Rewind with Karen & Georgia - 69: Never A Mannequin

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Speaker 1 Hello.

Speaker 1 And welcome to Rewind with Karen and Georgia. Yes, every Wednesday we recap our old episodes with all new commentary, updates, and insights.
And you are welcome.

Speaker 1 Today, we're recapping episode 69, you pervert, which we named Never a Mannequin Legendary. Classic.
Just iconic.

Speaker 1 Are you allowed to call your own titles iconic?

Speaker 1 This episode came out May 18th, 2017. Let's listen to the intro of episode 69.

Speaker 1 Hello, welcome to my favorite murder. That's Karen.
That's Georgia. Hi.

Speaker 1 I'm in my element right now. I'm double-fisting, petting cats.

Speaker 1 And it's my dream. That's how Georgia parties.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 We just got back from the last

Speaker 1 weekend of our first tour.

Speaker 1 That's right. Thank you, Washington, D.C.
Thank you, Baltimore. Thank you, Philly.
Thank you. Ford slash Glenside, Pennsylvania.
We had the best weekend. We met so many great people.

Speaker 1 So many incredible people. They sent us home with so many lovely presents.
Oh my God, my suitcase was crammed. And we just gave Stephen many and many the presents that you gave us to give him.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 After we picked what we wanted out of his growth kit. Yes.
There's lots of stuff that we didn't tell him about that we're just keeping. He'll never know.
Little mustache things that he gets to have.

Speaker 1 But we did want to mention, it was very exciting because this time it felt like, and maybe it was the area that we were in. Oh, yeah, Washington.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 We met

Speaker 1 a forensic analyst. We met a criminal defense attorney.
Who listened to the show, not just on the street. Right.
Yes. They came came to the show.
They bought VIP tickets.

Speaker 1 They had a hi, hi, how are you? Take a picture with us. And it was very exciting to be meeting actual people.
What was that?

Speaker 1 I don't know. My microphone.
Oh, my God. George's microphone's leaving.

Speaker 1 They were.

Speaker 1 people who are in the business of stopping crime who listened to this podcast, which we were very, very honored by. And thank you all for what you do and for listening.
But the most exciting part,

Speaker 1 I'll talk slowly so that while Stephen fixes George's microphone, she can still participate.

Speaker 1 Thank you, Stephen. Wow, that was fast.

Speaker 1 The most exciting for, well, I'll say for me, I think for you too. Oh, I started crying.

Speaker 1 When we were in Baltimore, the Ramshead, thank you, everybody. The Ramshead, that was a really cool, like rock and roll venue.
Totally. It was so hilarious.
It was so weird.

Speaker 1 Like you could smell this sticky beer from decades past. Yeah, the Pixies were playing the night that, which we were freaking out about.

Speaker 1 We kept saying we were trying to, we wanted to leave something for Kim Deal somewhere in the dressing room. But anyway,

Speaker 1 these two guys walk up in the meet and greet and flip out an ID, their federal ID, and it turned out two FBI agents were at the show. And he knew to flip his ID open because we'd lose our shit.

Speaker 1 So he walks towards us. like in the coppest, coppiest cop manner.
I think he was like six foot six. Listen.
Both of them were. Both of them were incredibly handsome.

Speaker 1 They were two hot FBI agents with big smiles on their faces doing a bit for us. And they looked, they looked like FBI agents, young ones that, but were cool.
Yes. Not that, you know what I mean.
Yes.

Speaker 1 Well, no, they were great and they were super funny because they immediately were doing a bit about the girl that did a hometown.

Speaker 1 And Georgia, this was my favorite part:

Speaker 1 I was immediately just like,

Speaker 1 I had no idea what to say. And I was was completely starstruck where I'm like, I looked at this guy's ID, but Margaret

Speaker 1 yells across me and goes, move your finger. Your finger's covering your face.
And it was, it was just the way he flipped open his like wallet looking ID, FBI agent ID.

Speaker 1 His finger was over his own face, which is like a trick people use when they're trying to trick you into like getting into your car. Totally.

Speaker 1 He started laughing because she moved his finger. And of course, it was him.
Did not believe him. And I was like, that's a fucking age-old.

Speaker 1 old everyone knows that trick and then it turns out it was not a trick they were two real deal fbi agents who worked for they worked uh for the um anti-terrorism yeah squad i don't know if it's a thing i doubt it's a squad

Speaker 1 uh gang right the anti-terrorism gang and then the reason the other guy was with him was because

Speaker 1 um the first guy who covered his face was supposed to go with his girlfriend or fiancé

Speaker 1 she got deployed to Afghanistan. Yes.

Speaker 1 I think she was the forensic pathologist.

Speaker 1 Maybe. Yeah.
She definitely worked in the biz as well, but she was also in the military because she got deployed to, was it Afghanistan? Totally Afghanistan. And we were just like, you're, you're.

Speaker 1 The three of you are rock stars. You're living a life very different from ours.
And also we talk about what you do all the time as if we're experts.

Speaker 1 I mean, now you're here as, as like audience members,

Speaker 1 but you're actually the experts. It was the coolest experience.
I asked so many of the experts who were like, I do this. I asked most of them, are you mad at us?

Speaker 1 And it turns out none of them are mad at us.

Speaker 1 Oh, and then the cop. No, wait.
Was that Austin?

Speaker 1 The cop with the eyeball killer?

Speaker 1 That was,

Speaker 1 oh, yeah. It was, that was at Moontower, right?

Speaker 1 It was Moontower.

Speaker 1 No, I think it was DC with the pregnant chick. No, that was.

Speaker 1 No, no.

Speaker 1 Are you sure?

Speaker 1 I think it was DC because the cop, they were having a cop convention. Remember? You're exactly right.
And that's why he was there.

Speaker 1 So there was the guy with the eyeball killer that we did a couple, a few long time ago. Yeah.
I don't know how many episodes we've recorded. I'm like, this is number 10, right?

Speaker 1 He wanted to meet us. He like tweeted that he was in town for a cop convention.
And I was like, oh, God, are you mad at us?

Speaker 1 Because I, or mad at me, because I have no idea what I said about you in the episode. But his

Speaker 1 daughter-in-law came in pregnant and was like, No, he thinks you're great. Here's a signed copy of his book.
But I'm sorry, all of that is right, except it wasn't the pregnant girl that was separate.

Speaker 1 There were three pregnant girls. There were three girls,

Speaker 1 the eyeball,

Speaker 1 the eyeball killers, wasn't it his stepdaughter? Yeah, something like that. And they were, it was her and her two friends.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 It doesn't matter what. It doesn't matter at all, except except for that.
We have these great experiences with people for 45 seconds. And then another experience happens right after.

Speaker 1 It's very hard to keep them all track. But we like them all.

Speaker 1 The bummer was he was there and he waiting outside, but we had no ability. Like it was the end and we didn't have the ability to get him inside.

Speaker 1 I feel like someday soon we're going to post the Philly episode. It was the last episode and it was sweet as fuck.

Speaker 1 I thought some girl that I should be able to name recorded the stay sexy, don't get murder part that the crowd yells with us.

Speaker 1 And I put it on Instagram, and it's just so sweet. It's like sweet as in, like, sweet.
It's just like this great moment. Oh, cool.
I love, oh, cool. I love when we do that at the end.

Speaker 1 It's so much fun. It's very fun.
And all three shows were great. And all three audiences were like, one was better than the next.
They were just like, they were all so great and fun and excited.

Speaker 1 And thank you all so, so much for being there. And yes, stop asking us on Twitter.
We're gonna come to your town yeah we will uh yeah there's a planned fall tour

Speaker 1 yeah we just want to keep doing it yeah listen so saying the word australia and that's all i'm saying um that's right and say the word new zealand because that's also in there and new zealand and yes we're coming to your california no your state we're coming to your personal california

Speaker 1 anyways it's what your california is like this is my california but maybe texas is your california right yeah like who what's your california What's your California?

Speaker 1 Um, we also, thank you for sharing the news that Ian Brady is dead. That was your, your murder.
That's the Moore's murder. Yeah.
Um,

Speaker 1 I thought he was dead. Who cares?

Speaker 1 He's never going to get out. I mean, whatever.
He died. Okay.
He died. I mean, it's great because he's a murderer and he deserves to be dead, but.
Okay. Now he is.

Speaker 1 But the thing a lot of people were very excited about is the very recent casting of Zach Afron to play the part of Ted Bundy. They were excited, but there were, some weren't.

Speaker 1 Some, you know, they, you just, you guys seemed to want to know what our opinion was because you had said, um, who was the guy that you said should play him?

Speaker 1 Never mind. But no recollection, even though I remember us talking about it.
Okay.

Speaker 1 You'll be able to remember it. Steven.

Speaker 1 Steven's like, I don't listen to this.

Speaker 1 What do you think of it? I fucking dig it.

Speaker 1 At first, I was like, huh, but then I remembered, you know, he does these goofy movies, but he's also done some cool shit and he's a good actor, seems like a cool dude.

Speaker 1 And then someone put a photo side by side of like a young Ted Bundy and like a photo that kind of matched of Zach Efron. And it was just exactly what it was supposed to be.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 So if he can, if he can act it, man, it'll be legit. And I tell you now, he can act it.
Yeah. Because I may have, I may have been keeping this

Speaker 1 to myself up until this point, although I can't imagine why, because I, I love the movie

Speaker 1 17 again. Yes, he was my lover.

Speaker 1 The movie 17 Again, I believe it's called, with him and Tom Lennon, where he plays his own father. Yeah, he is so brilliant in it.
That must be the one I was thinking of. Yeah, it's such good acting.

Speaker 1 It's a Disney movie and it's a body switch. You know, I'm young again.
Yeah. He, it's Matt, it's basically Zach Efron doing an impression of Matthew Perry.
And it is so fucking great. Yeah.

Speaker 1 My sister made me watch it for the first time. She's like, you have to watch it so you'll like it.
And I have to trust her when she says that because she's always right.

Speaker 1 And it is, it's just masterful acting by him. He doesn't get enough credit for what a good actor he is.
And he tries to do interesting stuff. Yeah.

Speaker 1 My only thing was, uh, April texted me, my friend April Richardson of Go Bayside podcast fame.

Speaker 1 She texted me and was like, I know I'm the one millionth person to tell you this, but did you know Zach Efron? And she's like, and what do you think?

Speaker 1 And I said, you're the millionth person that's asked, but

Speaker 1 you're the first person I'm answering. And I said, I'm, I believe in him 1000%.

Speaker 1 He just has to beef down because he's too cut right now. Yeah.
It's like, it's that like 70s cut, which is like super skinny, but also muscular, but there's no

Speaker 1 sinewy. Sinewy.
That's it. Yeah.
Yeah. He definitely has to do that.
But he's like a bike rider as opposed to a weightlifter. I'm just, yeah.
I'm just excited to see it.

Speaker 1 I mean, there's not really a good one at all. There's the Mark Harmon one, which is fine, but it's like a made-for-TV movie.
So it's not like awesome and realast, realastic. Right.

Speaker 1 It's not, it's not scholastic. It's not scholastic.
It's not realastic. It's not bombastic.

Speaker 1 It's none of those things.

Speaker 1 I think it'll be good. Also, because I think people are just like, let's ride this fucking true crime wave as hard as we can.
So people are seeing that there's so much interest.

Speaker 1 They've just combined two great things, which is like, what are girls like? True crime and Zach Effron. Totally.
Let's do this thing.

Speaker 1 Speaking of, listen, next week we're going to talk about the D D Blanchard and Gypsy Rose documentary that's on HBO. So go watch it.

Speaker 1 And then we're going to watch it and talk about it. But it's definitely something we want to chat with you about.
Yes. I can't wait to see it.
It's called Mommy, Dearest, and Dead. Yes.
So go to HBO.

Speaker 1 It's on HBO. I think so.
I'm pretty sure it is. Pretty sure.

Speaker 1 Go watch that. Yeah.
Go watch yourself. A bunch of people have watched it and asked us about it.
Georgia did her homework. I did not.
So I didn't want to ouch you. I mean, thank you.

Speaker 1 Did you hear me say that we're going to watch it? Yes, it was. That's called teamwork, and I appreciate it.
But Karen didn't do it, and I didn't. Can you imagine? Oh my God, what a cunt I would be.

Speaker 1 There was some, was there something in there that really wanted to do that, though? Because no, I was like, how do I get around saying this? Well, that was masterful. Well, I appreciate it.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I pretend that I hadn't either. Thank you.
You took that hit. Steven, did you watch it?

