483 - Those Pants, That Hand

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This is Danielle Fishel from Podmeets World.

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Hello and welcome to My Favorite Murder.

That's Georgia Hartstark.

That's Karen Kilgareff.

And we're here to podcast for you once again.

We're going to do it every week if we can, if the mood strikes us.

If we have the sweaters with the colors that are needed to combine and be together magenta and lime green.

What would you call this lime green?

Yeah. Right? Yeah.
With a little forest. little forest yeah it's loud it's very loud well it looks like a nice 60s polyester blouse okay no no that's fucking fast fashion no no i mean no fast fashion with a retro bent yeah yeah speaking of retro Speaking of retro and bent, I finally did it.
I watched Pride and Prejudice. Oh, wow.
How'd it go? It went great. Vince was at a wrestling show.
I was alone on like a Saturday night with my wine. What do I do? I had caught up with the valley.
And so I was like, oh, holy shit. I'm going to do this.
I there was not a moment a moment I was bored. Not a fucking moment.
Right. Yes.
Which is like, that's all I ask for in a movie. Yep.
You know? Yes. I wanted more.
I fucking loved it. So good.
It was really fucking good. Right? Yeah.
It just really gets undersold as like a chick flick or like a, oh, Jane Austen, where it's like, it's such a gorgeous unfurling of a film in front of you. I know Vince would have loved it if you were home.
Like I didn't need to watch it without him at all. So good.
In fact, it probably would have been better with him. I don't know.
What was your favorite part? The first dance dance party. When he slams her and then she slams him back.
When they first go in. Yeah.
like and then it's also like i know that actress i know that actress i think every actress that's famous today yes you know them yeah the mom could have done without her brenda blethlin well that was the idea i know i know that's like the point but worst mom ever yeah it was oh and then like i got choked up actually got me like you know don't cry. But when she fucking told him off when they were on the cliff or whatever, I got like emotional.
When she was like, and your dad, that was, I was supposed to take it as a compliment. You hate my family and think I'm shit.
I can't believe I love you. Well, fuck you.
You know, it was very, it was good. That's Elizabeth Bennett.
She does that in every circumstance. My favorite is also the first dance when she, because I'm always like, how does one meet that type of rejection, which everybody fears it? Yeah.
How would you do that with a smile on your face and be like, even if their partner was a little plain or whatever the line is, and then walk away where it's just like you. Devastating.
Especially if it was Matthew McFadden. You'd just be like, how come I'm not doing that? Devastating.
Devastating. She's kind of like.
Whatever. Yeah.
She has so many good lines. Wait, here's my other best favorite part.
Okay. Because also you should watch Vera, the British detective show, because the mother plays a detective.
Okay. And I also need to watch the other versions of Pride and Prejudice, because everyone had a fucking opinion.
I'm not mad at them about this, I guess, for once in my life. So I want to watch the other versions and find out.
For sure. This series is great because it's a binge that then lasts.
It's not just an hour and a half. It's like however many episodes.
I can't remember. And that's the great one with Colin Firth.
Sure. He plays a different kind of Mr.
Darcy, though. I don't know if I'd be attracted to Colin Firth.
Yeah, that's my feeling. Right.
But Matthew McFadden's coming across that field at you. I didn't think I'd be attracted to him ever.
And then. Oh, yeah.
Those pants. Fucking.
Oh, those pants. That hand.
Yeah. But how about Dame Judi Dench's star turn? Yeah.
I mean, when she comes to that house to be like, you tell me if you are marrying my nephew. It can't be born.
It can't be born. And she's just like, I've got this.
It's a perfect movie. Yeah, it's good.
I enjoyed it. I'm so glad.
So we're here. So here we are.
Well, stop acting mad because I'm so glad. I'm'm so excited also it's one of those ones where like it's a go back to because there's things you missed oh also we're not even mentioning what perfectly prepared potatoes that part where the priest cousin comes and that guy the weird cousin was so good he's the and do you remember do you know he was from season two white lotus the.
That Jennifer Coolidge was hanging out with. Oh, my God.
Same actor. He's an 80s actor, too, though, isn't he? He's been around for a long time, but he is like one of the best of the best.
Oh, my God. In England.
He's the bad gay. Yes.
Tom. These bad gays.
That's a line from it. We're not fucking.
Yes. That's Jennifer Coolidge.
Yeah. Being quoted.
These gays are going to kill me. Oh, that's good.

Oh, I'm overjoyed.

Okay, good.

But let's, what do you have?

What have you got?

Let's move on from it. Perfectly prepared potatoes.

I won't.

I'm just going to keep misquoting the movie, which is driving people who really know every word of the movie.

But people on TikTok have made t-shirts with him on it.

