490 - Trust Me

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Goodbye.

Hello, and welcome to my favorite murder.

That's Georgia Hardstar.

That's Karen Kilgara.

And we have a very special show for you today because for the last five years, our guests have hosted the podcast, Trust Me, Cults, Extreme Belief, and Manipulation, where they dig into the psychology of cults and how they operate.

Each week, they speak with guests who've escaped cults like Heavensgate, the Manson family, QAnon, and of course, Nexium.

Please welcome to the show, the hosts of Exactly Right's newest podcast, Trust Me, Lola Blanc, and Megan Elizabeth.

Hi, yay, Yay.

Welcome.

Thank you.

Welcome, like here and here.

Thank you.

So exciting.

It's very exciting.

It's very exciting to see you.

Yeah.

It's very exciting to see your outfits today.

Thank you so much.

We worked really hard on that.

Really nice.

You guys showed up with the outfits.

I love it.

That's so funny.

I probably shouldn't say this because then I'm going to get a bunch of DMs, but you dropped into my DMs on Instagram and I knew your podcast and loved it.

And you're like, we're leaving this network.

What's up?

And I'm I'm like,

hell yeah.

Immediately.

I mean, it's such a good fit.

I don't know.

I feel like we're so at home.

Everyone here is so great.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I'm happy to have you guys.

And it's such a good podcast.

You guys,

I mean, like, it's so impressive.

There's a lot of them out there, but I think it really does.

It raises the bar for the genre, the way you guys talk about it and the empathy you can talk about it from.

I mean, we'll get into all of it, but congratulations.

And we're so happy to have you.

Thank you.

Oh, my gosh.

Let's start off with the way you guys.

Shall we start with the way you guys start your podcast by discussing the cultiest thing you've got going on this week?

Yeah.

I'm so excited to think of one.

Okay, Megan, do you want to share?

My cultiest thing of the week is there is this new TikTok cult that's going around.

It's called Children of the Waning Star.

Waning Star, actually.

Yes, thank you.

All right.

You're in that.

I'm just obsessed with TikTok.

Okay, great.

So you've seen that people are putting in the like star and the fingerprint emoji.

And then immediately rumors are starting of like people are sacrificing their pets and all of these horrible things.

And at the end of the day, none of that is actually happening.

But the TikTok algorithm in itself is a cult.

And all of the most extreme things that it can get its hand on, it just, it's hands.

The algorithm has hands.

They have multiple hands.

And Miriam has sticky hands too.

It just pushes it out.

And the more extreme a belief, the more extreme a piece of news, whether it be real or fake, boom, it's out there the end.

And now people think that this is a real cult.

So, you know,

we try to keep it topical.

And that's what's happening this week.

That's interesting.

It's so interesting because we talk about cults a lot, but then there's a whole part of the internet that's so obsessed with cults that they'll get fixated on deciding that something is a cult, right?

And then they kind of become their own cult because they're obsessed with taking down this cult.

And a lot of the time it's completely exaggerated or just like taken out of content, you know, that kind of thing.

And yeah, yeah, it'll be like a small comment and then that'll be the news story.

It's just like the problem is the like solution, not the problem.

Yes, exactly.

Exactly.

In this particular case, although we do see a lot of real online cults popping up left and right, which I get into.

There's so many.

And it's so wild to start to understand that people live so much online these days that to someone like me who the internet started when I was in my mid-20s, so it's just like, take it or leave it.

But there's people who live on it constantly so that idea of somehow suddenly following someone being with them every day like that getting kind of inundated by that is very common these days.

Totally.

Yeah.

We're like at the peak loneliness in America like ever in history.

So of course we're going to look online for community and for some source of identity.

And there are so many hucksters out there ready and willing to sell you on something to provide that answer to you.

Absolutely.

Like podcasts.

Yeah.

For example, yeah.

The time is now.

Molo, what's your cultiest thing?

I'm kind of stealing it from Megan, actually.

Okay.

So I'm always fascinated by the way that cults and authoritarian regimes love to limit evidence-based information.

They like to attack science and make you basically stop believing in reality so that they can fit their own truth in there.

We know that that's happening in the current Trump administration with 402 attacks on science.

And there are a number of reasons for that.

But actually connecting to that is a poem that somebody from Megan's cult that she grew up in, which we will talk about,

wrote who has been accused of.

A lot of I don't, I'm not sure if he wrote it, he shared it.

He shared it, he shared it.

Yes, but he's just been accused of acting inappropriately with minors.

And the two by twos, which is my cult, love a good poem.

And by good poem, I mean bad poems.

Creepy ass poem.

So go ahead, though.

Okay, I'm only going to read the first half because this will take too long.

But okay.

If you know of a thing that will darken the joy of a man, a woman, a girl, or a boy that will wipe out a smile or the least way annoy, or be the thing they're hoped to destroy, the best thing to do is forget it.

All caps.

Oh.

If you know of a thing that will sadden the heart or hinder any from doing their part or cause an old wound to sting or to smart, don't be the one to give it a start.

Be the one who can forget it.

All caps.

All caps.

It goes on.

This whole time, I haven't needed to be on pharmaceuticals for my crazy.

You just forget your problem.

Why is this the first time hearing about this?

Damn it.

Doi.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

To me, it's just like, it's so fascinating because, of course, somebody who's been accused of something is like, well, don't think those negative thoughts.

Just forget it.

Don't worry about the things that maybe make you uncomfortable or are very alarming or a crime.

Just forget it.

Just because something rhymes doesn't mean it's right.

And that is the rhyme as reason effect.

That really is.

Really?

Yeah.

Shut up.

Tell me more.

Oh, that's a cognitive bias.

We're talking about the world.

Morning Knoxy.

Amanda Knox.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

She talked about that on our show at one point.

Oh, my God.

The easier information is to process, the more likely we are to believe it's true.

So rhyming can actually make things feel more true.

It's like the headline.

If that's salacious, it doesn't matter what's in the article.

It's just like the thing that you see first is like the rhyme or love.

Love don't fit.

You must equip.

Oh, I love that.

We're full of things like that.

Actual information.

Yeah, right, right.

What's that like?

What's your cult thinking?

Okay, my cult, and you could also call it alcoholism probably, is rose.

It's weird how obsessed I've become with it as like what it means to my day.

I'm not trying to drink it all the time, but when I do, I feel like I'm having a better day.

Yeah.

And it's become, I don't even want any other alcohol.

If there's no alcohol in the house, I won't drink it.

But if there's rose,

Does that sound like I drink too much?

Well, how much do you drink once you finally make your decision?

Not like a can.

Okay.

That's the other thing, too.

Like a can of wine.

Listen, I use Diet Coke as my cultiest thing one week.

And I already shared with y'all, you guys have a plethora of Diet Coke in the refrigerator here at this beautiful studio.

