Rural hospitals were already short-staffed. Then came Trump's H-1B visa fee

Speaker 1 This podcast is supported by Odoo. Some say Odoo business management software is like fertilizer for businesses because the simple, efficient software promotes growth.

Speaker 1 Others say Odoo is like a magic beanstalk because it scales with you and is magically affordable.

Speaker 1 And some describe Odoo's programs for manufacturing, accounting, and more as building blocks for creating a custom software suite. So Odo is fertilizer, magic beanstock building blocks for business.

Speaker 1 Odoo, exactly what businesses need. Sign up at odoo.com.
That's odoo.com.

Speaker 3 This marketplace podcast is supported by Wealth Enhancement, who understand that dreams don't happen by chance, it takes a plan.

Speaker 3 They're ready to build your wealth blueprint for retirement, investing, taxes, and everything else your financial life brings.

Speaker 3 It reveals gaps and highlights opportunities you may have missed at no cost to you. Find out more at wealthenhancement.com/slash blueprint.

Speaker 5 What do you like?

Speaker 2 Crypto? EVs? Fast casual dining?

Speaker 4 Because we got it all.

Speaker 2 From American Public Media. This is Marketplace

Speaker 2 in Los Angeles. I'm Kyle Risnall.
It is Tuesday, today, 18 November. Good as always to have you along, everybody.
Stocks go up, as we know, and they go down. Bonds, the same.

Speaker 2 The dollar and oil and gold, too. All of them, if not the actual economy, then very closely tied to it.

Speaker 2 And for most of this year, it had looked like cryptocurrency was making a play for the economic mainstream as well. The crypto exchange Coinbase joined the SP 500.

Speaker 2 Congress decided to let big banks play with stable coins. Even stalwart crypto holdout JPMorgan said it would let its clients use Bitcoin as loan collateral.

Speaker 2 And then reality started to bite. Bitcoin, as you know, the OG cryptocurrency, has lost about a quarter of its value since its record high back in October.

Speaker 2 The overall crypto market down about a trillion dollars.

Speaker 2 So, with crypto decidedly not on the upswing anymore, what happens now? Marketplaces Matt Levin gets us going.

Speaker 6 Longtime crypto investors like Lee Drogan at Starkiller Capital are used to watching crypto prices fall off a cliff.

Speaker 6 But he says this most recent nosedive was different because crypto had reached the top of the cliff like just a second ago.

Speaker 7 It's the ferocity of the reversion from a good momentum new high straight into basically a crash.

Speaker 6 Bitcoin true believers will tell you the cryptocurrency will ultimately become digital gold, a safe store of value against inflation and rising national debt.

Speaker 6 Well, we still have sticky inflation and a rising national debt, but right now investors are viewing Bitcoin less like gold and more like a risky tech stock.

Speaker 7 There are just, you know, a lot of different things coming together at the same time that are causing investors to be scared of risk assets in general, and crypto is the risk asset of all risk assets.

Speaker 6 For you non-crypto folks out there, I know what you're thinking. What do I care if a bunch of crypto bros lose their Lamborghini savings fund?

Speaker 6 Well, if your 401k is invested in an index fund that tracks the general stock market, you probably own some stock in crypto companies. Todd Baker is a lecturer at Columbia Law School.

Speaker 7 If there's a downturn in those parts of the markets, the equity markets, the crypto markets, there would be some knock-on effect on spending.

Speaker 6 And that could hurt the real economy. Baker also worries about new rules from the Trump administration allowing more banks and other financial actors to loan money for crypto.

Speaker 7 The question is contagion, and that involves who's providing leverage to whom in the overall system. And I think there's very little transparency to that when it comes to crypto.

Speaker 6 Even though prices might be down now, crypto enthusiasts say there will be more opportunities for everyday investors to get in on the action. Matt Hogan is at Bitwise Asset Management.

Speaker 7 I think it's going to be a crypto ETF palooza over the next year, right? The doors are open.

Speaker 6 An ETF is short for exchange traded fund, basically an easy way for investors not fluent in the blockchain to put their money in crypto. I'm Matt Levin for Marketplace.

Speaker 2 Bitcoin actually up about a half percent over the course of of the day. Equities, however, decidedly not.
We will have the details when we do the numbers.

