 2 are meet that you met or are going to meet or communicating with from all the dating apps you upload them on Clara yep I just log it just like you're like I know into fit anyone into fitness understands this it's just like my fitness pal right you're uploading or logging in what you're eating this is what you're logging in who you're spending time with yeah so it's just keeping it organized and then okay well obviously I have a question how many people are you talking to at the same so I can barely handle one, maybe two at the same time, but I'm not like, I never talk to a bunch of people at the same time.

Speaker 8 Yeah, and so everyone's different, right? I think it's really hard because on the dating apps, like, are we actually, it's different descriptions, right?

Speaker 8 Are we talking, are we considering talking to people when we're on the dating apps? Because right now, in like my hinge right now, right, you'll see like five guys are talking to me.

Speaker 8 But I know out of those five guys that are talking to me on Hinge, maybe one or two I'll actually end up going going on a date with, right? And that's only on Hinge.

Speaker 8 On Bumble, it's the same amount, right?

Speaker 8 So I actually only put the ones that I know that I'm going to go on a date with that I'm excited about. I put those in there.

Speaker 8 And then it's up to you on how many people you want to actually date at a time. And that's another differentiator that I want to say is so many people are like, oh yeah, I'm dating.

Speaker 8 But the reality is they're just talking on dating apps and they're not actually going on dates.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I know, because we talk to, like you said, dozens of people and very, very few translate into an actual date.

Speaker 8 Exactly. So that's what this is for.
This is for the people who translate to dates who are lower funnel.

Speaker 8 And even now, like I was talking to a guy last week and we had plans to go on a date and he ended up ghosting me.

Speaker 8 Now he's in my app because, oh, I figured we set a time and or whatever, but he ghosted me. We never got to like the actual date.

Speaker 8 And so that actually shows another reason or another kind of case study where someone just, it didn't even work out, didn't convert it to the game.

Speaker 2 Because I think it's the same with the guys and everybody else. They're talking to so many people at the same time.
Maybe they went on a date, he went on a date to somebody else before.

Speaker 2 And they're like, oh, I like this girl. And then that's usually what happens.

Speaker 2 Okay, so then you upload all your prospects. So what do you do? We should do, should we do like a screenshot of the guy?

Speaker 8 So most of my users just take a screenshot of the photo they like and they upload the picture in there. They put in their name.
They put in the age of the guy. And this is for guys and girls.

Speaker 8 I have male users as well. Okay.

Speaker 8 And then they do the same thing. Take a picture of the guy, put it in, put their name, put in where they work, and then also where they met them.

Speaker 8 So that's what's also interesting for me for the data, right? Is because I know I actually go on most first dates. My best source right now is Hinge.
So I know that. Is that your favorite dating app?

Speaker 8 It's not my favorite. It's the one that I actually get the most first dates from.

Speaker 8 I actually get more second and third dates, like less first dates, but more second and third date quality dates on Bumble.

Speaker 8 But the most, but the best for me is honestly referrals from friends and family. But this is all data.

Speaker 2 I love that referral.

Speaker 8 Yeah, referrals. But this is all data that I can actually see now because I'm and because I'm tracking it and paying attention.

Speaker 2 Okay, so you and then I'm looking at the Clara app here. It's very interesting.
Then it says prospect roster. So then that's where all your prospects are.

Speaker 8 Yeah, so it's your roster and it's a kind of a TikTok, but also like, you know, yeah, general term that people use. But the reality is these are people that you're dating, right?

Speaker 8 You're going on a first date, second date with. Some people get really upset about the term roster dating or rotational dating.

Speaker 8 And a lot of dating coaches kind of coach this is something to do, right? So you don't put all your eggs in one basic. Here is where you can actually keep track of your roster.

Speaker 8 And that's up to you in terms of what those terms look like, right? Because you could be dating three people at the same time. You could be sleeping with all of them.

Speaker 8 You could be not sleeping with all of them. You could be exclusive.
Like that's up to you to decide that. But the reality is this is where they are.

Speaker 8 And then once in their roster, there's actually a way to

Speaker 8 categorize them, your prospect, on how you feel it's going. So like tryouts, it's new and exciting.

Speaker 8 Committed, it's getting serious or friendlies just to, you know, you know, have fun kind of situation. And then you can also cut people from your roster.
Right. So for me,

Speaker 8 I'm actually having no active prospects right now. Everyone that I've been dating or had dates with, they're all in the cut.
So I'm like single, single.

Speaker 2 Oh, okay, so

Speaker 2 the cut is, okay, so when you, just for people that are listening to us, and you guys can go and get the app and see for yourselves.

Speaker 2 But so the prospect roster says active, meaning like you just said, people were dating. And by the way, you are completely right.

Speaker 2 Every single dating expert I've ever interviewed on Canon DeLuzen, I've interviewed so many, they all say, keep your options open until both of you decide, okay, this is an exclusive relationship.

Speaker 2 There is no reason to just stop date. I've made this mistake before, of course, and I got burned.
I have too. We all have.

Speaker 2 Because I'm like so much about quality. Like I said, I can't juggle people.

Speaker 2 I barely have time to juggle my life right now. So when I meet someone, I'm like, okay, I like this person.
And I go on date one, date two, date three.

Speaker 2 Even if we're still getting to know each other, I'm usually not juggling other dudes.

