Rewind with Karen & Georgia - 55: Let's Hear Your Podcast

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Goodbye.

Hello and welcome to Rewind with Karen and Georgia.

Every Wednesday, we recap our old shows with all new commentary and updates and insights.

Today we're recapping episode 55.

Let's hear your podcast.

After the colon of that would be shut the fuck up Facebook or something along those lines.

Go to Let's Hear Your Podcast.

Oh, yeah?

All this feedback.

For sure.

Okay, so this episode came out February 9th, 2017.

Oh, little baby.

So long ago.

Let's listen to the intro of episode 55.

Hi, how are you?

How are you?

Hi.

Is that supposed to sound conversational or just in tune, like simultaneous?

Can I be honest?

I don't know what we're doing.

I don't either.

But I like the arm raise part.

I think it's kind of like a, And we're off.

Like a conductor.

Like we're conductors.

I'm an orchestra.

Yeah.

A murder orchestra now.

I think this is like episode 55, and we still haven't figured out how to start this stupid fucking podcast.

But really, it's space.

It's like episode three, though, because this is the third episode in my new apartment.

That's right.

It's like third or second.

Three?

Third?

Third-ish.

Third, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So we're getting used to it, you know?

Like, we don't know.

It's just kind of feel it out.

It's definitely different.

It's different.

I can see the kitchen.

I'm staring at the,

there's totally new blinds.

Yeah.

Weird.

It's big.

It's definitely a bigger space.

Yeah.

It feels like we have to fill more.

It doesn't feel like mine yet.

So like we're podcasting at a stranger's house.

Right.

Like I don't want to spill anything on the couch.

I love this couch, by the way.

Thank you.

It's really good.

I want to deal with it.

I got a deal on it.

Yeah, you're, it's very smart of you.

Thank you.

Ikea.

Guys?

Hey, hi.

Hi, oh, hi.

This is the furniture hour.

This is introspection

evening.

This is apartment introspection.

I would like to say, just as a kicker offer, I got in a lot of trouble that I haven't yet watched the Slender Man documentary from one Miss Julie Klosner.

Really?

Who I saw last week because she did guys show when I was working on it.

And it was the first thing she said to me is, oh my God, can you believe the Slender Man?

Don't you love that about people now?

Is that the first thing they talk to you about is murder?

And they're so mad when you don't know what they're talking about or that you haven't watched it.

Okay, can I just say, love Julie Klausner, her book, I Don't Care About Your Man, Amazing.

She's fucking, that was the stupidest fucking documentary.

Ooh, girl.

Dude.

Yes.

It just was like.

Shots fired.

Shots fired.

It was a really cool

documentary about psychological issues that the two girls who stabbed the shit out of their friends had.

Yes.

But as far as like the folklore of the Slender Man, it just like wasn't compelling.

It was cool.

Like there were two different documentaries.

One was about like creepypasta and like cool stories that people online write about like creepy things.

Yes.

And one was about two girls who have some serious mental issues.

Right.

So I just didn't love it.

Were you looking for more of that Slender Man folklore story and it just was too much of real people?

No, I knew I already, I went in knowing that it wouldn't be,

that that it wouldn't, I wouldn't be happy with it.

Right.

Because I'd read about it a lot.

And like, I love the old like black and white photos that like purportedly show Slender Man in the background and it's fucking cool as shit.

Slender Man is the fakest of all of those.

Like, first of all, creepypasta.

I want to get into it.

And anytime, you know, like last podcast on the left has episodes where they read listeners' creepypastas.

And I can practically see the 14-year-old boy writing it at his desk.

Like, it is so, because you get kind of hooked in.

There was one, I remember one, not on that podcast, but one time reading by myself at home.

And it was about these guys that had found this hole.

And it on the website, I think I may have found it on Reddit, I can't remember, where it was like guys who found a hole that they kept going into.

They were like basically caving.

And then it's like they basically climbed in at one point

really far and kind of got stuck.

And then something came at them at the end.

Yeah, they're like they're made up horror stories or like creepy stories, and that's cool, but yeah, it took a little.

Well, the problem is that with all storytelling, the hardest part is the ending.

Yeah, the hardest part is why are you telling this whole thing?

What is it going to lead up to?

And commas, which are they're lacking endings and commas

and

maybe accurate spelling.

Accurate spelling and punctuation.

The whole thing is basically a visit to a junior high class I never had to be in because I'm too old.

If I were 20 and I could read this shit and the internet like existed in its form now, I would be...

I would be so obsessed.

Yeah.

But I'm not and I can't and I won't.

And you, and for this Slender Man, it's like, well, I never heard one hint or hair of Slender Man when I was growing up, which means this isn't even based in reality.

It's not like an old witch that it's like, did you hear about that?

Did you hear about the Blair Witch?

Bloody Mary, Bloody Mary.

Did you hear her tell?

Slender Man is as, it's almost like they did, they did some test-focused groups at the mall of like, what would scare you, a really tall, skinny man in the back of the playground?

Hot topic.

Yes.

Which, like, I worked there.

I'm not trying to talk, I am talking shit, but I worked there too, so fuck you.

It's kind of like Jack Skellington's head got stretched.

Yeah.

Instead of Jack Skellington being sweet with a big round pumpkin head, his head got stretched and he turned strangely evil and he just decided to lurk.

What the best part of this documentary to me was the girl who ends up having like serious mental issues that stab their friend, which I think is an interesting story if you're into true crime.

The mother, her mother that they interview, like there's something

mentally wrong with her.

Like she's like kind of like crazy in this really subtle way.

And like that study to me, like watch it if you're into that like and tell me what's going on there.

Cause she's trying to be so empathetic, but it's so creepy and not right.

It's like if Ted Bundy were trying to be empathetic, like when he has that weird interview and you're like, something is off here.

Wait, hold on.

Knock, knock, knock.

Yes, who is it?

Oh, we are being sued by the mother of the Slenderman child murderer.

I didn't say her fucking name, man.

Well,

Slender.

I think their name's Slender Man.

Well, but also, isn't that what everybody's watching any of those things for?

It's like, basically, you're the armchair psychologist and you're watching because it's like, yeah, you're right.

Two kids, two 12-year-old girls, as intense as being in junior high for girls is, and I would, I will literally and truly, we've talked about it a million times, would not go back for $5 million.

I would never go back.

I mean, $5 million a lot of money.

Well, no, you would spend it by the time you got to our age.

That's your stupid fucking idiot.

But

it doesn't happen out of nowhere.

And so there are those weird combinations of things that happen.

If, like, if you don't have, I'm like, thank God I had an older sister that told me to shut up all the time because then I actually did shut up some of the time.

And so I didn't suffer 99% of the time.

Thank God I had a mom and a sister who made me feel so bad about myself that I was scared to say anything.

Yes.

And so I didn't say most of the shit.

Yeah.

And

it's true.

I mean, I, yeah.

Also,

turns out Woochester is

nuts.

It's Wusta.

Did you know that?

I wouldn't have known it from spelling.

It's Worcester.

It's spelled Worcester.

Yeah.

It's pronounced Wooster.

Wusta.

I think you have to do the like Wusta.

Yeah, you have to talk like Marky Mark Wahlberg.

I didn't know.

How am I supposed to know?

We are from California.

Yeah.

Yeah.

No.

People who live in Boston or from Boston get real up in arms about Wooster.

Wooster.

That's Corrections Corner.

Oh, okay.

Do you have any?

Not offhand.

Yeah.

I think we totally nailed it last week.

There's not one thing that we said incorrect.

Except Wusta.

Except Wusta.

Also, I haven't, I haven't,

admittedly, I've been working so much that I haven't been able to be online.

Or make any mistakes.

Or make mistakes.

I've just been, I nail it.

You know, I feel like when I work, I just nail it constantly.

Like, you don't have time to think.

And so your brain isn't like second guessing.

I don't get in my own way.

I just like naturally good.

You're the best when you're just being you.

You guys always be you, unless you're a murderer.

isn't that a meme yeah

uh

is it yeah that you just made up always be yourself no it's like it's not mine always be yourself unless you're a murderer then don't be yourself i don't know that's hilarious and catchy it should be one if it's not um i tell if you're making fun of me i am absolutely

good good that was That was a lot.

Do we have to talk about this tour?

We are now basically like the Eagles Eagles where we're on tour.

Every weekend, we had a meeting where we found out how many more tour dates are coming.

If you live in some part of the United States where we are not

on record as to be visiting yet, then

you're not tweeting at us.

Come to South Carolina.

We'll probably.

Don't be mad at us just because we're in this part.

We're not.

It's not about that.

Texas, we hear you.

Texas, we hear you.

