498 - Tugboat Cat

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Hello, and welcome to my favorite murder.

That's Georgia Hartstar.

That's Karen Kilgariff.

And we're gonna do some podcasting at you.

i hope you're ready for podcasting in your rear in your rear we're gonna show you how it's done

get ready and write this down get ready with me to podcast to podcast it's a get ready with me and they just put huge headphones on yeah and that's it and then just talk about themselves for two hours do you know you have a new i don't want to call it like a new nervous habit or a new what's the word not twitch

but like just say what it is you keep going like this.

Oh no.

You keep putting your hand to the back of your face and grabbing your own nose and your pointer finger and middle finger.

Just a little.

You've been doing it for a while.

I mean, I don't know what it is.

How many, did I do it like a bunch on the last record?

No, but I've noticed you doing it a few times every time I see you.

I just wanted to impress you.

But what is it?

I have no fun.

It's like an I got I got your nose, but to yourself.

It's how I comfort myself.

Why are you taking your nose?

Why are you taking your nose?

I mean, that's a crazy thing to hear about yourself.

I know, probably, right?

Also, it's funny because being doing this podcast on video, Nightmare, there was one video where they were, I can't remember what the, the whole video was about something else, but like they were using this thing that was an outtake, basically, where I did this super weird, like, upper body stretch before we started.

Oh, no.

And it was like, funny, but at the same time, when I watched it, I was like, it really sucks to have to edit yourself.

Yeah.

To have to give notes on, that's mine.

It's a whole different thing.

You shouldn't be watching.

What are you doing?

Yeah.

You shouldn't get yourself banned.

We're getting there.

But that's really, I'll make up a new one.

No, I like it.

I just like

it.

I wonder if it's like a thinking thing.

It's definitely like a...

Give me a moment thing.

Yeah.

Hmm.

Two seconds, please.

But

you're somehow like squeezing the tip of your own nose.

Should I not have told you that?

I mean, I just

stopped noticing it it now.

I would like to stop doing it for sure.

So that's fine with me.

This is the thing.

When we film this, when we do our show, our podcast, we also are doing video, but often I'm working right up until I walk down to do it.

So I have a real fast makeup problem.

I also have a, this foundation is too light for me.

Oh, well, I'll use it anyway problem.

So I think I'm also thinking that like, almost I'm giving myself last second contour or some kind of

or you're remembering your face is like it goes to here

stops here I don't know like once I noticed it I couldn't stop noticing I'm like I should tell her but

what for please tell me but what for it's the same as when you to what end you do that thing where you go

I know because my hair always sticks out or I do this and you go me no my literally me because it always sticks out yeah of course always this goddamn job everything about it no this is the fucking best this week we guys guys are the best.

Gratitude, gratitude.

Gratitude.

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We're having so much fun.

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Good rad merch, too.

Oh, the merch at the live shows is people are talking about it.

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So, like flowers and animals, and like, I mean, it's just so thoughtful and beautiful.

It's so great.

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Also, just in time for spooky season.

It's already spooky season.

Holy shit.

Sorry.

What's your costume going to be this year?

I bought a vintage shirt that is the color pattern of candy corn.

So

now done and done.

I fucking found it and it's gorgeous.

I'm really jealous of that shirt.

I'll wear it on the show and then we can switch.

Okay, I'll wear it the day that I have a skeleton dress.

Great.

We'll do that.

Okay.

So just in time for spooky season, make your plants too.

We got new and restocked Halloween merch in the exactly right store.

There's a bunch of brand new Mothmen stuff, which we, of course, love from MFM Animated.

There's a Mothman unisex t-shirt, the return of the Mothman zip front hoodie, the Mothman koozie.

That's this one.

And then skeleton joggers and the skeleton pin that moves.

The skeleton pin moves.

And you have the joggers.

Yeah.

And of course, all of those designs are by the great Nick Terry.

I mean, we love this man.

You've seen the MFM animateds on YouTube.