Speaker 2 I like completely stop opening the dating apps, I don't talk to anybody else, I kind of focus on my attention on that person to see where it's gonna go.

Speaker 2 But all dating experts, matchmakers, whatever, they say that that's a really bad idea.

Speaker 8 Yeah, I mean, the assumption, the thing is, I'm like you. That's how I used to date too.

Speaker 8 But the reality is, in today's day and age, with all the options, you have to assume that the person is talking to other people.

Speaker 8 And for you to get so invested, so early on, and not having a clarity when it comes to what the other person is feeling and how they're approaching this very early introduction, right?

Speaker 8 Early funnel, if you can think of sales, like it's still early. We haven't even considered, like, are we going on a test drive yet? Like, that's not even there yet.
It's still very early.

Speaker 8 So, it's important to just try to stay grounded. And for me, emotionally, that was really tough.

Speaker 8 But because I have this app now and I use it, it keeps it in my mindset non-emotional and more like, yeah, this is new. I barely know this person.
It's still very early.

Speaker 8 And it helps me understand, okay, well, I didn't work out with this guy this week. Like, I didn't have a very good date, but I have another date with another guy this next week.

Speaker 8 And it helps me just kind of stay positive.

Speaker 2 I love that. And I definitely think it's a great idea because I think, especially women, right? When we start dating someone,

Speaker 2 because I think most of us are dreaming about the fairy tale and we want to find the perfect match. We want to find the soulmate.

Speaker 2 We get very invested. Oh, for sure.
And that's usually how we get burned. I was dating this guy that I met on Bumbo for four months.

Speaker 2 So, I mean, we were really into each other's lives. You know, we were totally acting like a couple.

Speaker 2 He met all my friends, he met my clients. You know, I would spend weekends at his house.
He would spend weekends at my house. We went on a business trip together.

Speaker 2 So I'm thinking, like, I'm not in love with this guy, but I mean, I'm invested in this relationship. So I stopped dating other people out of respect for him.
I deleted my dating apps.

Speaker 2 I deleted bumble and I made the stupid mistake of telling him like oh I deleted bumbo and like three months into it I found out he was still on bumbo

Speaker 2 because he told me he was like yeah I'm and and obviously that day I should have said okay I'm jumping on bumbo myself yeah and I didn't yeah you know so I yeah I agree with you now looking back I would have said, I never would have deleted the dating app so soon.

Speaker 2 I never would have told him I'm deleting the dating app for you.

Speaker 2 And maybe I should have kept my options open the same way that as much as everything was fabulous between us, you know, like two people that match in every way, he was still like, oh, let me see what else is out there, you know?

Speaker 2 And I should have done the same.

Speaker 8 Well, and that's the thing.

Speaker 8 You can't assume anything about what the other person is doing.

Speaker 8 Or if you're doing it, you assume that they're doing it too right and that's so hard because we want to assume the best and we want to assume oh this person's as into me as I'm into them and of course they're already deleting I don't even need to have this conversation but the reality is if you're talking to other people and still keeping it light it honestly makes the conversation come up more naturally where you can say like and you'll have the confidence to say because you know you have a option B, C, D, like you have other people to talk to, right?

Speaker 8 So when you're actually sitting there and like saying, okay, I really want to become exclusive or delete the apps, what do you think?

Speaker 8 It's easier to have that conversation because if the guy says no, it's like, well, no big deal. I'm going to,

Speaker 8 I'm going to move on. And otherwise, but because you have all your eggs in one basket, you have that conversation and the guy says no, then you just feel devastated.

Speaker 8 And that's where the emotional mental health of modern dating is so hard because that's that happens over and over and over again because the accessibility of meeting new people.

Speaker 8 And that's where Clara kind of helps because it's putting you in the mindset of what's really occurring and not going to where you think or the potential it can be.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I completely agree with you. And I think at least what I see with Clara, and I haven't tried it yet, I just, I downloaded the app, but I haven't uploaded anybody yet.

Speaker 2 But I think it makes it, like you said, more matter of fact. Like, you know, I want to find a partner.
I want to be in a relationship, but I'm not going to hurry the process. Exactly.

Speaker 2 And like you said, you know, okay, I'm really dating this guy. I went on five, six, seven dates with this guy, but maybe if it doesn't work out, I have these other guys that really like me.

Speaker 2 I'm going to give them a shot.

Speaker 2 In the past, like I'm giving this example with this quote-unquote boyfriend, because I think four months was a long time. I thought it was disrespectful to do that.

Speaker 2 I was like, if I'm like sleeping with this guy, he's sleeping with me, he's all over my life, he's meeting my friends, you know, I'm meeting his friends, we're taking trips together, I'm still going to to talk to other guys.

Speaker 2 You know, I like to be very loyal and very ethical in everything in my life, but obviously the way I date, I kind of thought it was just rude

Speaker 2 to be like chatting with other people. But apparently, like you said, most people do do it.

Speaker 8 Yeah, no, you can't assume anything. Honestly, I grew up in business.
I was a car exec for so many years, and then

Speaker 8 I was very good at that, legal terms, agreeing to this or that.

Speaker 8 But going to my dating life I'm not as good right because I was in a romantic state always with dating on I'm gonna assume the person's not talking to other people because I'm not talking to each other or other people and the reality is it's not like that if you actually put on your business mindset because we do we go and we look at our agreements we're making sure of the terms and everything and we over communicate everything if there's a line item in an agreement that doesn't that doesn't doesn't clearly state what we're comfortable in we're gonna get our lawyers on it and like let's write something right and that's up to you as a dater to do the same thing.