Speaker 2 We pause now for a detour into the fast casual restaurant space. Jake Shack, Chipotle, those kinds of places.
There is a zillion of them. Maybe it's there are a zillion of them.
Don't know.

Speaker 2 But therein lies the challenge at the heart of this next story. Panera was once a fast casual darling.
Now it's just one of many. So it's going to do a makeover, a menu refresh in some new locations.

Speaker 2 This is not, however, the first time Panera's tried to switch things up. And last time, the changes didn't go so well.

Speaker 2 Marketplace's Kristen Schwab looks at the fall of Panera against the rise of increasingly fickle consumers.

Speaker 8 It's kind of hard to remember how much of a pioneer Panera was in the late 90s and early aughts.

Speaker 8 It defined fast casual dining, metal silverware, counter-to-table service, big comfy booths next to a fireplace.

Speaker 9 And they had a specific vibe to their restaurants.

Speaker 8 Robert Byrne at Technomics says it wasn't long before other restaurants copied.

Speaker 9 So other people get to come along and tweak your recipe for success.

Speaker 8 Panera's recipe is a dining experience that echoes a full-service restaurant. Panda Express and Chipotle's versions are more like elevated fast food.

Speaker 8 That difference became a weakness for Panera when inflation kicked in. Suddenly, people were not excited to pay more to dine next to a fireplace.
Steven Zagor is a restaurant consultant.

Speaker 10 Panera was transactional and not so transformational.

Speaker 8 Panera cut costs, and fans complained about shrinking portions, digital kiosks, and the disappearance of favorite menu items. High CEO turnover and lawsuits over its caffeinated beverages didn't help.

Speaker 8 Between 2023 and 24, sales fell 5%, according to Technomic.

Speaker 10 Their business eroded, and the challenge is not becoming wallpaper.

Speaker 8 Because when consumers are watching their wallets, each dining occasion is precious. So their mentality is kind of all or nothing.
They go grab a meal deal or a steak dinner.

Speaker 8 Lily Jan, a lecturer of food and beverage management at Cornell, says those dining experiences provide different value.

Speaker 9 Either it's the volume of food or it's the quality of food or it's the experience.

Speaker 8 The problem with Panera is it plays to the middle by design.

Speaker 8 That's something inherent to fast casual restaurants in general, and why chains like Kava and Sweet Green are also seeing customers pull back.

Speaker 9 I don't know of any one particular brand that's kind of like killing it, if you will, but the ones I find that have the strongest sense of self are doing better.

Speaker 8 Like for Raising canes, the focus is chicken, and for Jersey Mics, it's subs. Panera got lost in a sea of soup, salad, pizza, bagels, and of course, those controversial energy drinks.

Speaker 8 I'm Kristen Schwab for Marketplace.

Speaker 2 Electric vehicle vehicle sales in this country just had their best quarter ever because, as it turns out, incentives really do matter.

Speaker 2 People rushed to buy EVs before federal tax credits expired at the end of September, and there are now more of them on the roads than ever, more than 6.5 million.

Speaker 2 But incentives work the other way, too.

Speaker 2 And now that President Trump and Republicans in Congress have stripped away most of the regulations that had made making and buying EVs attractive, car makers aren't making as many, and in point of fact, you're making more cars and trucks with internal combustion engines.

Speaker 2 So, Marketplace's Henripp reports now on what happens to the EV market.

Speaker 5 Chris Bendel of Colchester, Vermont, just bought a new 2025 Chevy Equinox EV, and like a lot of brand new cars, it comes with plenty of features. Want a seat warmer? Sure.

Speaker 4 There's three levels.

Speaker 11 You can kind of just do whatever feels comfortable. Okay.

Speaker 5 He can also start it up remotely. There are tons of screens on the dashboard.
It's a big big upgrade from his last car, a 2014 Mazda CX-5, which he brought to his mechanic in late September.

Speaker 5 Turned out to be one of those visits to the repair shop.

Speaker 4 The guy was like, you got a lot of rust.

Speaker 11 You know, the car is okay. It had 90,000 miles.
But he's like, you know, in a few years, this is going to be pretty rusty.

Speaker 11 You know, I would say sell it now, trade it in, make it someone else's problem.

Speaker 5 This happened just a few days before the $7,500 federal tax credits for new EVs expired. Bendel had been been planning to make his next car an EV, so he decided to jump.