Speaker 1 Not yet. Okay.
Steven. All right.
So it's on it.

Speaker 2 It is on HBO, though.

Speaker 1 Okay, good. Two against one.
Amy, Elvis? It's always two against one in this setup. On that particular story, no information is enough.

Speaker 1 So the fact that someone has put together an actual documentary and has her

Speaker 1 gypsy today talk to her. Oh my God.
There's an interview, a prison interview. And the whole time I was just like, do I believe her? You cannot tell.

Speaker 1 And then you're like, is she crying tears or is she just sounding like she? And there's so much shit. And then I didn't know the background of the mom.
So that was really fucking interesting.

Speaker 1 That's in there as well. Oh my God.
And I can't wait. I know.
It's, I very much liked it. I think.

Speaker 1 And the exciting part is, which a bunch of people told us and we discovered, the director, I don't have her name handy, is a murderino who somebody posted a thing that said, look when

Speaker 1 this famous documentary filmmaker just shows up on our Facebook page. Like commenting on it.
Like, thanks. I'm glad you guys liked it.
Yeah. So cool.
That's so cool.

Speaker 1 So we'll tell you guys who it is next week. We'll write it down.
We'll

Speaker 1 We'll talk. Imagine.
We'll chat.

Speaker 1 Oh, I wanted to say, so my, in the vein of we love it when just suddenly people like come out of the woodwork that you would never know have a murder and then they tell you about it.

Speaker 1 Like your uncle did that, right? Like, oh, I caught the fucking. Oh, yeah.

Speaker 1 My cousin Marty is the one that lifted the Richard Ramirez's fingerprints at the last breaking and entering in San Francisco, where they figured out who the Nightstalker was.

Speaker 1 And then you were like, why didn't you tell me? And he's like, why would I tell you that ever? So I have a similar one.

Speaker 1 My cousin Nancy, who's like pretty significantly older than me, you know, I think in, I don't know. And she's just like a normal, really lovely, normal person and married with kids.

Speaker 1 She teaches old people how to use the internet. Like, she's just, she's just a really lovely woman.
So she then sounds like she's very patient. It does, doesn't it?

Speaker 1 She emailed me and says, Hi, Georgia. I listened to one of your, my favorite murder podcasts today.

Speaker 1 One of the questions was something about someone you knew, new and murderer, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Speaker 1 Well, back in the late 80s, early 90s, I worked at the Peterson Publishing House in West Hollywood. One of the guys in the photo lab killed one of the models on a shoot.

Speaker 1 I knew him when I worked there, but the murder was years after I left the company. But I was the editorial assistant of one of the car magazines, and he'd come by and hand me the photos.

Speaker 1 He never smiled, but looked me directly in the eye. It was creepy.
And then I knew anyway, and at another relative who knows a murderer, loved Nancy.

Speaker 1 And then I was like, I think this is the one I know, which is such an interesting story. It's Charles Rathbun who killed Linda Sobeck in the fucking desert, right?

Speaker 1 And he said, oh, I hit her with my car on accident when I was showing her some cool moves and I buried her body because I got scared. And it's like, no, you fucking didn't.

Speaker 1 And then like they found another one of his bodies close by that as well. Yeah.
Was it in the desert? Was it in

Speaker 1 Angelique's National Forest? Yeah. But I think it was like a

Speaker 1 open

Speaker 1 thing.

Speaker 1 I don't know. Open plane type of thing.
Right, right, right. It was just far away.
Like he would basically get them to come and go on quote-unquote shoots. And maybe that was just in my imagination.

Speaker 1 I like pictured it as a desert. So

Speaker 1 that's what it looks like.

Speaker 1 It was what we know is it was far away. Yeah.
Cause I don't know. I'm pretty sure, though, that that was a city confidential for Los Angeles about the death of Lentisobeck.
Yes.

Speaker 1 And I told her, I, oops, I messaged her back and was like, I've fucking gone into a

Speaker 1 rural, rural area with a guy who wanted to take photos of me when I was younger and didn't get murdered. And so that murder is just, I know what it's like to suddenly be like, oh, fuck.

Speaker 1 This was a mistake and nobody knows I'm here. Yes.
Yeah. So scary.
And I don't know this. I thought I kind of knew this person.
I don't know him at all. Right.
Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Well, when you're young, you think you're friends with everybody. Yeah.
It's just like, oh, yeah, my buddy, that's a photographer or whatever, where it's like, where is he from?

Speaker 1 What's, does he have any siblings? How much do you know this person? And you're easily charmed. You don't bring anyone with you.
Right. You, you, you do it by their dictate.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 Like, this is how we're going to do it. This is where we're going to go.
Because you don't know to say, fuck no.

Speaker 1 Well, also, you're so complimented by the fact that someone's like, I think that you are a model. Right.
Which I totally. I admit to that completely.
Of course.

Speaker 1 Why wouldn't you? Yeah. That's a big, that's a big part of all of that.
And then the shame of like, oh, how dare you think that? I mean, it's the perfect play. Yeah.
They have you coming and going.

Speaker 1 Listen, don't do it, you guys.

Speaker 1 Unless you're at a well-populated place and you meet them there, don't get in the car with them. Right.

Speaker 1 Right. Yes.
And also. There's also, there was a guy that was doing this and he was actually going up to women at the Century City Mall for that one.

Speaker 1 And he was saying he was a casting director for the new James Bond movie. Yes.
And they had it on surveillance, right? They have him on surveillance.

Speaker 1 And he would go to houses that were being, he would get shown the house by a real estate agent. So he knew it was an empty house.

Speaker 1 Then he would have the women meet them at that house and kill them there. And that's how he got caught.
It's so crazy. Yeah.

Speaker 1 That's amazing. Can I quickly do a podcast recommendation? Of course.
And I've said, I've talked about this podcast in its first season because it was excellent.

Speaker 1 And then they, I just like listened to the second season in a fucking minute because it was so good. Yeah.

Speaker 1 It's someone knows something, which I think they're calling SKS now because no one knew anything last season. Is that the Canadian one? Yeah, with the guy with the Canadian.
Lovely man.

Speaker 1 I love him. Yeah.
So he, the second season is fucking great. It's really great storytelling.
He has so much empathy, which is, you know, hard to find sometimes in these stories.

Speaker 1 His name's his name is David Riggan, Riggan Riggan. And he's like helped solve murders in the past.
He's a documentary film. Like, it's, it's fucking heartbreaking.
It's really well done.

Speaker 1 I highly recommend it. He has the most charming Canadian accent.
He's so charming. And that first season, even though there were no hard answers, it still is such a great season.
Oh my God.

Speaker 1 It's so good. It's heart.
It's also heartbreaking. Yeah.

Speaker 1 But it's also, it never really was solved. So it's still so interesting because you don't know if someone knows something or not.
Right.

Speaker 1 And it also shows what these detectives are up against when these homicides come in it's like because you know i do have a lot of guilt about how much we talk about detective work or police work where it's such armchair quarterbacking and we talk about that a lot but

Speaker 1 it going through it that way especially that was that one was from the 70s that first season murder of that little boy and it's just like it's you're they're going on nothing they have strands they have basic bits of information and we don't think about the fact that they don't have time it's not like they have the next three months to look into this case.

Speaker 1 They have, you know, a bunch of other cases going as well and more adding up. And they don't have the time.
to unfortunately give to it by no fault of their own. Right.

Speaker 1 You know, the fact that they haven't hired enough detectives. They don't have the money to at the department.
Yeah. So that's it turns into all that red tape stuff.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 That's such a, it's such an interesting, like the fact that politics affect so many of these murder cases and how much time and attention they get, which then folds in the whole thing of when sex workers are involved and they get dismissed, or when it's

Speaker 1 appear and did she just run away? Maybe she just ran away, yeah. That that old kind of 70s, like, I don't want to do the paperwork, she's a runaway.
The

Speaker 1 uh, sex working, and then also just the like when it's a white blonde teenage cheerleader that's in high school, all of the political power goes behind it, as opposed to anybody of color, a person that's a sex worker, a person that was a drug addict.

Speaker 1 Well, what I love about this episode or this season of Someone O Something is it's not a fucking perfect blonde cheerleader she had been into drugs she was an exotic dancer you know she was had a temper she wasn't she but she still deserves to she still deserves to you know her mother is like the most heartbreaking character you've ever heard odette which i love that name um but I got to listen to that.

Speaker 1 Yeah. But yeah,

Speaker 1 it's not until, and then there's the thing too of like at the time of the murder, friends and family might not want to talk.

Speaker 1 You know, they know things, they're scared, but he's, he's, he's looking into it like 20 years later, and he's such a empathetic guy and he's just trying to solve it.

Speaker 1 He's not trying to, you know, fuck with anyone. Right.
And so they talk to him. And

Speaker 1 I mean, he's fucking great. Yeah, he's so good.
So watch someone know something second season and first.

Speaker 1 Tiny ways. It's podcast, right? Yeah.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 Hey. Hi, how are you? I'm great.
How are you? I'm really good. Is there anything else we wanted to?

Speaker 1 I guess my only the one, and I can't remember if I've said this already, but I've gotten on your recommendation so into

Speaker 1 the, now I can't remember the name of it. Which one? What's it about? The guy, the Australian guy.
Oh, crime.

Speaker 1 Mysterious wonders. Oh,

Speaker 1 oh, honey. Yes, mysteries abound.
Mysteries abound. Oh, it is just the most beautiful.
It is so beautifully presented. He, at the top of every story, he cites his sources.

Speaker 1 That's the thing I notice where I'm like, ah, yes, that's what we're, that's what we're doing. Um, but for someone who's just reading articles about mysteries throughout the internet, it's so good.

Speaker 1 It's so good. It's not his stories.
He's doing no research. He's, well, he's reading articles, but he's, it's performative and it's also, he gets why certain things are interesting.
I don't know.

Speaker 1 It's just, I've listened to now probably 20 of them because we've been doing so much traveling. It's just the perfect podcast.
And it goes all over the place, like seven interesting facts about urine.

Speaker 1 Or, like, you know, why the like mysteries about the moon, which is my favorite fucking one. It's like these things I never knew about.

Speaker 1 But then also, he's the most droning, like a most comforting voice. So I fall asleep to it every fucking night.
I thought, yeah, I was falling asleep on the plane.

Speaker 1 But then there's this one thing he does where, like, he'll tell the story and then have music in between the next ones. And for some reason, that music is super loud.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 So I keep waking up when the story's done. It's scary.
Pretty stupid. Yeah.
But I I love it. Mysteries Abound.
Okay. Mysteries Abound so good.
Okay.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 now we do ours. Do we go first based on our tour or do we go first? We did

Speaker 1 QA last time, but then we did the live show after. No, wait, we did the live show before QA, Stephen.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Is this like a reset or do we go from the tour?

Speaker 1 Should we flip a coin? Yeah.

Speaker 1 Flip the coin, the FBI coin. Yeah,

Speaker 1 they gave us. By the way, what side do you want? The FBI guys gave us these commemorative coins that are so cool looking.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 I mean, they even brought us presents. Hot FBI agents brought us pens.

Speaker 1 The best time. It was.
Oh, my God. I rarely get like

Speaker 1 dumbstruck where I'm like, can't figure out one good thing to say. And I just kept laughing and going, really?

Speaker 1 Really? And like, and Yeah, I almost started crying, which I don't usually do. And then every, like, the next 10 people who we met, I was like, those guys were FBI agents.

Speaker 1 Yeah, we just, they were like, so what? All right. So

Speaker 1 pick gold or blue. That's blue.
That's gold. This says Department of Justice, Federal Bureau of Investigation,

Speaker 1 Counterterror, Terrorism Division, and Gang. It says, no, it doesn't.

Speaker 1 The counter-terrorism gang. You do it.
The one in the middle is blue. You know what I'm saying? And that one's gold.
Yeah. So, Karen, you call it.
I'll be blue. Can we flip a coin to see who calls it?

Speaker 1 I'll be blue. You be gold.
Okay.

Speaker 1 Gold. Wait, you blue.
I'm gold. Oh, wait, but we didn't say what we're flipping to go first or last.
Oh, you get? Oh, yeah, yeah. Oh, so you get to.
Do you like going first or do you like going last?

Speaker 1 I guess it depends on the story. Yeah, it does.
Do we flip to

Speaker 1 whoever gets it gets to choose what?

