473 - Parker Posey

Transcript

Speaker 1 This is exactly right.

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Good. Bye-bye.

Speaker 2 Hello.

Speaker 2 And welcome to my favorite murder.

Speaker 1 That's Georgia Hardstar.

Speaker 2 That's Karen Kilgariff.

Speaker 1 And we're trapped in a seventh grade in 1974.

Speaker 2 I have an itch on my nose immediately. Why? I was in an MRI the other day for my tits.
Immediately got a fucking itch on my nose as soon as I was in it. Yes, of course.

Speaker 1 That's your system going. Do not submit to the laws.

Speaker 2 Think of something else. Think of something else.
MRI. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Those things are the worst.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 I absolutely got out of the first one I had to go into.

Speaker 2 You got out? Oh, you eat claustrophobic. Oh, yeah.

Speaker 1 No one warned me about anything that is involved in going through that.

Speaker 2 Oh, shit.

Speaker 1 So the loud noises and the thing.

Speaker 2 Sit still.

Speaker 1 All of it, you have to be, do not move. And mine was for my brain, so I had to be real still.
Oh, my God. And then it's like clank, clonk, nuclear war.

Speaker 2 It's so loud and scary and weird. It's so scary.

Speaker 1 And then someone was like, you didn't take a volume.

Speaker 2 And I was like, no one offered. No one offered.
I kind of find it relaxing, to be honest with you. To be in there? Yeah.

Speaker 1 Do you mean kind of like how a baby likes being wrapped up like a burrito, maybe?

Speaker 2 Yeah, it's like I can't listen to a book. I can't do anything but listen to the clanging.
The clanging starts to sound like music at some point.

Speaker 1 Wait, how many times have you been in an MRI machine?

Speaker 2 Weirdly, quite a few.

Speaker 2 Weirdly. Over 10? No, no, no, no.
Like under five. Okay.
Maybe four. Okay.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 And I don't mind it, but yes, you can't be claustrophobic.

Speaker 1 I think they should walk you through the vibe before you get in there.

Speaker 2 Definitely.

Speaker 1 It's going to sound like the building is starting to burn down around you. Yeah.
That's just the way the machine works.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2 What's going on with you?

Speaker 1 Less MRI stuff.

Speaker 1 So we tried to talk about this last week, but the episode last week, there was so much actual in-episode conversation that we ended up recording for two hours and 20 minutes and having to cut it down to that episode last week.

Speaker 1 So we got rid of a bunch of TV, just chit-chat at the top of just shows we were watching. Yeah.

Speaker 1 So for me, the thing that should live to this week, which lots of people are talking about now, is the... Netflix show adolescence.

Speaker 2 Oh my God.

Speaker 1 Which is simply, truly one of the best things I've seen in a long time on TV.

Speaker 2 Oh, it's so hard to watch. It's so hard to watch.
And I don't have children. I can't imagine what it's like watching the children.
Horrible.

Speaker 1 But also the whole thing of like, they're doing episodes in one continuous shot. They're doing, it's like they're tackling massive like social issues of the day, global social issues.

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 1 All in one shot, kind of like a play. Leave it to the British once again to just be nailing

Speaker 1 like a six-part series.

Speaker 2 I can't get past the one-shot thing because I just keep thinking about what if you're the one extra or the one rando who just fucks up and they have to start from the beginning of the show.

Speaker 2 I just, it stresses me out more. And so I can't really pay attention as much.

Speaker 1 They've got to have like outs. They've got to have like a little kind of like cuts and clips and ways to fix things.

Speaker 1 But and I also think it's because Stephen Graham is the actor that plays the dad, but he also wrote it with his writing partner. So as an actor, I feel like when they were making those plans,

Speaker 1 he was probably thinking of all of those extra true teenagers that they're getting to, you know, 50 at a time to act in these scenes. Like they must have planned for that in some way.

Speaker 2 Yeah, there's got to be. Yeah.
Cause like one kid looks at the fucking camera and the shot's ruined. Yes.
Right. So maybe they have multiple cameras going at the, I don't know.

Speaker 1 Yeah, they must have a backup plan, but also there is now everything's going around on social media.

Speaker 1 So there's this amazing clip of the boy who is the star, who's never done anything before and is incredible. Can't remember his name.

Speaker 1 And then the woman he's in a scene with, I believe her name's Erin O'Connor because she's from another show that I wanted to recommend from before.

Speaker 1 And it's the same team. as the people in adolescence, except for it's a Victorian boxer female bandit series called Swinging Away or something like that.
It's great.

Speaker 1 But anyway, they talk about how this boy accidentally yawned in their scene that's super intense. And it's like the psychologist and the boy kind of arguing.

Speaker 1 And at one point, he kind of just like loses himself or whatever. And he tells the story.
He's like, he yawns, and she just improvises, Am I boring you?

Speaker 2 Wow.

Speaker 1 And they get, they just like stay right into it. So there's like real theatrical training.
Yeah. This is the Brits.
Yeah. This is what they have over us, which is they respect acting.

Speaker 2 Yeah, but you know what they don't have? What? Parker posy.

Speaker 2 And that is my thank you, Jesus, TV show moment right now.

Speaker 2 No,

Speaker 2 no, TM.

Speaker 2 Nobody wants to live in Thailand.

Speaker 2 I want.

Speaker 2 Sorry.

Speaker 2 We were so bummed when we found out Jennifer Coolidge wasn't going to be back for this season.

Speaker 2 But the only person that could, that Mike White could have replaced her with, that I'm not mad about, I didn't know until I saw her, was Parker Posey. Parker.
Caperna.

Speaker 2 Where's Larazapam? No.

Speaker 1 Now I have to drink myself to sleep. It's like so satisfying to walk around my house talking to the dogs in the Parker Posey voice.
It is so.

Speaker 1 And also, who deserves the star turned on White Lotus Season 3 more than Parker Posey? Yeah. True.
I almost said more than Paper.

Speaker 2 Paper.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it's incredible. I love it.
Thank you, Mike White, for bringing her to our shores. I don't know.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Thank you, Mike White, for highlighting the super talented women of Hollywood in the way only you can.
Yeah, truly. So great.

Speaker 2 Since we're doing this in one take, should we

Speaker 1 not mess up? Should we

Speaker 2 keep on going? Actually, I yawn sometimes when I'm stressed out. So like, I thought it's kind of brilliant too, that they kept it.
Cause it makes sense.

Speaker 1 Completely. Or like he's posing like, I'm bored.
Right. And then it's like, yeah, you've seen kids do stuff like that, especially when they're in trouble.

Speaker 2 They're fucking brats.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 2 Murder. Hey, we have a podcast network called Exactly Right Media.
Here are some highlights. That's right.

Speaker 2 Oh, that's me. Okay.

Speaker 2 Breaking news, guys. It's finally here.
The Knife, a true crime podcast, premieres today on the Exactly Right Network. Woo, woo, woo.
Yay, our newest podcast. Please go follow the knife.

Speaker 2 Host Hannah Smith and Patia Eaton bring you the untold stories of people whose lives have been forever changed by crime.

Speaker 2 This is about survivors, about the people we always talk about who are left behind, you know, trying to deal with their new reality. Yes.
Post-crime. And they do it so beautifully.

Speaker 1 If you like the opportunist, then the knife is going to be your favorite new true crime podcast.

Speaker 1 Hannah and Pesha pitched this idea to us and we were just like, of course, we would do anything to work with you guys. We've been talking it up.
We've been building it up.

Speaker 1 And the day is finally here and we're so excited. So when you're done listening to us on this episode, please go over to the Knives feed, listen to episode one, rate, review, like, follow.

Speaker 1 Please do everything you can to support this show. We love it.
We know you're going to love it too.

Speaker 2 Yeah, for sure. So, then on Buried Bones, Kate and Paul start a two-part series on the Wolf family murders.

Speaker 2 What starts as a normal day in a quiet North Dakota farming community in 1920 takes a dark turn when a neighbor discovers farmer Jacob Wolfe, five of his children, and a hired hand all brutally murdered.

Speaker 2 So, you have to listen as Kate Winkler-Dawson and Paul Holz try to crack this 105-year-old cold case.

Speaker 1 If anyone can do it, they can do it. Absolutely.
I'm so excited to listen to that series. Yeah.
Sounds amazing.

Speaker 1 Then over on Do You Need a Ride, Chris and Karen welcome the very hilarious John Milstein to discuss extreme skateboarding tricks that I like to practice outside of Costco at round seven in the morning with my skateboarding buddies.

Speaker 1 If you haven't seen John Milstein's videos, he posts the most hilarious videos where he puts on like the same outfit that people at Staples wear to work and then he walks up and down the aisles talking about how we all have to go to Staples and take over and like literally is just walking around a real Staples

Speaker 1 pretending to incite revolution or whatever.

Speaker 1 He did a thing where he set up, he set up a little thing in the park and he put about like maybe 10 or 15 chairs out and then he put up a picture, a very large printout of a picture of his mother and then began to give a speech about how much he loved his mother.

Speaker 1 And people came and sat down and watched him do it. Like he just is very inventive and very, very hilarious comedian.

Speaker 2 I love it. And also, we want to wish Bridger Weiniger a happy fifth anniversary of I Said No Gifts.
I can't believe it's five years. Isn't that crazy?

Speaker 2 The hilarious Chris Fleming joins him to celebrate with a two-hour podcasting extravaganza filled with betrayal, chaos, and some special surprises. And I bet there's a gift for him.

Speaker 1 I bet there's a gift that he gets upset about. I bet.
But I don't know. So you can listen to that today.

Speaker 1 Then next week, you can can go to our YouTube channel and you can watch the entire episode on video because it's over in the video studio. It was a big deal.
Gotta love Chris Fleming.

Speaker 1 So go over to youtube.com/slash exactly right media to watch that.

Speaker 2 There's so many videos over there. You guys check it out.

Speaker 2 And finally, in merch news, our super popular, always sold out still life crew neck that Karen is holding up, which you can watch if you're looking at our YouTube page right now. It's back in stock.