Speaker 8 That's how you protect your mental health is you get very clear on what terms are because now there's so many. Like

Speaker 8 people are so fluid in sexualities, in relationship styles, in everything. You might be in a relationship with a non-monogamous person and you don't know it because you never ask a question, right?

Speaker 8 So don't assume, assume nothing, ask everything. and then continue to choose the person as you keep uncovering things.
Are their words aligning with what they're saying?

Speaker 8 Are their words aligned with what they're doing? That's how you continue to do your due diligence.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I think that's really, really good advice, especially for women, because I think we have the tendency of being a little more emotional in our dating.

Speaker 2 And I think most guys, I know some guys definitely are looking for a relationship, I know, but I think they're like a diamond in the sand.

Speaker 2 But I really believe most guys on these dating apps, and I always use this expression, they're literally ordering girls like DoorDash because it massages their ego. It's so easy.

Speaker 2 There's just this quantity there. I've had guy friends say that to me, and even my ex-boyfriend was like, oh my God, it's so nice to see all these girls that want to go out with me.

Speaker 2 It's good for my ego. So most people are not there with the right intention.

Speaker 2 So I think if we maybe use your approach, this is why I really wanted to talk to you, because I think it's a very business-oriented approach.

Speaker 2 It protects our heart.

Speaker 2 I think it might keep us from prematurely suffering if something doesn't work out.

Speaker 8 Oh, for sure. And the reality is, I mean, there's the next aspect of my app is also to help you find those people yourself.

Speaker 8 So, you're not going to see it right now, but when you actually go on a date and log the person and then you log the date, it asks you some questions after the date, right? So, it says,

Speaker 8 Where was your date? When was your date?

Speaker 8 How was your mood before the date? Right. And then it asks you 10 questions.

Speaker 8 And the questions are going to be around determining your relational safety, your physical safety, your emotional safety, your chemistry, and your values.

Speaker 8 And I developed this with psychologists, these questions.

Speaker 2 So it's kind of like a little diary.

Speaker 8 It is. But these questions are really prompts to help you reflect on how that date actually went.
So for example, one of the questions would be, was it obvious that he was into you? Yes or no.

Speaker 8 Did you feel respected? Yes or no?

Speaker 8 Did he ask you questions about yourself? Yes or no? Was he nice to those around you? Yes or no. Was there a quality about him that you found attractive? Yes or no?

Speaker 8 So you can see when you're asking those questions, they're pretty general questions and they're very specific to determining how you felt in that interaction. Not was he hot or not, right? Not was he.

Speaker 2 But you could ask, did you feel like you have chemistry with him?

Speaker 8 So that's where, was there a quality about your date that you found attractive?

Speaker 2 That's another way to ask about about chemistry. Like for me, if I don't have chemistry, that's it.
I don't want to go on a second date with someone I don't have chemistry with.

Speaker 8 So and that's where it's interesting because chemistry can be very easily confused with behavior, attraction styles, attachment styles, all that stuff. It can be easily confused.

Speaker 8 And that's been my problem. I had an attraction and natural chemistry towards guys that are a bit bad boy kind of considered, right?

Speaker 8 And honestly, those are the guys that do the best on these dating apps too.

Speaker 8 the top 10 of all these guys they get all the likes all they're the ones who are telling you it's a door dash for me i get everything but there's a good 90 of guys who aren't getting all those likes they are they're you know maybe they're not as cute in their profile pics maybe they're a little bit shorter than what people want maybe they're not having the jobs and it's our job to learn how to start swiping yes on those guys so that our algorithm shifts so that we can start seeing the 90% of the guys who aren't getting the 10% of likes.

Speaker 8 But that's what is needed is behavior change. Again, going back to like nutrition, when we eat pizza every day of the week, yeah, it tastes good, tastes good.

Speaker 8 But then we need to like start deciding in our minds, well, how do we make our brain think that salads taste good, right? And that's where reflection comes in.

Speaker 8 And we're like, actually, I felt really good after this salad. I felt like after this chicken, whatever I was eating, I felt I had more energy.
I wasn't sleepy. I was all this stuff.

Speaker 8 And that's what I'm trying to do with Clara is develop that same feeling. So after I leave this date, where I wasn't like, oh my God, I'm so attracted to him.
I can't wait.

Speaker 8 It was more like, I had a really nice time. And he really was obviously into me.
And I felt good after it. I should go out.
I'm curious to get to know him more. So it's a little bit, it's slow.

Speaker 8 It's a slow burn, especially for women.

Speaker 2 I love the analogy with the food. And I completely agree.
And yes, most girls,

Speaker 2 we've done that. We go for the bad boy.
I have no no idea why.

Speaker 2 But yeah, I think there are a lot of wonderful guys out there, but we don't see them because sometimes their profiles are so shitty. Their photos, that's like a big conversation, right?

Speaker 2 Most guys don't know how to put like a nice photo there

Speaker 2 or they don't know how to explain well. So yeah, I think you need to be like a little more open-minded.

Speaker 2 And that's something that I'm learning because usually I do 500, 1,000 swipes. to the left.
Wow. Literally.
That's why I am.

Speaker 2 And every once in a blue moon, I'm like, ah, okay, maybe I'll give this guy a chance. And now I'm trying to be a little more open-minded.