Speaker 1 Helvest is suddenly really interested in what's happening. Georgia won that.
So do you want to just pick what you want to do? I like. going first.
Do it. Jersey a real big bummer.
I mean, yes.

Speaker 1 So is mine. Oh, fuck it.
I mean, it's a murder. It's like, no, mine's super lighthearted.
Yeah, there's nothing, it's, it's not like an old one or whatever, but, but it's a good one. Okay.

Speaker 1 Do you, so you just do what you want. Okay.
Mine's pretty short. Okay.
Um,

Speaker 1 and what this is, I just love it. Like, we can't even do a coin flip correctly.
No, we're talking amazing.

Speaker 1 We like recommend these investigative journalism, like fucking like next level pieces of journalism podcasts. And then we're like, flip a coin to flip a coin.
Steven, did we, who went first?

Speaker 1 It's just slop. It's

Speaker 1 so enjoyable. Slop in a charming wrapper.
Yes, for sure. You know what I mean? I mean, let's hope.
Like, what kind of candy is really gross? And then you're like, oh, it looks so good.

Speaker 1 Remember Rocky Road, which was dark chocolate-covered

Speaker 1 marshmallows and like some weird nut, maybe a walnut. Chocolate and oh, fuck, those were good.
Do they not have them anywhere? Oh, I was, I was naming it as a bad one. Oh, I guess there's no candy.

Speaker 1 that's bad, really.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I guess you're right. Let's talk about candy for a half an hour.
I actually, when we were leaving the airport, I fucking will talk about candy skippers.

Speaker 1 When I was leaving the airport, it was in that place where we had traveled so much. I was so tired.
I was so tired when we got back on Monday. And I was supposed to do a show that night.
Right.

Speaker 1 I fucking bailed on it because I was like, by the time the show was going to start, it would have been 2 a.m. my time.
And I had been traveling all week. I was like, what?

Speaker 1 And you were going to do another podcast on the way home, weren't you? I did. Because during my other podcast, Do You Need a Ride? I recorded one on the way home.
Honey.

Speaker 1 Then I got home when I laid down. All of my limbs turned to cement.
But when I was leaving the airport, I walked by a seize candy cart.

Speaker 1 And I was like, I can have seized candy. I got this voice in my head that was like,

Speaker 1 it was my birthday. I don't even know what I was thinking, but I walked up.
And as I walked around the cart, I was just like, so you're, what, you're going to take a pound of candy home and eat it?

Speaker 1 Don't they have the singles?

Speaker 1 They, they have like smaller boxes

Speaker 1 but i got around i walked around the whole thing and then i met a lady on the other side and i said there were little tiny boxes of things and i go do you have tiny boxes of nuts and chews and she was like oh no only one pound and i was like okay bye walked away before anything else happens don't they why don't they give samples in there like they do at regular seas candies because it's like a weird kiosk and they don't you know next time their lollipops are super satisfying yeah those are good except for there's too many flavors I don't like of the lollipops.

Speaker 1 Is there a butterscotch? I think I like that one. Yep.
Or coffee. There's coffee.
There's butterscotch. I mean, listen, when you guys come to California, that's our fucking sea candy.

Speaker 1 You just bring it to whenever I see one. I'm like, am I going anywhere soon that I need to bring a box of sea candy? I know.
You know, that's our Christmas thing. We're like, for Hanukkah thing.

Speaker 1 Really? Yeah.

Speaker 1 That's all we do is like, you're going to go somewhere, you grab one of those cheap pound boxes of nuts and chews, and that's like the gift. I like the soft centers, though.
Do you?

Speaker 1 This This is perfect with our like dark meat, white meat, um, turkey thing. We could share a chicken and a box of chocolates, and everybody's going to be satisfied.
And

Speaker 1 what was I going to say? Yeah, we do that too, just like a table, and there's Jewish cookies and

Speaker 1 boxes of sea candy, and everyone just sits around, talks, and eats too much. And it's the best.
So good. Uh, shout out to Arugula.

Speaker 1 She's the best.

Speaker 1 Is it worth it? I just shouted out a cookie. I love it.

Speaker 1 Shout out to Arugula. Shout out.
Just plain Rugula. Arugula.
Oh, Rugula is the lettuce. Oh, yeah.
I'm not randomly shouting out a lettuce. It wasn't that random.
It was Jewish cookies, Rugula.

Speaker 1 And that's the one that you got at Michael's,

Speaker 1 the diner we went to after the show, right? No, that was

Speaker 1 it. Stretched it out.

Speaker 1 Where are we? Shout out. I'm not sure.
Do you want to start? Sure.

Speaker 1 All right. Shout out, Mary C.
You really made some good candy. Did you get Mary? Oh, I love her.
Yeah, the little old lady with the glasses and the shawl. Was that made up?

Speaker 1 I just recently found out that,

Speaker 1 what's the cookie woman? No, wait, that's not right. Lorna Dune? No, one of those people are made up.
Oh, probably Betty Crocker. That's it.
Yeah. My friend's reading.

Speaker 1 a documentary on her. Is that a thing you can read?

Speaker 1 She told me that. Yeah.
Me. Wait, it's just created by a company.
Yeah, which I think is not fair. It is pretty fucked up.
Okay.

Speaker 1 And we're back. Can you imagine us so innocently talking about our tour weekend where we drove, we flew into one city, drove to the next city, drove to the next city, and then flew home? No.
Nasty.

Speaker 1 Who were we? Oh, we were young.

Speaker 1 We were young and naive and we're like, oh, this is what touring is. Yeah, totally.
Three cities a weekend. No, not anymore.
We can't do that anymore, you guys. Not with our old bones.

Speaker 1 No, it's a young ladies' game.

Speaker 1 Oh, and that's the live show where the FBI guys. We've talked about those FBI guys quite a bit over the years.
That was pretty epic.

Speaker 1 I think since then, we've definitely met a few people who are from that branch of government. Secret government types.
That's right.

Speaker 1 My niece-in-law, so Vince's sister's daughter, works for the FBI, which I can't talk about, but she's told me a few things. Yeah.
And it sounds pretty epic. She's having a lot of fun.

Speaker 1 What a cool thing to work, to do as a young woman. Yeah.
That's very, yeah. Yeah, that's very cool.
And so since then, also, Zach Efron had his star turn as Ted Bundy.

Speaker 1 I mean, everybody loved the job he did on that. I mean, maybe they didn't like the thing overall, but it was like, I feel like everybody was impressed by what he brought to the table.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 And we're talking about the movie Extremely Wicked, Shockingly Evil, and Vile, which came out in 2019. And yeah, he did a great job.
Yeah. He's a great actor.
What is he going to not do a good job?

Speaker 1 He's Zach fucking Efron. He's Zach Efron.
He's been nailing it since he was 11. Like, come on.
Oh, and then it's so funny.

Speaker 1 So since then, I was talking about season two of Someone Knows Something, and they have now put out nine seasons

Speaker 1 as of 2025.

Speaker 1 And the host, David Ridgeon, who we adore, also launched a new related series called The Next Call, which continues the style of investigating cold cases and bringing in family eyewitnesses and suspects.

Speaker 1 He's so good at interviews. I mean, that sounds like exactly your kind of podcast.
It does. I'm going to go download now.

Speaker 1 You You know, what's really funny is that Mysteries Abound is a podcast you can still listen to. There's over 300 episodes.

Speaker 1 But also, he hosts a podcast called Unexplained that when we went back on the road and, you know, the first time I like tuned out on an airplane, that's what was in my ears.

Speaker 1 I forgot about that altogether. It like makes you go to sleep, but it's also compelling.
And it's like, then you learn a little something. I love it.
I love it. And we love Richard McLean Smith.

Speaker 1 We sure do. He's a great podcaster.
I love his work. And a great friend.
We met him when we were in Melbourne or Sydney. That's right.
I forgot. And we were like, let me hear you talk.
Let's talk.

Speaker 1 It was hilarious. And he was so bewildered.
He was just like, what the fuck is this? Like, he was just this lovely man, got into podcasting. Yeah.

Speaker 1 You know, like, oh, I thought it would be interesting. And then he said this.
Some one of our shows with Murderino screaming at the top of their lungs.

Speaker 1 All right. Should we get into some stories? Let's get in.
So let's get into George's story about Keith Warren.

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Goodbye.

Speaker 1 Hey, speaking of fucked up. Yeah.
This one's a bummer. Okay.

Speaker 1 So on July 30th, 1986, we're in 1986.

Speaker 1 I can see the outfit I'm wearing.

Speaker 1 We're in an affluent community of Silver Spring, which is located in Maryland. And 19-year-old Keith Waddell Warren was found hanging from a tree two days after he was reported missing by his mother.

Speaker 1 Keith, who's an African-American, had been accepted into North Carolina Central University and was set to go in the fall, but he was currently home for the summer making money and saving it up to go away.

Speaker 1 Handsome, bright. Everyone said he was a good kid, you know,

Speaker 1 good in school.

Speaker 1 He did have some depression issues, but

Speaker 1 in his recent past, his parents had divorced, but he had a bright future. So on July 30th, 1986, a woman walking her dog, Dog, found Keith in a wooded area near his family's home.

Speaker 1 His body was hanging from a small tree by his neck, and the tree was bent double with his weight.

Speaker 1 The cord was elaborately hung and anchored around the base of the tree, and it was 25 feet then to a small sapling. So it was like this elaborate kind of hanging mechanism.

Speaker 1 And then I encircled the sapling's trunk, arched through a fork. The first paramedic who arrived on the scene said that he immediately knew it was a staged hanging.

Speaker 1 And so he didn't touch the body at all. He was waiting for the police to arrive.
Nice. But the officer and detective who arrived at the scene released that paramedic.

Speaker 1 The officer stated that

Speaker 1 this was interfering with his lunch break

Speaker 1 and they didn't cordon off the area and the scene was trampled. And I, of course, looked up his name and warning immediately crime scene photos come up.

Speaker 1 Oh, but you can see in the background of one of them, just some fucking shirtless dude hanging out, staring at the body. So they hadn't even taken it down yet.

Speaker 1 And there was a guy, you know, maybe not even 10 feet just hanging out. Whoa.
Yeah. Okay.
It's like some hippie dude. So this was before they understood how

Speaker 1 I don't think so. It's just, it was just, yeah.
I think when we read about a lot of these fucked up crimes, that happens. But I don't think that that was a normal procedure.
I can't imagine. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Let us know, cops from the 86.

Speaker 1 Yeah. When did they, when did they really know that you had to lock down a crime scene and no one got to come look, be near it? Like a whole, like, what do they call that? Establish a perimeter.

Speaker 1 Like, I want to know as well, when did they start wearing gloves and stop smoking at the crime scene? Yeah. cops, you know what I mean? Like, it had to be in somewhere in the 90s because even O.J.

Speaker 1 Simpson's crime scene was handled without gloves, which they definitely should have known by then. Yes.
Right. Anyways.

Speaker 1 Wow. I know.

Speaker 1 It gets worse. Okay.
Despite the obvious discrepancies, authorities didn't see anything wrong with the scene.

Speaker 1 And after a brief visual inspection, the county department medical examiner determined that Keith Warren had committed suicide.

Speaker 1 No autopsy was ordered. The body was sent directly to a funeral home.
The detective chose it. And this was all that happened.

Speaker 1 Oh, and his body was embalmed all before his mother was even aware of his death. What? Yeah.

Speaker 1 Well, that's simply not procedure. No, it can't be.
Well,

Speaker 1 back then, you didn't need to perform an autopsy on a suicide, but it was definitely suspicious. The embalming, that kind of thing is the parents' decision.
Yes.

Speaker 1 And also, he wasn't taking to a morgue. He was taking a funeral home.
I think the funeral director didn't really get any information about what was going on.

Speaker 1 So he just thought he was supposed to embalm the body.

Speaker 1 But is Silver Spring, do you know, a smaller place? Like, could they use that excuse that this was like a small town? They're not used to. From what I can tell, I don't know if it was

Speaker 1 just the community or what, but it was like 70,000 people there. Not huge.
No. Okay.

Speaker 1 But it was like a hot, it was like 40 minutes from

Speaker 1 Philly. It was like not far from DC.
So it's not rural. It's rural.
How do you say that? I can never. You're saying it right.
It's just a weird word. It's just stupid.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Okay.
So by the six hours after he had been found, his mother was finally told about it. And by then, he had been embalmed.

