Sovereign: An Interview with Christian Swegal

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Wow.

I never thought that we would head back into these stormy waters, Ed.

You love these waters.

I do.

And I get used to these waters.

I'm used to the temperature of these waters.

I'm used to the...

You like bought a jacuzzi for these waters.

I like bought like a condo symbolically to look upon these waters like it's my favorite view of the city.

And what we're talking about is the tumultuous waters of the philosophical world of the sovereign citizen.

And we all know that they, we, we're, everybody that had listens to last podcast and left knows this is a pet subject of mine.

I can't tell if you love it or hate it.

I put them below, my ironic embracement of them is below Scientology only just because Scientology has uniforms.

Okay.

That's why.

That's my thing is that sovereign citizens don't get together enough to come up with good like metal systems or like a learning process.

Like that's what we need.

That's what it really needs is packaging.

I feel like it's almost there.

Yeah, it's getting there.

But we have somebody special today.

So someone that went into this

deeper than me for some reason, why you would do this.

I don't know why you would do this to yourself, except to make a truly wonderful film.

We have the director of a new film starring Nick Offerman.

as a sovereign citizen, which is just like, if you could have, you couldn't have chosen a better one.

Like, that's the number one.

If it's not him, it's got to be Michael Shannon.

But because it's him, that's fucking amazing.

We have here the director of this film, Sovereign, Christian Swagel.

Thank you so much for being here.

Thanks for having me.

Yeah.

Now, you wrote this.

Yes.

And it is your first writing directing.

It is.

Yeah.

It's my first film as a writer-director.

Congratulations.

Congratulations.

Is that miserable?

It was, I mean, it was a, it was a lifelong, you know, it's a dream come true to get to do a movie.

It was miserable making the film.

I think anything, anybody who makes a film knows how hard it is to make a film.

But it was the, you know, the best kind of miserable, basically.

But obviously, it can't be more miserable than the inner world of a sovereign citizen.

No, I think you're probably right about that.

And the one thing that you portrayed in this film, which is a very both empathetic look at this, told topic, but it's also, it's a deep dive into the real story of a real sovereign citizen that with his son murdered murdered two police officers that were then killed by the police themselves and that was Jerry Kane and Joe Kane yeah correct yeah that's correct you know now how did you I guess we could start with that yeah start with it how'd you get involved in all this mishagush yeah I mean I had I mean I think like you guys I've been interested in you know I'm interested in fringe ideologies conspiracy theories and you know UFOs or cults you know how how people get involved in those things I've always been interested in that.

But also, I had someone close to me in my personal life who became involved in kind of a sovereign citizen ideology adjacent, sort of anti-government conspiracy theories.

And that was part of a mental health issue.

And in really wanting to understand that, I started researching the sovereign citizen movement and

came across this crime.

And

I just felt like because of my personal experience and my interest in in the subject matter and also i felt like the crime speaks to a lot of themes that i think are relevant today it just felt like a great story to dig into i felt like uh the father-son relationship at the center of it was really compelling and uh i just love the idea of telling it a coming-of-age story of this young kid growing up in an environment like that.

Well, one of the worst parts about the movie is that you're watching it and the whole time I'm like, wow, he really got to spend a lot of time with his son.

That must be kind of nice for him.

Like, we say here on the last podcast on the left all the time that movements like the QAnon movement and stuff like this is that quite more often than not, it's about the friends you make along the way.

Yeah.

So it's about community.

It's about in a weird purpose.

Well, that's true.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's about community.

And this movie really reflects that.

Is there like something to learn about a father so desperate almost to spend time with his son?

Yeah, I mean, I think, I think that

even though the ideas that these guys are clinging on to, I think are sort of just factually,

you can say that they're pretty off.

You know, the answers that they're arriving at are wrong.

But I think in a lot of cases, the injury that they've sustained or the reason that they're looking for this kind of an answer is really valid.

You know, a lot of the sovereign citizens that I've spoken to and known,

you know, they lost their home after 2008 or they had insurance that didn't pay out, that they were actually owed, or they filed their taxes wrong, and then they were hit with a wave of penalties that just had them underwater.

And I think, in the absence of like a legitimate, compassionate response to that, there's this vacuum where a guy like Jerry Kane can step into that and say, hey, I've got the answer.

Like, you don't have to pay that.

You know, you don't have to, you know, and that's an empowering message, I think, for a lot of people.

Especially people without money or extremely desperate.

Yeah.

So I think to kind of laugh at them is like, you know, and then I do think mental health is a real component to some of it.

You know, I think like that guy, the QAnon shaman who was like storming the capital or whatever.

I mean, I think that guy had legitimate.

