Rewind with Karen & Georgia - 54: Valet Area

Transcript

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Speaker 1 Hello and welcome to Rewind with Karen in Georgia. A rewind.
A rewind.

Speaker 1 Every Wednesday, and you might know this, we go back and we recap our old shows and we give it all new commentary, we give it updates, we bring some insights, we do our thing.

Speaker 1 And today we're doing our thing with episode 54, which we named Valet Area. This episode came out on February 2nd, 2017, year two of the podcast.
We were in it. We were in it.

Speaker 1 So let's listen to the intro of episode 54.

Speaker 1 That was

Speaker 1 moments of staring at each other. I thought we were going to say hi at the same time.
I know, but I didn't know when you were going to start ready. Same here.
Hi.

Speaker 1 Whoa.

Speaker 1 How are you?

Speaker 1 What the f- What the fuck? Welcome to my favorite murder. It's a show where we talk at the same time.

Speaker 1 Time. Time.

Speaker 1 That's Georgia Hardstark. That's Karen Kilgareth.
This is my favorite murder.

Speaker 1 Welcome. So glad you could make it.
Thanks for coming. Thanks for staying for at least 10 minutes, we hope.

Speaker 1 You know, we're 10. We're going to do this for 10 minutes.
Just a lot of back and forth. Yip, yap.

Speaker 1 If you're into that, hang out. If no, bye-bye.
Yeah. See you in 20, actually 20 minutes when we start the murders.
See you in

Speaker 1 45 minutes when I begin to commit to the project that is my favorite murder. Yeah, we're being realistic now.
Dude, love your nail. You got a manicure.
Oh, I got a manicure today.

Speaker 1 I did need to look at my nails. I know.
Isn't it fun? You're gazing lovingly at your nails. I've never seen you do that before.
Here's the thing. And I just talked about this, but to you, but

Speaker 1 having I, so now I work on Guy Branham's TV show.

Speaker 1 And on this TV show, I get for it's sometimes 8:30 in the morning,

Speaker 1 I get

Speaker 1 three grown women who stand around me doing my hair and makeup for hours.

Speaker 1 And it is so fun. I love it.
And like people just teasing my hair for like 45 minutes straight. The best.
And shaping it. So I have really good hair.

Speaker 1 Doing makeup, very lightly brushing my face for an hour. Amazing.
I start to realize like on the first day, because this is a... a very collapsed schedule.
It's been hard. We've worked a lot.

Speaker 1 So we're recording on a Sunday instead of a Tuesday. That's right.
Because this next week is going to be the same and crazy.

Speaker 1 But so the first day we went to tape, I sat down at my, so it's a, it's called Talk Show the Game Show. Guy is hosting Guy Branham, friend of the show, expert lawyer, Guy Branham.
It's a talk show.

Speaker 1 He's the host. And I am a judge where people come out and they get, they do an interview with Guy and then I judge them

Speaker 1 and tell them how they did. God, that sounds like a dream job.
Just like super fun. Yeah.
And you don't get judged. You just talk shit on them.
Hell no.

Speaker 1 They can't say shit into me. Don't fucking talk to me.

Speaker 1 But going through, like, basically, the beauty, a glam squad every morning makes me realize how, like, the first day after I left, Diane, who's my makeup person, handed me a mask.

Speaker 1 And she goes, why don't you put this on tonight? Oh, my.

Speaker 1 And it was basically like thing by thing where it's like, oh, yeah, that's right. Like, I go home and then just go to sleep and don't worry about it.

Speaker 1 They're like, can you make our lives a little easier?

Speaker 1 Can you not make this so that we have to put you together like a wax goddamn goddamn dummy um and so then you know like one day i realized i have to hold up signs i need to paint my fingernails yeah no dude i get it when you're like oh this person i have done the bare minimum of looking good yes and now but then once i do it it's like oh this is fun doesn't it feel nice to take care to pamper yourself it really does so today i really like it so today i was like i just did my nails last week really fast i do that too but so today i went and got a manicure oh my god in silver lake and it was nice and the lady, Rose,

Speaker 1 did it really awesomely. It's so sweet that you find out the names of your manicure.
She asked me my name and then I asked her her name. I love it.
It was fun.

Speaker 1 When I went to leave, also, but my glam ended because it was the weekend. So I had no makeup on and

Speaker 1 looked a lot like a scumbag. You saw me that morning.

Speaker 1 Went to leave. I told you in the morning you look beautiful.

Speaker 1 Well, I can't have it. I don't think I said beautiful.
I think I said, you look so pretty. Right.
I think beautiful is a lot of fun.

Speaker 1 And then I was like, get away from me in the ballet area and ran away from you.

Speaker 1 I was working ballet then.

Speaker 1 George had her little hat on and she brought my car around. I told her to get away from me.

Speaker 1 Went and got a manicure. As I was getting rung up, a girl who was getting her manicure looked up at me and goes, Karen? And I go, yeah.
Because I was like, oh, does she work with me?

Speaker 1 Is it somebody that like I haven't talked to that much? Whatever. And then she goes, I love your podcast.
But she was like, she was getting a manicure. So she was kind of weirdly stuck.

Speaker 1 It wasn't like we could shake hands or say hi or anything. And I immediately got so self-conscious that I had like these crazy nice nails.

Speaker 1 And then, other than that, I really looked like I rolled out from under a bridge. I was like, oh, thanks, bye, and just ran away so quickly.

Speaker 1 So I just wanted to say to that girl, if you're listening, which she might have quit at this point, because I was so not all that friendly to her. Hi.
Hi.

Speaker 1 I'm sorry I didn't ask you what your name was. I'm sorry I didn't say, I sorry I didn't have a moment with you.
I was kind of embarrassed.

Speaker 1 I'm kind of embarrassed in general. It's just like, how are you feeling today? Kind of embarrassed.
Kind of generally embarrassed. Yeah.
But I'm working on it. Yeah.
But I feel like hi to her.

Speaker 1 But the thing is, too, that she knows so much about you at this point and like doesn't expect you to like, she doesn't think you're going to be Chrissy fucking Teigen. You know what I mean? Yeah.

Speaker 1 Like we haven't fucking positioned ourselves to be Chrissy fucking. I mean, Chrissy Teigen seems like a chill chick, but like, I look.
For some reason, I can't drop the Chrissy Teigen expectation.

Speaker 1 It's my problem. Oh, yeah.
No one.

Speaker 1 I kind of am like, oh, maybe I look like, I kind of get that because I'm like, I'm not wearing makeup anymore.

Speaker 1 And then I'll see myself sometimes and be like oh my god i look like i'm on my way to rehab yes and like do people like my neighborhood cafe are they like is she okay and i have like some acne scars right now so it looks a little like i've been picking at my face you know like yes i want to be presentable presentable you want to be presentable if i saw if my mom saw me who's a really into images everything she'd be like She'd be worried about me.

Speaker 1 My mom, I have a tape in my head of my mom who used to always, if you would like walk through the kitchen, it would just be like after school one day or like casual time

Speaker 1 my mom would be the one that go oh god put some lipstick on you look like a corpse that was like her great quote so i have that kind of thing where i'm like really in the house you need me to wear lipstick lady it's so mom's she the minute she sees me she tells me how something i i am doing that she likes it better when i do the other way around

Speaker 1 like if i have short hair oh i like your hair longer not like you look cute it's like

Speaker 1 oh i like your hair shorter like it's just like here's what you're you've done that doesn't please me yes and and i'm like you you voted for trump

Speaker 1 what do you you here's what you mom that's right you don't get to tell me nothing anymore no no no no no no no

Speaker 1 moms moms and dads um do we have corners um

Speaker 1 oh I have a couple corners. Can I tell you something? Yes,

Speaker 1 yes. Vince and I have this.
I'm going to share a real intimate, not intimate, but an inside joke that my husband and I have that that we're the only people who know what this is.

Speaker 1 And we kind of love it and share it together. And I'm going to just tell a few people right now.
And every time we say any kind of corner thing, I think of this. And Vince, so

Speaker 1 whenever the word corner comes up, Vince and I say to each other, corner, corner, corner.

Speaker 1 And the reason is because we would go to this like. late night diner in Los Felos called House of Pies.
That's like the fucking best, like old school diner.

Speaker 1 And there was this chick who was a waitress there who was like, like late night waitress. You could tell she was on like Adderall and fucking like buzzing on coffee and shit.

Speaker 1 She was really cool, but she was like clearly buzzing.