Speaker 5 He spent about $20,000 on the Chevy after the tax credit and a bunch of other discounts. He figures he'll save money in the long run.

Speaker 11 Because I have solar panels, because I charge at home, because I don't drive as much, I'm not spending any money on gas.

Speaker 5 In Exeter, New Hampshire, Amy Farnum recently bought an EV too. She assumed her next car would be a hybrid because they have better range than pure electrics.

Speaker 12 I have kids that play hockey, so that's a lot of driving around New England.

Speaker 5 But when she started to see the ranges on some of the newer models, I changed my mind.

Speaker 12 You think, why not?

Speaker 2 Why not go fully EV?

Speaker 5 She bought a used 2023 Nissan ARIA. It can go over 300 miles on a single charge.

Speaker 5 Amy Farnham, Chris Bendel, and thousands of other buyers are the reason why EV sales surged in the third quarter and are expected to decline in the short term.

Speaker 15 Because people move their purchases forward in time.

Speaker 5 Elaine Buckberg is a senior fellow at Harvard's Salada Institute for Climate and Sustainability. She's also the former chief economist at General Motors.

Speaker 5 With that pull forward of demand and the Trump administration's rollback of vehicle regulations, car makers have cooled on EVs.

Speaker 15 They're explicitly delaying when they're going to bring out new models or in some cases, pulling back models. So they're just not moving as ambitiously into the market.

Speaker 15 as they had been planning to six months ago.

Speaker 5 And they're planning to sell more gas cars, which for most companies are more profitable than EVs.

Speaker 15 And right now, they're looking at this landscape where they're facing multi-billion dollar tariff hits. So they really need to think about their profitability.

Speaker 5 But most auto industry leaders still say that the future of cars is electric, Buckberg says, for a few reasons.

Speaker 5 Big auto markets in other parts of the world have been transitioning to EVs faster than the U.S., especially China, especially now. And most auto companies are global.

Speaker 15 You know, the global market will continue to go EV, and automakers won't want to be making new internal combustion engine cars just for the U.S.

Speaker 5 And those emissions regulations in the U.S. might not be gone forever.

Speaker 17 The car companies, they know that it will come back.

Speaker 5 Gil Tal is director of the Electric Vehicle Research Center at UC Davis. Emissions regulations have swung back and forth depending on which party controls the White House.
So for car companies...

Speaker 17 I think that in the long run, they know that they need to find a balance. They cannot just go back to zero in any way.

Speaker 5 And they'll have to meet at least some consumer demand for EVs. Most, but not all, EV owners, Tal says, stay EV owners.

Speaker 5 Many of those drivers who just bought one before the tax credits ended will want another EV in a few years. Though Chris Bendel, the new Chevy Equinox owner, is on a longer timeline.

Speaker 5 He hopes his new car will last him 20 years.

Speaker 11 I'm going to try and take good care of this and drive it into the ground. And

Speaker 11 then in 20 years, who knows what we're going to be driving?

Speaker 5 Super EVs. Probably with even better seat warmers.
I'm Henry Epp for Marketplace.

Speaker 2 Bank of America had a report out today. A survey of more than a thousand small and mid-sized business owners.

Speaker 2 77% of them said their costs have increased this year, and 76% said they've had to raise prices as results. One of the big reasons, I bet you can guess.
Starts with a T, ends with Arif.

Speaker 2 Here's today's installment of our series, My Economy.

Speaker 12 My name's Allie Trela Jones, and my derby name is D Stortion, so everybody calls me D.

Speaker 12 My business is the Bruised Boutique Skate Shop, and we are in Nashua, New Hampshire.

Speaker 12 So my business business started from an

Speaker 12 idea that we should start a roller derby team in New Hampshire. And a friend came up to me at a 4th of July party and said, do you want to start a roller derby team?

Speaker 12 And I said, yeah, what's roller derby? And she brought me to a roller derby game. And I saw these incredible women whipping around the track.

Speaker 12 And I said, I don't know what this is, but I know I want to do this.

Speaker 12 So my team had no place that they could get roller derby equipment. I decided to put up a website and look into some different vendors where

Speaker 12 we could get some wheels and some of the smaller things that people couldn't get at their local skate shop.

Speaker 12 We ended up renting a 500 square foot brick and mortar shop in Nashua and the next year we were in a bigger space and this past year we ended up in a 3,000 square foot space.

