Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 45: Funky Diva

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Hello!

And welcome to Rewind with Karen and Georgia.

It is Wednesday, and that means it's time to take you back to the not-so-distant past where things were shaping up to be the nightmare that it is now.

That's right.

But keeping it positive, this is the show where we recap our old episodes with all new commentary, updates, and insights.

That's right.

And today we are going to recap episode 45, which we named Funky Diva.

Oh my God.

That makes me so happy that this little shop I worked in on Melrose at 18 is the name of an episode.

So classic.

So this episode came out on December 1st, 2016.

Let's listen to the intro of episode 45.

You go first.

Welcome to my favorite murder, the podcast that asked the question:

What?

Huh?

Who put this on?

Huh?

This is not appropriate.

No, murder?

What murder?

How dare you?

What is wrong with you, girls?

How dare you like this?

My sensibilities are offended.

I'm offended in my sensibility area.

I'm offended in the face.

I'm offended religiously.

In my mouth.

Morally.

In your mouth.

Your nose and throat.

Spiritually.

Your nose and throat.

In the eyes.

Veins.

Spinal fluid, heart, not the spine, just the spinal fluid, spleen.

This is so, this is the anatomy podcast.

Yes, we can name over 10 things in your body.

Congratulations to us.

Yay!

That's Georgia.

That's Karen.

And we're here to talk to you about all of our favorite things we like the most, which is true crime.

Yeah.

Welcome.

If you don't like it, later days.

This is the wrong PCAST for you, bro.

I stole that from Ben, so I don't want to take credit for that.

This is the wrong PCAST pie for you, friend.

Yeah, get another PCAST.

It's funny that, isn't it funny, Karen?

If you reflect, I was peeing today

as you do, and I was reflecting as I do.

As you're forced to.

Right.

And I was thinking about how funny it is that this like thing that I've been upset, we've been obsessed with and secretly in love with and certain like is our kind of going to be our career.

It's pretty nice to think that little Karen was right about at least one thing.

That's a pretty good feeling.

Yeah, because she fucked up a ton of stuff.

I just keep accidentally falling into like not fucking up.

Yeah, you know, that's nice.

Yeah.

Is that you mean in later life?

Yeah.

Like, we got our fucked up stuff out of the way early.

Yeah.

Which is kind of, I think, what you're supposed to do.

Yeah, we're lucky because, like, 20, well,

by 25, I was like, I'm good yeah

yeah by 27 i was like well i didn't die so i'm gonna stop doing all those things now yeah there's no there's no going down from from being rehab at 14.

i still love that i like to think of you in a big pair of orange junko jeans just being like hey dave a clove or whatever just like so different oh sorry

That's uh, that's little 14-year-old Georgia.

And she appears out of a puff of smoke in fucking orange jinko.

Is it jinko?

I thought it was, I don't know.

I'm sure it's different everywhere.

I'm too old to even really know.

It's not my reference.

Thank God.

I never wore those.

I did wear vinyl pants to raves.

Did you?

Weren't they hot?

Uh-huh.

Tight?

Never washed them.

Grew up.

I know.

Was there some benefit to not washing them?

Like, were they easier to put on next?

I just don't know how one would wash vinyl or leather pants.

Oh, yeah, you just have to throw them away.

Yeah.

And start over totally.

Where do you get vinyl pants?

There is this, you remember when Melrose Avenue was like the fucking coolest place in the world?

Yeah, I do, actually.

That was like our,

we would save up money throughout the year in Orange County and make a pilgrimage to fucking Melrose.

Yeah.

And my first job when I moved to LA like at six, at 17 was like on Melrose at like one of those clothing stores.

What's that?

Funky Diva?

Literally, it was called Funky Diva.

I'm, I'm positive I shopped at Funky Diva.

That you came in.

Tons Tons of chokers.

Yes.

Wouldn't that be amazing if right now we could see security camera footage of me and you having some kind of rude exchange at Funky Diva?

I don't have to be rude.

Because I'm rude.

That's all I was doing back then was rudeness, rudeness, rudeness.

Friends, foes, didn't matter.

I love it.

It was a lot of arched eyebrows and a lot of,

anyway.

Sorry.

Sorry.

Sorry.

What I'm enjoying these days is people on Twitter trying to show that they mean, I'm sorry, the way you say it.

They're trying to do it in the writing.

So sometimes it's all caps, I'm and then sorry.

Sometimes it's reversed.

Like, how do you actually put that into?

I would do all caps, I'm.

But the some girls, did you see that on Instagram?

I put up a photo of some girl who wrote like, there was like a musical bar and it had the like, I'm, and it was like.

how one would play it.

You could sing it.

Yeah.

And she had the like,

she must have been a musician.

I wish I could, but yeah.

yeah that's genius

do you ever like do you get like self-conscious about the things you say here that become a thing like that where you're like i would say that anyways but now it sounds like i'm pandering yes now well now it sounds like you're trying to make some kind of an infographic for totally here's your favorite like someone at the live show was text afterwards like not texted but like put on like i was really hoping you'd call someone a sweet baby angel i'm like well i don't i didn't call anyone that because i don't want to sound like

right guys.

Yes.

You don't.

Yeah.

It's not like you're, uh, that's your

tag for tagline.

Catch phrase.

Tag catch line phrase.

You're not going to tag anybody with that phrase.

My problem is

I cannot believe, I don't, I cannot believe that I still say literally so much.

It is

literally the worst habit of all time.

I say it when I'm like kind of trying to explain something to you and I'm really like, really trying to convey something.

I'll say literally like seven times.

It's awful.

I haven't noticed it.

I don't pay attention to anyone but myself.

So I wouldn't know.

Good plan.

Good plan.

You know what I mean?

I guess same here.

Yeah.

Nobody cares.

Yeah.

Nobody gives a shit.

Nobody gives a shit about you but yourself and your cats.

It's nice to be.

We, by the way, we had such an incredible time in Chicago.

We, I mean, it was nuts.

Oh, we, um, I, I'm speaking for both of us now.

No, I am speaking for the royalty.

Horrible.

Yeah.

Georgia did not enjoy yourself.

We, the Karen, uh,

it was so crazy to walk out.

As I explained to my sister and you and our whole, all of our people afterwards, I said, I anticipated

a certain amount of applause and we got like 15 times more than what I anticipated.

I've seen so many, like a couple of friends have texted me and I've seen a couple of tweets and things like that they got so emotional when they heard the applause of us.

Yeah, people keep saying that.

What a bunch of nice people.

I know.

Thank you for clapping.

I know.

And like, it just is neat.

It's so neat.

It's really neat.

I think we're a little overwhelmed at how neat it is.

At how neat everything is.

And we're trying to process it.

Yeah.

And.

And but we're just happy.

It's so flattering and we're happy and we want to thank each and every one of you, which I think we did after the show.

We stood there and thanked you.

We fucking

thanked you all to your face.

I hugged so many people.

And thank the Lord, nobody was weird.

Nobody.

Nobody.

Nobody.

We were really waiting for like somebody with some scissors up their sleeve.

For sure.

And everybody did great.

My mom sat.

to the side in a chair with a beer and just watched.

It was like an hour and a half.

It was so long.

And she watched the entire thing.

So did my sister and Adrian and Audrey.

After a little while, Audrey came over and just started taking pictures of us taking pictures with people because she was so excited.

Everybody was thrilled about it.

But we did want to thank Tyler Green and Jonathan Pitts are the two people who put the Chicago Podcast Festival together and they made it happen for us and for everybody who is there.

And we want to thank them so much because they did an amazing job.

Yeah, it was so smooth and easy and great.

And there was soda in the green room.

And there was a green room and candy.

Yeah, we had a whole, we had a bag of treats.

Yeah.

That's awesome.

Do you know how much I fucking love like that?

What do they call them when you leave a place and they give you a bag?

An exit bag.

Whatever.

I fucking know what it's called.

I don't know.

It sounded right.

Oh, like a swag bag.

Swag bag.

Yeah.

I will go to a fucking party just for the swag bag.

Sure.

Even if I could buy it myself.

I will fucking go.

Like, you know, buy the show.

Oh, I just want to like not.

Yeah, I like presents.

We also want to thank the staff of the, I never pronounce it right, but the Anthonyum Theater, which is the 105 year old theater where we did our show all those people were

and that staff had to wait until we said hi to every single person yeah practically um and so thank you guys so much for your patience and for being there for us and um i actually i have a business card of the the man who really arranged that lobby situation yeah and i meant to bring it to say his name specifically the dude who stood there and took every photograph he like would he was like hand me your camera they were so great they were so nice and uh the whole experience was just like pretty i didn't really look at you that much because i didn't want to have like we weren't having that much personal experience yeah because i didn't want to like either burst into tears yeah you can't look at me a lot in like emotional settings i feel like no you don't want to get emotional i i need to shut down in very specific ways and i can't you know me i can't open it back up or it'll be tears tears tears okay i guess yeah god we're so we're so different we're like opposite.

We're like the opposite.

So we're doing the Riot LA show

on Saturday, January 21st.

Because that's the one at the Orpheum, right?

I think so, yeah.

So it's another big old-fashioned theater.

Yeah.

Please help fill it out so we don't feel stupid.

Yeah, we don't want to feel stupid in our own city.

Oh my God.

Like around people that we know.

Oh my God.

And we keep talking about like, oh, in Chicago, they did this and that.

Pat our back, pat our back.

And then we go to LA and it's like four people.

It's like your manager, my agent wouldn't go.

Who else would be there?

She's judging us in the crowd.

No one makes a giant Elvis fucking cut out face like they did in Chicago.

Oh, I forgot.

So a girl made.

Oh my God, I'm going to call her out because she was amazing.

She took a picture of Elvis.

She blew it up so it was bigger than a human head, like twice the size of a human head.

And then she had it in front of her face.

So when the lights came up and we were talking to people to get the hometown murder at the end,

I saw this thing that I thought a girl dressed up like a furry, like dressed up like Elvis.

It scared the shit out of me.

I was genuinely scared

of her.

But she, it turned out she was just holding it in front of her face.

Like, look, Elvis is here.

You can find the photos on Instagram.

We're my favorite murder, Instagram.

Her name's Alex Graves.

And what a fucking angel baby.

Like, thank you so much.

Like, that was so fucking cool.

It was super cool.

And I have photos of us with it.

And I have this photo from my hotel room of me and wear having it in front of my face.

It really does look like when you hold it up, it just looks like you're now a huge Siamese cat.

It's creepy, but in the best way because I'm obsessed with this cat.

Yeah.

Like he's sitting next to me right now.

And I also have Siamese pajama pants on right now.