But now he's so surprised.

Trump is turning on them.

He's so shocked and so upset.

But I feel like that's it.

That's a trigger.

That's like a

function of the Saab Sit movement because it's like that when they then present this series of arcane, sort of like fake version of reality yeah to reality reality oftentimes smashes their windows and drags them from a non-moving car and hogties them and throws them back and then they're getting deloused and that's only like literally increasing their agitation with the system well that's the thing is you can't especially if there is a mental health component if somebody's in in that state and you apply more pressure that doesn't break them out of it it's not like you can shake them out of it that just sends them further down into a spiral of some kind.

And, and, um, and so I think

we also with the film wanted to just look at the reality of that.

And, uh, and so we, we really, even though it's a political subject matter and it's kind of a wacky subject in a lot of ways, like we really wanted to try to look at, like, okay, what's the reality of the people that are drawn to stuff like this?

And, and what does this feel like from their perspective?

Well, as a viewer, you kind of put me there because in the very beginning, I'm like, this motherfucker's making some points.

You know, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like,

I'm like, I'm like, I'm about to go to one of these meetings and it's holiday in.

You know, and then,

you know, as time goes on, you're like, obviously this is wrong.

You know, you're waiting for it to break.

But like, you know,

how much of these guys that you've met and you've worked with or whatever and you've studied, is it always mental health or is it desperation?

Like, like kind of like...

You know, I...

I have to say most that are like the guru types that are really online online and really bought in.

I do think in most cases I've seen there's some sort of a mental health issue.

I don't know if that tips into like mental illness.

It could be maybe just a personality, you know, eccentricity.

Yeah.

But, but I think that, I think that.

Some of the guys that I've met, like, it's almost, this is a weird analogy, but almost like LARPing in a way.

Like, no, no, we talk about it all the time.

QAnon's a LARP that went from the internet that jumped to real life.

They're like guys that like just get really into stuff and it's almost like when you're at a Magic the Gathering

and people are talking about that or any other kind of subculture that somebody gets into.

If you start to get a reputation for being the expert at that and you kind of have street cred for that, there's a community and there's self-esteem that comes with that.

And so I think that's a big component of it as well.

But I think what you were saying earlier, like the, the, the reach for community and feeling empowered and important and like you have some kind of agency is is i think the driver of a lot of this stuff and then i i do think mental health is also part of it because they are giant seem they seem to be specifically pitted against giant unmovable structures within american society it's like the irs the bank system the literal constitution of the united states of america and they're like it's such a big epic battle it's a big epic thing that yeah i feel like we you know you know when a housewife discovers discovers methamphetamine at like 45?

Like it feels like that.

It's like, it's adding this amazing, like Tolkien-esque like fantasy structure to your life.

Oh, yeah, absolutely.

I mean, I think, I, I think part of it also is like you see in some of these bigger confrontations that make the news, like the, the canes or any of the videos you see where one of them finally goes to the federal building and takes a stand, you know, it never ends well for them.

They always, and, but what I saw in meeting a lot of them is they're kind of working up the courage to test that theory in real life a lot of times.

You know, it's a long path to kind of, that's why Jerry's character in the film and in the research of him, like cowardice was such a big part of what he was trying to overcome.

You know, he talked about his father being a coward and he talked about, you know, and

so I think the ones that do kind of step forward with this and try to test those theories, they see themselves as like being brave in that sense.

Did you like, all right, so I'll know that when we've ever covered the subject.

What I also love about Sovsets is that it's a kaleidoscope of different approaches to the topic.

And one thing I do know is that sovereign citizen's a slur in their world, right?

They don't like it.

It's become that, yeah.

Yes, they don't like the term sovereign citizen.

But isn't that what they call themselves?

No, now it's either you're

private nation, right?

The member of a private nation.

There's like dozens of different

terms that I've heard.

Have you yet received your

um, well, actually

pick apart like approach from a sovereign citizen?

Has someone watched the movie and be like, let me tell you where you got what you got wrong, what you, what you did wrong?

Yeah, it was it was a little bit sort of freaky, but we had a screening of the film, and after the screening had a Q ⁇ A.

And then I went home and a friend of mine sent me a link and was like, oh, there's a picture of you from the Q ⁇ A.

And there was a sovereign citizen who was first row at the QA and said, I went and saw this film.

And actually,

you know, these guys were wrong because they didn't follow the right program.

And here's why my program's different.

And I appreciate that.

I mean, you know, it was civil, but he, you know, his take on it was Jerry's, Jerry did not know the correct language.

And that's why he was not successful.

But there is a program out there that does have the correct language.

Are you worried that some people are going to see this movie and think Jerry's a hero?