Speaker 1 And every time she'd have hot plates on her, you know, when you're a waitress and you have to say behind you, behind you, when you're like behind someone with plates so they don't walk into you, she would come around the corner with these hot plates and go, corner, corner, corner, corner, corner, corner, corner, corner.

Speaker 1 So you'd be like eating your chicken pot pie or whatever. You just keep hearing corner, corner, corner.
And it doesn't always fucking crack up.

Speaker 1 So whenever we hear someone say corner, and this is like three years ago, and we're still like, corner, corner, corner. Now I just told everyone.
So let's do corner, corner, corner time.

Speaker 1 Is it corner, corner, corner time? It is.

Speaker 1 Well, we were at that live show.

Speaker 1 We got to meet some people afterwards, and there were two different girls who took the time to tell us that we, this podcast meant a lot to them because they were going through a really hard time.

Speaker 1 And that they were like, one, the one girl said it, I'm sorry, I don't remember your name. The way you phrased it was, you were these great voices in my head when I only had bad voices in my head.

Speaker 1 And it was so touching to me, but it also was the the same exact thing that a different girl said. And I was like, I said to her, just so you know, that's just what someone else said.

Speaker 1 I don't remember this. Yeah.
That's the first girl said. And I was like, someone else just said that.
Okay.

Speaker 1 And then she was like, oh, where I was like, I wanted to go like, go over there and talk to her, but that's weird. But

Speaker 1 it was just very,

Speaker 1 A, it was very touching that we could help. somebody that would be in that position.
But B, if you are in that position and you have those feelings,

Speaker 1 get help, figure out a way to find a therapist, go online, look it up. It's, there's, you know, like, it's good to get help for yourself and it's good to solve those problems.

Speaker 1 They're solvable problems. We've both been there.
And it's good to have friends too. And I have to say the Facebook group is,

Speaker 1 those people are.

Speaker 1 Everyone's becoming friends and everyone will talk to you and everyone will help you with something. And it's like a really good resource for people who listen to this because they need help.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 I think. I mean, I completely also get help from a fucking professional, but it is a really cool, like, I think a lot of people are making friends off of it.
Yeah, it sounds like it. Yeah.

Speaker 1 And we relate because, and we talk about this all the time, like, there are lots of podcasts I listen to that when I listen to them, it like it's my friends who have their own podcast or it's somebody else, you know, whatever that I love.

Speaker 1 But like, I start listening to it and I feel better. I feel like I'm with people I like.
I feel like I'm hanging out. Like my loneliness goes away.
My anxiety goes away.

Speaker 1 And so we get it like i'm not laughing at you i'm laughing at this uh meme i saw that says on the top um what i what i'm like when i listen to podcasts and it's this yeah did you see this it's this billboard of these three cute girls like eating ice cream and then there's this dude sitting next to the billboard like laughing along with them and eating a bowl of ice cream and it's like me too it's like how you listen to podcasts which i fucking i'm the same way completely yeah yeah now we have laura kilgariff corner

Speaker 1 that's sister sister sister corner. So my sister goes on the Facebook page and tells me stories that she loves and she has great taste.
So this one is especially awesome.

Speaker 1 And it's Kristen Michelle McClure story that she posted on the Facebook page. And it's fucking crazy.
So she says her boyfriend was sick.

Speaker 1 So she drove up to McAllister's in Addison, Texas to pick up some food and iced tea for dinner. And the parking lot was pretty dark.

Speaker 1 And the only people there that late were the staff and one woman who left shortly after she got there.

Speaker 1 And when she got her order, she walked outside to see the woman from before smoking a cigarette. And suddenly she comes over to me.
I switched it. Now it's first person.

Speaker 1 Suddenly she comes over to me and says, hi, oh my God. It's so good to see you.
How have you been? And I'm sure I looked very confused as I responded, I'm sorry, I think you have me confused.

Speaker 1 With someone else, I don't think I know you. And her voice got quiet and she said, pretend like you do.
There's a man hiding behind your car. Fucking chills, you guys.

Speaker 1 I'm a very observant and spatially aware person, but I never would have known he was there if it wasn't for this amazing lady. So I let her walk me to my car.

Speaker 1 And as I do, she explains that she saw him lurking as she was leaving and got a bad feeling. So she decided to wait for me.
What an angel, baby. That is so incredibly nice.

Speaker 1 And we really need to be doing that for each other. Yes.

Speaker 1 Sure enough, we get to my car, and a man in a hoodie stands up from behind my passenger rear side and nonchalantly walks into the dumpster alley.

Speaker 1 Dumpster alleys, we're fucking lurkers lurk.

Speaker 1 So as we're saying goodbye, she smiled and said, stay sexy, don't get murdered. What the fuck are the chances?

Speaker 1 A fellow murderino probably saved me from being robbed, assaulted, kidnapped, murdered. God knows what.
And I'm so thankful for her.

Speaker 1 I didn't catch her name, but if you're listening, but if you're reading this, thank you. Let's listen to MFM drink wine and catch and watch murder documentaries sometime.

Speaker 1 So then there's an update from Cheney Coles with this girl. Holy shit.
It's Chaney Coles, Kristen, Michelle McClure, and Emily Burke.

Speaker 1 And Chaney Coles is saying, so a lot of you probably saw Kristen's post yesterday about how a fellow murderino saved her when a hooded man was hiding behind her car at McAllister's.

Speaker 1 If you didn't scroll down, it's a crazy story. I live in Dallas, so I commented that I wanted to be her friend since we're practically neighbors.

Speaker 1 A few chats via Messenger and Facebook friendship later. She and I and my Murderino best friend Emily met for drinks last night and discussed all kinds of murders.

Speaker 1 The tables around us thought we were weird, but we had a great time. This podcast and this group makes me so happy.
Murderinos Unite is the last line.

Speaker 1 It's so sweet. When my sister sent me that, I started crying and I was like, that's the coolest idea.
That idea right there

Speaker 1 of somebody noticing something that might be bad and taking the time to look out for another person and the idea that the reason they might do that is because they were emboldened by the shit that you and I say

Speaker 1 my therapist is trying to make me cry more and I'm gonna try to do it because I really want to but I there's something inside of me that won't let me do it but stop it yes keep going I'm so proud of us

Speaker 1 I left therapy the other day and just texted you. I'm really proud of us.
You did. That's right.
Okay, but I'm proud of us too. I want to cry.

Speaker 1 Well, just don't do it now.

Speaker 1 I mean, Jesus Christ. And you're like sitting there like, I've got to cry on the spot.
I already did it today, so that's, I've got it out of the way. You did it at lunch.
It's just a cool thing.

Speaker 1 It's like, you know, it's a beautiful thing. That's the point.
It's so wonderful. And that's the point.
I'm just proud of, I'm proud of us. Good job, everybody.
Good job, you guys. We fucking did it.

Speaker 1 We're staying sexy. We're not getting murdered.
We're making friends. Extending yourself to people who might be in a, in a bad place.
That's kind of like,

Speaker 1 that's what we're looking for these days. Yeah.
And we're fucking, like, we're putting those fucking dumpstered alley lurkers in their place of like, no, you can't fucking, you can't do this, dude.

Speaker 1 No.

Speaker 1 Or, you know, maybe that guy was peeing. Either way, that girl got in her car and got home safe in the end.
Peers can attack people too. You know, maybe he was doing both.

Speaker 1 Maybe he had a pee and it could have been a pee attack. A pee attack.
Oh.

Speaker 1 This has been my favorite murder. Goodbye.
That was, that was gorgeous.

Speaker 1 Oh, my phone just told me Robert Durst hearings are,

Speaker 1 is it tomorrow?

Speaker 1 It's

Speaker 1 oh, the February 15th. Sorry.
It came up as an alert just now. That's really weird.
All right. Good job.
Hey, should we talk about

Speaker 1 how many minutes was that? We told people 10 minutes.

Speaker 1 22. What the fuck?

Speaker 1 Hey, Siri, how many minutes?

Speaker 1 Oh my god. Suri just started talking to me without me pressing anything.
You think my place is, my new place is haunted? Yes. Me too.

Speaker 1 And we're back. Oh, is this where Corner, Corner, Corner started? It is.
I don't remember me running away from you at the valet. What was that whole story? No idea.

Speaker 1 Because I was like racking my brain of like, where were we? Oh, remember when you stepped off the curb at that restaurant across from Meltdown?

