Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 62: Trust Issues & Ice Skate Shoes

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Goodbye.

Hello

and welcome to Rewind with Karen and Georgia.

Every Wednesday, we recap our old shows with all new commentary, updates, and insights.

Today we're recapping episode 62, which we named Trust Issues and Ice Skate Shoes.

This episode came out on March 30th, 2017.

All right, let's listen.

I feel like I'm going to be the one that doesn't know the name of ice skating shoes, and so says ice skate shoes.

Let's just just,

you, you'd think, but you'll be surprised.

Okay.

All right, let's listen to the intro of episode 62.

Welcome to my favorite murder episode.

What is it?

67?

Is it?

I think so.

Wow.

It's up there.

We're pushing 70, baby.

Holy crap.

I know.

That's kind of weird.

Yeah.

We're still kind of a baby, but we're not.

We're like one of those old babies that's at New Year's that you're like, should that baby still be breastfeeding?

You're like, that baby shouldn't be up this late and it shouldn't be wearing a suit.

No.

No.

Isn't it weird to see older babies with diapers?

And I don't know how old babies are supposed to be when they stop wearing diapers and you're like, is that not right?

You mean the ones that are also wearing polo shirts?

Like then stand around with long hair drinking bottles.

Like they run the place.

Like adults?

Yeah.

Oh, yeah.

Hey, I met a girl today who met Ted Bundy's brother.

Really?

Yeah.

She said that she grew up across, like in the town, but she was a lot younger.

And she said that she was at a bar one time back home and her friend introduced her to this guy.

And she was like, the whole time was like, there's something about his face.

It looks familiar.

And then she said, but he also had this like, in his eyes, this incredible look of sadness.

And when he left, her friend was like, that's Ted Bundy's little brother.

Oh, wow.

I know.

That's crazy.

I know.

Can you imagine?

Did he have a little brother?

Well, maybe she was lying.

I don't know.

I mean, I know I really, I'm the last person who would know for sure.

And I did Ted Bundy on this show.

Oh, why would you know?

But I mean, it doesn't stick with me.

But I know he had an older sister that also was his mom.

Right.

I wonder if his little brother, if he had one, was his mom's sister.

If it was same sis, grandma.

Right.

Sister.

If it was, if they figured that stuff out in the Bundy family after Ted left.

Right.

Or, yeah, if it was.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Still.

Rabbit hole.

I bet his last name wasn't Bundy.

I think it was.

Really?

Yeah.

So it was like,

this is Mike Bundy.

Peter, Mike, Bundy.

Peter, Mike, or Greg, Bundy.

The Bundy Bunch.

The Bundy Bunch.

Come on, Karen.

Let me say it one more time.

So wait, you didn't, when you said those three names, you didn't realize you were doing a Brady Bunch reference until that moment?

The first two I did that.

The Greg I did.

Then you caught up to yourself.

And that's the moment of comedy.

Is that it?

That's the fun moment where you go, the comedy's writing itself.

Oh.

That's what that phrase means.

It writes itself.

Oh.

It doesn't really.

There's so much to learn.

It reminds me of your awesome blossom moment on stage.

You'll all know what we're talking about later on.

If we decide to post it.

Oh, yeah.

It's just always a secret.

Yeah.

This is my favorite murder, by the by, if anyone is unsure.

Yeah.

My favorite murder, that's Karen.

I'm Georgia.

We just got back from three shows in Portland that all are fucking awesome.

Such a fun weekend.

And thank you for the donuts.

Thank you for the laughter and the screaming.

Thank you for lots of good stories and things to walk away from.

Revolution Hall was such a fun place to perform.

In case we don't post it, can you tell the story of the Army crawl?

Yes.

So let's see.

That was the second night?

I think so.

No, no, no.

It was the first night, second show.

Okay, yes.

First night, second show.

So second show, yeah.

We were at the end, and I had picked a girl to do her hometown murder.

We called someone up from the audience.

And she was telling this story about how her cousin found a dead body.

And

it was immediately my favorite story we've had so far because it was all the things that I enjoy, which is her cousin happening upon a dead body in a creek, come to find out that's the dead body of a rapist and kidnapper, perhaps murderer who was on the lamb.

So we were happy about him being dead.

So it didn't feel gross.

Yeah, no guilt about the body, about the finding of the body or the discussion of the finding of the body.

And as this girl is telling the story, she tells the whole story of the crime he did right before he went on the lamb and then somehow died in the creek.

They don't know.

And

I asked a specific question about, did your cousin tell you anything about what it felt like to find the body or touch the body or whatever?

And she said she didn't know.

And then they went, Georgia said something.

They went on to talking.

I look over Georgia's shoulder and there is a girl,

Elmer Fudd style, sneaking down the aisle.

Not the aisle.

On stage.

No, no, no.

I watched her come up the aisle, sneaking like a cartoon with her shoulders up and her knees raised high.

Sneaking deep, deep, deep, sneaking.

And then she does an army roll onto the stage.

And that's when I interrupt the two of them.

And then it's across.

Before this happened, I saw Karen's face over my shoulder.

And it was like, I got chills just looking at your face because you looked

like horrified.

Yeah.

And I slowly turn around in slow motion.

There's a girl walking towards us on stage.

And I say, that's not cool.

You have to get off the stage right now.

Straight up to her.

I was just like,

because I'm thinking just drunk.

You know, the beers at Revolution Hall were $3.

People were definitely partying.

It was the second show.

It was a bit rowdy.

Right.

Yeah.

But she finally explains that she is the girl telling the story's sister.

I want to say that girl's name was Nicole, but I don't remember.

No idea.

There's no way.

Finally, we realized she's okay to be there.

And the only reason she came up on stage was because she knew the answer to the question I was asking.

In sister fashion, she needed to correct her sister.

Yes.

And her sister was doing something wrong.

Correct an ad.

Right.

And then gave us great additional information.

And then it turned out to be the greatest hometown two-parter double sister storytelling.

Yeah, but then the next night, too, another sister came up.

That was weird.

Yes.

That was super weird.

And it was just like, fine.

It was sisters backing up sisters weekend all weekend in Portland.

It was great.

It was so much fun.

Everybody was so great.

Yeah.

It really added.

Yeah.

Thank you, Portland.

We're allowed to tease that we're going across the seas.

Yes, hello, London.

And is it Ireland?

Ireland.

And they're going to ban you now that you said it like that.

No.

That was actually really good.

Oh, because you lived there.

Right?

No, that was Scotland.

Whatever.

But if that's where we're going, right?

It's London.

We have a couple shows in England.

This is the tease.

It's very teasy because we don't know what we're talking about.

No.

A couple shows in England.

A show in Ireland.

And a couple shows in Australia.

Yes, and New Zealand.

I mean, we get to go to New Zealand.

Fuck yeah.

We're kind of just like, we don't know if we have any listeners there, but we just really want to go to New Zealand.

We want to see what it looks like.

Yeah.

It's going to be fun.

So try to, if you're in New Zealand and you like this podcast, will you get a couple of your friends to like it so that we have at least 50 people at our show?

That'd be great.

That's the dream.

The dream is 50.

And if you need to bring farm animals or children, that's fine.

We just need to fill up whatever your local church hall is.

Please.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So we're going cross international.

We're, we're like Pitbull, we're becoming international.

Um, like summertime.

Well, you know, yeah, yeah.

Summer or fall?

I think so.

I think summer in the

anyway.

You'll hear more about it, and it'll be this vague when you hear about it again.

Yeah, so don't expect to get tickets.

Okay, we are back from the intro.

I mean, we had to discuss what was an incredibly legendary experience that I literally can still see it in my head of standing because that theater was very small comparatively.

So the stage was down close to the ground.

So literally, I see the girl basically kind of sneaking up to get on stage and in that same moment realize anyone could do that.

So watching her do it, I was like, now other people are going to start doing it and people are going to fucking get up on the stage with us.

It was scary.

I mean, it was legit scary.

The other thing to think about is 2017.

So no one knew.

about how to act at a live podcast show.