Speaker 2 Like you said, you know, maybe this person is not the person that I think I would go out with, but you never know. Somebody might surprise you.
Yeah. You know, you got to open up your

Speaker 2 horizons, your mindset.

Speaker 8 Yeah, and I did have that situation. I was dating a guy early last year that I met through Hinge, and it was someone that he wasn't necessarily my type.

Speaker 8 Like he was cute, but he wasn't necessarily my type. So I was like, okay, I'll go out with him.
And I logged the date in Clara, and he scored a 10.

Speaker 8 And I was like, oh my gosh, like, okay, well, this is something to reflect on. Cause I wasn't necessarily, I was like, should I go on a second date with him? I don't know.

Speaker 8 And I had set up another date with a guy that was like really hot on that I met on Bumble on that later that week. And part of me was like, I just kind of want to see how the really, that date goes.

Speaker 8 The guy with the really hot guy, let's see how that goes. So I went on the date with the really hot guy, did that, reflected in Clara.
He actually scored really low.

Speaker 8 It wasn't obvious that he wasn't to me. He was rude to the people around me.

Speaker 8 And I was making excuses. Deal breakers.

Speaker 8 But this is the thing. I was making excuses during the date that would have

Speaker 8 let him get away with it. But because I was asked those questions afterwards, it didn't let me get away with it.
Like during the date, I was like, oh, he was rude to them because he was hangry.

Speaker 8 Like, that's, that's okay.

Speaker 8 Right. And that's what we shouldn't have.

Speaker 2 Oh, yeah, it's not okay. Exactly.
Hence, great idea doing a diary. I love that.
Cause usually I don't think I ever reflected on it. Like, I'll go on a date.
I go home. I'm like, yeah, this is nice.

Speaker 2 Oh, yeah, this is great. But I don't really, you know, sit down and dissect it and think about it.
But that's

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Speaker 9 Bad CRM was then. This is ServiceNow.

Speaker 2 A really great method to decide, you know, should I go out on a date to this person again or not?

Speaker 8 Well, and it's honestly rediscovering the value of just the social connection, not the outcome, not like, did I get into a relationship?

Speaker 8 Because what happens when we go on a bad date, we just get so discouraged because, oh, that was another waste of time for all those messages, all those swipes, and I'm still not in a relationship.

Speaker 8 Instead, the mindset should be, okay, I went on another date, I tried a new restaurant, like I worked the muscles, the social connection muscles, and I'm getting better at dating.

Speaker 8 And it wasn't a bad use of time because I learned something about about myself and I learned something about what I'm looking for so it's actually a positive again going back to working out it's like workouts you can never have a bad workout right you went it's a muscle and this is another thing that I say too

Speaker 2 I think most people, this is how they approach a date, right? Like, I want to find my partner. And then they get nervous and then they put so much expectation into it.

Speaker 2 The way I do it, and a lot of my girlfriends copy that because it takes all the pressure away. I'm like, oh, I'm going to meet somebody new.

Speaker 2 Maybe it's going to be like a law of romantic connection, but maybe it's a great new best friend. Maybe it's a business contact.
You know, it can become a client for my business.

Speaker 2 So the minute I start changing my mindset, like I can repurpose that person. I don't just go like, oh, is he the man of my life? Exactly.

Speaker 2 Because that's what makes people get so nervous because you put so much expectation towards that date.

Speaker 8 Yeah, no, that's a perfect mindset.

Speaker 8 um honestly in clara too there's a friendlies category so you can actually put someone in just yeah i see here so active friendlies yeah like if you go on a date with someone yeah and you're like oh i really like this guy but i want to be friends with him i don't want to date him then you put them on the friendly category yeah so for me i have like five or six guys that i went on dates with this last year who are friendlies and i keep them there just in case i meet someone that that a friend or whatever who's looking for someone similar and then I can go and I introduce them because I think that's I mean it's a little backup plan.

Speaker 8 Yeah, well, it was a nice guy, right? It just wasn't my guy, but there's so many single women out there, you know, people who are looking. And I can be part of the, I can help be part of the problem.

Speaker 2 I'll be a little matched. Yeah, totally.
I do that too.

Speaker 2 Like, if I meet a guy that's not for me, or even if I meet a guy at an event or something, if I think they match one of my girlfriends, I'm like, hey, I met this guy, I think he's good for you.

Speaker 8 Yeah, it's all positive energy.

Speaker 2 Just keep putting in the positive energy out there in the world.

Speaker 8 None of this negative energy.

Speaker 2 And by the way, yeah, if you meet a guy and you don't like him for yourself, like I said, usually the tendency is, okay, I never have to see this person again. But look at

Speaker 2 that person, like, can they have a different purpose in my life?

Speaker 2 Like I said, maybe you have common interests and he can become one of your best friends. Yeah.
Or whatever your business is, maybe your businesses have synergy.

Speaker 2 It has happened to me so many times that I still have people in my life that I went on dates with, but I never really dated.

Speaker 2 And we became like best friends or whatever. We did business together or something.

Speaker 8 And that's still like that's a powerful connection.

Speaker 8 And with the world that we're in, with loneliness, epidemic, and social isolation, it's important to see those as wins as well because that's part of human flourishing, right?

Speaker 8 Even though it's not a romantic social connection, that's a very meaningful social connection for you. And it made you feel good.
And that's something to be applauding about as well.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I agree. And then you have something here called Clara card.