This isn't the only one.

yeah hopefully fingers crossed there seems to be so much more that I as we were having that meeting and we were making these plans I was like I have to get like my teeth fixed

I have to get my teeth fixed so that I'm not on a plane and somehow like some two like I like I have that and that's my anxiety of like we're gonna be traveling and I'm gonna be in some weird place and then all of a sudden it's like

Mine is that I'm gonna die and not like in a weird place just like oh suddenly you're just dead.

Yeah, that I'm going to die or that Vince is going to die and we're aware.

Like, the thought of someone dying when you're not close to them or you dying and you're far away is so much worse to me than like, than dying in the same city somehow.

That's worse.

Than someone dying directly next to you with their eyes open staring at you.

Yeah, like at least I can be next to you the whole time instead of like, having to go through the airport security and like

and I can't do anything to help and like ugh.

I mean, there's there's no, yeah, there's nothing good about it.

Traveling is going to be fun with me, Karen.

I mean, I feel like we should start stockpiling pills now.

Yeah.

Just like whatever pills we can get our hands on.

Yeah.

Don't send us your fucking Etsy merch.

We want pills.

Unless you're adding.

Is this illegal?

We're not fucking sending it.

Yes.

Or, or, or.

Or.

Because we have these feelings and we know about them, they're going to have like very peak experiences because it's like, whoa, we lived and that was fun and we and we saw that one river or everything was fine.

And everything was fine.

And then we got back home.

Yeah, that's my like, I mean, I work on this therapy where it's like, what, like, what if you get home and everything was fine?

Aren't you going to be bummed that you were worrying the whole time?

Like, what a waste of this fucking incredible experience.

Right.

Also, I'm going to leave a note in every hotel Bible.

I don't know why.

What?

What do you, what's it going to say?

I don't know.

I just like, that's my like plan to get excited about something.

I'm going to leave a note in every hotel Bible, hotel room that I stay in in their Bible.

Can I make a suggestion?

Yes.

What if you just draw a middle finger?

Like, just a drawing of

a hand flipping off.

Your middle finger or my correct middle finger?

Wait.

Remember, we got in

a huge fight?

Yeah, that's right.

One of our big fights.

The nervous fights.

I mean,

I'm not going to draw in a Bible.

I'm going to put a post-it note in a Bible.

I'm a post-it note of a middle finger.

Yeah.

I don't know why that's the first thing that popped in my head.

I went to Catholic school, so maybe it was just like worst-case scenario or a big Jewish star.

We got it first.

Make it put a Jewish star right where the New Testament starts.

Yeah.

As if to say

it doesn't exist.

It's like a stop sign, but it's a Jewish star.

What if in the beginning where it says the Bible?

You know, do they have an opening?

Like the Bible.

The Bible.

Written by.

Yeah.

I'll just put a, I'll just change it to Torah, the Torah.

People are like, what the hell?

Yeah.

The Torah, actually.

I'll write that.

And actually,

sorry.

What am I doing?

Sorry.

Sorry.

This is the Torah.

There's a couple people that have tweeted us and they figured out how to write I'm sorry and the I'm is tiny.

I don't know how they did that.

Do you?

How that like the text of I'm is really small.

It's like legitimate.

No, I don't know how they did that.

I don't either.

It was pretty cool.

Someone actually tweeted us and it said, I'm sure someone's already done this, but look.

And then it said, I'm sorry.

I bet it says fucking young, creepy pasta, fucking slimy kids who know how to work the internet like we don't.

It's some 14-year-old boy who we had been shitting on who was like, but I made the I'm sorry text.

Who stopped listening five minutes?

Was it five minutes ago?

He said he was like, oh, I'm not wanted here.

One hot tear burning down his cheek.

Honey, come back.

Underneath his

transition lenses.

Listen, we're your mothers.

We're trying to make you get out and fucking play in the street.

That's right.

Please play in the street.

Go talk to strangers.

Like, get to know people.

Like, don't sit in home and like write Slenderman fucking cosplay.

They're like, but this whole time you've been telling me to stay at home and not talk to strangers.

Wait, not cosplay.

What's the one where they were like Kermit and like Gonzo bone each other?

Oh, like erotic fan fiction?

Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

My God, I'm aging myself so much.

Dude,

we might die before this tour even starts.

Let's get honest.

Okay.

All right.

Should we start this thing?

All right.

We're back.

We're back.

We're in the pod loft now permanently.

Your pod loft dream has come true.

You're in there.

You put all that stuff up on the wall.

I've got the cats, which just, that's the thing that makes it home, right?

Like that moment when you're moving and you bring your pets over.

Yeah.

And you're like, this is where you live now.

And you watch them smell stuff.

And that's how you know.

Yeah.

Right?

That's right.

Oh, Oh, did you ever watch the Slender Man documentary?

Me, no.

Yeah.

You know, I mean, I know we talked about it, but like that story and those girls, that going that far because they're in this exactly that age where you're so weird and you get the craziest ideas and you're trying to find who you are.

And it's just like, and no one stepped in to go, enough of this already.

And you're so susceptible to suggestion, right?

Yes.

Like you're like primed to be in a cult.

Prime prime to be like there's a 16 foot very thin man always behind the slide on the playground like no there isn't and you just figured out santa doesn't exist of course you're gonna believe dealing with that psychological right fucking shit yeah no i never i never watched it you watched it though yeah well i can give you an update on that case it took place in 2014 and anisa weir was released from a state psychiatric facility in 2021 at age 19 she's the one who committed the crime.

She's living under strict supervision with GPS monitoring and no internet access, and she's required to continue psychiatric treatment.

And then Morgan Geiser, who actually carried out the stabbing, is still in a state hospital.

In January 2025, a Wisconsin judge granted her conditional release from the Winnebago Mental Health Institute, saying she no longer posed a danger.

But her actual move has been delayed several times.

In 2025, in April, her planned group home placement was halted after it was revealed to be just eight miles from her victim's home horrible yeah and the judge instructed the department of health services to create a new placement plan and geyser was returned to the mental hospital while they complete that plan so that's the update as of now And also, that is just kind of like this sad, true underbelly of this case, which is it's a mental illness gone unchecked issue in children.

Yes, together.

Yeah.

I mean, just horrible.

Folly adieu.

Speaking of, let's get into Karen's story about Christine and Leia Papan.

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who's first this week

karen khen

thank god

okay

this

now now that i don't have a job

It was super fun to sit down in front of my computer and have nothing else fucking standing over me.

Isn't that fun?

And get into something.

Yeah.

And here's how I found this murder

specifically.

I had one packet left of the murder cards.

Ooh.

Those

serial killer or murderer cards.

They were like true crime playing cards or something.

Not the cold case playing cards, but they were just the baseball cards.

Yeah.

Remember?

That we got.

Stephen, did you get us those for Christmas?

Yes.

He's like, yeah.

You motherfuckers.

Yes.

Yes, I did.

So I had one pack left.

I looked over.

I was sitting in front.

I was like, crick, crick, crick, ready to find some story.

And then I looked over.

She just cracked her fingers.

Oh, yeah, that's me cracking my knuckles.

And I looked over and I had one packet unopened of those cards.

It's a sign.

I open it up.

There's, of course, three mafia guys where it's like enough already with you people.

Eileen Warnos is in there.

Hi, how are you?

Exciting.

But, you know, well-trod territory.

Sure.

Then I come upon this.

Oh my God, oh my God, oh my God, oh my god, oh my god, oh my god.

And this is the best idea to get murders because I'm like, what am I going to fucking do?

I should just shuffle a deck and pick one that's not mob.

Because there's tons of good ones.

And they start you off like you know every detail and then you can be like, oh yeah, there is enough there.

This is the kind I want to talk about.

I'm sorry, do that again with your paper because that was.

And so.

Also, I just really enjoyed like, I was typing.

It was all for myself.

I didn't have to turn it in nobody was waiting for me to turn it in yeah girl honey i like it okay

come with me back to france oh february 2nd 1933.

that's right

uh

so a man named monsieur l'Encelon is supposed to have dinner with his wife and daughter at their friend's house He gets there first.

They're supposed to meet him there.

At 6.30, they don't show up.

So he goes home to see what's taking them so long.

He arrives to find the front door.

The front door is bolted from the inside, and the only light on in the entire house is the glow of a single candle.

So he knows that something is terribly wrong.

So he goes to the police station because he thinks a prowler has broken in.

He brings the police back to the house, and two officers climb the back wall and break in the back door.

Inside, all the lights in the house are out and it's totally silent.

They look around the ground floor with their flashlights.

They're quietly looking around because they're all thinking there's a prowler inside the house.

And they start to climb the backstairs quietly.

And when they're almost to the first floor landing, so basically the ground floor, they're calling the first floor the ground floor and the second floor the first floor in this story.

I don't know if it's a French thing.

I found it very confusing, but it's basically ground floor, first floor, second floor.

Right.

I did that with my hands visually only for Georgia.

Sorry, everybody at home.