Like it was a thing that the MPR podcast did, meaning everyone in the audience was well-behaved and fucking knew how to act and only had two glasses of Chablis instead of fucking six Long Island iced teas, as we like to do at our shows.

Yeah, that was more of the bad hip crowd.

And we were more of the people being like, let me get up there with you because I'm with you every time I listen to you on this podcast.

That's my sister.

You guys are my sisters.

I'm coming up.

And we like that energy.

We like the energy.

We just need to know what's happening.

You can't sneak out of the dark.

Also, the sneaking made it very scary, which is very funny.

That's like John Crow stuff.

I love her for it.

I loved her.

And the story was, it was so worth it.

The whole thing was hilarious.

Yeah.

It was hilarious.

so it did pay off, but it is funny because then talking about we should have a live show etiquette guide.

Yes.

Like, what would you put in the live show etiquette guide now?

Well, you do the whole story at the beginning of the don't do this, don't do that.

But

yeah, you know what it would be?

Put your phone down.

That's what it would be.

Take your pictures in the beginning, whatever, video, whatever.

But there are sometimes people who just have their phone up videoing the entire show.

And if it's distracting to me, it's distracting to the person behind them.

And like, no one wants to watch your video of what they're watching.

That's a really good.

Yeah, that's a really good one.

It also makes me laugh when people do that at concerts where it's like, so you're going to go home and you're going to basically watch video of a little white speck

and most in a mostly black field.

And then other people going, whoo, and then the guy next to you being like, hey, so how many brothers and sisters do you have?

Like, I get like a 10-second video, you know, but it's like, yeah like and then you want to send it to your best friend vicky who couldn't come tonight because she's in labor but like vicky doesn't need the whole concert at all no or want it like you can't recreate the in-person experience 100

yeah so that would be my rule my thing is if you're going to rush the stage you have to do it standing up the whole time so we know you're coming you can't get so close to the stage that it's almost like this weird

and also

the fucking roll onto the stage everything about that was

so wild.

She'd had a few Chiblis.

It also makes me think that during our tour now that's coming up, I want to pick a pair of sisters for a hometown to come up.

Absolutely.

They did a great job.

We've had other sisters before, mother, daughter, whatever.

Like we need like pairs.

Right?

Sure.

Like people helping each other.

Yes.

Because I do think that sometimes people are like, oh, I can absolutely do this because they've had a couple Chablis.

And then when they're up there, it's a whole different kind of experience.

Yes.

So maybe like, yeah, two people who both know the story can tell it together.

Right, exactly.

Then it's like tag team.

Yes.

But also, just, I'd love to take a moment to pause.

If we're going to rewind, let's rewind to the, I think one of the best hometown deliveries ever, sincerely, was that show in,

we were in Phoenix, Arizona.

The theater in the round.

Yes, the theater that slowly spun around in like an arena.

It was like a, it was like a cage match with everyone around us, and we slowly spun around and I got seasick.

It was crazy.

If you go find a live show, we only did one in Phoenix, so you'll be able to find it.

It's early.

That live show, the woman who came up, and I can't, I'm sorry, I can't remember her name, did a fully formed and amazingly delivered hometown.

Like she was a hired professional.

It was hilarious.

So, you know, I guess that it's like, be really good.

That would be one of my roles.

Be really good.

If you're going to get up here, be really, really good at it.

All right.

Now let's get into George's story about the Moores murders.

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Goodbye.

Do you go first or do you want?

I think we should start over because.

Do you want to go first or do you want me to go first?

Well, I went first last time.

Did you?

Oh, yeah.

With the live show.

I mean, don't we have to follow just how we're doing it as opposed to what airs?

I don't know.

I think that's what we should do.

It's for us.

And nobody cares.

Nobody cares.

And I don't think we care that much.

I don't care.

Okay, great.

No.

Wait, now you're mad?

No.

I'm like, why do I care?

Like, why have I been.

Well, it used to matter.

Did it?

Well, when we were like back to back.

That's true.

All right.

It felt like.

So I just finished listening to this book called The Devil All the Time by Donald Ray Pollock, which is a really fucking great book.

A bunch of different stories of other people and they're all, you know, intertwined somehow, which I love.

And this one had

a husband-wife murder team.

Whoa.

Which I know we've talked about and neither of us kind of are that interested in it.

Or like, that's not our first pick.

And it's, it's so weird and creepy.

So, I'm doing one.

Okay,

you're going outside your comfort zone of cold cases and

lesser-known cases.

That's your passion.

This is the Moore's murders.

Okay.

So, 1961, 18-year-old typist Myra Hinley meets Ian Brady.

Ian

was born in Glasgow in a slum on January 2nd, 1938, to a single mother named Peggy.

And when he's four months old, she fucking advertises him for adoption in a news agent's shop window.

Oh, man.

There's a lot of words in here that I normally wouldn't use, and they're English.

Like news agent?

Like news agent and shop went window.

And I'm sure it's advertisement, not advertise.

Peggy visits him at his foster family regularly until he becomes a teenager without letting him know that that's his mom.

What?

You know.

But I guess his foster family is

good.

Yeah.

So, but he still has extreme temper tantrums, and they end with him banging his head on the floor.

And despite being exceptionally bright, he did poorly in school.

He's socially awkward, considered a quote, sissy at sports.

And he's cruel to animals pretty quickly.

And it ranged from, quote, stoning dogs, decapitating rabbits.

And on one, nope, I can't read that.

It's Febcat.

He later tells

Myra, his later girlfriend, that he killed his first cat when he was 10 years old.

Like that was a brag for him.

That's like first date shit chat for him.

Yeah, it gets worse.

Okay.

At 13, Ian had his first, was charged with house breaking, housebreaking.

As a teenager, he develops.

He taught a whole house how to go to the bathroom.

Oh, no.

Stupid.

As a teenager, he develops a fascination with the writings of Nietzsche and with Nazism.

Red flag.

Yeah.

In 1959, he learns bookkeeping in prison and he gets a job

as a stock clerk.

And he buys his own audio recording equipment and he transfers Hitler's speeches onto vinyl records.

Oh, like as a pastime?

Yeah.

Huh.

Yeah.

Sounds fun.

That's he sounds like a real, a real hoot.

Yeah.

Go get her

okay and 1961 a new secretary starts at his work named Myra Hinley

on their first date Ian takes her to see a movie about the Nuremberg trials so that's their first date Jesus not uh not Nietzsche and Nazism

yeah I mean yes Nazism so a guy's like would you like to go to the movies with me and you're like sure that's cool and he's like kind of cute and has like 50s slicked back hair he's older yeah yeah he's like the cool cool guy at the office.

He's got strong opinions.

Right.

He's not like the boys at school who don't like Nazism.

Yeah.

He's got his arm up in the air a lot, just like what you're looking for.

And then you meet at the movie theater and it's the fucking Nuremberg trial.

Yeah.

Super chill.

After they start dating, they read each other books about Nazi atrocities on their lunch break.

He, Hinley, she starts to alter her appearance to replicate the Aryan ideal, bleaching her hair blonde and wearing red lipstick.

And so Ian's really grooming her to become subservient.

And they start discussing committing crimes together, like robberies that would make them rich.

But ultimately, they decide that murder was more their style.

Nice.

Ian outlines a plan where Myra would wear a disguise, they'd abduct a child and take it to the Moors, where they would rape and murder and bury it there.

And in 1963, they took their first victim.

Sorry.

So in that discussion, what a risk.

That's all I'm saying.

Is you really, I guess the Nuremberg trials was really the test

of like, is she going to go with this?

Yeah.

If you cry when a bunch of Nazis are being hung, hanged, probably both.

Then you know that.

Right.

You know you found the one.

You found the one.

Also, I have seen Myra Henley's mug shot as a blonde with that lipstick on.

Yeah.

How do you feel about it?

She was definitely a fall winter.

Let's just say it that way.

She was definitely

not.

It's not complimentary to her face.

I mean, I had bleached blonde hair once and it didn't look good and I knew it immediately.

Yeah.

And I wouldn't have done it for a guy.

What?

What did you do for?

I wouldn't have killed anyone.