Speaker 2 Got to get there before it's gone. So go to exactlyrightstore.com and get it before it's gone again.
This is like a really popular print. It's so gothy.
I love it so much. It's great.

Speaker 2 Get it before it's sold out.

Speaker 1 Also, you can get the fuck UI Mary joggers. They're restocked now.
They're hospital on the outside, but they are so soft and cozy on the inside. And then if you wear those two items together,

Speaker 1 this sweatshirt and then some fuck you I Mary joggers, men are legally not allowed to come within 10 feet of you. That's so true.
That's our guarantee to you. I love it.

Speaker 2 I walk cookie in my fuck you I'm married joggers and nobody approaches me. It's great.

Speaker 1 I should put on the fuck you I'm divorced joggers and see if anyone approaches me. They will.

Speaker 1 I said. Like the offices.

Speaker 2 Hey, can I? Hey.

Speaker 1 So whether you're buying tickets to an improv show or a whodunit board game, PayPal helps you make the most of your money this holiday.

Speaker 1 Learn more at paypal.com slash payin4, PayPal Inc., NMLS 910457.

Hey guys, did you know that you can order from the Home Depot on Uber Eats?

Right now, you can get $30 $30 off $70 or more when you order from the Home Depot on Uber Eats. Use code Depot 30.

Speaker 2 So stock up on DIY essentials, holiday decor, small appliances, or household must-haves like cleaning supplies and trash bags, all without leaving your project behind.

Speaker 2 Ends December 31st. Exclusions may apply.
Terms and minimum order apply. See at for details.
Goodbye. Don't miss Netflix's new series, The Beast in Me.

Speaker 1 It's a riveting psychological thriller from the team that brought you homeland.

Speaker 2 The Beast in Me follows acclaimed author Aggie Wiggs, played by Claire Daines, who has withdrawn from public life after the tragic death of her young son.

Speaker 1 She's unable to write and is a ghost of her former self. But Aggie finds an unlikely subject for a new book when the house next door is bought by Niall Jarvis, played by Matthew Reese.

Speaker 2 Niall is a famed real estate mogul who was once the prime suspect in his wife's disappearance.

Speaker 1 Horrified and fascinated by this man, Aggie finds herself compulsively hunting for the truth, chasing his demons while fleeing her own.

Speaker 2 It's a game of cat and mouse that sets them on a collision course with fatal consequences.

Speaker 1 The Beast and Me now playing only on Netflix.

Speaker 2 You will not want to miss this. Goodbye.
Goodbye.

Speaker 1 Am I about to tell you a story?

Speaker 2 You are. Okay.

Speaker 1 Do you have have all your beverages? Do you have at least two?

Speaker 2 I have at least two beverages. I'm taking my shoes off, actually, under the

Speaker 2 got to get those foot listeners.

Speaker 1 Okay, here's a great email that Marin found just to kick this off. So it's a letter from a listener.

Speaker 1 It says, greetings, Team MFM, longtime murderino and now author of The Devil Went Down to Georgia, which was excerted, excerpted, in People.

Speaker 1 It's spelled excerpted, but I think it's pronounced excerpted.

Speaker 1 Just landed on Oprah's Daily's Daily's list of best true crime books

Speaker 1 of all time. And then in parentheses, it says gulp.
It's one of the very few books about a murdered black woman, and the story is incredible.

Speaker 1 They go on to explain the story. I will not do that now.

Speaker 1 And then it says, I first wrote about the story as a writer for Atlanta magazine and have now revisited it, looking at it through the lenses we peer through today.

Speaker 1 The power dynamics between men and women, domestic abuse, racial and economic disparities in the justice system, systemic racism, and how we continue to give rich white guys the benefit of the doubt.

Speaker 2 Wow.

Speaker 1 I truly believe this one will resonate with your audience. Please let me know if you're interested in covering, and I'll send over a book.
Thanks, Deb.

Speaker 2 Deb, like the author of this book, sent us an email. Yes.
Oh my God.

Speaker 1 Just to say, hey, you might want to think about doing my story.

Speaker 2 The Devil Went Down to Georgia is.

Speaker 1 The Devil Went Down to Georgia is the name of the book. Maren read that book without finding this letter and she noted that it was an amazing read.
She loved reading it.

Speaker 1 this is a researcher who has to read a lot of books so when researchers say i loved the book that's really very meaningful what's the author's full name deb her name is deb miller landau and the devil went down to georgia is the basically the primary source used in today's story but let me intro it for you okay it was just we were all very excited that there was actually that letter waiting for us from oh who knows 2017 who knows when she sent it yeah so this story starts it's january 16th, 1987, a cold overcast winter morning in Atlanta, Georgia, and Lita McClinton is at home in her townhouse in the affluent Buckhead neighborhood.

Speaker 1 Now, this is sometimes referred to as the Beverly Hills of the South. Famous residents like Tyler Perry, Robert Downey Jr., Elton John have all lived there at some point.
And Lita has a big day ahead.

Speaker 1 for her that morning. It was just her 35th birthday, a couple days before.
But today she has an important court date.

Speaker 1 A judge will be deciding how she and her estranged husband of 10 years assets are going to be divided once their divorce is finalized.

Speaker 1 So essentially, today is kind of the first day of the rest of her life. You know, she's like finally out of this marriage.
Her best friend, Poppy, has come to visit.

Speaker 1 Poppy brought her three-year-old daughter because Poppy wanted to be there with Lita on this day and kind of go through it with her, make sure she was okay.

Speaker 1 It's kind of such a potentially stressful day. Yeah.

Speaker 1 But Lita isn't expecting anybody else at the house. So when the doorbell rings at 8.15 a.m., she has no idea who it could be.

Speaker 1 She puts her robe on, she goes downstairs, she looks through the peephole, and she sees it's a flower delivery man. And so she opens the door and says, good morning.

Speaker 1 He's holding a big box of long stem roses that are wrapped in a big pink ribbon. She thinks maybe they could be a belated birthday gift from a friend.
So she does not see it coming.

Speaker 2 Yeah, that's such a good ruse because it's not like I didn't order anything from wherever the person's from, but it's like someone random sent you flowers. Yes.

Speaker 2 It's totally an anonymous thing you could get away with for opening, getting someone to open a door.

Speaker 1 Absolutely. I mean, we've seen it in a lot of movies.
Yeah. And it's the kind of thing where, especially at this point in her life, it was the perfect ruse.

Speaker 1 But instead of delivering flowers, this delivery man pulls out a gun, pulls the trigger twice. The first shot misses her.
The second shot hits Lita in the head. And within minutes, she's dead.

Speaker 1 These are the first moments of a tragic convoluted homicide case that takes investigators from Georgia to Florida to North Carolina and then all the way to Thailand and back.

Speaker 1 This is the story of the murder of Lita McClinton. And so we already said it, but Deb Miller-Landau, Murderino, wrote the book, The Devil Went Down to Georgia, about this case.

Speaker 1 And Marin also used an episode of 2020 as a source. And that episode was entitled, A Puzzling Murder.
And the rest of the sources are in our show notes if you want to go see those.

Speaker 1 Okay, so let's talk about Lita McClinton.

Speaker 1 She's a black woman and an Atlanta native, and her parents, Emery and Joanne McClinton, are wealthy, well-connected public servants with long and impressive careers.

Speaker 1 Lita's father holds a high-ranking post with the U.S. Department of Transportation, and her mother will be elected to the Georgia State Legislature.
Wow. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Back in the 60s, Joanne campaigned and organized with Martin Luther King Jr.

Speaker 1 She later served as the campaign manager for Atlanta's first black mayor, who was also the first black mayor of any major southern city, Maynard Jackson. Okay.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 And as a local reporter named Mark Winney says, quote, Lita was a true daughter of Atlanta. So unsurprisingly, given their stature, Emery and Joanne have big expectations for their daughter, Lita.

Speaker 1 She's educated in private schools. She participates in debutante and cotillion balls.

Speaker 1 She eventually graduates from college with a political science degree, and she has an exceptionally bright future ahead of her.

Speaker 1 But in 1976, Lita starts dating a man named Jim Sullivan, and her parents, to say the least, are not thrilled.

Speaker 1 So when Jim and Lita meet, Lita's in her early 20s, and she's an assistant manager at a high-end Atlanta boutique.

Speaker 1 So it's like she's just out of college, essentially, trying to get on her feet and get a career going for herself. Like, it's the, what am I going to do with my degree kind of days of her life?

Speaker 2 I need a job. So this one

Speaker 1 kind of a thing. I can get this done.
Yeah. One afternoon, Jim, who's in his late 30s, walks into that shop and is taken aback by Lita's beauty, style, and charm.
The problem is Jim isn't southern.

Speaker 1 He's from a white working class family.

Speaker 1 He's 10 years older than Lita. And on the surface, the only thing they really have in common is they were both raised Catholic.

Speaker 1 Jim is not the man that Lita's parents would have picked for her, but he showers her with attention, affection, and gifts, something that Deb Miller-Landau will later liken to love bombing.

Speaker 2 Oh, yeah.

Speaker 1 Of course. And even though Jim Sullivan doesn't come from much, he is ambitious.
He's dreamed of being rich since he was a boy, and he does have some money to his name.

Speaker 1 He earned himself an economics degree in college. He finds work as an accountant.
And then he settles into a comfortable life with a wife and four children in Massachusetts. Oh, shit.

Speaker 1 So that's the beginning of his life way back when he got out of college. But Jim is the kind of man who always wants more.

Speaker 1 So when one of his uncles, a man named Frank Beinert, who owns a successful beverage company in Macon, Georgia, starts thinking about retiring, he doesn't have, Uncle Frank doesn't have any children to take over the business.

Speaker 1 Frank knows how ambitious and business savvy Jim is. And so he takes his nephew under his wing to teach him the ropes and take over the company.

Speaker 1 So Jim and his family move down to Macon, but immediately there's an issue in that it's just basically Jim rubs people the wrong way, including his uncle's business associates.

Speaker 1 Jim is arrogant, he's stubborn, and as Deb Miller-Landau writes, quote, nothing rubs southerners raw than unchecked superiority, especially from a northerner.

Speaker 2 Sure.