Speaker 1 I mean, that's unacceptable. I know.
Okay.

Speaker 1 When the family asked for his clothing that he had been wearing at the time, the funeral home informed them that most of it had been destroyed because of the decay of the body had ruined them.

Speaker 1 So they just got rid of the decayed body clothes. Okay.

Speaker 1 They were only given his jacket and a pair of brown boots.

Speaker 1 And from, I can say from those

Speaker 1 crime scene photos that I, of course, looked at all of them and almost started crying because I have to look at them because I'm a fucking weirdo. He wasn't decayed at all.
He wasn't decaying.

Speaker 1 He was found two days after he went missing. Don't know how long he was up there, but he he looks

Speaker 1 like he had gotten there recently. Like there is nothing about him that looks like what you would expect from a hanging, which is a lot of really grotesque things happen to you, right?

Speaker 1 There was no indication that he was decayed.

Speaker 1 Anyways.

Speaker 1 Later, when his mom attempted to visit the tree to pray there because she was so fucking heartbroken, she got there and realized the tree had been cut down. What? Yeah.
Okay.

Speaker 1 Taken into evidence by the police, which his mother was like, if this is a suicide and the case was closed, which it was, why are you taking evidence? That's exactly right. Yeah.

Speaker 1 You're taking in evidence for a suicide and a closed. You don't do, you're not taking evidence from the body, but you are taking the tree.
Definitely.

Speaker 1 And the tree couldn't be found, or maybe it was destroyed in a fire. I couldn't really, there's not, there's no Wikipedia about this.
There's like not a lot of shit.

Speaker 1 A lot of the articles are just, you know, the same stuff, regurgitated because there's just not a ton of information out there. I couldn't believe there wasn't a Wikipedia about this.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 So I had to do a lot of work.

Speaker 1 So Mary had doubts, but it really wasn't until she heard from a friend of Keith's that she really got

Speaker 1 suspicious. Thank you.
So Rodney Kendall.

Speaker 1 uh was a friend of hers and said that he had seen a car full of black males looking for keith shortly before his death Rodney told them they hadn't seen Keith and they immediately left.

Speaker 1 Then several days later, Rodney had another odd encounter with a high school acquaintance of both of theirs named Mark Finley. And he said he seemed pretty urgent.

Speaker 1 I thought it was strange because he acted like he needed to find Keith very quickly. And I told him I didn't know where he was and he left.
So all these people searching for him, weird.

Speaker 1 The Maryland County PD refused to hand over the photos taken at the crime scene to his mother because he said they would be too difficult for her to see.

Speaker 1 So she's asking to see them and I say no.

Speaker 1 And they said that she should have a closed casket too.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 April in 1992, so this happened in 86. It wasn't until 92,

Speaker 1 which would have been her son's 25th birthday exactly. Mary found a plain manila envelope on her doorstep.

Speaker 1 uh anonymous and inside there were five pictures each showing showing a different view of keith's hanging by his neck. So those are the photos that I saw.
Whoa. Yeah.
And so it's from the back.

Speaker 1 It's, I mean, a close-up of his face. It's just, it's so heartbreaking.
His face is so sweet and like young.

Speaker 1 So she saw the photos and she found glaring discrepancies, including his clothes didn't fit him that he was wearing.

Speaker 1 which made her think she was, he was wearing someone else's clothes. There was no decomposition,

Speaker 1 which the funeral told her funeral her home told her there was

Speaker 1 and um also he was wearing in the photographs remember he had they had given him brown boots at the funeral home he was wearing white sneakers in the photographs yeah what the fuck yeah

Speaker 1 um

Speaker 1 There was a note attached to all these photos that said, don't worry, Mark Finley will be next. And Mark Finley was the kid who said that he had seen people asking for Keith.

Speaker 1 So the family hired private detective Joe Alarcia, I think,

Speaker 1 who, in addition to these discrepancies, also saw that, and this is the fucking point of it that always gives me chills. So Keith had on the back of his jacket leaves and debris.

Speaker 1 Meaning,

Speaker 1 he, and he didn't land on his back, meaning they started to think that he had been brought there and hoisted it up.

Speaker 1 So, um,

Speaker 1 so the family also then hired a renowned forensic pathologist, uh, Isidore

Speaker 1 Nalakis,

Speaker 1 who exhumed Keith's body and did a toxicology report, which they never fucking did originally, which is insane. Right.
Like, even not an autopsy, a toxicology report is just seems like a basic,

Speaker 1 you know. Yeah, if you're just looking for information of what happened, how did he kill himself, what state of mind was he in at the time.

Speaker 1 And also just that the family would want the difference between somebody who has hung themselves and somebody who has died under suspicious circumstances, you to give the family a story of your son killed himself is a totally different narrative and says something about your son that then you have to live with.

Speaker 1 Whereas your son being a victim of a murder is a completely different story. It's just like no answers.
No answers. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Well, and someone, you know, there is something too about the fact that they saw a young black man hanging from a tree and immediately with suicide where it's like, someone said it reminded me of the old South

Speaker 1 hangings and not that old. I mean, it still happened by fucking racist motherfuckers at the time.
Right.

Speaker 1 So to see him hanging suspiciously and I saw his legs, his feet are on the ground and his legs are kind of bent forward. So he's almost in like.

Speaker 1 if he were in a sitting position with his legs forward, then it got hoisted up a little. So he wasn't hanging.
Right. And it was definitely like

Speaker 1 you know indicative of lynching yes is indicative the right word uh yes i mean yeah great but but also it's that thing of yeah that's

Speaker 1 to rush all of that away not to immediately at the scene say suicide no

Speaker 1 nope no no

Speaker 1 um

Speaker 1 yeah sorry i didn't mean to interrupt you no no no thank you that's i'm i'm agreeing with you and going with what you're telling me and it's very upsetting okay your gall yeah i will listen to it yeah

Speaker 1 gall no yeah it is okay shit man

Speaker 1 this is called uh question yourself corner right by georgia so okay toxicology report uh analysis reveals abnormally elevated amounts of here we go trichloromethane methane trichloromethane okay solvent found in paints and lacquers and powerful chemicals that are usually found in glue and solvents.

Speaker 1 So according to Dr. Isidore

Speaker 1 Mahalakis, the levels found in Keith's body were more than enough to kill him.

Speaker 1 And this is a body that has already been,

Speaker 1 what do you call it?

Speaker 1 Embalmed. Embalmed.
And buried. So there was the argument that

Speaker 1 Maybe they came from the embalming, maybe they came from the soil where he was buried. Yeah.
But it was pretty, it was pretty.

Speaker 1 The doctor felt sure that it was not that. Because they weren't chemicals used in that.
Okay.

Speaker 1 And they weren't, you know, they were high enough levels that it wouldn't have been absorbed if it was in the soil. Okay.
So, you know, it's the, it's the argument. Is it or isn't it?

Speaker 1 You know, and but the doctor's saying, I'm, I know what I'm looking at. I know what the situation was, and I'm finding these chemicals there anyway.
And that's highly suspicious.

Speaker 1 Yeah, but the, the other side

Speaker 1 probably

Speaker 1 were just as sure that it wasn't true. Well, the thing is, once you embalm a body, you can't fucking say anything for sure, which is why you don't rush to embalm a body.

Speaker 1 I mean, that one is the biggest glaring thing of that's the biggest fuck up. Yeah, what do you? Or cover-up.
Yeah. Okay.
For sure. Okay.

Speaker 1 Okay. Based on the high levels of this chemical in the victim's body, the doctor concluded that severe mental confusion would have resulted in impaired decision-making of routine actions.

Speaker 1 So he couldn't even decide to kill himself if he wanted to. Okay.

Speaker 1 Outside investigators claimed that the way he had apparently hung himself was practically impossible due to the small tree and the fact that two ropes were used in the suicide, which I don't totally understand because you can still, if you want to kill yourself and you need two ropes, you can still do.

Speaker 1 I guess what they were saying is the way that's set up. And what it sounded like is they were using one tree against the other.
Like that was, yeah, that basically you can't do that by yourself.

Speaker 1 So all he would would have needed to hang himself was one rope and one tree not and there was nowhere for him to jump off of either yeah so i don't i think it's probably you know they were like well you can you can hang yourself any way you want but i feel like in the same way that you when people try to drown themselves you you just can't allow yourself to do that there's some something deep in you that stands up or gets out of yeah there's the fight right instinct inside of you right so there's that um and then he said i do not believe that he would have the ability to hang himself.

Speaker 1 And for that matter, he would not have the ability to make the decision about hanging himself.

Speaker 1 And so he ruled the death that the death must be investigated as a homicide.

Speaker 1 The family appealed to the Maryland County PD and eventually the United States Attorney General Janet Reno for a criminal investigation into the death as well as the subsequent actions of the police department.

Speaker 1 All requests have been denied. Oh, yeah.

Speaker 1 So here's what I wrote: so, how did Keith die? And these are kind of taken all over the internet of ideas.

Speaker 1 Did he overdose on solvents

Speaker 1 that were found in his body? He was at a party with friends. Maybe they were puffing.
Maybe they were doing drugs.

Speaker 1 And he overdosed and his friends panicked and staged his death to look like a suicide to avoid police, which would make sense of his clothes being changed because maybe he vomited all over his clothing.

Speaker 1 Maybe there was blood on that. And so that's why they changed his clothes, including his shoes.

Speaker 1 and they just wanted to make it look like a suicide. Or did someone, you know, come from behind with a rag and

Speaker 1 that's why he had the solvents inside of him. So it wasn't his choice.
Yeah. Um, his backpack had some of his favorite tapes in it, which points to him maybe going to a party.

Speaker 1 That's just in my opinion, like,

Speaker 1 you know, when you're going out with friends, you're like, I'll bring some music. We're going to hang out.
Right.

Speaker 1 Because back in the, I will say this, in the 80s, you didn't, you didn't travel with tapes. Like, Like,

Speaker 1 you would make one mixtape maybe and bring it somewhere, but like, you usually left that either at home or in your car because they were just such a pain. Yeah.

Speaker 1 So he had his backpack, his favorite tapes in it, which makes me think it's someone he was going to visit someone he knew in that. What just that I was thinking about? It's like party plan.

Speaker 1 If it was a party, you were about a mixtape. Yeah.
One or two tapes. If it was his friends, he'd be like, I want you to hear this tape, this new one.
This one's great. Right.
Does that make any sense?

Speaker 1 I think so. That's off the top of of my head and clearly just speculation.
We're just speculating. Yeah.

Speaker 1 So, okay, some people thought that he may have been, and this is on like, you know, wiki, uh, what's it called?

Speaker 1 Reddit, Reddit and shit, that he may have been an informant to the police and he was found out by the local drug dealers, which might have been the guys in the car.

Speaker 1 Um, and they were looking for him and killed him, which makes sense that the cops would cover it up because they don't want everyone to know that they caused a murder. Yes.

Speaker 1 Which there's actually, I keep trying to find this murder that I found out about a long time ago. There was this girl, it's kind of small town.

Speaker 1 The cops found all this LSD on her and said, You're going to jail forever, or you need to be our informant.

Speaker 1 And the guys, the drug dealers, she went over there, wired, they found out, shot her in the fucking head. Yeah.
But it took them a long time to find out about that. I can't find that one.

Speaker 1 I think I remember you telling me about that one. That sounds familiar.
It's always stuck with me. It's like the sweet, hippie, you know, in the 90s, hippie girl.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 1 So was it a hate crime? Very well could have been. Did he actually somehow commit suicide? I mean, that's always an option, too.
It's not, it's not gone. Yeah.

Speaker 1 So in a final disturbing twist, the one person who may have been able to answer those questions turned up dead under suspicious circumstances. Mark Finley.
Mark Finley. Oh, shit.

Speaker 1 When

Speaker 1 he was one of the guys who came looking for Keith a few days before he died, and his mother had received the package that said Mark Finley's next, she told him and he said to her

Speaker 1 that

Speaker 1 he would be by to see her soon.

Speaker 1 And she said, he said, I need to unload.

Speaker 1 So maybe he was one of the friends at the party. Maybe he knew something.

Speaker 1 So one month after she received those photos and talked to him, he was dead.

Speaker 1 According to police, he died accidentally when he was struck, when he struck a curb on his bike and was thrown off in what was described as a freak accident.

Speaker 1 However, according to paramedics who were on the scene, his wounds were not consistent with a bicycle accident.