Children.

Children.

Children and the Moors.

Okay.

In 1963, in July, for the first victim,

Ian

tells Myra to drive her van around the area, local area, while he follows behind on his motorcycle.

And when he sees a victim that he wants, he wants, he's going to flash his headlights at her, signaling her to stop over and offer that person a ride.

So they see a young girl walking towards them and

Ian signals her to stop.

She doesn't do until they pass her.

And Brady's like, what the fuck?

And she's like, I know that girl.

I don't want to take take her.

So instead, at 8 p.m., Ian spots 16-year-old Pauline Reed on her way to a dance.

And Pauline is a neighbor of Hindley's who's a friend of her younger sister, Maureen.

So

she was okay with getting into the van with Hinley, who then asked if she would mind helping to search for an expensive glove she had lost on Saddle Moor, Saddleworth Moor, on a tract of open, oh wait,

on Saddleworth Moor.

And then I was like, you know what?

I didn't know what a moor was aside from photos nice so i thought i'd explain to people what it was it's basically just an open big open uncultivated field like picture where you know british people go shooting and bury bodies yes it's like a rocky hilly open grasslandy situation for miles and miles miles and miles yeah

um

so she wanted her to come find her glove with her and pauline says she's in no hurry and agrees when they get to the moor um

brady arrives shortly afterwards on her motorcycle and Hinley introduces him to Reed as her boyfriend and that he'd also come to find the glove.

And

then Henley claims that Brady took Reed into the moor while Henley just hung out in the van.

After about 30 minutes, Brady comes back alone and takes her back to the spot where Reed lay dying.

Her throat had been cut with a large knife and the collar of her coat had been pushed into the wound, which sounds so horrific.

He tells

Henley to stay with Reed while he goes and gets a spade that he had hidden nearby on a previous visit to bury the body.

So

Hinley notices that Pauline's coat is undone and her clothes were in disarray, guessing that she had been sexually assaulted.

I mean, she claimed she wasn't there witnessing it, but let's fucking come on now.

Right.

And

but Henley later claims that she assisted him with the sexual sexual assault.

And she turned on that story.

He says it's incorrect.

Oh, oh.

Am I getting their names wrong?

Sorry,

that would be in character.

Got it.

I see now.

So basically, she says I wasn't there.

And later on, he's like, oh, no, she was there and helped me out.

Yeah.

Got it.

Okay.

Okay.

Then on the early evening, November 23rd, 1963,

she

approaches, sorry, Myra approaches a 12-year-old boy named John Kilride at a market in

Lancashire and offers him a lift home on the pretext that his parents would be worried about him for being out so late and offers him also a bottle of sherry.

And he, as 12 years old, is like, hell yeah.

But then they're like, well, we have to go make a detour to collect it.

And that also we need help finding a glove in a mor.

So he's like, okay.

And then when they get to the more,

Brady takes the child and again, Henley says she waits in the car while Brady sexually assaults Kilbride and attempts to slit his throat with a six-inch serrated blade before fatally strangling him with a piece of string.

So this guy's just a fucking animal.

Animal, monster, psychopath.

Okay.

Then in the early evening of June 16th, 1964, so this all happens within a couple of years, two years.

Then in the early evening of June 1964, 12-year-old Keith Bennett is on his way to his grandma's house in Manchester when Hinley lures him into her mini pickup, which Brady was sitting in the back of, asking if he'd help load some boxes.

And then she said she'd drive him home afterwards.

So she goes to the moor again.

And again,

those boxes out on the moor.

Yeah.

You know, I have to move from the moor.

Hey, little 12-year-old kid.

I need help carrying some heavy shit.

Ding, ding, ding.

The ultimate red flag.

Don't ask.

Adults will not ask you for help.

That's right.

Children.

Yes.

Also, don't walk around your goddamn town by yourself all the time.

I mean, not that that ever, ever happens anymore.

No, never.

30 minutes later, Brady comes back alone.

And when Hinley supposedly asks how he had killed Bennett, he says that he had sexually assaulted him and strangled him again with a piece of string.

And they buried him out on the moor.

On December 26, 1964, Brady and Hinley visit a fairground in search of another victim, and they notice 10-year-old Leslie Ann Downey standing beside one of the rides.

When it becomes apparent that she's alone, they approach her and deliberately drop something from their shopping cart close by her and ask her for help carrying the packages to the car.

What a sweet angel.

She's 10 and she's like, yes, I'll help you.

She's at the carnival alone.

Yes, I'm at a carnival alone and I'll help these two adults.

And they're like, this is why it's so creepy is it's a man and a woman.

And in your mind, you're never, you know, like if you were hitchhiking and a couple stopped for you, a man and a woman,

you'd feel safe.

Yes, that's right.

It's the old trick of having a woman there.

It's so creepy.

It's the worst.

And also with little kids.

It's so unfair.

It's just like it goes against everything your instincts would tell you.

It's a huge trick.

Do you think that women, it's more horrifying for women to kill children than for men?

Like, it's, I feel like, is it...

I feel equally horrified at every story that I hear of people that think it's okay to kill children.

Or it like that need, the like a compulsion to kill children.

There's something so wrong with you.

I feel like what horrifies me more than the compulsion is the like, is being okay with it.

It's not even like like she might not have had a compulsion to kill children, but she went along with it anyways.

So that to me is even more depraved because it's not even this like addiction that you have.

She was doing it for her fucking boyfriend.

Totally.

Which is the, I mean, you've known people are like, now I'm into swing dancing.

And you're like, that's so lame, but you never say anything.

Right.

This is like,

she'll get over it.

Just, yeah, exactly.

Just like, we'll wait for this one to wind out and you'll hate him in eight months or whatever.

But now this is like, it's very extreme.

I bought a Vespa for a boy when I was,

listen, I'm not going to lie.

I mean, I thought it looked cute and I liked it, but I got it so that he would think I was cool.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I

hated it.

I, uh, what'd you do?

Proudly, I can say that the first bad experience that I had with a guy that was like that that was someone who was secretly born-again Christian.

And then after we got together, like unveiled that really he just wanted me to say the seven magic words that would enable me to go to heaven when I died.

What are those magic words?

I accept Jesus Christ as my personal savior.

You just said him.

Oh, well, yeah, I'm in.

I was already in.

Yeah.

You know, with the Catholic upbringing.

Was there like red flag?

Like, like, was there.

looking back when you were dating, like obvious things.

Well, it was very short.

So we were friends first.

Everybody that I was friendly, we had like this small group of friends and all the girls were in love with him.

And then it was like, he picked me.

Oh, my God.

And you're like, I'm so special.

Exactly.

And then like a week later, he was like, I just need you to say these words and then come to my church with me.

And then I don't really want to date you, but I need you to go to this church.

Did you get a gold star?

It was, yeah, seriously.

It's like, did you get some kind of kickback for bringing me to dumb fucking children?

How much did you collect?

And that's when I was like, oh, this is, this is like pathetically not anything I thought it was.

Yeah, but if you were like this fucking idiot, you would have been a Christian.

Exactly.

So, but I feel like I learned early the worst kind of most painful way of like, oh, the ulterior motive thing, like the second it comes out where it's even now, even if it's like, do you like Star Wars?

I'm like, goodbye.

You fucking tricked me.

How dare you?

Oh my God.

She better join your thing.

You got to like.

It all has to come out immediately or else you don't trust them.

That's right.

Or I just don't trust them anyway.

Anyhow, we'll talk about how I'm alone later.

Listen, I have all the trust issues in the world.

Don't even

anywho.

Blah, blah, blah.

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Carry some packages.

Then

they needed help carrying them into her house, into their house.

So once inside the house,

this sweet little girl is undressed.

This is fucked up.

Undressed, gagged, and forced to pose for photos before being raped and killed.

And

Brady again states that it was Henley who killed Leslie Ann Downey.

No, I'm sorry, Ian states that it's actually the Myra who killed Leslie Ann Downey, but of course she says it wasn't, that she was running a bath for her and come back, came back and she was dead, which is like, fuck you.

You know, here's the thing.