Speaker 1 And you twisted your valet. That was a Chibo.
But I also remember the time we were walking out of, I think it was Milwaukee live show. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 And I just stepped off, did the exact same thing. I've done it many times.
You don't need a valet to twist your fucking head. Hell no, I'll do it anytime.

Speaker 1 So that Facebook group story that we talk about in here, to me, was the dawning of the galvanized community vibe of Murderinos, as opposed to the, I'd say the first year is like you and me blabbing it up, saying whatever the fuck that came into our minds, not understanding it was being recorded and posted forever.

Speaker 1 Right. And that we would be hearing about that.
So I think to me, that was the first year of like, wait, what are we actually doing? Yeah.

Speaker 1 And this is before people started realizing that their co-worker or their sister's friend or their running club partner is also listening. Right.
And then forming a bond over it. Right.

Speaker 1 And then that Facebook story is almost like then the bond was, I'm going to go out into the world with this energy.

Speaker 1 So if I see some weird shit happening to some girl I don't know, I'm going to back her up. That's right.
It's amazing. Beautiful thing.
Yeah. We're so proud.
We were just kind of like the

Speaker 1 thing around which people decided they were going to do things the way they wanted to do them. There you go.
Right? All right. Well, should we get into it? Let's do it.

Speaker 1 This episode is two awful, awful stories of two of the worst men that have ever existed. For real.
This first one, this is George's story about Nathaniel Barjona.

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Goodbye. Goodbye.

Speaker 1 I think you're first this week. Okay.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 let's start. What was that show called that you recently told me? The New Detectives? I had a story and then realized when looking it up that they had covered the story on that show.

Speaker 1 Not new detectives. Real detectives.
Real detectives.

Speaker 1 And so there was so much more to the story. So I was like, okay, I'm still going to do this, but I'm going to give a shout out to the show Karen likes at the same time.
All right.

Speaker 1 So in Worcester, Massachusetts in 1964, a kid named Nathaniel Bart Jonah is seven years old.

Speaker 1 He tells a five-year-old neighbor that he had just gotten a Ouija board, and she follows him into his basement to play with it. He attempts to strangle the five-year-old girl.

Speaker 1 The seven-year-old attempts to strangle the five-year-old girl. She screams.
His own mother comes down and rescues her. So like his mom knows something's up already.
You know what I mean?

Speaker 1 So this fucking seven-year-old cut to six years later in 1970, he's 13 years old. He lures another neighbor, a six-year-old boy, to a nearby hill saying that he wants to go sledding with him.

Speaker 1 And of course, he didn't go sledding. He ends up sexually assaulting the kid.

Speaker 1 And then in March 1975, 17-year-old Nathaniel Barjona, he's doing the fucking classic impersonation of an officer.

Speaker 1 a police officer, abducts an eight-year-old kid named Richard O'Connor, who's on his way to school, sexually assaults and strangles him.

Speaker 1 A neighbor saw this happening and notifies the police. They find a car matching the description in a parking lot.
They get him out of the car, and the kid is found in the car near death but alive.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 Nathaniel is arrested, charged, and convicted. But he receives, you ready for this? A year of probation

Speaker 1 for this crime.

Speaker 1 How? Yeah, because it's 1970.

Speaker 1 But

Speaker 1 probation. The kid's not dead.
I mean, he must have had some insane lawyer or some kind of. Yeah, that's crazy.
No, I think that happened all the time. Well, it gets worse.
Okay.

Speaker 1 It always gets worse.

Speaker 1 So a few days before he graduates from high school, he's again impersonating a police officer and he abducts a nine-year-old girl who he assaults savagely in his car and then later throws her from the car onto a sidewalk.

Speaker 1 She's still alive. And a witness gets his license plate, which leads to his arrest.
And this assault never gets back to his probation officer.

Speaker 1 And so he's released from parole from the earlier assault in 1976.

Speaker 1 And so

Speaker 1 when his probationary period is over, he receives a letter thanking him for his cooperation.

Speaker 1 So he never gets

Speaker 1 no.

Speaker 1 Sorry, What? His parole ends in 76. They catch him and I don't know if he ever got charged with anything after they found the kid, after he threw her out of her car.

Speaker 1 But the parole officer never finds out, or probation officer never finds out about it, so nothing is added to his side. What the fuck?

Speaker 1 So in September 1977, he's claiming to be an undercover FBI agent, and he convinces two boys to get into his car. He goes to a secluded area with them and he handcuffs them and assaults them.

Speaker 1 And he thought he had killed one of the boys, so he took the other one still alive in his trunk and drove off. But the kid he thought was dead was not dead.

Speaker 1 He regains consciousness and fucking finds help.

Speaker 1 And the boy who was kidnapped is found still alive in Nathaniel's trunk. So he's caught, convicted of attempted murder, and gets the maximum sentence of 18 to 20 years in prison.

Speaker 1 So fucking finally he's being incarcerated. So while he's incarcerated, he tells

Speaker 1 a psychologist there about his fantasies of murder, dissection, and cannibalism. It's a psychiatrist.

Speaker 1 And she, that psychiatrist decides to commit him to the Bridgewater State Hospital for the sexual predators, which I think means that you don't have a release date.

Speaker 1 I think they can keep you indefinitely. I could be wrong.
Guy Brennan, please let me know.

Speaker 1 So he stays in the hospital

Speaker 1 from 79 to 91

Speaker 1 when there's a hearing before Superior Court Judge Walter E. Steele, who needs to be fucking named.
Two psychiatrists say that

Speaker 1 Nathaniel Barrajona is a danger to society and he should not be let out. Two of them said he isn't.
So we got two and two.

Speaker 1 The judge sides with the, I said, the judge sided with the stupid ones and said that he thought that Nathaniel Barrajona would not commit the crime again and decided that the state had failed to prove he was dangerous.

Speaker 1 So this dude, fucking Superior Court Judge Walter E. Steele, lets bar Jonah out.

Speaker 1 Does his family have money? He must have amazing lawyers.

Speaker 1 I don't think it was that difficult then, though. You know what I mean? There's no Megan's Law.
There's none of this shit where, like,

Speaker 1 where they think predators and sexual abusers are even important enough to let their next-door neighbor who has children know that they're there. Like, it's not a priority.

Speaker 1 Yeah, but it's,

Speaker 1 I mean, these are attacks. They're physical attacks.
It just doesn't make sense. It doesn't make sense.
It would just be like,

Speaker 1 he attacks a little girl, throws her out of a car, and thanks for, thanks for doing such a great job in your parole. Like, that doesn't even track.
No, it doesn't.

Speaker 1 And it's the same when we're talking with Guy Brennan, where it's like, well,

Speaker 1 his intent was to kill these people. Why isn't he kept in prison in the same amount of time that someone who had actually killed them are?

Speaker 1 And it's just, because he got lucky for, you know, he just kept getting lucky. I think that's a good thing.
But I mean, that's beyond lucky where he's not getting arrested for it. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Like he's not even. I think it's a fucked up justice system at the time.
I think that's all it is.

Speaker 1 So he leaves the institution and he promises to not go back to Massachusetts, that instead he'll go to Montana.

Speaker 1 But Megan's Law is still being debated.

Speaker 1 It's not enacted yet, which, you know, as everyone knows, Megan's Law is that if you're a sexual offender, you have to notify everyone in the community and they're allowed to know where you live and all this.

Speaker 1 So, okay, so

Speaker 1 he has weekly garage sales selling Star Wars memorabilia and stuffed animals that attracts many local children.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 let's see, within a week, he commits another attack on a child.

Speaker 1 And then,

Speaker 1 no one in Montana is notified of his past crimes at all.

Speaker 1 So, on February 6th, 1996, 10-year-old Zachary Ramsey is on his way to school at about 7:30 a.m. He takes his usual school route through the alleyway.

Speaker 1 And remember those fucking shortcuts he used to take to school?

Speaker 1 Like, the shortcuts I used to take as a kid, the amount of places I could have been murdered in is just more than I couldn't have been murdered in. You know what I mean?

Speaker 1 Like fucking alleyways and like back alleys and fucking uh

Speaker 1 what are those called like the river dry riverbeds and just these horrible places

Speaker 1 um

Speaker 1 and a family who lives in along the alleyway reports seeing him but also sees an off-white four-door car that nearly runs him over.

Speaker 1 Another witness who lived in the area sees him distressed with an obese adult male following him a few feet behind at about 745.

