477 - The Greatest Depression

This is exactly right.

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This ID documentary event features never-before-seen interviews from survivors who found the courage to expose her systematic abuse.

Ruby and Jody, a cult of sin and influence, premieres September 1st at 9 p.m.

Eastern on ID.

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Goodbye.

Hello, and welcome to my favorite murder.

That's Georgia Hardstar.

That's Karen Kilkara.

We're dressed for Easter.

I keep accidentally doing that.

Like dressing for holidays?

For Easter, specifically.

Oh.

I just think I have a lot of pastels in my wardrobe.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

You know?

I feel like Easter was a huge holiday in 1962.

Yeah, what did you guys do?

First of all, fuck you.

I was born in 1970.

That's not what I meant.

Wow, that would have been so shitty.

I was like, really?

What'd you guys do back there when you were married?

I was like, oh, I was like, people astronauts.

What you used to like to do for fun on Easter?

It was a bigger deal.

I think it still is, though.

I went to the park near my house and there were like three different camps like doing all the Easter cookout thing.

Right.

And hiding things.

I mean, separate from it being a religious holiday I do think it is the most fun second only to Halloween or Christmas obviously but like it's like a mid-spring fun thing for kids that I remember looking forward to it just because it had been like what are we going when's the next thing where we get to like have a kid time totally well that must have been nice for you christians uh yes god we christed around all and died eggs but we did it made me laugh because so the hospitars are the family we grew up next door to who we spend every holiday with.

And did, like, I have pictures of my uncle Steve with a cigarette in his hand pointing to where the eggs are hidden because I'm like three years old and just the youngest.

So we always did Easter together and we would go and dye eggs

like the night before in the barn, blah, blah, blah.

And my cousin Stevie did that with his daughters and Nora and whatever.

But of course, everyone's like, Nora's a senior.

Yeah.

His daughters are out of the house.

So my sister calls because they weren't going to do Easter because it was just a bunch of adults.

And my cousin Stevie called, my sister back and goes,

we have to do Easter.

And she was like, yeah, okay.

And he's like,

we're not going to not do it.

We have to keep doing it.

And she's like, okay, can I wear myself?

Just do it.

He's like getting through it.

It's like since 1972,

63.

Our families have gotten together and somehow been like, yes, today is the day.

Here's some eggs, kids.

Whatever.

It's funny because chocolate.

Same with Passover, which involves hiding something for the kids to find.

An egg, same thing.

It's like so clearly all these things.

But the difference is, and the reason we're not as excited about Passover is the hours it feels like of storytelling and like prayers and shit before you pray over the wine, you pray over the this, you pray over the that.

It's like, can we fucking eat?

Like everyone hates it.

But then the youngest gets some lines.

Yes, the youngest gets some lines.

And that's the day I was turned on to Judaism as a religion and a lifestyle.

As the youngest for a long time, it was pretty fucking, that's where I shine.

That must be why I'm so good at this.

It probably is.

Yeah, I'm a performer.

I'm a natural.

And did you know your lines or did you have to read them out of a book?

I read them because it looked very like studious.

Yes, that's right.

Very special and Jewish.

And you're like, these are all the things that I want.

Yeah, me.

This was about me.

Special and studious.

That is a really weird parallel, though.

I never thought about that.

But Passover is

Jewish Easter, essentially.

Or Easter's.

No, because Christian.

Passover came first.

That's right.

And full respect to you and yours.

Thanks for the idea.

Ours has a lot less bloodshed.

You have more candy.

It was the one son as opposed to any son.

Right.

All the sons.

Well, I'm wearing this because I think I unconsciously put it on because I'm listening to Miranda July's new book.

It's called All Fours.

Oh.

So I just cosplayed as her today completely on on accident.

Okay.

So here we are.

Do you like that book?

Yeah, I love the book.

She's an incredible writer, but it's one of those things where it's like, this is definitely going to get you depressed.

So like, are you ready to get in that headspace right now?

And I don't know what the answer is, but you're going to find out.

I will.

Midway.

Yeah.

So that's what I'm doing.

Have you heard, I can't believe we haven't talked about this.

About Valerie the Dachshund.

I thought you were going to talk about the corrections corner that we have.

No, I have not heard about Valerie the Dachshund.

Before we get to the bad stuff, let's just talk about the good stuff, which is kind of, it's good and bad.

Valerie the Dachshund went with her family on a trip in South Australia to Kangaroo Island.

They did some camping.

Okay.

Valerie got loose and it's been like 16 weeks and she keeps getting spotted, owning this fucking island, somehow surviving.

She won't come to anyone, but she's like taking over the island and thriving and surviving.

And basically doesn't want to be found.

I don't know.

It's like won't come to anyone.

And her owners are devastated but it's this kind of thing of like

man she's

she's like living free living the island life it's like pretty impressive she's just this like you know sporty little lowrider who's just tearing across is she like hanging out with kangaroos or is that just the name i don't know i don't know who she's hanging out with i don't know what she's eating or how she's surviving i don't know where she's sleeping but she doesn't look emaciated she looks like there's something going on or she's like made a pact with the other animals there and they're like they've taken her in you're gonna help me i'll be the personality hire.

It's me, it's me, the dachshund.

I'm Valerie.

I'll definitely make your party more fun.

I can't help you.

Valerie and HR are clean.

That is, I immediately pictured her for some reason standing on the edge of a cliff, wind blowing.

She looks like Elizabeth Barrett in pride and prejudice.

Exactly.

She's just like, finally, it's the life I wanted.

Domain, my kingdom.

I don't know.

She's like a hero for our ages.

Like, get the fuck, run away and fucking go live on an island.

Do what you want, Valerie.

And to all the Valerie the Dachshunds out there that are listening right now, girl, find your kangaroo island.

Get your kangaroo island, whatever it is.

And run around on it.

And live on it.

Don't come back for any call or text.

No, no, no.

It's so like cookie, you'd go tweet, tweet, and she'd be at your fucking feet in two seconds.

Yeah.

Maybe.

Maybe.

That just reminded me.

This morning, Blossom was barking like a lunatic, which I'm like, is this your new thing in the morning?

I looked over.

There was a puppy coyote trying to come up onto the patio.

And I ran over to make sure.

And there were four other ones.

Like grown ones or puppies.

Puppies.

But like

bigger than Blossom.

Oh, my God.

And there to make friends so they can eat her later.

Oh, shit.

Anyway, the.

coyote drama will not end in my backyard.

Oh my God, that's terrifying.

It was like a little pack.

And it did look like cute stray dogs.

And then I was like,

these are are the dogs

yeah it takes like four of them right now but in the future it'll just take one

you know i've never seen pride and prejudice i know i know i know there's so many people i don't want to fight i don't want to fight i it's not there was no like decision made really not that kind of girl and so it never came up a girl with a heart and a brain and sense and sensibilities you should

you truly will love it i know i will like i don't know it's taking me so long well and also Matthew McFadden, everyone's favorite part of Succession

is the romantic lead.

I just heard a whole thing about his hand twitch, and I'm like, well, I have to see this.

I have to see it.

Here's what I'll say.

First of all, I literally just watched it yesterday.

Wow.

Okay.

It is cinematically.

One of the more satisfying movies that's ever been made.

It's not just like, it's not just a J.O.S.

type of thing.

Truly not.

Okay.

There's so much incredible acting.

So many of the best of the best British actors are in this movie.

Brenda Blethlin as the irritating mother will free your soul.

You will love her so much.

I guess it's just like, I know I'd be a peasant back then.

So why do I want to watch fucking rich people traipsing around

falling in love?

I know I'd be a peasant or I'd be a scullery maid or I'd be, you know, something.

Something dirty.

Something shitty.

Something like my fingernails were always gross.

And like you have a lot of like liver paste under your fingernails.

Yes.

And like so many children for some reason.

Yeah.

So like why don't I don't know just for some reason.

Like right now, today I don't.

But you guys have then I absolutely would have.

Yeah, you would have been required to.

Definitely.

Give it, you know what?

Just put it 15 minutes on your timer and then start it and see where you end up.

I know I'll love it.

I know that.

Okay.

Yeah.

No one get mad at me, please.

No, no.

But there is a bit of a, the, the warning of like, oh, this is somehow historical or it's going to be dry in some way.

Yes.

It's not.

Okay.

Okay.

Okay.

I mean, the only reason I watched Bridgerton and I liked it was because you told me there was something really dirty before season.

I was like, I got to check this out.

Should I?

So tell me there's something in Sense and Sensibility.

There's like a, like a Skin-Amax scene.

Okay, but it's Pride and Prejudice, first of all.

That's what I meant.

Skins and Skensability.

Skents and Skensability.

It's,

yeah, there's the really intense fingering scene.

They're at three quarters of the way through it.

Is that what you want to hear?

Yes.

But it's really like locked eyes.

It's insane.

Dr.

Shocker comes around and just blows everything out of the water.

In this tiny town in Victorian instances, and then it goes back to normal.