Okay.

So

as they're almost to the first floor, it's really the second floor landing.

The first officer on the stairs sees a white marble on the stair in front of him.

So he leans down to pick it up.

It's an eyeball.

Yes, yes, yes, yes.

We're off to the races.

No, ew.

It's a human eyeball.

No, no, no.

And looking up at him.

So they climb the last few steps to the first floor, which is actually the second floor, and they find the bodies of Mrs.

Lon Salon and her daughter, her adult daughter, brutally murdered.

Oh, my God.

Their faces, quote, reduced to a pulp.

Oh, my.

That, oh, I've read a couple of those and that blows my mind.

Okay,

I was super bummed because after I read this card, read the Wikipedia page, then I found on YouTube, which I highly recommend, a British crime series.

And now there's all these ones I want to watch.

I, of course, forgot to write down what the name of it is, but this one was about them.

And they had all these French experts and all these people, whatever.

And the British narrator also spoke French.

So he pronounced all these names really well.

But

there is a...

Good for him.

Good for him.

You know what?

That's how it is over there in Europe.

Great.

We're happy for him.

There is a picture of this crime scene that I accidentally saw.

From 1933?

From 1933.

And it is so fucking awful.

I want to say that.

Is that gross?

No, I mean,

that's what some people are all about.

I'm not normally about it because it sticks.

My brain takes a picture of it and I can look back at it anytime I want to, which then I'll do that all the time.

So I normally don't.

But there was a part where they talk about how the adult daughter,

Gene Vive,

that her calves and butt were stabbed and slashed.

And as they're explaining that part, the picture just pans across.

Oh, they don't even tell you.

Yeah, they didn't prep you in any way.

And it was really horrifying.

Like it was really, really gruesome.

And

like, and not just like thin knife marks, like these big gash, open gashes and like as many as you could fit on the back of both legs.

Fuck, are you serious?

It was horrible.

Then it pans out and shows both.

And these women, you can't see their faces.

They're so,

it's such a gruesome attack.

Yeah, bashing the head to pulp.

I saw like a crime scene photo once on like cold case files where you couldn't see the guy's head because there was like he had a hoodie on and there was just nothing there yes and i did not want to see that that's how this is it's really upsetting because it's like the front of them looks they look like old-fashioned 30s women yeah and then

yeah

horrifying so dude so it really is that okay so the officers there so they come upon the scene they said there's teeth and bone on the floor it's like it's just it's brutal carnage so they're thinking okay this murderer is still in the house because

the front door is bolted from the inside.

So they go up to the second story.

Third story.

Third, third for us, second for France.

And they're checking everything.

They check every single room and they check the laundry room.

And they see that there is an iron sitting there with a wrinkled shirt on the ironing board.

And they realize that the maids in the house were surprised while they were working and

interrupted during their work.

And so they're like, okay, so there's two maids that are probably also the victims of this guy in this house.

So they're like, holy shit.

Where are they?

So room by room, they're looking for this guy, you know, the intruder and these bodies.

How scary, like with a fucking flashlight doing that.

Horrifying, right?

Once they see that, once they see the actual first murder scene, and then they find in the laundry, the laundry room that the maids were there and that their work was interrupted, they go back downstairs, they let the sergeant into the house.

And then the other policemen send for the superintendent, the examining magistrate, and the coroner.

And then the police go back up and continue to search the rest of the house.

And

it finally ends at the maids' chambers.

They

find that that room is bolted from the inside.

So they're like, okay, this guy's in this room.

They worry that the dead bodies of the maids are in there with him.

So they call a locksmith.

And so then the lock, they wait around for the locksmith to come.

And they're listening at the door while they wait for the locksmith.

And it's dead.

Silent.

Locksmith's taped.

I know, right?

In like a little French village.

So

I said, this is back when doors were actually made of something.

You couldn't just break it down by like throwing your shoulder into it twice, like every cop show, which had then made me think of the time that my sister,

I really wanted to borrow this pink and black pinstripe jumpsuit of my sister's in high school.

Horrible.

It's so 80s.

It looked like it was like.

Black and pink pinstripe.

Black and pink pinstripe.

Jumpsuit.

Jumpsuit.

So it was like black lapel, black buttons.

Oh, my God.

A black patent leather belt.

Yes.

It sounds, you know what it sounds?

Snazzy.

It's snazzy jazz hands.

Jumpsuit.

What's your name?

Snazzy Jazz hands.

Snazzy jazz hands.

My sister, who was a lot thinner than me in high school, was like, no, you can't borrow it.

It'll look bad on you, which it did but she was like had no problem being you wanted to show her don't do it so then i made my mom make her lend it to me and she's like fine and gave it to me but she didn't give me the belt so the middle part was just elastic without the belt with two loops that the belt was supposed to go through yeah and it made me so angry that i kicked a hole in the bottom of my sister's bedroom door holy shit because we were home alone So my sister's like, fine, you can borrow it and threw it at me, but then there's no belt.

So it was like the whole thing fell apart.

So, I got, it was just like the culmination of everything, kicked a hole in the bottom of her door.

She opened the door, like, holy shit.

And then we were both like, oh no, like now we're dead.

Because it was both, it doesn't matter that you did it.

No, you did it because she was pissing you off.

We're both in trouble.

So, you're both in fucking trouble.

And big trouble because my dad did not play with stuff like that.

Like, yeah, he was, he would get really mad.

So, we took one of those, remember those really big Mrs.

Grossman stickers?

There was like really big hearts, really kind of basic basic teddy bears.

It was like the first sticker wave of the early 80s.

Yeah.

So I had a really huge Mrs.

Grossman sticker and we just stuck it at the bottom of my sister's door.

I think it's sweet that she like helped you.

Yeah, she had, well, she had to.

I know, but it's also like

sweet.

Yeah, she knew she was being an asshole.

Yeah.

Then my mom came home from work and is like, you think I'm stupid?

Like, I know you didn't put a sticker at the bottom of Laura's door for no reason.

And it's like concave.

Yeah.

Exactly.

And we were super scared.

And then my mom goes, no, you do realize that your dad, because my dad had eight brothers and sisters, when they would fight, they fought one time so bad that they were chasing one brother.

One brother locked himself in the room and the other brothers took the door off the hinges to get to it.

Holy shit.

And she's like, no, he'll have nothing to say about this.

Don't worry about it.

It's not annoying about parents.

It's like, you never know.

It's going to fucking piss them off.

That's exactly right.

Like, if you act scared, then they'll be on your side.

Yeah.

And if you're like, yeah, fuck it, I i kicked a thing and you know then you're like you're grounded for eight days anyhow listen it's like huh the locksmith shows up

because they had to literally break in that way okay i forgot where you are i know now we're back in france in a horrible horrible murder house cut from sacramento to france petaluma petaluma um

They push, he pushes a thing, he makes the key fall out of the other side, they open the door, and the two maids are in bed.

Sleeping?

No.

With puppies?

Just with each other, sisters, just in their robes.

And

one of the maids says, we were expecting you.

Wait, they're not dead?

No.

Next to the bed, there's a candle on a stool.

And next to the candle, there's a hammer covered in blood.

That's right, girl.

Oh, my God.

I was not.

I thought it was the dad.

Oh, my God.

I was not expecting that.

I really made it.

So I twisted and turned you on this one.

You're a good storyteller.

Thank you.

It's because I hated my sister so much.

Oh, thanks, Laura.

Thanks a lot.

It's all to her doing.

So the police ask them, what did you do to your masters?

And the older maid replies, they wanted to hit me.

I would rather do my masters in than let them do us in.

But like with a thousand blows.

yeah

so holy

the police ask their names and the maid tells them that she is christine papin and the other maid is her younger sister leah

or leia i'm sure when the police sergeant accuses them of murdering the mother and the daughter leah cries out they shouldn't have threatened us and the police um start to focus their questioning on leah because she seems to be the more fragile of the two but then with just one look from her sister she falls silent and christine tells the police that Leah is deaf and dumb.

And then Leah doesn't say another word and the police take them away.

Okay.

So

the mother and daughter have mortal stab wounds to the head and face, as I already said.

The daughter has stab wounds to the butt and calves.

The maid slashed.

the women's faces open and then smashed their heads with a heavy pewter pot.

There was blood going up all the walls,

and both women had their eyes pulled out.

What have we said?

Leave the eyes alone.

Leave them alone.

But not these two.

Their dresses.

Were they alive when their eyes got?

Yes.

Do you think they were alive when their eyes got

plucked?

Yeah.

We'll hear about that later.

Oh, no, I don't want details.

You're going to get them.

Oh, shit.

The dresses were,

both of their dresses were pulled up and their underwear were pulled down.

That's what I'm saying.

So that they were exposed.

But the experts in this documentary talk about how this was like one of those crime scenes that was, from the beginning, was compromised because the cops were walking through it.