Speaker 12 In the past couple years things have really changed. So you used to be able to get a pair of roller skates for around $100, and it's really up to almost double what they used to be.

Speaker 12 I would say the biggest reason our costs have changed is going to be the tariffs that were put in place, especially the ones that are from Canada or from China.

Speaker 12 A lot of the manufacturers who make beginner skates or beginner pads have a lot of materials that come from those areas.

Speaker 12 Even the handmade skates that we make that are very high-end and are manufactured in the U.S., they still get a lot of their parts from overseas.

Speaker 12 We've had to start thinking about taking out loans or getting more inventory, and we ended up amassing a lot more inventory than we usually have.

Speaker 12 This can be a little bit of a strain for a small business because when you have more inventory, that equals less cash in hand.

Speaker 12 Every day I literally say to myself, like, every day I'm like,

Speaker 12 how am I able to support myself? This seems like a weird fever dream. My husband and I are able to, you know, pay our mortgage.

Speaker 12 I don't know that we're financially set up to ever retire, but I think some of those things when you're a small business owner, you try not to think about in the future.

Speaker 12 You just try to go, this is something I'm passionate about. This is something I enjoy waking up every day and going to work and helping other people have fun.

Speaker 2 Ellie Trella Jones, Nashua, New Hampshire, the Bruised Boutique Skate Shop. She is still skating every day, by the by.

Speaker 2 You know, this series doesn't happen without your help, so let us know what's going on. Would you marketplace.org/slash mycon.

Speaker 4 Coming up.

Speaker 13 The fee is a non-starter for these employers.

Speaker 2 $100,000.

Speaker 2 But first, let's do the numbers.

Speaker 2 Dow Industrial is down 498 points today, 1%, 46,091. The NASDAQ down 275, 1.2%,

Speaker 2 22,432. The SP 500 dipped 55 points, 8 tenths percent, 66, and 17.
Kristen was telling us about the state-of-the-fast casual business.

Speaker 2 Cheesecake Factory's NASDAQ ticker is Cake, which is kind of elegant, I guess. The purveyor of avocado egg rolls and fried mac and cheese rose 1.4% today.

Speaker 2 The shake shack stock ticker is S-H-A-K, which could be interpreted as a hip misspelling of either shake or shack. It is also, though, kind of elegant.

Speaker 2 The purveyor of the sandwich is called ShakeStack and Chicken Check subtracted 8 tenths of 1%. Today you are listening to Marketplace.

Speaker 18 It's time for Black Friday, Dell Technologies' biggest sale of the year. That's right, you'll find huge savings on select Dell PCs like the Dell 16 Plus with Intel Core ultra-processors.

Speaker 18 And with built-in advanced AI features, it's the PC that helps you do more faster.

Speaker 18 From smarter multitasking to extended battery life, these PCs get the busy work done so you can focus on on what matters most to you.

Speaker 18 Plus, earn Dell rewards and enjoy many other benefits like free shipping, expert support, price match guarantee, and flexible financing options.

Speaker 18 They also have the biggest deals on accessories that pair perfectly with your Dell PC, improving the way you work, play, and connect.

Speaker 18 Whether you just started holiday shopping or you're finishing up, these PCs and accessories make perfect gifts for everyone on your list. Shop now at dell.com/slash deals and don't miss out.

Speaker 18 That's dell.com/slash deals.

Speaker 20 Since 2011, American Giant has been making everyday clothing with extraordinary effort. Not in far-off factories, but right here in the USA.

Speaker 20 We obsess over fabrics, fit, and details, because if you're going to wear it every day, it should feel great and last for years.

Speaker 20 From the cut of a hoodie to the finishing of a seam, nothing is overlooked. Our supply chain is tight-knit and local, which means less crisscrossing the country and more care in every step.

Speaker 20 The result is durable clothing, t-shirts, hoodies, sweatpants, and denim that become part of your life season after season.

Speaker 20 This isn't fast fashion, it's clothing made with purpose by people who care as much about how it's made as how it fits. Get 20% off your first order with code STAPLE20 at American-Giant.com.

Speaker 20 That's 20% off your first order at American-Giant.com with code STAPLE20.

Speaker 21 When your company works with PNC's corporate banking, you'll gain a smart and steady foundation to help you carry out all your bold ideas.

Speaker 21 But while your business might not be shaky, you might still experience shakiness in other ways. You might be outbid on the perfect summer house.