And then it says, what perfectly? Prep perfectly prepared potatoes I wish I could remember it but it's like it says what perfectly prepared potatoes right it's just like him looking down like it's a fan shirt yeah I love it so good can I just let you know real quick yeah what excellent boiled potatoes is the phrase and it's Tom Hollander thank you Molly Molly thank you did you know what excellent boiled potatoes off the dome? I had to Google if I am going to be clean about this. Please always be clean.
There's no reason not to. Thank you for that info.
There's no shame. I just did it wrong eight times in a row.
You get to do it wrong if you want to. What excellent boiled potatoes and what a perfectly appointed room.
Something like that. Yeah.
Just like bad small talk. That's good.
So good. Okay.
I'm so glad. Yeah.
Thank you. Thank you guys for fucking yelling at me until I did it.
It was for my own good. Right.
It was for my own good. Do you feel different? I feel more open-minded to movies like that.
Okay. Then I have a recommendation.
Okay. There's another one and there's a couple versions of it and it's called Persuasion.
Okay, someone else mentioned that in the comments. The original Persuasion is so good.
Okay. And it is one of those love stories of, like, it's too late.
She made the wrong call, and she lost him forever. Devastating.
Okay. But did she? Our Jane Austen doesn't devastate permanently.
Okay. And it is so beautifully acted.
And it's the same thing where you're in this place. It's so real.
These houses, these estates they live on, whatever. And like what it does to people, what people are like.
I don't know. It's great.
Vera and Persuasion, I will do that. And you don't have to watch.
You don't have to go all the way into Vera. You'll just be blown away at what an amazing actress Brenda Blathen is because she's like a completely different person and not.
That mother is like the kind of mother that would say a thing that would humiliate you and the whole family in front of as many people as possible. Oh, I have one of those.
It's hard. Oh, I've met one of those before.
It's painful. And not even on purpose.
I feel like I have to say that. Like, not on purpose.
No. That's your personality.
Right. It's tough.
Yeah. Yeah.
She's squeamish. Yeah.
Okay. Well, should we talk about merch for one second? Oh, sure.
Okay. Because it's fucking hilarious this week.
Well, this is very exciting. So we each got to design our own merch.
Didn't get to. We just fucking did it.
And then Nicole was like, that should be real merch. And we were like, okay.
So I designed. My pitch was, hello, my name is.
And then the name would be Supped because that's the one I got superintendent. I got it wrong.
It was episode 465. You're kidding yourself.
Supped. so, Hello, My Name is Supt is now available as a mug and a koozie.
And I have both right here with me. Hello, my name is Supt with my terrible handwriting.
That's Georgia's script. My actual scrawl.
Truly her design. So then I also designed some merch.
And essentially, people were saying that after the election, my me quoting my dad, who said we just have to sally forth was people were really liking that online. So Nicole suggested we make shirts of it.
And she's like, what do you want the shirt to look like? And so I picked up a tiny legal pad, and just very quickly sketched it and said, what if it was something like this, just like a little cartoon head of my dad saying that. And then she was like, sounds good.
What if we just do it exactly the way you wrote it? So in the same vein and in the same spirit of George's merch, we have t-shirts that are my hand-drawn picture of my dad, which literally looks exactly like him. It does.
It totally does. Saying we're gonna sally forth.
Yeah. That's a perfect shirt.
That's pretty great. I feel like for us and merch.
Yeah. This is where we want to be.
Yeah. Like this is it strikes a good balance.
I think. I think so.
This is your summer merch guys. Bring this to the beach.
I don't know. I mean you could.
Do you want it on a towel? Do you go to the beach? Oh my name is supped on a towel. That's a great idea.
I actually love that. Do you go to the beach? Do you go? Do you like sand in your toes and in your car and in everywhere? Everywhere? Everywhere.
Purse. People are like, we do.
Yeah, people do. All summer long.
Should we do the rest of the Exactly Right updates while we're here? Sure, we should.

We have a network, and it's called the Exactly Right Podcast Network.

And here are some of the updates.

Well, this is a big one.

MFM Animated is brand new.

Nick Terry brings us the story of Peachy, the bitter little bird.

It's my favorite.

I say that every fucking time.

It's my favorite.

Yeah.

This one is beautiful.

It has so many.

I get Peachy pulls a switchblade on me. Yeah's great i'm honored no spoilers but george is physically threatened by a small bird honored to be physically threatened by peachy so you can go find it on youtube right now it's at youtube.com slash exactly right media and there are also 70 other episodes of mfm animated so if if you like this one, you might like the other ones too.

Yes, please follow us on YouTube.

It's very helpful.

And while you're there on YouTube,

we've also got full episodes of Buried Bones,

This Podcast Will Kill You,

and the little podcast called My Favorite Murder.

There's tons of videos, guys.

We're making them for you.

Please go check that out.

YouTube.com slash ExactlyRightMedia.

Thank you.

The end.

Is your AI built for everyone? you, please go check that out. YouTube.com with AI agents at IBM.com.
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Drew and Sue and M&M's minis and baking the surprise birthday cake for Lou and Sue forgetting that her oven doesn't really work. And Drew remembering that they don't have flour.
And Lou getting home early from work, which he never does. And Drew and Sue using the rest of the tubes of M&M's minis as party poppers instead.
I think this is one of those moments where people say, it's the thought that counts. M&M's.
It's more fun together.