Speaker 1 So the relationship between Jim and his uncle Frank sours within a year. Yikes.
This is that kind of personality that's like, oh, you immediately got there and started making enemies.

Speaker 2 super cocky and just like yeah

Speaker 1 it gets so fraught at one point that frank starts to rethink the succession plan without jim

Speaker 1 but before he can make that change frank beiner suddenly dies of cardiac arrest

Speaker 1 since his succession plans were not officially amended jim ends up inheriting his uncle's 3.2 million dollar beverage business

Speaker 1 so this is the late 80s oh man what do you think it's worth in today's money 22 i'm gonna say 15. 16.

Speaker 2 Whoa.

Speaker 2 Yeah. A lot of money.
Inflation.

Speaker 2 Baby.

Speaker 1 So, not long after Jim's marriage falls apart, his wife divorces him, takes their kids back up north, and her parting words reportedly are: quote, I will curse you with my dying breath.

Speaker 2 Wrong island.

Speaker 2 Shit. Okay.

Speaker 2 You're thinking of Galapagos. Oh, yeah.

Speaker 1 Her parting words are: money doesn't make you happy.

Speaker 1 Jim responds by signing away full custody of his four children, and he basically exits their lives and does not come back.

Speaker 2 Wow. Okay.

Speaker 1 So now it's 1976. Oh, sorry.
That wasn't the late 80s. It was the mid-70s.
So that's why I got it wrong.

Speaker 2 That's right. If that had told me the right year, I would have got it 16.
16? I thought it was. I thoroughly apologize.

Speaker 1 So now it's 1976.

Speaker 1 Jim meets Lita in the upscale boutique. Their relationship blossoms.
He tells her all about how he's inherited his late Uncle Frank's business.

Speaker 1 And just a few months after they meet, the two become engaged.

Speaker 2 He must have been so charming if he could sweep her off her feet because she's no dummy. Right.

Speaker 1 Yes. And she's grown up in like Atlanta society.
Totally.

Speaker 2 She's this bright future.

Speaker 1 She's met charming men before. Yeah.
Not new.

Speaker 1 Yeah. He must have been real good at it.
Yeah. Here's how good he is at it.
He never mentions to Lita that he's been married and that he has four children.

Speaker 2 Okay. Just a little piece of info you're going to wanna share.

Speaker 1 Just not him. He doesn't mention it.
Lita's parents, Emery and Joanne, are devastated when they learn about this engagement.

Speaker 1 They tried to give Jim the benefit of the doubt, but they just can't stand him. It's that simple.

Speaker 1 And they're mostly troubled by Jim's cockiness and his disrespect and the way he always deflects when people ask him about his background.

Speaker 1 I always think that's so funny. It's like people do that all the time where it's like, oh, you know, just this and that.

Speaker 1 It's like, sorry, you don't think that people who want to know certain information about you aren't going to see that as exactly what it is.

Speaker 2 Right. And then, as to people who are like, Let me tell you my whole backstory, even though we just met in the bathroom line.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 Let me tell you every single fucking thing that's ever happened to me in my life. I can't imagine deflecting and being like, I don't know what happened to me when I was a kid.

Speaker 1 I just know it wouldn't work.

Speaker 2 Let me get my notes out. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Exactly.

Speaker 1 And it's like, well, I, you're a stranger.

Speaker 2 I owe you this full explanation. I saw a thing that was like, it was a meme that said, I don't overshare to get closer to you.
I overshare because my personality needs context.

Speaker 2 I was just like,

Speaker 2 yes.

Speaker 2 You don't know why I'm the way I am. I'm personally wanting to like me.

Speaker 1 And also, you have free reign and will to not like me.

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 1 But there's a reason I'm like this entire.

Speaker 2 It takes context to like me.

Speaker 2 That's like, that hit me. But also, that's our idea.

Speaker 1 Yeah. That's also old kind of trauma thinking.
Totally.

Speaker 2 Which is like, there's a lot of people who are like, I just like your shirt.

Speaker 1 I like you automatically. And we're like, I know you don't like me.

Speaker 2 Let me just tell you really quick.

Speaker 1 You know, who's not doing stuff like that? Jim Sullivan and his type, who are like, you will like me. Right.
And I'll sue you if you don't.

Speaker 1 So Emery and Joanne desperately want their daughter to get away from this guy.

Speaker 1 But of course, instead, Lita just falls deeper in love.

Speaker 1 So on the night before Lita and Jim's wedding, he drops a bombshell on her. He finally comes clean about his ex-wife and his four kids.

Speaker 1 And then immediately he pulls out a prenup and urges her to sign it. Wow.
And also, here's where I think that age difference really comes into play.

Speaker 1 And this is the kind of age difference thing that like a lot of people never talk about, but it's like undue influence over people who have not been in the world very much is a big part of why that is those kinds of that age difference

Speaker 2 is a problem. It totally is.
Like the difference between you at 20 something and you at late 30s is you're a whole different person. Yeah.

Speaker 1 And somebody who you think he hung the moon. Right.

Speaker 1 And the night before,

Speaker 1 you're locking, all your dreams are coming true. He's like, except for that if you don't sign this, we're not doing it.

Speaker 2 Because he knew that if he told her a couple weeks before, she'd have time to stink it through. Oh my God, it's fucked up.

Speaker 1 Maybe even call the ex and see

Speaker 1 how he was as a husband.

Speaker 1 So Lita, of course, is shell-shocked by the flood of information. And Deb Miller-Landau writes in her book, quote, the guests are coming.
Everything is set. There's simply no backing out now.
No.

Speaker 1 She's dizzy in love, naive, and desperate to just get on with their life together.

Speaker 2 Because it'd be on her if she had to cancel the wedding at that. You know what I mean? Like people would be like, why are you canceling? Not him.
Yes. And she's so fucked up.
I don't, yeah.

Speaker 1 The agreement where it's like, we're going to share our lives together.

Speaker 1 If that's the plan, then you have to say, we're going to share our lives together, but you won't be getting any of this money that I kind of throw around that I use to lure you into this relationship.

Speaker 2 Right, right. Like there's a clause and a contract to our love.

Speaker 1 No one's anti-prenup.

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 1 It's just you. You can't talk about it the night before.

Speaker 2 No. And yeah, you can't.
It's just that. That's right.

Speaker 1 It has to kind of be the understanding of like the, it's a mutual agreement.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Vincent, I don't have one, just in case anyone's thinking that I'm trying to.

Speaker 1 Oh, I'll call him on the phone on my drive home from this recording. We'll just see.
Okay. Don't worry, listener.
I'll get to the bottom of George's.

Speaker 2 The prenup is that he can't talk about his prenup.

Speaker 1 So Lita's forced to sign the document. The next day she marries Jim.
Her mom Joanne will later call their wedding, quote, the worst day of my life.

Speaker 2 Oh God. Yeah.

Speaker 1 So Lita and Jim settle into a huge house in Macon, Georgia, near the beverage company. They're now living in a well-to-do, tight-knit community, far removed from the sprawling metropolis of Atlanta.

Speaker 1 And at this time, interracial couples are rare in the South.

Speaker 1 Georgia had only recently repealed laws criminalizing marriages between black and white people. Jesus.
Only recently, because it's the, at this point, the late 70s.

Speaker 2 So like

Speaker 1 sickening. So even in the big city, their relationship drew attention, but now that they're in Macon, the judgment around their relationship is even more acutely felt.

Speaker 1 But while Jim, as a white male owner of a multi-million dollar business, inherently has power, Lita feels very alone in this upper crust, very white Macon community.

Speaker 1 And then Jim discourages her from working, so she's isolated even further.

Speaker 1 But she takes action. She manages to become very active and influential in Macon's charities and organizations.
Nice.

Speaker 1 And in 1979, she ends up mentoring the first black Miss Macon, a woman named Yvette Miller. So she starts getting involved in her community.

Speaker 2 You got to have those work girlfriends. It's like vital, whether or not it's like a job or, you know,

Speaker 2 charitable work.

Speaker 1 You've got to have those girlfriends. And your own kind of life.

Speaker 1 I mean, I think that is the thing that women have really come to terms with these days yeah it's like you have to build an interior life and an exterior life no matter what your situation is totally problem is though in this situation behind closed doors the sullivans relationship is unraveling jim's behavior has become very odd with this kind of huge influx of money and business and everything.

Speaker 1 For example, he starts wearing his dead uncle's clothes, including his underwear.

Speaker 2 What?

Speaker 1 While at home.

Speaker 1 But then when he goes out in public, he changes into the expensive outfits that kind of fit the occasion that's creepy it's insane he also becomes so obsessed with saving money listen to this no he makes her use the plastic covering that comes with their dry cleaning to wrap leftovers so they don't have to buy saran wrap oh my god first of all the microplastics and toxins that are in like that's the first thing insane secondly what the fuck yeah he clearly it isn't helping him to have all this money it isn't benefit His life isn't becoming richer.

Speaker 2 His ex-wife was right. Yes.

Speaker 1 You're going to be unhappy. Wow.

Speaker 1 So that's just a little example of the kind of Howard Hughes stuff he was starting to pull.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Deb Miller-Landau reports, Jim gives Lita a very tight weekly allowance of $150 a week. And that's worth around $700 a week today.
Okay.

Speaker 1 which might sound like a lot, except Lida has to buy everything for the household from groceries to dog food to gas for the cars

Speaker 1 and everything that in terms of entertaining other wealthy people. So they have dinner parties.

Speaker 1 She has to have the house looking beautiful and immaculate with all the best furniture and all the best dishware.

Speaker 2 Exactly. Fuck that.

Speaker 1 It all comes out of that allowance. Also her hair and nail appointments and her clothes.
She can look together and play the part.

Speaker 1 Jim's so restrictive with their finances, Lita struggles to pay for meals while she's on lunch dates, even though they're millionaires.

Speaker 1 Then the inevitable, Lita begins to suspect that Jim is having affairs. She finds a blonde hair in their bathroom.

Speaker 1 Then a Christmas card addressed to Jim arrives at their house, but inside is a lot of stuff about missing all of your kisses. It's specifically written to him.

Speaker 1 Then the inside is as if he lives by himself.