If you haven't, please go watch them.

They're pretty great.

They're so incredible.

They're a lot like this, but they move.

They're articulated.

I have to admit something.

Georgia proudly wears our merch everywhere she goes.

Not me, though.

I'm a very Kurt Cobain yelling at me all the time.

You know, be cool.

That's not cool if you wear your own merch.

Yeah, exactly.

But I was in Nicole's office one day, and she had the skeleton sweatpants sitting there and i was like i need those skeleton sweatpants and she gave them to me i have worn them in public so many times because they're so cozy that i don't care that i look like a cornball yeah no whatever way i'm judging myself i love it it's good i think it's good to support your school and your podcast.

Also, but just know that when Nicole picks the blanks for our merch, she is going for the best of the best.

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Go bye.

Bye.

All right, you're solo.

Yes.

I can sit back.

Yeah, just relax.

Thank you.

God damn it.

I'm going to tell you a story about a person who is extremely good at one specific thing.

And because of that, he became an unlikely partner to investigators in not only this country, but beyond.

His work not only helps catch fugitives, but it also gives many John and Jane Does their name back.

He isn't a cop or a forensic scientist.

He's a fine artist whose work predates the modern use of genetic genealogy.

We have mentioned him on the show back in episode 29, which was spelled episode 20NEIN.

Oh yeah.

This is the story of forensic sculptor Frank Bender.

Oh my God.

Like I'm having flashbacks to my childhood and watching Unsolved Mysteries and I might recognize the busts and the sculpture that was made of this missing person or this skeleton that was, and maybe I could solve the case.

Yes.

Is that what we're talking about?

Yes.

You were being called as a seven-year-old to please help the authorities.

Incredible.

Yeah.

And then, yeah, these are, I love these.

Okay, great.

So the main sources used in this story today.

are 2004 Esquire article by Brendan Vaughan entitled Man of the Month, Frank Bender, and a 1995 New York Times article by Karen DeMasters entitled Solving Crimes, Sculptor Recreates Faces of Tragedy.

And the rest of the sources are in our show notes.

So we'll start with that New York Times article.

They describe Frank Bender as, quote, an elfin man with a, quote, bald head, fierce gaze, and Van Dyke, which is Van Dyke's are, for the children, the formal name of a little mustache-beard combo that you've seen on many, many vape salesmen.

Sometimes they call it a goatee.

Yeah.

Incorrect.

Because a mustache is there too.

Yes.

Exactly.

So all that's to say that Frank Bender doesn't look like someone you'd find hanging around with the cops.

More like one of those guys that would be posted up along the Seine with an easel, you know, wearing a little black beret.

And that's why it's so strange that in the late 70s, when he's 35 years old, he has this life-changing moment at the Philadelphia morgue.

So he's from Philly.

He's born into a working-class family, and he's been making art since he was very young.

But when he gets exposed to the art world, he's kind of put off by it.

So when he graduates high school, he actually turns down a scholarship to go to the Pennsylvania Academy of Fine Arts.

And instead, he joins the Navy.

Wow.

Yeah.

But then when he gets out, he comes back home to Philadelphia and he actually becomes a professional photographer, but he also draws and he sculpts.

And he's very devoted to the practice, so much so that when he wants to work on his figure drawing or brush up on his anatomy drawing skills, he goes and visits the morgue.

Wow.

Yeah.

So that's where he is on this fateful day in the late 70s when the medical examiner brings him in and shows him the body that they have that he can use to practice and draw on.

This is a, yeah, very intense.

It's very macabre.

Yeah.

But I mean, if you think about it, like there are few places you can actually go to really see human bodies like that.

So the medical examiner brings him in and shows him the body they have, which is badly decomposed.

It's a woman who'd been shot in the head.

She's completely unrecognizable, so she has not been identified.

And that means the investigators kind of have no way to find out who her murderer is because they have no idea who she is, nowhere to start.

When Frank Bender sees her body, he actually says out loud in the moment, quote, I know what she looks like.