All right. So it's summer.
We need some mental health time off. And so Karen is going to tell you a story this episode.
Yeah, we're going to do some solo episodes. Get our homework done and go on vacation.
I have a story for you that the book that was written about this story, I have recommended on this show so many times. It was one of those things where I was like, well, I just read the one book and I like the one book.
I did a similar thing with The Man from the Train, which I love so much. But I also did this with Casey Sepp's book, Furious Hours, Murder, Fraud, and the Last Trial of Harper Lee.
So today I'm going to tell you about that, the case behind that book. So it starts off in the late 70s in the small town of Alexander City, Alabama, and a local literary icon has just moved to town.
It's none other than an Alabama native and world-famous author of To Kill a Mockingbird, Harper Lee. At this point, Lee has won the 1961 Pulitzer for that book, which quickly became an American classic.
And Harper Lee became a household name. But instead of embracing that celebrity, she became even more private and she bucked the literary world's expectations.
She didn't capitalize off the immense success of her book and immediately cranked out a second novel. She just kind of like receded.
So basically now 20 years have passed since To Kill a Mockingbird's publication. And Harper Lee has never indicated that she's doing anything else until now.
Because Lee has come to Alexander City on a mission. She's setting up interviews throughout town and scribbling down notes all about a string of suspicious deaths and a particularly sensational murder trial that took place there in Alexander City.
Harper Lee has been transfixed by this case. She tells her friends it might be the story that pulls her out of her hiatus.
She's even come up with a title for the book that she plans to write about it. It's called The Reverend.
This is the story of Reverend Willie Maxwell, a black Alabama preacher whose family members keep dying under mysterious circumstances. I totally downloaded the audio book and then didn't listen to it.
So this is good for me. This is a vacation listen.
Exactly. We build and build on these recommendations.
Right. So, of course, Casey Sepp's Furious Hours, the book all about this case, is the main source.
Please order it from your local independent bookstore. Hey, or get it from the library, everyone.
Sure. Check it out.
And the rest of the sources are in our show notes if you want to see what else. Are you quoting the poster in the library that says, check it out? And it has like the stack of books.
Were you doing that on purpose or that just happened? It probably came out of my childhood memory because it's like a stack of books. Is there a checkmark anywhere on there? Yeah, I think at the top, but it's like because you check out books, it's like a winky thing.
Yeah. And I think a book is flying open.
A winky thing. Just a little winky thing.
Hey, librarians, if you have a good check it out poster at your library, will you send us a picture of it? Oh my gosh. Post your photos of check it out and tag us.
And if you think you have the oldest check it out poster, like the most vintage, please let us see it. Yes.
Please let us have our childhood memories come back to us. Okay,

nice one. Side content.
Okay, so we begin in the summer of 1970, seven years before Harper Lee

arrives in Alexander City. It is the 3rd of August, and the body of Mary Lou Maxwell,

a woman in her early 40s, has just been found in her car on the side of a rural two-lane road

called Highway 22, and that's just outside of Alexander City. Mary Lou's husband of 20 years is a man named Willie Maxwell, a sharply dressed, captivating man in his mid-40s who's often described as being elegant.
He's also a reverend. Willie preaches at various churches and revivals throughout the area, and author Casey Sepp writes in Furious Hours that, quote, There wouldn't be anybody nicer to you conversation-wise.
People said of him, you'd think that man came from heaven. He was so smooth.
Oh. So when Mary Lou is found dead, the Reverend's reputation takes a huge hit, and for good reason.
Her death is as suspicious as Willie's behavior. So for example, the night Mary Lou is found dead, Willie calls the police and claims that he's worried she might have been in an accident.
He then directs the police straight to her car broken down on the side of Highway 22. So not just a theory.
Yeah. When the police arrive, it's obvious that Mary Lou was not in a car accident.

Her vehicle shows no signs of damage.

The surrounding trees are untouched, and it looks like the car. Yeah.
When the police arrive, it's obvious that Mary Lou was not in a car accident. Her vehicle shows no signs of damage.

The surrounding trees are untouched, and it looks like the car has simply pulled off the highway and been parked by the side of the road.

But Mary Lou's body has clearly been brutally attacked and strangled.

There's blood everywhere, including on the outside of the car, which is hard to explain in a supposed crash.