They didn't even know they were walking through it.

The locksmith walked through it.

The crime scene photographer walked through it and because of the time,

they pulled up the dresses.

They pulled up the underwear and pulled down the dresses so that they could take the crime scene photo.

They didn't leave it as it was.

To be decent.

Yes, exactly.

So Christine, the older sister, the older maid, was questioned and she said that the iron had broken the day before.

They had to have it fixed.

So the iron broke again that day and they knew their mistress would be angry.

I'm sorry, irons fucking break, dude.

Well, what's interesting, and I wish there was more to be found out about what this family was actually like.

Yeah.

Because

it's one of those things where now they're dead and you can't know.

Yeah.

It was this really intense,

like hideous job.

Anyway, I mean, if you get mad at someone for something that they have absolutely no control over, like, what else do you get pissed about?

Right.

Are you some kind of crazed monster, like mommy dearest-type boss?

Yeah.

So,

Christine says that when Mrs.

Launcelot,

when she told Mrs.

Launcelot the iron was broken again, that

her mistress set upon her.

So as she saw her coming at her, Christine decided to leap at her face and tear her eyes out with her fingers.

Yeah.

And then the daughter came in because she heard that going on.

And as she heard that, Christine yelled to Leah, tear her eyes out.

Holy fuck.

And then so so Leah does it to the daughter.

No.

Yes.

Then both women are on their knees, like holding their eyes, holding their faces.

Like,

dude.

And that's when they started, that's when they pick up the, they, they started hitting him the head with this pewter pot that was nearby.

And then one of them went downstairs and got the other instrument.

So they went to the kitchen and got a knife and a hammer and brought it back upstairs.

Like the moment your eyes have been plucked out, you know you have no hope.

Like there's no, no, it's getting at it.

There's no like they're not gonna like, it's not gonna be a fight and then they're gonna walk away.

Yeah, no, no.

I mean then then they're helpless.

Also, it's just so goddamn horrifying.

You're starting, you're starting with the fucking

the death blow.

Well, also,

who can do that?

Oh my God.

Who can do that?

I can't imagine it's easy.

Like, it's an easy thing to do.

like not even just not even just the i don't even

either i don't even like pulling someone's i like the actual strength and like exactly what's it called uh agility no fortitude fortitude and um

with your hands yes agility i think you're like should be able to know how to do it yeah no it's and it's just the grossest like yeah like a haunted house where like it's like oh cow eyeballs in a bowl or whatever and like you don't even want to put your hand in what are basically grapes covered in, you know, whatever.

Like, they do stuff like that where it's just like, boo, even just the feeling of it, much less yanking them out.

And the fact that they could both do it.

Like, the sister was like, you do that too.

And she wasn't like, no.

Yeah.

She was like, I was going to hit her.

I'm on this.

Okay.

At the end of her testimony, Christine said, I have no regrets.

You don't have one or two?

I mean, it's okay.

Well, you can think about it for a little while.

Go over what you in the eyes.

No, nothing at all.

Nothing that comes to mind.

Feel good about all of it.

And the thing that freaked the cops out were Leah's answers were exactly the same as Christine's.

Oh, yeah.

So they knew they weren't getting the full story because it was such a rehearsed story.

Yeah.

So.

However.

Okay, go ahead.

What?

Nothing.

I mean, the fact that they're admitting to such horrifying things was like, well, what else is there that they're keeping?

from me.

Yeah.

This isn't like the worst thing they could ever say.

No, and it wasn't like they're trying to blame them.

Right.

They're blaming them for being a bitch about the iron.

Yeah.

That's as bad as it got.

Yeah.

They weren't saying, well, they beat us every single day or anything.

We just snapped because they were so awful to it.

You know, it's like, oh, we fucking went after the balls of their eyes.

We went for it.

Okay, so.

They find out that the upbringing is basically they had an unhappy

parents who were unhappily married.

The mother was thought to be very disturbed.

They had an older sister who was sent to live at a Catholic orphanage, who eventually became a nun and like moved away.

Christine was sent to live with her aunt for the first seven years of her life and was supposed to be happy.

Then Leah was born and both girls were sent to a Catholic orphanage by this mother.

So the mother was just like, not handling anything.

When she's 15, though, the mother takes Christine out of the orphanage and places her to work as a maid.

So that's when she started working as a maid when she was 15 years old.

And in 1926, in April of 1926, Christine starts working at the Lans Salons house.

And then when Lee is old enough, she comes and joins her sister.

You know, so basically, Mrs.

Lansalon is said to be a demanding mistress.

She liked her house very clean.

The girls were up at seven o'clock every morning cooking, cleaning, going to the market.

They worked 14-hour days.

Jesus.

They had like an hour off here and there.

They were free to leave the house or just go up to their room.

But a lot of, there's a lot of theories that this was basically that at this period of time, these were like, it was the bourgeoisie who were exploiting the working class.

Yeah, for sure.

So it was like, I'll pay you a pittance.

You're going to come and you're just basically going to work for as long as I want you to.

Like you're available 24 hours a day.

There's no, I mean, yeah, it wasn't like there were workers' rights back then.

Exactly.

It's kind of like how we are with Steven.

Do our bidding.

Maybe I'll buy you a Del Taco.

Oh, yeah, Stephen, you owe her two bucks for that

for the number four combo.

Okay, so both of those, both of the Pepan sisters are found to be sane.

And they say their relationship was not found to be suspect, suspect,

but they were found in bed together, kind of nude,

in a way.

And they said eventually it comes out that they were very close, quote unquote.

One of the theories of why they pulled the women's eyes out was because Mrs.

Lawsalon caught the sisters having sex.

Oh, shit.

Speculation officer.

Speculation officer for sure.

But they were saying because of how homosexuality was viewed at the time, that it would be such,

it would, in of it, in and of itself would be taboo.

And then it's incestual.

Maybe it wasn't her sister.

My sister.

Maybe it wasn't her sister.

You have to see these pictures.

They're sisters.

They look almost exactly alike.

They have the same awesome French eyebrows, but they look, they're so frightening.

They look like a picture out of, they look like the thing of like,

you know, no one's lived in this house for 50 years.

What do you mean you met the mistresses of the house?

Yeah.

And then it's like, she used to live here.

And then you're like, oh, that's the woman that shows up

at night in the hallway.

Oh, my God.

Oh my God.

Oh, yeah.

Okay.

So, so, so, um,

Christine finally admits, after being held in prison for five months, Christine finally admits it was her idea to murder the women.

Leah was just doing her bidding.

Um, so the trial was held in September of 1933.

Huge, this was like the trial of the century.

This This is in Le Mans, which is a small village.

I don't know how big it is.

It's pronounced Wuster.

What?

It's pronounced Wooster.

Wuster.

But like all the biggest newspapers in France go to it.

It's packed.

It's crazy.

The sisters come in.

They both look very sheepish and

they whisper.

You can barely hear them talking the whole time.

And Christine admits to everything.

There's no, they don't put up any kind of argument.

And the prosecution psychologist attests there's nothing wrong with the sisters.

There's nothing in their background to suggest there's anything abnormal about them psychologically.

And Christine, they say Christine is of average intelligence and Leah is of low intelligence.

But the defense psychologist has a different opinion.

He brings up that there is almost no motive, yet the brutality is beyond extreme.

And he suggests there's a third person present at the murders, the combination of the personalities between Christine and Leah, that they had, because they were so close and they were the only person the other person had, they had this kind of weird connection.

They call it a folly-adieux, which is when you hear about, you know, that story of those other two weird

twins that ran into the freeway?

Yeah.

Yeah.

And then there's, there's those ones, and then there's another set of twins.

They're black sisters

who also had a similar who went to a mental institution and was like, whoever dies first has to live a normal life, the other has to live a normal life.

Exactly.

So

they call that a folly a doom, which means that you're both, you're having a shared hallucination.

And they also associate that with couple killers.

That basically you're living in this weird fantasy together outside of the realm of normal thinking.

Wow.

Oh, that's interesting.

So they believe, they also, one of the things that's a defense psychologist suggests that they were going through something called hysteroepilepsy which i didn't look up and it could directly impact my life um but it's basically like they were in a state that that christine was in a state and that leah was just so under her sway that she would she had no choice how do you have like is sustained epilepsy a thing no no hystero epilepsy okay so that's just like

they went hysterical,

their brain went crazy.

I'm not sure.

I should have looked it up to find out exactly what he meant.

I want to guess.

I mean, that's all we do.

Yeah.

But it's basically like they're in some kind of a hysterical state.

Okay, I dig it.

I mean, but the weird thing is, it's like clearly something special is happening in this situation because it's not like

they didn't jump at the women, beat them up, beat them up, hit him in the head once.

Yeah.

It wasn't like that.

This is sustained, extreme, insane violence.