We all belong to the

culti Diet Coke.

We do.

And yeah, I think that brands or things can become culti and they give us comfort.

They give us.

Oh, we get, we have to get this loyalty.

Yeah.

So if someone offers me a Diet Pepsi, I'm like, excuse me.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, excuse me.

Exactly.

It says something about the user or the person who, you know, it says something about me that I'm not.

If I'm drinking a beer, that's one thing.

If I'm drinking a rose, to me, it's a totally different thing.

As someone who has never had alcohol in her life due to my Mormon upbringing,

I cannot relate to this, but I like how it sounds.

Yeah, it looks, it looks good.

And as someone who's no longer allowed to have alcohol because I've had too much of it,

I also like how it sounds.

It's all very, very familiar.

Well, I mean, because I was kind of, I couldn't decide because I think there's a lot of things I do in my life that are very culty or like I love to fall into a little rhythm and habit that's like something I really can do and rely on.

So then it's like, great, it'll be mindless.

I'll just, every morning I'll have a vanilla latte or every blah, I'll do this and it'll get me through.

But lately, and it going back to TikTok, shopping for clothes on TikTok where there's no way the size is going to be right.

There's no way the material is going to be what I want it to be or what the picture looks like.

It's truly rolling the dice Las Vegas style and knowing you're going to lose and doing it anyway.

I ordered a shirt that I tried on this morning that I couldn't stop laughing because it felt like it was made of wax.

It was the weirdest texture.

It was the where I was like, well, it was only $9.

So what was I thinking that I was just going to get a gorgeous blouse for my next dinner party?

And I keep going back.

I won't be convinced that it's going to not work the next time.

okay but that's because sometimes it does work and that's intermittent reinforcement yes which is how cult works yes when you get a nine dollar shirt that is actually a hundred percent and you're like wait you can't find these for eighty dollars in america like there is a treasure hunt aspect to it you get addicted to like is this gonna be the good one yes yeah usually not right yes almost never and that dopamine hit too like I have the shopping dopamine hit of like find like with vintage shopping like finding a treasure yeah but there's been so much trash and I, you know, and that doesn't matter.

I'll still, yeah, never.

Yeah.

It's hard to adjust.

I'm obsessed.

Well, amazing.

I mean, like, if you liked what we just did right there, guys,

you're going to love, you're going to love Lola and Megan show.

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Goodbye.

So let's talk about everyone's favorite thing, red flags.

Yes, yes.

What are some red flags you can tell us about?

Like the thing, intermittent reinforcement.

And then the rhyming thing was called.

The rhyme as reason effectively.

Thank you.

So red flags.

Yes, yes.

Love bombing.

Yeah.

Huge.

That'll probably be the first thing you'll notice.

How does that look when it's not in a relationship?

Because I know love bombing when it's, you know, in a relationship, but like personal romantic.

It'll just look like, oh my gosh, you're exactly a right fit for this.

Lots of personal attention, lots of everything you've been wanting and needing.

Who doesn't love personal attention?

It can come from a group.

It can come from a person.

And it's very addicting.

Yeah, I mean, the term, I believe, comes from cults originally.

It was a tactic used to recruit people where like the girls would go out and be like, oh my gosh, they're punishing.

Yeah.

Yes.

So, yeah, I agree with that one.

I think also when, like, okay, so I did the, can we talk about Scientology?

Yeah, I'm about to talk about Scientology.

I did the like Scientology stress test one time.

And what the result, first of all, the IQ test was nonsense.

It was completely like, it didn't make sense.

It wasn't based on IQ.

No.

But at the end of it, they basically like told me how in danger I am and how they could provide the solution.

They were like, you are so anxious.

And I was like, yes, true.

However, I'm not going to pay all of the money you are telling me to pay to go to your courses.

There's like a breaking down of like, oh no, there's something wrong with you.

And then providing the solution.

And that's, I think, why these online cults are really powerful too, because they offer easy solutions.

So a lot of them start off with diets.

We're going to, this is our little like shake regimen that I made up.

And you're going to love it.

And you're like, I, I want to lose some weight, let's say.

Okay, I'm on my shake regimen and I'm losing my weight.

Yay.

Suddenly, weirder and weirder things start to be introduced, but you've already been primed that it's a working, normal thing to do.

And now you're in a group of other people who are doing it who are also like, no, it seems normal.

That's, I've never thought of that being like a gateway to something that has nothing to do with nutrition and diet and stuff.

Yeah.

And we wonder sometimes if they're, if it's conscious that they went that way, or because like once you're hungry,

you're more susceptible to

slow blood sugar going then when people do accept you you're more excited right it's like the lows and the highs are lower and higher exactly but food is just a really easy way to grab people because it's a need that we all you know like it's it's an easy one so we can see that a lot playing out yeah yeah and whenever there is a strong um inclination to make you feel afraid of like a different group

that's like a huge one because it that fear is something that can then be capitalized on to, again, offer you a solution to all of that fear you're feeling.

Right.

And to like, to prove you right because other people around you feel the same way.

So, yeah.

Yeah.

And to just simplify that and even further, it's like, even if you're in a narcissistic or abusive, which we know

narcissistic gets thrown around a lot, but I love it.

Yeah.

But if you're in a narcissistic or abusive relationship, very soon after the love bombing phase, it's going to be like, your friends are awful.

isolating you.

Isolating you.

So you can kind of see it play out on a stage that might be more normal or grounded for people because who hasn't, who hasn't gotten involved with somebody like that?

Yeah.

And my friends are crazy.

So if someone else points out like that fact, it's true.

That's what I love about them.

Exactly.

It's so interesting.

It sounds so similar to a romantic relationship with the love bombing and the like abusive controlling stuff.

Are certain people more susceptible to that, do you think, than others?

I'm such a cynic.

I can't imagine, but that's part of it, right?

Like that's what could be used against me.

I mean, exactly.

What could be used against you is a cult of cynical people

who are like, I would never join a cult.

Right.

The Goths.

Let's talk about it together for hours on end.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, we like, that's something we talk about a lot, but

what we find over and over and over again is there are all kinds of people that join.

Women seem to be more open to talking about it, but men also join.

And it's really more about where they are in their life that makes them maybe a little bit more vulnerable to manipulation in that moment.

But it's not necessarily a personality trait that recurs.

Yeah.

If you're going through a breakup, if you're going through financial hardship, if you've lost somebody, just be really careful because people...

prey upon you

because you're looking for an answer.

You're not grounded like you usually would.

Or you're just young and open-minded because people get targeted just because they're young a lot.

You know,

that's right.

So this show has been going on for five years.

So crazy to hear you say it.

I cannot believe it's been

five years.

What the hell?

And you guys kicked it off by talking, Lola, about your background.