Whatever the truth really is, it doesn't matter because at this point, you could have been sitting at home waiting for him to come back from the Moors.

You were complicit, which means you might as well have been standing next to him, in my opinion.

Yeah.

And it's, I mean, yeah, I agree.

I now want to think the worst of you if you are involved in this at all.

Yeah.

It's not like it gets you off the hook somehow.

Right.

The next morning, they take her body to Saddleworth Moor and is buried in a shallow grave.

Okay.

So towards the end.

We're getting towards the end.

On the evening of October 6th, 1965, they go to the Manchester Central Railway Station and

Ian picks up a guy, a 17-year-old guy named Edward Evans, and he introduces Myra as his sister.

They drive back home.

They're drinking a bottle of wine together and Ian sends Myra to fetch her brother-in-law.

Fetch her brother-in-law.

When they get back to the house,

Myra tells her brother-in-law that...

uh to wait outside it's really weird so basically the brother-in-law who is

Myra's sister's husband, is kind of a small-time crook.

And the whole year, Ian has kind of been cultivating this friendship and like grooming him to help him with his crimes.

And it's said that Smith is, David Smith is in awe of Ian.

And basically, they kill this guy, Ian Evans, and try to get David Smith to go along with it.

Although he doesn't, he says he'll come back the next day to help bury the body.

and so sorry, he doesn't want to be for there for the murder, he's all good with the burial, though.

Well, here's the thing: so he says he was in the kitchen and didn't know what happened, but what comes out of this either way is that when um David Smith gets home to Myra's sister, he tells her what happens, and they're both like, let's go call the fucking cops.

Oh, good.

Yeah, like, can you imagine calling cops on your sister like that?

But also, was she always like this beast sister?

I'm sure, right?

Yeah,

because yeah she must have been a sociopath to be just

serial killing children and she probably she probably suspects something is happening between them they're being weird and secretive they're creepy nazis nazis a lot of nazi behavior yeah it's never a good never a good sign never so they call the police from a nearby phone box

I'm not going to change them.

I'm just going to keep saying them.

But they bring a screwdriver and a knife just in case Brady shows up.

Oh, fuck.

You know, to the phone box?

Yeah.

To the phone box.

Can you get that scared that, like, the boogeyman's just going to be like, hey, yes, yes.

I mean, once you realize that that's what's happening.

Yeah.

Totally.

So, but they don't even know that he's, like, they thought maybe he just killed this dude that they were trying to fuck.

Like, they don't even know that he's a child killer yet.

Jesus Christ.

Then, um, so on the morning, the next morning, Superintendent Bob Talbot of the Cheshire Police arrive at the back door.

He's wearing a borrowed baker's overalls to cover his uniform, so she'll open the door.

Nice.

And he says his police officer comes in and that Ian is hanging out in the living room.

He says he's investigating an act of violence involving guns.

And

let's see, looks around the house.

There's a room that's locked.

He goes into the room.

And when they come back, they say that they discovered a trussed-up body and that he was being arrested on suspicion of murder.

And

he's claiming it was self-defense, that they had gotten in a fight.

Sorry, the trusted body is the 17-year-old.

Yeah.

And he's saying, we got in a fight and it got out of hand.

So we had to keep the body in a room?

Right.

And we were going to bury it.

Jesus Christ.

Yeah.

I thought you were going to say they found a room full of gloves.

Right.

Hidden gloves that they had found.

Just stacked.

stacked to the ceiling.

Oh no.

So Myra's not arrested with Ian, but she's questioned and she refuses to make any statement.

She says it was an accident.

They didn't have any evidence that she's involved, so she goes goes home.

And then

Ian's charged with an accessory.

No, no, no.

Then October 11th, Myra's charged with an accessory to the murder of the 17-year-old Ian Evan Edwards.

And then they request a search of all Manchester's left luggage offices for any suitcases that belong to Ian Brady.

And on October 15th, they find a suitcase that belongs to him, and inside were nine pornographic photos taken of a young girl naked and with scarf tied around her mouth and a 13-minute tape recording of her screaming and pleading for help.

Oh, God.

And Ann Downey, Leslie Ann Downey's mom, listens to the fucking tape.

Can you fucking imagine?

That's John Walsh action.

Right.

That's fucked up.

What did he do?

He looked at photos of bodies.

No, he listened to an audio tape of a little kid getting murdered to find out if it was Adam.

Adam, right?

His son was Adam.

But it wasn't.

Oh.

So he just, yeah, that's the worst thing of all time.

I'm just nauseous thinking about that.

That's horrible.

So she says it's definitely her 10-year-old daughter.

And then the police are searching their house and find an old school book that has John Kilbride's name in it, the 12-year-old who went missing.

They also find a large collection of photos in the house, which seem to be taken on Saddleworth Moor.

So they fucking go there and start searching the moor.

And on October 16th, police find an arm bone sticking out of the peat that the body, that was the body of Leslie Ann Downey.

You might not know like an armbone sticking out of the peat?

It's just a big, wide, open field of

gray low grass and brambles, I think, right?

And then you're just trying to walk it.

And then there's just an arm bone.

And then arm bone.

Another site

on the opposite side, they found the badly decomposed body of John Kilbride.

And then the search is called off in November because of the weather.

So Brady's charged with the murder of Evan Edwards, 17-year-old John Kilbride, and Leslie Ann Downey, and Myra Hinley with the murder of Evan Edwards and Leslie Ann Downey.

They plead not guilty to the charges.

Then on May 6th, deliberating for two hours, the jury finds Brady guilty of all three murders and Hinley guilty of the murders of the two people.

Brady sentenced to three life sentences and Hinley was given two.

On February 2nd, 1987, Myra made a formal confession to the police admitting her involvement in all five murders.

Wow.

On July 1st, 1987,

Reed's body is discovered only 100 yards from the place where Leslie and Downey had been found.

Keith Bennett's body has still never been found, and his family continues to search the moor.

On November 15th, 2002, at age 60, Myra died from bronch...

bronchial

pneumonia caused by heart disease and he's still motherfucking alive whoa really?

I'm almost positive.

Wow.

Oh, sorry.

That's crazy.

You know, people have been asking us to do these guys for a while.

I know.

And I wouldn't have if I hadn't listened to this book just because,

you know.

Yeah.

But I did it.

It's so good.

I mean, they're, yeah.

They're,

they're like one of the earliest team creeps.

I feel like back then it's so, you know, you have this small town and children and people are going missing and you just don't put it together because that didn't happen back then.

Whereas now, it's like you wouldn't be like a 12-year-old's gone, they're a runaway

because that just was unthinkable.

And I think when you switch between boys and girls, it's also like kind of a way to throw off police.

Yes, and ages was like a 12-year-old boy,

you know, a 16-year-old girl, like it was kind of all over the map in terms of probably how they were thinking.

Totally, and also just the fact that she

that one girl was her little sister's friend

is so fucking evil.

It's crazy.

It's just like, yeah, the

trust aspect.

And then also the other way of Myra,

you're so into your boyfriend that you're, you are now like his right-hand man.

Yeah.

Which she argues is like, no, he had brainwashed me and I was under his command and all this shit.

And he groomed me to be his, which is like, maybe,

yeah, but only to an extent.

I mean, yeah, that could be true, but I don't think that that's an excuse for what you did.

It's you know, here's the thing: whether it's true or not, you still did it.

Totally, that's the problem.

I mean, at any point, you could have run away and called the police.

Yeah, because did she, aside from brainwashing, did she claim he was abusive or anything?

It sounds like they were like, were stoked Nazis

of that, of being abusive.

And I bet that if she hadn't died, she would have been let out of prison at some point.

Yeah, because she was so old, yeah.

Because,

yeah, because, yeah, I bet she would have.

That's like the um

uh Paul Bernardo and Carla Homolka.

She got out of prison, she's out of prison now.

I bet she would have gotten out, yeah.

I bet she would have.

Oh, it's so creepy, so creepy, so crazy.

Um, cool.

So, that is the more murders,

and we're back.

Are there updates on this horrible story?

There are.