Oh, you're in, you're living the life.

Oh, I'm at M and D.

You're living that life.

I have a parasite in my brain that just controls me and it's, and it's cat.

It's from cats.

Probably, right?

Sure.

That's real sad.

Are you going to bring that cat head to New York so then you so Elvis can be there too?

It doesn't, it didn't fit in my bag.

Tell you something and I feel really shitty every day.

Super huge.

Did you have to leave stuff behind?

Okay.

I don't care.

Okay.

I know, but I know you don't, but I feel really bad.

So like, oh, oh, but it's kind of cute.

Okay.

So we took a photo of it in the, in the hotel, then we were packing to leave and tonight.

And then I was like, it doesn't fit.

What do we do?

And he was like, put it behind the couch in the hotel room.

So I slipped it behind the couch at the fucking Godfrey Hotel in one of the rooms.

Behind the couch is a fucking Elvis.

And it has this girl's info on it like not info info but like you know Instagram and shit on it so someone's gonna motherfucking find that that's hilarious you know what's interesting I had brought a dress with me to um chicago that I bought in a panic at Target for $20

didn't try it on I was like this is gonna be a look a dress look I'm doing it fine grabbed it

No, it wasn't black, actually.

It was like green and maroon and black, but it was kind of stripey and there's a lot going on.

When I got to Chicago and tried it on, it turned out it was empir waste.

Oh, God, no, what?

Which makes me look because I've been boobs, so it made me look like I was in my third trimester.

My sister's like, take it off.

Anorexic girls are the only people who look good in them.

And you shouldn't be anorexic.

Right.

So, so no one.

Nobody.

So that's why I went shopping and told that whole story.

If you want to hear smells, it's a fair story.

It's on the

end we both wore black dresses.

Are we going to just we're are we doing that from now on?

Those are our show uniforms.

Like the same dress or just black, any kind of black.

I think we should keep it like any kind.

Okay.

Don't you?

Yes, except that means I have to go shopping because I literally own like three black things because I dress like a fucking school girl grandma.

Well, then you have 10 days.

You have 10 days.

And then you love shopping.

Oh my God.

Shopping is amazing.

But I left that dress in our hotel room with a note that said you can have this if you want it.

I never returned it.

Oh, no, I'm tired.

Target?

Yeah, I returned shit all the time.

I'd ripped anytime I buy something, I rip all the tags off of me.

You do.

See, I have it.

I'm claustrophobic and can't go in a changing room.

So I just bring everything home and then return to it all.

I think I don't go in a changing room because I don't want to see my back in one of those mirrors.

I saw mine recently.

My butt, like it had the mirror behind me.

Like my mirror stops at like my, it's like my waist up.

Yeah.

Which is like the great area.

Sure.

It looks so hot from like behind and the waist up.

With your, with the back of your bra and everything.

Yeah.

It's like, oh, well, now because I'm got that like fat pinch because I refuse to believe I'm bigger than everyone has that.

That's human.

I don't need to see my fucking butt right then when you're in one of those high-tension dressing rooms yeah oh

so yeah I just want to pretend that that's not true I just like to think that there was a housekeeping housekeeping lady who was just like oh my god I got a dress a dress and I wrote on the note never been worn I hope she believed me

Anyhow, thanks, Chicago.

We really love you.

Yeah, Chicago.

Do we have any other housekeeping?

Housekeeping?

keeping.

Oh, my only thing is

I had started watching a show called, did you start called The Killing Season?

No, but I need, I need to watch it.

Okay, yesterday.

I haven't been hearing enough about it.

Okay.

I think we'll be the engine for that.

I think so.

Because

I started watching it yesterday.

I had heard a little bit.

And I, so it's a series about the Long Island serial killer.

And I'd started that book so long ago and said I was going to do an episode about it.

And this is one of the, like, the, the, the murder that, that I heard about beforehand is so fucking crazy and insane.

The girl who went to private, privately dance for that dude.

Yes.

Who like something happened?

Yes.

The thing that like kicked it off.

Amazing.

Like it should be solvable based on that murder.

Right.

Love it.

So this series is by the people, um, that two people, Joshua Zeman and Rachel Mills.

And they're the two people who did the documentary Cropsy that we recommended to everybody.

Yeah, that's super upsetting.

Well, this is an AE series.

AE is amazing.

I love Cropsy because it's not corny.

Like, there's so many documentaries that are like corny.

Right.

Cropsy is not.

No, no, it's just straight up scary.

Yeah.

Well, this series, it's called The Killing Season.

It's on AE.

And it's not an ad, by the way, in the middle.

Like, we're not talking.

This is real talking.

Yeah.

Now we have to say it's real talking corner.

So I started watching it yesterday and I ended up laying on my couch and watching six episodes straight through.

And by the time I got to the sixth episode, I didn't, I needed to leave my house and be around human beings that I knew I would be safe.

Oh my god, like that.

It was very upsetting, and I don't have that.

Like, nor it normally, I don't get that.

And I really did.

Like, I went to the movies with Alice and Agasty, and then I told her she started it today and texted me today and was like, I cannot stop watching the killing.

I shouldn't watch it.

I mean, I don't think she's going to want to watch it with me.

It's really heavy.

But the thing is that it starts with the Long Island Serial Killer and then it just expands like

it just keeps going.

Yeah, because there's all these things connected.

You have to see it.

I'm fucking watching the shit out of that.

Highly recommend if you haven't seen it.

I did the same thing yesterday, literally with

Search Party.

Oh, yes.

And now I'm like, I was like, I'm going to watch.

I watched five minutes of the first episode and I was like, I'm going to save this for Vince because it's really good.

And it's going to, and then I'm into episode like six now because I couldn't fucking, I couldn't stop.

Like I did my nails because I wanted to sit in front of the TV and I can't sit in front of the TV without doing something.

Right.

So I'm like, my nails are nice.

My fucking laundry was folded out here, which I never like.

It was.

I just folded laundry too.

Oh my God.

Yeah.

You got to do something.

I have been, I watched one episode of Search Party and then I had to leave my house.

I like, had to be somewhere.

Yeah.

And I knew if I started the second one, I would not leave.

Every character, John Early, is that yeah, he is so fucking perfect.

There's like four main characters, and they're just like the perfect, exact people of who they're supposed to be.

Yeah, and if you miss them, it was, did you get the feeling too, where when I saw the first episode, I got jealous that that's their like, oh, you're making this show already.

Like, I want this show.

I did you.

I was thinking that about you writing that.

I'm like, how stoked would you be if this was the show you were working on?

Yeah.

Yeah.

I want like a fucking, can I be someone's sister's friend's brother?

No.

No, you can't.

I want like a walk-on roll.

And I want you to write it.

It's okay.

Yeah, we'll come to them with a bunch of big ideas.

It's so good.

It's so good.

Watch Search Party.

Like, it's so good.

And I think it's all on demand, too.

So you can binge the shit out of it.

Yeah, you can.

It feels like everything's that.

It feels like

I would do what she's doing.

Right.

What's her Aaliyah?

Aaliyah Shakwa.

She is so.

I bet you I didn't pronounce that right.

Aalaya.

Somehow.

It's so maybe from Arrested Development.

Yeah.

She's the darlingest person I've ever seen.

She's such a good actress, too.

Yeah.

Oh, my God.

I'm so happy.

So that's like TV corner.

TV corner.

I think that's all I have.

Do we do murders?

Oh, Stephen, do you need to Steven check-in?

Stephen, check-in.

How are you, Stephen?

My sister had a great time in Chicago.

Yay.

Oh, nice.

And I did hang out with the cats.

Thank you.

When I go out of town, Stephen takes over the Elvis and Mimi Instagram and it's like, I kind of need to pay you extra for like that because it's so good.

Yeah.

I was just thinking where I was during the show.

And I'm just like sitting here petting Elvis.

As it should be.

Yeah.

No, it was perfect.

But my sister,

she met a really nice Murderino and her mom, who's also Murderino, and they got a picture with her and everything, which is really sweet.

I love it.

I think her name was Lee or Lee or Leah or something like that.

But she's very sweet.

And my sister, like I was telling you, I was like, my sister needs to listen to my favorite murderer because she was obsessed with Helter Skelter.

I got her Devil in the White City when she moved to Chicago.

So it was just like, this is,

this needs to happen.

She's got all the materials.

She has no excuses.

She's got to get into it.

No.

And we gave you it.

We called her Sister Ray Morris, gave you a shout out.

That's right.

That was very sweet.

Someone needs to get a giant Stephen Ray Morris.

cutout.

That's right.

That's the next one.

Oh my God.

No, that sounds like I would never want to see my face like that.

But it needs to be three times the size as the last you need to basically not be able to bring it in because they're like you can't someone make a macy's thanksgiving day parade balloon of stephen that would be perfect if you don't mind it would not be that big of a deal

we'll leave it behind a what the couch leave it in the basement of a uh the holiday inn

you just told everyone we're staying No, we're not staying in a holiday.

I know.

Not that we're going to care.

Okay.

here we nobody gives a we're not they know no we're not we're not and we told you that never did from the beginning we said it before and we're gonna say it again we're not like you guys know please you know

you have to know that that we know yes we know and we're not three hours later they're still doing that

oh here's me typing an email you guys start the podcast no you we've got to improv some more stop pissing karen off elvis is leaving he's like these bitches you pissed me off, then you pissed Elvis off.

Then it's over.

Mimi's fine, though.

Oh, yeah.

Then this people gave us like Elvis and Mimi toys.

And they're like, they look like, oh, God, I'm going to lose my mind.

Everyone's the best.

We got nice presents.

All right.

I love it.

They're so good and nice.

All these people.

I know it.

I think.

Oh, what?

Sorry.

Here's the last thing.

The girl.

who as she walked up, my sister and Adrian and Audrey like cried laughing when I told this story.

girl who walked up, like, hey, you guys, kind of all young and like, she was doing weird things with her shoulders.

So she's all kind of goofy.

And then when she got in to take the picture, she goes, you guys,

my, my dad killed his business partner and got away with it.

Bye, stay sexy.

She was just like.

this cute, like kind of sorority-ish

chick.

Hey, how are you guys?

Yeah, and she did put her arm like, you know, when you're like talking to someone as the photo is getting taken.

Yeah, like she's just Sony, like straight-faced or whatever.

She was so excited about my dad killed his business partner and he got away with it.

Bye.

Bye.

We were like,

I've never been that starstruck in my life.

No.

Yeah.

I was like, email.

I wanted to give her my personal email account to just be like, email us now.

I said, say hi to your dad for me.

It was, it was hilarious.

That was funny.

It was gorgeous.

It was a beautiful.