And so, do you want to tell us a little bit about that?

Yeah.

So, I was raised just a regular Mormon, just a mainstream Mormon, which is not the polygamous kind for those who get confused about that.

And

after my parents got divorced, my mom was a single lady who had been excommunicated from the church and had gone through this whole process of rebuilding her, repenting, basically.

And a man targeted her at a Mormon singles dance

and spent several months basically convincing her.

She didn't believe him at first, of course, but spent several months preying upon her Mormon beliefs to convince her that he was the new prophet of God.

Wow.

And the context for this, which I think is really important, is that one, the founder of Mormonism, Joseph Smith,

was a guy in the 1800s who just was like, like, I had a vision, I got the new church, I'm going to do it.

And so the whole foundation of the religion is basically like a guy being like, I had a vision.

So it leaves room for other guys to come along.

And also there's a part of the belief system where there's like part of the scripture was hidden away until the end times.

So there have been numerous men at this point who've been like, I found the hidden scripture called the sealed portion.

And to make matters matters significantly worse, maybe the most important detail here is that my mom had had a dream prior to meeting this man about a man that she would meet.

And it felt really significant.

And he had this very specific look.

She said he looked like Brendan Fraser.

And she meets this guy at the dance and he looks just like the guy from her dream.

And she's been in this Mormon culture where dreams are really important.

And signs from God are really important.

So he was able to prey upon that.

He recognized that, and over time, he did indoctrinate her.

And we were eventually separated at his command.

And she had a very harrowing experience on her own, which we don't necessarily need to get into today, but we did get out, and we are much better now.

And we talk about it very openly.

And now, my mom is an advocate for people who are in cults and leaving cults.

Wow, incredible.

That's amazing.

Wow.

That's really something as kind of like you through the eyes of a child kind of like had that experience, which I think I wonder the difference there because an adult's going in with the ego of I would never be convinced or you can't, I'm not going to do something I wouldn't believe, as opposed to kind of the open mind of a child of like, I'm seeing all of this.

And what, like, do you think that you had an insight that maybe your mother didn't have because you were young and less experienced?

No, but

I will say I had witnessed my mom.

My mom is like, just sees the best in everyone.

And there are like

certain just like antisocial personality types are really drawn to people like her.

So I had seen a couple of people already kind of target her in the past.

So I was, I was very, I was skeptical of him at first, but I think it was just because of that experience.

And then the minute I like found their letter, their emails to each other about how he was a prophet, I was like, oh, sick, he's a prophet.

This is so cool.

No prophet.

yeah.

And then I was chosen by God too to like help bring about the end of days, you know.

So that was cool.

Yes.

And that's on our first episode that we ever did.

We go fully into that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

What was the process of like extracting yourself and your own and becoming your own person outside of that?

You know,

big question.

Tell us step by step.

Well, she actually, so a man, she was,

what is the best way to phrase this?

So there had been men that had come to where she was staying, where she'd been told to stay.

And there was a man who had come there basically because the prophet was like, hey, you can go.

There's this woman you can go take advantage of.

He

saw what she was living through and broke down crying and got her out.

Oh my God.

Which is not usually how things go.

But he just felt so bad.

He's actually still in our lives.

But after that, I mean, honestly, it was a years-long process.

I mean, we didn't really talk about it for years.

Like, it was just kind of something we pretended didn't happen.

And then my mom started talking about it openly.

And then she got her PhD in media psychology.

And now we like, you know, we've processed the fuck out of it.

That's amazing.

But it took a long time.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's great.

And Megan, do you want to talk about your

I wish it had been processed?

It is not.

But I'm fourth generation on both sides of my family, two by two.

So some people call it, it doesn't technically have a name, which is baked into the cultiness of it.

Some people call it the truth, the way, the two by twos.

Basically, if you were super into Archie comic books when you were younger, you might have been a part of it.

That's like one of the big tells is that we were all given a bunch of Archie.

Really?

Yeah, I don't know why, but sometimes people are like, that's not the one I was in.

And then I'm like, is it the Archie one?

And they're like, yeah.

That's the tell.

Did they change the contents to make it like Archie supporting?

No.

Oh, okay.

What is it about Archie?

We weren't allowed to have television.

We weren't allowed to watch movies.

We weren't supposed to do anything entertaining.

So for some reason, people were like, let them read Archie.

Wow.

At least they can do that.

And we did.

We did the ghost from 1952 came in.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's such an interesting fact, like a little tidbit.

Do you ever see someone with an Archie tattoo?

You're like, what's up?

What's up?

What was like the basic tenet of that?

That's a great question.

So since they haven't written anything down, really nobody knows.

Essentially, this man named William Irvine had a, what I would call a manic episode in like 1897, where he got really depressed on New Year's Eve and was like, I found a verse, I think it's in Matthew, that was like, I'll send them out two by two and they'll have no home and they'll go out and la la la la.

And he was like, that.

And so he was very, he was like the Scotsman, very charismatic.

And he started this homeless ministry.

We go out two by two and we have no possessions.

And people loved it.

And Ireland, you know, well, actually, I'll back up a second.

People hated it,

but some people loved it.

The people who loved it loved it.

Yeah.

The people who loved it loved it.

The people who he was telling they were going to hell and like, this church is evil, that church is evil.

Any church that's not our church is evil.

They were like, shut up.

And there's so many newspaper clippings that now I've seen at the time where people are like, William's on it again.

Like he's up and preaching.

But he ends up losing his mind completely and he's excommunicated.

And he ends up dying in Israel in like 1914 and is just kind of maybe later, maybe 1920, something, but he's written out of the history of it.

They're embarrassed of him going off the deep end.

They don't want to talk about it.

They have a pretty big following at this point.

And they're like, let's just write him out.

It came from Jesus.

Okay.

So there's no founder.

We're going back.

We're going way back.

And so they just decided to erase him.

So when I'm growing up, fourth generation, where, when did your church start?

I don't know about William.

I've never heard about William.

I go, it started from Jesus.

And that's what we all.

thought.

And so the basic tenants are that strange people lived in our homes

because they don't have a house, that we went to a lot of church.

It's pretty much like being Amish, but also living in the normal world.

There's a verse in the Bible that says you should be in the world, not of the world.

So Amish people are wrong because they've taken themselves out of the world.

So who cares if you're righteous and like sweet out where no one can see you?

You need to be among the sinners, but you need to be so weird that people go, there's something different about you.

I have that.

We have that.

We do not really see that.

And they go, what is it?

And then you go, it's Jesus.

It's Jesus.

That's my big secret.

Yeah, that's my big secret.

And the amount of secrecy and level, I mean, we really lived a lot like Amish people while going to normal schools, having normal jobs.

But I didn't know, like, people would be like, did you see Saturday Night Live?