It's so weird.

It's very strange.

Stop it.

Let's do this podcast.

Let's do a corrections corner and then knowing full well that we're going to have to do another corrections corner for what I just said about Jane Austen book.

Okay.

This one makes me laugh really hard because I think our audience now knows us so well that they're like.

I know what you meant.

Of course you don't know this, but I will be nice and tell you.

I love that like, I think what you meant was like trying to, like, we can't think out a word and they know what we're trying to say.

Also, truly, and I don't know how many times I have to say this, when I just say stuff, I, that is what I'm doing.

There's in no way did I think that as you were retelling me the Amistad trial, that when you were like, John Adams, blah, blah, blah, that I, that my response was going to be historically accurate from an educated mind,

any of those things.

No, no memory.

Well, so.

In the story from last week, the Amistad trial, which is episode 476, I explain that President Van Buren appeals the decision for the Amistad party to return home.

And then I say that the abolitionists ask former president and current Massachusetts Congressman John Quincy Adams, you know him, I say, to represent the group in court.

My response is, of course, Paul Giamatti.

Paul Giamatti, that's your response to everything.

We always cut a lot of that out because otherwise this whole show would be just talking about Paul Giamatti, but

still referring to his, you were referring to his TV miniseries, John Adams.

Yeah.

Well, Stephanie, a listener, emailed with a corrections corner, John Quincy Adams is the son of John Adams.

It's actually a very common mistake.

And then Elizabeth.gray on Instagram also caught it commenting,

I'm so sorry, but Paul Giamatti played John Adams.

John Quincy was his son played by the hotty, hot, hot Evan Moss Bachrach, who has one of those like, why

he's so hot without being hot.

Yes.

Like Walton Goggins.

Yes, exactly.

Why am I so attracted to this person?

Well, I was going to say because Eben Moss Bachrach, who is the brother from The Bear.

Of course.

And from Girls, the fucking incredible, his character was incredible.

A total piece of shit in Girls.

It's so good.

But also, he has a little bit of Vince in his face to me.

When I first watched The Bear, I was like, that guy looks like Vince.

And he has Vince's like coloring to the blonde.

Oh my God, you're totally right.

And like the soft eyes of like the eyes of a person that's going, what are you doing, man?

Yeah.

All the time.

Who knows your actual like um he knows what's behind what you're doing yeah and you can't trick him no yeah no that's real and he's gonna use it this guy though he looks like he's gonna use it against you in the future right vince won't vince is like i'm gonna i'm gonna help you book a hotel with this information that i have about you this is how i know like to do something really nice for you but This guy's like, this guy, I'm your drug dealer.

Careful.

You should be careful.

So that's corrections corner.

Anyway, did that help all your history students?

We drove that one right into the wall.

Well,

listen, here's what's important.

We have a podcast network and there's a lot of stuff going on.

There is.

It's called Exactly Right Media.

Yeah.

Here's some highlights.

Yeah.

This week on Buried Bones, Kate and Paul head to 1924 England for part one of their two-part series about a young couple faced with an unplanned pregnancy and a police force faced with an open and shut murder case until a new discovery changes everything.

Yeah.

And then over on The Knife, our newest show that we're so proud of, Hannah and Patia bring you the story of Jennifer Thompson, a college student who survived her brutal assault.

She did everything she could to help identify her attacker, only to learn years later that the wrong man had been convicted.

You should be listening to The Knife regularly.

It's so freaking good.

They're so great.

Also, they just got featured on iTunes in the, like the The Knife as a podcast just got featured.

It's new and noteworthy.

Yeah.

Go take a look at that.

Yeah.

And you will see.

Also, very new, very noteworthy podcast that we love so much is Ghosted by Roz Hernandez.

This week, Roz is honestly stunned when iconic actor and comedian Mo Collins, who I love the most.

Incredible.

The funniest.

She shows up with a real-life haunted house story that has everything, a poltergeist, a ghost, a portal, and a very freaked out real estate agent.

Mo Collins is incredible.

So funny.

A natural.

Finally, on I Said No Gifts, two-time survivor contestant Zeke Smith disobeys Bridger with a gift by bringing him a gift, even though the podcast is called I Said No Gifts.

They don't care.

And they just keep bringing him gifts.

They chat about processed cheese, airport renovations, and the universal truth of dust.

Shit.

What could it be?

That's heavy.

What's the universal truth?

It's just everywhere, and we're made of it.

It's like in our

skin.

Pores.

It's also stars.

Oh, also, here's a special announcement for anybody listening who lives in the Chicago area.

Two of our podcasts are coming to the Den Theater in Chicago.

So first, the Banana Boys are performing there live on May 8th.

And then I Said No Gifts is taking the stage to record a live episode on May 23rd.

So go to the Den Theater, laugh, then you can come home and listen to your own laughter a few days later on I Said No Gifts.

So fun.

Go to thedentheater.com.

Those two shows are, I feel like all the shows on our network, but those two specifically are so good live.

Oh, yes.

Like you have the best time.

Go by yourself, bring a first date.

It'll like, it'll be fine.

Yes, both of those, you're, you're completely right.

Both of those shows as something to do one night will deliver in every way.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

Um and exciting merc this week's episode of Rewind was originally released right after the 2016 election.

And we said then our infamous quote, this is terrible, keep going.

And so we're re-releasing some of that merch that Karen, if you, if you're watching this on our YouTube page, exactly Right Media, you'll see all this fucking incredible, oh my God, that t-shirt's great.

Right.

Is that mine?

I knew you would love that.

We brought it back.

We have made a gigantic tote bag that you can root root around in forever.

You guys are tote people.

These sweatpants, which I told the story the other day, I wore my own merch out because these sweatpants are so comfortable, you don't want to take them off.

I have the Virginia Married ones, and they're like the softest thing I've ever tried.

They're real good.

They're so soft.

So soft and very cash that it's, this is terrible, keep going.

It's just kind of right up on your hip.

I might take these off.

Pretty low-key.

And then, of course, the mug.

The mug, the best mug ever.

And I love this color combination.

Blue and light blue are my dark blue and light blue are my favorite combination.

Real nice.

Very good.

So go to exactly rightstore.com and you can see all of it and get whatever you feel like.

That's right.

And, you know, with all the protests that are basically happening every weekend now, just remember that this was a saying that you and I came up with.

One of us said this is terrible.

The other one said keep going.

It's from our 2016

after the election episode.

And so we're relaunching it now for these terrible times that we live in to just bring people some some sort of comfort.

You know what I said?

I said Sally Forth to Vince today.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

He's like, what are we going to do?

And I'm like, Sally Forth.

Yeah.

Got to.

And it felt real and right.

Yeah.

You have to listen to old Jim.

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Goodbye.

How could popular Mormon family vlogger Ruby Frankie end up being convicted for child abuse?

The answer to that question is Jodi Hildebrand.

But Jodi's manipulation extended far beyond the Frankie family, seemingly leaving a trail of victims in her wake.

This ID documentary event features never-before-seen interviews from survivors who found the courage to expose her systematic abuse.

Ruby and Jodi, a cult of sin and influence, premieres September 1st at 9 p.m.

Eastern on ID.

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Goodbye.

Bye.

All right, you're first.

That's right.

So my story this week, and I remember when Maren and I were talking about picking it as a story, because this documentary about this story came out in 2007, and I saw it very soon after.

And it's the living proof of like it was a different time, even though it was only 2007.

It seems recent.

But the story I'm about to tell you and the way it was kind of presented at the time compared to how it probably would be presented now

is pretty crazy.

Yeah.

There's a lot to be grateful for in terms of where we are right now, even though it's terrible and we have to keep going.

Also,

there's some good stuff.

So let's start at the beginning.

It's the morning of June 15th, 1959.

Okay.

It's right before my first birthday.

And 22-year-old Linda Riss, who's a beautiful woman.

A lot of people say she looks like Elizabeth Taylor.

Wow.

She actually just kind of has a little baby face and she's very kind of glamorous.

But I'm sure Liz Taylor was like the height of beauty at the time.

So they're just saying she was just an attractive woman.

So Linda's about to leave her Bronx apartment where she lives with her mother to head into work in Manhattan, where she works as a receptionist.

But before she can do that, the doorbell rings.

Linda's mother asks who's there, and from the other side of the door, a man calls out, package for Miss Linda Riss.

So that's not weird.

Linda is used to getting gifts either from her doting fiancé, Larry, or from friends and family who are sending them gifts because Larry and Linda just recently announced their engagement.

Got it.

In fact, their engagement party had been the night before.

So the idea of like getting sent something to the apartment wasn't weird.

But as Linda opens the front door to see what she's been sent, she only sees sees the delivery man for a flash, and then she feels what she thinks is boiling water having been thrown in her face.

Oh, God.

Her mother screams in horror as Linda starts screaming in pain.

Her eyes are burning.

Her skin is burning.

She's rushed to the hospital where she'll learn.

that, of course, that liquid was not hot water, it was a lie.