Speaker 1 His wounds were more consistent with being hit by a car or being hit with a baseball bat. Oh,

Speaker 1 man. His wounds were greater than

Speaker 1 that could have been than that falling would have caused. Right.

Speaker 1 Especially in the location where it allegedly took place. Yeah.

Speaker 1 So his mother, Mary, Mary Cooey, died suddenly in May, May 25th in 2009. And she dedicated his mother.
Yeah. She dedicated, you know, her life after that, finding justice.
They spent a lot of money.

Speaker 1 They had,

Speaker 1 what's it called? Awards for finding for information. Reward? Yes.
Yeah. Not awards.

Speaker 1 Well, monetary awards, or as we know them, rewards. Yes.
Thank you. Yeah.
Awards too positive for this. I mean, listen.

Speaker 1 So she died, never found any justice, but her, but Keith's sister, her little sister, Sherry Warren, has taken up her mom's fight.

Speaker 1 She says that even if he died of an accidental overdose, she still wants the Maryland County PD to be held accountable for actions. So she organizes marches.
She is still looking for answers.

Speaker 1 There's still rewards out there. And she just wants answers.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 Also, just that idea.

Speaker 1 It's just that thing of like,

Speaker 1 if they, if something procedurally is so screwed up that they, they're taking pictures of a dead body and there's just kind of a dude loitering in the background, or there's no perimeter on the crime scene, or there's no, or they're rushing a body to be

Speaker 1 taken to the funeral home, like all of those things.

Speaker 1 Aside from the injustice to this family and to this victim, they can't do it that way ever again.

Speaker 1 So it's that idea too, that like this, it's just that thing of the crime procedure cannot be that screwed up. Like you just have to learn from those mistakes.

Speaker 1 Say it's all a mistake. Yeah.
Best case scenario, it's just a series of terrible mistakes.

Speaker 1 Especially because those, those people who were who were there at the time are probably not on the force anymore. They probably retired.
Yeah. So it's kind of admitting, it's the thing of like

Speaker 1 when you hear on these on like, you know, 48 hours and all these things of like cops saying, or detectives saying, yeah, we did that wrong and we learned from it.

Speaker 1 It's so refreshing to hear because everyone makes mistakes, you know, and we're fucking big on the 80s and 90s and before that being fucked up in terms of, you know, procedures. Yeah.

Speaker 1 So it is, and it is tough because, you know, to be involved in

Speaker 1 crime, stopping crime, you have to be a big, tough man who is brave and faces the worst of all society all day, every day.

Speaker 1 And so admitting, get being flexible and being able to admit mistakes and all those kinds of things don't go along with that persona. And I think that's changing too.

Speaker 1 It's that thing of like, it's the no one's looking for you to be the like Texas Ranger or do every single thing correctly. Yeah.
People make mistakes. And it's like, you know, one guy

Speaker 1 on the force believes it's not what it is. He's not going to fight with every other guy on there.
He's a woman. He's not going to fight with his fucking boss.

Speaker 1 You know, you get labeled snitch and, you know,

Speaker 1 or troublemaker or whatever. From what we know on law and order and all this shit, you get put on and get desk job, desk duty after that.
That's exactly right. It's all political.

Speaker 1 I mean, it's, it's political where it shouldn't be, but wow, that's amazing.

Speaker 1 I just can't believe there's not more more on that. Yeah.
More on that.

Speaker 1 Especially because, well, it also kind of goes to show that the, I feel like in this day and age, because that is such a

Speaker 1 black man being hung, hung and having that not fully and thoroughly looked into is such a,

Speaker 1 it's so problematic and such a like

Speaker 1 the kind of thing that that

Speaker 1 I think people are working very hard to make sure doesn't get swept under the rug anymore. Hopefully.
And to be fair, Case Vile did an episode on this like in January.

Speaker 1 So it's not nobody's, you know, episode 43, he does, you know,

Speaker 1 his story as well. So I don't want to

Speaker 1 not give them a shout out, him a shout out. Yeah.
But yeah, it's fucked up, man. Let's

Speaker 1 open that back up. Yeah, I'd love to know the answer to that.
That's crazy.

Speaker 1 Okay, we're back. Do you have any updates on this case? I do.
So Keith's sister, Sherry, continues to fight for justice.

Speaker 1 Recently, taking Keith's case to a panel of medical examiners, the panel concluded that there's nothing medically to sustain a suicide ruling in his death.

Speaker 1 So Sherry asked the state to change his death certificate. The Maryland medical examiner has since reclassified Keith's manner of death to undetermined.
So it's a step forward.

Speaker 1 Unfortunately, though, Keith's case remains closed for now.

Speaker 1 But in 2024, Maryland passed the Death Reclassification Act, which requires police to reopen or reinvestigate cases where a death certificate has been changed.

Speaker 1 Sherry is hopeful that this new law will apply to Keith's case and has said that once the case is reopened, she will be able to rest.

Speaker 1 Sherry's journey to find the truth has been documented in Uprooted, a three-part docuseries available on HBO Max.

Speaker 1 And then also, Just to point out that when we covered Keith Warren's death in 2017, we couldn't have known that a nearly identical tragedy would be in the headlines again again in 2025.

Speaker 1 DeMar Travion Reed, also known as Trey, was a young black man with his whole future ahead of him.

Speaker 1 He was a student at Delta State University, and on September 15th, 2025, just so recently, his body was found hanging from a tree on campus, and police ruled it a suicide almost immediately.

Speaker 1 Just like Keith's case, questions started piling up right away because the scene didn't make sense, evidence was mishandled, and the ruling just felt rushed.

Speaker 1 Decades apart, these cases share the same disturbing pattern.

Speaker 1 Both families have fought to have the deaths investigated as possible homicides, not suicides, and both families have had to push back against indifference from law enforcement.

Speaker 1 Civil rights lawyer Ben Crump is representing the family. Colin Kaepernick's Know Your Rights camp is funding an independent autopsy, which is incredible.

Speaker 1 You know, there's a lot of black creators on TikTok that I've seen when this story broke, just getting on and saying black men do not go to trees. Right.

Speaker 1 It's, it's, it's absolutely insane to buy into that story. Right.

Speaker 1 Even for one moment, knowing even a little bit about American history, that is an insane like excuse belief that it would be any kind of suicide suspicious.

Speaker 1 It's immediately suspicious based on history. And it's also a dog whistle.

Speaker 1 And it's also where we are in this country where those kinds of things thinking that they can come back or that people are going to stand by. Yeah.
All right.

Speaker 1 Let's get into your story, Karen, about the Riverside County serial killer.

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Speaker 1 Mine's fucked up too. Congratulations.
We matched.

Speaker 1 So rare that you find a murder story that's awful.

Speaker 1 I got actually the first whiff of this that I ever heard is from the show Real Detective that we've talked about many times. So good.

Speaker 1 On Netflix? It is.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Is it on Netflix? I'm not sure. It's on regular TV now.
Like I have it just TiVoed. And so I have like 10 episodes from regular TV.
Okay, then I only season one is on, sorry, what do you like to call?

Speaker 1 Regular TV?

Speaker 1 I mean, at this, this day and age. It's just regular TV, but you can also, it's on on-demand on direct TV.
Oh, that's how I watch the one I watch today. They fucking hate on demand.
Why?

Speaker 1 Because you can't put it in a, you can't list it. You have to specifically look for something and then watch it.
Yes. You have to know exactly what you're looking for.
I fucking hate that.

Speaker 1 There's a new show coming up called like.

Speaker 1 New York Detect or like the FBI in New York or some shit. Yeah.
And they went immediately to record it and you can't. It's just, I'm going to forget it immediately.
Oh.

Speaker 1 We'll make Stephen remind you. Listen, Stephen, can you change Direc TV, please? Listen, give DirecTV a call.
You need to start writing some letters. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Okay, so Real Detective,

Speaker 1 try to watch it any way you can, find out. But

Speaker 1 the reason I loved this episode was not only because it was a Southern California serial killer that I'd never heard of, which is pretty fascinating.

Speaker 1 But on this episode, the Real Detective, if you haven't watched it, basically follows the one detective who solves this crime.

Speaker 1 And that detective is there talking about themselves in the 20 years ago or whenever the thing happened it's like doing the storytelling so it's not like a dramatic reenactment no there it's first-hand experience of what it was like for this person to to um get catch this case go through be at all these crime scenes and eventually thankfully solve the crime and there are reenactments but they're good exactly yeah because they actually hire great actors because it's not just um they don't just do like reenactments that are silent There are whole scenes that they do like scenes.

Speaker 1 Talking and everything, yeah, yeah, it's a really great show.

Speaker 1 Um, okay, so this one is the Riverside County. Um,

Speaker 1 the name of him was the Riverside County prostitute killer originally, but uh, I called him the Riverside County Serial Killer. And um, the detective's named Bob Creed, um, and he

Speaker 1 he is especially

Speaker 1 um

Speaker 1 as a detective, he is so empathetic and he is so lovely and kind.

Speaker 1 And the way he talks about all of these victims, it's the episode starts with him just kind of listing all the victims' names, like he knows all of them now.

Speaker 1 So it's that kind of thing where you're just watching a person who this was his life and this, he took all of all of these deaths to heart and the fact that it was taking place in his hometown and his home territory.

Speaker 1 And it's this incredible story. So that's refreshing because when you said the name of what it was before the prostitute killer, I immediately was like, oh, well, then they're not important.

Speaker 1 So him naming them immediately makes me think that they're important.

Speaker 1 It's not only that, but the way they present these murders in on the show Real Detectives, they really play down, if not don't mention the prostitute aspect at all.

Speaker 1 So they really are just talking about they found this victim here, they found this victim here.

Speaker 1 And when and uh, when Bob Creed talks about them, he talks about, like, he starts out by saying these were women with families who loved them.

Speaker 1 And he talks about the family, they were good families and they loved their daughters. So it's because all of the, in the murderpedia articles that I was reading, it's all just prostitute, drug user.

Speaker 1 Um, because you never know the circumstance of their life. You don't, and the killing fields do that really well when they talk to their families and sisters.

Speaker 1 But, you know, when I go missing, is it going to be ex-drug addicts? You know, yeah, yeah, because I'm a drug addict.

Speaker 1 I was a drug addict at one point, but I haven't been in 20, you know, it's like, like we did, I did a murder when we were doing the live shows and one of them called her a prostitute, but in other places I saw as a masseuse.

Speaker 1 And it's like, did she cross some lines at her job and they called her a prostitute? It's just, there's so many, there's so many nuances around it. Well, yeah.

Speaker 1 And when you boil like in journalism and this kind of journalism, when you boil people's lives down to the, to their criminal records or the like the basic facts of their lives, What are you choosing to leave in?

Speaker 1 And what are you choosing to bring out? Because there are lots of people who have been addicted to drugs, whether or not they go to jail for it.

Speaker 1 There's lots of people on drugs right now that if you died right now and they took the toxicology report, not you, but like anybody in the street, any man in the street, Stephen,

Speaker 1 that if they died

Speaker 1 and they took the toxicology report and they'd be like, well, you're filled with well-butrin and Adderall and this and that. You smoke marrow.
Topamax and pot and you and you just had four drinks.

Speaker 1 So are you a drug user? And so should your murder matter less because of that?

Speaker 1 And that's kind of like, I was really blown away because when I was when I was reading these old articles, it was one story, but the way Real Detective presents this is so different and it's so modern.

Speaker 1 And then this detective on top of it, you love him and you love the work that he's doing because it's just very personal. So, all right.
So

Speaker 1 this is like, no, that's okay. It's a,

Speaker 1 I need you to. Okay.

Speaker 1 Um, and the presentation or this, like what I've written up is a combination of me writing down things from this episode of Real Detective, but it's also, there's an article I found in Murderpedia that gave me a really good timeline and talked a lot about these victims.

Speaker 1 And it was written by a guy named David Lohr.

Speaker 1 His article was called The Riverside Prostitute Killer. I didn't get a year on it, but it does seem old because it's definitely from like the early 90s.
So anyway,

Speaker 1 October 30th, 1986. So, there's an area.
I don't know how much you know Riverside, like the Riverside City or the county,

Speaker 1 even though I'm from here. Yeah, it's like it's weird because it's about an hour and a half directly south of where we are right now.
And it's never

Speaker 1 we never go there. It's halfway between here and San Diego.
It's inland.

Speaker 1 Lake Elsinore is the big, like,

Speaker 1 this guy, yeah, that lake that's nearby is like kind of the tourist nice area. And that's where this guy lived.
Okay.