Yeah.

This is like, yeah, dude.

Crazy.

So basically, the jury, the judge and jury

find them both guilty.

Christine is sentenced to death because she basically comes forward and says, it was my idea.

She's ordered to be beheaded in the town square

in the city of Lamont.

Leah is sentenced to 20 years hard labor and 10 years exile, which is kind of old-fashioned.

She's like, I don't want to be around you fuckers anyways.

Well, fine, then go live on an island,

which sounds great.

Christine's sentence is changed to a life sentence of hard labor.

At some point, someone comes in and says there was something else going on here.

And that the, you know, these psychologists didn't, they basically oversimplified the situation.

Obviously, something else was happening.

And can we at least get her

sentence commuted to a life of hard labor or whatever, 20 years of hard labor?

So they do.

They go find Christine.

At this point, Christine has been brought to a mental institution.

She's not talking.

She's not eating.

And she says that she deserves to die the way the jury found her to be guilty of, that she deserves.

the charge.

So she just stopped eating and she's basically wasting away.

When they give her the paperwork to sign sign, to say that instead of being sentenced to death and she gets 20 years hard labor or whatever, she won't sign it.

Wow.

And she

just basically sits in silence, staring into space.

They bring her sister to her.

She doesn't acknowledge her, even act like she knows who she is.

And she

eventually dies.

Sorry, I said that like Lizzie Cooperman.

Dies.

But her sister Leah adapts well to prison life and is released when she's 31.

31.

So she was.

She's an old maid at that point.

Basically.

And she died July 24th, 2000.

No.

Yeah.

She just lived.

She went back to wherever the mother lived and like started her life over and then just kind of like lived.

There is a documentary.

I don't have the name of it, but if you find, if you look up all this stuff, obviously is just a click away.

If I can find it, you can find it but um

there was a documentary someone went and was like there is a pompa and sister left and they're like we're gonna go find her and they find her in like an old folks home

right before she died in her 90s how was your life yeah in her undies in her 90s

oh so it's kind of uh

And also, there's a movie called Sister, My Sister is one movie.

And there's also a bunch of plays.

Jean-Paul Sartre and Jean-Genet, and all these writers of the time wrote a ton about it because it became this thing about like the working class and the exploitation of the workers and how unfair, you know, people with money were to the working class, and that it was kind of a natural reaction.

Yes, they said, like, oh, dude, like, this is what's going to happen if we keep fucking treating them like this.

Yeah, that is crazy and so violent and gruesome.

It's so violent and also so like they wanted to, they smashed their faces and they left their bodies like exposed.

Like it was so beyond.

And they didn't try to hide it.

That's right.

It's like that to me is like,

you know, you know, when like someone tries to to argue mental and mental uh that they were mentally ill, but they like tried to hide the murder?

Yeah.

It's like, no, you weren't because you knew it was wrong and so you hid it.

And like they didn't do that, which says to me something about them not being mentally competent.

They hid like children.

Yeah.

Like they waited though.

Yeah, they didn't run out of the house, which is just they were on the stairs.

Like they were right there.

They should have and could have run out.

Yeah.

But instead, they went to their room and locked the doors.

They went to bed and just like hung out.

Oh man, what happened to them in the orphanage?

Exactly.

Something fucked.

Well,

fuck, dude.

What are their names again?

Christine and Leah Pepin.

Fuck, dude.

Thank you.

No, thank you.

Thank us all.

Okay, we're back.

Karen, any updates?

There are no updates on this case.

I was actually just looking it up because we were talking about how disturbing this case is, how bizarre, and like the little details in it.

And Allison was like, this actually would make an amazing horror movie, like a A24 horror movie for today, where it's like, it absolutely would.

I know they've done the more like a sociological kind of study, you know, filmic version, but it's like, this should be a straight-up horror movie.

You want like supernatural.

Well, because they say that when it is a false ado, there's like a third personality that is between the two that's there.

Got it.

Which, just, I think you could take that theme and really run with it with those two sisters.

Yeah.

You know what I mean?

Getting abused by these, you know, you could make it seem like insanely monstrous, much worse than average, you know what I mean?

Like really set it up.

Yeah.

And then there's a question to ask of like, is mental illness like almost a different person inside of you or a different part of you?

You know, if you're into parts therapy, I mean.

Well, if you are your brain and your brain is doing something different in one area, right?

I mean, something the psychological part of you wouldn't want to do, then.

But also it's a thing of like so many parts of this story because it's like, it isn't just revenge.

They mutilated those people.

So there's more and we just will we ever know?

I wish there was an update to this case because would we ever know the real reason or the I would just love to be able to like track it in a real way.

Totally.

Well, you should write it.

I will.

I will make up the truth if I can't have it.

I wish you would.

A comedy horror movie?

Is that a thing?

It shouldn't be.

I don't think this one.

I think this one has to be real serious.

So that moment where they're like, we were expecting it.

And the cop opens the door.

All right, well, that's your new genre.

So scary.

Poor man's copyright.

You cannot make this movie.

People are like, 18 people have made it already.

Okay, now we're going to get into George's story.

This one, she covers the case of Sam Shepard.

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Goodbye.

All right.

Mine's fucked up, but you probably have heard of it.

But it's a good one, and I really wanted to do it.

So, Karen.

Yes.

On the night of July 3rd, 1954,

Dr.

Sam Shepard.

Oh, girl.

Hey.

Yes.

A neurosurgeon and his wife Marilyn, who was four months pregnant with their second kid.

They lived on a lakefront home in Bay Village, Ohio, which is a suburb of Cleveland.

Have you been to Cleveland?

I've never been to Cleveland.

I don't think I have.

We should do a show there.

So they're watching a movie together.

Sam Shepard falls asleep on the day bed in the living room, and Marilyn tucks their seven-year-old son into bed.

And then she goes to sleep in their bedroom.

And purportedly, in the early morning hours, Sam says he woke up on the daybed to the cries of his wife

screaming.

He runs upstairs and he sees an intruder in the bedroom and he gets knocked

unconscious.

Then he wakes up, he takes his wife's pulse, and then he sees the intruder downstairs and chases him out.

And they head down to the beach and there's a tussle and Sam Shepard's knocked

unconscious again.

Jesus.

And he wakes up.

He's like half in the lake.

His shirt's gone.

His watch is gone.

He freaks out.

He runs home.

Finds his wife in their bedroom bludgeoned to death.

And she's on the bed.

She'd been hit 35 times, 27 in her head.

She had a broken nose, a shattered skull.

There's gashes on her forehead and scalp.

A fingernail gets torn off, which always creeps me out.

And it's horrifying.

incisors are broken or ripped out, where she'd either bit her attacker or was, you know, hit so hard that her teeth came out.

There was evidence of a sexual assault only in that her pajama tap had been top had been pushed up around her neck, and one of her pajama legs had been taken off.

And she was posed with her legs spread open, but there was no sign of sex or rape.

And her body was angled in this crazy way at the end of the bed, where there was basically like a banister where it was like impossible to have raped her.

So she was pulled down there to make it look like sexual assault, but it wasn't.

And the bedroom's covered in blood and there's blood throughout the house.

So Sam Shepard, when he gets back from being unconscious on the beach, he doesn't call the cops.

He tested Marilyn's pulse.

And then at 5.40 a.m., he calls his neighbors basically saying, I think they've killed Marilyn.

So he calls his neighbors.

The neighbors come over.

I think one of them was the mayor of the town.

And they were over earlier that night for dinner.

They find Sam shirtless and his pants were wet with a bloodstain on the knee.

And he leaves them to go find Marilyn's body.

And then they call the cops.

You know what that makes me think of?

Jean Bonnet.

Exactly.

Okay.

So he's taken to the hospital.

He's examined by his brother, who's also a doctor.

That shouldn't be allowed.

Nope.

And then a green duffel bag bag with some of the trinkets that are stolen from their house is found close by the house outside in the woods.

And, like, weird stuff, you know, it looks like everyone knows what a staged robbery looks like.

It's, you know, drawers are pulled out, but neatly.

Nothing of value is taken, even though things of value are spread out, that sort of thing.

And so the police find inconsistencies with his story, and they also think it's outlandish.

So he's taken a trial on October 18th.

It's my sister's birthday,

1954.

And prosecutors find out that Shepard had a three-year-long extramarital affair with a nurse at the hospital where he worked at.

It was ongoing.

And they argue that the affair was his motive for killing his wife.

So she's pregnant, like he wants, he doesn't want this life anymore.

That's their argument.

And there were a lot of inconsistencies, one of which was that the family dog, and I think this is such a normal thing, was never heard barking and it always barked at intruders.

Yeah, I feel like neighbors say that all the time.

Also, their seven-year-old son, Sam,

was asleep in the other room during the whole thing and never woke up.