And I was like, what the?

Heck is that?

Yeah.

Yeah.

No clue.

And you had to wear long dresses.

Oh, yeah.

I got to wear really long jean skirts,

buns.

And, you know, I.

You couldn't cut your hair?

No.

Yeah.

This bob is an act of rebellion.

Hell yeah.

Ditto.

Yeah.

Right decision.

We all have bobs.

We all have bobs.

We're all about cults.

Some cult.

You said rebel.

I said,

same thing.

A rebel cult.

Rebel cult.

Exactly.

Now we're susceptible.

And yeah, we had to wear in buns.

I luckily did rebel.

My friends would bring me clothes to school when I got a little bit older, you know, like, so I could wear some jeans.

But yeah,

you really weren't supposed to.

And my mom didn't.

Yeah.

So when did you get out?

And like, when did you?

Oh, well, the day my parents dropped me off at college.

I was like, bye, thank you.

But,

you know, I, I was supposed to go every Sunday and Wednesday and Sunday afternoon.

And I was too busy studying for that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Oh, sure.

Did you get incredible grades?

I was getting incredible deeds.

And

so, you know, I never really went back.

Oh, another little tenet of this is that the children in the church profess and then you start speaking and the meetings.

So you don't go to a church building where somebody speaks at you.

You meet in homes and everybody who's professed shares.

So I would have to like pick a verse every week.

And like I'm supposed to be teaching people about the Bible.

My least favorite book of all time, all I like is the babysitters club and like doing everything the opposite of it.

So I just stopped going.

I stopped speaking when I went, but the fear was so,

so heavy because this is a religion that doesn't celebrate Christmas, it doesn't celebrate Easter.

It's like those are making light of Jesus.

He's not like a little chiclet, furry, Easter bunny kind of dude.

Yeah, he's like,

he's bringing the wrath of God, and we're all going to hell.

Even the people in it, most of them believe that they're going to hell.

So I was very scared.

And it really wasn't until this podcast that I even had some hope of like unwinding it because even though my

big

brain was like, This is ridiculous, my other brain was like, No, yes, yeah, that's the way.

I mean, at the beginning, when you were describing that, I'm like, This is the Catholic Church, essentially

without the skirts, but I do think maybe it's not even the Catholic Church, it's just that mindset, which is they're bad and we're good, and trying to like live through.

So, basically, anything we do is justified because they're bad.

Yes, and having those thoughts as a kid is a very weird feeling because you're like, I never questioned it, but I would have that.

Like, I think I've told Georgia this a bunch of times, driving to church, I would see little kids playing in the front yard at their house and be like, oh, that's too bad.

They're going to burn in hell.

And like, truly just kind of very lightly feel that pity for people.

Whereas, like, of course, when I got into college, same thing where I met a bunch of people outside of my town and faith and everything, where I was just like, all these people are not burning burning in hell.

They just, this is illogical and that kind of thing of like, it's just weird when it's inside you like that.

It's just like built in.

Built in completely.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

In Mormonism too, we are the chosen ones.

We didn't necessarily believe in hell in the traditional sense, but a lower tier of heaven.

Everyone else is going to a lower tier of heaven.

Yeah.

So like the waiting room of heaven.

Condos versus mansions.

Or bottle service and VIP versus just like the regular club.

So it's supposed to be just like earth.

Like

if you're a bad person, heaven is just like the normal world.

But if you're, if you do the right way,

that's a good ass heaven.

Wow.

But like just teaching kids in general that they can like, like being burnt is so painful.

And teaching somebody that they can be like that for eternity, that's so mean.

That's so mean.

Like really stop it.

If that's what you have to do to get children to believe in, or adults even to believe in what you're preaching, that just seems a little bit like, well, I don't know if you can back that up then.

You can't back that up.

We don't have to back it up because it's a matter of faith.

Yeah, no questioning.

Yes, exactly.

Yeah.

So basically, do you both know?

Well, you just described it the moments you had your doubt.

It was essentially like you're saying being out in the real world.

When I was really little, I was like, no.

She was a questioner.

I was like, I don't like it.

But my problem was I was, I was like super dyslexic.

I had ADD and I was from a family with very educated adults who had quote unquote high power jobs.

And so I was like, they're smarter than me.

So I must be missing something.

So that was kind of my experience.

Oh, I've never heard you say that before.

Yeah, cognitive dissonance.

I was like, doubting yourself.

You're on that.

If I can't read and this person's a surgeon, then they're probably right.

Yeah.

So is your family still involved?

Totally.

Four generations.

That just is a hard thing to break from.

They are.

Yeah.

Wow.

Yeah.

And are you accepted?

I just got back from family vacation with them.

I couldn't love them more.

You know, a lot of people are pretty over it.

There was just a very big

exposure in the two-by-two system where if you have people staying in people's homes, that's like a vision board for pedophiles to get involved in the group.

And they've been covering it up.

Another Catholic Church similarity.

Yes, except that they're sleeping in your house for a week, you know, so you don't, you don't get that break.

So a lot of people are just writing their two by two family members off.

We're over it.

I'm kind of going a different route.

It's for each to decide.

Yeah, definitely.

Yeah.

It's a very personal thing.

Wow.

That's incredible.

Yeah,

it's a wild time.

Yeah.

It's really, it's really crazy.

Well, but I think it's like, that's what George and I were so excited when we knew that your podcast was looking for a home because being able to come from a point of view when you are talking to people who just got out, out, like that level of empathy from the framework from which you are speaking is very rare.

I mean, like if at all.

So I think it just, it's such an advantage that you guys have because you have the experience and you have the empathy and you have the interest, but you also aren't, it's not like you're...

like we are right now or like wait how did it happen and why would it happen or whatever you guys absolutely know how the how and why usually so you're right there with people when they're telling their story thank you yeah that's the goal Like before I found Megan, when I first had the idea for this podcast, I just was listening to cult podcasts and felt they all felt so gawky.

Yeah.

Like, look how crazy this was.

You know, I would never.

I feel like that's kind of me a little and I feel guilty.

Like, I wasn't raised in any religion that was very, like, was mandatory in any way.

So it's so hard for me to understand that.

And therefore, I feel like I lack a little bit of the empathy that you guys.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, one of my original, the things that originally made me think of it was I was watching a video about Jonestown and reading some of the comments and all the comments were like, these idiots, you know, and I was like, no, no, no.

Especially because, you know, my mom being so much in the, doing so much advocacy in the cult world, I've met so many people who have advanced degrees, who are like wildly intelligent, you know, very successful, talented.

Like, it's just everybody is susceptible.

And that was one of the, yeah, that's the perspective we want to come from is that like, these are just human people.

We're having conversations.

Everybody's smart.