Speaker 1 But, but most of the murder, the crime scenes are in and around Riverside, the city itself.

Speaker 1 So there's apparently an industrial area outside of Riverside called Rubbadough.

Speaker 1 And it's like apparently smoggy and gross, and it's all factories.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 on October 30th, 1986, there's a man who's collecting cans around that area. And he comes upon the body of a woman who's stuffed into a drainage ditch.

Speaker 1 She's covered in blood, her clothes are ripped to shreds, and her genitals have been mutilated.

Speaker 1 So he runs, this man who discovers this horrible

Speaker 1 crime scene runs to the closest factory to get help. And the police identify her as 23-year-old Michelle Yvette Gutierrez.
And she's from Corpus Christi, Texas.

Speaker 1 And her autopsy reveals that she suffered severe trauma to anal and vaginal areas. Multiple stab wounds were discovered on her face, chest, and buttocks.
And she has ligature marks on her neck

Speaker 1 suggesting that she'd been strangled while she was being mutilated.

Speaker 1 So bad news right away. So, two weeks later, on December 11th,

Speaker 1 the body of 24-year-old Charlotte Jean Palmer is discovered near Highway 74 in Romoland, which is 25 miles away from the Gautieras murder scene.

Speaker 1 And her body was so badly decomposed that they couldn't figure out the cause of death, so they weren't even necessarily related. Right.

Speaker 1 In January of 1987, so about a month later, the naked and mutilated body of 37-year-old Linda Ann Ortega is found along a dirt road in Lake Elsinore.

Speaker 1 She had been dead for at least three days.

Speaker 1 They found alcohol and cocaine in her bloodstream.

Speaker 1 Investigators later discover that she worked part-time in a fast food restaurant, but she also had a rap sheet for drugs and sex working.

Speaker 1 Now the investigators are starting to see that they have three similar homicides where the young women are being brutally stabbed to death and strangled to death.

Speaker 1 So then four months later on May 2nd, 1987,

Speaker 1 Martha Bess Young, 27-year-old Martha Bess Young, is discovered in a ravine not far from the Ortega murder site.

Speaker 1 She is fully naked in a spread eagle position. She also had a wrap sheet for sex work and high levels of drugs were found in her body.

Speaker 1 And she, the coroner determines that she's been dead for about three weeks and she had died from a lethal dose of amphetamines while she was being strangled.

Speaker 1 So like he injected her with amphetamines while he was strangled, or like at some point? I don't know.

Speaker 1 Just that they're both exist, like, she has a lethal dose in her system, but she, the asphyxiation is what she actually died from. But, but she also,

Speaker 1 those things were happening like at the same time. Got it.
Uh, I was picturing it like

Speaker 1 at the exact same time. Yes, like he shot her up while he's with one hand on her neck, and yeah, which probably didn't happen.
Um, no, but the

Speaker 1 first woman

Speaker 1 who was found, Michelle Gutierrez, also had stab wounds, but she lethal stab wounds, but she died from being strangled. So they do think that he kills them and attacks them at the same time.
Right.

Speaker 1 I mean, it's like all one frenzy, it seems like. Jesus Christ.
Okay, so

Speaker 1 So then no murders for

Speaker 1 almost two years. And then January 27th, 1989, the body of 37-year-old Linda May Ruiz,

Speaker 1 who was known as a sex worker, was discovered on the beach of Lake Elsinore, and her head was buried in the sand.

Speaker 1 And the

Speaker 1 autopsy reveals she has a high blood alcohol level, and there was sand found in her throat, and the cause of death is asphyxiation.

Speaker 1 Then

Speaker 1 about six months later, same year, the body of 28-year-old Kimberly Little is discovered in Cottonwood Canyon.

Speaker 1 Also, she is also known as a sex worker and a drug user. And

Speaker 1 her autopsy reveals the presence of alcohol and drugs.

Speaker 1 The official cause of death is listed as asphyxiation.

Speaker 1 And they find on her, they finally find

Speaker 1 fibers and pubic hairs that are not hers. So they finally find some evidence that they can use that they don't know what to compare it against, but they're saving it.

Speaker 1 It's crazy that for that many victims, they didn't have a touch of that even. Right.

Speaker 1 I mean, not as, not so far that's listed on

Speaker 1 this article. Or that they knew how to lift at that time.
Yeah, maybe because it was pretty early. What year is it? This is in the late 80s.
So it started in 1987.

Speaker 1 So they probably didn't know what could be compared, like what could be used as DNA. So even if there's some kind of saliva or the

Speaker 1 they wouldn't know. Maybe.
Maybe.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 So,

Speaker 1 but also they're starting to, I think, compare, they're starting to keep track of these. So it's like they know

Speaker 1 they can see what's standing out on these victims as they go. And so they're like, okay, we have a pubic hair that's not hers.

Speaker 1 And like they're, they're learning what to look for and what to keep as they go. Okay.
So on November 11th, same year,

Speaker 1 a local resident discovers the body, bludgeoned and mutated body of 36-year-old Judy Lynn Angel near Temescal Canyon Road. And this is just northwest of Lake Elzinore.

Speaker 1 And she also had a rap sheet for sex working and prof and drugs.

Speaker 1 But they discovered defensive wounds in her hands when

Speaker 1 her autopsy is being given.

Speaker 1 She also had several blows to the face, and ultimately she died of having her cranium crushed.

Speaker 1 So then the next month they find the body of 23-year-old Christina Leal in Quayle Valley.

Speaker 1 Now she is fully appears fully clothed and not having suffered any serious abuse or mutilation.

Speaker 1 She had a record for sex work and drugs.

Speaker 1 And at that crime scene, investigators found tire tracks for the first time.

Speaker 1 So they made impressions of those tire tracks. Which I found so fascinating that they think to do that.
But to me, that's like one in a million chance of finding that person. But

Speaker 1 I guess it can be used once they find somebody they think is a suspect. What kind of car did they drive at the time? Exactly.
And when it's serial killing, they know they start finding.

Speaker 1 taking imprints of tire tracks to compare to the other places because they know that eventually there's going to be some that becomes a consistent

Speaker 1 impression that they're like, okay, this is the, this is the, this is the tire, maybe this is the car. Interesting.
So, um,

Speaker 1 so then when, when she gets her autopsy, the coroner finds that she had one stab wound to the heart and they didn't notice it at the beginning because she, the, she had been stripped and then redressed by the killer.

Speaker 1 Oh, so there was no through the shirt, there wasn't anything. It wasn't a stab through the shirt.
It was underneath. So the cops didn't see it

Speaker 1 right away.

Speaker 1 Yeah, super weird. Here's a weirder thing, and maybe the weirdest thing of

Speaker 1 this whole case.

Speaker 1 When they inspected the victim's genital area, they found the killer had put a light bulb up into the woman's

Speaker 1 woman's womb. So he shoved all the way up and it was unbroken.
And it was also a very,

Speaker 1 it was a very kind of different uh it was a elongated um

Speaker 1 uh light bulb it was a different it wasn't just a standard it was kind of old-timey looking it wasn't it wasn't a common one for somewhere and something exactly um so they now know that he's escalating and he's becoming more um uh you know deviant he's starting to do weird shit that seems like such a big clue that they're almost lucky to have was she dead or alive when that happened i I feel like she must have been dead.

Speaker 1 I think she must have been dead because it took, they said it must have taken a really long time for him to be able to put it up there unbroken. Yeah, because she would have been fighting.

Speaker 1 She would have, right? Oh, for fuck's sake.

Speaker 1 So he is then now, the escalation is part of, um, part of that, them knowing he's escalating is because he's leaving things behind intentionally and he's degrading them more than average.

Speaker 1 Because he, because he was, you know, the degradation of being left, you know, often spread eagle, often half naked, in ditches, in drainage, you know, in like on these places where he's just saying these people are garbage with how he's leaving them.

Speaker 1 Yeah. But now he's adding to it even more in a very upsetting way.

Speaker 1 Okay, so then on the morning of January 18th, 1990,

Speaker 1 so it's actually only a month later, but it's the next year, investigators get called to a scene east of the I-15 in Lake Elzinore.

Speaker 1 A jogger had found the half-nude body of a woman who is identified as 24-year-old sex worker Darla Jane Ferguson.

Speaker 1 She had been strangled so severely that she nearly bit off her own tongue. Oh,

Speaker 1 fuck. I didn't know that was a thing.
I didn't either.

Speaker 1 Investigators. find tire tracks at this crime scene, make impressions at this crime scene.
Amazing.

Speaker 1 A month later, February 8th, 1990, farmers working at an orchard in Highgrove find the nude body of 35-year-old Carolyn Miller,

Speaker 1 also known as a sex worker and drug addict. She had gone missing a month earlier.

Speaker 1 She had multiple stab wounds to the chest,

Speaker 1 and

Speaker 1 she also had a wound near her right nipple.

Speaker 1 They found pubic hairs on this victim that they kept.

Speaker 1 and uh, the this murder is where that episode of Royal Detective starts because they they basically come in and they they talk about how these murders had been going on, okay, and but um

Speaker 1 they just it was the kind of thing of like they would have a murder and it would be a sex worker and they would be like, oh no, and they were like suspecting that they had a serial killer, but it wasn't until um,

Speaker 1 this, I think think this may have been

Speaker 1 Bob Creed's, like one of his early

Speaker 1 like when he got put on the case was that

Speaker 1 no, because I think he was on this task force early, but I guess that the point of interest was when he got there and he was looking at the crime scene, he realized that his grandfather used to own that orchard.

Speaker 1 Whoa. And so he's starting to go, is this guy fucking with us? Yeah.
Like, is this guy doing this on purpose?

Speaker 1 Because they also, there was a half-eaten grapefruit that had been peeled, half-eaten, and thrown on the victim. What the fuck? So there was like a lot of kind of

Speaker 1 messaging in that. Yeah.

Speaker 1 He was really freaked out about. So obviously the guy was taking his time.
He was purposely,

Speaker 1 what's the word?

Speaker 1 antagonizing the police. Yeah.
That's what that's, that's where he started to go like, could this guy know, could this guy have known that this was my grandfather's?

Speaker 1 Like, he's like, we used to play here when I was a little kid. Yeah, points handle.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 I wish I knew exactly when they put this task force together. I don't

Speaker 1 have it, but basically it was like, I would say probably after the fifth or sixth body, they actually put a dedicated task force together to be like, what is going on?

Speaker 1 But they, but they never find fingerprints at any scene.

Speaker 1 They know that the bodies have been taken to those scenes and dumped there.

Speaker 1 So they can rarely find any evidence. And they've only found tire prints twice up until this point.
And no semen?

Speaker 1 Not that I've ever heard of that. I feel like they would say so.
Yes.

Speaker 1 So, yeah. So the guy's very careful.

Speaker 1 Okay. So

Speaker 1 on December 21st, 1990, a janitor emptying

Speaker 1 the garbage at a factory complex on Iowa Avenue discovers

Speaker 1 the nude and carefully posed body of a young woman who turns out to be 27-year-old Susan Sternfeld,

Speaker 1 also local sex worker, drug addict.

Speaker 1 There's no mutilation on her remains.

Speaker 1 She died of strangulation, the county coroner eventually finds out.

Speaker 1 Next, 42-year-old Kathleen Leslie Milne

Speaker 1 is discovered

Speaker 1 on January 19th.

Speaker 1 A motorist is driving by and sees her body alongside a road northwest of Lake Elzinore.

Speaker 1 She had been rendered unconscious by several blows to the head and strangled, but she had been dead less than 24 hours. Oh my God.

Speaker 1 I would hate to be the person who found her. Yeah.
So, so horrifying.

Speaker 1 So then a couple months later, April 27th, a transient stumbles upon the body of 24-year-old Cherie Michelle Paser, a part-time maid and sex worker.

Speaker 1 She'd been left in a flowerbed in a bowling alley parking lot. She'd been violated, strangled, posed.
And this is awful. She had a toilet plunger protruding from her vagina.

Speaker 1 So this is a person that is

Speaker 1 intent on degrading,

Speaker 1 after murdering, degrading these victims.

Speaker 1 And there's a couple parts in this episode of Real Detective where he is, Bob Creed is talking, and then he just stops talking and stares, and then they just cut away to something else.

Speaker 1 Because he's just like,

Speaker 1 he's remembering these horrible fucking scenes that he had to come upon and process. Well, what I noticed too is that it seems like he's getting more and more bold with where he leaves the bodies.