Speaker 1 So Lita reaches out to the woman who sends that card and she basically confirms her husband's infidelity.

Speaker 1 But Jim not only sweet talks his way out of any consequences with Lita, but he begins to shower her with lavish gifts and a bigger weekly allowance.

Speaker 1 So essentially she's kind of gaslit into forgetting about these indiscretions.

Speaker 1 And then about 10 years into their marriage, Jim abruptly announces he's selling the beverage company and that they're going to move to Palm Beach, Florida. And Lita clearly has no say in the matter.

Speaker 1 They move into a massive 17,000 square foot mansion in a community that's even wealthier and whiter than the one they just lived in.

Speaker 1 And for perspective, this new house that he buys is just down the street from Mar-a-Lago.

Speaker 2 Oh, shit.

Speaker 1 So it's in the heart of that.

Speaker 1 So Jim sets out to woo the Palm Beach crowd. He wants to be one of them, one of the players, but he soon realizes having a black wife will not be advantageous for him in that crowd.

Speaker 1 In fact, he comes to understand Lita is simply not welcome in certain circles.

Speaker 2 We call those circles racist circles.

Speaker 1 So true to his ambitious form, Jim just starts leaving Lita at home.

Speaker 1 And it's around that same time he begins an affair with a local socialite named Suki Rogers.

Speaker 1 When Lita finds another woman's underwear in their bed, this is Deb Miller-Landau refers to it as, quote, the bra that broke the camel's back.

Speaker 1 So Lita packs her bags, heads back to the townhouse that they used to live in in Atlanta, and she files for divorce.

Speaker 1 After years of enduring her husband's callous, controlling behavior, Lita's finally breaking free from him.

Speaker 1 But now she faces the grim reality that because she abandoned her career, or the beginnings of a career, and she signed that prenup, that she basically might leave this awful marriage without a penny.

Speaker 1 So she decides she's going to sue Jim for divorce and fight for, you know, what she rightfully deserves.

Speaker 1 So this brings us back to that winter morning in 1987 when Lita is getting ready for that morning in divorce court. The doorbell rings.
She opens the door to a flower delivery man. She greets him.

Speaker 1 He pulls a gun, shoots once and misses, shoots again and hits her in the head.

Speaker 1 And then he runs. Upstairs, Lita's friend Poppy and Poppy's toddler hear those gunshots and they run and hide in a closet.
They don't know what's going on.

Speaker 1 When Lita's neighbors hear the noise, they look outside and they see a white middle-aged man running down the street. So the police are called and they arrive on scene almost immediately.

Speaker 1 And although Lita is taken to the hospital, she's declared dead. They believe she died minutes after the gunshot wound.
She's only 35 years old.

Speaker 1 And we'll learn later that on the same day, Jim will write in his diary, quote, Suki and I celebrate with champagne and caviar.

Speaker 2 Celebrate what? He doesn't say.

Speaker 2 Okay, you fucking idiot.

Speaker 1 So from the moment they hear the news, Lita's parents are absolutely convinced Jim Sullivan killed their daughter. Of course.

Speaker 1 Not only were Lita and Jim in the middle of a bitter divorce, but the idea and the fact that she's murdered on the morning of the hearing where they decide how much she's going to get makes it clear that this is just not a coincidence.

Speaker 1 100%. There's no deliberation.
Jim gets everything.

Speaker 1 That's the reason it happened on that day.

Speaker 1 Except Jim does have an alibi, and it's airtight. At the time of Lita's murder, he was in Palm Beach with Suki.

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 1 Okay. But still, the police head to Florida to question him.
They administer a polygraph. He passes it.
But he's still not ruled out.

Speaker 1 They start looking at other potential suspects, including Poppy's husband, a man named Marvin Marable.

Speaker 1 Marvin doesn't like Lita because he thinks she's encouraging Poppy to leave him.

Speaker 1 In fact, in their investigation, police discover that Marvin has bugged their house phone and recorded hundreds of hours of conversations between Lita and Poppy.

Speaker 2 That's a sacred conversation space.

Speaker 1 And then he sends those tapes down to Florida for Jim to listen to, and the two men bond over their shared marital issues.

Speaker 2 Gross.

Speaker 1 So while... Marvin clearly dislikes Lita, there is no solid evidence tying him to this murder, but he does end up getting probation free illegal eavesdropping.

Speaker 1 The good news about those recordings is they provide information, like the fact that Lita, who just for clarity is legally separated at this point, talks to Poppy about the men she's dating.

Speaker 1 So Jim immediately seizes on this and tells investigators one of those men might be Lita's killer. Detectives look into that lead.
Nothing comes of it.

Speaker 1 So time passes. And meanwhile, Jim sells the townhouse Lita was living in, turns a profit of around, in today's money, $375,000.

Speaker 1 And that, with that, cuts his last ties to the McClinton family. Just eight months after Lita's death, Jim Sullivan marries Suki in Palm Beach.

Speaker 1 Back in Georgia, detectives continue to track down Leeds. They're working with three descriptions of different men they believe were all tied to the murder.

Speaker 1 One was provided by Lita's neighbors who saw the man fleeing. They got a very good look at that shooter.
The other two descriptions are from a local florist shop near Lita's townhouse.

Speaker 1 Yeah. So the florist remembers selling roses to a man around 8 a.m.
the morning of Lita's death. Right.

Speaker 1 The florist remembers this customer was strangely ambivalent about what kind of roses he wanted to buy and that he wasn't alone. He pulled up with another man who waited out in the car.

Speaker 1 It was a sales transaction that was bizarre enough that the florist thought these men were going to rob him. Jesus.
So, yeah.

Speaker 1 So, he committed their faces to memory and then called the police and was able to describe them. Yeah.

Speaker 1 So, the sketches of these three men are drawn up based on the descriptions, but investigators don't know who they are. None of them look like Jim Sullivan, though.

Speaker 1 Detectives start wondering if Lita's death could have been a murder for hire, and the evidence starts supporting this idea.

Speaker 1 So, police learned that calls were placed from rest stop payphones and from a Howard Johnson motel near Atlanta to Jim's home in Palm Beach around the time of the murder. Jesus.

Speaker 1 And right. And then they learn some suspicious phone calls Jim made to people in Atlanta around the same time.
One was placed three days before Lita was killed.

Speaker 1 And that same morning, a strange man in a baseball cap banged on Lita's door around 6 a.m.

Speaker 1 She heard it, but it freaked her out so much she didn't answer it. But she called friends to tell them what happened.

Speaker 1 Hours later, around around 8 a.m., Jim calls Marvin Marable, Poppy's husband, and asks for confirmation that Lita still lived in that townhouse.

Speaker 1 Marvin and Poppy were divorced by this point, so Marvin genuinely did not know where Lita was. An hour later at 9 a.m., Jim calls Lita's neighbor, a man named Bob Christensen.

Speaker 1 The two men knew each other as neighbors, but they hadn't spoken in over a year, so Bob was surprised to get this call from Jim.

Speaker 1 Jim claimed that he was checking in on Lita after hearing that there had been some, quote, suspicious activity at the townhouse.

Speaker 1 But technically, he would have no way of knowing that there was any suspicious activity because Lita wasn't in conversation with him.

Speaker 2 I'm sorry, but these people are bad at this.

Speaker 1 Really bad.

Speaker 1 And it's also, it's that kind of late 80s crime where you're just like, oh, this is all so just laying out right there.

Speaker 2 Yeah. It's like it's tragic in its just blatant stupidity.
Yeah. You know,

Speaker 2 it's just so infuriating.

Speaker 1 So infuriating. So none of this looks good for Jim, obviously, but there's still no conclusive proof that he is involved with Lita's death.

Speaker 1 Police are trying to find these three unidentified men for this case, knowing that if they can identify them, they might be able to solve it.

Speaker 1 So detectives zero in on those calls, placed from that Howard Johnson's motel room.

Speaker 1 They learn three men stayed together in that room and arrived in a car with North Carolina plates.

Speaker 1 Then they learned they booked the room under the name Johnny Fur, fur with two Rs.

Speaker 1 So there are around 150 men

Speaker 1 with that name, Johnny Fur, in North Carolina alone. Interesting.

Speaker 1 But at this point, it was being used as an alias because they learned that all the details associated with this motel reservation are fake.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Meanwhile, down in Florida, Jim gets into, and so this is like when these things kind of like, if you're too cocky

Speaker 1 about your

Speaker 1 very overt murder for hire plan,

Speaker 1 things start to come together against you. Right.

Speaker 2 Because you think you're smarter than everyone. So you don't take steps to like not be dumb.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 And listen how dumb this is.

Speaker 1 Jim gets into a fender bender in his Rolls-Royce.

Speaker 1 And even though he's not at fault in this fender bender, the responding officer notices that Jim's driving with an expired registration and on a suspended license because he has 18 traffic violations so they suspended his license so the cop writes jim a ticket again jim is a millionaire he could have just paid the fine and been done with it yeah but instead he goes to traffic court to fight the ticket and he tells the judge that it was actually his wife suki not him who was driving that day and in sworn testimony suki backs Jim's story up.

Speaker 2 Oh, Jesus, honey.

Speaker 1 The judge is so confused by this whole story that he ends up dropping the charges.

Speaker 1 But officials in the courtroom find the exchange so weird, they dig into the police report and they confirm that Jim was in fact driving the car that day.

Speaker 1 So the state of Florida takes both Jim and Suki to court for perjury.

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 1 Which who were those court officials? Like who were the ones that were standing there being like, wait, what's going on here? Yeah. Because crucial, actually, to that.

Speaker 1 Don't lie in court.

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 2 If you can get caught easily.

Speaker 1 You're there to lie to get yourself out of a fee that you deserve to pay. Totally.
And have the money to pay. Totally.
But you're wearing your dead uncle's underwear, so you're not going to pay it.

Speaker 1 Ooh, I forgot about that word.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 1 At this point, Suki and Jim have been married for less than three years, but this incident is the final straw for Suki.

Speaker 1 Not only does she dump Jim, but during their bitter, very public divorce proceedings, Suki shocks everyone by testifying in court that Jim admitted to her that he had Lita murdered.