So Ian Brady died in a high-security hospital in 2017 at age 79.

According to a new BBC documentary, The Moores Murders, A Search for Justice, he had written an autobiography while he was in prison.

There are about 200 missing pages, which is like mind-boggling.

And it's believed that those pages contain his account of the 1964 murder and burial of 12-year-old Keith Bennett.

Greater Manchester Police say they remain committed to finding answers for the Bennett family.

I mean, what a horrible spot to be in.

Like, do you even want to hear that from him?

It's just,

I can't imagine.

And after all those years and the other families that did basically get that,

I guess we'll say, quote-unquote, closure, but at least an answer,

to still not have an answer is just a nightmare.

Definitely.

Okay, well, let's get into Karen's story about the gorilla killer.

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Google.

Google.

Mine is the opposite of that.

Mine is, I went a Georgia hardstock style.

What did you call me?

Did you say hardstock?

No,

stark, but my mouth did a weird thing at the end, which it does sometimes.

It's my new thing.

Sorry.

Thank you.

I sound like I'm slurring, but I have been sober for quite some time.

That's the problem.

Or at least I should specify.

don't drink.

Right.

There's been people who are like, your sobriety means a lot to me.

And then I'm like, well, I stopped drinking in 1997, but I'm definitely on meth.

Just keep it in mind, everybody.

Okay, so when we were in Portland, I did the thing that you were just talking about where we had three shows, we had three murders.

I only learned that we had a third show, or at least was reminded we had a third show like the night, the day of the first day I was there.

Steven texted me and he was like, I said, so I'm going to do this and I'm going to do this.

And he goes, okay, and what's your third one?

And I was, and I just wrote back, no, no, no.

On Saturday?

No, Friday.

Okay.

Yeah.

Oh, my God.

Or maybe it was Thursday.

It was late for me because I was like, are you kidding me?

I have to do a whole nother one.

Yeah.

No, that's like, man, we need you and I, I'm not saying you.

I'm not saying we need to get our shit together with traveling because there has not been a fucking day when we're traveling that I am not scrambling.

Yes.

What is it about us?

We just, I think you and I both just work better when we're under pressure.

That's usually most writers are like that.

And are and

are so scared of failing and dread work so much that you put it off to the last minute.

Well, because, and I will say this for myself, typing is not writing.

So you, when you write, for things like this, it is reading and kind of processing and figuring out a way you're going to tell a story.

Right.

The problem is that if you do it last minute, you're, then you're just reading, you're reading something you cut and paste as opposed to telling a good story.

And there's no personality in it.

Exactly.

And so, but I'm weird.

I'm like, when I sorry, whatever.

No, no.

When I get it, when I sit down and start working on the story that I like, I'm so happy and I'm so stoked.

And it's like my favorite part of the week.

Yes.

But getting to that spot is so fucking hard for me.

It's the bridge.

It's the bridge to doing it that's the hardest.

Yeah.

That's when I start doing a lot of laundry.

I start wiping down surfaces that I already clean.

I have, I don't do anything.

Oh, just sit there frozen.

Yes.

So, okay, so here's the thing.

In my panic of going third murder, I start working on this fucking guy, but he killed so many people across the nation that he didn't feel like a Portland killer to me.

Okay.

And I was very angry at him.

But luckily, he's still there for me because the second we get back, we have to record again.

And so he's like, well, I'm going to go back.

He supports you.

That's right.

Earl Leonard Nelson, the gorilla killer.

Have you ever heard of that?

No.

All right.

Does he kill gorillas?

No.

Stupid.

That's the dumbest joke.

No, no, no.

It's the dumbest name.

What a bummer.

Was he like, oh, man.

Oh, that's so insulting.

Well, I've read.

So this is one of those ones.

I should say, Murderpedia is one of my favorite websites.

It is an aggregate site where they just, they bring you all the articles and anything written about the killer you've looked up.

It's not like Wikipedia where it's like, here is this paragraph by paragraph of what happened.

It's like, here's an article from 2006.

Here's one from 1967.

Yes.

It's the best.

But you also then, in reading all the articles about the one person, realize how

this guy, it was like, he was called the guerrilla killer because of his features.

He was called the guerrilla killer because he used to walk on his hands.

He was called the guerrilla killer because it took so much strength to kill these women.

And he rarely used a weapon.

He killed them with his hands, whatever.

It's that kind of situation.

But still, all that being said,

Murderpedia works like Wikipedia.

So if you use it or like it, I recommend you give them five bucks because I want it to exist always because it's such a great site

for research for this.

It makes my life so much easier.

Me too.

Okay.

Earl Nelson, the gorilla killer, not like that.

When you think of crimes of the early 20th century, I asked Karen,

which I do all the time.

You think the Lindbergh baby kidnapping and murder.

You think Al Capone and Elliot Ness and the mafia crimes of prohibition.

Oops.

You think of Leopold and Loeb.

But meanwhile, while all of those things were happening,

the first known American serial sex killer was on a rampage.

And nobody knows about it.

Or few people do.

Bay Area newspapers, because he started in the San Francisco Bay Area, called him the dark strangler because of his ability better yeah i know right because he could slip in and out of uh these houses um without being seen sometimes in broad daylight my god and later on he was called the gorilla killer because he murdered women with his bare hands but it turns out he was just plain old psychotic earl leonard nelson so earl nelson's mother and father both died of syphilis before he reached the age of two

yeah that's a rough start that's just your kickoff that's just downhill Yeah.

That's like the bottom of the hill.

And then you keep on going downhill.

Then you're down in the sewer area.

You're like, I'm at the bottom.

Both of my parents don't have noses.

So he's sent to San Francisco to be raised by his maternal grandmother, who is a devout Pentecostal.

So he's got

a fun and damaging childhood from a Bible-thumping old lady.

grandmother.

He was said that he, it's said he was already a quiet, morbid kid with a violent temper,

but then, and he was expelled from school at age seven for being incorrigible.

Age seven.

That sounds cute.

Incorrigible.

What's his name again?

Earl.

Earl, you're incorrigible.

Earl.

But he

then, at age 10, is hit by a streetcar while riding his bicycle.

He has

a head injury.

He's in a coma for six days.

Jesus.

And when he wakes up, his behavior becomes even more erratic.

He begins suffering from frequent headaches, memory loss, and eventually migraines.

Oh, Jesus.

So now

his moody, angry periods are broken up by periods of mania in which he takes to walking on his hands or lifting heavy chairs with his teeth.

Can you imagine we saw a fucking 11-year-old lifting a fucking chair with the fucking teeth?

A little 11-year-old.

Where you're like, Earl, please put that down.

Earl, sit down and eat your dinner.

Eat your peanut butter sandwich.

You don't need to do that with the chair anymore.

This is also back when everything was made of solid wood.

It's a fucking oak chair.

Oh, Earl.

He's picking it up with his teeth because he's like, I got to get this out of here.

Oh, God.

Okay.

So.

It's quoted as saying, this is my favorite quote on

murderpedia about him.

As a young man, Nelson was a a daydreamer and a compulsive masturbator.

You have to pick one of those.

You can't be both.

I think they go together nicely.

I mean, like whistling, hands in pockets.

What is the nightmare equivalent of a daydream?

A chronic masturbator.

We both had the answer.

Also, 80% of most serial killers are chronic masturbators as children.

That's one of those, that's one of those Harold Schechter

look out for this red flag thing.

As a teen, he was a regular at the bars and brothels of the Barbary Coast, which was like the red-legged district of turn of the century San Francisco.

When he was 18, he broke into a cabin that he thought was abandoned, and he was arrested and spent two years in San Quentin for it.

Fuck, can you imagine being a teenager in San Quentin?

I bet it wasn't that cool.

No.

So he enlists in the Navy.

He gets kicked out for behaving oddly and erratically.

He actually was, he was, because it was World War I,

he enlisted in and got kicked out of the military four times.

Holy shit.

And he just kept signing up under a different name and they would take him because it was like active duty.

They needed people.

You're like, you're too crazy to go to the front lines.

Yeah.

We're.

We're getting our asses kicked over like in over there and you still can't come.