Yeah, I

but

you know, I think I think the thing is that it happened.

You know, it's a, I do, I'm concerned about that.

I'm concerned about how do the families, how will, how are they going to react to this?

You know, how, how are people going to interpret this?

But that's the complexity of the real world we're living in.

It's an event that happened.

You know, unfortunately,

the bad things that happened, we can't go back and change those.

But I think taking an honest look at it, even if it's difficult or complicated to look at, is a step towards trying to understand it and maybe prevent it in the future.

Trevor Burrus, Jr.: It seems like it's incredibly accurate.

We tried to be as sort of honest about it

in

all aspects of the approach.

We tried to be sort of as objective about it as possible without editorializing too much.

And how were you able to keep the son's story accurate?

That storyline,

you know,

there's not a ton of information online about him because he was a minor, but we do know.

But he was the one that technically killed the police officers.

Yes, he was.

And,

you know,

there was a lot of information online about Jerry Kane and about this crime specifically.

So there were police records, there were the videos online.

There were actually some case studies, academic papers that were written about this crime as a case study in extremism, really.

But the

details of

their

relationship, really the father-son, that's artistic license.

It was just trying to put...

That was part of it that I felt like with my experience in my personal life, knowing someone who had gone through this, I felt like I had a unique perspective to maybe write that son character in a way that would feel honest.

I think what you did very well in the film is that idea, kind of what you were saying, like Eddie was joking right before we were recording is that he was watching it with

this cuff.

i get this huge this is the worst cuff choice for an interview i think i've had this is a bad this is a bad two foot pink straw i'm doing my best what

this is a very serious subject i needed to be caffeinated all right that's how it is i brought a log straw because it's fun it's fun for me all right it's better than an ak-47 yes now let's continue i

but

eddie was sitting with his wife they're watching the movie and his wife lovely woman absolutely absolutely one of the most empathetic, kind women you've ever met in your life.

And she was like, he's got a lot of points immediately up top.

Like, pause it and be like, listen, I have, you know,

then he explained quantum grammar.

But there is a, what you did great in the movie is that, where it starts with the, like, that's an aggrieved man.

We can now see, and that, yeah, of course.

We, we see all the things laid out up top.

His wife was dead in childbirth.

Uh, he is upset about the world in general.

He's been screwed by the IRS.

Who hasn't?

Yeah.

Right.

Who hasn't been fucked with by insurance companies?

Because the whole time I'm like, fuck the IRS, fuck the banks.

You know, I'm with you.

But you do a really good idea of that because that's what it is.

The Sav Sit specifics,

the specific, I guess, goal is to work yourself up to trying the stuff in an applicable environment.

Yes.

Right.

Like, that's kind of the whole thing.

There's no point to being a sovereign citizen unless you have an engagement with a police officer, correct?

Yeah.

Right.

Like, because there's really nothing else you get out of it.

It's just about how to get out of being arrested, ostensibly for the most part.

But it's, can't they see that, like, what they do great at what you did good, great for the movie was through the son's character of him starting to realize in those moments of like, oh, dad might be really

incorrect

about this.

Now, have you heard from people?

Now, have you talked to people that have hit that wall and have walked away?

Or have you talked to people like, like, what is it you think that makes them hit that wall and sometimes double down?

I, in my experience and in the people that I've met and known, that confrontation almost always leads to doubling down.

I've never seen somebody get hit, you know, like the police break the windshield and then somebody walk away afterwards and say, well, I tested that theory.

It didn't work out.

It didn't work.

Yeah.

You know, or, oh, shoot, they just took my house.

That didn't work out.

You know,

no, in most cases, I've seen that lead to a doubling down.

It's kind of like what happens to these doomsday cults, you know, when the clock strikes and the world doesn't evaporate or whatever.

They don't just pack it up and go back to their lives.

They usually have a reason why they, it's still coming and it's still right.

You know, I think once you're locked into that thought system, it's very hard to escape.

Just, it's so fascinating to me because there's like, like, with other cults, like I think even calling it a cult is, is hard, right?

Because it's not.

It's like a, it's like a series of almost like get

rich, quick, almost schemes that you apply to, but it's for legal things.

Leaders pop up, like Jerry.

Yeah.

But why does, do you feel like maybe it's because like in Scientology, in the end,

you will never know.

You'll die, right?

Like when you're dead, we don't know what's going to happen.

We know for a fact you probably don't know jack shit.

You don't know if you're going to go to Zenu and if it's all going to hold out.

Like, so you don't experience the payoff, right?

Ever.

So you're always just kind of training for the next life.

That's one thing about sovereign citizens.

They want you to experience that thrill right now.