Fuck.

Right?

So if you don't know, that's the chemical that used to be used in soap and cleaning products.

It's very caustic in its raw form, and that means it can burn human skin.

And the obsessive, delusional man behind this attack seems committed to making Linda's life a living hell.

This is just the beginning of a long and twisted, not love story, kind of the opposite of a love story that's presented as a love story

and was at the time, the details of which will feed the tabloid press for decades.

And in the early 2000s, becomes a documentary called Crazy Love.

This is the story of Linda Riss and Bert Pugash.

I think I've heard of this one.

I think you have.

Yeah.

So the main sources used today are the 2007 documentary Crazy Love, directed by Dan Clores and Fisher Stevens, the actors.

I definitely saw that, but it's been so long.

Yes.

It was like a very early, at that time, a documentary, which is like, can you believe this story?

And it was kind of reflective on, can you believe what the tabloids used to be like or what these things, you know, what used to fill up our daily media?

Yeah.

How we were okay talking about certain things in ways that were just completely inappropriate.

Yeah, exactly.

Having the media kind of present the stories, and this is what you will think of this now.

Right.

It's like when they call it a crime of passion, where it's like, that's not a fucking thing.

Right.

Yes.

Okay.

So the other sources are the book, A Very Different Love Story by Barry Steinback and several articles from the New York Times archives.

And the rest of our sources are in the show notes.

So this story actually starts two years before this lie attack in 1957 when a very successful 30-year-old negligence attorney named Bert Pugash sees 21-year-old Linda Riss standing alone in a park.

And Bert will later say,

I thought she was the most magnificent, gorgeous-looking female I had ever seen.

She was so proud-looking, the way she carried herself with her shoulders thrown back, her head held high, her long dark brown hair just stirring in the breeze.

Literally, from the moment I saw her from 30 feet away, I fell hopelessly in love with her.

So he's at a zoo explaining

this animal.

The female

of this

species.

She's proud.

She's proud with long hair.

Her fur is long.

Yes, and luxurious.

I also think it's kind of sad because you were not in love with her.

Right.

You were attracted to her.

You're attracted to her

probably mostly sexually.

Right.

And you don't know her as a person at all.

Right.

So he introduces himself to Linda.

He wants to win her over, so he begins to send her flowers and gifts.

It's a clear case of love bombing, and he's got the money to do it.

He takes her out to the city's swankiest nightclubs.

They rub elbows with celebrities.

He takes her flying in his airplane.

It's just a classic kind of like, I'm going to invade your life.

You're the thing I want.

I'm going to get it.

We're all in.

Let's do this.

Yeah.

As charming as Bert seems at first, he's also emotionally volatile and manipulative.

He's constantly pressuring Linda to sleep with him.

She won't do it unless they're married.

Then he goes on to accusing her of having sex with other men behind his back.

And he is so non-stop and confrontational about this fact that Linda, this is such a like time and place horror show.

Linda goes to her doctor to get him to confirm her virginity for Bert.

Oh my God.

How old is she?

22.

Wow.

Yeah.

That's creepy.

It's super creepy.

And it's like, so a guy in a park comes up to you and just won't leave you alone.

And now he owns your fucking body and life.

Yeah.

And now you're answering to him in this way because he he has a plane right or because he'll take you to cool places right i mean it was the setup back then yeah that's true it was the whole idea is like you get pretty enough and then you get these things yeah and whatever comes along with that you deal with it totally totally okay so linda's still very young This relationship is very confusing for her.

Bert is dazzling her with attention and affection and all the things his wealth can afford, but he also treats her terribly at times.

And then things begin to escalate to physical violence.

So several months into their relationship, Linda then finds out Bert is married and has a young daughter.

Oh shit.

Yes.

So that's when she decides she's had enough.

This is not the romance that has been presented or that she wants it to be.

Bert swears to her that he's in the process of ending his marriage.

He even shows Linda his divorce papers as proof.

She's skeptical and she will later say, quote, I never trusted Bert.

I never trusted men.

When Bert showed me a divorce decree, I wrote down the number and I had a lawyer check it.

Not many girls would do that.

Damn, girl.

I feel like if you have to go that far, though, it doesn't matter if it's real or not.

Right.

You know?

Yes.

And also, I'm sorry.

So if you prove it is real,

the love's back on.

Right.

Like, he still lied to you about being married.

Yes, that's the, let's focus on the real problem.

Right.

You don't have to have a huge excuse like the divorce papers are wrong to break up with someone.

Right.

You could just like

not anymore.

But back then,

I think that's the vibe.

It's like, this is your chance to get married or this is your chance to land a, you know, a lawyer, something amazing.

Yeah.

So Linda does her due diligence and it pays off.

She finds out Bert's divorce papers are fake.

Wow.

And he himself is a lawyer, so he just asked his secretary to mock up convincing looking documents.

So this is when Linda finally ends things.

And not long after she does, she meets someone new, this guy named Larry.

Larry is only a year older than Linda and he doesn't have the money that Bert does.

But Linda describes him as, quote, a nice, easygoing guy.

He's also described as, quote, one of the most beautiful men she had ever seen.

Damn, so now she's at the fucking zoo.

Yes.

I'll have that koala.

She's like, how about I get some of this?

And then also, maybe money isn't the thing I'm really looking for here.

The young couple genuinely seems happy together, but Bert Burnt isn't ready to let Linda go.

He bombards her with calls and impromptu visits, begging her to take him back.

At first, she finds it sort of flattering because I mean, like, and that is the

play.

We are always talking about what women did or didn't do and whether they handled it right or not or anything.

And it's like, you're getting the full court press by this con man, and it's your fault that you're falling for it.

We've all been 22.

It's like 22.

It's hard.

It's fucking hard.

Oh.

So at first Linda finds all of it pretty flattering, but then she says, quote, it shortly becomes very stifling.

Bert was relentless.

He would not stop calling.

He would not stop following me.

It was a time of hell for me.

So Linda is forced to continue to reject Bert, and then Bert begins to spiral.

Soon he's threatening to take his own life.

He's also saying things to people like, quote, if I can't have her, I'll see to it that nobody will.

And Bert actually goes so far as to hire men to throw rocks at at Linda's window, hoping that she will then turn to him for protection.

Okay.

Weird.

Of course, she knows it's him.

She's very freaked out by this escalating behavior.

And so finally she goes to the cops.

What's the chorus of this song?

They don't help her.

Right.

Linda says, quote, the police officer at the desk told me that they weren't going to do anything, quote, because he's a lawyer.

So she decides to take matters into her own hands.

She changes her phone number, which telling you, if it's 1960-something at this point, changing her phone number is, I bet you she had to submit tons of paperwork to do that.

Big pain in the ass.

Then she finds a receptionist job one block from the nearest subway stop, so she doesn't have to like

expose herself or go all around.

She even tries to file legal charges against Bert, but he retaliates by writing his own bogus claims aimed at making the RISA's lives miserable.

So

he's like ready and willing and very able to weaponize the kind of legal system against her

and in defense of himself.

So now it's spring of 1959.

Oh, it's 59 when she has to, they just got phones.

And now she's trying to change her number.

They're like, ma'am.

We don't have anymore.

It's still Murray Hill 35709.

We have no other phone numbers.

It only goes up to 5,000.

Okay, so the spring of 1959, Linda and her boyfriend Larry get engaged.

And as you can imagine, Bert freaks out.

Linda will later later say, quote, that was my undoing.

The minute I accepted a ring and got engaged, that's when Bert went ballistic completely.

That's when he really lost it.

So Bert shows up outside of Linda's house with a loaded gun, fully prepared to shoot Linda and Larry as they leave her home.

But at the last minute, he changes his mind.

He will later admit, quote, it's not an easy thing to kill, to shoot a person.

I had to retreat.

Kind of making himself sound like a victim in that situation.

This is too hard for me.

Where it's like, this was your idea.

Yeah.

So instead of doing the dirty work himself, Bert decides he's going to outsource the job.

That brings us back to the morning, June 15th, 1959, when the man Linda thinks is a delivery person throws lie in her face.

Who the fuck could you get to do something like that?

I mean, like this person is just a rando and is like, yep, I'll do that.

Sure.

Don't disfigure a stranger.

And usually at the the end of these stories, they disfigure a person for like $300.

Right.

Exactly.

So, of course, this horrible thing happens.

Linda's rushed to the hospital.

Her friend will later remember, quote, Linda just lay there unconscious with greasy medications smeared all over her eyes and face.

There were massive scars all around her eyes.

Her cheeks and forehead were burned terribly.

So when Linda wakes up in the hospital the next morning, she can't see.

She's so distraught that her friends and family are afraid that she might take her own life.

And they actually install bars on the windows of the hospital room.

So it was so long ago that there weren't already bars on the windows of hospital rooms.

Those windows could open.

Meanwhile, word of the violent attack on a young, beautiful bride to be draws the interest of tabloid reporters, which is kind of strange.