Speaker 2 Oh, my God.

Speaker 1 So now the FBI is called in. Right.

Speaker 1 There are two big problems. Detectives still can't find the men who are staying at the Howard Johnsons.

Speaker 1 Plus, the statue of limitations for a federal murder for hire case is only five years, so time is about to run out.

Speaker 2 I fucking hate those.

Speaker 1 So in a total Hail Mary move, the U.S.

Speaker 1 attorney files charges against Jim that specifically involve using, quote, interstate commerce facilities, which in this case refers to calling state from Georgia to Florida to carry out a murder for hire.

Speaker 1 The judge dismisses this case over lack of evidence, and Jim is allowed to leave the courtroom a free man that day.

Speaker 1 It's a devastating blow for Emery and Joanne McClinton, who are certain that Jim's just got away with having their daughter murdered.

Speaker 1 So in the early 1990s, they file a wrongful death lawsuit against Jim Sullivan, and that jury rules in their favor.

Speaker 1 Jim is found guilty and is ordered to pay the McClintons $4 million in damages, which is over $11 million in today's money. But because Jim is a trained accountant,

Speaker 1 he manages to hide his assets.

Speaker 1 Then he appeals the ruling and he wins after arguing that the case was filed after the statute of limitations in Florida had already expired, which was only two years for a wrongful death suit.

Speaker 2 Stop it with these statute of limitations. Like, they're just baiting criminals to be better at their fucking crimes.
Yes. It's so ridiculous.

Speaker 1 It's terrible. So it really does seem at this point like Jim Sullivan is about to get away with murder until 1998, more than a decade after Lita's murder.
When a tip rolls in from Beaumont, Texas,

Speaker 1 there, a woman named Belinda works as a receptionist for a local law office, and something's been weighing on her mind very heavily and for a long time.

Speaker 1 Belinda confides to a lawyer at this law firm about her ex-husband from North Carolina, a man named Tony Hardwood.

Speaker 1 I thought the name was Hardwood when I was first reading this, and I'm like, the name is Hardwood.

Speaker 2 Tony Hardwood floors. There's the word hard in her last name.
Oh, I'm not blinking at that. You don't care.
People don't want it to be hardstark. They just don't.

Speaker 2 They'll write anything else because it just doesn't somehow compute in their heads. So I'm not blinking at that.

Speaker 1 But hardstark is like a conceptual name that actually sounds really cool. Hardwood is just a type of floor you're standing on.

Speaker 2 It's jokes, too.

Speaker 1 Tony Linoleum here to testify. Okay, so Belinda says that Tony used to pick up gigs as a mover in some of his work.

Speaker 1 And on one of these jobs, he moved furniture from Georgia to Palm Beach for a rich client who later asked him to carry out a murder for hire.

Speaker 1 Belinda witnessed the rich man giving Tony a big envelope of cash at one point.

Speaker 1 And she says that the rich man was white, his wife lived in Atlanta, and she was black, and that Tony told her he couldn't get the wife to answer her front door.

Speaker 1 So Belinda suggested, because she didn't really understand that her ex-husband was actually acting as a hitman,

Speaker 1 she suggests that he poses as a floral delivery man.

Speaker 1 So she realizes this is all real and is like, oh my God, and that makes me like feels terrible and has to tell this lawyer.

Speaker 1 The lawyer sits on this information for a second. And then

Speaker 1 he sees an episode of Extra outlining Lita's case.

Speaker 1 So it has made it all the way to like tabloid TV.

Speaker 2 You have to say it. Extra.

Speaker 1 Then he, my God, that show was just like in all of our lives, lives, like it was the 7 o'clock news.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it was better.

Speaker 1 It's like hard copy, extra.

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 1 Entertainment tonight.

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 1 Don't all have a seizure.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 1 So when this lawyer sees that, he calls the FBI and he gives them this information Belinda's told him, and it blows the case wide open.

Speaker 1 Authorities tell Belinda to reach out to her ex-husband to try to get him to talk more. Oh, yeah.
And she does. Their conversation is monitored by the police.

Speaker 2 I love those recordings of someone trying to fucking get information from someone and pretending that they're like, I just love hearing those because some people are so good at it and some people are so bad at it, but the criminal still fucking talks no matter what.

Speaker 2 Or they, you could tell they know and they're like, I'm not saying anything.

Speaker 1 I don't know why you're trying to get me to say that exact phrase, but I'm not saying it. I love those.

Speaker 1 It's the same thing where it's like when people have to like recite lines or whatever, where it's like, acting is really hard.

Speaker 1 Like the idea that you're just going to be like i'm having a casual yeah ex-wife ex-husband conversation with you no big deal totally even though

Speaker 2 yeah

Speaker 1 trying to sound casual jesus when i try to sound casual i try to make my voice as high as possible that's good to know yeah don't use that against me okay so Belinda asks Tony about Lita's murder, and he says enough to place himself at the scene of the crime.

Speaker 1 Also, when they look at those sketches that the police had, Tony looks like one of them. So that's enough to arrest Tony in North Carolina.
He's interviewed for several hours.

Speaker 1 He admits to taking Jim's money in exchange for Lita's murder. He also claims he didn't actually pull the trigger.

Speaker 1 He claims he found another person to actually carry out the hit, but he is unclear on who that person is.

Speaker 1 But Jim Sullivan is named as the mastermind behind Lita's death. And of course, he starts to realize Tony's arrested.
It's the inevitable future for him.

Speaker 1 So he flees the country and is living entirely off the grid because Jim is a white male millionaire. Right.
And it's like, okay, bye, see you later.

Speaker 2 Yeah, goes to Taiwan.

Speaker 1 He ends up on the FBI's Most Wanted list. He's also featured on America's Most Wanted.
Still, no one can find him.

Speaker 1 But then the Florida Supreme Court reverses the lower court's ruling that Jim does not have to pay that $4 million damage to the McClinton family.

Speaker 1 And they do that on the grounds that Lita was killed in Georgia.

Speaker 1 So the courts should have been respecting the Georgia statute of limitations, which is longer than Florida's statute of limitations.

Speaker 2 I could have told the judge that.

Speaker 2 And I'm barely a lawyer. Yeah.

Speaker 1 You just got to be a lawyer from nine years of this podcast.

Speaker 1 So Emery and Joanne win this case. They know they're not going to see that money, but it does feel to them like a small symbolic step toward justice.

Speaker 1 At least something is happening in the right direction on this case.

Speaker 1 So, this is now 15 years after Lita's murder. It's 2002.

Speaker 1 And someone in Thailand is watching America's Most Wanted, and they recognize the man on the screen as a man who lives in their condo complex with them.

Speaker 2 Fuck, man.

Speaker 1 So, they call the police, and in early July of 2002, police officers show up to Jim Sullivan's secret beachfront condo in Thailand.

Speaker 2 Taiwan. Taiwan, you mean?

Speaker 1 After 15 long years, Jim Sullivan is finally arrested for the murder of Lita McClinton.

Speaker 1 He's brought back to Georgia for the murder trial, and as part of his plea deal, Tony Hardwood testifies against him. Nice.
Tony winds up pleading guilty to manslaughter charges as part of this deal.

Speaker 1 In 2006, a racially diverse jury of nine women and three men find Jim Sullivan guilty of the murder of Lita McClinton.

Speaker 1 When that sentence is handed down, Emery and Joanne burst into tears and hold each other in the courtroom. It's now been nearly 20 years since their daughter was murdered.

Speaker 1 Jim Sullivan is sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole. He is still in prison today.
Tony Hardwood serves 20 years and he gets out in 2018 and is now free.

Speaker 1 No one else has been charged in Lita McClinton's murder. Tony Hardwood will eventually refute the idea that of the two other men from the flower shop.

Speaker 1 He claims he purchased the flowers himself. There was no second person present.
He He just implicates a man he will only refer to as, quote, John the bartender, as the actual hitman that day.

Speaker 1 So he just won't, yeah. Okay.
He can't either deal with the fact that he did it or there is somebody else that he's not, he's not ratting out. Which is chilling.

Speaker 1 Once Jim Sullivan's guilty verdict is finally handed down after all those years, Joanne McClinton talks to reporters and she says to them this one quote: He's taken something we can't ever get back.

Speaker 1 There is no closure when you've lost a child. You can live with it better, but there is no closure.

Speaker 2 End quote.

Speaker 1 In 2023, Emery McClinton passes away after a long illness at the age of 90. Joanne McClinton is still alive in Georgia today.
Wow.

Speaker 1 There's a bronze sculpture commemorating Lita McClinton's life at Atlanta's Oakland Cemetery.

Speaker 1 The plaque on it reads, quote, in loving memory of dearest Lita, the giver, whose inner beauty was blinding, smiles, love, and tears.

Speaker 1 And that's the tragic story of the murder of Lita McClinton.

Speaker 2 Wow.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 1 go read The Devil Went Down to Georgia

Speaker 1 to read all of the details of this crazy

Speaker 2 change.

Speaker 2 The crazy details. And it's so long for him to get fucking justice.

Speaker 1 I know.

Speaker 2 Wow. Great job.
Thank you.

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Goodbye.

Speaker 2 Okay, so we left off with your story in prison. And we're going to stay there for the beginning of my story just for a moment.

Speaker 2 Because this is the story of a brazen prison break by a group of inmates who managed to evade capture for six weeks.

Speaker 2 This is the story of the Texas 7. And you like prison breaks stuff, right? Like you've done it.

Speaker 1 I find it very exciting.

Speaker 2 Okay, well, this one is hold on to your pants. Okay.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 Wherever you got. Grip something.

Speaker 2 The main sources for the story are a 60-minute segment from 2001, a crime library article by Gary C. King, and then this old school crime show called Mugshots.
That was very

Speaker 1 mugshots.

Speaker 2 What year? Mugshots. It's got like,

Speaker 2 you know, it's like, they come and turn to the side. They're like, here's the, we're going to, yeah.
I don't know what year it is, but I hope it's old because

Speaker 2 it felt like it. And the rest of the sources could be found in the show notes.
So we're starting with the main mugshot guy, George Rivas. He's 30 years old and he's serving 17 life sentences

Speaker 2 at the John B. Connolly Penitentiary in southeastern Texas.
So fucking long time in prison in Texas.