And

what I find interesting about sovereign citizens is that they're always like, how do they get everything?

Like in the first place, if they don't believe in money and they don't believe in all this stuff, like how do they get a car?

How do they get a house?

You know, where do they get their, you know, like, it's, it's very bizarre to me.

They naturally existed there before.

You don't understand Eddie.

They naturally existed there before as cars.

As we all know, cars are naturally harvested and grown under the ground.

They're certainly not made by a bunch of different companies and systems.

Yeah, I mean,

I think it's...

It's that evolution from, you know, in the case of Jerry Kane, he was a roofer.

He was a truck driver.

He was a guy that was, in trouble in a lot of different ways.

But he actually had skills that applied to real life that actually could be very lucrative and helpful.

Yeah.

And I think that a precursor to a lot of this is being rejected from a lot of those things, being fired, or maybe you're not very good at your job, or maybe you have some sort of defiance disorder and you can't really have a boss.

I think there's a the drive that I've seen from a lot of people that are in this movement specifically, though, is this feeling of like powerlessness.

You know, feeling like if you had a boss hating having a boss, you know,

like he's, I'm my own boss.

I hate me.

I fucking hate me.

I have multiple friends who are very smart, very talented, and are doing fucking nothing with their lives because they have this defiance disorder.

I never heard of it called, never heard it called that before, but I'm like my mind, I'm just like thought of three guys.

And I'm like, these guys, they need to get this under control.

what what is that i mean i i i'm not a psychiatrist to know but i but i think that um

i i think that's like yeah people chafe under how nobody likes having a boss yeah i think some people just cannot tolerate it at all if somebody tells them to do one thing they flip out and i think it's it's you know that's a complex

psychological you know stew or makeup that that leads to something like that but i think a lot of this comes from that place in some ways did jerry kane hold those those meetings?

Like, was he the leader of those meetings?

Was that a real thing that happened?

Yeah, yeah.

So a lot of those speeches were really verbatim from his seminars.

He had these seminars, and

you can see them online.

And

so it was great because a lot of the language that's used in the film is directly stuff from his speeches.

Dude,

when he said, I'm traveling, my wife and I cheered, man.

It was like, we're like, he said it.

He said it.

And then, like, all day since we've watched the movie, my my wife and I are walking around going, it's a straw man.

How did you find the BG for that?

That's great.

They're great.

That was wonderful.

The lady in that scene with Nick Offerman was like, we talked about it.

We've seen, we've talked to her like five times.

I know that lady.

Yeah.

They were all Arkansas locals.

I mean, we shot in Northwest Arkansas.

And

the stories that you hear, like, when

Nick or Jerry in that first meeting is going around and asking people, you know, what their background is, Those are real stories from those people.

Oh.

There were, you know, yeah, they were that the woman he's speaking to, she was denied her insurance and the other guy is, his apartment burnt down and, you know, he was kicked out by his landlord.

All these stories that,

you know, draw people to those movements, those were actual real stories.

And people that I wouldn't say they're sovereign citizens, none of them were, but I think they could certainly agree with some of the anti-establishment views that he was preaching.

I'm looking at at this picture of Jerry Kane.

I did not know that he was the big bopper.

Wow.

Eddie, you look

just like him.

Yeah, I do.

I do.

Nick did a great job, but you could have talked to me.

Wow.

Can I actually, when you're doing, when you're working with Nick Offerman, obviously, Nick Offerman played probably the most famous libertarian character of all time in Barks and Rec, Ron Swanson.

When they were, when you're doing that with him, did you ever have any conversations about like,

this is a Ron Swanson, like, because he definitely, like, there were shades.

Like, I saw shades of it in it.

But you could kind of tell, like, he must have made a decision being like, this is a deadlier version of Ron Swanson.

Like, this is like something else.

Like, did you have conversations about like that when it came to performance?

You know, it's funny.

Like,

I think I had the benefit.

I love Parks and Wreck now,

but I wasn't introduced to Nick through Parks and Wreck primarily.

I had actually seen him first in this in this series Devs that Alex Garland did.

And so,

and I mean, I had been aware of him as an actor long before that, but when I really became like a big fan of him as a dramatic actor, it was in that series.

And so, and I think because of that and because we had the real story and videos of the real character,

I kind of, the Ron Swanson of it was, was definitely like a meta layer, but it was a layer that I kind of only became aware of after we finished the film, which sounds completely naive.

No, I mean more about like if you had to watch Nick Offerman, because I also wonder if he brought that up at all.

Yeah, I mean, I think he must have been aware, certainly, on some level of it.

But

I think in his performance, the thing, I mean, Nick is an incredible artist.