Plus, rope is found on the ground nearby, which may have been used as the murder weapon. It then comes to light that things were tense between Willie and Mary Lou.
He'd been cheating on her with lots of different women. And at the time of her death, the Maxwells were in tens of thousands of dollars of debt.
Then investigators get bombshell information from the couple's neighbor. Her name is Dorcas Anderson.
She's in her late 20s. So Dorcas tells police around 10 p.m.
on August 3rd, Mary Lou had stopped by in a panic saying she just received a call that Willie was involved in a bad car accident coming home from a preaching gig and that he'd crashed somewhere off of Highway 22. So Mary Lou says to Dorcas, I'm on my way to go get him.
But suspiciously, about an hour after this, Willie comes home in a car with no visible damage. Mary Lou is not with him.
And Mary Lou never comes back. So all that looks bad for Willie, but it gets even worse when he immediately tries to cash in on several of the life insurance policies that he had taken out on her.
At that time, it was very easy to take out life insurance policies. All you needed was a name, a birthday, a social security number, and a talent for forgery if you're doing it behind someone's back.
They had machines, like cigarette machines for life insurance at the airport back then. Like you just put a quarter in.
The worst feeling. Also, what a brilliant person to think of those machines where it's like, you know, where you get real anxious about life and death.
Horrible. Okay.
So most of these policies were very cheap for Willie to file, yet they promised to pay out thousands of dollars in the event of Mary Lou's death. And some had been taken out on her right before the day she died.
So before long, Willie Maxwell is charged in his wife's murder. He hires a white attorney named Tom Ratney to defend him.
Despite the overwhelming circumstantial evidence against Willie, he winds up being acquitted after the prosecution's key witness, who is Dorcas Anderson, changes her testimony. Suddenly, Dorcas claims she can no longer remember what happened the night that Mary Lou was killed.
So now, even though the people of Alexander City are deeply suspicious of him, Willie Maxwell walks away a free man. And with Tom Radney's help, he also becomes a rich man because he is able to cash in on his dead wife's insurance policies.
the insurers Oh, wow. It's unclear exactly how much Willie makes off these policies, but we do know that he gets a handful of checks that add up to thousands of dollars.
And then he splits the money 50-50 with his attorney. So then, like a twist from a soap opera, Dorcas Anderson's husband dies and she becomes the next Mrs.
Willie Maxwell. Okay.
See where this is going. Not great.
So even after the mysterious death of his wife and the suspicion he's involved, Willie Maxwell somehow manages to keep on preaching. But he has to do it out of town where the congregants are not aware of the story.
Then in February of 1972, about a year and a half after Mary Lou's death, Willie's 52-year-old brother John is found dead on the side of the road about 10 miles outside of Alexander City. And according to Casey Sepp, John's cause of death is officially listed as a heart attack due to overconsumption of alcohol.
But when it comes to light that Willie has taken out life insurance policies on his brother as well, locals begin to theorize that Willie forced his brother John to drink a lethal amount of alcohol and then left him for dead. Oh my God.
That's, how do you, yeah, it would be so long and like horrible. So the problem is that police can never prove that Willie Maxwell is involved.
They simply don't have the evidence, which is something that the reverend's attorney hammers home when his client is taken in for questioning. All good things most of the time.
If people were like fighting for people where it's like, hey, if you don't have evidence. No, but it's like, but there is evidence.
Right. Just not.
Yeah. So Willie is never charged with any wrongdoing.
And because of that, the insurance companies have no choice but to, again, pay him out. And they are not happy about it.
You don't want the insurance companies mad at you. I just, you can't take insurance out for whomever you want.
It just feels weird. It was the 70s.
Early 70s? Man, might as well have been the 1720s. I don't know what I'm talking about.
I was only two.

Okay, so then a few months later in September of 1972. Yeah, man, might as well have been the 1720s.
I don't know what I'm talking about. I was only two.

Okay, so then a few months later in September of 1972, off a highway called Route 9, the new Mrs. Reverend Willie Maxwell, Dorcas Anderson, is found dead in her car.
Oh, dear. in an eerily similar way to how Mary Lou Maxwell was found.

Dorcas is only 29 years old at the time,

and by all accounts, she was a very healthy woman.

Her autopsy notes bruises on her shoulders and elbows, as well as a cut above one of her eyes and twigs and leaves stuck in her shoes, which could point to some sort of violence or struggle, but her death is deemed a natural one. So even though Dorcas and the Reverend had only been married for about a

year, Willie had taken out about 20 life insurance policies on his new wife, all of which were almost

certainly done behind her back. Yeah.
Okay. He's just 20 gangbusters here.
So Dorcas's loved ones

are certain that the Reverend is responsible for her death, but because it's not deemed a homicide