Speaker 21 Your kid might not attend your alma mater, or your yacht might be jostled by stormy waters.

Speaker 21 No amount of responsible banking can prevent these things, except maybe the yacht, because we tell you boats are generally a bad investment. PNC Bank, brilliantly boring since 1865.

Speaker 21 The PNC Financial Services Group Inc., All Rights Reserved.

Speaker 2 This is Marketplace. I'm Kai Rizdahl.

Speaker 2 We talked yesterday about the big home improvement retailers, how their earnings this week might be a decent proxy for how consumers are feeling as we wait for government data to start flowing again.

Speaker 2 Well, Home Depot reported this morning, not so great.

Speaker 2 Earnings last quarter fell short of expectations, and the company says sales growth and profits for the year are not going to be what they had thought they would be. Lowe's reports tomorrow.

Speaker 2 So Marketplace's Carla Javier spent her day looking into the state of home improvement improvement and what we might learn from it.

Speaker 16 One reason why Home Depot's results were underwhelming is that the housing market is kind of stuck, says Jamie Katz, a senior analyst at Morningstar.

Speaker 9 I think once you see more people putting their homes up for sale and more people buying homes that are put up for sale, you will, you know, in turn see more spend on home improvement.

Speaker 16 Home Depot also blamed its results in part on a third quarter that had fewer damaging storms than expected, which meant the retailers sold less plywood, roofing materials, and generators.

Speaker 16 Though Drew Redding at Bloomberg Intelligence says the real cloud hanging over the home improvement industry, like so many others, is consumer caution.

Speaker 22 When sentiment is weak, you're going to defer spending on discretionary items.

Speaker 22 And that's really what we're hearing from the home improvement retailers and the building product manufacturers, which supply them.

Speaker 22 is that consumers are taking a wait-and-see approach. They want to see how

Speaker 22 the economy shakes out. They want to see what happens with tariffs.

Speaker 16 In the meantime, Redding says homeowners are foregoing big-ticket renovations to focus on maintenance, repair, and smaller projects.

Speaker 22 You know, painting a room or fixing a water heater, fixing plumbing, updating maybe fixtures.

Speaker 22 While we're not talking about doing a full bathroom remodel, maybe we'll replace some of the plumbing, the toilet, the faucet, things like that.

Speaker 16 But Home Depot's results don't capture the whole picture of what's going on in the $600 billion home improvement industry, says Rachel Drew at Harvard's Joint Center for Housing Studies.

Speaker 9 Home Depot is serving a segment of the remodeling industry. They're generally serving homeowners who are working on do-it-yourself projects.

Speaker 16 Drew says the indicators she tracks, including potential buyers coming off the sidelines and increases in permits for larger projects, still point to slow but steady growth in home improvement going forward.

Speaker 16 I'm Carla Javier for Marketplace.

Speaker 2 It's not like it ever goes out of the news, but the healthcare system in this country is dealing with a lot right now.

Speaker 2 Affordable Care Act subsidies are set to expire, as you might have heard, a time or two. New Medicaid restrictions loom.

Speaker 2 Not to be forgotten, finding enough health care workers is difficult in the best of times.

Speaker 2 And it's gotten harder thanks to President Trump's new $100,000 fee on H-1B visas, which are used to bring highly skilled foreign workers into this economy.

Speaker 2 Fee used to be $5,000, by the way, or sometimes less.

Speaker 2 Those visas are usually used by technology companies, true, but they have become a critical pipeline for trained health workers taking hard-to-fill jobs in rural and low-income communities.

Speaker 2 Marketplace in Novos Afo has another story in our occasional series about immigration policy and America's workforce. We're calling it Help Not Wanted.

Speaker 19 Frederick Health Hospital is the only one in Frederick County, Maryland. Patients would have to travel as far as 50 miles to get to another hospital.

Speaker 14 We see about 70 to 80,000 emergency department visits. One of the busiest emergency departments in the state.

Speaker 19 That's Jamie White. She's the chief nursing officer at Frederick Health.
Not only is her hospital one of the busiest, it's also chronically short-staffed.

Speaker 19 White says it can't compete with the salaries at hospitals in urban areas or with jobs that allow for more work-life balance.

Speaker 14 If If I have a choice of working all night long on my feet for 12 hours, or I'm able to work in a clinic Monday through Friday, there's a lot of nurses that are choosing to do other things than working in a hospital.