Speaker 1 Zach then disappears, which is another thing of fucking, if you see something, fucking say something. If you see a little kid upset with

Speaker 1 an adult and something doesn't look right, you can be rude and be like, is everything okay here? You know what I mean? You're not going to get in trouble for it.

Speaker 1 Let's see.

Speaker 1 Okay. So the police investigate Zach Ramsey's

Speaker 1 kidnapping.

Speaker 1 And it turns out that Nathaniel Barjona, who was a known sex offender in the area, although there were a lot of them, has access to his mom's off-white four-door Toyota Corolla the day that Zach goes missing.

Speaker 1 And his mother was out of town for a funeral. And so he had the house to himself.

Speaker 1 And he also didn't work that day.

Speaker 1 So he stays away from the police until 99 when he's arrested near an elementary school in Great Falls, Montana. He's dressed as a policeman.

Speaker 1 He's carrying a stun gun and pepper spray and is like fucking targeting one of the kids there.

Speaker 1 And they search his apartment and they find a list of of boys' names, including previous victims that he had actually had, and the name Zachary Ramsey, the last word of which was died, because he had done these crazy

Speaker 1 encryptions. And so when the FBI finally took apart everything, they found all of these names.
There were dozens of newspaper clippings found in his apartment following the Zach Ramsey case.

Speaker 1 And a former roommate said that he found clothes in his apartment which matched Zachary Ramsey's clothes that he was wearing the day he disappeared and bloody gloves.

Speaker 1 So they also found encrypted menus referring to cannibalizing children and there were actual

Speaker 1 I don't want to

Speaker 1 hear them but like names of

Speaker 1 meals that were like puns on children being the fucking on the menu.

Speaker 1 It's pretty fuck. It's like it's almost it's too like It takes it too light.
I don't like it, but it's gross.

Speaker 1 Because he thinks he's being like funny.

Speaker 1 Yeah, it's just a disgusting sense of humanity. Yeah,

Speaker 1 it's not amusing in any way. It's fucked up.
And it's also said that he possibly

Speaker 1 cut up and served

Speaker 1 human meat of his victims to his neighbors at barbecues and cookouts and stews and hamburgers. And there was one woman, his neighbor, who said, this tastes really weird.
What is this?

Speaker 1 And he said, oh, it's a deer I found and I cut it up myself. And she remembers

Speaker 1 it tasting weird. I mean,

Speaker 1 he would have barbecues. Fucking imagine the eating disorder you would have if you were that neighbor.
Can you imagine ever trying? You'd be vegan for the rest of your life. Oh my god.
That's

Speaker 1 never eat meat again.

Speaker 1 I know. It's really horrible.
I know.

Speaker 1 Okay, and they also find a list of 22 names, many of which were past victims, known victims, but several have never been accounted for.

Speaker 1 And they also dug up the yard and found 21 bone fragments of a yet-to-be-identified boy estimated between 8 and 13. And it's not Zach Ramsey's bones.

Speaker 1 Okay, so in July 2000, he's charged with Zach Ramsey's murder and for kidnapping and sexually assaulting three other boys who lived above him in an apartment complex, who he would babysit, who is the mom would just leave him, leave the kids with him.

Speaker 1 Even though she was like, yeah, one of them started acting real weird after I let him babysit. And it's like, I didn't, you know.

Speaker 1 So, but the charges involving Zach Ramsey's murder are dropped because

Speaker 1 Zach's mom refused to believe that he was dead. And so would testify that Barjona, or Nathaniel Barjona never killed her son.
She was going to testify to that.

Speaker 1 But he's sentenced for the other charges to 130 years in prison. It's for sexually assaulting one kid and torturing another.

Speaker 1 And on April 13th, 2008, Nathaniel Barjona is found dead in his prison cell it's his death is either a heart attack or a brain clot I can't really a lot of different you know articles and then eventually a judge declares Zach Ramsey legally dead in 2011 despite his mom still objecting to that

Speaker 1 how fucked up is that

Speaker 1 it's super fucked up I just feel it's like one of those murder it's like one of those articles that's like 10 serial killers you've never fucking or 10 monsters you've never heard of and like why are you know why are these other people heard of?

Speaker 1 And he's not. He's just as huge of a fucking monster.
Well, that's the real detectives that I saw. Yeah.
That was the first one I saw. With the detective who's like crying.
It was crazy.

Speaker 1 And he chased that guy forever. And he literally chased, he tracked him down.
And by the time somebody said, oh, well, he kept hearing, oh, they went on the shortcut.

Speaker 1 So he walked the shortcut himself finally. Like it was like beat cops were telling him the information.
So he finally himself walked the shortcut.

Speaker 1 And when he came up the alley, Bar Jonas was standing at the top of the alley dressed like a security guard across the street from the grammar school.

Speaker 1 And the guy in the show is like, you know, like, and that's when I knew I had my guy. And, and the most horrible part, like, I looked into that too, of like, oh, would this be a good one to do?

Speaker 1 The details are so fucking disturbing. They're really dark, it's awful.
Yeah, it's just like, yeah, it's that kind of thing where it's like, oh, that's interesting.

Speaker 1 I feel like maybe that's a reason why it's he's one that you don't hear that much about. It's because it's like insanely disgusting and awful, and he did it to a bunch of kids.

Speaker 1 Well, what's so surprising to me about this story, and one of the reasons I think it's important to talk about is because Zach Ramsey was taking these shortcuts in 1996.

Speaker 1 Like, it wasn't the 80s or even the early 90s, which is when I was doing those things. It seems like more recent.
And I feel like he was alone early in the morning.

Speaker 1 And I know it seems like a well-traveled place and everyone's going to school, but

Speaker 1 you can't do those things. I don't think anyone does anymore.
And especially because people saw that happening and were like, this is weird. And like went on with their day.
Right.

Speaker 1 It's just so troubling. Well, and also that guy dressed, he did, I mean, he was like a real,

Speaker 1 he knew what he was doing.

Speaker 1 Like dressing like a security guard, that thing that people fall for all the time where it's like, oh, it's a cop it's a security guard it's the person standing outside the school that's dressed like an official must be a good person

Speaker 1 and to see like yeah it's yeah it's crazy and also that he

Speaker 1 um

Speaker 1 did it i mean the idea that like his first thing was when he was seven years old i couldn't find any information about his childhood and how

Speaker 1 You know, it could have not been fucked up at all. He could just be fucking crazy, but there had to be something going on that that he would try to strangle a five-year-old when he was seven.

Speaker 1 Yeah, makes you think of Mary Bell. Yeah, totally.
Just an outright evil kid. But also, what's happening? I mean, Mary Bell was a total victim as a very young child, and that affects you.

Speaker 1 And I wonder what could have happened. Like, his mom found him strangling a little girl.
You know, what could have been done to help him at that age? Yeah.

Speaker 1 And clearly, nothing was. Yeah.
Yeah. Clearly.
So intense. Yeah.
But also the really creepy thing is like seven.

Speaker 1 It's like the movie seven where he had all these notebooks, just tons and tons and tons of notebooks that they recovered. Yeah.
That was, he obsessively wrote about.

Speaker 1 I mean, he was, yeah, he was insanely crazy. It's like he knew that if he did get caught, he wanted there to be as much information as possible.
So he'd be talked about. Yeah.
And then I did it.

Speaker 1 And if you watched that episode of Real Detectives, the real detective that that solved that case, who talks about it, like at one point is crying on camera.

Speaker 1 Like he is so clearly, it's one of those things where that's the case of a lifetime and the horror, so horrible. Yeah.
Yep. Horrifying.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 Okay, we're done with that now. Let's

Speaker 1 talk about that again.

Speaker 1 Are there updates on this horrible case? Horrible case, no updates, but two books have come out recently about his crimes.

Speaker 1 Preponderance of Evil, the Nathaniel Barr Jonah story by Lori Olson, and also the book, Eat the Evidence by Dr. John E.
Espey. Those two came out in the past few years.

Speaker 1 So if you want more info, I mean, I've done deep dives since then on the story. It's just so awful, but there you go.
All right, let's get into another terrible fucking person. God.

Speaker 1 And much more famous. Much more famous.
Let's hear Karen's story about none other than Rodney Alcala, the dating game killer.

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Goodbye.

Speaker 1 You want to go?

Speaker 1 Woo! You mean leave right now?

Speaker 1 Um, mine is

Speaker 1 very well known this week.

Speaker 1 Uh,

Speaker 1 it's Rodney Alcala, the dating game killer.