Yeah.

And just be a bullet catcher.

So he, this, the last time he was in, he was in the Navy and he got kicked out because he refused to do anything but lie on his cot and rant about the great beast of revelation.

So he was just a crazy Bible thumper.

And he ends up, oh, I said, he refused to do anything but lie on his cot and rant about the great beast of revelation, a.k.a.

Dreamsturbating.

Dreamsturbating.

That's what it is.

That's what it is.

So they commit him to Napa State Hospital, which was a very famous mental insane asylum in Northern California.

It was there that it was discovered he had both gonorrhea and syphilis.

Oh my fucking God.

Yeah.

Dude, you, I mean, this isn't, your brain has no chance at this point getting hit by a fucking car.

You probably got, were born with syphilis.

Yeah.

These things eat your brain.

His brain was just never not inflamed.

That's why I almost feel bad for this guy until I probably find out what he does.

Yeah, you won't feel bad later, but you can definitely feel bad for 10-year-old girl because he did not have it good.

There's a reason he was picking up chairs with his teeth.

So he managed to escape three times from Napa State Hospital before the staff just stopped trying to find him,

which is the opposite of the three strikes law.

So he goes back after the third time he escapes, he goes back.

lives with his aunt again in San Francisco.

His aunt gets him a job as a janitor at St.

Mary's Hospital.

St.

Mary's Hospital is where my aunt Mary works.

Full circle.

Okay, so there at St.

Mary's Hospital, he meets and marries 58-year-old spinster Mary Martin.

He's 24.

Ooh, Mary.

Uh-huh.

She's very shy and reclusive.

And

he, and obviously an old maid.

Here comes Earl.

58-year-olds.

Oh, no, she's an old maid.

Well, I mean, 58.

Sorry.

As a 47-year-old, I'm going to say, yeah.

Maybe she's single as fuck.

Maybe she's not an old man.

You know what I mean?

I don't know.

Well, also, this was back when you were supposed to get married when you were 14 and have six kids by the time you were 20.

Right.

So she was way out of the window possibility, just kind of standing around St.

Mary's Hospital, staring out the window, pulling her sweater across her.

Waiting for a 24-year-old psychopath to save her.

And then he shows up and it comes.

There he is, Earl.

He turns out she's very shy and reclusive.

He makes her life a living hell.

He is insanely jealous.

He refuses to bathe.

He has terrible manners and an insatiable sex drive.

What was their date?

Their dating life like the two of them.

I think they, whatever the equivalent of the trials of Nuremberg, they went to see that every fucking weekend.

Right?

Right.

Also, Earl

has...

terrible migraine attacks that sometimes leave him unable to walk.

And one time during one of those attacks, he falls from a ladder at work and hits his head.

Fucking fuck.

Come on.

Double head trauma.

They don't cancel each other out.

No.

Now he's really nice.

That's all I'm saying.

That would be amazing.

He got knocked back into place.

Oh, no.

And he just started working for Habitat for Humanity.

Just, he was like the chillest bro at the beach after that.

That's the end of the story.

Oh, my God.

And then she went on to kill people.

Right.

Oh, I just really quickly have to say total sidebar, but talking about chill at the beach.

So Riz Ahmed, of course, is on my DVR recording.

And so I finally brought myself to watch the episode of Girls that He's In.

Did you watch it?

I love the show.

I'm Caught Up.

Okay.

He's in two episodes.

Yes.

Yeah.

Him and

Lena Dunham's character getting together.

I'm just, all I have to say is I'm really mad.

Why?

I'm really fucking.

First of all, why?

Like, she's...

Because she she wanted to make out.

Because Lena Dunham wanted to fucking make out with Russell Meg.

Yeah, she made it happen.

She was just like non-stop power eye contact.

And made me less attracted to him because

I don't like scrawny guys.

And he's scrawny.

It made me love him 10 times more than I already did because I was like,

it was like as if that was not a TV show.

And I was like, why would you pick her?

Why didn't you pick me?

I wasn't at that beach or that beach party.

I didn't see you rapping.

Yeah.

I wasn't there to make it happen.

And if I were there, I would have never been anywhere near you.

Yeah.

Not have talked to you.

I wouldn't have left early.

I don't know if you'd have to have the balls to be like, that guy is going to want to fuck me.

I'm going to go talk to him.

That's right.

I wouldn't have.

Well, that's what I love.

I mean, fuck.

I love that about her.

I do too.

I was never even a question about him wanting to fuck her.

I know.

It's just like, this is happening.

I'm making it happen.

This is a guy that's going to fuck me now.

Which actually does happen often.

Yeah.

But the thing,

I agree with all of that, but I was just like, oh, he's too scrawny.

Fuck you.

mad now i'm mad at you and her all right i should have never gone into that area sidebar but it hurt me deeply and i was surprised because i was like what i don't give a and i knew what the plot was he was such a stupid stoner it was so great i know but i love that

anyway okay listen here's what i'm telling you

he falls off a ladder because of a migraine double down head trauma

He leaves the hospital after two days because he won't stay there anymore, head wrapped in bandages.

So he's just running around on the street like a lunatic with a head wound.

Like fucking Frankenstein.

Yes.

And he goes back home.

Now he's more paranoid and violent with his wife.

She's like, come on, fuck on.

Yeah.

She's like, this was already weird.

I already doubted it, but I did it anyway.

Now you're, now I can't talk to my own brother without you freaking out.

Like, she, he would literally get jealous if she talked to her brother.

And she's 60.

Um,

so one of the articles I I read said that she had a nervous breakdown because of him, but there just one.

Either way, she divorces him within six months of them being married.

Wow.

And

although then I wrote, although I like that he was way into older ladies, it gives me hope.

Oh my God, Karen.

Sometimes I have fun as I write these things.

All right.

So they're going to get a sweet young thing like Riz Ahmed.

That's right.

But not in his 20s, doesn't pick shit up with his teeth.

No.

I thought you were trying to.

Yeah.

Definitely a stoner.

Yes.

Someone chill

with eyes that take up two-thirds of his head.

Anyhow, in 1921, he turns from burglary to sex crimes.

He attempts to molest 12-year-old Mary Nelson after seeing her playing in her basement and then deciding to pose as the gas man.

So he sees a little girl playing in a basement.

Knocks on the door, says he's from the gas company.

Her older brother, who's like in his early 20s, I think, lets him in.

He goes straight down to the basement and immediately attacks her.

She fights him off, screaming.

The brother hears, runs downstairs, goes to fight him.

He like squirms past the brother, runs outside.

The brother follows him, runs after.

They fight in the street.

Oh, my God.

And then Earl punches this kid in the head and gets away.

Oh, no.

Head injury.

New head injury.

Two hours later, Earl is picked up riding a trolley car.

He's just like around.

He's in the neighborhood.

He's like, let's go to some sightseeing.

Yeah.

He's like, where's that super crooked street I've heard so much about?

That night in jail, he plucks out all of his eyebrows with his fingernails.

Yes.

So he's already a creep.

Now he has no eyebrows.

Yeah.

He's recommitted back to Napa State Hospital and stays there for four years.

So then he's released.

And then I wrote, what do you think happens next?

A, he gets a job as an accountant, lives a productive life and molestation-free life.

B, he dreams to race his way into an early grave.

Or C, the killings begin.

I'm going to go with C.

Yeah, the killings begin in 1926.

So on February 20th, 60-year-old Clara Newman answers the front door to a man inquiring about her room's toilet sign in her front window.

The man tells her his name is Virgil Wilson.

He's carrying a worn Bible and he is very polite.

Clara brings him up to the room she's renting.

And there he turns from

kindly Bible lover to pure animal and strangles her to death.

He rapes her dead body, leaves her dress bunched up around her waist, and leaves.

On his way out, Clara's nephew sees the man in the front hall.

He asks what the man is doing there, and the man says, Tell your aunt I want to.

rent the room.

I'll be back in an hour.

So the nephew goes back to his books and they don't discover the body until in the attic room until that night.

Oh my God.

Two weeks later,

he kills Laura Beale in San Jose in the exact same way.