Speaker 1 Can I just say this?

Speaker 1 When we talk about jail breaks being exciting, like, for example, if you go listen to Infamous International Pink Panthers, those are some great jail breaks by people who like to steal diamonds.

Speaker 1 Right. When we're talking about a man who has 17 life sentences,

Speaker 1 that's bad. We don't want those people 100%.

Speaker 2 Unless. Let me tell you something about that.

Speaker 1 Okay, I was just scared that I sounded like I was backing up.

Speaker 2 No. Okay, multiple murderers escaping jail.
Only people who think that comment on Instagram. So you're fine.

Speaker 1 Who are those people?

Speaker 2 So this prison is between San Antonio and Corpus Christi.

Speaker 2 george is there for armed robbery and aggravated kidnapping and that is bad i'm not making any excuses in 1993 in his early 20s he had robbed several stores in el paso he kind of like i don't know he really enjoyed robbing places okay as a teenager and into his 20s even though he was like going to college he had children and a wife a seemingly normal life it's just he had this rebellious streak in him that made him keep doing this made him put guns in people's faces.

Speaker 1 Yes.

Speaker 2 And that is traumatic for a lifetime for all of those people. But the kidnapping part refers to handcuffing some store employees and locking them in a different part of the store.

Speaker 2 Oh, so that's counted in Texas or, you know, wherever else as kidnapping. So he didn't abduct anyone.
He didn't kill anyone.

Speaker 2 And the number of life sentences in Texas is equal to the number of hostages you took or like the number of kidnappings, not the severity of the crime. Okay.

Speaker 2 So 17 people in the store that he put in the, you know, a bathroom or whatever is 17 life sentences. Got you.
So for a young man, that is 30 years. That's the rest of your life in your mind.
Entirely.

Speaker 2 And there's no parole happening. Right.
So, you know, he goes in in his early 20s. By late 2000, in his 30s, he is a model prisoner.
His behavioral record is impeccable.

Speaker 2 He's what's considered a trustee, meaning an inmate who's seen as well-behaved and responsible. And so he has a coveted job in the prison's maintenance department.
He's also totally fucking over it.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Yeah.
I mean, who isn't in prison? Like, that's not special. But he's despondent at the idea that he will be spending the rest of his life behind bars.
So he starts to cook up a plan.

Speaker 2 And he was going to school for engineering when he got caught.

Speaker 2 Like, he's a smart guy. He's a planner.
He's a thinker. Yeah.
You know?

Speaker 2 The first step of his plan is recruiting other inmates. George had been more of a career criminal, as I said, but some of the people he chooses have been convicted of horrendous crimes.

Speaker 2 So this is not a feel-good story in any way.

Speaker 2 Violent crimes, including rape, murder, and a horrific incident of physical abuse against a child. It's these are not fucking good guys.
For George, he doesn't really care.

Speaker 2 He might not even know what they're in there for. Who knows? But for his plan to work, most of the other guys involved have to have that same job assignment that he does in the maintenance department.

Speaker 2 So that just kind of happens that that's who he teams up with.

Speaker 2 They are often left alone in there to complete tasks, maybe with one or two maintenance workers, but no corrections officers because they're trusted.

Speaker 2 The other men George recruits are named Patrick Murphy, Donald Newberry, Larry Harper, Joseph Garcia, and Randy Halprin. And they're all in their 20s and 30s, and they all have very long sentences.

Speaker 2 So they have incentive to escape. The final inmate who doesn't work in the maintenance department is also let into the plan, and his name is Michael Rodriguez.

Speaker 2 I'm not going to get like too into the weeds with the escape because it's complicated and there's a lot of luck involved.

Speaker 2 They got away with some like a lot of things had to be on their side that day for them to have gotten away with it.

Speaker 2 The prison has three guard towers staffed by armed guards and it's surrounded by double 12-foot fences topped with razor wire. So they're not going over the top of that.
They're not running off.

Speaker 2 There's also a patrol vehicle staffed with another armed guard, which moves around the outside of the complex.

Speaker 2 But none of that matters because George's plan is to take over a small portion of the prison by force. Oh.

Speaker 2 So on December 13th, 2000, George and almost all of the members of his crew are at their jobs at the maintenance building.

Speaker 2 They ask one of the guards if they can stay behind during lunch break to wax the floors or some such shit. The guard lets them, which isn't rare.

Speaker 2 It's not the first time it's happened that they're left pretty much unsupervised. One maintenance supervisor stays behind with the group, but all of the corrections officers go to lunch.

Speaker 2 So it's not an officer who stays behind. It's like a civilian.
Through a series of events that involve some planning and, as I said, some straight-up luck, the men are able to overpower...

Speaker 2 guards and maintenance workers, like multiple guards and maintenance workers, steal their weapons, and then change into the clothes of those maintenance workers and corrections officers.

Speaker 2 It's complicated, but they fucking pull it off beautifully, unfortunately.

Speaker 2 At this point, the rest of the inmates have driven over in a maintenance truck, which really is scheduled to be going into town that day. So no one looking from afar questions seeing it at the gate.

Speaker 2 And so at this point, they run over there, two are in the cab, four are hiding under a big piece of plywood in the bed.

Speaker 2 And then George, who at this point has snuck into the patrol tower, opens the gate, goes down into the truck, hops in, and everyone drives away, like in a truck, easily. Yeah.

Speaker 2 you know when they leave they have taken with them 16 guns of varying sizes ammunition as well as money credit cards and ids from the prison workers and guards so they just like were immediately armed and dangerous and this is stuff they got their hands on within the jail yes by overpowering the guards and maintenance workers you know

Speaker 2 Authorities at the prison figure out what has happened pretty much immediately, and they know that the group of escaped inmates is heading towards town.

Speaker 2 So they're out there looking for the truck immediately. It's an immediate manhunt.

Speaker 2 But what they don't know is that one of the inmates' father had also been in on the plan and he had left a car in a local Walmart parking lot four miles away from the prison.

Speaker 2 So they take that truck to the parking lot. They hop into this car instead.
And they're out of town.

Speaker 1 Come on, boy dads. Let's be better than this.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Let's not.
Don't supply your kids with a getaway car.

Speaker 1 I mean, I wonder if it's that kind of thing where it's just like, you get out and I'll make it so that you can stay out type of thing. No one wants anyone to be in jail.

Speaker 1 That's a thing too, is like prison is hell. I mean, any.

Speaker 2 Yeah, sure. Right.

Speaker 1 So that idea of like, you're in jail, you have 12 life sentences and you're getting bummed where it's like, plan for that. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Act accordingly. Yeah.
Learn something.

Speaker 1 The high of the risk isn't going to be worth it.

Speaker 2 Especially in Texas.

Speaker 1 Okay. So anyway, some codependent dad is like, don't don't worry about it.
You're going to be okay.

Speaker 2 I've got you. Yeah, as long as you come home for whatever.
So the group stops overnight in San Antonio, then proceeds to Houston.

Speaker 2 They rob a radio shack in a suburb called Pearland, Pearl Land, probably.

Speaker 2 The group arrives at the store right around closing time, and this is kind of their MO. A clerk at the store named Michael, he's only 19 years old.

Speaker 2 And when they take their guns out, he starts hyperventilating. And one of the robbers reads his name tag and says, quote, calm down, Michael, take deep breaths.

Speaker 2 So they're actually like kind of nice to him.

Speaker 2 After tying Michael up and putting him in the store's bathroom, the inmates start taking cash and electronics out of the store.

Speaker 2 But while they're doing this, Michael's dad pulls up into the parking lot to pick him up. And it's like closing time.
So there's no other cars. Like it's, it's very sketchy.

Speaker 2 George Revas ends up tying him up as well and puts him in the store's bathroom with Michael.

Speaker 2 When Michael is interviewed about his experience with the escaped convicts, he later says, quote, they were nice guys, end quote. So like, oh, I don't think George Revis had intentions to hurt people.

Speaker 2 I think it almost seems like it was a game to him to rob places, you know, like a me against the world kind of a thing, you know.

Speaker 1 Except,

Speaker 1 yeah. I mean, it's nice.

Speaker 2 No, they gave him a

Speaker 1 gave him a nice breathing technique. And so, I'm sure Michael's like, but don't you think that's the ultimately? It's like, well, what's he supposed to do?

Speaker 1 He's not going to cry and say that was the most traumatic thing that's ever happened.

Speaker 1 He has to be like, it's okay.

Speaker 2 There's no like good calm robbery. Like that's not a thing.
Yeah. No.

Speaker 2 And as I said, some of the criminals were originally convicted of some very awful crimes. So it means nothing.
There's a reason he was hyperventilating. Yeah.
And he was right. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Now, the plan is for the group to stay together until they've gotten enough cash through robberies to buy fake IDs and then they will all go their separate ways.

Speaker 2 So seven dudes together seems like an obvious thing to me, but who am I?

Speaker 1 You mean like that people would spot them and be like, Yeah. Hey, that's not a book club.

Speaker 2 How does the seating work in a car? Because it was a small car, like someone's on the lap. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Or someone's like, you get in the way back.

Speaker 2 In the trunk. Yeah.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 The trunk.

Speaker 1 Who writes in the trunk on this one? Yeah.

Speaker 2 Rock, paper, scissors. And so for the moment, they're actually enjoying their freedom.
George later says, quote, we were all ecstatic, honestly.

Speaker 2 We knew there was a serious manhunt, but every day was precious to us. The freedom of walking to the corner store and buying a soda, a newspaper, and the clerk saying, Good morning, how are you?

Speaker 2 It was beautiful. End quote.

Speaker 1 That's how I used to feel when I lived in San Francisco and worked at the Gap.

Speaker 1 I get to do what I want.

Speaker 1 I mean,

Speaker 2 but you still do. Yeah, I wasn't doing any crime play.

Speaker 1 I didn't do any crimes. I just took my $6.25 an hour and made something of myself.
You sure did. God damn it.