Speaker 2 What's that?

Speaker 8 So I don't, there's no meeting anyone on Clara. However, I did hear a lot from my users how we want to have our friends help us and let our friends introduce here or there.

Speaker 8 So what you can do here is you can actually fill out a bio and then it's just like your own personal website for your link.

Speaker 8 You can turn it on and off and you have basically a text that you can send to your friends and say, hey, if you meet any guy out there,

Speaker 8 please send this to them and

Speaker 8 they can talk to me, either email me or hit me up on Instagram or whatever to go that way.

Speaker 2 That's really cool. So you can do like, yeah, basic information about yourself, where you live, your occupation, education, religious beliefs, children, law.
And you can send your friend the link.

Speaker 8 The link, yeah. And then they can keep it.
I have my friends keep it saved under my contacts, especially because I have so many friends that are married.

Speaker 8 And I'm like, I know you know some single people. And I said, just save my card there.
And I said, next time you're out, because they're always like, oh, it's so awkward.

Speaker 8 I don't know how to introduce you. And I'm like, I'm telling you, here, here is a tool.
All you have to do is go to my name and your phone, click the link, and send the link to the guy.

Speaker 8 And if the guy's interested, he'll reach out to me. And if he's not, if he's read something like, oh, she wants kids, I don't want kids, then that's fine.
Then it's done, right?

Speaker 2 They don't have to do anything.

Speaker 8 It's very low effort for my friends.

Speaker 2 I love that because usually, yeah, if you give somebody's number, oh, you're really gonna like to meet Catherine, and they don't know anything about Catherine, they don't know what I look like, they don't know what I do, it's hard for them to decide if it's a yes or no.

Speaker 2 But if you click on a link link and you see the basics of the person, you know, yeah, they like that. I like that idea.
Yeah, I will definitely fill out mine. How did you come up with this idea?

Speaker 2 Because you were in the car industry, correct? That's like a major shift.

Speaker 8 Yeah.

Speaker 8 So, yeah, I was a car exec for a good eight years and grew up in it, loved it, and was thriving in it.

Speaker 8 But I was also very much a late bloomer when it came to dating. So, like, when I was young, I was always an A student, got into a great university, came back and did really well in my career.

Speaker 8 And I didn't really start dating until like mid to late 20s. Oh, really? Yeah.
And I never, so that going back to my exercise like analogy is I never worked those muscles.

Speaker 8 I never learned what heartbreak looks like, what red flags are, what anxiety feels like versus chemistry. I never learned any of that stuff.

Speaker 8 So then I started dating when I was later and I ended up meeting someone that I fell in love with, right? Completely fell in love with, was super excited,

Speaker 8 had every intention of getting married to this person. He had already bought a ring.
Wow.

Speaker 2 Where to meet them?

Speaker 8 Yeah. We were doing premarital counseling.

Speaker 8 Like, we were on the path. Like, it was exciting.
And my career was doing well. Then COVID hit, and I was home more.

Speaker 8 And I was home one day getting ready and I found out

Speaker 8 like through God and fate and whatever that he had actually been cheating on me the whole time of our relationship.

Speaker 2 Yep, the whole time. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
That time.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 So, why in the world would he propose?

Speaker 8 You know, he had every intention of continuing this double life. I mean, he, and with me, he was like, he was looking better because I'm a big exercise person.
We work out together.

Speaker 8 We were running during COVID.

Speaker 8 Like, I was such an added value to his life. Like, we can see that we were both flourishing and he was thriving in his work as well.

Speaker 8 But he wanted to keep this double life of just secrecy.

Speaker 8 And I found out and I you know left that day thank God but Then I was like okay after this happened I was just in a fear mode I was just so terrified and for me I still want to get married and have kids like that's very important to me But I didn't know how in the world I was gonna be able to do this again because I was so scared that I would make a bad decision again because I was like I didn't trust myself you know how you have an

Speaker 8 like maybe if you have you ever had it in business where you hire someone and it's just a bad hire and then you get fearful of hiring someone again, like it's just, you just

Speaker 2 listen, being cheated on is absolutely, it has happened to me, I think it has happens to so many people and it's just awful.

Speaker 8 Yeah, it's debilitating.

Speaker 2 It's hard to, like you said, you think like, how am I going to trust the next person?

Speaker 2 But I guess the only thing I can say is you cannot let one asshole like this guy ruin for, you know, the next one that really deserves you. So that's how you got to move forward.

Speaker 2 But I know it's very painful.

Speaker 8 It is. And for me, I'm very much an accountability person, right? Because, like, he did that.
That was his action. And it was 100% wrong.

Speaker 8 But what can I do to improve myself so that I don't allow myself to get into that situation again?

Speaker 8 I'm very much, because that the only way that I can control things for me is if I was going to take a step into an action. And for me, that action was learning how to date.

Speaker 8 Well, how do you learn how to date? The only way to learn how to date is honestly through.

Speaker 2 If you can teach me,

Speaker 2 I'm game. Yeah.
another

Speaker 2 learned anything. I've learned, like, I know, well,

Speaker 2 because of the podcast, right? Because I've been doing it for almost four years now, I learn what I don't want. Yeah.
You know, like things like that. I'm pickier.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 I definitely learned there are certain behaviors that are absolutely something we should never accept. But I still think the dating game is such a tough shit show.