She is a landlady that's renting out a room.

He comes holding a Bible.

Seems so easy.

Yes.

And being like, I'm interested in your room.

This time, the difference is he uses a belt to strangle her to death, and she's found in the rental room naked from the waist down.

So then three months pass, and then Earl's cross-country killing spree starts.

So he basically does the exact same thing over and over.

Like he'll kill a woman who's let who's letting a room and then he like either stays in the city and does it again or he jumps on a train and does it in a different city.

So he does it everywhere.

So on June 10th, he kills Lillian St.

Mary, who is 63 years old in San Francisco.

On June 24th, he kills Anna Russell, who's 58 in Santa Barbara.

Then he goes back up to Oakland and he kills Mary Nesbitt Nesbitt on August 16th.

On October 19th, 1926, this is all 1926.

He kills Beatrice Withers in Portland.

She's only 35 and her body was stuffed into a trunk.

Then the next day, he kills Virginia Grant, who's 59 in Portland.

Her body is stuffed behind the furnace in her basement.

On October 21st, the day after that, in Portland, he kills Mabel Fluke and she's hidden in the attic, in the crawl space, in the attic, would you say?

Jesus.

Oh, oh.

Sorry, I thought you were asking a question.

On November 15th, he kills Blanche Myers, who's 48 years old in Oregon City.

November 18th, Wilhelmina Edmonds, 56, back down in San Francisco, then back up in Seattle.

On November 24th, he kills Flores Monks.

And then

the next day, oh, no, sorry, a month later, he kills Elizabeth Beard in Council Bluffs.

So he's clearly hopped a train.

Then he's in Kansas City on

later in December, somewhere between December 23rd and 28th, he kills Bonnie Pace in Kansas City.

Jesus fucking Christ.

Yeah, on December 28th, he in Kansas City, he kills 28-year-old Jermania Harpin and her eight-month-old baby.

Uh-huh.

He's on a serious fucking spree.

Then he goes quiet for months.

And then on April 27th of 1927, in Philadelphia, which is where he was from originally, where his parents, the syphilitic super couple,

are they're from Philadelphia.

He goes back there and kills Mary McConnell.

She's 60 years old.

Then he

gets somehow to Buffalo.

And on May 30th, he kills Jenny Randolph, who's 35.

then he goes goes to Detroit Jesus and on June 1st

1927 he kills Minnie Mae and a lodger in that same house Mrs.

Antwerp they don't know how old she is but she sounds old to me

and two days later in Chicago he kills Mary Siestima

Siestima, sorry, who's 27 years old.

So by this time, he knows the cops are after him.

Oh, they are.

He's, I mean, he's just on like a killing spree.

And they know it's one dude doing all of this.

Yes.

And the people, because these are, a lot of these are boarding houses.

So there's other eyewitnesses in the boarding house, not just the lady who shows him the room.

Sure.

So he crosses the border up into Winnipeg to get away from the cops.

And he rents a room there on June 8th.

Hypothetically.

What?

My birthday.

Oh,

I did that at the live show, too.

I can't help it.

It's the best.

How can you not?

He actually was born.

I completely relate because

Earl was born on May 12th and I was born on May 11th.

So I was like, oh, day after.

But then it's him.

All right.

So he crosses the border into Winnipeg, rents a room, and on June 8th, he strangles 14-year-old Lola Cowan, who is selling paper flowers door to door

to help her poor, very impoverished family

he stuffs her body under the bed leaves that boarding house and the next day he's wandering around to the same neighborhood in winnipeg and he sees emily patterson who's 35 cleaning her house and he somehow gets himself inside her house he strangles

he strangles her to death rapes and mutilates her dead body and stuffs her under the bed um and leaves without being seen so she's reported missing by by her husband.

And that night, when her husband goes to go to sleep,

he kneels down next to the bed to pray for strength and to pray to find his wife.

And when he goes to stand up, his leg catches the bedspread, and he looks down and sees his wife's wool sweater sticking out from underneath the bed.

So he reaches underneath it and touches the dead body of his

dead, mutilated wife.

Oh my God.

If I didn't say dead so many times, that would have been a really well-told kind of build-up.

Well, that's this podcast.

I mean, that's, isn't that who we really are deep down?

Dead, dead, dead.

So

by the time Mr.

Patterson calls the police and says that he has found his wife, the body of Lola Cowan has also been found.

And the same morning of Mrs.

Patterson's murder,

Earl left the house, went down, sold his clothes at a second-hand store, took the money that he got for those clothes, and goes down to a barber to get a shave.

And when he sat in the chair, the barber had noticed that Earl had blood in his hair.

So when the story of these murders comes out, the barber goes to the police and tells the story, gives the description, as does

all of the people that live in the boarding house

where Lola Cowan's body was found, because there's all kinds of people that saw that guy who stayed in that room.

Sure.

So at this point, between the barber's description, the eyewitness accounts from the other boarding house, Earl Nelson's likeness is distributed across every province and border town in Canada, and there's a $1,500 reward posted for his capture.

And Earl is arrested hopping onto a train.

Here's the thing.

He is a master escape artist.

So once again, he escapes from jail.

Yes,

he can pick any lock.

So they had taken his shoes, socks, and belt when they put him into the jail cell.

So he escapes with none of those things.

And that night, he finds a barn.

He hides in the barn.

And in this barn, he finds an old moth-eaten sweater and a pair of ice skates.

So he pulls the blades off the ice skates and makes the ice skates into shoes.

Oh my God.

Because he doesn't have any shoes.

I love it.

I fucking love it.

So, because he's crazy.

So then he goes when the next morning, he leaves that barn and just goes fucking walking out.

And he ends up bubbing a cigarette from a guy and chatting with him for a while because he doesn't think he can get caught because he's now been murdering women for a fucking year straight.

Yeah.

And he's standing around smoking and chatting in ice skate shoes.

And the guy's like, what up, crazy?

And calls the cops.

Holy shit.

Yeah.

Can you just,

what if someone you knew just showed up in ice skate shoes to a party also where it was like he pulls the blades out so was he walking on was still was there like that one rim down at the bottom and there were no there's no way they were his size yes like what are the chances of finding like a size 10 fucking ice skate shoes perfect ice skate shoes no no just imagine i just want to picture a friend clomping over he's just he's he's like

walking down a gravel road in ice skate shoes perfect earl you fucking idiot all right become an accountant you dumbass.

You dumbass.

So, um,

so that this smoking guy, of course, alerts the authorities.

Earl's recaptured.

He's taken back into custody.

He's tried.

Uh,

he's, after less than an hour of deliberation, convicted of Emily Patterson and Lola Cowan's murders, and he's sentenced to hang in Winnipeg on January 13th, 1928.

One report said he struggled for 11 minutes before he died

with that hanging, But then another said he died instantaneously and then made a very specific note of saying how, how, why people would die,

take too long to die if the rope was too short.

I think they would do that a lot for people they wanted to suffer.

Yeah.

Because what you want to happen when you hang someone is for their neck to break.

Yeah.

But if you, it's too short, right?

And they fall, their neck doesn't break.

They just slowly fucking choke to death.

Yeah.

Sounds horrifying.

Yeah.

Either way.

Or if it's too long, it's they're like the snap doesn't happen and this guy uh by the time they catch him and know who he is and what his uh history as the dark strangler gorilla killer uh is they're like i don't know maybe make that thing seven feet long do you know they did that in nuremberg when they uh killed a bunch of the ex-nazis They made, they gave them the long rope special.

They gave some of them, they purposely gave some, you know, 15 minutes of choking to death.

Yeah.

I mean,

I watched Nuremberg movies too.

And on your, you're Vince's first date?

On our first date.

I knew it.

I knew you two were no good.

Earl is suspected of more murders that didn't fit the gorilla killer, dark strangler, M.O.

because of those two cooling off periods.

So after his first two murders, there were three months before that spree started.

And they think that he killed other women just not either not old or not landladies or not strangled.

I'm dying to know what he looks like, what

his personality was like.

They just said he was scary.