So when Frank revisits this moment in interviews years later, he makes it sound like he was kind of like in a trance or like he was overcome by a powerful revelation.

And he says that those words, I know what she looks like, just sort of slipped out of his mouth.

Amazing.

Yeah.

So when the ME asks if he knows anything about forensics, Frank responds, I don't even know what that word means.

But the Emmy is intrigued by the confidence that he's shown about thinking he knows what she looks like.

So he tells Frank to go home and try to create an image of what he thinks this Jane Doe could have looked like in real life.

So Frank actually ends up going above and beyond.

He ends up sculpting an incredibly like-life bust out of fiberglass, and then he paints the bust by hand, adding eyes, lips, skin tone, all the details he's seeing in his mind.

And he says, quote, I saw every feature of her face and how the form of one part of her face flowed into all the other forms.

I mean, if you've been studying art your whole life, then you paint people's faces, you know the structure so well.

Yeah, and he's also getting a sense of things, you know, he will later go on to like take in, because he doesn't always have a body.

So it's very kind of intuitive with him, but he's like, he locks in and kind of like tries to interpret what he can as an artist.

It's great.

So in this situation, it only takes him eight hours to finish this bust.

And when he's done, he's looking at the face of a woman who's around 60 years old with a prominent nose and a cleft chin.

It's so lifelike that authorities decide to photograph this bust and feature it in local newspapers.

And incredibly, it leads to this Jane Doe's identification.

Holy shit.

It turns out to be 62-year-old Phoenix native.

Anna Duvall, who's gone missing after traveling to Philly to meet a friend about a real estate investment opportunity there.

What's super weird is I went to high school with a girl named Anna Duvall, and she and her daughter listened to this podcast.

So I bet it was super creepy for them to hear that.

Wow.

Hi, guys.

That's so weird.

You're in this story with us.

Oh, my gosh.

That friend, quote unquote, is a man named John Martini, and he'd already scammed Anna out of about $25,000 and lured her to Philadelphia under the pretense of a sham real estate deal.

And when she gets to Philadelphia, he shoots her.

Jesus.

Years later, he is charged with Anna's murder, but by that time he's already incarcerated for committing two other unrelated homicides.

So he is

basically kind of a serial killer, but longer term.

More importantly, Frank Bender's sculpture gives Anna Duvall her name back.

So this experience is incredibly meaningful for Frank, as opposed to the superficiality and the elitism of the art scene.

This work makes him feel like his art actually made a positive impact in someone's life.

And he'll later say, quote, when I stumbled upon this forensic venture, I said, that's my turf.

That's where I belong.

This isn't going to hang on gallery walls.

I feel right about this.

This is where I'm going to put my energy.

And I can give back to the people instead of to art collectors.

Amazing.

It's pretty cool.

I love it.

Of course, when other investigators find out about the success of this bust, they enlist Frank's help on their cases.

He continues creating busts for the John and Jane Does in the city and around the country, and he becomes particularly skilled at creating lifelike sculptures despite having little to work from.

So in the best case scenario, Frank would be working from a skull that he could actually handle directly as he makes these busts.

So when that's the case, he basically works the clay over the skull to create a mold.

And then he removes the skull and he pours plaster into that clay and then he lets that set and then he sands and shapes and paints the bust while referring back to the skull for any hints of the person's unique facial features.

Wow.

Yeah.

He'll later tell People magazine quote I just see the image in my head then I let my fingers do the sculpting.

But usually Frank has nothing more than a picture of the unidentified person's remains or sometimes only a report from an anthropologist suggesting what their sex, age, and race could be.

Sometimes he has much, much less, like a few strands of hair.

The fuck.

So what Frank does is equal parts creativity and science, and he's constantly referencing medical information and anatomy texts to make sure that his busts are as realistic as possible.

But of course, he's also using his technical art skills, his intuition, and an unwavering dedication to reanimating the faces of the unidentified.