Speaker 1 This one I've seen, like, I've seen the forensic files of this guy. I have seen like a 2020, like almost everything on Discovery ID.

Speaker 1 There's been every version of one of those shows, they have featured this guy. Because it's the dating game thing is such a fucking

Speaker 1 that. That's what did it for his fame.
Yeah, it's so insane. But there was one of those shows that kind of reverse engineered it where they followed the victim.

Speaker 1 And now I don't remember the show. I don't remember which victim it is because he has so very many.
But it's that thing where basically this girl goes missing and her family's trying to find her.

Speaker 1 Her family's trying to find her. And then

Speaker 1 eventually this cache of photographs, because Rodney Alcala is this photographer.

Speaker 1 And when he's finally arrested and they start going through thousands and thousands of photographs, they find a picture of her. And they finally realize, I think it was the hiker.

Speaker 1 She was a hiker and she was like a real outdoors woman. And then they find a picture among all these really disturbing pictures.

Speaker 1 And they can't identify all, like, there's so many of those photos are like tons. Do you know who this is? Or are they missing or what? Cold cases.
They say they're still online.

Speaker 1 Okay, so here's the basic story.

Speaker 1 And we'll start it here. In 1978, on the popular TV show, The Dating Game, host Jim Lang introduced Rodney Alcala as bachelor number one,

Speaker 1 is a successful photographer who got his start when his father found him in the darkroom at age 13, fully developed.

Speaker 1 What? Well, that's the show. Have you ever seen that show?

Speaker 1 So it's like sexual innuendo. Basically, it's basically like the fun sexual innuendo when you're not a serial rapist and killer is fun, but when you are, it's so horrifying.

Speaker 1 And the rest of that is between takes, you might find him skydiving or motorcycling.

Speaker 1 Or murdering. Actor Jed Mills, who was bachelor number two on the show and competed against Alcala,

Speaker 1 described him as a very strange guy with very bizarre opinions. And the funny thing is, the bachelorette, Cheryl Bradshaw, chose Alcala.

Speaker 1 He won the dating game, but when she met him, she refused to go out with him because she found him so creepy. Oh my God, I want to talk to her.

Speaker 1 She was right to find him creepy because he had already raped an eight-year-old girl and murdered four women when he was on that show. Four women already? Four women.

Speaker 1 And then he's he's like, I'm going to go on TV.

Speaker 1 And hockey. So he was basically mid-killing spree that had started.

Speaker 1 They believe in, well, he raped the eight-year-old girl in 1968.

Speaker 1 And then the killing began soon after. And he's in the middle of all that, goes on a game show.

Speaker 1 So yeah, he's completely out of his goddamn mind. And kind of like Luke Magnotti, like it's that thing of like,

Speaker 1 I want to be famous. I want everyone to see me.

Speaker 1 You can't catch me. Yeah.

Speaker 1 I'm smart. I'm smarter than everybody.
He did have 160 IQ. So he kind of was smarter than everybody in a way.
Fair enough.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 he committed his first known crime in 1968. A motorist in Los Angeles called the police after watching him lure an eight-year-old girl named Tally Shapiro into his Hollywood apartment.

Speaker 1 The girl was found alive, raped and beaten with a steel bar, but Alcala had already fled.

Speaker 1 So, to evade the resulting arrest warrant, he left the state and he enrolled in NYU film school under the name John Berger, where he studied under Roman Polanski. Oh, that's convenient.
Oh.

Speaker 1 Then he obtained in 1971, he got a counseling job at a New Hampshire arts camp for children

Speaker 1 using a different alias, John Berger.

Speaker 1 But in June of 1971, Cornelia Krilly, a 23-year-old trans

Speaker 1 TWA flight attendant, was found raped and strangled in her Manhattan apartment. That Cornelia's murder would remain unsolved for 40 years.
Holy shit.

Speaker 1 So she was one of the ones that, when they found the pictures, they started putting it up all together. Like this person was missing or murdered.
We don't know. Yeah.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 now Al Calo's on the, in 1971, he goes on the 10 Most Wanted Fugitives list.

Speaker 1 And a few months later, two children who are at this arts camp that he got the job at, they notice his photo on an FBI poster at the post office and they finger him. Fuck yeah, they do.
Some kids.

Speaker 1 So he's extradited to California.

Speaker 1 But by then, that eight-year-old girl that he had attacked,

Speaker 1 her parents had relocated the entire family to Mexico and they weren't coming back. Yeah.

Speaker 1 So they were unable to convict him

Speaker 1 of rape and attempted murder. So the prosecutors were forced to permit him to plead

Speaker 1 to a lesser charge

Speaker 1 of assault. So he's paroled after 34 months

Speaker 1 and

Speaker 1 assault. Yeah.

Speaker 1 He

Speaker 1 basically, it's the same thing. If he demonstrated evidence of rehabilitation, he got out early.

Speaker 1 He'd be nice for 34 months and you can get out whenever the fuck you want.

Speaker 1 So, two months after his release, he's rearrested after assaulting a 13-year-old girl

Speaker 1 who he had offered a ride to school, and she thought she was just getting a ride to school. And again, he's paroled after serving two years of an indeterminate sentence.

Speaker 1 So, after that release from prison,

Speaker 1 a LA parole officer takes the unusual step of permitting this repeat offender and known flight risk to travel to New York City. No.

Speaker 1 Irritating, but if he has 160 IQ and he's this level psychopath, he's probably incredibly charming and incredibly speculative. Yeah.
Totally. So he's, he's, you know, he.
I mean, it just sucks.

Speaker 1 He makes it work. Yeah.
It's crazy. Well, a lot of people just aren't capable of handling this level.
This is like it's super villain. Yeah.
It's savvy as fuck.

Speaker 1 And even a person who's of normal intelligence don't understand the like

Speaker 1 the nuances of manipulation probably. Right.
Have you seen the show Good Behavior with the girl who's the who's Mary from Downton Abbey? No. It's really good.
Is it? I love when we do

Speaker 1 TV show recommendations. It's well and also so in it she's like a con woman and she does these things.

Speaker 1 Like she started off being a con woman because she was addicted to drugs, but now she's doing it just to get money and like you watch it.

Speaker 1 It's really good but she does these things and it's you see how easy it would be to fall for it because like she'll go in and she'll she has a really nice outfit on and she looks like she has a lot of money and she's like a high-end resort and then she's like shopping for jewelry so she'll be like oh can i see that there my husband wants my husband said i could get one thing and so i'm gonna pick it and so while the guy she's shopping and chatting and giggling and they're drinking champagne and then she's making the guy go get her things away from the counter and while he's gone she's just loading her purse with the jewelry she's trying on, but she's doing these switcharounds.

Speaker 1 So she's like, never,

Speaker 1 you know what I mean? It's all very believable. And then she walks out.
He's not going to know anything is gone until way later. And it's, that's what it makes me think of.

Speaker 1 Did she see the movie Paper Moon? It's one of my favorite movies in the world. With the O'Neill family? With Satan O'Neal and Ryan O'Neal.
And they do that. And it's...

Speaker 1 They're grifters. And it's just one of my absolute favorite movies.
And you would never fucking know what they're doing. It's so good.
Well, that's because you have to be good to get away with it.

Speaker 1 Yeah. And that's how you're good.
Casual. You have to be casual about it.
And you have to be like friendly and kind of charming and alluring. So people are like, oh, no, it would never be her.

Speaker 1 The pretty, they're probably good looking. Like, I get nervous that people think I'm shoplifting even when I have no intention and I'm never going to shoplift.

Speaker 1 It's like, I'm still like, I'm not shoplifting. So you have to be pretty fucking

Speaker 1 steely, but also like super charming. Yeah.
So clearly that's this guy. Yeah.
So he convinces his parole officer to let him go to New York.

Speaker 1 And while he's there, a week after he gets to Manhattan, he kills Ellen Jane Hover, who is 23 and the daughter of the owner of Ciro's, which is a Hollywood nightclub.

Speaker 1 She was the goddaughter of Dean Martin and Sammy Davis Jr. She was like an heiress.
She had a lot of money and her remains were found buried on the grounds of the Rockefeller, the Rockefeller

Speaker 1 estate in Westchester County. How did he even get in there?

Speaker 1 Well,

Speaker 1 it's probably

Speaker 1 whatever. He probably went to like a club and she was there.
And he's, you see pictures of him. He's super creepy now.
Yeah. Like you see pictures of him in gel and he has like really long,

Speaker 1 like salt and pepper, creepy, curly hair. Ramen, dry ramen hair.