It's like the lead up to like the National Inquirer of the 80s.

Yeah.

But like, I feel like this, we've done versions of this.

Right.

There's a lot of celebrity versions, whatever, but this kind of straight up a stranger.

Yeah.

It's the Sherry Papini that I think that it dies.

It's a scoop.

There's a scoop and we need it.

Yeah.

And this is like salacious.

Yeah.

It just doesn't feel like they do this as much anymore.

It's complete.

Okay.

So Linda gives them a statement when they call saying, quote, you read about these things, but you don't believe they could ever happen to you.

Why did it happen to me?

I only hope to die.

So she really gives them a quote.

I mean, they're looking for salacious and they're looking for a horror show and she gives it to them.

So from there, the media interest around Linda's attack grows and grows and her story makes headlines across New York.

Meanwhile, everyone who knows Burt Pugash has the same thought.

He has to be behind this attack.

Linda spends nearly three months recovering in the hospital, and she's placed under police protection after the fact.

Although she regains about 80% of her vision in one eye,

she's lost her other eye.

Oh my God.

As well as all her hair, she has permanent scarring on her face.

And the entire time that she's recovering in the hospital, Bert is continually sending her flowers,

calling her constantly and repeatedly asking to see her.

Ew.

So just relentless monster.

Based on the descriptions from Linda and her mother, the police know that Bert was not the one who threw the lie in her face, but they're certain he's behind it.

Unlike before when Linda asked for help and got ignored, detectives are now working very hard to see that she gets justice.

And then I wrote in all caps, now that she's lost an eye.

Right.

Like,

she needed it a minute before that.

Well, also, it just is that thing of like, people not only didn't see the warning signs of like an obsessive stalker type like this,

it was romanticized.

It was like kind of in the media of like, isn't this sad for this bride?

We're not talking about the guy at all.

We're not saying, here's a well-known lawyer in this city.

It's just get the quote from her.

Totally.

So the cops just need solid evidence to secure Bert's conviction so that they can make an arrest, right?

Fortunately for the cops, Bert can't keep his mouth shut.

Investigators secure a warrant to bug his law office and immediately catch him on tape, basically admitting that he orchestrated the attack on Linda.

So he's finally arrested on October 30th, 1959, along with the three men that he hired to help him carry out that attack.

Yeah.

So the Daily News reports this.

Linda, brought to the station house by her policewoman guard, identified the lie thrower and then kissed every one of the detectives who had worked so hard.

End quote.

And then I just wrote in all caps, I don't like that at all.

No.

Maybe it's that moi, like a thank you.

Maybe, but also just gross.

It's gross.

What are we doing?

So as Bert's trial looms ahead of him, his wife leaves him.

I might.

It's so wild.

He's disparred.

He's no longer a lawyer.

It sounded like I said disparred,

but I said disbarred is what I meant in my heart.

Of course, Linda hates him.

So at this point, he has nothing to lose and he starts acting like it.

He tries to mess with everyone involved in the trial.

So he starts filing frivolous lawsuits against the judge in the case, against the DA, as well as against the city of New York itself.

Right before he's supposed to head into the courtroom, one day he takes the lens out of his eyeglasses and attempts to slit his wrists, but totally just superficial wounds.

According to writer Barry Steinbeck, this was Burt's attempt at orchestrating a mistrial.

Barry Steinbeck says, quote, he thought it would incapacitate him for several weeks, too long for the jury to be held.

But

the scheme doesn't work.

His wounds are not going to hold any trial back.

So in July of 1962, Bert Pugash is found guilty of soliciting the lie attack and is handed a maximum sentence of 30 years in prison.

When Linda is asked for her thoughts on the sentencing, she says, quote, I didn't think it was long enough.

I wanted him to rot in there.

And the other men are sentenced as well.

So Linda's discharged from the hospital in the fall of 1959.

She tries to start over.

She moves into a brand new apartment.

So she's not in the apartment where the attack happened anymore.

She starts to go out in public.

She wears stylish wigs.

She always wears big dark sunglasses.

She has an artificial eye.

She basically is kind of trying to get back out there.

But she has this future that she planned that's just fading away.

What happens to her fiancé?

Well, she, this is very, very sad, but she can tell she feels like Larry wants to get out of the engagement and that he's like, basically feels like he has to go through with it.

So she basically tells him she's like letting him out of it.

So she says, I don't think it's safe for you to be in this because he's going to do something.

She's giving him an out.

Gives him an out.

He takes the out.

Oh, ouch.

Terrible way to find out that's not your true love, but

how it is.

And she's right.

Who knows what he's going to do once he gets out of jail?

It's not going to be for a while, but who knows?

So Larry does argue at first.

He promises to stay by her side, but he does eventually end the engagement.

And Linda's in this spot now where it's just kind of like, so the person that I did want to marry doesn't stay in.

And then this guy that I kind of just dated and thought I was having a romance with is my nightmare.

And this is just, these are my choices now.

Oh, no.

Yeah.

So she does start seeing a man who seems interested in her.

They date for a while.

He even proposes, but the man has never seen Linda without her sunglasses on.

And so she's really anxious.

She is objectively a gorgeous woman.

Obviously, she's been scarred and, and, you know, had, there's damage because of that attack.

Yeah.

But this is a woman who's gorgeous enough and came up in this very sexist and very repressed time where a woman was raised to build her worth on how men, how attracted men were

to her.

That was life life back then.

So this kind of anxiety and this kind of like, oh, I hope he still picks me is pretty par for the course.

Linda's friend suggests that she make arrangements to meet with her boyfriend purely for the reason of having him see her without the dark glasses on.

So here's what Linda has to say about that plan.

She says, quote, lo and behold, he came up to the office one day and I was wearing my clear glasses and apparently it kind of floored him.

Let me put it that way.

It was more than he expected.

He couldn't handle it.

You know, it devastated me.

It hurt me, destroyed me.

She also says, you have to understand, I'm now a different person.

I'm walking around with shades.

I'm never taking off these shades.

I'm not thinking in terms of ever getting married.

It's just not going to happen.

I am now damaged merchandise.

Oh, honey.

Yeah.

So that brings us into the early 70s.

And now Bert in his mid-40s, he's doing time in Attica upstate.

And he served about a decade of his sentence and, of course, has learned nothing.

He continues to harass Linda.

Jesus.

She says, quote, Bert used to send me mail from prison, pages and pages of letters.

I used to change numbers like you would change underwear.

Didn't work.

It never helped.

No matter what I did, there was no getting away from Bert.

Oh, my God.

He like wouldn't give it up.

No.

And also, no one's knowing it.

I know.

You think that he'd be like, he'd get a restraining order against himself.

You know what I mean?

Like, he wouldn't be able to send those.

They intercepted them at the prison.

Yeah.

You would think he couldn't call her or something.

It was pre-all those things getting set up where it's like, so don't let the guy in jail for attacking this woman send letters to this woman.

Don't continue harassing her.

Let's put it on the blackout list.

So in 1971, as everyone knows because Georgia covered this on this show, there's a huge prison riot at Attica.

And during that time, somehow, Burt crosses paths with civil rights attorney William Kunstler.

Kunstler is probably most famous for representing the anti-Vietnam War protesters known as the Chicago Seven, but he also has a deep roster of notable clients.

And remember, Bert is a rich guy, an ex-lawyer himself.

He has been giving legal advice to his fellow inmates, and that's probably how he met.

Kunstler.

Either way, the two develop some sort of a relationship.

And so then Linda's phone rings and she says, quote, one day Bill Kunstler gets on the phone and tells me how much Bert loves me and he wants to get back with me and all this crap.

And I said, if he's so freaking interested, then why the hell doesn't he send me some money?

I'm living like a peasant.

I have no money.

Let him show his good faith, end quote.

Okay.

So Linda's in her mid-30s.

She has been losing vision in her remaining eye.

And because of that, she can't work anymore.

So getting money from the man who violently assaulted her is appropriate and seems normal.

So Kunstler reports this message back to Bert, who sees it as a win, of course, because at least Linda's actually communicating back with him.

Yeah, he sees that as like an opening.

Yes.

So in the documentary Crazy Love, Bert claims this is when he starts charging for the legal advice he's giving to his fellow inmates.

And soon he's able to send Linda around $100 a week.

It's hard to tell exactly how much he sends Linda.

He claims in the documentary he sends her $4,000, which is how much in today's money?

$172,000, 4,000?

19,000.

30,000.

Wow.

Yes.

So he's sending her money, which to me is like kind of a good faith thing of like, yes, you took away her vision.

Yeah, the court should have probably.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

It should have been that, but this is prehistory.

It's caveman times.

So 14 years into his sentence, in March of 1974, 47-year-old Burt Pugash has a scheduled parole hearing, and Linda knows it's coming.

so she writes to the parole board.

She tells them to deny his request.

She says she'd like to see him die behind bars.

She actually writes, quote, I want him to come out of prison in a box.