Speaker 8 It is. It's very tough and it's hard to stay consistent.
Yeah. But I think as soon as you realize that the efforts that you put in are worth it, again, just like the gym, right? Like it's hard.

Speaker 8 You have to stay consistent. There's no giving up.
There's no stopping going to the gym. It's a lifelong commitment to working these muscles.

Speaker 8 And that's the same as dating or just having meaningful social connections, right? Because I interchange them. I think that dating is a meaningful social connection.
Oh, sure.

Speaker 8 And meaningful social connections is dating. Like you should always be thinking in that direction.

Speaker 8 But yeah, after the breakup, I was just terrified. And I read all the books.
I was like, okay, I'm going to learn how to date. Right.
So I read all the books. I listened to podcasts.

Speaker 8 I was talking to dating coaches. I'm like, I'm going to learn.
But just like school, right? Or like even if you're starting a new diet, you can read everything, but then you actually have to do it.

Speaker 8 Yes. And the doing it.
You have to practice. You have to actually practice it consistently and over a long period of time.
And that's what I struggled with.

Speaker 8 Cause I was like, okay, after the first date, I'm like, oh, wait, the dating coach said I have to ask my questions. So I was like, where's that Instagram post with those questions?

Speaker 8 Or like, wait, what am I supposed to do? So I'm trying to figure it out as I go along. But then the reality is if it was a really cute guy, then I'm like, oh, I don't need to look at it this time.

Speaker 8 Like, it doesn't matter. And then I was like, oh my God, I'm doing it again.

Speaker 8 I need to get intentional again. So then I started writing in a journal.
I was like, okay, what if I like in a journal just really am like honest to myself?

Speaker 8 But then I have this problem of I'm a very like optimistic person. Same.
And I tend to only write down the good things when I'm doing journaling.

Speaker 8 I'm like, oh, like I just completely ignore the bad things and don't write it down. So then that was my second problem.
I was like, all right, well, that's not honest. So then how do I do a third?

Speaker 8 So then I came up with Clara. I was like, what if they ask me yes or no questions and they're only yes or no, I can never put maybe.
So I was like, that'll keep me honest, right?

Speaker 8 That'll, that'll make it to do. And I was like, all right, that makes sense.
And then I started doing a journaling, but then my handwriting sucks.

Speaker 8 So then I was like, well, what if I actually turn it into an app? And then I had a friend who's a a web designer and he's also like a gamer.

Speaker 8 So I was like, it would be fun to make it a little bit more interesting. So it's a bit more gamified.

Speaker 8 And then we put some designs together, and that's how Clara became a thing.

Speaker 2 And what's the name Clara? How'd you pick that? What does that mean? What does that mean?

Speaker 8 Clara is actually my mother's middle name and it's my great-grandmother's name and in Spanish Claro, Clarity. And I really want everyone to have Clarity when they're choosing their partner.

Speaker 8 My grandmother, who is

Speaker 8 83 years old, been married to my grandfather since they were 19.

Speaker 2 Oh, wow, that's nice. That's so rare.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 8 They were 19. I have their picture, their wedding picture in my home.
And she told me the biggest investment you'll ever make in your life is your partner. Biggest investment.

Speaker 8 And it's interesting to me because honestly, you know, the big investments in terms of like actual things is a house and then a car. And I was in the car business, right?

Speaker 8 And the amount of due diligence we do when we're purchasing a vehicle or purchasing a house is a ton.

Speaker 8 Yet, if what grandma says is true, and the biggest investment is in the partner that we choose, why aren't we doing some of this due diligence? Why are we letting chemistry be the driver?

Speaker 8 If I was to be chemistry the driver of some of these beautiful homes and then I never get the home inspection report, I probably get really screwed, you know?

Speaker 2 That is so true. Well, I think chemistry is part of the package.
Yeah. But I think what you said, we need to do our due due diligence.

Speaker 2 So many people just choose the partners in a hurry because they want, like you say, maybe get married, maybe have kids, or maybe just they don't want to be alone. Yeah.

Speaker 2 I literally have girlfriends that say that they're not 100% happy with in their relationships. They're like, oh, I don't want to be alone.
We talk about it.

Speaker 2 I think you need to be super happy alone, love your life, have your interests, and then you find a partner that is going to complement all of that. But I agree with you, Graham.
I think it's probably

Speaker 2 the most or one of the top three most important decisions we make in our lives and we shouldn't just settle.

Speaker 8 Yeah, yeah, the settling can't be.

Speaker 8 It has to be something that optimizes your life. It shouldn't take away from your life.
Life should be an optimization.

Speaker 8 But it's tricky because I have a lot of friends who are like, okay, well, I'd just rather be alone. But then

Speaker 8 I push back because I'm like, I hear you. I hear that it's scary.
I hear that it can be a detriment to choose the wrong people.

Speaker 8 But the reality is we know as humans that social connection is extremely important. And we know that these meaningful connections are

Speaker 8 necessary in order to have a fulfilled human life. Now, it doesn't have to be romantic.

Speaker 8 It could be other connections. But the reality is, if you're not making these connections, then you're going to experience social atrophy.
You're going to experience loneliness.

Speaker 8 And from loneliness comes depression, health issues. Like the surgeon general just put out a report last year and it talks about all the health repercussions that occur when someone is so lonely and

Speaker 8 socially isolated.