Like, there's, this isn't, there's there's nothing wrong with you if this happened to you yeah that's so important yeah so speaking of in your premiere episode for exactly right here you guys interviewed akina cox who was raised in the unification church which some people call the moonies which we've discussed many times on the podcast was there anything in that conversation that stood out to you or that was surprising to you you guys have 500 episodes you i Do you still get surprised?

Well, we hadn't interviewed someone who had actually participated in a mass wedding before,

right?

Because I don't think Steve did.

No, he never didn't get married that way.

It's not that it was surprising to learn that it happened, it's just like so interesting to get the first-hand perspective of somebody who had been through that and her parents as well.

Wow.

Yeah, because in San Francisco Bay Area, we used to, that would be on like the seven o'clock news all the time because the Unification Church really kind of posted up in San Francisco.

There were so many people kind of left over from the you know 1969 kind of drug addle thing.

And so they were picking people in the, I'd say, mid to late 70s, it happened constantly.

And I think it was part of the local news's way of saying, look out, or this is a group that you should be aware of or something.

But they would show the footage of 10,000 people getting married at one time.

And I remember just like sitting there and turning to my mom, like, wait, what is this?

And she's just like, the Moonies, like, you know, we all, we know about them or whatever.

But it was that kind of like,

it's weird to me how much they put it in front of us at the time.

Seemed to me to message that kind of like, look out, these people are around.

I really needed somebody to do that for the two by twos.

Hopefully I'm doing that.

Yeah, yeah.

But even if they did

four generations, like what could you have done?

Exactly.

And you did it.

Yeah, yeah.

But to your point, exactly.

Like, we need people to say, hey, look at what they're doing.

It's weird.

Otherwise, you're like, is that normal?

I don't know.

but when you're in it it feels so normal i know i know and i the physical abuse she really shocked me with with what they

in the unification church yeah like from childhood she was in there and it was yeah it's like a part it's like a ritual it's part of the practice i guess you guys have probably talked about it before yeah yeah a little bit yeah yeah so she she really shook us up a bit also she's so cool yeah she's so funny

yeah i floated us being friends in real life on the interview and she was like maybe I'm just like,

she's like, I'll put you on the list.

Let me know.

Let me know when I'm in your group.

Yes, so much.

That's so funny.

I think one of the things about, you know, publicizing the mass weddings and like, while it's important to draw attention to stuff like that, it also can create a huge stigma around people who are still in the group.

Like an us versus them.

Yes, like they're weirdos, they're evil, they're bad.

And we see that a lot where the people who are actually victims of the group

are treated as though they are perpetrators.

Like they're coming out with shame.

Yeah, and just, you know, having family members who are still in or knowing people who are still in, the two by twos who are wonderful people,

it makes me feel really protective of them.

And I absolutely, like we said earlier, understand being like, well, they just need to do their research.

But you're just taught, like, don't look into this kind of stuff.

Don't question like if it's generations deep, it's

just some serious indoctrination.

It's really deep.

So, um, yeah, I just try to hold space for people who are in it.

That's generous.

And I just want to shout out something that's been going on with my mom because we talk about this idea a lot of staying connected to people who are still in the group instead of shunning them.

Right.

Because there will be some media on this part of my mom's journey.

But after her experience, she ended up moving to the FLDS town of Colorado City, which is where all the polygamists live, for those who don't know, and just was nice to people and was like an outsider who had, was like one of the first outsiders to just be nice to them.

And through these relationships that she created, she ended up actually getting to know the new self-proclaimed prophet after Warren Jeffs went to prison and ended up going undercover for the FBI.

I didn't expect that.

I didn't expect that to her.

Because now she had earned their trust and she had earned the trust of some of the victims of him who finally finally came out to her and she was able to get them to tell their stories to the FBI.

So it can be also just really powerful for actually helping people

connect to them.

If she was just like judgy, judge, you're wrong.

Let me help you out of this.

It would not have happened.

Yes, people who are in a group like that and are isolated from any outsiders, like do need some connection, some safe connection outside of the group in order for anything to ever

break.

I'm glad you brought that up because do you know who else is being investigated by the FBI?

Tell us.

The two by two.

Did the FBI come to my house?

They shut up.

Yeah, so that's good.

Yeah.

It is.

You know, it's bringing attention and putting the authority figures who are actually the ones moving these perps around, secretly harboring money that, you know,

the spotlight on to them.

So

it could actually change something.

Gosh, I hope so.

And you're right.

I mean, I think that piece of it of like, and we talk about that a lot in this day and age, in this political climate or whatever, where it's like when people feel so identified with a group that's so far over into one area, if they don't think they have anywhere to come back to, then there's no point in ever even trying to.

Right.

Because it's hard enough, I'm, you know, I assume it's hard enough to leave, much less to leave and believe that everyone's judging you once you get out the door.

Yes, there's got to be some support system or something.

Yeah.

Bridging that gap and just, you know, if

it's not for you, that's fine.

But we talked to, what was his name, Frank, who was going to dinner parties.

You mean the white supremacists?

Yeah, who was that?

So Frank was the one whose boss was Jewish.

He was the neo-Nazi.

But then our Derek Black, now known as Adrienne Black, she was the one who was

David Duke's poster child.

She

has denounced.

white supremacy and racism and has now you know come out as trans but she was invited to dinner parties uh some jewish friends and over time like because she forged these new connections with people um it was like what broke through her ideology wow did they know who she was when they were

she was like on the radio like she had a radio program for white supremacy and they were just being generous yeah and my one of my best friends abital who i love yeah it was her brother who was one of these people who

tiny world yeah really small world but but it's all to say you don't have to have the dinner parties like some people are like oh i don't definitely not i don't want to have that dinner party and i don't have the capacity to and that's fine but if you can have a dinner party or if you can have a conversation and it doesn't send you into a spiral then that's great it helps everyone's unique and everyone's role is different and not everyone is destined to pull people out of cults like no i would say maybe leave it to the people who are really good at dinner parties really good at small talk right welcome being welcoming without judgment yeah very few of us in this world actually are like that.

Yeah.

I think it's a good thing to strive for because I do, there is a part of me that feels really guilty about the way I have considered I would never, you know, but I've been a 20-year-old girl.

I've been in my 30s depressed.

Like we've all been at certain places in our lives where we're susceptible to whatever level of influence someone else, you know, wants to

put on you.

Also, I think it does make us feel better if when you go through the world kind of having a cynical eye toward things,

you know you're missing out on stuff, but you're like, not going to fall for it.

And so then there is that little, it's like the cold comfort of telling yourself, like, I was smarter than everybody, where it was like, and you didn't get invited to any dinner parties because of it.

So there is, you know, I think it's that.

It's like probably less guilt and more of like,

you're an automatic cynic because of how you were raised.