Speaker 1 Yes. Because he's not putting them in a drainage ditch where no one will see him put it there.
He's putting it in a flower bed in a parking lot of a like, probably busy business at a bowling alley.

Speaker 1 Bowling alley. That's just so bold.
Yes, exactly right. Because he's gotten away with it now, how many 12 times or however many, whatever number I'm on.
That's fucking with them. Yeah.

Speaker 1 So now he's like, I'm smarter than the police. I can get away with this.
I'm doing whatever I want. I can't breathe.
Okay. So

Speaker 1 now July 4th, 1991, picnickers near Railroad Canyon Road discover the remains of 37-year-old Sherry Ann Latham,

Speaker 1 also

Speaker 1 has a wrap sheet for sex work and drug use.

Speaker 1 Her hand was wrapped around nearby branches, suggesting she was still alive when the killer left her. Oh,

Speaker 1 uh-huh.

Speaker 1 An autopsy later reveals that she'd been strangled and they find cat hairs on her corpse. According to her friends, she did not own a cat.

Speaker 1 So now the investigators are thinking the killer does. Fuck.
So they take those hairs and they put them aside. What kind of monster murders women, but also has a cat.

Speaker 1 I mean, it kind of goes to show how great cats are.

Speaker 1 They love you no matter what. No matter what kind of monster you are.

Speaker 1 Monsters love them no matter what. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Okay. So.
They get their first major lead on August 15th, 1991, because a man driving a gray van picks up a sex worker near the University of California, Riverside.

Speaker 1 And she told investigators that everything was fine at first. Then he becomes angry and starts assaulting her.
And she manages to jump out of his van and run down the street. Good girl.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 he leaves, but then he stops in a nearby corner

Speaker 1 and he picks up her friend, 23-year-old Kelly Hammond.

Speaker 1 So, in this is what's interesting. This is this, I'm reading from

Speaker 1 a part of that article, But in the episode of Real Detective,

Speaker 1 when they come upon this body,

Speaker 1 Bob Creed lifts up the, you know, the tarp that's over her or whatever it's covering her. And he goes, I know this girl.
No.

Speaker 1 She lives in his neighborhood. Oh my, oh.
And he watched her and her mom walk by his house a couple times a day. So he knows her.
And that's again where he's like, this guy's fucking with me. Yeah.

Speaker 1 This guy knows that I'm working on this case. He knows these people.
Well, I would think this is someone I know. This is someone who knows me.
Right.

Speaker 1 Well, the other thing too, it's smart of you to think. The other thing too is in this episode of Real Detective, they do not mention that either of these women are prostitutes at all.
Sex workers.

Speaker 1 Sex workers, sorry, at all.

Speaker 1 Which I think is really interesting because they basically, the story comes in as this girl,

Speaker 1 the girl that got away, Um, her name is Allie Whitecloud. And she comes in and says, We are at a bar.

Speaker 1 This is how they, and I wonder if it's because that's how either she wanted it presented or that they were trying to erase the stigma of sex work. Definitely, but it's Ellie.

Speaker 1 Allie Whitecloud comes in and says, My friend and I were at a bar and we met this guy. And she wanted to go home with him.
I didn't want to. He offered both of us a ride.
I said, Don't go with him.

Speaker 1 And she did. And so she goes to the police and gives a full description and describes the van.
Fuck yeah.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 I don't, whatever version of this is the truth or whatever,

Speaker 1 I

Speaker 1 think it doesn't interesting.

Speaker 1 It doesn't matter, but I also think it's interesting.

Speaker 1 And I like the fact that Real Detective just presents it as it's a girl that almost got pulled into a van and then came and spoke for her friend to the police.

Speaker 1 With respect. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 So they give, um, they do an APB with the description of this guy, and he's the creepiest look, it's the creepiest looking picture because he's wearing like sunglasses and like a photograph or like a drawing, it's a drawing, it's a police um sketch.

Speaker 1 And the van he's driving is 1989 Mitsubishi van, which is one of the weirdest-looking vans. It's got that flat front.
Is that the one?

Speaker 1 Yes, like it, yes, like when you're in the front seat, wherever you park, it's like you're right there. I totally know that one.

Speaker 1 Yeah, and it has a weird, almost like a nautical window in the back, like a little round window. Yeah.
Like a creepy van window. Yeah.
So, okay.

Speaker 1 So now they have way more information about this guy than they've had for since 1986.

Speaker 1 So it's a huge, it's a huge lead.

Speaker 1 They put out the APB.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 so now the cops are looking for that van. Oh, they also say, is there anything else you can remember? And she says that when he opened up the back, she remembers seeing a red sleeping bag.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 at

Speaker 1 most of these crime scenes, they found

Speaker 1 animal hair, which turned out to be a tan cat, tan cat hair at every scene, and red nylon fibers, which they

Speaker 1 link to and match to the kind of nylon fibers that they find on sleeping bags. What a crazy thing.

Speaker 1 I feel like there's so many people, and this is what he talks about in Someone Knows Something, where it's like, that is one detail that you wouldn't, why would you bother mentioning that? Yeah.

Speaker 1 But that is actually really important to the case. So that's really interesting.
I thought you were going to say that he oh, that she said she saw a cat in his van.

Speaker 1 No. Well, just, it's close.
It's the other

Speaker 1 thing.

Speaker 1 But, but that's when in, you know, they presented in the real detective show, like when she's giving all that information, when she says that thing about a red sleeping bag, he's just like, ding, this is the guy.

Speaker 1 I love it. So, um, they put out all that information.
And, uh,

Speaker 1 oh, so they, the

Speaker 1 basically, from, from all of the, um, information and the victims that they've had so far, the task force knows this, that all the victims are found raped, stabbed, asphyxiated, nude, posed.

Speaker 1 They all have ligature marks on their wrists, ankles, and neck. They have one set of shoe impressions.
Um, So they know that he carries them to the scene dead and leaves them there

Speaker 1 and that he works alone. They say that if he's married,

Speaker 1 his wife would work nights because then he can just do clearly, he can do whatever he wants at night and is not being questioned about it or no one's suspicious of him.

Speaker 1 They never find fingerprints at any of the scenes, but they consistently find cat hair and they consistently find those red nylon fibers.

Speaker 1 It would be more exciting if I had said that before that, the thing I just said. But anyhow,

Speaker 1 so on October 30th, 1991,

Speaker 1 they see a man is driving along Summer Hill Drive and he sees what he thinks is a mannequin. Never a mannequin, you guys.
Never a fucking mannequin.

Speaker 1 He goes up and finds that it's the dead body of 35-year-old Delilah Zamora Wallace,

Speaker 1 mother of five,

Speaker 1 also known sex worker and drug addict.

Speaker 1 She's also,

Speaker 1 her cause of death is asphyxiation.

Speaker 1 Then, two days before Christmas,

Speaker 1 Eleanor O'Heda-Kesaris' body is found near Victoria Avenue, which is just down the street from the Riverside Police Station.

Speaker 1 She's 39 years old. She's been strangled, and her right breast is missing.
She also had a wrap sheet for sex work and drugs. And

Speaker 1 the cops are positive that that he placed her there too close to the police station to fuck with them.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 the very last victim

Speaker 1 is 31-year-old Catherine McDonald. She's found raped and murdered in a field by a construction broker.
There they find a set of tire tracks and they find footprints that match a pro-wing tennis shoe.

Speaker 1 They know now he's rushing, he's escalating because this is the sloppiest he's ever been.

Speaker 1 So they process all of that, then they go to make a next known, a next of kin, you know,

Speaker 1 they go to tell notification for the next of kin. They go to her house.
They find the front door open and the house is dark.

Speaker 1 They walk through the house, guns drawn, and they finally find. Catherine's three-year-old daughter, who's been by herself since her mother disappeared the night before, hiding downstairs.

Speaker 1 So sad. And it's the saddest part of the whole episode.
Oh, wow. This little girl who was just hiding alone in a house because her mom didn't come back.

Speaker 1 Her mom went, took the garbage out and disappeared. Oh, so she didn't even see anything.
She's just like, no, no, no, her mom is wrong. Her mom walked outside and never came back inside at night.

Speaker 1 Oh, my God. Horrifying.
Okay. So she was snatched.
Yes, she was. And which he hadn't done that before.
Right.

Speaker 1 It was out in front of her own house. So

Speaker 1 um, they have uh, all together, they had found five different types of tire prints at these crime scenes.

Speaker 1 Um, so so Bob Creed decides he asked the guy to check: is there one type of van that could use all five of those um

Speaker 1 uh types of tires? And one type of van comes back, and it's a 1989 Mitsubishi, and it's this type of van. Um, it's so weird looking.

Speaker 1 So, uh, on the night of January 9th, 1992, Officer Frank Orta is patrolling University Avenue, which is where a lot of sex workers were known to walk. And he sees that exact type of van.
Fuck.

Speaker 1 So he follows it. Can you imagine seeing that? Yeah.

Speaker 1 There it is. What the fuck? And it has expired tags.
And so he pulls it over and

Speaker 1 he talks to the driver a little bit. He asks the driver to open up the back of the van.
The driver says, sure, no problem. He opens it up.

Speaker 1 there's a red sleeping bag there and the officer places him under arrest now they bring him into the station and somebody immediately starts questioning him they don't wait for bob creed who is the head of this task force for like five fucking years they don't wait for him to come down to question him just whoever was there i i don't know exactly how it happened so The guy they arrest immediately is like, I want a lawyer.

Speaker 1 I'm not saying anything. Son of a cunt, man.
So Bob Creed doesn't even get to question him. Oh.
But here's what they end up finding out: that the guy, the driver of this van, is a man named Bill Suff.

Speaker 1 He was born August 20th, 1950, in Torrance, California.

Speaker 1 According to his high school classmates, he was friendly, a skillful musician, and he graduated 87th in a class of 144.

Speaker 1 So not a, you know, C sounds like a C minus student.

Speaker 1 His brothers were very troubled. One of them was a drug addict.
The other other

Speaker 1 was a pedophile. Ooh.

Speaker 1 Suff ended up living in Texas. And there, in 1974, when he was 24 years old, he and his former wife were arrested and later convicted for the beating death of their two-year-old daughter.
Are you?

Speaker 1 Fucking kidding me. He was there sentenced to 70 years in prison, but he was paroled after serving 10 years.
Why? No.

Speaker 1 His wife served 20 months, but her conviction was overturned when it was found that he was fully responsible for the beating death of a two-year-old child.

Speaker 1 Can you imagine not only having your child beat to death by your husband, but then getting sent to, being held responsible and sent, like she's mourning in the most painful way. And then

Speaker 1 she goes to jail. And in jail, you hurt your own kid.
If you're in jail for hurting your own kid, you're like a pedophile. Right.
In man's jail. Jesus.
I mean, they are like tortured. And

Speaker 1 so, yeah, she didn't, she spent over a year in prison as a baby killer. Oh, yeah.
Um, so

Speaker 1 so when Bill Suff is paroled, he goes back to Southern California and he gets out of Texas and he then gets a job. He's now 41 years old.
He gets a job as a stock clerk. Um, and he is known to

Speaker 1 be a writer of books. He likes to drive fancy cars.
He does community service work. He also likes to impersonate police officers.
Of course, he does.

Speaker 1 His neighbors described him as a friendly nerd who was always doing things to help people.

Speaker 1 What the fuck? Yeah.

Speaker 1 So basically, now Bob Creed is scrambling to find evidence they can hold him on because they finally have him in custody, but

Speaker 1 he's going to get out and more women are going to die. So they

Speaker 1 look into his background. They find out that he works for Riverside County Supply.
So he is a clerk at the supply company that supplies desks and chairs for the Riverside Police Department.

Speaker 1 So when they were putting together the task force and building the task force,

Speaker 1 every time they would order a desk or some chairs or a chalkboard,

Speaker 1 Well, Bill Suff was the guy that would come and deliver it straight into the room where they were investigating his

Speaker 1 serial murders. I bet he enjoyed that so much.
He not only enjoyed it, he knew exactly what they were doing.

Speaker 1 So the first time they knew that they had tire impairments, he changed the tires on his van.

Speaker 1 Every time he would go in there, because they were constantly, at one point they said,

Speaker 1 Some officers working on the case asked him if they could use his phone and made a phone call on his phone trying to track something down for the murders he was committing. So he was

Speaker 1 just this neutral face in the background that they saw as like, oh, that's the delivery guy. That's the clerk guy.