and with the case against Willie being entirely circumstantial, no charges are ever filed. So for a few years, things are quiet.
The reverend winds up marrying for a third time, and this time to a woman named Ophelia. But little more than three years after Dorcas' death, in February of 1976, Willie's 22-year-old nephew, James Hicks, is found dead in his car off of Route 9, the same highway where Dorcas was found.
Authorities to this day have never determined James's cause of death. His car and the area around it don't have any signs of damage, and an autopsy will show that James only has a tiny bit of alcohol and caffeine in his system.
He has a few small cuts on his arms, legs, and chest, and one on the inside of his mouth, but they aren't the types of injuries that would kill someone. James's widow, Mary, tells investigators she is certain Willie Maxwell is responsible.
She even claims that his new wife, Ophelia, had been calling trying to get James's social security number before he died. Come on.
So police track down the two local men who tell them about their very damning interactions with the Reverend. One claims Willie tried to recruit him into committing a murder.
The other claims that Willie admitted to killing people with pills, containing some sort of poison that he would dissolve into whiskey. So the police collect all that information about Willie Maxwell's activities, but they don't arrest him, probably because they would need harder evidence than just hearsay, and they know this lawyer is going to be like waiting right there.
But until then, increasingly horrified locals fear that Willie Maxwell is going to keep on getting away with murder. And then one year later, in mid-1977, Willie's 16-year-old stepdaughter, Shirley Ann Ellington, Ophelia's child, is found along a nearby highway near Willie's car.
At some point, the evidence is that everyone you freaking know dies. Yes.
That's the evidence. Your immediate family keeps being killed.
Yeah. But unlike the other suspicious deaths, Shirley Ann is not discovered inside the car.
She's actually been crushed underneath it. So the police think this scene is staged because it's supposed to look like Shirley Ann died in a terrible accident while changing a tire.
But none of the tires on the car are flat and Shirley Ann's hands are very clean while the tools she would have been using are very dirty. that's the kind of stuff that's insulting where it's like you're not you're not you're not you're not you're not you're not you're not you're not you're not you're not you're not you're not

you're not

you're not

you're not

you're not

you're not

you're not

you're not

you're not

you're not

you're not

you're not

you're not

you're not of the tires on the car are flat and shirley ann's hands are very clean while the tools she would have been using are very dirty that that's the kind of stuff it's insulting where it's like

you're not gonna right even stage this with any energy you're just gonna put all the things

together and yeah like it'll work you don't even yeah because you know you can get away with it

yeah on top of that shirley is found about a mile from her house it wouldn't make sense that she

wouldn't just walk home instead of attempting to change a car tire totally so this is now the fifth

Thank you. Shirley is found about a mile from her house, it wouldn't make sense that she wouldn't just walk home instead of attempting to change a car tire.
So this is now the fifth suspicious death of someone connected to and actively insured by Reverend Willie Maxwell. By this point, the Reverend has collected around $90,000 from insurers.
Would you like to guess how much money that is. This is 1977.
And it's how much? 90. It's accrued.
It's $90,000 accrued from 1972 to 1970. In today's money, I'm going to guess that is 210? What? 750,000.
Almost a million dollars. Wow.
Yeah. Okay, that's way off.
I know. When I looked at that number, I was like, whoa, but it's the 70s, which I want to tell myself was 20 years ago.
It was not one. So at this point, the Reverend's reputation is fully in the gutter.
He is now basically, his name is like he's the local boogeyman. Everyone who knows about him can't stop talking about how he is just actively getting away with murder scot-free.
Many people see him as a criminal, working the system in such a way that he's able to evade the consequences for murder, and he's making money. Others need a better explanation, so they start blaming voodoo and hoodoo.
There's some overlap, but they are essentially different things. In popular culture, they have been conflated for years because it's from back in the 70s.
These two terms are used interchangeably in most of the reporting that Marin found. But it is worth noting that these have been extremely misrepresented in popular culture for a long time.
Voodoo is a formal religion. It blends traditional West African religious practices with Catholicism, whereas hoodoo is the African-American tradition

of folk magic and medicine strongly associated with the South. So we don't know if willy practices either hoodoo or voodoo, but as author Casey Sepp explains in Furious Hours, historically, it wouldn't have been that unusual for a Black Christian preacher in the rural South to be echoing elements of voodoo in his ministry yeah in these same rural areas folk medicine associated with hoodoo like herbal remedies and poultices often filled in critical health care gaps for both black and white clientele so by the 1970s voodoo and hoodoo have been derided and condemned by racist whites for so long the popular culture comes to misunderstand them as just creepy and nefarious all that trickles down to the people in willie maxwell's world so they start making all kinds of wild claims about the reverend having supernatural powers one rumor claimed that he could turn into a black cat at will they're just trying to explain how somebody could be getting

away with this and just like basically kind of scamming the justice system. But ultimately, it's because the insurance policies give him money to pay for a lawyer that's fighting for him.
It's like that's how the rich always never go to jail. Totally.
I'll tell you a thing or two about it. So in June of 1977, Willie Maxwell makes the bold choice of attending his stepdaughter Shirley Ann Ellington's funeral.
About 300 people attend this ceremony. One of the mourners is Shirley Ann's 36-year-old uncle, a man named Robert Burns.
Robert Burns is known as a very decent man. He's a loving dad.
He is a veteran from the Vietnam War. He's very hardworking, long haul trucker, a very loyal husband to his wife of eight years, Vera.
But Robert is also very close with his niece, Shirley Ann. So during this funeral, he stuns everyone in attendance by pulling out a gun and in front of hundreds of witnesses, shooting 52-year-old Reverend Willie Maxwell in the head, killing him.
What? At the funeral. Oh, man.
I wasn't expecting that. Right? Wow.
It's a real turn midpoint. Yeah.
Oh, my God. So the reverend's buried one week later.
Casey Sepp reports, quote, his funeral was one of the most well attended in this part of Alabama. What people say about why they went is to make sure that he was really dead.
Wow. So they could see him in the casket and verify that he was actually dead because they didn't think he could be killed.
Holy shit. Yeah.
I mean, that's just, wow. Imagine your beloved niece and you just know who did it and you know he's going to get away with it.
And you saw it coming. Yeah.
And he did it to those other women where it's like Dorcas was just a witness and suddenly she's probably got love bombed and pulled in. Yeah.
Yeah. Horrible.
So now in death, Reverend Willie Maxwell's notoriety has expanded far beyond Alabama, attracting reporters from all over the country. And this is when Harper Lee reads about the Reverend's murder in the newspaper and, of course, immediately is like, what is going on? I have to know more.
So it's a well-established fact that Harper Lee is a true crime fanatic. Casey Sepp mentions a quote Lee once gave about the infamous axe murderer Lizzie Borden, where she jokingly empathizes with her, saying, quote, I know exactly why she did it.
Anyone burdened with long petticoats and having had mutton soup for breakfast on a day like that was bound to have murdered somebody before sundown. Yikes.
That's our girl. That's our Harper Lee.
She's just like. Got it.
Salty. She's a little salty.
She's a salty lady, played by Sandra Bullock in the movie, the Truman Capote movie.