Wow.

The judge grants him parole.

No.

Bert is ordered to stay away from Linda as a condition of his release.

Which he follows.

Story is over.

Right?

Yep.

In fact, though, he...

It's such a big news story that he has been released from prison that although he's not allowed to contact Linda directly, he suddenly has a better way to reach her, which is on the local news.

Yeah, social media.

Literally, a week after he's paroled, Linda's watching TV and she sees a clip of him in an interview where he turns and looks directly into the camera and says, Linda, I know you're out there.

Linda, I love you.

Linda, I want to marry you.

Oh my God.

Yeah.

And now he's free.

That's awful.

And if you are

the reporter for the New York Post,

whatever it is, you're like, we're back on.

It's gold.

This is gold.

It's gold.

We're not even going to think about morally if we should do this or not.

No, no, no.

Because we have to.

And

it's been going on at this point for like 20 years.

Yeah.

This story is

giving so much.

So

Linda's 35 years old at this point.

It's 1974.

Then in terms of single lady years, she's about 55.

Right.

In a statement in the documentary, Crazy Love, a friend will simply describe Linda as having, quote, no one on the horizon.

So big concern for everybody at the time.

Some of Linda's own friends, including the policewoman who met Linda while protecting her from Bert before he was convicted, began to encourage Linda to reach out to Bert.

What?

Yes.

So it's like they're saying, but he loves you so much.

Yeah, what else have you got?

Kind of.

Yeah.

I mean, like, he's better than being alone somehow.

Yeah.

Yes.

Get a dog.

God forbid you be an old maid.

You could have this guy.

Yeah.

You could have this guy.

So

and also she's if she has friends and family saying that to her and then she's also the one going through this deal with however she feels about her appearance and the change of it.

So About three months after Bert is released from prison, that same policewoman arranges a meeting between Bert and Linda.

Honey.

At first, it's awkward, but Linda also finds it at first disarming and then kind of comforting because she says, quote, in jail, they made a new man out of Bert.

He was muscular.

He looked good.

I wore my clear glasses.

And this is the, this hurts me deeply.

Sorry, I'm still in this quote, but I wore my clear glasses.

I don't think I could have revealed myself with clear glasses to anyone else.

He saw saw no difference to him.

I was still beautiful.

Oh, Yve,

the psychological trauma alone is just so clear based on that.

Yeah.

And the damage that would be done to like feeling like you might be in love with a person, then you're like, oh, but I have this thing and take your sunglasses off.

And that person's like, bye.

Yeah.

Which is also just what everyone goes through in relationships.

At some point, you have some sort of

symbolic sunglasses that you end up taking off.

And people are like, no way.

Yeah.

Or they're like, okay, but you're so damaged that you're like, but I don't believe you.

And so I refuse to, I refuse to allow it because I just won't believe it.

And this guy, who has harmed her irreparably, has gotten her to that point where it's like, well, then it'll just be me.

I'll be the only one.

Broke her.

Broke her and like.

worked this system to his advantage in the most horrifying way.

Totally.

So Linda's convinced to give Bert a chance.

And eight months after he walks out of prison for attacking her with lie, Linda accepts Bert's proposal and they get married.

No.

Yes.

The New York Daily News runs the front page.

Wow.

They lost their mind over at the media.

The New York Daily News runs the front page headline, quote, woman weds man who blinded her.

Jesus, okay.

Many years later, the New York Times reports on the many factors that lead to Linda's decision to marry her abuser, noting

this is the list of the factors.

Quote, a Christian sense of forgiveness, the advice of a fortune teller, the fear that another woman would scoop up Mr.

Pugash, but mostly she cited her need to move forward.

And then there's a quote from Linda saying, if you're going to remain bitter and obsessed, it will destroy you.

Okay, but you still don't need to.

Okay.

Tough.

Misguided.

That last line, of course, echoes Bert's own crazy obsession, but in his case, it seems to have gotten him exactly what he wanted.

Yeah, it worked.

So the surprise is that Bert and Linda stay married for decades.

Jesus.

They settle into a strange, sometimes combative, but apparently functional partnership.

But instead of retreating to their own private life, they become media darlings.

The couple does the round-on talk shows.

They sit for newspaper profiles.

They lean into the tabloid coverage that so often frames their relationship as a quirky, twisted love story instead of just a one long strange cycle of abuse.

Bert eventually starts working as a paralegal and he even brags after their wedding, quote, my income doubled the first week, doubled, maybe tripled.

Gross.

Super gross.

So Bert knows how to stay in the headlines.

More than two decades after marrying Linda in 1997, he's arrested again, this time for harassment.

You heard that right.

While Linda is recovering from heart surgery, Bert meets a woman and begins a five-year affair with her.

Fuck you.

So this woman accuses Bert of threatening her life, even telling her he'd, quote, blind her like Linda.

Oh my God.

If she ever refuses to see him.

So when this story comes out in response, Bert insists he was never going to actually hurt her.

I was just threatening this woman.

Okay.

Even though your record is one I know of actually threatening to hurting.

Meanwhile, Linda is, of course, furious, but stands by him.

She tells reporters, quote, for all intents and purposes, he's been a good husband.

He sucks right now.

Are you crying?

No, I'm just so disturbed.

I know.

It's horrible.

Yeah.

It's horrible and so sad.

It's so

like one hallway going one direction.

You have to get to the end, which is marriage.

Any way possible.

You have to.

How do we

do you think that women of today have fully incorporated this lesson that alone is better than this?

I think a larger percentage of women now, much larger, double, triple, probably

understand that.

Yeah.

But it seems recent.

Yeah.

That idea.

It can't be.

There can't be that many.

Yeah.

I guess you and I will talk later.

We'll talk after.

So Bert gets arrested and has to go to trial for threatening this woman.

Linda Linda acts as a character witness at that trial.

How are you going to do that?

You know, she's going to walk in in her sunglasses.

Well, he hasn't done that much bad stuff since he threw fucking lie in my face.

Well, here's, it's a little,

it's not as legit as it might sound because Bert is his own

lawyer in this trial.

So he's ultimately convicted of second-degree harassment.

None of their plan works.

He beats the stronger charges, so I guess that part does.

He only serves 15 days in jail for threatening this woman.

From here, life presses on for the two.

In 2007, when Bert is around 80 years old and Linda's around 70 years old,

they become the subject of the documentary Crazy Love.

And director Dan Clores tells the New York Times that Bert's possessiveness was still on full display during the filming.

For example, Bert could not follow the very simple orders to stay away from Linda during the shoots.

Klores says, quote, she didn't want him there.

She wanted to talk.

I told Bert not to come back for seven hours.

Every hour, his key would be in the lock and I would tell him to go away.

Just like

won't drop, won't.

Yeah.

There's no

controlling.

Yes.

The film's release prompts another wave of coverage on the couple, which results in a very telling line from The Guardian reporter Marianne McDonald, who writes, quote, having spoken to Bert on the phone, I have taken an intense dislike to him already.

Creepy man.

So 2013, when Linda Riss is 75 years old, she dies of heart failure.

Through sobs, Bert tells the Associated Press.

That's it for me, right?

The Associated Press.

Through sobs, Bert tells the Associated Press.

So did you just get right on the phone with the AP?

He tells them, quote, this was a very fairy tale romance.

I am sorry.

I mean, I guess in like fuck old school for fairy tales.

Yeah.

Yeah, for Grimm's 1600s German where children get eaten and cooked.

And everyone's parents die.

Yes.

Yes.

Sir.

Hardcore fairy tale.

Yeah.

So over the years, Bert Pugash has expressed remorse for what he put Linda through, even establishing a foundation in her honor for the visually impaired.

But he caused it.

That's right.

Yes, he caused it.

You can't.

It doesn't work that way.

It doesn't.

It certainly doesn't.

He promised to leave that foundation his $15 million estate.

But instead, when Bert dies on Christmas Eve in 2020, at the age of 93, every penny goes to

who would you think?

The girlfriend who took him to court.

A brand new one, a caregiver claiming to have been romantically involved with him in his final years.

Fuck, I mean, she got hers then.

How did he get $15 million?

Well, maybe it was from before being a lawyer, and he had some stashed away.

He said his pay went up times three.

I'm sure they sold stories.

I'm sure they got paid to be in places.

I don't know.

Okay.

As of a 2021 reporting, Bert's estate is the subject of a lawsuit alleging that he had been coerced into changing his will ahead of his death.

Unclear where that investigation stands today, but it's just one more bizarre twist in a saga that, despite so much coverage, framing it this way

hardly hardly feels like it can be called a love story.

In fact, back in the late 70s when Linda Riss was asked by a reporter if she ever loved Bert, her answer seemed pointedly elusive.

She said,

I don't even like the word.

It's so hard to define.

And that's the story of the crazy love of Linda Riss and Bert Pugash.

Wow.

I want to see a picture.

Yeah.

That's devastating.

Insane.

Oh, man.