If you admit to other people's crimes to us in person, we'll mention you on the podcast.

We will listen and we will shout it out.

And we will be subpoenaed in the trial.

Yeah.

No lying, please.

All right.

Should we start?

Yes.

I think now the homework part comes.

Ben.

No, I like my murder.

Are you?

This is what I wanted to do, but I think you're first.

I think I am.

Yeah.

And we're back.

We're here.

It's so funny that we're talking about the listener, Alex.

She's still a listener.

She's still a friend.

And I totally forgot about that Elvis head that you left in the hotel room.

It was so funny.

It was gigantic.

It was enormous.

It was so awesome.

I wish I had like let her keep it because I couldn't have carried that onto the plane.

I mean, it was double the size of an overhead bin, I think.

It was so great, though.

Wasn't it?

It was great.

It was like three people could have stood behind that Elvis head.

It was amazing and very realistic.

Yeah.

And then finding out that we were a BuzzFeed quiz, that was like really early on.

Yes, it was.

Very surreal.

And at first it was like, oh, well, that's people that like our podcast like that quiz.

And then it just lived on.

It just went on and on.

Yeah, it's just so wild.

I like when I was listening to this episode, I'm like,

it feels like it took so, like, it took longer for us to like hit that peak, but it was so fast.

How are we going to wrap our heads around that?

We didn't.

We couldn't.

Well, and also because it was like, we, if we would have been able to wrap our heads around it, I think if we stopped for three months.

Yeah.

But it was like going and then just the work.

I think the weird part was the amount of work just kept adding and adding and adding and adding.

So it was like that we didn't have time to think, to process, to talk about it.

It was literally just every time I saw you, you were holding your phone up to show me a new shocking piece of information about what was going on.

It was just always surreal.

Well, we kept going and we kept showing up at my apartment and doing new stories.

Stephen kept showing up, recording them.

We appreciate that.

Thank God he did.

So nice.

Okay, so this this is a classic, your story that I had never heard before, but still think about.

Let's get into Karen's story about Lord Lucan.

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Bye.

So I have, because of watching the killing season and how heavy it is, and how

it feels like everyone in the world is a serial killer by the time you're halfway through with it, which in some ways is a fun feeling.

It's fun, isn't it?

I like it.

And yet you're still alive.

We made it, everybody.

So, so I switched over as a palate cleanser.

I started watching The Crown, which is a wonderful Netflix series.

British procedural.

It sounds British.

Is it British?

It's the story of Queen Elizabeth.

I figured, God, I'm so smart.

The newest one.

Yeah.

So in a way, it is kind of a British procedural.

Wait, it's the newest show about the

Queen,

became the queen and what her life was like.

She's like a badass.

She's a total badass.

There's parts in it.

I want the Crown TV show to come out with their own book on how to be politely assertive because that's her.

And also, I want them to come out with the color of lipstick that she's wearing because it's this perfect shade of pinkish red that would actually look good.

I can't wear red because my teeth are yellow.

It's little corn nibbles.

I'm very fair.

I'm very fair with red in my skin.

So red lipstick on me makes me look like I have been smoking crack in the alley.

I look like a fucking,

what do they call them?

A rockabilly.

And it's obnoxious.

Yeah.

Well, this is like this muted brownish-pink lipstick.

I bet it's, I bet they make it for her.

That's not even a thing you can fucking buy.

You know what?

I bet they, well, we have a fucking lip gloss that was made for us too, that that girl sent us.

That's right.

Remember?

So the queen.

I'm sorry.

It's not that fucking.

But I want the queen's because it is

because we've started doing Coke before.

Back to being 14.

So

I blended into

this very British kind of fancy regal area.

Yeah, like controlled.

Yes.

And aristocratic, which is, I mean, like, if if I was in that time, I would be like truly the dishwasher in the bottom part of the basement.

Like, holy governor.

Karen.

Do you need a candlestick?

And I wouldn't, but with an Irish accent, which for some reason I can't do right now.

So I decided that my murder is going to be that of the infamous, infamous story of Lord Lucan.

Have you ever heard of him?

I don't think so.

Okay, this one's pretty good because it involves British aristocracy and a disappearance.

You know, I love disappearances.

All right.

So here's the story of this guy.

He was born John Bingham.

And he was born on December 18th, 1934 to an aristocratic family in Marleybone, which is the funniest name for, it's a neighborhood, I guess, in London.

Oh, you're going to get, I don't care what you say next, you're going to get a correction about like what it is pronunciation.

It's in London.

It's actually in Wales.

It's not a neighborhood.

It's a fucking.

It's fucking in New York.

It's a square and it's down.

It's fucking in New York.

Bye.

Yeah, this whole, I'm, I once again am flying in the face of

logic and just trying to be British once again.

Aim for the fucking nose.

Aim for the stars.

Aim for that button button nose.

So John Bingham, during World War II, when he was a boy, he was evacuated out of London, out of Marley Bone.

They're going to be like, it's pronounced Millibin.

Yeah, totally.

He was evacuated to Wales and then

to Canada.

And he got to live with his rich, like friends of family.

That sounds nice.

Relatives, yeah, who are like crazy rich.

But then when he came back to England when the war was over, he was sent to Eaton College.

Now, I was thinking about this in my head, but I didn't look it up.

I think over there, Eaton is like a boarding school that's like grammar and high school.

It's not necessarily a college, like we think of it.

They have like finishing school, right?

Where like you pass your

again, where you put a book on your head, save it if you want to fucking email, text us, that we're tweet us that we're wrong.

It's like a someone in England, tell us what Eaton is.

No, no, I don't care.

Okay, I do care.

No one.

Okay.

But I think it's like a finishing school.

No, I'm going to keep saying that until you agree with me.

This time you said it, like you'd been thinking about it.

And now you've decided it's a finishing school.

I think it's like high school and perhaps.

Like a boarding school.

Yeah.

Okay.

Exactly.

Anyhow.

Finally, we agree.

So when he was there, he supplemented his pocket money with

he was a bookie.

And so that's cool.

Right.

Yeah.

I i think it's very cool i do too he had a secret bank account oh my god and uh he made money as a kid as a kid uh my grandfather was a bookie for real yeah barber

barber shop front barber quote quote unquote bookie nice anyway sorry um so this kid he would leave the school grounds go to horse races take bets and he was like the school bookie

so cool love it well the bad part the uncool part is that he turned out to be a terrible compulsive gambler

later on.

Take that back.

But when he's a kid, that's cute.

Yeah.

So he got the nickname Lucky Lucan

after winning 26,000 pounds at the card game Chemin de Feur

in Le Tour, Le Touquet.

None of that's real.

None of it is meaningful to me in any way.

But

he won a game, a bunch of pounds.

And so that's what made him think

I am lucky and I should be doing this all the time.

Um,

so

so uh, when he got out of school, he was in the army for a little bit and then he um started a job as a merchant banker.

Um,

but he had uh very expensive tastes because he was still an aristocrat.

His parents were very, um,

very, what do you call that?

I was going to say staunch, but that's from Gray Gardens.

It's, um, um, they

they didn't spend a lot of money.

They were like religious.

And uh, uh,

what's the

word?

When you try to, I'm like making a gesture on my chest.

Yeah, like frugal.

Frugal.

Frugal.

There we go.

This gesture worked for me.

How long did that fucking take?

If this podcast is two hours long, it's because we're trying to remember words that neither of us

could enjoy this.

I don't know.

It's madness.

Even Stephen is like, can you get your fucking shit together?

Okay.

So

he had a very expensive tastes because he was still an aristocrat at the end of the day.

And he was raised, you know, by rich people in North America.

So he, his, he had tastes for the best Russian vodka.

He liked to race power boats.

And on.

And from this lift of and Wikipedia, donate to Wikipedia, by the way, if only just $3.

Oh, can you donate to Wikipedia?

Yeah, yeah.

Is that a thing that they're yeah, they are, they're actually having like, they're kind of like public television right now.

Oh, I didn't know that.

And they're trying to get people to to give them money um

because they just they need to stick around i have so many questions i mean i love wikipedia but i won't ask them right now if you click on there right now the thing will come up to say please give us three dollars okay and then we'll do it that's yeah i mean it seems fair for all the shit they give oh my gosh the hours i spent when i had a desk job looking at unsolved murders and serial killers and

love it so anyway this guy basically he's living living the life.

He likes the best of all things.

I was just going to say at the end of this sentence, they were like, he had the best tastes.

He loved the best.

You know, he raced boats.

He loved Russian vodka and smart cars, which I think

in England probably means smart, like cool cars.

But here

means tiny, toy-looking cars that are the stupidest-looking cars you could drive.

I just time travel too, because those didn't exist.

Right.

Like, how cool would that be if he was just like,

he invented the smart car?

Yeah.

All right.

Anyway, um, he was also very charismatic.

He was six foot two with a quote from Wikipedia, a luxuriant mustache.

Like Stevens.

Um,

and he was once considered to play the role of James Bond.

Oh, shit.

So he's that.

He used to see a picture of him on Wikipedia.

He's pretty cute.

Yeah.

Yeah.

He, he, he's very British aristocratic looking, kind of like

pointy nose.

I won't.

It's high class.

You know, it's a British thing.

Pointy nose and kind of like, he looks like he'd be like, very good.

Hey, man,

my husband is the spitting image of Prince William.

So what am I going to?

That's exactly right.

I'm into British shoes.

Yeah.

No complaints.

Also, at one point, he was ranked among the top 10,

the world's top 10.

backgammon players.

So that's

kind of cool.

Badass.

Yeah.

Talk about sex.

I mean, I don't know what backgammon is exactly, but I bet it's hard.

It's, you know what it is?

It's like chess for drunk people is what it is

all right it still sounds like i don't think i like chess for drunk people to me is like bingo connect four is chess that's right for drunk people yeah bingo um

okay so he meets his wife veronica duncan at a golf club function and they get married on november 20th 1963 and uh when they get married so lord lucan's finances when he was a young man and he was gambling so much it got a little iffy in there because he was just like going for it.

And like,

I'm in a boat race.

I have to have an Aston Martin.

You know, he was like living the life and spending all that money.

So when he marries Veronica Duncan,

his father gives him what was called a marriage settlement.

So he gets a big chunk of money to buy a house, to prepare for having kids, like this whole, so he's basically kind of like up in, up in the, in the black.

Sexist.

Got it.

Two months after he gets married, I called him old man Lucan.

Old Man Lucan dies of a stroke.

And so John Bingham inherits 250,000 pounds and his father's titles, which are Earl of Lucan, Baron Lucan of Castlebar, Baron Lucan of Melcombe, Lucan and Baronet Bingham of Castlebar.