Speaker 2 So George says that after he gets a fake ID, he just wants to disappear somewhere and get a job as a cook and live a normal life. Of course, it doesn't work out that way.
Surprise, surprise.

Speaker 2 Never does these jail breaks. Never does.
Doesn't the fun comes to a grinding halt and a tragic end on Christmas Eve.

Speaker 2 By this point, the men have made their way to the Dallas area and they're going to try to get everything they need to secure their lives in hiding at an Oshman's sporting goods store in Irving, Texas.

Speaker 1 Why is that, buddy? I don't know. We have one in Petaluma.

Speaker 2 I do.

Speaker 1 It's that kind of thing where it's just like, go to Osh, get everything you need to live.

Speaker 2 What's their jingle? I don't know if they have one. Go Oshmin's.
No, that's

Speaker 2 familiar.

Speaker 1 No, that sounded good. I mean, it's just like one of those general kind of overalls and hammers and maybe a Christmas tree.

Speaker 2 Tents, probably. Tents.

Speaker 2 Yep. So that's like they kind of are getting everything they need.
So hummingbird feeders. Hummingbird feeders.
And then a necessity when you're on the lamb.

Speaker 2 So right at closing time, three members of the group approach a manager at the sporting goods store, ask him to call all of his employees to the front.

Speaker 2 And we know that George is one of these three, but it's not totally clear who the other two are they say they want to show the staff some pictures of some people who've been robbing local stores so another ruse that like sounds kind of legit yeah like the flower delivery thing right right and also like the manager is probably like a 23 year old community college student who's like exhausted you know so just like sure yes get this done i'm trying to close out and count all my count my registers right it's like your friend at staples it's like well he's wearing the outfit so yeah i believe him he must know what he's talking about Exactly.

Speaker 2 Of course, as soon as the employees are assembled, they pull out the guns and force all the employees to go to a back room, tie them up, and then rob the store.

Speaker 2 And because it's Christmas Eve, there's 70 grand in the cash registers. And that's the year 2000.
So in today's money, that 70 grand would be $250,000? $130,000. Dicken Dick.

Speaker 2 You overshot, which is like

Speaker 2 ambitious, though. That's me.

Speaker 1 You know, like that's me in a nutshell.

Speaker 2 I feel like this $130 is wrong, not you. You know what I mean? Like, it should be.

Speaker 1 It should be a lot more. It fucking should be.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 The group takes all of it and they also steal 40 guns from the store's inventory, which has to scare the shit out of the law enforcement chasing them, knowing that they have all these guns from the prison and ammunition and they're stealing a bunch of guns too.

Speaker 2 It just makes it that much.

Speaker 1 They have an armory. Yeah.
Like a traveling armory.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Like they are armed and dangerous to the fucking teeth.
Yeah. So they also take.
a lot of ammunition and lots of warm winter clothing.

Speaker 2 They also take the keys to one of the employees' cars, which is like such a bummer. If you work at Oshman's, like your car, your Toyota Camry, hand-me-down.
Yes, exactly. Guys, take it.

Speaker 1 I wonder if they took those keys and then they made copies of those keys because that's another thing you can get done. If it's anything like

Speaker 1 it's Oshman's or Orchard Supply.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Which name is it?

Speaker 2 Oshman's. Oshman's.
Yeah, but I know what you're talking about. You know, those small town hardware stores that don't exist anymore in sporting goods stores.
Right?

Speaker 1 They kind of have everything.

Speaker 2 See you later.

Speaker 1 We used to be able to get it all done.

Speaker 2 They have the tiny model tents that you can't buy for your cat, which is so infuriating. Like, let me buy the tiny model tent for my fucking cat.

Speaker 2 It's clearly a cat bed. It's a cat bed.

Speaker 1 It's a cat toy. Like, stop.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 There's kind of nothing better than a small town hardware store.

Speaker 2 Oh, my God. I could spend hours in.

Speaker 2 I remember the one in San Francisco in the Castro when I used to do my like bank run where I'd go from my job to the bank and I'd go to the fucking, spend so much time in that hardware store.

Speaker 2 It was beautiful.

Speaker 1 The hardware store that would have like front windows displays where it's like Dorothy walking down the yellow brick road, but they're like, but also nails.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it's springtime. And then there's just like weird stuff that's kind of pastel.
Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2 So all of this robbing of the Oshmans might have gone off without a hitch, but an off-duty employee from that same sporting goods store, again, had been in the parking lot waiting to pick someone up.

Speaker 2 saw this like scene of like it should be closing time and there's unfamiliar people bustling around after hours and there's no employees anywhere. So this person calls the police.

Speaker 2 And one of the first two officers to report to the scene is a man named Aubrey Hawkins. He's 29 years old and he has only been on the job for a little over a year.
And so it's Christmas Eve.

Speaker 2 He's eating dinner at a nearby olive garden with his family when he gets the call over his radio and he leaves to respond to it.

Speaker 2 Officer Hawkins arrives at the same time as another police officer and that officer positions himself at the front of the store and Aubrey pulls around to the back.

Speaker 2 And it's possible that the escapees had a police monitor scanner, so they knew that this is happening.

Speaker 2 He gets to the back just as the whole group of escapees are heading out the back door. And they immediately start shooting at the officer.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 We know that George is among those who shoot Aubrey because he will later take full responsibility for his death.

Speaker 2 But it sounds like the other two members of the group who are with him also fire a bunch of shots. So it's unclear which shot actually killed him, but they do shoot Officer Hawkins 11 times.

Speaker 2 They run over him with their car as they flood the scene. It's just so awful.
Hawkins dies at the hospital shortly after his arrival. He leaves behind a wife and nine-year-old son.

Speaker 2 So it's just senseless and awful, but like, what do the escapees think is going to happen when they bring 40 plus guns into the game?

Speaker 2 Like these, you know, George Rivas is trying to be like, I wanted it to be peaceful. I didn't want anyone to get hurt.
But it's like, don't surround yourself. with like violent criminals and guns.

Speaker 1 Well, you can't, there's no controlling it. You have to admit that you have unleashed this force.

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 1 I don't understand, though, if people are witnessing what they think is some sort of a robbery, you're only sending two people over there.

Speaker 2 I think that they were just so close they got there first. Yeah.
You know? God. So yeah, maybe the protocol was like, you should wait until there's more, but, you know, it's a small town.

Speaker 2 He's a new officer. Maybe he just.
And it thinks he's pulling into the back. Like, they don't even know what's actually happening yet.

Speaker 1 And it's a true band of criminals armed to the teeth. It's worst case scenario.
Exactly.

Speaker 2 Yeah, exactly. At this point, the prison escape has been huge news.

Speaker 2 It's like they're kind of like these, I don't know, people are kind of like cheering for them in a way until they kill a police officer. Right.
And they're in Texas, by the way. So shit goes off.

Speaker 2 The group then becomes known as the Texas Seven, and a $100,000 reward is issued for information that leads to their capture.

Speaker 2 That amount winds up getting raised to $500,000, which in today's money is almost $1,926,000.

Speaker 2 On New Year's Day in 2001, a group of seven men randomly, let's say, seven men. Who were they? They arrive at the Coach Light RV park in Woodland Park, Colorado.

Speaker 2 By this point, the group has made efforts to grow beards. They changed their appearances.
George has bleached his hair so that it's like really blonde.

Speaker 2 And they arrive in an RV and they also have a Jeep with them. And they tell the RV park manager that they're a group of Christian missionaries in town to spread Jesus' word.

Speaker 2 And the manager thinks they look like nice guys and like invites them to their Bible study because there's a lot of religious people in this RV park. Yeah.
Apparently. Yeah.

Speaker 2 So it's actually kind of a good cover for like seven dudes together, which is very suspicious.

Speaker 1 It is very much so. I was going to say they should say that they're like a jam band.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 Or a cover band of some kind.

Speaker 1 And it's like Rhodes and band members.

Speaker 2 But what if they're like, hey, give us a show tonight?

Speaker 1 There's like, sorry, we're also very religious and we can't.

Speaker 2 Today's the Lord's Day. It's Monday.

Speaker 1 No. No, no, my Lord.
My, personal.

Speaker 2 In my religion.

Speaker 1 My sweet Lord.

Speaker 2 They join the local Bible study within the RV park. They hang out at local bars and they seem to get along well with the community.
And it's, you know, a small community.

Speaker 2 But on January 20th, So, like, that's a long time. Also the same day George W.
Bush is inaugurated. Oh.
Thank you to Allie for putting that in there.

Speaker 2 An episode of America's Most Wanted airs and features the story of the Texas Seven.

Speaker 2 The owner of the RV park sees this and he's interviewed in the Smugshot show and he's just like chill as fuck with a flannel on. He's exactly who you think he is.

Speaker 2 And he's like, wait a second, these seven guys look kind of familiar, but they're also like, maybe they're not. And so they go online.

Speaker 2 on the new internet to make sure that they like match the description. And so he's sure at that point, without a doubt, that these are the same guys.
And he calls the local sheriff.

Speaker 2 So the sheriff happens to be an RV owner himself, and so he pretends to be a tourist.

Speaker 2 They like to change the plates, so they're like out-of-town plates, and they drive into the RV park with his own trailer full of deputies. So smart.
Very smart.

Speaker 2 They spend the night there watching the group.

Speaker 2 And in the morning, George, Michael Rodriguez, and Joseph Garcia drive the Jeep to a nearby gas station, and the sheriff and his deputies follow them there.

Speaker 2 Once they pull into the gas pump, several police cars box them in on all sides, and the officers pull their guns, of course. George, Michael, and Joseph surrender immediately.

Speaker 2 George was like, he had a gun on him. He quickly considered it and then he was like, just surrender.
So he surrenders. Then later that day, Randy Halprin surrenders to authorities at the trailer park.

Speaker 2 Larry Harper is there too, but he refuses to surrender and dies by suicide rather than coming out of the RFV and going back to prison.

Speaker 2 Donald Newberry and Patrick Murphy actually make a run for it, but they are arrested two days later at a holiday inn in Colorado Springs.

Speaker 2 So all six remaining members of the Texas Seven wind up being extradited back to Texas.