Speaker 19 This year, Frederick Health finally decided to recruit from overseas. And just as foreign applicants accepted job offers, President Trump imposed the new $100,000 fee on H-1B visas.

Speaker 14 The expectation before the

Speaker 14 September change was to pay a fee of around $200 per nurse for the H-1B visas. But the $100,000, we can't afford paying that for one nurse.
So we will not be able to do this if that's the case.

Speaker 19 The 29 nurses Frederick Health was expecting right around this time of year are not coming. For now, White is relying on stopgap measures like more overtime.

Speaker 19 Similar scenarios are playing out across the country. Anne-Rose Johnson-Lewis is director of legal services at Worldwide Health Staff Solutions.

Speaker 19 The firm typically brings in 200 to 300 nurses a year through H-1Bs, mostly headed to the Midwest.

Speaker 13 The fee is the non-starter for these employers. They just simply cannot afford it.
It is not sustainable. So at the moment, H-1B for healthcare workers is at a standstill.

Speaker 19 There is another visa called EB-3 that's used to bring in nurses, but processing times for that visa can take several years. The H-1B is faster.

Speaker 19 There are a couple of lawsuits now challenging the new fee.

Speaker 13 A lot of employers are kind of just waiting to see what would happen with those lawsuits.

Speaker 19 Meanwhile, the new fee is not just limiting nurses. It's affecting doctors, surgeons, and a whole host of other healthcare workers.

Speaker 23 Physician assistants, nurse practitioners, nurse anesthetists, podiatrists, chiropractors, chiropractors, and optometrists.

Speaker 19 Micah Liu's list goes on from there. Liu is a clinical fellow in medicine at Brigham and Women's Hospital.

Speaker 19 He crunched government data on visa applications for an article in the Journal of the American Medical Association.

Speaker 19 Healthcare workers do make up a small percentage of each year's H-1B visa applications overall. But Liu found that within the healthcare system, H-1B visas play a critical role.

Speaker 23 The big takeaway there is that, you know, the most rural and impoverished communities depend much more heavily on H-1B sponsored physicians and healthcare workers than other communities.

Speaker 19 In fact, Liu found that health systems in rural areas brought in twice as many H-1B workers as urban ones.

Speaker 19 Janessa Graves, director of the University of Washington's Rural Health Research Center, says providers in hard-to-reach and sparsely populated areas are worried because the new H-1B fee could worsen access for patients.

Speaker 24 There is a persistent and ongoing workforce shortage, and that results in long waiting times for local care or lots of driving and a huge burden for patients who may not have transportation or the funds to get from point A to point B to the city to see a specialist.

Speaker 19 Graves says there's some hope that health care providers can apply for exemptions from the fee. That's what Frederick Health did.

Speaker 19 But it's unclear how long that process could take or if the Trump administration will grant those exemptions. I'm Novasafo for Marketplace.

Speaker 2 This final note on the way out today, courtesy of our friends at the Yale Budget Lab, they looked at President Trump's idea that maybe he would take all the tariff money the government's collected this year and give it back to people in the form of $2,000 checks.

Speaker 2 Again, and just because tariffs are taxes paid by American consumers and businesses, got to say that. Anyway, the Yale Budget Lab did the math.

Speaker 2 Giving $2,000 to every family making less than $100,000 a year in this economy would cost around $450 billion,

Speaker 2 basically using up all the tariff receipts for the year. Macroeconomically, very slight impact on on GDP and on inflation.

Speaker 2 Oh, and also because, you know, this is important, Congress would have to buy off on it.

Speaker 2 Jordan Manji, Zanil Maharaj, Janet Wynne, Olga Oxman, Virginia K. Smith, and Tony Wagner are the digital team.
And I'm Kai Rizdahl. We will see you tomorrow, everybody.

Speaker 2 This is APM.

Speaker 12 You've finally broken loose from work.

Speaker 6 Three friends, one tea time,

Speaker 12 and then the text. Honey, there's water in the basement.

Speaker 12 Not exactly how you pictured your Saturday. That's when you call us, Cincinnati Insurance.
We always answer the call because real protection means showing up, even when things are in the rough.

Speaker 12 Cincinnati Insurance, let us make your bad day better.

Speaker 12 Find an agent at cinfin.com.