Same with me, where I'm just like, I'll see you coming from a mile away, but it doesn't make me smarter because every human being has the kind of needs that if you're not getting those needs met, any old group can come along and be like, come be in our band.

And then, you know,

exactly.

Yeah.

And like, Megan, we have very different

sensibilities

in our lives.

I'm a scientist of the metaphysical.

Megan loves magic.

Yeah, I love magic.

I love science.

And so when she

said she's like, she was

like, I'm trolling her.

She's trolling me.

I believe in nothing.

But

we talk about how anytime we have a cult on the podcast that's like a more

spiritual, metaphysical, new age one, like Megan would join.

And that's what we traditionally think of cults as, like, either religious or that.

Right.

But then you got these like self-help programs and you got these ones that are more for like making you achieve or like making you smarter.

I'm a joint nexium.

Yeah.

I would join the nexium.

That's one that I jumped.

That's a great point.

I'm just thinking about like Jonestown with some religious leaders.

You're such a Nexium.

Right.

You would totally.

25-year-old Georgia would have fucking signed up immediately.

Burned it in.

Burned it in.

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So it's time for would you join this cult with the gals from Trust Me.

Well, this one, I covered this one.

It was the Sarah Lawrence dorm dad who moved into the dorms and basically started a very tiny cult with his daughter's friends.

Yeah.

I interviewed them.

That was a great episode.

Which is so sad because they seem so normal.

They are.

They're cool and normal like

all of our guests are.

Yes, of course.

And so manipulated.

Yeah.

Just so manipulated.

I would have Jane.

That guy is endlessly fascinating to me.

Yeah.

You don't get video of like the actual abuse that often.

Right.

And the fact that it's all like on, he was just, they were just all filming it on their their cell phones.

You can just see him talking to that.

It's just like, he's so compelling.

I can't remember if he was saying he was in the CIA or like, yeah, and just had this big story.

I'm very drawn to kind of narcissistic liars.

Same.

Yeah.

No.

No.

So if your friend's dad is like, I wasn't, I'd be like, okay.

Yeah.

I totally see how that happened.

I would see him as an authority figure for sure.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I'd join that shit.

That's a double yes.

I love the dorm dad cult is going to be fully occupied.

So would you join the Manson family?

Okay.

Let's go early on.

Yeah.

I will.

Early on.

Yeah.

Totally.

I see you early on.

Totally.

A good commune, hot people.

If you look back at some pictures, some nice drugs.

Drugs.

Yeah.

You would.

I know.

Yeah.

Yes.

I feel like for me,

once they move out into like the desert with no plumbing and and no,

I would have been yeah,

and once we start getting into murdering people,

got you.

Like,

absolutely.

Like always, before we know about the bad stuff,

in the beginning, 150 billion percent.

Right.

I would say no, only because I think the early days would have been all those like kind of like hangout drug parties with the beach boys and stuff.

And I know Charles Manson sat around playing the acoustic guitar at those parties.

So if people were like, we're going to his farm, I'd be like, absolutely.

So heartbreakingly like, I love this guy.

And then you hear his band.

And you're like, oh, no.

Cannot do this.

Yeah, that's true.

That's true.

That's a good point.

I don't think, I think it depends on who I'm exposed to initially, because I think I would have been drawn to like

the mute.

Oh, sorry.

Text.

Tex Watson.

Text Watson.

Oh, the hot guy.

The hot guy.

I don't remember what Tex looks like.

Is he hot?

Yeah.

Just a tall cowboy.

But somehow more dangerous.

Okay.

Okay, then, well, then probably.

She's like, is he available now?

I think I would have been drawn in general to like the counterculture groups that were happening at that time.

Because I'm like anti-capitalist and shit, you know?

But I don't know if it would have been that specific one.

Yeah.

But I would I would want to hang out with the Beach Boy, though, for sure.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

They were on scene.

What about the Alamo Christian Foundation?

They were the ones that did the airbrush jean jackets in the 80s as a jean jackets

as a way to do, as a way to make money.

Christian-based, it was all about the woman, all about the wife in the beginning.

And then she died, and like the boyfriend, husband took over.

There's this really great documentary that just came out about it.

I just covered it.

That was just, I had never heard of it before.

But yeah, never heard of it before.

Yeah, this is embarrassing.

No, it's Ministry of Evil.

Oh, yeah.

Ministry of Evil.

Ministry of Evil documentary, I mean.

But it's kind of similar to Children of God, I think, in that way where they were like the LA people who were left over from the 60s, still hanging around, you know, partying purpose yeah and they're just kind of like well how about this purpose i think they also use flirty fishing styles to get men in like hot women yeah and at one point they all lived in an apartment off crescent heights and there was like a 1300 people in the house or apartment 1300 i think it was something like that but this is what i think though it's a good point like yeah maybe it was 300.

i'm not gonna remember

but that's a good point though like i wonder about the people who back then were hippies and they were doing all these things that were against what they were raised in and they were still looking for God, but being themselves.

I bet that was more susceptible than just the people who were just trying to look for a commune.

It had nothing to do with God.

Yeah, we were talking, we've talked a lot about how surprising it is how many hippies who were like counterculture people joined Christian cults that became like hyper conservative.

Yeah.

It's like they still wanted, they left their home and their hometown and everything that they still believed and wanted.

And they still wanted a community.

Do you think that there was something baked into the end of the world

and not having saved money that probably appealed to them.

That makes sense.

Yeah.

That makes sense.

Yeah.

I think that's my guess.

Yeah.

So I would probably join it because I have saved no money.

And I love jean jackets.

Okay.

Here's a big one.

Ohm Shinrikyo.

That's the 1980s and 90s Japanese doomsday cult responsible for the 1995 Tokyo Subway Sarin gas.

We have not done it.

I haven't done that yet, although we have somebody who survived it.

Wow.

Come on.

Wow.

We do.

Yeah, we do.

My uncle lived in an apartment with a roommate who was involved in that, but that's not interview-worthy, I don't think.

I mean, maybe.

Maybe.

Yeah.

Okay, this one, the documentary was incredible.

Love has won the 2010 spiritual influencer culture with Mother God, Amy Carlson.

It was a new age cult.

I don't know if that's more special to you guys in any way.

Megan would join that one.

We interviewed her daughter.

I think that off the top of one's head, you might say that I would join, but I would not because it was,

I'm trying to think of how to word this, a little bit like too yoga-based.

No.

No, she's into that.

Okay.

What I need to say is that it was like a little bit more meth rather than like, oh, you know what I mean?

Like there was a high meth vibe there.

Very cluttered, dirty.

Oh, that's true.

Stay up all night.

But wasn't it just the one guy?

Yeah, but like it was never just one guy.

Yeah, there was too many posters.

There was like too many.

It was just you needed to be like pristine.