Speaker 1 But meanwhile, he was all eyes and ears. Every time he was in that room, he

Speaker 1 was looking at everything. He was memorizing all of it.
He knew exactly what they were doing and he knew who they were. Which is weird that he then didn't get rid of the red sleeping bag, kind of.

Speaker 1 Right.

Speaker 1 That must not have been a prominent thing up on the board, but it's so amazing because they, they, in Real Detective, they set it in really perfectly where he's in the bat when, like, the first time they have the task force meeting, Bob Creed clears the room and then starts telling everybody blah, blah, blah.

Speaker 1 Well, Bill Suff is one of the people he asked to leave the room. No, so he's in there, like he's working side by side with an alarm, like near the police.

Speaker 1 Um,

Speaker 1 so

Speaker 1 Bob Creed gets a search warrant for Bill Suff's house. And when he arrives there, he's surprised to meet Bill Suff's 18-year-old wife.
Oh, God.

Speaker 1 So this is where it all comes together. She tells the detective she works nights.

Speaker 1 He's standing in their kitchen. She offers to make coffee.
She's like, I need coffee because I'm so tired because I was up all night. He's like, oh, you work nights.
A tan cat runs through the room.

Speaker 1 He looks over and sees a pair of pro-wing tennis shoes over in the corner where all the shoes are by the back door.

Speaker 1 So when he's looking out the window, he sees a truck bed that's filled with tires. And he's like, what's up with the tires? And she's like, oh, he's always out there changing the tires on that van.

Speaker 1 So he was changing the tires. Anytime he would see them get a tire imprint, he would change the tires on his van.

Speaker 1 Then the kicker is, he looks at the lamp that's hanging over the kitchen table. My God.

Speaker 1 Tips it up and sees it's exactly the same kind of light bulb that was left inside his victim.

Speaker 1 And he's like, this is, we're here. So he, um, essentially they arrest him, they get him.
He is tried and convicted for 12 counts of first-degree murder and one count of attempted murder.

Speaker 1 The jury deliberated for 10 minutes. Oh my God.
And they came back. They gave him the death penalty.
He's on, he's still on

Speaker 1 death row in San Quentin to this day. And the police believe he's responsible for 22 murders, if not more, in Riverside County.
I wonder what, you know, he was gone for those two years.

Speaker 1 I wonder where he went and what happened at that time. You mean where there was no bodies found? Yeah.
Yeah. Or yeah, there was no bodies found for two years.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 Because that's a long time. And he usually it just goes faster and faster.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 And Bob Creed, who I have to say is just like one of those, I feel like detectives are those, they're like, all the good cops become detectives.

Speaker 1 It's like the ones that are on the street that are good at it and they're smart. And they care.
Yeah. And they get promoted and they become detectives.

Speaker 1 And he so clearly was one of those people that like treated these women like his neighbors and his friends.

Speaker 1 And he, when he talks about going to talk to Kelly Hammond's mother, it's like a big part of that episode where he's like, we know these people.

Speaker 1 We have to tell them we have to now change their life for the worse by us being there and being like, your daughter's dead. Yeah.

Speaker 1 He eventually, Detective Bob Creed eventually became the head of major crimes, the major crimes unit in Riverside County.

Speaker 1 Yeah. And that's the Riverside serial killer.
Wob's fucking crazy.

Speaker 1 And I have no idea. Good job, dude.
Thanks. I know.
I had no idea either. Like, Riverside is close by.
Yeah. And I've never heard of that guy.

Speaker 1 It's so funny. Like.
The way you find these murders now, I just put in the weirdest searches and you still don't know anything

Speaker 1 that's going on. Also, I do do find it fascinating.
Like,

Speaker 1 they know almost nothing about this guy's childhood, which I would love to know because obviously it was insanely fucked up.

Speaker 1 If his two brothers are insanely fucked up and he is the worst of all of them, I would love to know what kind of evil and insane parents they had and what that situation was. But

Speaker 1 I really love that show for how much it really shows, it's like the side that you never get to hear, which is these detectives and like the experience experience that they go through and the years sometimes that they spend trying to find these killers it's just

Speaker 1 it's so insane there's there's the one on the killer that you did the the guy oh yeah ben um mendelsohn uh

Speaker 1 no his last name is ben something

Speaker 1 oh uh child

Speaker 1 jonah yes yes yes um that wasn't even what i was saying and you knew what i was saying um i'm so shocked that i knew that and it i what i like about that show too is that it uh it gives you little glimpses into the ptsd that you know they have and so they're not trying to be like this is what happened it's like you the one i the one i did he starts crying yes no they suffer terribly i mean jesus like that guy having to it was like a child killer that had multiple victims yeah

Speaker 1 and every story was horrible and that one is especially great because the way he he just the way he eventually finds him is he starts walking the path that those children were taking to school and he finds Bar Jonah standing in a security guard outfit at the end of one of those alleys.

Speaker 1 This is why you make them move their finger from the photo. That's right.
This is why you fucking do it. That's exactly right.

Speaker 1 If someone knocks on your door, if you get pulled over and they're holding up a badge, you fucking call that number into the police department and make sure it's real before you. Yeah.

Speaker 1 I guess if you're on a rural area, if you're alone in the house. Now you're finding reasons to say rural.
God damn it. I am.

Speaker 1 you're right rural you can say farmland you're in farmland out in the country out in the country do not you don't have to

Speaker 1 you don't have to well you get to check first it's your right and like i'll tell you what and those fbi agents flip that the one guy flipped open i his quiet friend behind him i was like what are you doing it kind of looked like they were coming for us

Speaker 1 a little bit but the you don't look at the id when someone flips a thing like that that at you, you look at the badge, you look at the thing where you're like, oh, this is a real cop, and you get all caught up in the kind of like the gold badge part.

Speaker 1 I wonder if you're allowed to say, hand me that, and I want to look at it. What's your name? What's your this? What's your that? Well, a real cop would give it to you.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 What would they have to lose? Yeah.

Speaker 1 Totally. I mean, they would want you to believe they were a cop.
It's why they're showing it to you.

Speaker 1 Listen. Hey, be cautious instead of everyone listening.
Is like, we are. Yeah, you've already taught us that.

Speaker 1 We know

Speaker 1 we did that before. Oh, my God.
That's all this podcast is. I know.
Just warning you and scaring you and giving you anxiety and then telling you how to get rid of your anxiety.

Speaker 1 Okay, we're back. Karen, are there any updates? There are.
This is such obviously another horrible moment in time. So this correction is awful as well.

Speaker 1 When Suff murdered his daughter, I said that she was two years old. She was actually two months old.
Jesus Christ.

Speaker 1 Also in 2024, investigators linked Bill Suff to the 1986 cold case killing of a 19-year-old Southern California woman named Kathy Small.

Speaker 1 They did that using DNA from Kathy's clothing and the rape kit that was collected after her murder. And when detectives interviewed Suff about the DNA match, he confessed.
He remains on death row.

Speaker 1 He's 75 years old. Wow.
Yeah. All right.
Well, this was such a dark episode. Yeah.
Let's go back and hear what we had to say about our good things of the week way back in 2017.

Speaker 1 What's a positive thing from this week?

Speaker 1 I fucking totally knew it at some point, and now I forgot it. What's yours?

Speaker 1 I would just say that this

Speaker 1 past birthday was like one of the best birthdays I've ever had

Speaker 1 because I'm at the age now where like, I honestly don't care about birthdays. So the last couple have been super low-key, if not totally doing nothing.

Speaker 1 You didn't even fucking, we were recording that day and you didn't tell me. I know.
I mean, I don't remember. Well, but why would you? I mean,

Speaker 1 you should have told me, but you didn't care. So you don't.
Yeah. But, but that was my in my mind.
I was like, it doesn't matter and I don't care.

Speaker 1 But it's actually not true because you, well, first of all, so many people because of your tweet responded to the lovely tweet you sent to me about my birthday.

Speaker 1 But there were just so many nice things and not just

Speaker 1 people that listen to the podcast, but then like my actual friends knew and said lovely things. And it's like, when you actually give people a chance to do that, if they want to,

Speaker 1 then they do. And it's really nice.
And it makes them feel good, too. Yeah, exactly.
It's just,

Speaker 1 it was just lovely. And we had that fun dinner and watching in DC.
Yeah. That was so nice.
Like,

Speaker 1 what if I just threw up

Speaker 1 for no reason? It was just like a really lovely kind of

Speaker 1 redefining birthday experience. I love that.
Yeah, it was nice. Happy birthday.
Thanks. Congratulations.
Thanks so much. Way to go.

Speaker 1 Something I love or I'm happy about is when Stephen babysits the cats when we go out of town. It just makes me so happy because I know they love him and they like hanging out with him.

Speaker 1 And I know this because

Speaker 1 Stephen, the first couple of days of us being gone, Stephen babysat them and sent me photos constantly. And I could tell they were happy and they don't run away when he comes in.

Speaker 1 And then my dad was going to stay at our place for the rest of the weekend. And so Stephen left.

Speaker 1 And when my dad, who doesn't like cats, came in the door, he said, oh, Elvis came out at first and then ran away immediately.

Speaker 1 And I think he thought my dad was Stephen and got excited because the guy who gives him all the cookies was there.

Speaker 1 And then realized it was my dad ran away. So thanks, Stephen.
It means a lot to me that to have someone there who

Speaker 1 I really, I know, loves my cats. Yeah.

Speaker 2 I mean, I just have the best time. And like, I've always told you that, like, I'll come over here.
You're always like, you and Vince are always like, come do some work, hang out for a while.

Speaker 2 And then I end up just hanging out with the cats.

Speaker 1 I can't get anything done.

Speaker 2 It's just pictures of Elvis, good pets.

Speaker 1 Yeah. I love it.
Have a good time.

Speaker 1 You have my Instagram password for the cats, too. So I'm like, fucking go for it.
It's great.

Speaker 1 Thank you. So thanks for doing that.
And yes, I pay him. Don't worry.
I'm not.

Speaker 1 You get paid in loving, and Mike's being nice to you. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Okay, we're back. Stephen no longer watches my animals when I'm gone.
I'm sorry to say that we couldn't let him anymore because he worked for us.

Speaker 1 So my friend's been doing it since then, my friend Crystal. So Stephen just gets pictures of the animals.
That's right.

Speaker 1 Sorry, Stephen. All right.
So this episode was originally called Never a Mannequin, which is a hard one to top. Yeah.
We could call it, What Do Girls Like?

Speaker 1 Combining True crime and Zach Efron is what you meant by that, and you are not wrong. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Or flip a coin to flip a coin, which was Georgia talking about our lack of professionalism compared to, say, the other investigative podcasts that we are fans of. And not them.
Yes.

Speaker 1 And never happened. Never tried to.
Or we could call it reasons to say rural. Oh, I hate that word so much.

Speaker 1 There's always a reason to say it. Yeah.
Get in there. All right.
Well, thank you guys for listening to Rewind. Let's go back in time and we'll let Elvis say goodbye to you from 2017.

Speaker 1 You guys, thanks for listening. Yeah, we really appreciate it.
And you guys are, this is the best. I can't, this is the best.
It's pretty nice. It is.
Yeah, I like it. All right.

Speaker 1 Well, you guys stay sexy. And don't get murdered.
Elvis?

Speaker 1 You want a cookie?

Speaker 1 Okay, bye. Bye.

Speaker 1 No one brings out your inner monster like a bad neighbor. Claire Danes and Matthew Reese find that out for themselves in The Beast in Me.

Speaker 1 A new eight-episode drama from the team that brought you homeland. Danes plays Aggie Wiggs, a grieving writer.
Reese plays Niall Jarvis, her new neighbor and possible murderer.

Speaker 1 But who's the monster and who's the bad neighbor? That's another story. It's a game of cat and mouse that sets them on a collision course with fatal consequences.

Speaker 1 The Beast in Me, now playing only on Netflix. You will not want to miss this.
Goodbye. Goodbye.
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Speaker 1 I put some of their beautifully flawless foundation on one of my hands and so now one of my hands looks 10 years younger than my other hand.

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Speaker 1 The real clean beauty. Goodbye.

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Speaker 1 Order from the Home Depot on Uber Eats. Use code DEPO30.
And December 31st, exclusions may apply. Terms and minimum order apply.
See App for details. Goodbye.
Bye-bye.