Speaker 1 But I, you know, back then it was like the late 70s, and it was that kind of looking for Mr. Goodbar era of like pickup clubs, and everyone was like post-hippie,

Speaker 1 you know, feeling it era i don't know um

Speaker 1 but he also did the thing where he was a photographer right he was playing like the artist side um for a little while he worked at the la times as a typesetter and um he was at one point interviewed um

Speaker 1 by the members of the hillside strangler task force as part of their investigation when they were interviewing known sex offenders.

Speaker 1 He was ruled out as the Hillside Strangler, but he got arrested and served a brief sentence for marijuana possession.

Speaker 1 So they got him for that. Thank God.

Speaker 1 But he also, during this time, he convinced a bunch of young men and women that he was a professional fashion photographer and photographed them for his portfolio.

Speaker 1 And he showed that portfolio to his

Speaker 1 coworkers at the LA Times. And there were people who are quoted as saying,

Speaker 1 I thought it was weird, but I didn't, you know, I didn't know because he said he was like a fashion photographer. And so I just remember there was a bunch of naked girls.
Oh my gosh.

Speaker 1 And he would show it to people, like, This is my, this is my portfolio. Creepy.
It's so fucking creepy. So he's, he's totally flaunting it.

Speaker 1 Um, and of course, everyone's just like, oh, I guess that's high fashion photography.

Speaker 1 So in 1979, he knocks, um, he knocks unconscious and rapes 15-year-old Monique Hoyt as she's posing

Speaker 1 for him for one of those shoots.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 then he goes on the dating game, which was also in, I believe, 1979, around that same time.

Speaker 1 And they think that because, or he was on the dating game in 1978. So they think because of that

Speaker 1 rejection of the girl

Speaker 1 on the uh dating game being like, There's no fucking way I'm going out with that guy. Um,

Speaker 1 because right after that, a 12-year-old girl from Huntington Beach named Robin Samso disappeared on her way between the beach and ballet class. It was, it was June 20th, 1979, when this happened.

Speaker 1 Um, 12 days later, her decomposing body was found in the Los Angeles foothills. Um, I know I did

Speaker 1 something like that. A guy saying, I'm a photographer when I was like 17.
No, like 18. And you did what? I went and took photos with him in the fucking Santa Monica Mountains.
Holy shit.

Speaker 1 I've never told anyone this.

Speaker 1 This guy should have killed me. But he just took pictures of you and drove you home? Yeah, he was a regular at this restaurant I was working at and was like, he came in all the time.

Speaker 1 He was like, I'm a photographer. I'd love to take photos of you.
And I'm like, okay. And we went up to Santa Monica Hills.
And that was when I was like, oh shit, I'm alone with this guy.

Speaker 1 In the fucking forest. In the fucking hills, overlooking the ocean.
And like, there was, he was so nice at the restaurant. And the minute his eye went to the camera lens, he looked fucking evil.

Speaker 1 I remember thinking, you need to fucking, this is not okay. And so I kept asking about his mom.

Speaker 1 And he kept telling about his mother. And it was almost like I was, I kind of knew something was not right.
And I needed to talk to him a lot. And then we just went home.

Speaker 1 But my whole, my heart was racing the whole time jesus and i don't know what happened to him and i kind of just i think i quit soon after that it was just that i should have been dead that's insane i know and i i'm so embarrassed of that that i don't tell people that but it reminds me so much of the story right well also because there's an there's another guy um that's on like i've seen like three different you know uh

Speaker 1 id discovery things about the guy that he would approach women in malls and say that he was a photographer that he was a casting director Right.

Speaker 1 He wanted to take their picture because he was casting for the latest, was it Batman or some, like the latest big movie? And they would go meet him

Speaker 1 and then they would disappear. And they were meeting him at houses that were for sale.
Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah.
So he was going in and basically meeting them in empty, like

Speaker 1 houses that he knew that the real estate agent, like was showing. He would go have it shown to him, have them meet them there, and then attack them there.

Speaker 1 And he had killed a couple girls, and then one girl got away, and that's how he got caught. So it's this exact same thing.

Speaker 1 And I mean,

Speaker 1 I don't want to say it because I feel so stupid, but I was like 18 and like I was new to LA and I was so flattered that someone wanted to take my photo and it was the 90s and I didn't understand.

Speaker 1 And I thought I knew this person. He's so nice all the time.
Of course. So when I say fuck politeness, it's because I've done shit that I've probably

Speaker 1 been really like unsafe. And it's just, I want to cry thinking about it.
I feel so fucking stupid for having done that.

Speaker 1 Yeah, but that's the whole manipulation is that they're playing on, like, we're, then we're supposed to be embarrassed that we had, you know, the pride.

Speaker 1 Oh, who are we to think that we'd have our picture taken? Yeah. When actually that's, that's the play.
That's the whole thing is how they get you. Is like, of course, you're flattered.

Speaker 1 And then you have a little ego stroke. And then, oh my God, maybe I am a model.
And it's all those things that then it's the shame of that that's supposed to like keep you quiet. Yeah.

Speaker 1 And fuck that shit. It's like it's that's that's their doing, that's what they're doing to you.

Speaker 1 Any human being that gets that kind of special attention is going to go, oh my god, yeah, I want that special attention. That's what we all want.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 That's everybody wants to be told that they're pretty and want, you know, have their picture taken. And that's it's the easiest way to manipulate people.

Speaker 1 And I just remember the moment it took a turn and I got scared and realized something was not right.

Speaker 1 Thank fucking God nothing happened. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Okay. Sorry, go on.

Speaker 1 Anyway, so Robin Samso's friends told the police that a stranger had approached them at the beach asking to take their pictures. And

Speaker 1 they circulate a sketch of the photographer. Alcala's parole officer recognizes him in this sketch.

Speaker 1 And then they search his house in Monterey Park and they find a rental receipt for a storage locker in Seattle. So then they go into that storage locker and they find a pair of Robin Samso's earrings.

Speaker 1 So he's basically killing people, taking the,

Speaker 1 why don't I ever remember the word for it? The trophy? Yeah, the trophy, but then he's keeping it like in a different state. Okay.

Speaker 1 So he's arrested in 1979, held without bail. He's tried, convicted, and sentenced to death for Robin Samso's murder.

Speaker 1 But the verdict is overturned because jurors had been improperly informed of his prior sex crimes. No.

Speaker 1 So then in 1986, seven years later, they retry him for the same, it's the identical trial,

Speaker 1 except for omission of the prior record. And he's convicted again and sentenced to death again.

Speaker 1 And the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals panel nullifies the second conviction. Why?

Speaker 1 In part because a witness was not allowed, who was not allowed, no, sorry, a witness was not allowed to support Alcala's contention that the park ranger who found Samso's body had been, quote, hypnotized by police investigators.

Speaker 1 So there was somebody that wanted to, Alcala said,

Speaker 1 this park ranger was hypnotized by the police. That's why he's saying this happened.
He had a friend who was going to back him up. And they were like, no, your friend doesn't get to say that.

Speaker 1 And then they find, once they find that out, they're like, the whole thing has to go. Oh my God.
So they keep getting it like on these weird um

Speaker 1 little details

Speaker 1 all right and this goes i mean he's in prison the whole time though right he is

Speaker 1 yeah he's held without bail i'm not sure

Speaker 1 if you ask me details about this i'm not going to be able to tell you i threw this together so quickly but this is the kind of thing you can look up his name and watch 1,000 shows about him because he's he basically they say he's like

Speaker 1 because of these pictures and the cold cases that they believe are associated with these pictures he's only he only goes to jail for um

Speaker 1 four murders but they think he he's responsible for over a hundred holy they just can't prove it over a hundred over a hundred worst he's he's one of the worst serial killers ever

Speaker 1 and he's still alive yeah and in jail um doesn't he keep um appealing

Speaker 1 i keep seeing him in i keep seeing him getting older and older in like news photos. With that crazy hair.

Speaker 1 Well, he does, he has all these, and it's crazy because he's, again, one of those geniuses that's like, at one point, he represents himself

Speaker 1 and

Speaker 1 then cross-examines himself and is talking in a deep voice as one person and then his own voice and the other. Like, it's that kind of total insanity.

Speaker 1 thing that you you know it's what that's Ted Bundy he represented himself they all kind of think like it's it's, they just think they're invincible and that they're the smartest people in the world.