I don't know what any of this means.

It's meaningless.

So, cue the mean emails.

It's not meaningless.

It's super meaningless.

Don't shoot foxes, right, everybody?

Okay.

So the problem is that he has a very serious gambling problem.

So at first, it was hot and cute and he's James Bond.

And after a while, it's like, put the fucking backgammon down.

What are you doing?

And he's spending, still spending money like an aristocrat.

So he's like, you know, he's got a open account at Saville Row, Taylor's.

You know what I mean?

People are making

clothing for him.

Yeah.

Look at you, Karen.

I know.

I want to be rich really bad.

Do you?

Really bad.

Really?

Not just rich, though.

I want to be, well, I want to be like Lord Lucan.

I want to be an aristocrat.

What would you do?

What would you like?

I guess I would just drink and smoke cigarettes all day.

Because you can just do it at that point.

Yeah, you can, you can kind of, yeah, you can just kind of, well, it's the same thing you can do if you were basically a bum.

Remember that intervention where the woman had like inherited so much money that she was like, why should I not be an alcoholic?

And then she, they were going to take her to a rehab that was like a 14 hour like a five hour flight but she insisted on getting a limo because she wanted to bring her cats with her so she put her cats in the limo oh like that it was a mess holy

she took a cat road trip yeah she like put cat boxes in the limo like she's me if i just had a

skeleton and like no one could say anything to her because like she wasn't gonna lose anything because she was did it work did she get sober i don't know if there's maybe there's hopefully there's a follow-up i don't know oh man it's been I haven't, I stopped watching that because it's real depressing.

It turns out she ate all those cats.

She got really drunk and then she got hungry and she ate those cats.

Oh, it was poor baby.

I mean, sorry.

Fucking no.

Great field.

Loving it.

Left field.

There's, there's a downside to being an addict.

I think we all know this.

We've tried to tell you over and over.

Yeah.

Okay.

So,

so he and his wife have three kids, George and Camilla, and a third one that for some reason isn't on this list.

And some other, you know, the youngest kid never matters.

Am I wrong?

Yeah, seriously.

I'm living that life.

That's why we're murder podcasts.

Yeah, that's why we're doing what we do.

So Veronica is struggling because she also has three kids in this very short amount of time, of course.

So she's struggling with post-natal depression.

Honey.

And Lord Lucan takes her for treatment at a psychiatric.

clinic.

She refused to be admitted, but she did agree to home visits from a psychiatrist and taking a course of antidepressants.

So she's trying to take care of it, but she won't like, you know, really go take a full break or whatever.

She's like, I can handle this.

Well, then that combined with the pressures of maintaining their finances and his, I mean, he, I read this thing.

I, I didn't include it, but there was a thing of like how he would spend his days.

Oh my God.

It's so hilarious because he would like.

get up and eat breakfast and then go to his gaming club and just gamble all after him.

Yeah.

And you know, know, he was probably drinking too.

Of course.

And then he would come home and get dressed and then put on like his tuxedo to

cigarettes, probably.

Oh, yeah.

And you can't wash that off after a while.

And then he just went out to drink and eat and smoke and gamble more.

That was just, that's all he did all the time.

I would have, that's not post-natal depression.

That's fucking depression.

Yeah.

That she had.

Because she was like, what the fuck?

This is not what I fucking.

So.

Went to finishing school for.

So basically, in the two weeks after after a very strained family Christmas in 1972, Lord Lucan moved out, and then they get into this bitter custody battle.

And

the justice awards custody to Veronica.

Divorce didn't happen back then.

Yeah, it wasn't good.

And I'm sure for aristocrats.

You could push him off the couch.

Elvis is ripping up Karen's notes.

My precious writing.

Okay, so

she is awarded custody of the three kids, and that's all he wanted.

And so why would he want just to fuck with her, right?

Well, no, no, no, he really, I'm sure, really loved his children, and it was very important to him.

But also, I think it was part of this thing that he didn't think she was a fit mother, knowing that she had postnatal

depression.

I think he was partly worried.

And then also partly he was an addict and needed to control things.

Maybe I don't know.

There's something going on.

He gets awarded like every other other weekend visit and he gets really obsessive about it.

So he starts spying on her to prove she's an unfit mother.

He's recording their phone conversations.

He becomes fixated on her and what's happening.

He also, his drinking gets really bad and his gambling, he goes crazy with the gambling.

And all of his friends are like, he's in a downward spiral.

And then all of a sudden,

the week of November 7th in 1974, he seems to like suddenly be pull it together.

And he, there's a couple story firsthand stories of people who

like had dinner with him and he, they try to talk to him about what's going on with the kids and he changes the topic to politics.

And so they're like, oh, maybe he's rounded the corner.

Maybe it's out of his system.

Yeah.

So on the evening of November 7th, 1974,

he had a bunch of plans with people that he didn't, he just didn't show up.

Uh, and that night, the children's nanny, Sandra Rivet,

puts the younger children to bed.

And at about 8:55, she asks Veronica if she'd like a cup of tea.

And um, so she heads downstairs to the basement kitchen.

So there,

that's a fucking sweet ass mansion.

Yeah,

I'll go down to the to the maid's kitchen.

I'm not going to use your nice high-class kitchen to make tea.

So she goes downstairs to the basement kitchen to make Veronica some tea.

And as she enters the room, she is bludgeoned to death with a lead pipe, a piece of bandaged lead pipe.

And her killer places her body in a canvas mail sack.

So meanwhile, upstairs, Lady Lucan wonders what's delaying the nanny.

So she walks down the first floor stairs to see what's happened.

And she calls

from the top part of the stairs, she calls down to Rivet

and to see what's going on.

And the guy comes up and attacks her with the lead pipe as well.

Oh my God.

And

she starts screaming for her life.

The attacker tells her to shut up.

And that's when Lady Lucan knows, she tells the cops later.

that she knows it's her husband.

So she survives.

This guy's got like a mask on or something.

I think the lights were out.

Like

it was dark.

So she's kind of calling down.

She doesn't know what's going on.

And then this guy comes up.

And she thinks she's just getting attacked.

And then she realizes it's her husband, according to her.

So they get into this fight.

She bites his fingers.

He throws her face down in the carpet.

And she manages to turn around and squeeze his testicles.

Good girl.

Release

Stephen.

Stephen just really felt that.

Causing him to release his grip on her throat and give up the fight.

She She asks where Rivet is, and Lucan was at first evasive, then eventually admits that he just killed her.

So what they believe is that he thinks, he thought it was Veronica walking into the basement kitchen.

He was trying to kill his wife and he accidentally killed the nanny.

So this is according to Lady Lucan.

So Lady Lucan

is terrified.

She tells him she'll help him escape if he would just,

well, she's trying to get.

Okay.

So she says i'll help you escape you just have to stay here for a couple days and hide out and allow my injuries to heal because she's been hit with the lead pipe and everything oh my gosh so um

lucan uh she walks upstairs oh i'm sorry lord lucan the the oldest daughter um wakes up so he goes to put her to bed and um

She and then the wife, Veronica, goes into the bedroom, lays down.

She's bleeding.

And he puts down towels for her and like, don't get, don't get the bedding stained with blood.

Weird.

So he asks her, does she have any barbituits?

He goes into the bathroom to get a towel and supposedly clean her face.

And that's when Lady Lucan realizes that

he won't be able to hear her if he's in the bathroom.

And so she runs out of the house.

But their kids still there, though?

Yeah.

But but I think she knew that he didn't want that it was about her and that the attack was about her.

Right.

Because she also did report earlier that he had once hit her with a cane and once tried to push her down the stairs.

So there, he had gotten physical with her before, but he, I think she trusted that he wasn't going to harm their children.

Yeah.

I mean,

that's what it seemed like.

So she runs out of the house.

And she runs to a nearby public house called the Plumber's Arms.

Oh,

when we're in England, let's go get a drink there.

We have to go to a pub called the Plumber's Arms.

So what?

Like big, hairy arms?

Hairy, but like with a tattoo.

Like what kind of bulldog tattoo is that?

Yeah, a bulldog would be good.

Yeah.

Or

an anchor, of course.

Of course, an anchor, or maybe just a, just a Queen Elizabeth's face.

I mean, she's a madass.

Everybody loves her.

Everyone loves her.

Okay.

Okay.

So the police, she, they call the police.

The police go to the house.

But meanwhile, Lord Lucanus calls his own mother and tells her of a terrible catastrophe that's happened at his wife's home um

he

uh tells his mother you have to come here and get the children then he um drives a borrowed car to his friend's house in uckfield east sussex

um

And then hours later, he leaves that property, leaves the car there, and he's never seen again and has never been seen since.

No.

Swear to God.

No.

So that car was found.

He's the one missing.

Yes.

He's the one missing.

He disappeared.

He disappeared.

So no, this is, I was not expecting that.

Yeah.

James Bond is out and about.

Dude.

He, the car was found abandoned in New Haven and the interior was stained with blood.

And the trunk had a piece, boot, for those of our friends in England,

had a piece of bandaged lead pipe similar to the one found at the crime scene.

So there's one that a nanny was killed with that was left at the crime scene.

And there's another one that's in this borrowed car.

And we don't know what, why is all the blood in the car?

And we don't know what that led.

He was covered in blood.

Okay.

And I don't know if there were two.

There's no explanation.

It's just, I'm not sure.

Holy shit.

So,

but then also

he left a letter to the owner of the car that said, my dear Michael.

So he basically borrows this car from this guy.

He's like, Hey, can I borrow your car for a while?

And then just gets blood all in it, abandons it.

And he's crazy.

And he says, My dear Michael, I have had a traumatic night of unbelievable coincidence.

However, have you?

I won't bore you with anything or involve you except to say that when you come across my children, which I hope you will, please tell them that you knew me and that I all I cared about was them.

The fact that a crooked solicitor and a rotten psychiatrist destroyed me between them will be of no importance to the children.

I gave Bill Shand Kidd, which is his brother-in-law,

I gave Bill Shand Kidd an account of what actually happened.

But judging by my last effort in court, no one,

yet alone a 67-year-old judge, would believe.

And I no longer care, except that my children should be protected.

Yours ever, John.

So he's basically saying whatever happened at the house was some weird coincidence that he happened upon.

His excuse is that, and I think there was a, it was in a different letter, that he walked into the the house and his wife was being attacked by an intruder, which the wife is like, no, I'll tell you exactly how it happened, like step by step.

Yeah.

And then also you can trace it all back to the car and the blood and everything.

Yes, point the fucking way.

So they put out a warrant for his arrest a couple days later.