And just love that idea of like he found his lane.

Yeah.

Like in this weird way.

I hate the art art world, but I still want to do art.

And here's a way that like.

And I see it.

Yeah.

Which is a gift.

Yeah.

Yeah.

For sure.

So this is how Frank eventually gets the nickname, quote.

the recomposer of the decomposed.

So he's clearly a gifted artist.

And the more busts he creates, the more apparent his investigative and profiling skills become.

He has an amazing talent for picking up tiny bits of information about a person, like a piece of evidence found near a crime scene or the attributes of their bones and then using that to inform the creations that he makes.

And to the investigators that he works with, it feels almost supernatural.

Reporter Brendan Vaughan writes in his Esquire piece on Frank that quote, when you ask people in law enforcement to explain how Frank Bender does what he does, they speak of his intense interest in human nature.

They mention his compassion for the victims.

They point to his talent as a fine artist, his uncanny ability to read bones for clues.

But really, the essence of what they're saying is this.

Frank Bender has a sixth sense.

Here's one example of that sixth sense in practice.

In 1980, Frank is asked to create a bust for an unidentified victim in a town called Slatington, Pennsylvania.

So the remains were found by a hunter, and they're determined to have been deteriorating outside for 19 months.

So Frank has very little to go off of, but he begins by analyzing the victim's skull and he builds a profile.

And this analysis leads him to think that this person had an overbite and wavy brown hair.

And then he focuses on a piece of evidence that was found near the body, a single glasses lens.

Frank finds a pair of brown frames that fit this specific lens to place on his bust when it's completed.

Wow.

And when an image of this bust is circulated in newspapers, a man calls the police and identifies the woman as his 23-year-old daughter, Linda Keys.

Holy shit.

She's been missing for more than a year.

Oh, my God.

Though Linda's cause of death is never determined, she's no longer a Jane Doe.

And of course, her family has a little bit of relief.

Right.

Just a few years later, in 1987, a group of kids discover the body of a young woman behind a Philadelphia high school.

Oh, God.

So soon, Frank is working to identify her.

And this is another case where the body is very decomposed.

So he uses the evidence that's available to conjure up her face.

He'll later tell the Toronto Star that, quote, she was wearing a ship and shore blouse, a nicely pleated blouse, not a blouse someone her age would wear out in that neighborhood.

To me, it told me she was looking for a way out.

She was looking for a better life.

So I had her looking up for hope.

Oh my God.

I mean, he's interpreting anything he can,

but also like putting it together with kind of logical steps.

Right.

So it's not like.

Fanciful.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's like, how do people really work?

Totally.

So a year later in 1988, a woman sees this bust and recognizes her 18-year-old niece, Rosella Atkinson, who'd been missing for more than a year after last being seen at a local bar.

She left behind a devastated family and her beloved infant daughter.

Rosella's aunt will say that one of the most spot-on features of Frank's bust is how Rosella is holding her head up in that hopeful way, which is exactly how she held herself in real life.

Wow.

That's crazy.

I know.

But it

tracks.

It's just like, it is logic-based.

Totally.

Several years after Rosella is ID, her killer, a man named Brian Hall, finally comes forward and confesses.

He claims that back in 1987, they'd left that bar together, hooked up, and then he realizes that he's missing money.

He accuses her of stealing it from him.

When she tells him, you're wrong, I did not steal it.

He goes into a fit of rage and strangles her to death and then hides her body jesus so now because of frank's work rosella's murderer will face justice and of course the family is no longer wondering what happened to their daughter and their mother right but frank's most famous bust is not a Jane or a John Doe case.

Instead, it's a very famous fugitive case that I covered on episode 29.

So I'll just recap it really quick.

And also, we've done a rewind recently about this.

So now we're doing kind of inception-level podcasting where we're folding in a podcast upon a podcast.

So in 1989, Frank is asked to recreate a bust of the famous family annihilator and fugitive, John List.

John List had been on the run for 18 years after murdering his entire family in New Jersey.