Speaker 2 And listen, I don't think anybody should say I'd rather be alone. I think like searching for love and seeking love is such a beautiful, fun part of life.

Speaker 2 And when I see girls talking about, I just want to be alone because I had my heart broken, I'm like, okay, so you let the person that broke your heart like win the game and you're going to be alone.

Speaker 2 No, go for it.

Speaker 2 Pick up the pieces.

Speaker 2 We've all been through heartbreak yeah and i think the right person doesn't break hearts i'm a firm believer like you know there are a bunch of songs that say love hurts and i think it's the opposite yeah i think real love doesn't hurt yes

Speaker 8 when you feel calm and happy and and safe and you don't have to guess right are they gonna call me this weekend are they not gonna call me this weekend do they want to be with me when when all of these answer these questions are answered you know you have the right person so you got to put yourself out there yeah do i mean i completely agree you have to leave your heart open and that's hard to hear especially for people like you and me and most people out there who have been hurt oh yeah and that that's the majority right and that's hard so that's where i'm trying to empower daters with clara because using clara you should be able to de-risk the situation of heartbreak right we're literally de-risking that fact because early on if you're able to stay you know, present early on, pick up red flags, because honestly, if I was using Clara with my, before, when I met my ex, I would have picked up on situations early on that I was uncomfortable with already.

Speaker 8 Like there was a circumstance when we were in a different country and he drank too much and I felt not safe. And that should have been something that I should have paid more attention to and I didn't.

Speaker 8 Situations where I was out and I saw him flirting and I would call him out on it, but I but it wasn't enough for me to say something like, this was not okay, right?

Speaker 8 And I think that's where we're trying to, if we're intentional, if we're the smart people we are, yes, we can have open hearts and we can be very loving and everything, but if we can try to de-risk the situation, you being very intentional, then that's how we can do that.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I think it sounds like a great idea because, like I said, you know, we have a million apps on our phones.

Speaker 2 So if I open Clara and I have prospect one, prospect two, prospect three, and maybe the details we would forget about.

Speaker 2 Like you said, minor behaviors or minor red flags that we tend to ignore. But if I open the diary and I look at everything, at least I have the whole history of what's going on in front of me.

Speaker 2 And in my mind, it clarifies, like, so I can make a more educated decision if you should see that person again or not.

Speaker 2 Now, it could happen that you put a prospect there, like you said, oh, I went on a date and it was a 10,

Speaker 2 and then the guy

Speaker 2 doesn't call you for a second date, or he ghosts you, or something, then what?

Speaker 8 Well, then you can add a note. So I was seeing a guy maybe like six months ago that I kept going out on dates with, and I was feeling chemistry.
I felt like a 10 every time.

Speaker 8 But then then his communication on the texting started getting a little erratic.

Speaker 8 And instead of like hyper-fixating on it, because usually I would be like, oh, like texting him, like, hey, what's going on? Blah, blah, blah.

Speaker 8 I started journaling in Clara because there's a notes section. And I said, I noticed his communication is kind of off today, right? It's something's up.
And then I would do the next day.

Speaker 8 And then I was like, okay, he changed our date for tonight. Something's off.
But because, so now, when I actually, when he actually said something, he said, you know what?

Speaker 8 I I reconnected with my ex and I'm doing that.

Speaker 8 I wasn't blindsided because I had all these notes leading up to it that emotionally I was like, oh, well, I kind of called that. Like it was almost like a, oh, that makes sense, right?

Speaker 8 I wasn't, I was being reflective and I could see that it was coming and it didn't hurt so much

Speaker 8 because I saw it coming.

Speaker 2 Yeah, and people don't need to pay to use it, correct?

Speaker 8 No, it's free. This is a free tool.
My goal is to eventually. No catches.
No catches. Download, no anything.

Speaker 2 And you go to the app store and it's called Clara for Daters.

Speaker 8 Yes, Clara for Daters.

Speaker 2 So guys, if you're listening, yeah, I try it out. I downloaded it this morning on my way from a business trip and I was like, yeah, this seems like fun.
I want to understand how it works.

Speaker 2 But I think it's a great, I love journaling. I love putting my ideas on paper.
And I think maybe this brings a little more clarity,

Speaker 2 hence the word Clara, to the dating game.

Speaker 2 But guys can use it as well, right? Oh, yeah.

Speaker 8 No, we have actually a lot of guys who use it.

Speaker 2 How many users do you have?

Speaker 8 We have over a thousand. And then up the open.

Speaker 2 When did you launch?

Speaker 8 February of last year.

Speaker 2 Oh, wow. Congratulations.
Thank you.

Speaker 8 It's been fun. But even with that,

Speaker 8 they're very great users.

Speaker 8 I have like more than 3,000 dates logged. So people are literally logging at least two dates a month.
They're being very intentional.

Speaker 8 They're trying to pick up, you know, different ways to really make the app meaningful to them.

Speaker 8 And I'm seeing, I have users come back to to me and say, you know, I was in a situationship for four months. I started logging my dates on Clara and I realized how bad I felt after every date.

Speaker 8 And that gave me the courage, seeing it in paper, in like, you know, in the app, seeing that I felt so bad gave me the courage to break up with a situationship.

Speaker 2 I love that. I think it's just such a good way to take notes so we remember what's going on and date smarter.
Yes, yes. Congratulations.
Now, before I let you go,

Speaker 2 we all use dating apps, and you said you use Bumbo, use Hinge. I have to ask your opinion since you created Clara, do you have one that is favorite? Do you have one that you use more or less?