And in his absence, the inquest into Rivet's death named him as her murderer,

which was the last time ever that Britain's coroner's court was ever allowed to do that.

So they were basically like, this guy did it.

Oh, you can't do it.

Yeah.

So a thorough search of New Haven Downs was judged impossible.

I don't know if that's, what's New Haven Downs?

What's a thorough search?

What's anything in this fucking world?

I pictured New Haven Downs to be just full of a bunch of brambles.

Charming as fuck.

It's like the moors, but brambly.

Brambles everywhere.

Brambles and scones or scones.

Scones.

A partial search was made using tracker dogs, although all that was found were the skeletal remains of a judge who had disappeared years earlier.

I'm sorry.

What?

Yes.

Yes.

So when they do search New Haven Downs, this impossible to search area,

unrelated.

Unrelated.

They find skeletal remains of a judge.

All right.

Maybe, maybe how about once a year you search New Haven Downs.

Get some fucking puppies out there.

Yet they love doing it.

Give them a run around.

It's fun for them.

Find a judge.

Um,

police diverge search the harbor.

So basically, they went everywhere and tried to find this guy.

This guy's more important than a fucking judge.

That's right.

Clearly, he's a way bigger deal.

Yeah, he is among the top 10 backgammon players in the world.

You have to find him.

Must find him.

Um,

they don't find, so basically, they can't find anything.

They use uh infrared photography.

I don't, they don't, I don't see where

smart cars.

Smart phones.

So a warrant for Lucan's arrest to answer charges of murdering Sandra Rivet and attempting to murder his wife was issued on Tuesday, November 12th, 1974.

And descriptions of his appearance

were issued to Interpol, so it could be Internacio now.

And of course, all across the UK.

So apparently, it's this, it's since that time been a great British pastime to theorize where Lord Lucan is.

And people love saying they saw him places.

So the reports have been coming in pretty consistently year after year

saying, I saw Lord Lucan here or there.

And so some of the places

they have reported him seeing him was as a hippie dropout in Goa, which I don't know.

I don't know where that is.

Doubt.

Where he was known, they said he was known there as Jungle Berry,

as you do.

The best nickname of all time.

What is it?

They said he was about backpacking on Mount Etna.

Someone said they saw him working on a sheep station in the Australian Outback.

Yeah.

Those all sound like things people who run away from life would do.

Yeah.

to get as far away as possible.

Yeah, who are like trying to not have an identity anymore.

Right.

Which would make sense.

Yeah.

But John Aspinall, who is the owner of the Claremont Gaming Club, which is the place he used to go like around lunchtime every single day, said, told the news, I find it difficult to imagine him in Brazil or Haiti as a fugitive.

I don't think he has the capacity to adapt.

Which is kind of rough.

There was also a rumor.

Aspinall owned a private zoo.

And so there was a rumor that he was cut up and fed to the tigers at that zoo.

And he, Aspinall, when told that rumor, responded, my tigers are only fed the choicest cuts.

Do you really think they're going to eat stringy old lucky?

Oh

my God.

And the most plausible theory is that he drowned himself in the channel.

Yeah.

That's what most people think.

But here's, this is just an interesting,

another coincidental thing.

13 years later, so when they had

that nanny,

Sandra Rivet was their nanny, but they had had a nanny right before

her.

And her name was Christabel.

I can't find her last name.

Christabel Bell.

You don't see it.

But her name is Christabel something or other.

And turns out she was married to an economist named Nicholas Boyce.

And

on October 10th, 1985, Nicholas Boyce was sent to prison for dismembering his wife and dumping her pieces of her body around London.

So it was her, the nanny one before this

also was murdered by her

fancy husband.

So fancy husbands are just fucking running them up.

They went nutso crazy.

Sure.

Which I thought was, oh, and also,

they convicted him of manslaughter, but not murder.

And he was sentenced to six years in jail.

Oh, that's no big deal.

Mansaugh de la big.

Just kill her and throw her arms and legs around the city.

And then,

yeah.

So, um,

that's the story.

Oh, sorry.

It was Christabel 32 was a former governess of the children to learn of Lord Lucan, who vanished without a trace after another nanny was battered to death at his home.

You think he did it?

What?

Killed Lucan or whatever the fuck?

Killed the second nanny?

The first nanny.

Oh, hell yes.

Wait, both nannies no no no no the second one got killed by her husband oh okay later okay that was later on 13 years later the second nanny gets killed in what is a coincidence but is super creepy because what the fuck is going on i thought it was the first okay yeah no but the first i'm sure the way everything oh yeah adds up it's just basically where did he go after did he immediately kill himself or did he actually go he's db cooper Yeah, did he shave that luxuriant mustache off and go live somewhere for a while?

You could go anywhere you want back then.

And also with all his money.

Oh,

charming and, you know, dapper, he probably went to like Monte Carlo or something.

That's what I was thinking too.

How old is he now?

How old would he be?

He's dead now.

He was proclaimed to be dead.

I don't know, but like, how old would he be?

Like in his the article that I said where they they proclaimed him dead.

I think they said he was like would have been 81 or 82.

That's livable, especially if you're living the fucking backhamming high life and fucking Monte Carlo.

Backhammon doesn't take that much out of you.

No.

Yeah.

No.

And if you're just pickled with gin, you can live for a really long time.

Bet you he's still alive.

I mean, it'd be pretty cool.

We should make a rule that people have to confess stuff on their death.

Like on their deathbed, they have to confess things.

Yeah.

Like you're not.

Yeah.

That'd be nice.

Wouldn't it?

Just to solve a couple mysteries.

Like, don't take shit to your grave.

Yeah.

You're being a selfish dick.

So that's my good times.

Uh, that was amazing.

High-class murder mystery from England.

Never heard that one.

Please let us know all the mistakes from that one

as soon as you can.

Or don't.

Or go.

You know, every time you get mad at this podcast, go give $3 to Wikipedia.

We're going to solve all of Wikipedia's problems.

They're going to be like, thank you.

We've had an influx of thousands and thousands of dollars.

So much money.

Okay.

And we're back from your story.

I still can't believe they just found a judge.

Yeah.

The skeletal remains of a judge, but okay.

I mean, wilds.

There are some updates for this story.

Okay.

Not on Lord Lucan, but Sandra Rivet had a son who she gave up for adoption when he was a baby.

So Neil Berryman didn't learn of his biological mother until she was an adult, but he did know that her death was one of the biggest murder mysteries of all time.

He believes Lord Lucan was the murderer and that he escaped to Africa.

So he's continued to search for him, spent years working with former BBC investigative journalist Glenn Campbell, not to be mistaken for the singer.

You can see that investigative journey on a BBC series from 2024 called Lucan.

Wow.

Yeah.

So I feel like if his body was never found, he was still alive, you know?

Yes.

I just don't buy it.

Also, when people have money to run, like they can do a lot.

Yeah.

And get away, especially back then when there was no like internet, no nothing.

Yeah.

There was no like CCTV footage and like facial recognition software.

You're just fucking gone.

And that guy, like, he grows a pencil-thin mustache, or he maybe already had one, but he grows a different kind of mustache and then just goes into the mountains, like in France somewhere and he's gone forever.

Like, do you think it's better to disappear into like a crowded, anonymous city or a smaller, like, widsy town City.

Yeah, right.

I think, like, you get yourself a little walk-up apartment in the lower east side of New York.

Yeah.

And you dye your hair some weird color.

Nobody.

Nobody will ever find you.

Yeah, because if you're in a small town, you know everyone.

Everyone knows everyone.

Some stranger coming into town is immediately suspicious just because why would you move into this small town by yourself?

Yes.

Immediately people are talking about you.

If you're at the grocery store, all of a sudden,

they're like, who is this interloper?

Unless, what's that little like weird shanty town in like joshua tree oh 29 palms no

it's the army base

i know what's i don't know what you mean don't move to an army base there's like a weird it's like they'll totally beyond you in that army base for sure it's like a 29 palms salt and sea type of like town shanty town where like it's off of the grid oh and people go there to get away that's what it's slab city oh i've heard of that yeah it's like really like um graffitied and you can kind of live off the grid and live in your rv or you know your home that you made or your tent or your car is that where you'd go for your escape where would you go to escape forever well i'm not telling anyone but if you really wanted to find second choice

i guess lapsed you know maybe yeah maybe somewhere in europe just to have something new and exciting because like just be like I'm going to Baltimore.

It's like, I would, I would be like, I want to go home now.

Not that I don't want to be in Baltimore, but it's like not different enough to be super exciting that you're on the run.

Yes.

It wouldn't feel like hidden enough.

I feel like I could definitely go to Pittsburgh.

I would blend in perfectly.

Love the vibe there.

All right.

So I'll be in Baltimore.

You'll be in Pittsburgh.

And we'll call each other on the phone and talk like this to each other.

I don't know what this accent is, but this is the one I'm going to use.

It works.

It works.

How about we, all of us listening, meet at the Plumber's Arms in London, which is still open.

Still open.

The Plumber's Arms.

I mean, you guys.

They're the beautiful part.

Yeah.

British pubs are kind of forever, or at least fight like hell to be forever.

Yeah.

Right?

Yeah.

And they won't turn you in.

That's some like.

No.

Don't ask, don't tell.

Especially if you're good at trivia night.

They would never turn you in.

Oh, also, just so you know, our writer, Alison Agasty, really did a bunch of research and trying to find out what that pink-brown lipstick color was from the crown.

That's amazing.

And there's a couple options.

She thinks it's a Rodin Oleoluso lipstick in a color so mod.

I've never heard that lipstick name before.

That sounds like for rich people.

I've never heard of that.

When you hear like a brand, like a high-end brand that you've never heard of, whether it's like clothing or makeup,

it's like, oh, that's Haley Bieber's favorite.

Yeah.

That's something they sell at like a counter at Barney's.

Yeah.

Barney's counter.

Totally.

You're not going to the Americana like Macy's and fucking picking that up next to the Chanel counter.

No, they won't let you touch it, actually.

If you're anywhere near it, all the women that work there turn their back on you, like French maids in the 1600s.

So now it's time to get into George's story, the Summer Hill Road Murders.

How could popular Mormon family vlogger Ruby Frankie end up being convicted for child abuse?

The answer to that question is Jodi Hildebrand.

But Jodi's manipulation extended far beyond the Frankie family, seemingly leaving a trail of victims in her wake.

This ID documentary event features never-before-seen interviews from survivors who found the courage to expose her systematic abuse.

Ruby and Jodi, a cult of sin and influence, premieres September 1st at 9 p.m.

Eastern on ID.

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Goodbye.

There's more to San Francisco with the Chronicle.

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Knowing San Francisco is our passion.