Oh, right. Interesting.

So we know Harper Lee is deeply interested in the themes that lie at the heart of the Reverend story. Things like southerness, race, vigilantism, and the American justice system.
All those themes that ran through To Kill a Mockingbird.

So it's not too surprising that she decides to move down to the Alexander City area so that she can immerse herself in the reverend's world. While living there, Lee interviews several people close to the case.
She even develops a friendship with Willie's longtime attorney, Tom Radney, who, in another surprising turn in this saga, winds up defending Robert Burns after he's charged with the Reverend's murder. Oh man, this guy's just like, I'll take anyone.
Well, I think it's like, is he the only lawyer for a thousand miles? Maybe. Is it that feeling? He's the only one to take black clients, maybe.
Maybe. Could it be that he was like, I was a part of this and this horrible thing happened and now I need to be a part of this? Yeah, like atonement kind of? Yeah, maybe.
Balance the scales. Although his client is the one that got murdered.
Right. It's an interesting turn.
Yeah. So Tom Radney exchanges extensive notes with Harper Lee, likely with the hopes that she'll write another bestseller that highlights him as a particularly savvy lawyer.
They also have some fun together. Years later, Tom Radney's wife, Madeline, will describe Harper Lee this way.
She'll say, quote, I didn't spend nearly as much time with her as the men did. Harper Lee smoked and drank, and she had several four-letter words she contribute to any conversation.
I love that. And these are like Southern women who like, we will go out on the on the porch while you men talk and happily, I guess.
You stay there too.

Sorry, mid-quote. But she had this really cute wit about her.
She was smart, and I enjoyed just listening to her, just sitting back and listening to the conversation. So she liked it.
She was a fan. So when Robert Byrne's trial kicks off in September of 77, he pleads not guilty by reason of insanity.

So Tom Radney is now tasked with one of the most difficult jobs an attorney can have.

He not only has to prove Robert's insanity at the time of the reverend's death, which is very hard to do in court, but he also has to defend a client who killed his victim in front of 300 witnesses. Right.
Like that's not in question. Right.
So there's no denying that part. But Radney is, of course, a very good lawyer, even though PTSD isn't something most people understood at the time, like in the 70s.
He relates Robert Burns' temporary insanity in the courtroom to the trauma he endured while serving in Vietnam. At the same time, Rodney plays on the public's anxieties around the power of voodoo, and he uses it to paint the reverend as basically Robert's complete opposite.
As Casey Sepp puts it, Rodney establishes Willie Maxwell as, quote, the witchiest witch doctor and the voodooiest voodoo priest the South has ever known, a man so mysteriously powerful that no force of law could touch him and so feared that no neighbor would look him in the eye. So reporting from this time seems to take Tom Radney's narrative here and run with it, with Willie Maxwell becoming known as, quote, the voodoo priest in some faraway newspapers.
Okay. So it's a bit hypocritical.
Yeah hypocritical to take a turn like that. It is.
But maybe it's like, hey, I was there in the front lines and got involved with this guy. I don't know.
Totally. So the trial lasts two days.
Robert Burns is acquitted of the reverence murder. Wow.
Because the jury ultimately accepts his insanity defense, the courtroom reportedly bursts into applause at the verdict. Yeah.
And that same year, the town of Alexander City names Tom Radney the man of the year. Wow.
Yep. And just so you get a full sense of Tom Radney, because this is like, we're just making comments on this kind of singular thing where it's like, he, of course, probably had 100 and was you know yeah whatever so everyone knows attorney tom radney went on to serve in the alabama state legislature and he was a vocal advocate for civil rights he passed in 2011 at age 79 after a long illness so he was the real deal in that way of like you said the only lawyer to represent black people at that time or whatever it was he was doing.