I think that might be, in reflection now, my favorite murder.

Yeah.

Because it's

it has everything.

It has everything.

There's the ironic ending of the Tiffany lamp or the Tiffany shade or whatever that was.

The skylight.

The skylight that costs, that was worth so much money, that would have gotten him out of debt.

All the things.

And all of that.

So it's like going and living a normal life.

Like you hadn't done anything when you were like just an evil person.

Yeah, you killed three of your children and your mother and your wife.

And then getting fucking caught this way.

This way.

By this man.

It's so good.

Okay.

So he's been on the run for 18 years after murdering his entire family in New Jersey.

And the only thing Frank has to work on when the authorities come to him is decades-old photographs and some bits of information about John's life and his personality that have been collected over the years.

Because he cut himself out of all the photos at home, right?

That's right.

Smartly,

purposely.

Yeah, he knew what he was doing.

He had to erase any trace of what he would look like.

Right.

So they probably had to go scrape up some pictures, but they're all like almost 20 years old.

Wow.

So Frank gets to work, relying on his vivid imagination to guesstimate how John List could have aged over the last 20 years.

He looks at the old photos and adds heavy jowls, removes some hair, then dresses his bust in a suit and tie because as Frank puts it, quote, the guy wore a suit and tie when he mowed the lawn.

Wow.

Yeah.

Frank even throws on a pair of thick black-rimmed glasses because, quote, he would want to look more astute, more in control than he really was.

Amazing.

Frank comes to this conclusion while consulting with his friend, criminal psychologist, Dr.

Richard D.

Walter.

The two spend several days walking around Philadelphia talking about what John List might be like today.

It's just profiling.

It's so interesting.

Yeah.

So in May of 1989, Frank completes this bust of John List, and it's featured in an episode of America's Most Wanted.

And as fate would have it, a woman in Richmond, Virginia is watching that night, and she thinks it looks a lot like her neighbor, Robert Clark.

Robert is an accountant who wears very thick-rimmed glasses.

Wow.

So she calls the police.

A couple days later, they visit the Clark home.

And when they fingerprint him, Robert Clark is quickly exposed as wanted murderer John List.

He's arrested.

He's given five life sentences.

And that's largely thanks to Frank Bender's uncanny bust.

I mean, so incredible.

Down to the fucking glasses.

Yeah.

That he didn't even know that he didn't even need, that like he put on him for effect.

yeah and it was real and true because of it yeah because also it's kind of like if you pay attention to people you get to know people there's like certain amount of types of people in the world yeah and it's like this is the kind of guy who would want people to think he's like intelligent and successful

big glasses yeah yeah it's so good

it turns out list had moved to virginia and remarried.

And it also turns out List was watching America's Most Wanted that same night.

Remember that detail?

That's right.

And his wife is sitting next to him, right?

Yeah.

And he's just like watching.

Oh my God.

John List passed away in prison in 2008.

But he's not the only wanted man who Frank helped track down.

Just to name a few, his busts are also credited with helping investigators track down New York mob boss Alphonse Prosecco.

and the leader of a violent outlaw motorcycle game, The Warlocks, named Bobby Nas.

Wow.

So as passionate as Frank Bender is about forensic sculpture, it's not his livelihood.

Frank only makes between like $1,200 and $1,700 a bust, and he only makes two or three a year.

And the restraint here seems to be his choice.

As you might have guessed, Frank isn't exactly chasing wealth.

That's not his style.

He basically pays his bills doing odd jobs like working on a tugboat and the occasional commission here.

My God, what a life.

It's almost like he's one of those people that's like, I want to be out and about among the people.

Totally.

And that's why he can do that job so well.

I want to work on a tugboat.

Yeah, you can.

Do you think there are cats?

I bet there's cats on a tugboat.

They got to keep the rats away.

Or would they, or would the, oh no, they don't fish off a tugboat.

It's a totally different job.

Yeah.