Yeah.

More like of a like if goop, if Gwyneth had one, you know, like I needed to be

aesthetically pleasing.

You don't want to watch the sunrise.

No, this was just too many

trinkets.

You don't want to have to be telling people to clean the kitchen.

No.

Not adults.

No, no, no, no.

If we're all going to live in this farmhouse together.

Because I'm assuming I would join this one more as an adult, whereas I'm thinking of myself as a teenage 60s girly when I'm joining the Mansons, just so people have like.

What part of your life is the person who would?

Yeah, I hear you.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

These are the

states.

I still think if you didn't know how they were living and you saw Amy Carlson.

Yes,

she's great.

She was Diana.

She wasn't great, Megan.

No, she's not.

So you would like watch her YouTube videos.

I totally would be susceptible to her.

I did have friends who liked her.

I thought maybe she was a little crazy.

But the interesting thing about Amy is that she did say, I think I'm crazy.

And her followers said, no, you're not.

Yeah.

Yeah.

No, you're not.

So you're God.

How do you get that many followers if you're crazy?

You know what I mean?

And so she kind of tried to back off from it.

She was like, you know what?

Never mind.

And they're like, no, we're going to

wrap your body in Christmas lace.

So that's what's happening.

Which also is very methyl.

That whole thing of like an art project, a dead body.

As someone who has been on meth before, as a younger person, excuse me, that is very methyl.

Oh, you haven't heard that's George's cult.

George's cult.

Oh, I did not know.

George's cult of methyl.

So you would join those.

I would at 14.

I would have at 14 for sure.

14.

Wow.

Not knowing.

Not now.

No more, no more meth now.

That's your grass.

I want to ask a question.

Do you guys think, and this might be inflammatory, but is there any like influencers today?

Because I have a lot of friends who are like, you've got to watch this person's videos or you've got to listen to this person's podcast.

It changed my life.

And I'm immediately like, Rolo thinks all of them are.

Yeah.

A good amount.

You don't have to name names, but is there like

honestly Teal Swan and Benton Home Massaro?

But they've both been already sort of exposed for their behaviors.

Yeah.

Like I said, I love a good person speaking to aliens, but they're all full of shit.

Most likely, what were you about to say?

What if one isn't?

Is that just the one?

You just need one to one.

Did you see, you know, the brother and sisters that were the original on Dancing with the Stars?

Julianne Huff.

Have you seen those?

Like, she now has some sort of...

Actress?

The beautiful

beautiful actress.

She was the dancer on Dancing with the Stars.

She's a blonde.

She's really perfect.

And she has started what started out as like a wellness company, but she went to do like the live speaking for it.

And people post the video and they're like, This is absolutely a cult.

Like the way she isn't really saying anything, but everyone's like cheering like crazy.

And she's kind of like doing a little bit of a dance, but also is like, We all are gonna get to.

And people say it's like maybe like a little bit of a born-again Christian fundamentalist going in that direction.

Megan's ready to defend.

I can see that all coming back.

Where do we draw the line with just like being motivated?

I mean, at bolero hats,

If we just cut it there, where it's like, sorry, you've gone over the line, we can't trust you over here.

Yeah, I mean, yeah.

I just have an allergy to the level of certainty that a lot of these people use

in how they speak.

Yes.

And like a certainty about things that like nobody has certainty on.

You know what I mean?

And like a lot of the people who are selling supplements, for example, like, are there any real scientists on the board of your company?

And even

though the FDA is not checking them out, right?

And what's tricky is that so many of these people will have videos that have really good advice.

Like it's not black and white.

I hate Jordan Peterson.

He's got a couple good videos on relationships.

You know what I mean?

Teal Swan has a couple good videos on relationships.

So it doesn't mean that there isn't some value in like some things that they'll say, but like how certain are they talking and what do they actually know about that subject?

And are you going to other sources as well for your information?

It's almost like it has to have some solid information at its base, right?

Because it has to grow from somewhere.

Yes.

So you're like, this is a person that is giving me this, this kind of insight.

If there was no real insight, you wouldn't stay.

Exactly.

So you're getting a little more of that, like, how can I be on the grind that Julianne Huff is on?

Yeah.

And, you know, get my eyes real wide.

Yeah.

And that's why arguing with them is so annoying for both of you, because they have the nugget of truth that they're trying to get you to see.

And you see the mirror of lies and that you're trying to get them to see.

And you both can't.

And yours is probably harder to explain than theirs is.

There's just like, I just do believe it.

And you're like, but how about this and this and this and this?

Yeah, yeah.

But I remember, I remember making those same arguments when I was like, still very much a Mormon.

I was like, no, but I know.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And so, and like, random people in high school would be like, yeah, but how do you know?

And I'd be like, I just know.

Wow.

Yeah.

And you'd feel bad for them or you just like didn't.

I felt bad for them and I also felt attacked by them.

Yeah, of course.

Well, you were.

That was the test.

We were both seriously bullied.

Fair enough.

Hence, podcasting.

This is how we all got here.

Should we each pick one of these?

Do we have different cards or the same cards?

I don't know.

What do you have?

What's your last one?

I haven't seen one.

Are we asking them if they would join us?

Yeah, sure.

Yeah.

Oh, this one's coming.

Can't we butted in on all of these?

Okay.

Weren't we already a favorite?

Let's pick a favorite.

You or us you guys you guys go ahead

yeah hoyt richers is a friend of mine who we did an episode on him he was a supermodel a male supermodel in the 90s who was modeling with all of the iconic supermodel women he got drawn into a cult in the 90s and early 2000s and it was like it was all these like successful people would you join a cult full of supermodels of course a beautiful people's culture everyone is trying to do every day of their life.

Right.

Like, when will I get my phone call?

Right.

Yeah.

He did end up getting so supremely isolated and they made him give up his career and he escaped like in the night from this compounded story.

He's absolutely crazy.

Wow.

But like, Hoyt's hot and

beautiful people know more than we do, right?

Sometimes.

Maybe.

They must.

What about...

Would either of you guys join Heaven's Gate?

I think early on I would have.

Yeah.

Why?

The alien thing, I think it's just fascinating.

And like, it never got so big that it felt like you were like anonymous.

You were just part of this spaceship.

Maybe in my 20s, you know.

Are you into aliens?

Is that your thing?

I want to be proven wrong.

I want to be like proven that aliens exist because I don't believe in anything.

But,

you know.

I also find aliens very exciting.

Yeah.

What about a ghost, a ghost one?

A ghost cult.

Is there a ghost cult?

Is there a ghost cult?

I can't just make up cults.

Not for the trust me, Gazeron.

Okay.

I'm officially starting my cult today.

I don't feel like I know of a ghost.

There's a cult where somebody channeled somebody dead.

Okay.