He kept doing it after all of this, which is good to know. And apparently Robert Burns is still alive and in his 80s.
No way. Yeah.
And he talked to Casey Sepp as she wrote her book, and he's been quoted by reporters a few times over the past decade. That's so interesting.
So with that, the story of Reverend Willie Maxwell comes to a close, but we're still not at the end of our story because the enduring mystery here involves Harper Lee, who despite all evidence suggesting that she was writing a book on this case, never publishes one. In fact, nothing she wrote in this era has ever surfaced, at least not publicly.
So while she was in Alexander City, Harper Lee conducted interviews, including with Robert Burns after his acquittal, which imagine what that must have been like. She took copious notes.
She even sent pages of writing to Tom Radney for him to review. And later, Harper Lee's sister Louise will claim that she read the entire manuscript of the book about this case.
Andise reportedly declared that book to be quote better than in cold blood so it was written yeah oh my god i mean would her sister lie probably not no because she'd want her sister to get the credit of like oh no she did it yeah and it was better than in cold blood which speaking of we know harper lee was a very skilled reporter and she proved this when she helped truman capote her childhood friend from in roville alabama report on the death of the clutter family in 1950s kansas the subject of the book in cold blood and that book is a hugely important piece of american literature that helped legitimize true crime as a genre but we also know harper lee's feelings about it were very complicated mostly because of how close Truman Capote got with Right. ways in which she was trying to do something different.
She had real concerns about Capote's book, about journalistic ethics, the role of the reporter, and the way true crime writers can come to sympathize with their subjects. So Harper Lee once even wrote to Truman Capote's fact checker at The New Yorker, expressing her fears that while they were working on In Cold Blood, it was, in Harper Lee's words, quote, more novelistic than nonfiction.
She'd also written a letter to Gregory Peck, who played Atticus Finch in the movie version of To Kill a Mockingbird. And she said to him, quote, my agent wants pure gore and autopsies.
My publisher wants another bestseller. And I want a clear conscience in that I haven't defrauded the reader.
Wow. Yeah.

Chutzpah and what's the word I'm looking for?

Character?

Yep.

Yeah.

Good standards.

Yeah.

Like actually trying to stand for something.

Yeah.

Also, it makes it a little easier.

She'd already gone through something before where it's like probably as they went through

the in cold blood process, it was like, is this right or wrong?

This doesn't feel good, but I didn't say anything at the time. she's the researcher she doesn't get to tell the author what to do totally but then but she gets to make her own adjustments yeah okay so there's theories on why her book never saw the light of day that's one of them that she like the ethics of it some have also speculated she might have been hamstrung by the fear of having to follow up to kill a mockingbird, which, good Lord.

I mean, stay sexy and don't get murdered. How do we follow that up? We haven't and we don't.
Others think she may have had really bad writer's block or that her publishers didn't like the idea of a book that centered around the lives of black people. Right.
Ultimately, we don't know what happened to harper lee's writing about the reverend

willie maxwell case and she will never get a chance to show us or tell us herself in 2016 at the age of 89 harper lee passed away in her sleep someday someone could discover harper lee's work from alexander city yeah after all many thought that she'd never publish anything after to kill a Mockingbird, but then her book, Gossetta Watchman, was released shortly before her death. In the meantime, if you live in or near Alexander City, please go check the dusty corners of your grandparents' attics because in 2009, a local man bought an encyclopedia from a Salvation Army and he found a handwritten note from Harper Lee buried inside.
We don't know who the note was written to. It's dated June 11, 1978, and it says this, quote, You simply can't beat the people in Alexander City for their warmth, kindness, and hospitality.
If I fall flat on my face with this book, I won't be terribly

disappointed because of knowing that the time I spent with you was not time lost, but friends gained. This is not remotely goodbye because I'll be coming back until doomsday.
And that is the story of the alleged murders and murder of Willie Maxwell and the lingering mystery around Harper Lee's the reverend the reverend wow okay now i fucking know that story thank you what happened to the book the idea that she left a note in an encyclopedia for somebody to discover for 40 years later yeah is so badass of her she knew that feeling yeah she's like i need to write a love letter to, but if I do it officially, they'll try to give me something and make it about me. Right.
And I just want the actual people to know. Yeah.
So here. Oh, God.
So good. So good.
And yeah. She wants a reader to know.
Yeah. And they found treasure.
Yeah. Everyone's in your attics and go buy things at garage sales.
And if you live inlexander city will you please send us any of your theorized harper lee yeah treasure it's like i found this manuscript in my grandma's nightstand that was an incredible great job for a solo it had everything you'd want and more that's how we do these solo episodes we provide provide provide and the hell out. Because we fucking sometimes need a moment.
Do you understand this? I don't understand why it's been nine and a half years. It's not stopped podcasting.
It's a lot. A lot of podcasting.
We love it. We're not complaining.
We do love it. We're so grateful.
But man, it's nice to just have like two weeks, not worry about stuff. You know, you do it from your job.
Right? So we're doing it from our job. I mean, look, people, we just took a week off.
I mean, we do this sometimes. Yeah.
But definitely, any complaints, please write to... Can you bleep that? My real email address.
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Goodbye. Okay, well this is a special occasion because we're starting to do this thing.
We've been doing our hoorays where everybody writes them in on the show. But now, today, we're doing it in the car.
We're doing the honking hoorays. That's right.
So, this is presented by Hyundai. We really appreciate you bringing us here and giving us this lush car to sit in.
The gorgeous Ioniq 5. Here we go.
I drive this. This is actually Karen's car.
Do you want to go first? Sure. Okay.
My hooray is that today