Speaker 1 But essentially, in 2003, Orange County investigators, they learned Alcala's DNA

Speaker 1 had matched semen left at the rape murder scenes of two women in Los Angeles. And that's when they start linking cold case DNA to this guy.

Speaker 1 And it led to his indictment for the murders of four additional women. Jill Barkomb, who was 18, a New York runaway who was found rolled up like a ball in a Los Angeles ravine in 1977.

Speaker 1 They thought she was a victim of the Hillside Stranglers.

Speaker 1 Georgia Wickstead, 27, who was bludgeoned in her Malibu apartment in 1977,

Speaker 1 which is super weird because Malibu is so fucking tony and high-end. And this is that thing of like, like that,

Speaker 1 the sister, Cyros heiress, who he clearly was able to like be in and out of very tony high-end places and with those kind of people. You don't break into a like high-end Malibu location.
No.

Speaker 1 You talk your way in. Like, I feel weird at the Starbucks in Malibu.
Like, you just feel like you don't belong. Totally.
And they know it.

Speaker 1 Charlotte Lamb was 31. She was raped and strangled in the laundry room of her El Segundo apartment complex in 1978.
And Jill Parento, who was 21, who was killed in her Burbank apartment in 1979.

Speaker 1 And all of these bodies were found posed in carefully chosen positions.

Speaker 1 Which I think then they eventually led to understanding that he was posing them and taking pictures of them. Oh, my God.

Speaker 1 And they found another pair of earrings in the Seattle storage locker that matched Charlotte Lamb's DNA. So they're kind of, it all starts hooking back over and over.

Speaker 1 So eventually the police find a collection of more than a thousand photographs, and they're mostly of women and teenage boys in sexually explicit poses.

Speaker 1 In his third trial in 2003, prosecutors enter a motion to join the Samso charges with those of the four newly discovered victims.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 so his attorneys, of course, try to contest it, like you basically saying

Speaker 1 you can give the benefit of the doubt or whatever they call it, reasonable doubt for one, but you can't do it with four.

Speaker 1 But

Speaker 1 they ruled in the prosecution's favor. And in February of 2010, he stood trial on five joined charges.
I can't believe it's so recent. I know.
It's not weird.

Speaker 1 It seems like it should have been so long ago this happened. Because he was doing it for so fucking long.
But I think it was that thing of they had him on one and he was in jail for one.

Speaker 1 And then suddenly it was that DNA era that came through. And it was like all of a sudden.
And that's what, that was when all those

Speaker 1 specials come out. It's like in those late, in the late 90s, we're like, they just found found this guy.
Yeah, a lot of them have that feel to it of like this guy, pardon me.

Speaker 1 Um,

Speaker 1 he, when he was his own lawyer, he showed the jury a portion of his 1978 appearance on the dating game

Speaker 1 in an attempt to prove that the earrings that were found in that Seattle locker were his own and not Samso's. And they end up bringing Jed Mills, bachelor number two, to this trial

Speaker 1 so that he can say, I would have remembered if a guy was wearing earrings. It was 1978.
He was not wearing earrings. What the fuck? Yeah.
It is that crazy.

Speaker 1 And then eventually they get Talia, the eight-year-old girl that he had raped in the late 60s. Oh my God, and she comes and testifies

Speaker 1 so that they can keep this guy in jail. Holy shit.

Speaker 1 In March 2010, the Huntington Beach and New York City police departments released 120 of his photographs, seeking the public's help to identify the people in them in the hope of determining if any of the women and children he photographed were additional victims.

Speaker 1 There are 900 additional photos that could not be made public because they were too sexually explicit. So he was like a fucking

Speaker 1 hideous kiddie porn, you know, like pornographer, exploitive

Speaker 1 pig, obviously. Wow.

Speaker 1 The police reported that approximately 21 women had come forward to identify themselves.

Speaker 1 And six families said that they believe they recognized loved ones who had disappeared years ago and were never found.

Speaker 1 They saw their missing loved ones in these photos.

Speaker 1 But none of the photos were unequivocally connected to a missing person case or an unsolved murder until 2013, when a family member recognized the photo of Christine Thornton, who was 28, whose body was found in Wyoming in 1982.

Speaker 1 I did not even hear about this. Yeah.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 as of September 2016, last year, 110 of those original photos remain posted online, and the police continue to solicit the public's help with further identifications.

Speaker 1 Let's all go to them right fucking now. In 2016, he was charged with this 1977 murder of a woman who was identified through one of those photos.

Speaker 1 And just

Speaker 1 in closing, which I find fascinating and interesting, his diagnoses when he was in court, the psychiatrist diagnosed him as having a narcissistic personality disorder and malignant narcissistic personality disorder with psychopathy and sexual sadism comorbidities.

Speaker 1 Jesus. Comorbidities.
That's the fucking trifecta

Speaker 1 you don't want to end up with. You don't want the word comorbidities

Speaker 1 anywhere near you. No.

Speaker 1 Do you want to know what it means? It's It's the presence of one or more additional diseases or disorders co-occurring.

Speaker 1 Including morbid, including

Speaker 1 liking dead bodies, maybe?

Speaker 1 No, I think morbid just is like gruesome or something. We'll have to ask Guy Brandon.
We will have to ask. I'm sure everyone will tell us on Twitter.

Speaker 1 That was not the greatest version of trying to tell the Rodney Alcali. No,

Speaker 1 that was very detailed. Did I do all right? You did a great timeline, really interesting.
I had some personal information to share as well. I liked that.
You know what I mean?

Speaker 1 It actually gets worse than that, and I'll tell you afterwards. But

Speaker 1 no, I know.

Speaker 1 Yeah, that was a good story.

Speaker 1 Well, I just recommend anybody that's, if you are slightly interested, take a deep dive because he is

Speaker 1 really horrifying and kind of another one of those lesser known, but very

Speaker 1 depraved and horrifying monster people we this was an episode of monster people monster people for sure people from the depths of fucking hell yeah and plus the dating game plus the dating game plus the pacific northwest is always got a mix in there somehow you know it just has to be in there um it's depressing uh

Speaker 1 oh yvey we're back Karen, updates? There are updates. So it was eventually confirmed that Rodney Alcala killed at least seven women and young girls.
He was sentenced to death in California.

Speaker 1 He died of natural causes in July of 2021 while awaiting that execution.

Speaker 1 And then after his death, a woman named Morgan Rowan reached out to investigator Steve Hodel to share details of her 1968 attack.

Speaker 1 She was 16 at the time, and she had met Alcala on a few different occasions. She was attacked and raped at his house, and her friends broke into the room to rescue her, and then he fled.
Oh my God.

Speaker 1 So she said she was ashamed to tell her parents. She never reported the attack, thing that happens a lot to women.
Six weeks after, she learns of his attack, rape, and the survival of Tally Shapiro.

Speaker 1 And she, of course, struggles with guilt for decades. Eventually, she connects with Tally and apologizes.
And when she does, Tally tells her there was nothing to forgive. It wasn't her fault.

Speaker 1 And these two survivors, they live a few hours apart in California, but they remain chosen family to each other. I've seen that.

Speaker 1 There's a documentary about it, and these strong, incredible women are in it. And it's just, I highly recommend it.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 Also, during the story, I talked about my experience at 18 with that guy who drove me to the Santa Monica Hills to take my picture.

Speaker 1 So I've discussed it in our book, Stay Sexy and Don't Get Murdered, in the fuck politeness chapter. I also talk about on episode 472, Give Me All My Words.
So there you go.

Speaker 1 I think that in doing that, though, I think you are in a gray area where you get to speak for people who, if you've had experiences that in your mind, you've always filed it as less than bad, less than a friend's, less than a different story that you've heard.

Speaker 1 Yeah. That you're always mitigating your own.

Speaker 1 trauma process basically by saying, don't worry about it because it's not bad.

Speaker 1 And you gave yourself and then other people permission to go, it's as bad as I say it was to to me because it happened to me. And then also, yeah, for sure.

Speaker 1 And then also the understanding that I have of so many moments in my life that I'm sure we all do of like,

Speaker 1 by the skin of my teeth,

Speaker 1 like what could have happened. And I think about that so much and I'm embarrassed and ashamed.
And so I don't talk about it because I think it's my fault. I'm stupid for having done that.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 But that's not, that's not how we talk about. ourselves and our experiences.
No. And it's certainly not the way the women of today do it.
They don't do that to themselves.

Speaker 1 So us Gen Xers and late millennials and all the people that were raised on that bullshit can really just put it aside, I think, from now on. Definitely.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 Okay. Let's listen to the end of episode 54.