He's like the best, and he's the best person to work with.

I hit the lottery on my cast in this film.

You have, this is a deep-ass cast.

It's a great cast.

For first movie?

Yeah.

Dennis Quaid.

Yeah, he's great.

He crushed this movie.

Yeah.

And Jacob Trembly, he's like the go-to sad kid.

He's very good at being sad.

No, I mean, for a first-time filmmaker to get the trust of actors like that to do an independent film is unheard of.

So it was, it's fantastic.

But

yeah, I mean, Nick's, it's funny because in Nick's performance, he's so warm naturally and he's so funny that when you put him in front of a crowd of people, like in those seminars, in between takes, you know, he was doing his comedy.

I mean, everybody was screaming, laughing.

And so we'd go into these takes and you'd have to be like, remind him, like, Nick,

you look down on these people.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

You're taking from them.

Yeah.

Stop being so likable in between takes, please.

Yeah, take the warmth down, please.

Yeah, Jerry Kane probably would have done much better

if he was you.

True.

You wonder if that actually can even...

Look, we better not educate him too much.

Because I think one of the big issues truly with the sovereign citizen movement is because they genuinely don't have a charismatic center.

Like every single one of these guys that seemed to sort of step up to be the new center either flames out, gets themselves murdered, or they're just, they don't got that X factor.

I mean, I think...

I think because they live in the world of this legalese jargon and there's so many other guys that are out there gunning for them with jargon that the conversation just becomes really boring at a certain point for most people.

That's what happened to me.

You know, if you're arguing about an affidavit of truth versus a, you know, a negative averment versus a, you know, people tune out at a certain point if you're not completely dialed into that.

Yeah.

Henry said.

And like me,

I'm dialed all the way in.

Yeah, you sent me like this three-hour speech from this guy in Hawaii.

It was the quantum, that was the quantum grammar stuff.

Yeah.

Because quantum grammar is my favorite stuff.

I love the, you're not a, you're not your corporate entity.

I've nothing like the concept of because they put your name in all capital letters on your birth certificate means that you're not able to be governed is amazing.

What a great idea.

God.

Who are you?

Are we in front of the legal

Christian swank?

Like, is it?

Or is this the soul?

I know.

It's kind of heartbreaking when you see those interactions with police, especially.

And they're finally like, yeah, who are we dealing with?

Is this the straw man right now?

Or what?

And it's just like, well, it seems like the straw man's in here, too.

Also, what you did, I thought was really cool is that sometimes in the dialogue, you'll say a thing that was like a blanket.

Like, one thing that struck out to me was stuck out to me was Nick Offerman saying, All you have to do is show up to the sun.

And it's like, that's all you got to be.

Your superstar.

Yeah.

If you show up.

And that to me is the real hook.

Yeah.

That's like the whole thing.

That's kind of what the magna thing's doing too, just being like, you mean, like, you're one of the lucky few who get it.

Yeah, no, absolutely.

I mean, that was, that's the appeal of these, of these movements, I think.

You know, the scene with Martha Plimpton where he's sort of helping her overcome her fear.

Or, you know, that, that, it's, he, I do think what these guys have is that courage thing.

It's an empowering thing to people of like, you're not just, you know, a normal person who can't pay their bills.

You're a special sovereign ruler.

You know, I mean, it's, it's an, it's like a very attractive message to hear and it's really, it's an empowering message.

And it seems to get them laid.

Yeah.

Sovereign citizens always kind of have like a weird sovereign citizen girlfriend.

They always got like a weird girlfriend or a boyfriend or they got a guy on the phone and they're calling himself.

It's actually kind of nice.

It always, and then you did a great job as like, because that was the moment

in the movie where I was like, oh, he's a scumbag.

You know, like, it was like, that was the exact moment where I was like, oh, this guy had redeemable qualities or like he might believe what he's talking about.

But when they go to the casino, I mean, it's all out the window at this point.

It's like, oh, he's a manipulative scumbag who's just stealing, you know, and it was that really, as someone who like.

My mom could have easily become a sovereign citizen.

She had a gambling addiction.

She was very desperate, always needed money, making the wrong wrong turns, getting into like

gambling anonymous meetings where she would meet all these unsavory characters and I had to be like, that person's not making any fucking sense.

You know, and so it's just like, I kept seeing like that.

Martha Plimpton character, I kept seeing my mother in that.

And it was really hard for me like at times because I see her like empty her bank account and like, all right, where's she getting the rest of that money?

It's probably some fucking son or some other, like someone who's like funding all this shit.

That's a lady who's abandoned her family to come join him.

Yeah, yeah.

And I think these, these, you know, charismatic leader types, they, you know, they justify all of that because it's, it's for the mission.