is my one year sober anniversary. Wow.
It's been pretty hard given the state of things, but facing it sober means I can do the work that needs to be done. Wow.
That's from Instagram from at Avon Gale. Avon Gale's doing it even in the midst of full global meltdown.
That's right. That's important work.
That's true. It's a hard time to be doing it, but you're doing it.
Good job. Good work.
So the subject line of this email is hooray, I'm a PI. Okay.
Okay. It says my hooray is that I just completed my associate's degree in biology and got a job as a private investigator.
Those are different. That's so cool though.
It is very, this is a person who's living the full range of life. Multifaceted.
I've been listening since I was 14. I'm now 21.
What? How? Why? Is that math right? And working, it's like liar. And working on my bachelor's degree in forensic science.
Oh my God. Thank you for helping me find my future career, hopefully working in DNA testing.
There was no name signed on this, but Molly, our producer Molly,

has a theory that they left their name off

because they're a PI.

Ooh, because they're smart.

That is so badass.

Yeah, amazing job.

Good job.

Very cool.

Okay.

This is an email.

It says,

Tonight I'm sitting crisscross applesauce

on the floor of my new home,

folding laundry well,

my future husband,

and the love of my life is putting our baby girl to sleep two different people no questions sorry sorry so many people have thanked you over the years for your kindness and your advocacy and your willingness to talk about mental health so i am just another one in the bunch but it's a large part because of you and because of this community that i made it here and that my children are here. Hooray.
Melanie, heart emoji. And then it says, P.S., my husband suggested naming our next child, son, after his father, Gary.
Baby Gary. Baby Gary.
It says, I simply cannot. LOL.
I think if you name your child Gary, we have merch for you. We do.
There is merch waiting for you. If you send us the birth certificate and proof.
Yes. That you named your child Gary.
We need pictures of the face. Yeah.
We need pictures of the feet. And the birth.
Okay. This email, the subject line is hooray, a dog, a dude, an England.
And it says, hiya, after 33 years of being a hopeless non-romantic, last year against all odds, I somehow met and fell for a Dude, and England. And it says, Wow.
Wow. So naturally, after only a few months of dating, he told me he decided to move back to the UK at the end of the school year.

Well, cut to the hooray.

I packed up most of my life and moved to England this past New Year's Eve.

Wow.

Well, it turns out that teaching is brutally hard on both sides of the Atlantic, I'm loving building a little British life with this kind and unexpected man. But the real hooray, I'm writing this from the airport on my way back to the States to reunite with my dog, my best friend of nearly nine years, to finally bring him back across the pond with me.
You'd not believe the hoops required to move a dog to the UK. But I'm endlessly grateful to my wonderful sister for taking care of my Henry while I figured it all out, stay sexy, and choose adventure over pragmatism every now and then, Katie.
I love that. I want to have that British life.
I know. Build that British life, fill it with scones and defundlement okay this is from her email hi my mfm queens my hooray is that march marked four years being a registered nurse wow before my nursing career i was a teacher for four years and slowly fell into a deep depression in 2018 i made the decision to go back to school for nursing and I haven't looked back since.
Now I have four years in as an RN, and I'm happier than ever. It's never too late to change your life around.
Hooray, Christina. Yes, Christina.
Yeah. That's so true.
Yeah. Never too late.
Also, if she just becomes a stand-up comedian now, she's done every job in my family. Oh, yeah.
Oh, and firemen. Right.
Okay. This is a combo because it's a comment on episode 479, No Bangs.
They also fold it. Hooray in here.
It's from Instagram, and it says, Going through a really hard phase of life, but the joy from my kids is getting me through it. I got them new PJs the other day, and my two-year-old goes, I could have cried so hooray for dinosaurs and amazing little humans and that's at dshively07 that's so sweet that's so sweet I know imagine having little children that bring you joy what's that like what are we talking about is that it that's it wow we've done it you, Hyundai, and thank you, listeners, for sending in your hoorays.
Stay sexy. And don't get murdered.
Goodbye. Elvis, do you want a cookie? This has been an Exactly Right production.
Our senior producers are Alejandra Keck and Molly Smith. Our editor is Aristotle Acevedo.

This episode was mixed by Liana Squalachi.

Our researchers are Maren McGlashan and Allie Elkin.

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Goodbye. New favorite audiobook, The Cerulean Empress, Scoundrel's Inferno.
And Florian, the reckless yet charming scoundrel from said audiobook. And his packs glistened in the moonlight.
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Uh, Kevin, I can't hear. Yellow, we're keeping it PG-13.
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