Speaker 2 They're charged with the murder of Officer Aubrey Hawkins, and they're all convicted because it's that law of like, if you were part of a group and someone got murdered, you're all responsible for the murder.

Speaker 2 As of today, four of the six have been executed. And the last surviving members of the Texas Seven are Randy Halperin, the youngest of the group, who is now in his mid-40s.

Speaker 2 And the other current surviving member of the Texas 7 is Patrick Murphy and he is still currently awaiting execution. Neither Randy nor Patrick was actually present when Aubrey Hawkins was shot.

Speaker 2 So they weren't the robbers at the Oshman store that day. Also indicted for conspiracy to help the Texas Seven are Patsy Gomez and Paul Rodriguez, the parents of Michael Rodriguez.

Speaker 1 Who hooked up the Walmart?

Speaker 2 Can't give him a getaway car. You can't do it.
You can't. I don't know.
You would love your son. I understand.

Speaker 1 And then the idea they're pulling into like someone's old parents were just trying to like.

Speaker 2 Who maybe like didn't get what they were actually doing.

Speaker 1 Or just are like, we don't want you to live in hell. Yeah.
We want you to somehow get away.

Speaker 2 Yeah. I mean, this story, especially for George Revis, brings up the whole idea of rehabilitation and how like that's supposed to be the point of our justice system.

Speaker 2 And when you take that away from someone, there's no point to their life anymore. There's no hope.
Yeah. Yeah.
So you need like rehabilitation should be what we're aiming for. Right.

Speaker 2 At the time of his recapture, George says on 60 Minutes that he feels very remorseful about the death of Officer Hawkins. George dies by lethal injection on February 29th, 2012.
He's 41 years old.

Speaker 2 His final words are: I do apologize for everything that happened, not because I am here, but for closure in your hearts. I am ready to go.
End quote.

Speaker 2 Wow. And that is the story of the prison break of the Texas Seven.

Speaker 1 That's kind of shocking to hear somebody, a criminal, that's trying to say, I'm not just saying this because of this.

Speaker 1 Hopefully it's for you.

Speaker 2 He did seem to do that throughout his trial and throughout before and after his capture, you know, his sentencing. He was very remorseful.

Speaker 2 And I think, you know, that doesn't count much for Officer Hawkins' family and friends.

Speaker 2 So, you know, take that with a grain of salt. Yeah, That's right.
Wow.

Speaker 1 Good one. Thank you.
A lot to think about in that one. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Do it now. Think about it.

Speaker 2 I'm done. Well, you know what we should do now? Fucking hoorays.
Let's do fucking hoorays and end this on a high note.

Speaker 1 Let's do it.

Speaker 2 Guys, we started doing fucking hoorays again. So make sure you comment on this episode's Instagram with your fucking hooray, hashtag it fucking hooray, or email us at my favorite murderer gmail.

Speaker 2 And you can also leave a comment in the video episode. And yes, this is a ploy to get you to go to our YouTube channel.

Speaker 1 And watch and comment and like and smash that like button.

Speaker 2 Pretty, please.

Speaker 1 And be a subscriber.

Speaker 2 Fucking hooray.

Speaker 2 Okay, here, let me start. Okay.

Speaker 1 Because the subject line of this is if my fellow Kelsey's email, I guess I will too. No.
And it says, Howdy, I just listened to the latest episode where you reintroduce fucking hoorays.

Speaker 1 And I thought to myself, maybe I'll write in about how I'm handling my upcoming 40th birthday. And what do you know? You read a hooray from a fellow Kelsey celebrating reaching 30.

Speaker 1 And then that Kelsey highlighted their best friend, Kelsey, with an IE. What are the odds, man?

Speaker 1 I used to get Chelsea'd all the time, but I've met more and more Kelseys, so I guess we aren't too rare anymore. Anyway, I'll keep it short.

Speaker 2 No, you won't.

Speaker 1 I'm turning 40 on April 1st. And then in parentheses, it says, I am most certainly an April fool.
And it says, and I'm having feelings about it for sure.

Speaker 1 But here I am, happily married, fully employed, awesome dog, awesome cat, cozy home, heaps of gratitude to have left an eating disorder, damaging religious beliefs, and so much else in the past.

Speaker 1 So whatever the hell is going on out in the world, I am deeply, deeply grateful for my small slice of it. Thank you for your podcast and fucking hooray for survival.
One foot in front of the other.

Speaker 1 Keep moving forward.

Speaker 2 Kelsey. Kelsey, what if every episode we have to read a Kelsey? Like someone in Kelsey has to write a hint.
We can do it.

Speaker 1 Kelsey, do you hear us?

Speaker 2 Kelsey. You have to tell us your fucking hooray.

Speaker 1 Kelsey, spill it. You thought it was something nobody wanted to hear.
We do. You're a Kelsey.

Speaker 2 Even though I cried on my 40th birthday, and that was partly because it was the beginning of the pandemic, my 40s have been so fucking incredible.

Speaker 2 I'm so glad to get out of my 30s where you care so much more about everything than you do in your 40s. Like, it's just the best decade.

Speaker 1 Get ready for your 50s, where truly you cannot find a fuck to give.

Speaker 2 DGAF. Okay.
This one's from Instagram from the real Maddie B77.

Speaker 2 It says, one of the best episodes ever. Oh, thanks.
Hashtag fucking hooray.

Speaker 2 After years of YouTube being open and honest about therapy, I began going due to an unforeseen death of my best friend at age 44. It says sepsis, not murder.

Speaker 2 Therapy has helped me cope with the loss of a friend who is more like a brother and opened my eyes to things about me I didn't even realize. Thank you for your openness and honesty.

Speaker 2 It's helped many of us. Love from Korea, the real Maddie B77.

Speaker 1 Wow, Maddie. That's a horrible loss and so difficult.
And the idea that you're like, I'm going to do something instructive for myself in the midst of this is really brave.

Speaker 2 I'm going to do this the right way.

Speaker 1 This just says, so glad you're bringing back the fucking hooray. I have won from this past week.

Speaker 1 My 16-year-old niece and her high school girls ice hockey team won the Division I Massachusetts State Championship on the heralded ice. of Boston Garden.

Speaker 1 So they got to go to the state championships to Boston Garden and they won.

Speaker 2 Damn.

Speaker 1 Her high school, Hangham High School, is also my alma mater from 40 years ago. Woohoo.
Love you all. Kim.
Cute. So Auntie Kim is shouting out and celebrating.
That's a huge accomplishment.

Speaker 1 And then they got to do it at Boston Garden. That's the coolest.

Speaker 2 It's so cool.

Speaker 1 Congratulations, everybody.

Speaker 2 Okay, my last one's from Instagram also. Hashtag fucking hooray.
Last May, I underwent weeks of needles and an outpatient procedure plus a month of no roller derby, boo,

Speaker 2 so that I could donate my eggs for free since paying donors is illegal in Canada. Oh.
Interesting.

Speaker 2 Last month I got a meet and hold the gorgeous newborn baby that I was able to give this couple who had thought they might never get to have. I've been walking on air ever since.

Speaker 2 Jen, they, them, at Beatronic on Instagram. Wow.
Yeah. What a beautiful thing.

Speaker 1 That's like it's some roller derby superstar taking some time out just to help out a fellow man. Help for free.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Amazing.

Speaker 2 Amazing. Some Someone's your fucking raise.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 And look for what is something to fucking hooray about in your life, especially in these times. Right.

Speaker 2 If you think you don't have one, you just need to look a little harder because you'll have one this week.

Speaker 1 We promise. Yeah.
Treat it as an assignment. Make a little list.
Try to find three.

Speaker 1 Find your best. Send it to my favorite murder at gmail.com.

Speaker 2 And Auntie Georgia and Auntie Karen say to look for three.

Speaker 1 And we love you. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Stay sexy. And don't get murdered.
Goodbye.

Speaker 2 Elvis, do you want a cookie?

Speaker 1 This has been an Exactly Right production.

Speaker 2 Our senior producers are Alejandra Keck and Molly Smith.

Speaker 1 Our editor is Aristotle Acevedo.

Speaker 2 This episode was mixed by Liana Squolachi.

Speaker 1 Our researchers are Maren McLashin and Allie Elkin.

Speaker 2 Email your hometowns to myfavorite murder at gmail.com.

Speaker 1 Follow the show on Instagram at myfavorite murder.

Speaker 2 Listen to MyFavorite Murder on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 1 And now you can watch us on Exactly Right's YouTube page. While you're there, please like and subscribe.

Speaker 2 Goodbye.

Speaker 1 So whether you're buying tickets to an improv show or a who Done It board game, PayPal helps you make the most of your money this holiday.

Speaker 1 Learn more at paypal.com slash payin4, PayPal Inc., NMLS 910-457.

Speaker 1 No one brings out your inner monster like a bad neighbor.

Speaker 2 Claire Danes and Matthew Reese find that out for themselves in The Beast in Me, a new eight-episode drama from the team that brought you homeland. Danes plays Aggie Wiggs, a grieving writer.

Speaker 2 Reese plays Niall Jarvis, her new neighbor and possible murderer.

Speaker 1 But who's the monster and who's the bad neighbor? That's another story.

Speaker 1 The Beast and Me, now playing only on Netflix.

Goodbye. We're careful about what we eat, drink, and clean with.
We should take as much care with what we put on our faces.

Speaker 1 Crunchy makes high-performance, non-toxic skincare and makeup.

Speaker 2 So Crunchy just sent me some products and I am losing my mind.

Speaker 2 I put some of their beautifully flawless foundation on one of my hands, and so now one of my hands looks 10 years younger than my other hand.

Speaker 1 So, visit crunchy.com to shop Clean Beauty that performs and take 20% off your order with code MFM.

Speaker 2 That's code MFM at C-R-U-N-C-H-I.com. The real clean beauty.
Goodbye.

473 - Parker Posey

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Transcript

More episodes from My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark

MFM Presents… Brief Recess

509 - Let Me Corrupt You

Rewind with Karen & Georgia - 73: Chill Satanist

MFM Minisode 464

508 - Live at Paramount Theatre (Oakland Night 2)