Discover more at sfchronicle.com.

Ready for the Summer Hill Road murders.

Yeah.

Dude, this is one of these.

This is one of those ones I've wanted to do for so long.

Okay.

All right.

Quick sips.

Quick sip.

So

Fayetteville, North Carolina.

It's near Fort Bragg.

Let's talk about 1985.

Okay.

All right.

So that Sunday, May 12th, an Army sergeant named Bob Sefelt and his wife noticed that the papers were piling up on their neighbor's doorstep.

And they were like, what's going on?

That's bad.

And you know what?

We haven't seen her in a couple of days and her car is in the driveway.

Oh.

The people that were living there was a woman named Catherine Eastburn.

She was the mother to five-year-old Kara and three-year-old Aaron, as well as Jana, who was 21 months.

Her husband, Gary Eastbourne, was away attending an Air Force captain in training school in Alabama.

So he was out of town.

They knew that she's not fucking around.

What's going on?

They heard a baby crying when they went to look at the house.

They look in a window and see Jana, the 21th, 21-month-old standing by herself in her crib.

Her arms were outstretched to them.

That for some reason, Fucking Bob is like, let's wait till the cops get here before we break in.

The cops get there.

They break in.

They find Jana.

She's severely dehydrated, so dehydrated.

And when I fucking, I remember hearing this a while back that it, I think about it all the time.

Her teeth were black.

Oh.

And she had hours left to live.

Oh my God.

I know.

They pass her through the window to the neighbor and then they go to look through the rest of the house.

So in the master bedroom, they find the five-year-old Erin lying on the floor by the bed.

Her throat's been cut.

On the other side of the bed bed is Katie, the mom.

She's bound with rope.

Her blouse and bra are pulled apart.

She's naked from the waist down.

Her throat is cut and she has multiple stab wounds to her body.

I know.

Fucked up shit.

Two doors down from the bedroom, they find Kara,

the three-year-old.

It's really awful.

She's stabbed to death as well.

She's under her blanket.

It looks like she's almost like hiding under her blanket.

And she stabbed her death.

And also, Katie, the mom, was raped.

All three had severed throats.

I know.

Guess what day it was that they found her?

Mother's Day, 1985.

All right.

So the witnesses.

So one neighbor says he saw a man leave their home at about 3 a.m.

after the murders are thought to have taken place based on, you know, the autopsy.

She said she saw a white Chevette parked near the crime scene.

Then a man who lived in the area named Patrick Cohn approaches and says that he saw a man leaving the residence three nights before when the murder was supposed to happen.

And he says, quote, I was walking home from my girlfriend's house about 3:30 a.m.

As I was walking, I saw a white Chevette parked on the road.

Then I saw this white dude walking down the ladies' driveway.

I passed right by him and he said, I'm getting an early start this morning, or something like that.

Then I watched him get in his white chevette and drive off he describes the man very thoroughly uh he's six foot four blonde he had on a black beanie a black members only jacket white shirt blue jeans had was like carrying a bag over his shoulder It just makes me think of that.

Did you see that graphic, that infographic where it said, like, in your life, you'll walk by a murderer 36 times?

Yes.

That's amazing.

That was one of his 36.

I think so.

Or so in the 30s.

It was so, it's so high.

I know.

For that, it just made me think of that.

Oh, that's scary.

It's horrifying.

So, three days after the murders, the cops find out that

a couple days before the family had been killed, they had put in a classified ad to get their dog adopted because they were leaving the country.

So this Katie is by herself at home, and a man answers the ad and comes and gets the dog during the day.

Um,

and they're like, Who the fuck is this dude?

Here's a composite sketch.

They put it on the fucking news.

The man who adopted the dog, his name is Tim Hennis, was watching the news that night and was like, shit,

that's the dog we adopted.

And I look a lot like that sketch.

So he goes to the police.

He answers all their questions.

He doesn't get an attorney.

He gives them samples of of hair, blood, semen, everything.

He just, he's really cooperative.

But he drives a white Chevette.

Oh, no.

Yeah.

They let him go because they don't have enough evidence to arrest him.

But later the night, they go back with a warrant for him and arrest him.

So the night that they thought

the women got or the mom and the kids got killed.

So Tim Henness had dropped his wife and their daughter off at his parent-in-law's.

Then he drives to an ex-girlfriend's house, propositions her.

She shoots him down.

He says he went home, ate dinner, watched TV, and went to bed.

The Friday morning, they thought that was Thursday night, the morning after, he takes a single item to the dry cleaners,

a black members-only jacket.

Oh, dude.

The only things that were stolen from the house, it seems, are a debit card and some cash.

And so $150 is taken out twice.

That's the limit.

So $300.

And it turns out that Tim Hennes is $300 short on rent, which he pays the Monday after these murders.

Then a woman identifies him as being the man she saw at the same time that she was there at the ATM.

All right.

So

a forensic expert goes in there.

He...

six months later finds a condom package undiscovered by the police underneath the dresser.

So he fucking finds finds a condom wrapper.

Fuck.

So according to him and his forensic expertise, he says that the condom suggests consensual sex.

Because very rarely did

a rapist carry condoms to commit their violent acts, which I want to fucking call bullshit on immediately.

Well, yeah, in the 80s, they probably thought that, but of course, you don't want to leave DNA or anything behind.

I just don't think, I just hate that argument that, well, if there was a condom on, then you had time to fight or it was consensual somehow.

Oh, no.

You know what I mean?

Like that, that pisses me off.

Well, yeah, that's insanity.

That's what he says.

He said that, so the man, Paul Stombach,

concludes that the murders were committed by two assailants and that the little girls might have been killed because they could identify the killer.

But he says, someone said that they, they were killed because they could identify the killer, but he says that the girls were asleep

when they got killed.

Okay.

So this dude, Tim

Henness, goes to trial

and the jury returns with a guilty verdict and he's sentenced to three life sentences.

Oh shit.

Yeah.

No, no, no, no.

I'm sorry.

He

sentenced to death three times.

Oh my gosh.

Yeah.

Because they're pissed.

They're like, yeah, you killed little girls.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Setting an example.

Um, right when he's getting booked, he receives a postcard, this guy, Tim Henness,

from someone calling themselves Mr.

X.

And it says, Dear Mr.

Henness, I did the crime.

I murdered the Eastburns.

Sorry, you're doing the time.

I'll be safely out of North Carolina when you read this.

Thanks, Mr.

X.

Fuck you, Mr.

X.

Right.

Who is that?

And the prosecution got that too.

Who is that?

Who is that, Mr.

X?

So he's on death row for two years.

And then the defense is arguing to get him out of, you know, to get his conviction overturned.

They argue that the crime scene photos that the jury saw were so gruesome and awful that it swayed the jury's decision.

And his conviction is overturned in 1989.

And they, he gets sent back for a retrial.

So he's convicted, and then it's overturned, and he goes back for a retrial.

But sorry, but how can a picture sway like just having to look at that?

There's no way that they could then go from there and make a decision.

They put up these huge photos of it, you know, over his head and were hammering, you know, the crime scene photos, the autopsy photos of little girls

were hammering at home and saying that, you know, there was no,

there was no way the jury would not want to convict someone for doing this stuff.

Well, and also the jury was traumatized by having to be absolutely.

Yeah.

I feel so bad for those people.

So, I mean, what do you think about that being overturned on those based on that?

I mean,

you know, it just immediately makes me think of the staircase and like those people where when we think of like the prosecutor, you give them all this credit.

Like you think, oh, these are going to be people who are presenting a fair case fairly, as opposed to people who have an immediate bias and want to win their case in an agenda thing to do it yeah totally i mean

and if you think about the the um evidence against him we really don't have anything other than you know some witness statements and the fact that he was there a couple days beforehand getting the dog yeah he has no alibi that night it's bad news for him because It's almost like you were presenting it in a way where I was like, oh, this poor guy.

But then the more things you said, I was like, it's totally that.

how could you?

It's so obvious.

Yeah, it's the Occam's razor thing where it's like this.

There's no, it's not, it can't be a coincidence.

Well, that's why I love this case.

It's fucking, it gets worse.

Okay, don't worry, it gets worse.

So, at his second trial, all the witnesses are wishy-washy, and the prosecution argues this, and that you know, and they break under pressure, and so it's kind of all convoluted.

Um, and then the defense for Tim, uh, Henness, were able able to find a dude

who, okay, so this dude would walk the neighborhood late at night.

He was 6'4,

same height as Tim Henness,

and he admitted to always wearing a members-only jacket, a black beanie, a white t-shirt, and dark corduroy pants, and carrying a book bag over his shoulder.

He walks in the courtroom.

He's a spitting fucking image of Tim Hennis.

No.

Yes.

No.

Yes.

All right.

Spitting image.

Somehow, this dude, A, agreed to fucking do this.

Yeah, that's what I was going to say.

Wouldn't you be like, I think it's time for me to move to San Francisco.

Goodbye.

So Tim Henness acquitted on all counts.

Conviction overturned, acquitted.

Now, sorry, but they're not, they didn't prosecute that guy.

They were just saying it's possible.

Yeah, that they saw someone else.

They, they kind of like, uh, all the like, all the eyewitnesses, they were able to discredit for whatever reason.

Okay.

So there was, you know, nothing really

tying him to the murder.

And members-only jackets were crazy popular in 1985.

That's that's true.

Tall blonde men wearing members-only jackets.

Oh my God, there were so many of them.

Everywhere.

Yeah.

Okay.

Let's go.

All right.

This is 89.

Let's go to 2007.

Okay.

DNA.

is a thing now.

God.

Thank fucking God.

So there's DNA inside Kate, the mom, who had been raped, although

they didn't specifically say that she had been forcibly raped.

They decided

the condom theory.

But there was semen inside of her.

Right.

So the condom could have nothing to fucking do with any of this.

The results of the DNA test from the semen inside of Kate showed with

12 million to one certainty that the semen belonged to Tim Henness.

Oh, no.

Right, but he had already been acquitted.

Oh, no.

So, motherfucking double jeopardy,

right?

It's so double jeopardy is prohibited by the Fifth Amendment.

It means that you can't get tried for something that you'd already been acquitted for.

Yes.

Which seems like it needs to be fucking fixed and it's stupid, but.

No, no, no.

I mean, considering DNA now, like in in this situation, but that's no, it's a good law because it's like saying they can't just keep on coming at you and being like, we did, we believe it's you.

Like if they've proven, yeah, if they, if we didn't come through it, but in a perfect system, when those prosecutors go to the judge with new evidence, the judge will, will, will,

you know, judge that evidence and, and say whether or not it's, you know, it's, it's worth a new trial.