And I was like, Well, if she's screaming and he can hear her in the living room, then the kid woke up unless he doesn't remember it, or unless they were fighting all the time.

And so he never got out of bed for it.

I mean, or unless he's a heavy sleeper, like I'm a heavy sleeper, and you can scream, and I won't really hear it.

Yeah.

Unless my dog starts barking.

That's so sharp.

Yeah.

And create like jolting or whatever.

But I think like as children, I don't know.

Yeah, they're hard sleepers.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Other issues brought up at the trial was the fact that there was no sand in Sam Shepard's hair,

even though he claimed to be sprawled out on the beach.

There was no sign on the beach of a life or death struggle

where he claimed to tackle Marilyn's killer.

He's missing his t-shirts,

which the prosecutors speculated would have had some of his Sam Shepard's,

should contain some blood

from the alleged attack or struggle with the perpetrator.

Also, the blood evidence was fucked up.

So, Sam Shepard had a watch on,

and when the intruder first hit him, he still had the watch on, and he said that he went and took his wife's pulse.

But the watch was found in the green duffel bag.

So, after the scuffle at the beach, the intruder supposedly took the watch.

Why did he take it after the second struggle?

He had gone through Sam Shepard's wallet, supposedly.

So why didn't he take it after the first knockout if he's there for, you know, valuables?

Also,

so he took his wife's pulse and touched her face,

what he said had happened.

And he had no blood on his

body at all.

And he said he didn't clean himself.

So he should have had a transfer of blood to his fingers.

He picked up the phone after, and there's no blood on the phone, which is weird.

So like, why is it so cleaned up?

Let's see.

Someone said that they got sick of me saying da-da-da-da-da the other day.

Was it me?

Are you?

No.

So it doesn't matter.

Oh, good call.

Okay.

He says he didn't wash or clean up, but there was no like.

Also, you know what?

Let's listen to your fucking podcast and see what you say all the time and don't say you'd be amazed at the things that you say and don't say when you talk for an extended period of time fair enough all right and all i did is lose my fucking place

so now i'm yelling at you you're yelling at them but you're making eye contact with me so i'm really mad at you

why don't i turn it towards steven you're really

mad at

i'm triggered

okay

So da da da da.

Okay, oh fuck.

So there also should have been sand from the beach in his wristwatch if they had actually fought at the beach where he took his fucking watch and there fucking wasn't.

Sand in the wristwatch?

Yeah, like if they were fighting on the beach, he knocks him unconscious and then steals his watch, there should be traces of sand in the watch.

Yes or no?

Well, here's the thing though.

Every time I think of this, it's like, yes, except.

Is this a proven thing where it happens every time?

No, you're right.

Except when you add all the other evidence in, it just kind of, you know, is like a,

that looked filthy.

What you're saying.

Oh, I did poke.

I poke.

Oh, I thought it was two fingers.

No, it's just one.

That's not creepy.

But also,

and this is just from, I think I saw like two minutes of this story because I keep avoiding watching a thing on this story because I want to, I want to watch the whole thing and I want to read the Errol Morris book.

who Errol Morris is totally on Sam Shepard's side.

This is such a crazy, and

I'm leaving out a lot of the evidence that people use to say he didn't do it because I don't believe that.

This is such a Jack the Ripper scenario where there's so much evidence.

Yes.

But isn't there a thing where this was not a sandy beach?

This isn't the beach.

This is a small pebble rocky beach because this is Ohio.

So it's like a lakefront beach.

It's not tiny sand.

Well, what I love about this case and what I love about unsolved crimes is that that's a great argument and let's talk about that.

And then I want to be like, okay, but what about this?

And like, yeah, there's so many, and it's because it's so old too, there's no way for us to definitely, like, we can't definitively say, like, this is wrong and this is wrong and this is wrong.

So he must not have done it.

Or if they saw it once they smelled a rat, they didn't care what size the sand was because they were like, here's what adds up.

And here's what we need to add up so we can get this guy.

Well, that's a lot of people say is that they come to the conclusion and then they find evidence to support their conclusion.

Yeah.

And that's totally there.

And there was also a guy working as like a carpenter on at their house.

I didn't write about him.

He was obsessed with Marilyn.

Supposedly,

he ended up being a murderer and like was in taking advantage of women and was a rapist.

And like, there's all this shit that people are like, well, it was him, clearly.

But I feel like there's so much evidence that doesn't

okay.

I mean, seriously, it's like 1,000 paths.

Yeah.

Also, I never knew he was having an affair with a nurse.

I didn't know she was pregnant.

so the person he was having the affair with was pregnant no his wife was pregnant oh yeah the wife i mean who knows but it's just such a like that is such an obvious motive yes

i never knew there was another woman that's insane that's more of a that makes more sense to me than a guy who they are familiar with breaking in when he knows that sam is home That doesn't make any fucking sense.

If the person's, well, I'm going to get to that, but if the person's motive was robbery or rape, they wouldn't, they would know that sam was home and they wouldn't have done it then well and also if his motive was rape then wouldn't he have gotten wouldn't he have gotten away with a rape because if he's going to do all this other stuff and

and and brutally murder her yeah

i think the thing about that to me i wasn't sure what my point was there i get it what was most telling to me is that around her ankles were was blood like drag marks that showed that the person dragged her to the end of the bed to spread her legs apart.

And there was no way he could have raped her because what's it called?

The banister, the bed frame, like headboard, a footboard, footboard, bar bannister was there.

Like he couldn't have gotten on top of her.

Yes.

And there were drag marks showing that he purposely put her in that position.

And so like, why would he not have sexually assaulted her if that was, why would he break in?

to be to rob and then put her in that position without the intent of sexually assaulting her or why would because he was a she because it was the other woman that broke in

and went berserker and went crazy and was like filled with rage.

And he had tried to break up with the other woman.

He was like,

My wife is pregnant.

I can't do this with you anymore, even though I promised you the moon and the stars were not doing this.

And she went home one night and was just like, guess what?

It's fatal attraction time.

I would agree with that if the injuries weren't as brutal as they were.

And she, who seemed like a badass, wasn't, couldn't fight back enough to have enough.

Like, I don't.

The woman who was pregnant?

Yeah.

She, she wasn't a,

yeah.

The brutality of the murder was overkill.

And I don't, it didn't seem like something that, you know, someone her equal would have been able to do.

Oh, like, cause they, they would have had to really overpower her.

She was overpowering.

Now, exhibit A, the picture of the, the family I was just talking about when the

sisters who fucking decimated these two women i mean if we're gonna get sued let's get sued maybe it was a seven-year-old son

like let's get sued

my favorite murder trying to get sued

2017 trying to get sued since jump we're in a new apartment and we're trying to get sued

jesus christ it's the seven-year-old son he's not a heavy sleeper he went down to the beach he's a heavy hitter he shook all the sand out of the father's watch

oh no Okay, this is the episode.

Sorry.

Just hate us.

Sorry.

All right.

You should be.

I am.

Genuinely sorry.

No, you shouldn't be ever.

On this podcast.

This podcast is not a place for sorries.

Except for

sorry.

Except for the best kind of sorry.

Which is not sorry.

Okay, right.

Bye, bye, bye.

Okay.

Would have been, I'm going to fucking do it constantly now, you motherfucker.

Okay, there's no

cut, cut to the tweet, and it's from George's mother.

I didn't even know you knew how to treat, mom.

Tweet, mom.

You tweeted.

This is a new one.

Did she see that if my bunch of people looked at my dad's Twitter?

Cause he like tweeted something at me and I retweeted it.

And it's all just the whole, every single tweet is a tweet at me, like being like, go, Georgia.

Like, that sounds fun.

He does not tweet anything unless it's like supportive at me and people lost their minds.

Which is sweet.

That's cute.

Okay, so he had no blood on him, despite despite the fact that they supposedly got into altercations twice.

And there should have been blood on his hands and fingers if they had actually fought.

And

wristwatch in the green bag, no sand, blood stains, should have.

Okay, so there were blood spatters on the watch, but not stains.

Oh, yeah.

Okay, so there's this article article on Crime Lab, Crime Library by Greg O.

McCraw McCrary, who was a former FBI profile who's like the dude who like knows some shit, who like didn't come to a conclusion until he read everything.

He wasn't biased.

So he says that also

importance in analyzing this crime and crime scene is to consider the amount of time it took for the offender to stage the scene.

And I think this stuff is really interesting in

like a matter of

reading any crime in general, like any kind of these crimes.

He says crime scenes are high-risk environments and none more so than a homicide scene.

Offenders typically spend no more time than necessary at a crime scene for fear of being interrupted or caught.

Consequently, there's a high degree of correlation between the amount of time an offender spends at a crime scene and the offender's familiarity and comfortability with that scene.

The more time an offender spends at a crime scene, the higher the probability that the offender is comfortable and familiar with that scene.