You know, it's, he's, he's got to keep spreading the word.

He's got to keep doing her thing.

You know, nothing's more important than that.

So if somebody like a Leslie Ann, you know, needs to be sacrificed to that, that's, that's not a problem either.

See, but if they don't believe in money, how do they justify taking it from people?

That's a

that's a level.

down,

it's a whole thing.

Because then we kept saying, like, all right, so you don't believe in roads,

you don't believe in the concept of names, like, how are we going to have a remotely sane conversation?

Yeah, I don't.

I mean, it's, it's, it's kind of like when you see these, you know, religious offshoots that use different religious texts as sort of the basis of their movements.

I think it's like sovereign citizens have done that with the U.S.

Constitution or our set of laws.

And each of these guys have their own interpretation of this stuff.

I mean, that was one of the things that was fascinating to me is like you had said earlier, like this kaleidoscope

way that people get into the movement.

It wasn't sort of like politically dogmatic from what I found.

It was like you'd have these Earth Mother types that became sovereign citizens, or you'd have, you know, these libertarian types.

I mean, it was sort of a, you know, there's Moorish sovereign citizens.

Those guys actually make me the saddest.

The Moorish sovereign citizens, where it's just like, it's just even worse.

It's like more of a way for black people to be on a collision course with the police for no fucking reason.

Like it's a, it's so devastating.

Well, I think, I don't know if Wesley Snipes was involved.

And, you know, even his tax stuff was kind of sovereign citizen adjacent.

I think his tax problems and it's, it feels like.

A lot of people from different walks of life definitely find their way to this strangely.

So what do you, so have, have now that you're this deeply ensconced, what are you teaching?

What is your sovereign citizen flavor?

Oh, man.

Yeah.

I mean, the...

Can you, are you ready to take on new patients?

Can you call them patients?

I think I'll have to.

Yeah.

It's the...

Like all the different lingo and all the different legalese is pretty dizzying.

Yes.

How's your algorithm?

How's your YouTube algorithm?

I think we have the same YouTube algorithm at this point.

Probably, yeah.

I just watch hours of them rambling, dude.

Oh, man.

Yeah.

All day long.

Why do you like it so much?

You know what it is?

Is that I wish I had the courage to be in that level of denial.

I wish that I had the courage to just like.

Fuck what reality's telling me, fuck what my family's telling me.

I am right.

I'm really good at ignoring male.

So I take that part of it seriously.

How do you feel about the ironic embracement of the Martin Heemeyer and the Killdozer storyline?

Like, now I feel like one thing that we're kind of at crossroads at, do you know the story?

I'm not aware of Kill Dozer?

So I've been in like a cave for the past months finishing the film.

Thankfully.

I feel like I haven't seen anything.

Thankfully, this is an old story.

Martin Heemeyer was in a land dispute with the state.

Oh, no, I am aware of that.

You know the story.

So he built, he retrofitted an old

piece of construction equipment into this gigantic, indestructible machine called, he called the killdozer.

He didn't kill anybody.

He did $7 million

in private property damage, and then he committed suicide.

But a lot of us, including me, have been sort of ironically celebrating Marvin Heemeier and celebrating his tapes where he said, quote, sometimes the world drives reasonable men to do unreasonable things, right?

Like, which is now, but on one hand, I like this idea of creating some form of civil disobedience that we can get behind because obviously it feels like our country is heading towards some form of crossroads.

And I think that at some point we're going to be doing some giant inaction, massive group strike.

I don't know when we're going to do that.

It seems like we have a sovereign president right now.

It does.

But like, do you think shit like this is a slippery slope to sovereign citizen like worship?

Like this idea of like, I just like, the killdos are just a great idea.

I do remember this.

Yeah, I mean, it's all this, it's all the same thing in a way, you know, it's, it's this people, I, you know, even though I think people think like sovereign citizen, it's like a political slant to it, but, but it's really, it's about people versus systems, you know, it's people versus the man in a lot of ways.

And, and yeah, I mean, these guys, these guys pop up, and

I don't know.

I, I, I, I think, I think it's, it's something that needs to be addressed.

I think there's inequality and inequity and

nobody likes banks.

Nobody likes their health insurance.

Nobody likes,

I live in Altadena.

Our neighborhood was just burnt.

Now all the predators are coming to come and poach all the land.

And like they said, it wasn't going to happen.

Yeah.

And it happens.

Of course.

And then if you rage against that, then you're some kind of lunatic or something.

I mean, I'm seeing our whole neighborhood just get completely gobbled up by these private funds, and you know, they haven't approved any permits, apparently.