But that'll never be a perfect system because it's a human system.

I know.

That's the problem with life.

So you can't just keep on going, like, well, here we're going to do it again.

And this time it's going to be, because then it could just be like, if you had a crazy prosecutor that won't leave you alone, well, guess what?

They did it a third time.

What?

They took him to trial.

How?

Well, I'll fucking tell you.

How?

I ask if as if I'll never find out.

I don't, I don't know.

Usually, I don't know.

Thanks for this.

This is my story.

Okay, so Tim Henness had been

a soldier in the U.S.

Army.

So the

state can't try him, but the Army can.

Oh, shit.

The military can.

Because he'd been a soldier, the U.S.

Army could.

And the federal government is a sovereign authority separate from the individual states that make up the country.

Okay.

So Tim at this time, Tim Hennes, who's 49 years old, retired as fuck from the Army.

Just chill laxing.

Chilling as fuck.

Murdering entire family.

So he's retired.

And this is a big fucking point of contention.

He is ordered out of retirement and back into active duty just so they could court-martial him for the murders.

Shit.

Yeah.

Seems unfair.

Right.

I mean, just if devil's advocate, if he was innocent.

Unprecedented.

Yeah.

Like, and this argument of like

who has.

final say are you bigger than the fucking you know it's government shit it's government shit if the government wants you they're gonna get you.

You fucked.

So at the at the fucking court-martial trial,

his attorney, Tim Henness's attorney brings up the possibility because they had found semen in her vagina that maybe they had had consensual sex, even though he had never admitted to that.

And he didn't say that.

The attorney did.

And the fucking jury was like.

are you like that's what you're bringing up now so they find him guilty on three counts of premeditated murder but guess what the statute of limitations had expired on rape so he didn't get

Can we please talk about the statute of limitations on rape?

I feel like they're getting rid of that.

I feel like there's some states where they've gotten rid of it.

Yeah.

It's in action, I believe.

It's just, I just want to bring it up how fucking disgusting that is.

No, you're exactly right.

It just makes me sad.

In the same exact way that it's disgusting that

Mike Pence wants women to have funerals for their fetuses.

They have funerals for miscarriages.

Miscarriages.

It's truly insanity.

It's hurtful and mean and fucking.

It's spiteful and it's assuming.

It's just so controlling and insane.

It's so controlling.

Okay.

Found guilty.

So now he's on death row, like right fucking now.

This was in 2010.

He's on death row in an army facility in Fort Leavenworth, Kansas.

Okay, now let's get to show a couple random things before we decide everything.

Okay, okay.

Okay.

So in his case, there's no blood, fingerprints, or fiber evidence that connects him to the murder, and he has an alibi for the ATM visit, which is a little shaky.

I'm not saying he didn't do it, I'm just saying, like, here's some weird shit because I really don't know, right?

Um, two former FBI assistant directors released a report concluding that the unit, that the unit that had um tested his DNA and found that it was in her vaginal swab,

um,

that they had overstated, misreported, or withheld blood evidence in dozens of cases, including three that ended in executions.

Oh, no.

They,

uh, the, the, okay.

This quote, they had to throw out cases and cases because the results were either doctored, wrong, or covered up.

The lab was shown to be a total tool for the state's prosecutors.

Oh, no.

Right.

Wait.

And this was in, sorry, this was in North Carolina.

Uh, yeah.

Okay.

Or Kansas.

This one.

I don't want to be wrong.

You started in North Carolina.

Yeah.

But now, but he's in Kansas.

Oh, because of DC.

Got it.

Got it.

All right.

So let's really.

So basically, they're just like, we're going to send this off to here and get exactly what we want back.

Yeah.

And they're proven to be incorrect, but we're not going to check back in with those crimes.

And I'm pretty sure those swabs were held in a box that were unrefrigerated that on the box of evidence said Tim Hennis's name, not the name of the murder victims.

Like they were already fucking targeting him.

They were focusing on him.

Yes.

This is what they wanted to find.

Okay.

All right.

So finally, I just want to talk about

Julie,

who was the family babysitter of the three little girls.

When they interviewed her,

She told the cops that the residents had been targeted with harassing phone calls, some of a sexual nature.

And she said

two other things that her stepbrothers strongly resembled Tim Hennis and even showed them photos of it.

And that she had been assisting the vice squad in setting up bus from local for local drug dealers.

And she even said on one occasion that she'd been followed home from the Eastbourne residence by an angry drug dealer.

Okay, but here's the coolest thing.

Not coolest, but like worse.

So she admits to her fascination.

She's like a 16-year-old, a fascination fascination with Dr.

Jeffrey McDonald.

Fatal vision.

Is that what's that?

It's the one who was accused, right?

Yeah.

So he, so he's a military officer.

He claims a band of drug-crazed long-haired hippies broke into his home while he was sleeping on the couch, murdered his pregnant wife and two and five-year-old daughters.

Yes.

Sounds familiar, right?

Yeah.

While he

upstairs, he's convicted of the slings, sentenced to death.

At the time of the the murders,

the family, it was 1970, so it was clearly, you know, 15 years difference.

But at the time of the murders, the McDonald family lived

four and a half miles from the fucking Eastbourne home.

What?

Yeah.

And this girl who was the babysitter of these three little girls was fascinated and writing him letters, and they were communicating in prison.

And her fucking siblings looked exactly like these guys.

And

she believed he was innocent.

They wrote all the time.

They had the DEA had set up a drug deal using Julie,

this girl Julie, and the victim's house that weekend that fell through and the murders happened.

No way.

Right?

What?

She was obsessed with him, apparently.

She was obsessed with Jeffrey McDonald's.

Yeah.

Dr.

Jeffrey McDonald's.

Yeah.

Wait, that girl.

Okay.

The babysitter's like, what a rich life she's living.

Yeah.

Because she's setting up, like, she's trying to do like drug stings.

Yeah.

I mean, and she's 16.

Yeah.

Jesus Christ.

I know, right?

Now, also, does she, was that a secret to the family that she's like setting these stings up for?

I don't think the family knew, but she like fucking blabbed to the cops immediately about all this stuff.

Oh my fucking God.

I know, right?

Like the, it's just too crazy that, that the murders are so similar.

What's your theory?

Like, with all of that?

Oh my gosh.

I'm just saying.

Do you think he's innocent or guilty?

You know me.

I can go fucking either way.

I think

it's that thing of like, I don't know if he's involved or not, but I don't know if he should be in prison or not.

I don't know.

I don't know.

It's too circumstantial to me.

And the fact that they didn't get DNA until 2007, especially if there was a condom wrapper and that was their theory.

Was it a common wrapper or was it a used condom?

I think it was a condom wrapper.

So it was just basically proof that there was a condom somewhere in yeah and the forensic guy was like i don't know the sex life between the husband and wife but this was there right

so if if you're introducing a condom wrapper and semen oh and oh no wait hold on

there was like a towel that had blood on it there were all these there was a shoe print that was a size nine and tim was a size 13 in blood there was all these

it it points to to at least i know there are more than than one,

there's more than one murderer or more than one person.

Yeah.

So either he did it with someone else or, you know, someone thought there was money in the house.

They knew this woman was alone.

The thing

to me,

the idea.

of killing children, slashing, stabbing children to death and slashing their, that's a person who is beyond, like, right?

That's a person that is,

um, that's no, that's a person that's not motivated by money or drugs.

Cause I feel like those people,

um, or that has to be a person that's maybe on drugs, bear men.

And then you think about the fact that they left the 21-month-old alive because she couldn't identify anyone.

And you think, okay, at first I was like, well, they must know the assailant.

They must know the killer.

Otherwise, he wouldn't have had to, you know, if they just went into there to rob and rape and even kill the mother.

Right.

They, unless,

but then the forensic dude said that they were sleeping, which I don't completely buy because I guess she was like cowering under her Star Wars blanket.

I know, which is heartbreaking.

Well, yeah, I mean, it's

like you don't, why,

why?

You don't kill children if you're just

right.

Because even

burglars are just like, I just want to steal shit.

You don't kill children.

You don't get from stealing fucking money to killing children.

Right.

And you don't even, if you're retaliating against someone like a stool pigeon who is this 16 year old girl, what does a five-year-old have to do with that?

And then, and who has the fucking like ice cold in their veins to be able to kill two children and the mother?

And then, and then why would you leave them right child?

Like it, all of it is like

so random.

It just to me, what makes sense is that the the girl told information to the wrong people.

Maybe she had nothing to do with it.

And she was obsessed with, i mean maybe maybe she did the fact that she was obsessed with this killer who killed

who maybe killed you know and that's a whole nother my favorite murder because we've i think we've both talked about that one how erol morris thinks he's innocent yeah yeah i mean that's a whole yeah episode but

it's too similar to the murderer she was obsessed with Right.

And maybe he's not the murderer.

Yeah.

And or innocent man she's obsessed with.

Yeah.

Because there is the, there are.

Why?

But they're still the same.

They're still so similar.

Yes.

Very similar.

That's crazy.

Now,

it's such a personal thing to stab somebody to death.

It's such an angry thing.

And such a, as we all know, that's like a

personal attack.

Where, has the husband in any way been introduced into this mix?

No, Gary is a fucking saint and a good guy.

He, he and his, he raised Jana.

She's fucking amazing and wonderful.

Like he, he had nothing to do with it.

Right.

Right.

Okay.

For sure.

Just, I know.

It seems like he should and you'd look into it but i don't i really don't think he does they always you know yeah husband the husband's the first totally and then i wonder like okay so stabbing is a really personal thing and that but that's

that's not as gruesome as something like slitting someone's throat like those are two very different

oh but i would actually it's more gruesome because you can

um stabbing because it's repeated whereas slitting someone's throat you can do it and walk away and know that they're going to bleed out and die.

Yeah, but have you ever like punched someone and you're like, I really like mid-punch or like, I don't want to do this and say you kind of do it like weekly, like week, no?

No, I mean, I've never punched anyone, I don't think.

Oh, go ahead.

Hit me in the face.

Let's do an experiment right

now.

I don't know.

But I mean, it wasn't it multiples.

I mean, it's like this insane.

To cut someone's throat hard enough to fucking kill them, I feel like takes more effort than,

someone who doesn't really want to be doing this.

You know what I mean?

Like, I know it did.

Or even if you don't want to be doing it, you're not going to then lightly stab multiple times.

Like, that's the, that's the thing is it wasn't if it were to me, a slashing someone's throat is similar to, it's like you don't have a gun.

It's similar to like a kill shot in the back of the head where you're just getting it over with.

Stabbing them.

Incapacitate them by stabbing them.

Yeah.