If you captained a tugboat, please write in and tell us how many cats are on.

If you're a tugboat cat, please write in at my favorite murder at Gmail and tell us what it's like.

Meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow.

In his mind, it's his well-intended investigative work that feels meaningful.

So

in 1990, he co-establishes the V-Doc Society, made up of detectives and profilers, forensic experts, pathologists, and other professionals who regularly meet with the hopes of cracking cold cases.

I didn't realize that, but he basically is one of the founding members.

Amazing.

So good.

We've also talked about this group on the show in episode, I think you talked about them, right?

Probably.

Cold cases?

Probably.

Yeah, probably.

It was in episode 362, A Generous Number of Apples, your favorite, where, oh, yes, you talked about, sorry, it's right in the paragraph.

I knew.

I love to like read this and go over it and then just be like, casually waiting in conversation.

It was when you covered Pennsylvania's boy in the box case.

Right.

Yes.

That's right.

So for years, there was a boy and the V Doc Society finally gave him his name back just a few years ago in 2022.

He was four-year-old Joseph August Zarelli, and this information is a huge break in the still unsolved case of his death.

I mean, that's one of those classic ones that the older it gets, the less likely it would seem that he would ever be identified.

And the fact that he was is just incredible.

V.

Doxana.

Amazing.

So, as accomplished as Frank Bender is as an artist and an unlikely investigator, it's also worth noting that he is a big character himself.

His eccentricity is delightfully captured in the Esquire article that we sourced earlier, the one by Brendan Vaughan.

And he writes, quote, Frank Bender is a spooky dude.

And not only because he knows what your skull looks like, it's spooky how his answering machine invites you to leave a message for the recomposer of the decomposed.

And it's a little spooky how he returns your call from his clawfoot bathtub.

It's spooky how he talks, and it's even spooky how he listens.

But the spookiest thing about Frank Bender is also the thing that's made him a legend in the field of law enforcement.

Frank Bender sees dead people.

That is so,

I have chills.

It's amazing.

It's incredible.

I'm so glad you're telling this.

Yeah.

Also, like, what if this is untapped in other people?

It like totally that we could be helping each other with these cold cases and these horrible mysteries.

And you would never know unless you like walked into him or

do art.

Right.

Wow.

So Frank doesn't seem to mind that these things get write-ups or attention.

And that's a good thing because he gets a lot of attention for it.

He's been covered by 60 Minutes, Forensic Files, 48 Hours, written up in GQ in the New York Times, and there's been an indie documentary made about him called Recomposer of the Decomposed.

He's been featured on TV shows as far away as Japan and Germany, presumably thanks to his willingness to travel.

He's no stranger to flying somewhere far away and collaborating with foreign investigators.

So the assignments, the media coverage, the successful identification seem to feed Frank's thirst for more investigative work.

He continues accepting commissions and gets very attached to the cases that he works on, hoping that he can push them toward a resolution.

Ted Botha, who wrote a book about Frank, even says, quote, he's a fighter for justice.

He's almost like a little Captain America or something.

Wow.

So sweet.

In 2009, Frank is diagnosed with cancer.

at the same time as his wife, Jan, and she passes before him.

Yeah.

His doctor will later tell People Magazine, quote, I'm completely baffled as to how he has remained so functional through what must be an unimaginable degree of pain.

That is courage.

But Frank is quite matter of fact about his mesothelioma diagnosis.

Just a year after learning about it in 2010, he tells a reporter, quote, I'm used to being surrounded by death.

I've done everything I ever wanted to do.

I drove a race car, I've skydived, I've helped identify a lot of people, including fugitives on the most wanted list.

Yeah, I bet like being around death that much makes you a little bit more aware of the important things in life.

Yes.

And not waste time.

Yeah, your perspective is.

You'd think our perspective would be so much better.

Ours

been around a lot.

That's my anxiety.

No, I think so.

I think I pay attention more.

I think, don't you?

Oh, over these last 10 years, I think there's a lot of lessons and a lot of kind of awareness.