Oh, she's so beautiful.

Wow.

That makes me sick.

So.

Oh, my God.

Well, great job.

Thank you.

How could popular Mormon family vlogger Ruby Frankie end up being convicted for child abuse?

The answer to that question is Jodi Hildebrand.

But Jodi's manipulation extended far beyond the Frankie family, seemingly leaving a trail of victims in her wake.

This ID documentary event features never-before-seen interviews from survivors who found the courage to expose her systematic abuse.

Ruby and Jodi, a cult of sin and influence, premieres September 1st at 9 p.m.

Eastern on ID.

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Okay, now it's your turn.

Now it's my turn, and we're going to take a turn.

Okay, great.

Not right away.

This is about a not well-known

war that took place in Western Australia in the 1930s.

That I, I mean, it's so not well known that we got one email from a listener about it in the Gmail.

That's it.

Okay.

But I think it's going to be your new favorite war.

Okay.

Because I know you have so many.

I mean, yeah, it's going to be

tough.

I'd say my first favorite wars is MASH.

Okay.

So I'm going to start cold and I'll tell you what it's called in a moment.

Okay, I'll wait.

Please wait.

Okay.

Please hold.

So we're in the aftermath of World War I.

Thousands of veterans who are nicknamed soldier settlers moved to Western Australia.

And it's a vast area with a huge array of climates.

There's tropical coast up north, desert in the interior, a Mediterranean climate similar to parts of California on the southwestern coasts.

It's a fucking beautiful place we should all move to.

We should, don't you think?

Remember, we did like a tour which was kind of southeastern.

Yeah, we didn't go to Perth.

We didn't go to Perth or Man.

Oh, man.

Dang.

Next time.

So the Australian government has bought thousands of tracts of land to sell to the soldiers at discounted prices in an effort to reward the men for their service with farmland to develop and profit from.

So they're trying to.

you know, expand.

Give back in.

Yeah.

There are more than 5,000 soldiers who buy land under the scheme.

And the problem is that the amount of land with good soil for farming in Western Australia is kind of low.

So many of these soldiers are stuck out on tracks with low quality soil and a host of other issues that haven't really been thought through.

In the end, most of these soldiers wind up raising sheep and planting wheat, which is what's most suited to the climate.

And in the 1920s, there's actually a string of really good years.

The wheat grows well.

The farmers are insulated a bit from bad years by selling wool from the sheep, and everyone is making money.

Everything's fine.

Then in 1929, your favorite Great Depression happens, the Great Depression.

The Great.

The Greatest Depression.

The Greatest Depression.

I was falling asleep last night to The World According to Kunk by Philomena Kunk.

Of course.

It's truly one of the best books ever written, period.

Oh, I thought you were talking about the TV show.

You're listening to the book.

Yeah, the audiobook I was listening to.

Yeah, okay, got it.

At first, when the Great Depression starts, the price of wheat stays pretty stable.

Other prices for goods tank in Australia.

So the government pushes a big initiative to get farmers to produce more wheat because it's selling.

Hey, let's just do it.

The slogan they come up with for the farmers to grow more wheat is, my guess.

Hey, it's wheat time, guys.

Nope.

It's more complicated.

It's just grow more wheat.

Damn it.

I should have had you on their creative team.

God damn it.

The Australian prime minister promises the farmers that the government will buy the wheat at a good price.

Australian farmers enthusiastically take him up on this offer, vastly expanding their wheat production.

Right.

But by the early 1930s, there's a new prime minister.

That always fucking happens.

You never plan for that.

Every time it happens.

That's Joseph Lyons and the global price of wheat tanks.

Tanks for nothing.

The government.

You acted like you were reading off the page.

Good one.

The government, which already is facing a massive deficit, actually goes back on the previous prime minister's promise because they can do that.

So the situation is already fairly bleak at this point by October of 1932.

That's where we are.

When that year's wheat harvest is supposed to start, farmers in the town, I'm going to get these wrong, Australians, I'm real sorry, farmers near the towns of Campion and Walgoulin, that sounds right, report an issue.

So this area is one of the drier parts of the state and it wasn't as well suited to farming already.

Right before the farmers are meant to start harvesting their wheat on this land, a plague overtakes the farms and wreaks havoc on the crops.

They trample, they devour, they're more than a nuisance.

They're a downright pestilence of epic proportions.

This is the story of the Great Emu War.

Oh, wow.

What?

Emu.

All of a sudden, these poor slow

gentlemen farmers.

It's like it's already not going great.

They're just trying to make the best of it and suddenly talk their wife into coming.

It's going to be great.

We're going to be farmers.

We're going to own land.

It's okay.

You're afraid of birds.

That's fine.

There's hardly any birds out here.

Yeah, no, no, it's totally fine.

It's Australia.

What could go wrong?

I mean, wild animal-wise, not snakes, snakes, crocs, allocators.

And big shout out to my researcher, Ali Elkin, for even coming up with this story because

I saw it and responded in all caps because it was so exciting, you know?

Yes.

So let me tell you a little bit about emus since I don't know how familiar you are with them.

I could be thinking of kiwi, which is the small bird.

It's not a kiwi.

This is the large one that looks kind of like a ostrich?

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

Okay.

So Evus are actually native to Australia.

And I wrote, like, Charlize Theron.

Wait, that's not right.

Is she?

No, I think she's South African.

Shit.

You know who I met.

I met

Nicole Kidman.

Yes, Barbie.

I met Barbie.

Margot Robbie.

Margot Robbie's.

Fuck.

Man, I can't even get that.

Don't believe a word I say.

You had so many choices.

I did just blonde, beautiful actresses, and I picked the wrong fucking one.

They're the world's second or third largest bird.

I couldn't tell based on searching.

They're right after ostriches.

So ostriches are bigger than them.

Then there's emus.

Okay.

Emus are considered one of the closest living relatives to dinosaurs.

Yes.

Right?

Okay.

Particularly to raptors.

Oh, man.

Yeah.

They are the only species of bird that has calf muscles.

That's so creepy.

Isn't that creepy?

And little

like fighting Irish tattoos on those calf muscles.

Even worse.

And they can jump seven feet high.

They can sprint for short distances of 40 miles per hour.

No.

That's fast.

It's like on the freeway here.

And that's actually about the speed of an average racehorse, too.

So they're fucking fast, little shit.

That's fast.

Right.

Emus have a pouch in their throat that they use to make deep, booming, and grunting sounds for communications that are loud.

You know, I was going to say that.

This is you too, particularly during breeding season.

Hey.

And then here is where a note to Georgia, Allie put a video of an emu running to see how fast it could go.

And then I got into a fucking rabbit hole of emu videos.

How'd it go?

I wrote zoomies because emus get zoomies.

Emus playing fetch with a little girl, dog and baby.

There's a one with a dog and a baby emu playing.

They're fucking adorable.

Okay, so

is this like people now have have emu farms?

Like they're raising them like austerities.

Yes.

Okay.

So yeah, so I went down this rabbit hole.

I saw them run.

It totally looked like the beginning of Jurassic Park with all these long necks.

Just like they're really fun and I want one now.

And you're, yes, I was going to say, and you're like, but Vince, come on, just one more.

Come on, we go save the emus.

And actually, some emus can be gentle and affectionate if they're raised that way from a young age, but others can be aggressive and moody, especially if they're not socialized property.

Did they?

And they may react angrily to being touched or handled.

Hey,

what's up?

So they have tiny wings, so they're flightless, but they're known to migrate very long distances in search of food and water.

In the past, emus typically moved through this area that we're in toward the coast without staying long.

before

but there's been a drought in 1932 and the creation of this new farmland has both cleared areas of vegetation and obstacles and has established new water sources for livestock and irrigation.

It's the perfect place for emus.

So, in this area,

in this time period, guess how many migratory emus visit this area at once?

I'm going to go ahead and say.

You don't have to guess if you don't want to.

I mean, look, I don't want to guess.

I don't want to guess, but I have to guess.

No, I really want to.

One emu standing here, how many do you think fucking showed up for the the great emu war?

500?

20,000.

What?

20 fucking thousand emus

onto this like smallish

area of because also they're eating that wheat?

They're eating the wheat.

Yep.

They're drinking all the irrigated water.

They're like stomping.

They're trampling.

They're like wreaking havoc.

Partying.

They're fucking partying.

This is their kind of, what do you call it?

Burning man.

It's a 1932 early Burning Man.

Totally.

Emo style.

Hey, you meet me on the playa.

Be man, be yourself.

To put that number in perspective, Allie, let me know that 20,000 emus would fill your typical arena where an NBA team would play.

It's the exact capacity of the crypto.com arena.

So imagine playing basketball and then you look up into the crowd and it's fucking just...

wall-to-wall emus.

And they're like doing weird shit like they're going to come down.

Right.

They're like getting ready to.

And they're dinosaurs.

They're dinosaurs.