And you know, and then my neighbors are out living in some of them in hotels still, like people in their 70s and 80s that have like second, third generation.

Oh, yeah.

People had to give up their animals, their dogs, because they had to go live somewhere where they wouldn't take them.

And then you got fucking Stephen Miller coming out and saying that if we had a decent mayor, it'd all be rebuilt by now.

It's like, oh, decades of construction should be rebuilt in a matter of months.

Yeah.

You know, it's like, so it's crazy.

Sounds like we're driving people crazy yeah and i think like you i look at you know if if somebody came along and said like hey you can fight these developers that are coming in here and you don't have to pay this thing you know i i guess it's like yeah these guys like we could we could push back against this

next move you gotta make my mlms

are you what do you after this it's like do you leave all this behind like when you're when you're doing all like at the end of this you definitely got some shit off your chest yeah like but what do you do?

Like, like,

like, what's next?

Do you feel like this is going to follow you?

These sovereign people are going to follow you?

Do you want to be able to do that?

Oh, man, I hope not.

You know, like,

I don't know.

I mean, I definitely feel like, you know, this was an independent film, and

I feel like it's such an interesting time to make films in this country right now.

There's so much.

I'm not going for it.

Yeah.

Like, there's so much to talk about.

If you're a filmmaker, there's no shortage of material to dig into.

And

I think, if people can learn about small films like this, like, I think there's an audience for people that want to see films that reflect kind of the craziness of the time we're living in, you know?

And I think there's no shortage of stuff to sort of move on to from here.

No, and I'm glad that it's not mean like you didn't have to put a talk a dog in it.

You know what I mean?

You didn't have to do any of that stuff.

You could have, and we were just like, ah, he's crazy.

He's imagining.

That's what he likes.

That's what he likes.

No, there was a dog and it lived.

And it lived.

I'll let you know just so you know before you're all upset.

Yeah, the dog lives.

The dog lives.

None of the people do.

But you know, if you knew the story ahead of time, you'd know that for a fact.

What is Craig like?

He's great, actually.

Yeah, I mean, he's very like,

he's been doing this for so long, I think, that like...

He's so dot, like, there wasn't a lot of back and forth about what he was going to do.

He just, he knew what he wanted to do.

He came in and did it.

But then there were a couple times where, like, we had to to shoot that, you know, a couple big scenes in no time.

And anytime there was pressure where I'd say, Dennis, we have to do this.

We have like one take.

He was like, all right, let's go.

Like he like lit up.

Yeah.

So I, you know, it was, he was, he was fantastic to work with as a, you know, as a director.

When you're like new to directing, does it help or hurt to have those types of highly

experienced people there?

I think I've heard stories of it not being great.

I was on a set once where a man by the name of John Taturo didn't believe that what the director was doing, which makes sense, right?

Yeah.

And he just took, he just took over the process.

And I'm like, John Taturo could tell me to do whatever he wants to me.

I can't care what he says.

You know, like, they're all like, he lost total control of the set.

And it's just like, well, you know, it's John Taturo what are you going to tell?

He has directed some films.

And he was very, he was right.

Yes.

Yeah.

He actually was correct.

Yeah.

That's, I mean, that's the scary part.

Like, that was my biggest concern.

That was my biggest fear going into this is like, I have this incredible cast.

Is anybody going to listen to anything I have to say?

But they, they were the best.

I mean, they, they really, I think, embraced the first-time director thing.

And they were like, took me under their wing and they were like, we're going to do this together.

This is fantastic.

And I think it started with Nick.

I mean, Nick Offerman set the tone.

He was number one on the call sheet.

And he, him and Jacob then, I mean, they really set the tone for we're all doing this collaboratively.

Yeah.

And Jacob's been in some huge movies, obviously.

But if you don't remember, he was the little kid from Room.

Yeah.

So he understands this pacing of a small, scary

drama, you know, and like, I think he really did a great job.

Yeah.

I loved everything.

I loved all of his choices.

I felt like I knew him.

Like I grew up with those type of kids, just poor, trying to be good.

And just like, and that there's no chance because of the parents they have.

Yeah.

No, Jacob was incredible.

Can you immediately do the comedy version with Nick Offerman and just call it Sav Zits?

And it's all about him teaching a pro-co.

He's going to help his son lose his virginity to, I guess, to a senator, to Nancy Pelosi.

There is a comedy version of this type of thing.

Oh, no, I've been rolling it around in my head because, again, since the quantum grammar stuff,

I can't let that go.

Like the idea of like, just the idea.

I wish, don't we all wish that there was some magical formula that would release us from all obligations and

all accountability?

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, if it were that easy, yeah.