His family members were scared of him and that that aunt that he would go back and live with, they were like, they said he was like a big kid and he was a big violent kid.

So he kind of couldn't be reasoned with.

So they just did whatever he wanted and hoped he would leave.

Jesus.

Was what the aunt said.

So the family was just totally scared of him.

So apparently he was just super violent and weird as fuck.

Aggressive.

There's actually a really good story of the aunt that time when he got out of jail, escaped from Napa State Mental Hospital, he showed up at her window one night as it was raining.

And she said he turned, she turned around and saw, she said his eyes were black and he had a really weird hat on.

And he was just staring through the window in the rain and it scared the living shit out of her.

So she let him in, in, but she basically convinced him, you better leave because they're going to come here first to look for you.

And she just got him to leave as soon as possible.

Can you imagine?

Like, it scared her.

And then even when she realized she knew who it was, she was still scared out of her fucking mind.

It's not like, oh, okay, it's just you.

Yeah.

And it's like, oh, fuck, it's you.

Oh, fuck.

Yeah.

Oh, my God.

Okay.

Yeah.

So he's could possibly, I think they said between 20 and 26 confirmed victims, but they think there could be many more because he was also all across the nation and up into Canada.

And Harold Schechter, who's written so many great true crime books,

there's a book he wrote called Bestial

where he talks about Earl.

Wow.

Earl Leonard Nelson, the gorilla killer.

Amazing.

I've never fucking heard of that.

Me either.

And that's huge.

Yeah.

The first sexual serial killer.

Yeah.

I mean, in America.

Right.

Okay.

It's just, because I thought the same thing where there was that guy, Peter curtin in germany there's a couple other ones but this guy was like the first one they think they know of in america that's a lot of people yeah dude a lot of old ladies just trying to rent a room oh man

oh

well

thank you

no thank you

And we're back.

Karen, any updates on this awful story?

There are.

First of all, the update is skate shoes was from that guy.

It's one of my favorite details of any case is escaping being naked, running, and then making skates out of like stealing ice skates from somewhere and

making skate shoes.

Yeah.

It's so funny.

I mean, it's just insane.

So in 2022, author Alvin Esau wrote a book about this case and the various political and professional issues that arose in the pretrial, the trial, and the post-trial periods.

And it spotlights the clash between Earl Nelson's court-appointed defense attorney and psychiatrist, and even the role of Canada's so-called official hangman.

It also highlights issues about the social construction of serial killers, you know, debates about capital punishment, psychopathy, the scope of the insanity defense, the effect of pre-trial publicity, and a trial being quote-unquote public entertainment.

The last, which that sounds fascinating.

I mean, like, what a book that digs into all those things that basically so many true crime podcasts talk about.

Totally.

At the time, Earl Leonard Nelson was considered the deadliest American serial killer.

He has since been dethroned by the horrifying Sam Little.

Sam Little got covered in episode 167.

But wow.

I mean, that's such a huge case and so many insights for something that you, I haven't heard about it since then, since you covered it.

So let's head back in, guys, and listen to our good things of the week.

Should we say a thing we like?

Yeah, let me think if I have anything.

Didn't you say you were watching a show you really like?

Yeah, but I can't find the name of it.

Was it fiction or non-fiction?

It was non-fiction.

It was like different kinds of deaths.

It's really cool, but I can't remember.

I'll find out for next week.

Okay.

What about you?

You say something, and I'll think of something.

Oh, okay.

Fuck.

Well,

I'll say this.

When we were in Portland, I got to hang out with my friend Stacey, who you met,

and who is the greatest.

She runs a place called Curious Comedy Theater in Portland.

If you live there,

they have improv shows there.

They have stand-up shows there.

Lots of cool stand-ups perform there.

I think Ron Lynch is going to be there next.

Yeah, cool.

She books really awesome people and we just had a really great time hanging out and it made my visit in Portland.

It's just nice to have friends and that and Stacey and my friend Jason Lopez, who I have known since I was 20.

We used to work at the Gap together.

We used to be

in the Castro together.

He's one of my oldest friends and he was there both nights actually.

I love that.

Well, I can't, okay.

Well, I guess mine is similar in that like this is the first time Vince came with me on a weekend tour and it was just like

I It just meant so much to me to have him there and have his support and just like hang out with him and

Fuck man.

I'm so I am just blown away by him and I just want him to come with us all the time and he has to come with us It was so great and I I just love having him around.

I do too.

My husband probably should, but

but that it was a really awesome experience having him there and you know how much fucking travel anxiety I have and how much I hate leaving the house and how scared I get and how worried I get.

And having him there just kind of alleviated all of it except missing the cats.

But it alleviated all of it.

And it made it such a fun time for me instead of like an anxious, scary time.

Yeah, you were free to kind of just have your fun and do

it.

Yeah.

Instead of, I think, I mean, I don't know.

It's not like you seemed insanely different than any other time.

But it is nice to know that then you don't have all those worries on your shoulders.

You can just kind of have fun.

Yeah, it was nice.

I mean, yes, I'm codependent, but so what?

It works for me.

Lots of people are also, that's not codependent.

You just have a great husband that you're grateful for.

My therapist says it's not codependency, it's interdependency.

And if it works for you, it's fine.

I like interdependency.

Is that nice?

I want a slice of interdependency.

Interdependency is good.

Yeah, it's lovely.

And he's, I mean, he's the best.

He really is.

Yeah.

He's, I feel similar to to him that you do.

I hope not.

I might as well tell you now.

You guys get along so well.

It's cool to go in the other room and to get ready and hear you guys cracking up.

But I dig it.

Well, also, he just knows his shit too.

He's has so much experience in performing.

He has experience in

merch sales.

He has experience in everything.

He does.

He's smart.

Vince Averrel, he's the, um, he's got a podcast called We Watch Wrestling.

Yeah, get into it if you watch wrestling or want to.

Yay.

Yay.

That's a good one.

Other people.

Yay.

Making happy.

Yeah, we like people.

And thank you to everyone who came to those Portland shows.

We had such a great time.

We got so many good presents.

Thank you for coming to say hi after.

Couldn't we say that someone made catnip toys of fucking a bunch of serial killers?

Yes.

And they're incredible.

And we put them on our Instagram.

And I'm not giving them to the cats because they're just so fucking cool.

Yeah, those are keepers.

Can't get, yeah, they're incredible.

I think that it's not the same person, but I also got a couple of dog toys that were, they were slip, little mini slippers, a neon green mini slipper and a hot pink.

And George and Frank have already destroyed both of them.

They were very excited to get them.

Yeah.

I love it.

I am.

Okay, we're back.

It's so funny to hear me talk about how glad I was to have Vince there, but just like he never didn't come again to a live show.

Yeah.

He then got hired on as part of the staff.

And he'll be with me this tour too, not as staff, thank God, as my husband, which is just a much better place mentally for both of us to be.

So I'm just happy to have him back there hanging out with me.

And

yeah, I can't go without him.

He's my emotional support husband.

Yeah, it's nice.

I like the fact that you...

We're trying to think of good things and you're like, I can't remember the name of the show I like.

It's just like, we're really trying to turn the end of every episode so nobody feels bad.

And it's just like, sometimes it's too hard to do.

What could it be?

It's nonfiction with different kinds of death.

What on earth could it be?

Literally all of the programming on the ID channel, perhaps.

Anything, anything on

these days, every single channel.

So this episode was originally titled Trust Issues and Ice Skate Shoes.

It's a pretty good one.

But if we were naming it today, maybe we would call it Like Pit Bull

because we were going on tour internationally and we just got to announce that.

So,

and then we could do hard stock, of course, which is my last name if you're wrong in pronouncing

slurring and non-meth.

Or we could do yes, I'm codependent, which is the whole discussion about what you just discussed with your husband.

Still am, and I'm proud of it.

Proud of it.

Yeah.

All right.

Well, thank you guys so much for listening to this episode of Rewind.

We're going to let us back then say goodbye.

Um, oh, you guys are the greatest.

Yes, thank you so much.

Thank you so much for listening and everything.

And you're the best, and stay sexy and don't get murdered.

Bye.