The same amount of feathers as ostriches um i think so yeah yeah they're similar to ostriches they cut you would think it was an ostrich yeah you would you would yeah you'd get it wrong and you wouldn't be stupid right for it yeah that's what we keep telling ourselves

right

um and to make matters worse high tariffs imposed in the post-war and depression era have made wire netting prohibitively expensive oh so they can't afford to fence out the emus that's not a choice oh no i know so it's literally a perfect story it is So the farmers who are all vets, remember, they're all veterans to World War I.

Yes.

They do the level-headed thing and they write to the Minister of Defense asking to supply,

asking to be supplied with machine guns to kill the emus as you do.

Well, the problem is, and I think we've talked about this a lot of like, it's sheer numbers where it's like, if it was 500 emus, they would be a little more reasonable.

20,000 of these women.

20,000.

And then, so maybe because the government has jerked these farmers around so many times with the price of wheat already, like they kind of know they're in trouble with these farmers already.

They want to appear like they're helping them.

So the minister says yes to the gun request.

But since the government of Australia has smart brains that think in a normal way, machine guns are tightly regulated there.

Yes.

Can you imagine?

I mean,

what a world to live in.

But also

they, just because the farmer soldiers asked for machine guns, why can't they just have regular guns?

Right.

They wanted machine guns.

I know.

It sounds more fun, probably.

They're probably bored out of their fucking minds at this point.

And they're enraged.

So instead, three specially trained soldiers are sent from Perth to the region to operate the machine guns.

Okay, okay.

Everyone doesn't get a machine gun.

Great.

These three guys get a machine gun.

We'll send machine guns to you.

With people who can operate them.

Good plan.

And it's not just like a little machine gun that you can hold and operate and move around with.

It's a huge tube tube that needs to be propped up.

It has a wheel of bullets.

It's like, you know, a World War I type gun.

Yeah.

The rest of the farmers are allowed to help shoot at the emus, but they have to use boring old regular rifles.

Okay.

So the farmers also agree to house the three military specialists and to pay for the ammunition for the guns.

It's not the greatest deal.

Plan or deal for them.

Yeah, but you do have to do that thing where like after a while, you're like, sure, but you did agree to do this huge, crazy thing.

Yes.

And that's true.

But under what pretenses?

Like, were they lies?

True.

Where it's like, oh, you can farm this beautiful area, but it's Australia.

So it's like, it's all snakes and spiders.

Yeah.

They can't.

The expectation couldn't have been.

Right.

And no emus.

Easy breath.

Yeah.

There was no claw, no emu clause.

No emu clause.

We guarantee no large bird will come at you en masse.

Legit dinosaur.

Yeah.

Hordes of them.

Yeah.

Okay.

So the army specialists are overseen by a man named Major Gwynedd Purvis Wynne Aubrey Meredith is his name.

Or his six first names.

Yeah.

Cool.

And so he's there overseeing it, and then a cinematographer also joins the group to film the anti-emu offensive, which is great.

Yes.

Presumably because people in the Australian government believed it would be successful.

They're like, let's send a cameraman out there and this will be great propaganda for like what we do for our farmers.

The soldiers arrive on November 2nd, 1932, and the war begins.

On the first day they arrive, a flock of 50 emus is spotted at one of the farms.

So they set up their guns on some nearby high ground.

The guns jam almost immediately and the emus scatter.

Ooh.

The next day, the soldiers have a bit more success when they set up ambushes around water sources, but it immediately proves to be very slow going.

Between the rifles and the machine guns, the soldiers are able to pick off about out of 20,000 emus in one day, they pick off about 12 emus max before the rest of the flock has scurried out of range.

Yeah.

So in a day's work, that's 12 emus out of 20,000, and that's a good day, it turns out.

Oh.

The farmers in the military have woefully underestimated their adversaries.

I told you about how fast they are, and I told you about how they have calf muscles.

So they're like, so they're cool.

Yeah.

Kind of hot.

The soldiers that were sent to the farms, they start getting nervous.

They've been instructed by one of their commanding officers to bring back at least 100 emu skins because emu feathers are used to decorate the ceremonial helmets for a particular military unit in Australia.

So this commanding officer was like, hey, this is a great way to get a bunch of fucking emus.

But it's becoming increasingly apparent that killing any emus,

let alone 100, to bring back is not going to be easy.

Yeah.

Because the emus have now started to appoint their own officers

who act as scouts for the rest of the flock.

Yes.

Yes.

They're fucking smart.

They went back to headquarters and they said, sorry, those guys on the hill do not want what's best for us.

No.

Something's going down.

That's right.

One Emu work correspondent wrote at the time, quote, The Emus have proved that they are not so stupid as they are usually considered to be because they do run around like fucking idiots.

Like they do run around like they look goofy.

Like turkeys.

But it doesn't mean they're dumb.

No.

He says, each mob has its leader, always an enormous black plumed bird standing fully six feet high, who keeps watch while his fellows busy themselves with the wheat.

At the first suspicious sign, he gives a signal and dozens of heads stretch up out of the crop.

Dinosaurs.

A few birds will take fright, starting a headlong stampede into the scrub, the leader always remaining until his followers have reached safety.

Wow.

End quote.

Shit.

So fucking Papa Bear is like, hey guys, here they are.

Also scatter.

We've survived for hundreds of millions of years, so we got this.

Yeah, we're fucking dinosaurs.

No one panic.

Remember those cavemen from back then?

Remember the real recently?

They barely made it.

It's those guys.

These are cousins of those guys.

I'm thinking they're going to kill us.

After the first week of the emu war, it is reported that the group have used 2,500 rounds of ammunition to kill just 300 emus.

Oh my God.

And that's a generous estimate that comes from one of the military specialists.

And you know, they fucking raise those numbers.

Absolutely.

So I'm going to read you this quote the one person who wrote to our gmail about like you guys should cover this story it's really crazy is someone named uh zagready she her and zagready included a quote from someone named john p rafferty that came from the wikipedia so here is that quote that zagrati included okay quote the machine gunner's dream of point-blank fire into seried masses of emus were soon dissipated the emu command had evidently ordered guerrilla tactics and its unwieldy army soon split up into innumerable small units that made use of the military equipment uneconomic, meaning like you're wasting your fucking bullets.

Meanwhile, in parliament, Prime Minister Joseph Lyons, remember him, is now facing questions about the expense of the EMU war.

One of the members of parliament from Sydney asks sarcastically if any of the parties involved in the EMU war should be receiving a medal.

Harsh.

Yeah.

And someone says, if anyone should be getting a medal, it should be the EMUs.

Sounds like a fun parliament.

It's true.

After two weeks, the emus seem to have learned the range of the machine guns.

They fucking

hit me this far.

You can't get me.

I'm out of your range.

It's like when you can't leave the part of the couch that you have won.

Right.

So then your sister just walks just out of range of like, well, then I'll go get myself.

like a cookie and then you can't have one.

Exactly.

They set up shop in the wheat fields just out of that range and move every time the soldiers reposition themselves, scatter when the farmers farmers get close with the rifles.

All this scattering and running is also causing the emus to trample more wheat than they would have if you had never started this fucking emu war.

After the most successful day of the war, when maybe two dozen emus are killed, R.I.P., one of the military specialists examines one of the dead emus and finds that it has five bullets in its body, some of which are clearly old wounds from the beginning of the campaign.

Oh, shit.

Which means that the emus are staying alive and running at close to full speed, even after being shot multiple times.

Like they're fucking Terminator.

Yes.

They're like, oh no, we're going to win this.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Isn't that creepy?

Like it's like sending a message with his body.

It's looking more and more like the emus will win the war until suddenly on December 2nd, the war is called off.

I think they're like, Let's cut our fucking losses.

Yes, this is insanity.

The soldiers claim to have killed between 1,000 and 2,000 emus out of roughly 20,000 that were in the combat zone.

And the emus seem to become a part of life for the farmers at this point, having bested the soldiers.

Still, in future years, the soldiers settlers will continue to request machine guns to fight off the fucking emus, because I'm about to reproducing, but the Australian Ministry of Defense will turn them down every time.

Instead, the soldier settlers are supplied with additional rifles, and eventually they become more successful at fending off the emus on their own.

Picking them off one at a time.

Yeah.

Between the 1940s and 1960s, the farmers kill more than 200,000 of them under a bounty system.

Oh, that's a lot.

PETA doesn't like that.

No, that's bad.

I mean, they're so cute.

Little babies are so cute.

I mean, can't it be like you just get rid of enough so that your stuff isn't at risk?

Right.

It always has to be this, like, now they've killed 200,000.

Yeah, now they're in danger.

Yeah, exactly.

Okay, so then later, eventually the price of fencing comes down and this becomes a much more practical way to deal with emus than fucking killing hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of them.

Then in 1999, emus become a protected species in Australia.

Yay.

And there are about 600,000 of them living in Australia today, which is considered a strong population.

So they're back, baby.

Good, good, good.

They're all riddled with bullets and old wounds.

Yeah.

Oh my God.