Yeah, I mean, all you really got to do is be a music producer or, you know, be an interconnected billionaire with, you know, either working for the Mossad or working for the CIA all at once.

You know what I mean?

By the name of Jeffrey Epstein.

That's all you really got to do to get away with it all, you know?

And that's the key.

That's the real key.

Make yourself really important to P.

Diddy.

Yeah.

Really get out there.

You know, your movie, obviously, very important.

I think it's definitely, it's definitely covering something that people don't talk about.

People don't like talking about we've met people like this in our lives we have like family members we don't like talking about you know that's what this movie like reminds me of and

it didn't get a wide release i really wish it would have gotten a wider release because i think it really would have done well seems to be doing well on apple it was in top 10 when i i purchased it yesterday yeah and it seems like it's doing well in apple so please go watch this film go rent this movie rent the movie i span i rented rented that dang movie.

We need to support independent film.

I took the extra five and I bought it.

I'm better than you.

You know what the funny part is?

I'm going to expense it and he's going to end up paying for it anyway.

Fuck you.

I fuck.

Money's not real.

Money's not real.

But no, I agree.

We're here.

Like, we all about independent movies because this is the way forward.

They all can't be Superman 9.

Especially now when our industry is like crippling around us,

it is the time for independent film and it really needs to be nurtured now more than ever.

And I think your film is beautifully shot.

I think you really did a great because you've done cinematography work before, right?

I have, yeah.

I had a, I mean, I worked with a brilliant cinematographer on this, but, but we had a, um,

yeah, it, it's everybody, every department, I think, was just, you know, really bought into trying to make something special and like boutique.

And even though it it was small, just really trying to make something great.

And also, just how was it filming in the middle of nowhere?

I have to say, Arkansas was awesome.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, everybody was so friendly.

We had the support of everyone.

You know, they're not jaded to a movie coming to town.

They're not like, oh, you know, wanting to know.

They were just very excited that a movie was there.

So all of our locations were, you know, we could, we pretty much could do what we wanted there.

It was a great place.

But, but the weather was awful to shoot because it swung so wildly.

And like the big climax at the end of the film, we were supposed to have a couple days for that and we had to shoot it in one day because we had lightning strikes that shut up.

That's impossible.

That's such a complex

with the crowds.

It's like easy and talking.

And also for an independent production, like as an independent production, great action scenes.

Thank you.

The ending was like, that was fucked up.

Yeah.

And from watching the footage afterwards, incredibly accurate.

Yeah, yeah.

We tried to stay.

I mean, that's just, our crew was just grinding.

I mean, we just, everybody was carrying cables and flying and shaking the van and throwing rubber glass.

And it was nuts.

Yeah, it was like film school.

So make sure you go reach out to your independent filmmakers, all right?

Because they need you.

They're scared.

All right.

And they need help.

They need support.

They need their own sovereign citizen movement.

Can I ask, how much was the budget for this?

Our budget was around $4 million.

Great.

Okay.

And we had below the line.

I'm not sure what it was.

It was much less than that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I knew it was an independent film, obviously, because it has that energy.

But then I got confused.

This is just like a Hollywood question.

I see Universal right up top.

So are they, they're just the distributor, basically?

Yeah.

So what happens is we, we did the movie independently.

We have a U.S.

distribution company called Briarcliff that handled our theatrical distribution, which was a couple, you know, I think we were in 50 screens or something.

And then they partnered with Universal for home video.

So they basically released the movie, you know um i'm not sure exactly how that partnership works but it was my understanding is it was a home video partnership okay cool yeah yeah because i was surprised i'm like wait a second universal it's pretty cool to see the logo in front for me as a filmmaker i know

yeah i'm a universal yeah i'm a universal filmmaker yeah exactly you and jurassic world right now

well seriously go check out sovereign anywhere you can rent any film right like i got it on amazon myself yeah i got me out big bezos head big Bezos head.

Super happy for those ladies.

I'm a Wozniak boy.

But yeah, please rent the film.

Pay full money for it.

All right.

Because, yes, to most sovereign citizens, money isn't real.

But to these filmmakers, money is.

All right.

So make sure you do that.

All right.

But wow, thank you so much for being here with us, man.

Thank you guys.

This is awesome.

Christian, you put so much heart into this film and so much personal experience.

It deserves all the love it can get.

And I really hope it does well come award season and people like still give it the love it deserves because it was fucking awesome.

Thank you so much, really.

It's an honor to be here.

Thank you.

Of course, dude.

So go check out Sovereign.

And don't

act like the first half is a

just

get past it.

Okay?

Because it's not right.

He's not correct.

But write down the ideas you like.

Tell me the ideas are

good beginner ideas.

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