Offenders who spend a great deal of time at the crime scene often have a legitimate reason for being at the scene and therefore are not worried about being interrupted or found at the scene.

Your face is pissed.

No, no, no.

I just, now I'm back to that, the handyman.

Oh.

But why?

But

he looks through a basic window and sees Sam Shepard sleeping on a couch in the house.

Why risk that?

Well, because then it's even more of a victory.

It makes me think of like the East Area Rapist or or whatever where it's like part of his attack was knowing that the husband was going to be humiliated and in total psychic emotional pain over what was going on and maybe that was part of the risk and part of the high for him okay especially because he was had already been a rapist which is crazy i don't know if he already was yet because i didn't look it up okay

because i am sold on this guy being on sam shepard being the murderer but i a lot of people are can be unsold very quickly.

Okay.

He says the offender will often manipulate the victim's discovery.

Oh, here's another.

Okay.

This is the Jean Bonnet thing.

The offender will often manipulate the victim's discovery by a neighbor or family member.

So, yeah, Jean Bonnet calling or the Ramsays calling their friend to come over and find the body as they did with their friend.

What was his name, Scout?

The next door neighbor.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Before the police, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

So finding, letting someone else find the body to like almost be a witness

as well is a fucking thing that they do.

Yeah.

All right.

So after deliberating for four days, the jury finds Shepard guilty of second-degree murder.

He's sentenced to life in prison.

Then on July 30th in 1961,

good old F.

Lee Bailey.

Oh, yeah, that guy.

Who was he played by in OJ then The Simpsons?

Nathan Lane.

Yes.

Yes.

So good.

Amazing.

So he takes over, which is like, oh, everyone's fucked.

He's chief counsel.

So Bailey petitions for a writ of habeas corpus.

And I wrote something we should ask Guy Branham about.

Isn't that Produce the Body?

No.

I don't know.

I was wrong recently, so I'm not going to.

It is.

Habeas corpus.

I don't know.

Stephen?

Stephen?

It is.

We talked talked about it on that episode.

Good.

Produce the body.

Okay.

By the United States Disrecorder.

It could be a version of that.

I am wrong.

You're probably right.

Who called the trial a mockery of justice and that Shepherds

shredded the 14th Amendment's right to due process, which is kind of fair.

The fucking media was like all over the place.

It was a carnival atmosphere.

The judge refused.

Fucking Stephen's pointing at Karen and shaking his head.

Correct.

He gave me the old winky wink.

Winky won.

And then, yep.

You know what I'm saying?

The old two fingers underneath.

Oh, the old.

So Dr.

Shocker said that the carnival atmosphere.

No.

No.

Don't look that up.

He didn't.

He refused to sequester the jury.

and told and did not order them to ignore and disregard media reports of the case.

And this was fucking next.

Like this is, this is basically the Simpsons of the 60s and 50s.

Like, this was a huge trial because this, like, upstanding doctor in this nice fucking area whose parents were also like well-to-do and well-known.

Yeah.

And his wife gets brutally murdered.

Sorry, did you say this was 68?

In 61 is when Effley Bailey took over the case.

Oh, so this is late 50s, early 60s?

64 is when the crime happened.

Holy shit.

I thought it was, for some reason, I thought it was like, I thought it was Manson.

Yeah, yeah.

It somehow seems that way.

Yeah.

It does.

But I think it's when they were, it was still the like post-war, like, gee golly, we're going to fucking have a normal family and something as, you know, in the 70s, they were, you kind of, this happened a lot, but not here.

Okay.

So

he, uh,

okay, so Shepard served a 10 year, 10 years of his sentence and he gets released because Effley Bailey gets him out.

And when he gets released, he marries a woman named Adrienne Teben Teben Jonas.

She's a German woman.

They had been corresponding during his imprisonment.

You know, she was like, I saw this guy in the newspaper.

Yeah, he's hot.

This is just like out of nowhere.

It doesn't matter, but I thought it was so interesting.

So

her half-sister is the wife of Joseph Goebbels, the Nazi professor.

Yep.

Her half-sister

married, like the number four Nazi.

Yep.

Was married to him.

What the fuck?

I mean, I think he was killed in Nuremberg by then, but

fuck.

Fuck.

You know, like, you're not like a chill person if your sister

gets married to that half-sister, whatever.

Let's just guess that you're not like super open-minded.

Right.

You can't.

There's no way she was like a conscientious objector

to fucking lawyer.

There's a, there's a, there is a percentage, but it is a 7%.

Not when they, when their sister marries Joseph Goebbels.

Goebbels.

Goebbels.

That's heavy duty.

Isn't that not a good association?

No, that, that, that has nothing to do with the case.

I just found it very interesting.

All right.

So this guy who's the former FBI profile, Greg McCrary, he was involved as an expert witness for the third trial, which was a civil suit brought on by Sam Shepard Jr.

in 1999.

Go, wow.

Saying that his father had been wrongfully imprisoned.

Like he was suing them to be like.

His dad was still in prison?

No.

He was just trying to clear his dad's name.

His dad died in 1970.

I was going to

end with that.

But in 99, the son who like clearly had some fucking Stockholm syndrome, am I wrong?

Well, I mean, I mean, we're getting sued by him anyways.

Let's fucking.

Let's just really go for it.

Well, seriously, if that happened and your father was like, like, believe me, I didn't do it as the child.

It's like those girls on the staircase.

As the child of that person, you're like, he absolutely didn't do it.

I need to believe him.

This is my last living parent.

Something so horrifying happened to my mom.

It can't be the worst thing, which is what everyone is saying it is.

It can't be that.

Especially when

since the 60s, you've been insisting it wasn't.

And you can't be like, I was wrong.

Dad admitted it to me.

And all of like popular culture is insisting that he was.

I mean, there's just as much evidence that he did it as there is that he didn't do it.

Like this is definitely one of those, this is like a Jean Benet opinion case.

There's no answer.

So he loses that case.

And so Greg McCrary says, when you look at the case closely and distill it to its essence, you can see that it's nothing more than a staged domestic homicide.

And as for the murder weapon.

That's sorry.

That's that expert guy.

Yeah.

Okay.

He

examined all the evidence, and it's a really interesting crime library article about it.

As for the murder weapon,

it's just one small sentence note at the end of a police report saying that a small lampshade was found on a bookcase in a room on the second floor.

That no lamp was found in the murder room, but Sam's notebook lay on the nightstand ready for late night calls.

So how would he have taken notes without any lights?

And

also a local lamp fixer dude said that days before he had fixed and returned a lamp to their residence.

And I'm guessing it wasn't found, but there's not a lot of information on that.

But this dude said that.

All right, so here's the other weird fucking not

having anything to do with this.

But so Shepard's third wife, Colleen Strickland Shepard, is the daughter of a professional wrestler.

Oh, bring it full circle in my relationship with Vince of the We Watch Wrestling podcast.

So George Strickland introduced Shepard to professional wrestling and trained him to be a wrestler.

He made his debut in August 1969 at the age of 45 as, quote, killer Sam Shepard.

What?

Yeah.

And I'm sorry.

Yeah.

What?

After he's out of jail.

Uh-huh.

And he drew a huge crowd.

I'm looking for Vince, Vince's, I said, hey, do you know anything about this dude?

And he was like, here's this.

Like, he just didn't care.

What, was he just broke and needed money?

Or, like, yes,

there's a really great episode of The Memory Palace, which is one of my favorite podcasts that has like this just quick, beautiful

the way he does.

Uh, I think it's episode 86 about what his life might have been like at that point, which was he was broke, he was trying to have a private practice, no one wanted to go to him.

Oh, that's right, he married this woman whose dad was a professional wrestler and he drew huge crowds.

Oh my god, I know.

So, and his like, I think his dad committed suicide, his mom died, like, all this crazy shit.

Um,

so he was a wrestler for a short time.

He wrestled over 40 matches.

Um, and Vince says, I believe he came up with the mandible claw, which was eventually made popular by man can

Mick Foley, so my favorite wrestlers.

I love mankind, do you?

He's such a sweet angel.

I saw that documentary about him knowing nothing about wrestling at all.

And I was like, every time after that, I would just be like, What about mankind?

Oh my god, I love him, Mick Foley, angel baby, love him, he's so sweet.

Um, so he has this crazy, fucked up, and in the in the memory palace, he's like, everyone who's watching him fight wonders if he's thinking about the night he fought his wife, like, it's crazy.

Oh, God, I know, I didn't even think about that.

That's why he got a big fucking crowd.

Oh, it's so dark.

So, he wrestled over 40 matches before his death in April 1970 from liver failure.

And we don't fucking know.

Georgia, that was so awesome.

Was it?

Oh my god.

Thank you.

There were so many things.

Thank you.