Speaker 2 Or do you only use Bumble and Hinge? Do you use other ones?

Speaker 8 I've used a bunch of different ones. I've used Bumble, Hinge, Tinder, and Upward, which is a Christian-based one.
And I've tried different ones.

Speaker 8 The reality is, it's where you feel like you can be consistent. So if you can spend 15 minutes a day on Hinge or Bumble, whichever ones, user experience-wise, you can be consistent.

Speaker 8 The same people are on all the different apps. That's the reality.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I have matched with the same guy, like in two different apps or something like that. Yeah, so they're everyone.
Almost everybody's

Speaker 8 on every one app. So just pick like two or three, and if you can be consistent on it, whichever one you have the best user experience on.

Speaker 8 And that's the thing why I have a problem with the dating apps with, is because all they're doing is optimizing for the user experience and not necessarily looking at the data experience.

Speaker 8 And that's where Clara tries to bridge that gap because I'm not interested in the match process.

Speaker 8 That's already been done a million times from all these different dating apps. I'm interested in how you actually do your due diligence process after.

Speaker 2 I love that. This is more like individual.

Speaker 2 It's like for me, Catherine, for you, Jillian, to go there and look at how it's going, the people that you want to cut off, the people that you want to give a second chance.

Speaker 2 And I think for in our case, for us girls, if we like a guy and we say, oh, this date was a 10,

Speaker 2 we we sit down and wait and hope that he agrees and invites us on a second date. How do you feel about girls inviting a guy out on a date? I'm super old-fashioned.
I don't do that.

Speaker 8 I am too. I really like it when a guy, like right after the date, even says, I really liked you.
I would love to open your calendar and get a second date on. That is like so attractive to me.

Speaker 8 But the reality is, I had another date maybe a couple weeks ago where he did score a 10, and I wasn't necessarily feeling the chemistry of attraction.

Speaker 8 And he never, he was fishing to see if I would say yes if I would ask him out again and that felt if you would ask him out or no sorry if he would ask if I would say yes to him he was fishing to see if I would say yes and I hate that yeah me too it's not attractive if you want to invite me on a date invite me on a date like plan a date you know be proactive yeah but there's some women who are okay with that like oh yeah I'll reassure him and then he can ask me out I'm not that girl me neither and that's that's just a different chemistry type so it ended up I ended up not going on another date with him because I just didn't find that amount of fishing attributes.

Speaker 2 And then you delete, like you toss the I put them in cut.

Speaker 8 Cut. So this is the other important thing is because they're all in cut.
So I had another guy reach out to me on Monday that I was seeing maybe like four or five months ago.

Speaker 8 And we had been on a couple dates and we ended up just not feeling the chemistry. It was mutual.
And then he pulled back up. He said, hey, I just saw you on Bumble and was thinking about you.

Speaker 8 How have you been? Now, I looked back on my cut and I saw all the dates that I went on him. I saw the reasons why.

Speaker 2 Oh, so they can't, the cut stays there for reference. It's a record.

Speaker 8 So then I saw all the reasons why I cut him and it reminded me instead of because part of me was like, well, maybe I should give it a second shot, right?

Speaker 8 But then I read through all the notes and I was like, no, this was good. And I left it there.
Like, I was like, I don't need to re-engage in this. There was a reason.

Speaker 8 I can see all my notes from a couple months ago.

Speaker 2 I absolutely love that because every once in a blue moon, some guy texts me like, just happened two days ago. This guy texted me like, hi, this is Peter.

Speaker 2 Do you remember me we were talking like two years ago and we and I'm like no I don't remember so then he sends me all this picture everything I'm like yeah I think I've seen your picture but I don't remember but then I was like I'm sure there's a reason why we didn't go on a date but I can't remember the reason so if I had put it on Clara that would be really cool because I can go there wait let me check my date reference yeah that's what I do let me see if you're cataloged yeah no it's there and then you can see what your mind was back then.

Speaker 8 You can see if there was any unanswered questions. I love that.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it works very well.

Speaker 2 And I need it too because my phone is such a chaos of contacts.

Speaker 2 A Brian, for example. I think I have like two dozen Brians there, like between business and dudes I talk to, people I would have dated.

Speaker 2 So if like some Brian texts me, like, I don't know who you are, I don't remember. Yeah.
So this is pretty awesome. I love it.
Congratulations.

Speaker 2 Amazing job. It's such a pleasure having you here in Candolos.
Thank you for having me. And much success.
And I really think you guys should download it. I'm going to give it a whirl.

Speaker 8 Well, and I'd love to get your feedback because that's

Speaker 8 like a dater advocate. I'm so passionate about my users and I love feedback.

Speaker 2 No, 1 million percent.

Speaker 2 So far, I love the idea and I'm game. And now that I understand it even better, I'm actually excited.
I haven't been dating much because I don't have time.

Speaker 2 Like I said, I don't usually juggle people. Usually it's one.

Speaker 2 But I promise I'll give it a try and I'll come back. But I think you guys, yeah, I'm going to get my Clara organized this weekend.
Good. Thank you, Julian.
It's such a pleasure having you guys.

Speaker 2 Be safe out there. Always self-love first and foremost.
And I'll see you very soon. Thank you, Jillian.
Thank you. Congratulations.
Thank you.

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