And then you slip their throat to just fucking end it.

But the stabbing part is the part where you get involved.

And that's why, why would you even go through that?

Unless you want to.

Yeah.

Unless you're okay with the idea of fucking stabbing a human.

Also,

also, she kind of looked like my mom.

The mom?

Kate did, yeah.

Had that like that

70s mom hair.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Sorry, go on.

No, no, no.

No, I'm just thinking like, it's just so crazy.

The fact that they had two witnesses for a person that was leaving the house at 3 a.m.

You know what I mean?

And also, how can it be that many coincidences where it's like he was there?

He had the same car.

He had the same clothes.

He went there a couple of days before, knew she was alone in the house.

Yeah, that's not good for him.

I don't think so either.

It doesn't.

The coincidences that would have to happen for that to happen are fucking insane.

He gets what people think online, like Web Sleuths is like the coolest fucking website.

And they're like discussing it.

Which is all over Killing Season, by the way.

It's there, like they talk about Web Sleuths the whole time.

Oh, that's awesome.

Yeah.

So they're like, well, he went to his ex-girlfriend's house that night, got turned down for boning and was like horny as fuck, knew a woman who was home alone, went over there, she turned him down and he fucking flipped.

Yeah.

That's

my theory.

Yeah.

And he's like enraged at women.

He's like on a mission.

But he's never,

according to everyone else, the rest of his life, he's been a fucking decent human being.

Right.

He does have some check forging

charges, but that's not the same thing as.

Oh, but that's something.

Well, it's not a totally clean record.

That's not being like a decent human being.

That means check forging is like you're willing to cheat to get money.

Yeah.

That's something.

I feel like that's the way some people start.

Yeah.

And then you need to cover your tracks and shit.

Yeah.

Oh, oh my god,

I don't know.

That's crazy.

I don't know, and horrible in so many ways.

Those poor little babies.

Oh, that's what I wanted to end on, actually.

Is that I wanted to end with

talking about the victims because it's how it's like, I don't want to end on this fucking dick.

So, Gary, the dad, the father, and the dad, uh, the tombstones that he had them etched with.

So, um,

so Aaron,

okay.

So,

Aaron, who's three years old, he had tiny dancer written on her tombstone.

For Kara, who is five, he had daddy's little shadow.

And for Catherine, his wife, he had, you are the sunshine of my life.

I just wanted, I just didn't want to end on

something that wasn't tragically sad.

I just wanted to mention them at the end.

No, totally.

You know what I mean?

Of course.

I mean, yes, absolutely.

But no, that's.

Karen, please, please tell me what happened.

Okay, here's what happened.

Please, that guy got a dog.

And that dog was a piece of shit.

And he was pretty pissed off.

Yeah.

And that's it.

This theory falls apart.

No, this is, that's maddening.

And it's the kind of thing when it introduces the idea that DNA evidence can't be trusted, that the system can't be trusted, that an entire prosecutor's office can't be trusted.

Then it doesn't really matter what answers you come up with because nothing ever feels like an answer.

To me,

the period on this sentence is that there is so many other DNA hits in that house that there's no way that the story they're telling us is what happened.

Blood on a towel from like after

killing them.

It looks like it was cleaned up.

There's a pubic hair in the fucking living room.

There's bloody footprints.

There's fibers that and DNA under their under two of their fingernails that don't match to him.

Oh, there's DNA under their fingernails.

And for some reason, they refuse to put it through CODIS.

That's very weird, isn't it?

It's just because they don't want to introduce something that doesn't match.

Yeah.

Oh, man.

Hey.

So, yeah, that's the

Summer Hill Road murders that has fucking stuck with me for years and years.

That's crazy.

That's amazing.

Yeah.

Wow.

Hi.

Hi.

How are you?

I'm ruined.

How are you?

Yeah, not great.

No.

Well, fascinating though.

Yeah, isn't it?

Well, because they are, I just was reading something recently about how

I think it's the hair evidence.

Was it hair evidence?

Something is being becoming more reliable than fingerprint.

Something's more reliable?

Yeah.

Like finger, they're starting to say the fingerprint evidence might not be as reliable as they thought.

Oh my god.

Basically, I think obviously we know that

forensic science is still developing.

Oh my God.

Yeah.

But I just wish it would move ahead quick so we could just find out.

Because that's the confidence of DNA evidence being the final word.

Yeah.

That's where everyone goes, okay, well, sorry, but it's DNA evidence.

So go ahead.

Nothing we can do about it.

Instead of knowing that humans deal with that DNA from the moment it is picked up as evidence at the scene, it's it's being picked up by a human to when it's tested in the lab.

To a lab being like owned by the prosecutor's office.

It's like humans.

That's just horrifying.

This is why I think that double jeopardy in the age of DNA and retesting and the innocence project and all this, we might need to rethink that.

I don't think so.

No.

Well, because it's like saying you get the one chance.

Well, it's yeah.

So it's so shitty that like, you know, all these,

all these defense attorneys or sorry, all these prosecutors and cops, you know, when they can't bring a trial, they can't bring someone to trial because they don't have the body, you know, so they have to wait until they find the body.

Right.

It's just,

dude, I don't know.

So you let this person go free or do you try to fucking, do you try without a body to convict them?

I mean, yeah, you have to do something.

Yeah.

And if it doesn't, if it doesn't go well, then in 10 years when the DNA can be tested or the body is found and the DNA is tested and it matches, then you should be able to fucking retry them.

I disagree.

I know.

Punch me in the face.

You'll see.

That'll prove it.

Yeah.

All right.

Forensic scientists out there, keep doing what you're doing.

Angels.

Shout out.

Tell us things that we do.

Yeah, we don't know what the fuck we're talking about.

It sounds cool, though.

Ours are all just feelings.

So many feelings.

Do you want to say a good thing from your week?

Do I have one?

Do I have a good thing from my week?

What do you have?

That's like when you're trying to order in a restaurant.

It's like, no, you can go ahead.

You go first.

You go ahead.

You go first.

Okay, tune them out.

Tunamel's pretty good.

God.

Well, you know, we last night, Alison Nagasu and I went and saw the movie Delicatessen, which is.

Oh, that's a good movie.

It's It's from like the late 80s, I think, or the early 90s.

Oh, that's a fucking arthouse film.

It's a total arthouse film, and we saw it at Cine Family.

I guess Cine Family would be my thing of the week because

it makes me feel smart to go there.

And like a film person,

I'm into Thelum.

And,

but then also, they have just amazing movies where when you're sitting there, you go, oh, that's why you have to see these movies on the big screen.

Yeah.

And Delicatessen was like the greatest.

That's great.

I guess, well, last week was Thanksgiving.

And I guess just

my family and I had the like lamest, best Thanksgiving.

And it was awesome and so stupid and not fake.

And my like year-old nephew is there.

And he's the best fucking thing I've ever seen in my life.

Kids are the greatest.

Oh, he's an angel baby.

As is my six-year-old nephew, but you know, he's not a baby.

No, he's moved into a different area.

Yeah, but he's great too.

So I guess nephews.

Okay.

Nephews.

Nice.

Yeah.

All right, well,

rate, review, subscribe.

Yeah, please.

I mean, we're not, that's not just fucking lip service.

Please actually do that.

That's not our lip service to you, uh, fake asking.

We're genuinely, yeah.

If you don't mind, that'd be great.

Um, and just and just stay sexy and don't get murdered.

Goodbye, Elvis.

You want a cookie?

Oh,

you want a cookie?

He was sleeping.

Okay, bye.

Bye.

good boy

and we are back

that story is like the definition of the line don't worry it gets worse yes you literally said it during the episode and it is like it starts terrible and just devolves from there it does it's one of those frustrating ones where you're like I'm not totally sure what happened because everything is so convoluted and it didn't have to be that way.

Yeah.

But it is.

Any updates on this?

Yeah, there are some random facts that I want to update everyone on.

And this one for condoms and rape case investigations on that topic.

The criminal justice system began widely acknowledging that some rapists use condoms during their attacks in the 1990s.

They acknowledged that as forensic science evolved and more cases highlighted this tactic.

But before the 1990s, the absence of semen sometimes led investigators to doubt whether an assault had even occurred, which we argue about in this case,

or assume the attacker failed to ejaculate, which is just a wild assumption either way that should not be made

at all.

No.

And then as far as the statute of limitations goes on rapes, several U.S.

states have eliminated the statute of limitations for rape and other felony sex crimes.

Thank fucking God.

Like that needs to be worldwide.

And the list is ever-changing.

So check out rain.org for a complete state-by-state guide.

And as part of the Justice for All Act of 2004, federal crimes like rape on federal land or military bases, there's no limitation if DNA evidence is involved.

So that's a nice update.

Yeah, that's good.

So regarding the case with updates, Timothy Henness continues to sit on death row.

His lawyers have filed appeals challenging the Army's jurisdiction and citing constitutional double jeopardy prohibitions.

They also filed a writ for certiorari with the U.S.

Supreme Court, but as of 2021, all of these have been denied.

Okay.

Well, let's talk about our favorite part of this episode, which is truly the name Funky Diva, the store of Funky Diva, the history with Funky Diva, George's life at Funky Diva, perhaps our sliding doors moment where we were both at Funky Diva at the same time.

That's right.

I believe that happened.

I believe it's real.

I bet it did.

For sure.

Red string theory of like, you're over here with your choker trying to ring some people up.

I'm over there looking at ringer t-shirts and trying to figure out a new joke for my set.

That definitely happened.

Right.

So it should be named Funky Diva, but let's say we were going to change the name today to name it something

updated, maybe the wrong PCAST.

We could call it.

The funniest thing of me loving it and then you going like, it's Vince's.

Like admitting it immediately is the funniest because that's the funniest jokes that I ever say are always just my friends saying that I heard them say.

It's so which I feel so guilty.

I can't do it.

I mean, I love that you called yourself out, but it's so hilarious because it's like something as simple as PCAST.

You're like, no, Vince, Vince made that up.

I can't.

Yeah.

Of course, we could also name it Orange Junco Jeans, or if you want to, Orange Junko Jeans.

It has to be incorrect.

No, it has to be incorrect.

That's how I like it.

And then my question to you always, how about we could call it, is it British?

And the answer is always yes.

Capital yes.

Always yes.

That was a great episode.

Yeah, you guys, thanks for listening to, again, thanks for listening a second time, maybe, to this episode and the first time to this episode of Rewind.

Reanalysis, just really getting in there and taking a fine-tooth comb to this podcast.

What a great celebration of our work.

What could go wrong?

Stay sexy.

Don't get murdered.

Goodbye.

Elvis, do you want a cookie?

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Goodbye.