Speaker 1 How about a good thing? How about a good thing? How about it? I did my apartment, my new apartment last time. It's beautiful.
Thank you. I really like it.
Why don't you do...

Speaker 1 Oh, no, no, I did the jacuzzi cat last time. Jacuzzi Cat, and I saw your picture.

Speaker 1 on my instagram on jacuzzi cat is real hardstark is my instagram and there's a fucking sweet picture of jacuzzi cat who i've seen since gus the jacuzzi cat is legit and he's so chill

Speaker 1 legit and the real deal he is i guess i've already bragged now twice at you about my best thing but my best thing is just it's so fun to work on a job Right now, it's just fun to perform again on TV.

Speaker 1 It's really fun to have

Speaker 1 fake eyelashes on all day long. I love fake eyelashes.
Aren't they the best? Oh my God, they make you like a queen. Yeah, it's pretty fun.

Speaker 1 And for me, like, it's just a period of, I just didn't think I was going to be performing anymore. And like,

Speaker 1 10 years ago, if you would ask me if any of these things would be happening, I'd be like, you're insane. I'm stuck in an office building in Burbank and I will never leave here.

Speaker 1 So I'm very, I feel grateful and like kind of just excited and

Speaker 1 I don't know.

Speaker 1 No, I'm happy. I feel fingernails, fingernails, fingernails about it.
What's that mean? Oh, yeah.

Speaker 1 Like kind of fancy and like, oh yeah, maybe I should have a manicure. Like, maybe I should try.
You need to. I've been in like a bit.

Speaker 1 I've said this a million times, but I've been in a, I've been in a cave for almost a decade. And look at you coming out of it.
Look at me out of the cave. I love it.

Speaker 1 And it's all because of nails, probably.

Speaker 1 The thing I love is, and I tried about it,

Speaker 1 is I've been posting political stuff on Instagram and Twitter and you know how scary it is to do that because you're immediately like refreshing to see people saying mean stuff to you but so many people have been saying really nice things

Speaker 1 and the ACLU is a fucking entity that I'm so happy to donate to and to and that are fighting for us and so I started crying when I saw all the like positive comments from people on my political posts.

Speaker 1 I just want to read one thing because you wrote this tonight and I retweeted it. Oh, I know.
Thank you.

Speaker 1 Because it's beautifully written and it's exactly right. With all this stuff that's happening in our country right now, which is incredibly scary.

Speaker 1 And I have a lot of friends who like talk about it all the time. We're like, I don't know what to do.
This is insane. This is insanity.
This is so scary. And you, you tweeted this tonight.

Speaker 1 You said, we have an amazing opportunity to atone for the atrocities past generations inflicted on those deemed different and undesirable. And then you did the hashtag love Trump's hate.

Speaker 1 And it really feels like that's what's happening right now: those people that are fucking taken to the streets, who, when somebody puts down a Muslim ban in order to say that certain people can't come to this fucking country, people immediately show up in the streets going, no fucking way.

Speaker 1 That's, and to see it happening, I mean, that, I sat in the grocery store parking lot staring at my phone for an hour and crying and going, holy fuck. All these people at airport, it's so empowering.

Speaker 1 And like, up until like a week ago, I was not looking at articles. I was feeling so beat down.
And maybe it's because

Speaker 1 my Lexapro got doubled. I don't know.
But suddenly I'm feeling really like positive and empowered and not scared of reading these articles and like excited to be part of it.

Speaker 1 We've been told for a year that the majority wants this.

Speaker 1 And basically people are showing up in the streets to say, The majority does not want this. No.
I am here to say I don't want this. It's an amazing, beautiful thing.
And you see it now.

Speaker 1 The thing that people are tweeting tonight is showing all these people that are protesting at these airports. And they're protesting at airports in the middle of the country.

Speaker 1 People keep tweeting, oh, look at these,

Speaker 1 look at these coastal elites in the middle of Kansas, in the middle of,

Speaker 1 you know, wherever they were. It was like the,

Speaker 1 it was like a joke. A couple different people made the coastal elites joke because it was an airport in Texas.
It was an airport in Wyoming.

Speaker 1 Well, you know, what's so great too is that I feel like for years in every administration, there's been so many things that should, that people are up in arms about and that everyone's like, what do we do about this?

Speaker 1 And nobody's protested because it's.

Speaker 1 You don't know what to do. It's not big enough.
There's not enough people. There's not this army to protest with.
And suddenly it feels like we're not letting these things happen now.

Speaker 1 And it's, there's definitely things that in the past should have been protested like this and haven't been. 100%.
And now everyone knows there is a way for every single person to get involved.

Speaker 1 And it's kind of empowering to when everyone's like, I don't know what to do. And it's like, here are five things you can do.
Just go online, and there's protests. You can donate money.

Speaker 1 You can donate time. You can, you know, tweet something.

Speaker 1 You can make phone calls. It's just, there's a lot to do.
You can express yourself. Yeah.

Speaker 1 But it is very, I love the fact that it kind of kicked off with the women's march and all of the women's marches being five times bigger than they thought any of them were going to be.

Speaker 1 But then this, these airport protests, watching, and it's people I know that are out there, watching people show up by the thousands to say, you cannot do this to people, is beautiful.

Speaker 1 And that's what we have to remember.

Speaker 1 That's what we have to remember. That's the majority.
Yeah. That is truly the majority.
Yeah. And then maybe, again, maybe it's a lexopro, but I'm fucking over my fear and anxiety of protesting.

Speaker 1 Like I'll be, I'll be out there. Oh, being in a crowd.
Yeah. It's hard to be in a crowd.
I know, but it's necessary now. Now I realize it's fucking necessary.

Speaker 1 And I don't care if I get a little overwhelmed by it. It's

Speaker 1 well, it could be beautiful too. Yeah.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 It's funny, our good things could be translated into today. Yes.
With seamlessly, unfortunately. It's just like such a strange loop that we are in.
And it is so weird.

Speaker 1 Like the exact same topics, it's just like the proper nouns are being switched out for it's a different group of people being targeted. It's a different group of people.
It's so shitty.

Speaker 1 Look, we love progress, not perfection, but can we get a little bit of both? Please,

Speaker 1 progress. Great.
Some imperfect progress would be incredible.

Speaker 1 All right. Well, it's time to rename this episode.
This one was originally entitled Valet Area. But if we're naming it today, maybe we would call it Yip Yap.

Speaker 1 It does not sound like anything you would ever say. Yeah.
We're going to Yip Yap and Georgia jokes that people who aren't into it will join in 20 minutes. Great, skippers, skippers.

Speaker 1 We also do, of course, corner, corner, corner. That's the one that it feels thematically feels like it's really there.
Now we know it'd be a part of it. Yeah.

Speaker 1 So, and then also, Guy Brennan, please let me know. And we're not going to say goodbye right now here in 2025 because in 2017, I think we did a pretty damn good job.

Speaker 1 It's one of the best things we do on this episode.

Speaker 1 So, thanks for listening to Rewind. We appreciate you.
Yeah, come back next week.

Speaker 1 Thanks for listening. Go to myfavorite murder.com if you are so inclined.
I don't know. We're on Twitter and Instagram and Facebook.
I don't know.

Speaker 1 Thanks for listening. I mean, you don't have to do any of those things.
We just appreciate you listening. We really appreciate you listening and please stay sexy.
Don't get murdered.

Speaker 1 Bye. Bye.

Speaker 1 Elvis, you want a cookie?

Speaker 1 Mimi, it's your big chance. Do you want a cookie? Mimi, you want a cookie?

Speaker 1 That was Elvis.

Speaker 1 All right. And Steven, thank you for being awesome.

Speaker 1 No one brings out your inner monster like a bad neighbor.

Speaker 1 Claire Danes and Matthew Reese find that out for themselves in The Beast in Me, a new eight-episode drama from the team that brought you homeland. Danes plays Aggie Wiggs, a grieving writer.

Speaker 1 Reese plays Niall Jarvis, her new neighbor and possible murderer. But who's the monster and who's the bad neighbor? That's another story.

Speaker 1 It's a game of cat and mouse that sets them on a collision course with fatal consequences. The Beast and me now playing only on Netflix.
You will not want to miss this. Goodbye.
Goodbye.

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Goodbye. Goodbye.

Rewind with Karen & Georgia - 54: Valet Area

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Transcript

More episodes from My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark

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