Now we have to read that book by Errol Morris because Errol Morris is convinced that it was that he didn't do it, that the whole thing was like a setup and that the guy that

wrote Fatal Vision,

whose name I can't remember, basically exploited every tiny thing so that he could make money money because he knew and see, I don't know the timeline, but basically that he was copying the guy that

wrote Helter Skelter and he wanted that Helter Skelter money.

And so he basically went in and made it seem like

he was guilty, I guess.

That's the fucking owl versus staircase argument.

You know what I mean?

It's just this thing of like,

you can be adamant about something and then there are these little pieces of evidence that you just can't explain away.

Yeah.

So I don't, and same with Jean Bonnet.

Like, I love the, I prefer the theory that it was in the family in the same way I prefer that Sam Shepard did it, but I would love to hear why he didn't.

And I'd love to hear the evidence that they didn't.

But then I will always come back with you, but with to you with like, okay, but how do you explain this?

You know, it's just, that's why I love cold cases.

It's so much more.

There's no period on it.

Yeah, that's true.

Well, also just the idea, like, it seems like he has this perfect storm of people in his life where everybody could be guilty.

Like, what I would love to now know is the nurse that he was having the affair with.

I would just love a, oh, yes, she did have a short stint, you know, after coming at somebody with a knife.

She did kill her second and third husband.

Yeah, just something like that where you're just like, now it's her, now it's her.

Now it's her.

I never even thought of her.

That's fun.

I mean, you know, too.

It makes me think of that Harrison Ford movie.

Spoiler, spoiler, spoiler,

alert.

Well, the fugitive, that was a TV show, right?

That was made based on Sam Shepard.

And it was a Harrison Ford movie.

It's one of the best movies.

Really?

You've never seen The Fugitive?

No!

You better fucking see it

when I leave tonight.

Okay.

They say that that clouded so many people's images because they don't remember what's from The Fugitive and what's not.

Yeah, that's right.

Because it's so similar where that's a guy running because his wife is murdered and he is so, looks so guilty that he knows he can only run.

And he's a doctor.

Well, it's based on him.

Well, so the other thing about it is that that, that evening, it was July 3rd, they had their neighbors over who ended up finding, you know, he called to come over and look at the body.

They had them over for dinner that night and they said that they were loving and sweet and wonderful.

And then Sam Shepard falls asleep on, like they see him fall asleep on the couch.

And it's like, okay, is that legitimate?

You can argue that they were in love still, or you could argue that he was trying to get evidence that they were happy and normal and he was sleeping.

And the, what makes me think it's that is that he was also fucking another woman, yeah.

So they're not happy and loving, and everything's fine, and he falls asleep on the couch, he's fucking someone else at work, and he needs them to see have his fucking alibi.

Yep, and maybe, maybe the wife is happy and loving because she doesn't know about the other woman.

So she's having a totally different

relationship and a different experience,

And he's this crazy mastermind.

I remember also seeing something in the,

whatever that like very short amount that I saw in the

some documentary about it and then turned off.

But one of the things was when they brought him into the hospital, like after,

you know, he was, he was brought in and his brother examined him and all that kind of stuff, that he was completely stone-faced, emotionless.

No matter who talked to him, he was not crying.

He wasn't shaking.

It was as if he was just kind of like there.

Well, he could have been in shock.

Now I'm arguing for him.

No, I know he could have just been in shock.

He could have been in shock.

Well, the other thing is, too, that they named all his injuries and shit, but they were all on the left side of his body, which could either mean that the fucking killer was left-handed or he just took his right hand and beat the shit out of himself with his

right hand.

What are the odds that you'd only have

bruises on one side?

Yeah.

Unless.

Unless his arm, fucking, he bashes in his arm and he can only hit with his.

I mean, so fun.

It's not fun.

It's horrible.

Marilyn, fucking bless her soul.

Well, it sucks.

It's the

fact is horrifying, the theorizing and the possibility, because these are people's real lives.

Like,

aside from the victims,

there's the possibility of another victim, which is this doctor who people are, you can see it either way.

Yeah.

Like the victim of circumstance, circumstance, which is the most romantic.

I mean, there was a TV show on for what, 10 years or however long that show was on.

And that movie, I still can't believe you haven't seen it.

It's truly one of the best movies.

I'm going to watch it as soon as it's so great.

The

Jones.

Yeah.

I mean, there has to be a couple of these people who are found guilty or who we all think are guilty that we're fucking not.

And we'll, and there's still a hundred pieces of evidence that I could argue that makes them look guilty.

Yeah.

And those that sucks.

And we just never know who those people are unless DNA comes along and exonerates them.

Some kind of weird, like, we grab the air in the room and that somehow in the future proves this or that.

Some future air, my air DNA theory.

Dude, I love it.

But it's, it's exactly like the beginning of Shawshank Redemption, where it's like, yes, he was drunk.

Yes, he was angry at his wife.

Yes, she was having an affair.

He still didn't kill her, but

he goes to jail for it.

And he couldn't look guiltier, and there's nothing he can do.

And it's just that kind of like, it does happen.

I've thought about that, like with Vince, of like, I almost, I don't know what happened.

I almost dropped something on my head the other day, and I was like, Vince is sitting here with me.

Like, I wonder who wouldn't believe him that he said that I fucking dropped something on my stupid head.

Yeah.

On your own head.

On my own stupid head.

Right.

And like, except for he can't because you've talked so much about thinking he might kill you.

You've actually made your own like insurance that he that he will be arrested and i will be the first one to ring the doorbell be like dude i'm so sorry but i simply must you're under arrest you're you're under citizens arrest citizens arrest you're under podcast arrest vince has i just want to clarify vince has never done anything to me or at me or near me that is one of vince is the guy who this is basic this is basic anytime we're anywhere you guys came to my rap party the other night you were my guests at my rap party.

And Vince is like, as you and I are hot gossing, Vince is like, what can I get you?

No.

We just walked in.

I mean, you guys have just walked in.

Do you need another diet cut?

Like, he's just.

He's the greatest.

So it would be such a turn if he killed you.

It would be funny.

It's the perfect.

He's building the perfect.

I mean, I would be surprised.

I would be like, whoa.

But in that last moment, you're like, you know what?

I got to give this up to you.

Go ahead.

And he's like, she didn't fight.

You earned this.

She laughed because she's a monster.

Oh, my God.

This is such a horrible conversation.

This is one of the greatest.

Okay, we are back, Georgia.

Any updates on this case?

Oh, my gosh.

What a famous case.

No updates.

Still haven't seen The Fugitive.

I will remedy that this weekend.

I swear.

I swear.

I mean, truly, I would put the fugitive up there with Pride and Prejudice in terms of a watchability, repeat watchability movie.

Yes.

Okay.

It's just taught.

It is, it snaps along.

Okay, I'm in.

I'm in.

Love a Harrison Ford.

I love Harrison Ford.

Like, who doesn't?

Get in there with him.

Yeah, I'll watch it.

Okay, I promise I'll watch it this weekend, which doesn't matter for today's episode, but no, it does.

This is actually a private conversation we should be having off mic.

That's right.

But at least I got my promise out of Georgia.

Okay, so now we're going to do the retitle.

This episode, which was a great episode, by the way, I love we both compliment each other.

We both are very impressed by the other person's storytelling ability.

And finally, at episode 55, we're

fittering it out.

It only took us about a year or so.

And we start to hit our stride.

So this episode originally was titled, Let's Hear Your Podcast, The Argument Starter.

Right.

So maybe let's do it a little nicer.

If we were naming it today, maybe we would call it the Furniture Hour.

That's nice.

Because of my new Ikea furniture.

That's right.

We really spent some time talking about it.

We could also title it Real Up and Arms About Woosta.

That was the beginning, I think, about, yeah, about corrections corners, about pronouncing cities.

Like, spell it like you say it.

That was the beginning at the dawning of that.

Yeah.

Where also it's like, that's one of those cities that's nothing like it, and people are real aggressive about when you get it wrong.

They're tough there.

I don't want, those are people I don't want to piss off, too.

So, like, can you just change the spelling or the I don't want to piss you off at the same time.

I don't know you.

I don't know your city.

Sorry.

I don't know you.

Just like you would, you would mispronounce Sebastopol if you came around where I live.

That's true.

That's true.

Good luck with that.

Oh, my goodness.

And then we could also call it, of course,

which is, I still use that to this day.

Yeah.

You're trying to read and talk and podcast all at the same time.

Sometimes you need a little like hold music.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's what I do.

Well,

thank you guys for listening.

Yeah, this was a great one.

We hope you liked it too.

Yeah.

And we'll let Elvis say goodbye.

Yeah.

Good boy.

Ladies and gentlemen,

stay sexy and don't get murdered.

Bye.

Elvis, you want a cookie?

Oh, yeah.

You do?

He does.

Bye.

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Goodbye.