Yeah.

Grandpa is telling the stories about how he survived the emu war.

Well, they thought they got me with this one.

I just kept running.

Major Meredith, remember him with the really long name?

He goes on to have a storied military career, having already served in World War I.

He also serves in World War II and in the Korean War with distinction, but I bet that Emu War stuck in his cross.

That's the one that won't be.

Don't you think that's the one he fucking couldn't win?

Yeah.

And that is the story of the Great Emu War.

It's totally insane.

It's so good.

Here's a farmer with an emu, dead emu.

Oh, it's pretty sad.

He's all mad.

He's a big bird, right?

Yeah, that is a big old bird.

You know, he's saying, grikey.

He's saying, my calves.

Please, my calves.

Wow.

All right.

That was great.

Thank you.

Thank you, Allie, for finding that in the depths of the internet.

Nice one, Allie.

I really didn't understand what we were doing at the beginning, but it was fun.

What do you think was going to happen?

I don't know, but I'm really happy to hear like the idea that like, here's how we're, we're going to use sheer brute force to solve a problem and then that problem's like you're not going to though that doesn't work that way that's always i think a better

you know it's good it helps people evolve better ideas yeah you got to learn how to live in harmony with nature yeah you can get you get your ass kicked if not or how about somebody figures out cheap barbed wire you fools you could have saved yourself so much time

okay so let's do fucking horrors and then we're also going to do our own fucking horror which I love because it like makes me think throughout my week, like what's going well and what's going on.

You know what I mean?

Yes, I think that was one of the ideas when we originally thought of this was kind of like focusing on the positive and gratitude and stuff like that.

Pay attention to the good things.

Yeah.

So mine is that I finally bought and put together my very self put together one of those bird feeders that have a camera and an app on it that you can see who's eaten your bird feed.

So far, it's a squirrel and an adorable mouse, and that's it.

So it's not going great.

Well, it's kind of your urban version where you need to get the, you need to get the birds

there.

But the squirrel's like, he's like angry.

It's been really fun watching him try to figure out how to get to it.

And he did or she did.

And they finally made it.

Yeah.

Like, it'd be like, hey, you have an animal and be like climbing the tree near it, clearly trying to like.

jump somehow.

Yeah.

It's like, it's charming.

There's a whole adventure.

You know, we got my dad that for Christmas.

Yeah.

We still, no one's put it up.

We're like, well, he's not going to put it up.

Right.

Me and Laura are not going to put it up.

It's kind of hard.

I guess we have to task wrap it somehow.

Yeah.

Well, I can do it now.

Okay.

Great.

If you wouldn't mind driving up.

Not at all.

What's yours?

I'm going to do a fucking hurry that is as superficial as possible.

The thing that's been really getting me through like the last month is just like a timed,

like a timed and planned morning latte.

Oh.

Where it's like this little special kickoff treat.

Yes.

That then, I don't know why, just that thing where it's like, instead of like waking up and just being like, soldier through it, like get, yeah, get these things done or start whatever.

It's like, no, no, no.

It's like, it's latte time.

It's a little like, I'm still laying in bed and then I get it.

I order it and I pick it up.

And then it's just my little thing that gets me from like this block of time to that block of time.

That is so hugely important in your day-to-day life, I think.

I'm very inspired by the millennials and the Gen Zers who are always about like get yourself a little treat.

Yeah.

They're real big into that.

Yeah.

Cause they're like, hey, guess what?

If I don't do this, I'm still not going to be able to afford a house.

So I'm going to fucking do it.

So and have a daily fucking moment of joy.

Yes.

Get.

aggro about finding your little things of joy so you can go from little piece of joy to little piece of joy.

It's very important.

It's a very nice approach.

Okay, now we're going to read yours.

You guys can comment them anywhere you want on Instagram, on all the places, LinkedIn.

Yeah.

Get over there.

uh dot net uh dot biz dot biz youtube we have youtubes up now and you can comment your fucking hoorays there so here are yours you want me to go first sure okay this one

yay for fucking hooray nice it's from our email hi ladies and everyone at exactly right today i accepted my dream job as an elementary school librarian yes oh i remember mine so important i have worked so hard for this and i cannot wait to help kids see themselves in the books they read, especially now when reading and books are under attack by our government.

SSDGM and always remember to fight for libraries and for public education, Manny, he him.

Thank you, Manny.

Great job, Manny.

You're so right.

Now that libraries and books are under attack from our government

is a true statement being made on this podcast in 2025.

Manny is sallying forth.

Manny.

is kicking ass.

Thank you.

And thank you to all librarians.

Definitely.

Okay, you go.

Okay, well,

this one is,

it says, my fucking hooray is fast food chili?

Question mark.

Question mark.

This was sent into the my favorite murder Gmail.

It says, yep, it sure is.

After avoiding Wendy's chili my entire life due to the notion of errant floating thumbs in it, I was finally brave enough to order it after listening to Karen's recent deep dive.

I'm happy to report that the chili is pretty damn decent.

Wow.

And honestly, in this motherfucking upside-down world, having one more decent option for lunch is in fact a fucking hooray.

I mean, right?

And then it says,

so thanks, Karen.

I also told my boyfriend he should start eating walnuts before drinking his coffee because I heard on a podcast that it's good for your esophagus and heartburn.

He looked at me quizzically and said, but you only listen to murder podcasts.

Yeah.

I replied, yep, that's where I heard about it.

So I guess TBD on whether or not he takes the advice.

Thanks, crew, for all you do, Lindsay.

Aw, Lindsay, thanks.

Lindsay's just turning it all around.

I love it.

Chilly.

My last one's from Instagram.

My hashtag fucking array is that on Sunday, I completed MFM.

That's my first marathon.

Hey.

It was hashtag fucking hard, but I finished in three hours, 48 minutes, and raised 1.5K for a local cat rescue

at Pad Paws Animal Rescue, who specialize in senior, sick, and hard-to-adopt cats.

I also volunteer and foster for them.

They rock.

I conquered a bout of flu and a dog attack during my training.

Jesus.

Wow.

And I'm pretty fucking pleased with myself.

MFM kept me going through many long runs.

Love the pod.

Now to ice my old knees at, and it's Sophia with a ton of S's in the beginning and a ton of A's at the end.

Sophia.

Yeah, Pad Paws Animal Rescue.

Everyone, go follow them.

That's a great one.

Yeah.

Wow.

Sophia's getting it all done.

Yeah.

Well, same with this person.

This is also from the email.

And the subject line of it is, want to be on stage with Bernie Sanders.

And then it says, last week I got this text from my friend and union president.

And then in parentheses, it says, I'm her VP, asking me if I want to be on stage at the Fighting Oligarchy Tour stop in Folsom, California the next day.

Wow.

The answer was obviously yes.

And that's how I ended up in the VIP section directly behind AOC and Bernie, representing my local and state teachers union.

The event was huge.

We could see the constant stream of people coming in the whole time.

It was surreal and it filled me with such hope in this very dark time.

Wow.

My face made it on national news today.

And then in parentheses, it says, look for me in the pink sunglasses.

Cute.

And then it says, it blows my mind that my coworkers and I were part of history that night.

Good will prevail if we stand together.

When we fight, we win.

Rachel.

Amazing, Rachel.

Hell yes, Rachel.

Great job.

Great work.

And thank you, teachers and teachers' unions fighting for education for their children.

Not just for their children, for everyone's children, even the people who are fighting against them.

Yep.

All of those children still get fought for because we got to do this and stand up against straight-up fucking fascism in America in 2025.

Amen.

And thank you guys for listening.

We appreciate you being here, staying strong.

We're locking arms together, audio-wise, spiritually, emotionally.

Stay sexy.

And don't get murdered.

Goodbye.

Elvis, do you want a cookie?

This has been an exactly right production.

Our senior producers are Alejandra Keck and Molly Smith.

Our editor is Aristotle Acevedo.

This episode was mixed by Liana Squalachi.

Our researchers are Maren McGlashen and Allie Elkin.

Email your hometowns to myfavorite murder at gmail.com.

Follow the show on Instagram at myfavorite murder.

Listen to MyFavorite Murder on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

And now you can watch us on Exactly Right's YouTube page.

While you're there, please like and subscribe.

Goodbye.

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Amen.

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Goodbye.

Top reasons: Your career wants you to move to Ohio.

So many amazing growth opportunities, high-paying jobs in technology, advanced manufacturing, engineering, life sciences, and more.

You'll soar to new heights, just like the Wright brothers, John Glenn, even Neil Armstrong.

Their careers all took off in Ohio, and yours can too.

A job that can take you further and a place you can't wait to come home to.

Have it all in the heart of it all.

Launch your search at callohiohome.com.

Every business has an ambition.

PayPal Open is the platform designed to help you grow into yours with business loans so you can expand and access to hundreds of millions of PayPal customers worldwide.

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When it's time to get growing, there's one platform for all businesses: PayPal Open.

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Loan subject to approval in available locations.