And a lot of being grateful because the fact that it's not us

by the grace of God, thank fucking God.

Like, there's no reason.

And it's that kind of thing of like, we, you shouldn't live in fear.

Yeah.

The idea of living in fear robs you completely and there's no reason for it.

Yeah.

And that there's a lot of reason for it.

There's reason for it, but most people are good.

Right.

So by this point, Frank has been working with investigators for around 30 years since that very first bust he created to identify Anna Duvall.

He's actually, since that time, it's estimated he's created about 40 more.

Wow.

He's done it 40 times.

So many.

He doesn't keep an official tally, so that's why it's just an estimation.

Over the years, Frank has proven he's well worth the, it's roughly $1,700 commission that he accepts for each sculpture he makes.

It's hard to get an exact measure of how many cases he has helped solve, but ABC News has reported that he has an 85% success success rate.

Holy shit.

I know you'd hate it, but I'd love to see a museum exhibit

of all the busts.

I know.

And the whole story kind of rolled out of like,

because, you know,

when you do art in whatever way you do it, it is about inspiration.

It's just that his inspiration is very odd and specific and incredibly helpful and meaningful.

The Philadelphia Inquirer, meanwhile, once reported that Frank's busts have led to breaks in almost every single one of the cases he's worked.

Wow.

That's wild.

The New York Times is a bit more modest, but still impressive, putting his success rate at somewhere around 40%.

Wow.

On a cold case,

that's nothing.

Totally.

Yeah.

In 2011, Frank Bender succumbs to cancer at age 70.

As the New York Times reported in his obituary, quote, interviewers are often asked Mr.

Bender whether his life among the dead gave him nightmares.

Yes, he replied, but not in the way you think.

For years, he explained, his dreams had been peopled by the dead and by sinister men.

The sinister men invariably attacked him, Mr.

Bender said, and whenever they did, the unnamed dead rose up in his defense.

Oh, my God.

And that's the story of the late and legendary forensic sculptor, Frank Bender.

Incredible job.

Frank Bender.

That is so good.

I'm so glad you did that.

Isn't that a good one?

Yeah.

Because you assume, like, like, anytime when we did that story about John List, or anytime you think about it, you're just like, oh, that's a thing that the FBI developed.

Right.

And it's something that I've been doing.

And then there was a guy who did this thing and we're moving on.

Right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's a true artist.

Yeah.

And like not pursuing that on purpose and it just kind of happening to you.

It's almost like, you know, fate.

Yeah, it's completely fate.

He gets a vision of what this woman who's been shot in the head looks like.

Totally.

Oh, my God.

Incredible job.

Thank you.

Perfect start to spooky season.

Right.

Jesus.

We've done it.

We did it again.

Look, we just keep doing it.

We won't stop until you take our microphones away.

God.

Damn it.

In closing, we just like to stay sexy.

And don't get murdered.

Goodbye.

Elvis, do you want a cookie?

This has been an exactly right production.

Our senior producers are Alejandra Keck and Wally Smith.

Our editor is Aristotle Acevedo.

This episode was mixed by Liana Scolaci.

Our researchers are Maren McLashen and Allie Elkin.

Email your hometowns to myfavorite murder at gmail.com.

Follow the show on Instagram at MyFavorite Murder.

Listen to MyFavorite Murder on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

And now you can watch us on Exactly Right's YouTube page.

While you're there, please like and subscribe.

Goodbye.

Kevin and Rachel and Peanut MMs and an eight-hour road trip.

And Rachel's new favorite audiobook, The Cerulean Empress, Scoundrel's Inferno.

And Florian, the reckless yet charming scoundrel from said audiobook.

And his pecs glistened in the moonlight.

And Kevin, feeling weird because of all the talk about pecs, and Rachel handing him peanut MMs to keep him quiet.

Uh, Kevin, I can't hear.

Yellow, we're keeping it PG-13.

MMs, it's more fun together.