Well, yeah.

But like, I want to be haunted.

Like, it is a goal of mine to be haunted since I don't believe in anything.

It's exactly how we feel about aliens.

Great.

Like, I want to be proven.

Yeah.

This is the beginning of a horror movie that I want no pardon.

Come back in a year.

Am I going to be

an alien and you're going to be a ghost?

No.

Wait, that means I'm dead.

I honestly remember seeing somebody from Heaven's Gate on the news that that lived, one of those people that like stayed behind me again.

Who are in it?

Frank was it Frank who was he the website guy they left behind someone who knew how to do websites a lot of news P.S.

This is I am older than everybody.

I'm a child of the 70s.

My parents watched six and seven o'clock news.

Wow.

And then Jeopardy.

So I just said had to sit there powering through because I wasn't going to stop watching TV, whether it was news or any TV.

No, I didn't care.

So then I just had a lot of questions.

But that one, I just remember when that happened, it was so shocking.

And it was like early 90s, right?

Yeah.

Like 90 or 91.

And there was just an interview with one of the guys that was left behind.

And they asked him, why did you join?

It was like, this is so crazy.

Why would you join this?

And he was just like, I don't know, nothing else to do.

It was like he had kind of like low-grade depression and just was like, I just don't see what else there is to do.

And when I saw him say that on the news, I was like, oh, you better be careful with these feelings that you have.

Cause it was like, yeah, I know that feeling where I'm just like, I just want to sit on the couch and like, yeah, not do anything.

And it's like that.

That is an opening of like thinking that that mindset is the way it's always going to be.

And you know, people who are really fired up about something trigger something and others who are maybe a little more depressive leaning or something, and you can go into it with the savviness of like, this person's kind of crazy.

I just need a little bit of like things to

still get sucked in, even with the prior knowledge.

I completely understand that.

Like, when you see someone who's excited about something, you're like, God, I wish I could feel that.

So maybe I'm going to fake it until I do.

Or like, maybe I'm going to force myself to.

Well, and also one of the things that they do is create strong emotional experiences in you so you keep coming back.

So if you're someone who's like not getting a lot of those, like that's going to be pretty appealing.

Yeah.

Also with relationships, like I'll be like, this guy's a little insane.

Like, but i'm not gonna handle i'm not gonna fall in love with him i'm just gonna have some good you know hookup situations like no big deal and then three months later i'm like koorang you're like i am trapped yeah

what is wrong with you literally same and i'm like all of it everything

and i knew or like it doesn't matter if you know sometimes because the emotional highs and lows work on you even if you logically know that they're happening if you've ever gotten in a bad relationship you are susceptible to a

Everyone on the planet.

Not everyone.

Some people have secure attachment styles.

No.

Y'all anyone listen to this podcast?

They've seen it.

I've seen it.

Those are not seen that.

Also, shout out because Frank Liford was the Heaven's Gate survivor that we had on our podcast, and his story is incredible and very, very heartbreaking.

It makes me happy to hear if it is the same guy.

It makes me happy to hear because he clearly was into something.

He stuck around with us.

Yeah, yeah.

Like it didn't, you know, what he went into.

And that's also a thing of like being young and making that decision, such a final and

final decision, traumatic for a survivor, all of those things where it's like, yeah, can you picture maybe in 20 years you will not feel like this?

Well, nope.

And that's one of the things that the apocalyptic thinking is so powerful and

saving off.

And like the two by twos in particular,

when we're all groomed to want to be workers, that's what it's called.

When we grow up, that means that we don't have any possessions, we don't get married, we're celibate, and we go live in people's houses forever.

And a very good kind of person is drawn to that life who maybe has a little bit of OCD,

a million different things.

But then a very bad type of person is also drawn to that.

So you have this dichotomy of personality types that get drawn into the circumstances.

All kinds of agendas.

All kinds of agendas.

I can see myself joining an apocalypse cult just because it seems exciting.

Yeah.

You know, like sometimes I'm like, I was living in LA for 20 years.

It's the same shit every day.

Like,

if I knew the end of the world was coming and like something was going to happen to all of us and the Lord would make like decision, I could see that being.

The happiest people I know are planning for doomsday.

They have a very strong purpose.

It's like packing for a church.

Because nothing else matters, right?

Yeah, you're like, everyone loves a deadline.

I feel like that's the crossover for my Alien Doomsday thing.

Like that's the Alien Doomsday.

They're kind of a pair for you.

The Pew chart of Independence Day.

The baby Independence Day, yes.

Georgia watching Independence Day is the center of that documentary, but it's a documentary.

No, it's a documentary.

Mars attacks?

Mars attacks.

Yes.

Oh my God.

No, that's a good point.

That's a good point.

And to the to that good point, like I, as I joked about earlier, like, I don't have a savings.

I was not taught.

to think that tomorrow would come, right?

And every time I left the house, it was like, is that what you want to be wearing when Jesus comes back to the world?

Is that what you want to be thinking?

Do you want to be in the movie theater when Jesus comes back?

And you'd be like, no, I guess not.

But like, I really wanted to see Clueless.

I don't fucking know.

Just a human being.

Yeah, I'm just a human being trying to figure it out.

And a lot of people who were in that group do have say things accounts and were able to think rationally about things and hold both things at once.

I think some people aren't and are like, well, the world's on tomorrow, so I'm not going to worry about it.

And they told me.

They didn't give you a specific timeline, right?

Though, because in Mormonism, it was like, it could be tomorrow, could be in 50 years.

We don't know.

It's soon.

Probably tomorrow.

And the two by two.

Yeah.

Yeah.

More pressing.

I need a time.

I need a time.

I'm so punctual.

It's annoying.

Like, I need a time.

I need a time.

And that's why this, like, time in the world is so perfect for these conversations because the world actually kind of is ending.

So it's like just the pressure cooker of so many belief systems and yeah, trying to dig yourself.

Well, and we're all looking for answers and we're all looking for reasons to think maybe why the world actually isn't ending

and why it matters if it doesn't, and what the meaning of life is.

It's a really important thing.

And the belief system is so dichotomous that it's like, how can those people think that?

But they're thinking the same thing about us.

Yeah.

Well, the time has never been better for us to have a cult podcast.

And we are so excited.

It's your guys.

We really are.

Thank you so much for joining us because we are so glad to have you on this network.

Oh, we're so glad to be here.

That's right.

You guys, trust me, cults, extreme belief, and manipulation debuts on Exactly Right on July 30th with new episodes every Wednesday.

And go listen, subscribe, and give it a five-star review.

You know, those reviews are very important.

Yes, that's subscription is important.

So, thanks for being here.

Thank you for listening.

Thank you guys so much.

Thank you.

Elvis, do you want a cookie?

This has been an Exactly Right production.

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