Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 33: What About Mimi?

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My Savior And that means we're recapping one of our old shows with all new commentary, all new updates, which I don't think there can be old updates, and insights about one of the old shows we did long ago. That's right.
One of the old eps. And today we're looking back at episode 33, which we actually named, What About Mimi? She's been a big part of this podcast for nine whole years, that Mimi.
That's right. She's holding on, too.
She's living through it. Her and Frank.
So join us today as we take you back to the 252nd day of 2016. That's right.
Thursday, September 8th. And now we can all be day one listeners.
So let's listen to the intro of episode 33 What About Mimi?

Hi Hi

Oh no

That's how we started it this week. Hi, everybody.
Hi. Are you there? Hello? Hey, that's Karen.
Who's this? That's Karen. Oh, and that's Georgia.
Thank you. These are our voices if you can't tell them apart.
Oh, yeah, you do yours. Okay.
Hi, gasp into the microphone a lot hi this is karen i sing and uh it lie and this is my favorite murder uh which is a podcast where we talk about murders that happen that interest us and intrigue us and hopefully uh make your time at work in the swimming pool or on a darkened road while you take a walk, go by a little bit faster. You're welcome.
Goodbye. Oh, that was it.
It's such an effort to do like an official beginning of this fucking podcast. Let's get into it.
Let's fucking get into it. Let's pass it all by.
All right. Okay, so this is the thing we wanted to talk about that I said don't fucking talk to me about until our podcast.
That's right. She's very stern.
I'm very stern. So Jacob Wetterling has bought this, what is he, 13-year-old kid who went...
He was kidnapped. It was him, his brother, and a friend.
They were riding bikes to the store and a guy held held them a gunpoint and told the other two to run away and took jacob 1989 which we have said many times that the 80s are going to be under arrest for being fucking shitty it was not a good time for us as children well speaking of i just watched a documentary that is now now on Netflix over the weekend called Who Took Johnny. I stared at that all weekend going, watch it, Karen.
This is supposed to be your thing. And I couldn't bring myself to watch it.
Why? Because I've heard them talk about it on last podcast on the left. And it is so dark and it's so creepy and it is so not your average kidnapping.
I just didn't want to have to take it in i agree there's a lot of information the thing i took away from it uh hold on um the johnny god i'm fucking running the thing i took away from it is that his mother and like this is the only positive thing is the biggest badass in the fucking world Mm the whole thing like kind of centers follows her around and what she had to go through like when her son got kidnapped and when the police 72 hour waiting period for this little boy who in the dark on his paper route in the morning, his papers were left behind,

his adorable dachshund was left behind,

which why would you do that?

And they said they thought he ran away.

So she had to go to great lengths for years and years

and became an advocate,

just like John Walsh's,

but without a TV show for children.

And it's amazing what she's done.

I can't take it in. You got to watch it.
And I just, I'm so tired. I'm so tired.
I'm sorry. No, that's okay.
Well, the Franklin cover up comes into play. It's so hard to believe.
I have such a hard time with so many of these, like there's two things. One of them is that a guy gets arrested and says that he was one of the people who took Johnny Gosch and he became a sex slave.
Right. And the other thing is that the mom says that she saw him, Johnny.
As an adult. As an adult.
Yeah. Came to her door.
Right. And those two things, like if you believe them both, it's a fucking insane story.
If you don't, then it's a fucking insane story because people are crazy. Yeah.
Everything about it is, you know, it's, if it was just everything peeled away of just the facts that you actually know, it's an intense tragedy of just a child disappearing. There's, it's the worst case scenario because then you're a grieving parent who never gets relief and what that must do to you.
But then there's also the thing of, it's just like, I think the reason people like stranger things or whatever, it's that thing of, well, then you must be crazy if you are in grief to this degree. Yeah.
You, and of course with the mothers, with women, it's always, you're crazy're crazy yeah and so a woman trying to get answers and get her child help and get some action when she's being deemed crazy which is the ultimate stamp that people can negate you and your voice with yeah she was saying that too like men men are stern but women are shrill you Yeah, it's the patriarchy. It's the standard bullshit.

And yet she was able to change laws and be an advocate for children who have gone missing and turn her grief into something useful and worthwhile.

Not that grief is not those things, but.

No, that's great.

That's amazing.

That's a huge up swing.

She's amazing.

Yeah.

I think that's great. That's amazing.
That's a huge up swing. She's amazing.
Yeah, I definitely, I know it's a hard, it's a hard case, but it's a really good documentary. Fine, I'll watch it.
Fine. Fine, fine, fine.
Quit your four jobs that you have and stay home and watch Who Took Johnny. Here's what I did too.
And, but sorry, we started that by mentioning that Jacob Wetterling's remains were finally found. So his parents have rest.
And there was a lot of people who sent us that. It makes me really happy that people send us those articles and they're so, you know, enthusiastically like, oh, it's such a nice idea to think that after all these years, those at least at the very least, those parents have a little bit of rest.
Yeah. And a little bit, like, just at least they know where he is.
Well, I was, so I read that about him being found and they hadn't released a lot of details about it. Now there's more stuff coming out, like the guy confessed to it and that's how they found the body.
but so the whole time I was watching who took Johnny I was just in all these twists and turns that maybe was this and it could have been this and he might be still alive and an adult and all these things and I couldn't help but just like picture his this sad his bones buried somewhere remote as in the exact same way he looked when he got taken and these crazy stories of what happened that are just not true and in the meantime these lonely bones somewhere it just made me sad I know it's it's so tragic it's heavy heavy shit uh that's why I'm going to clumsily segue now into my next piece of housekeeping because let's not live there forever I'm sorry, did I get too dark? Not at all, no, this is what we like But we can't just like, you know We have to continue I have an apology to make for anyone Who heard me talk shit about The British procedural rosemary and Thyme. Because what I did this weekend was watch probably 20 episodes of Rosemary and Thyme, which is a hilarious, it's not supposed to be hilarious, but I found it so enjoyable, so relaxing.
It's two like middle-aged British women who are gardeners and they go, they keep getting hired. It's very murder.
She wrote it, except there's two of them. And these two are so enjoyable to watch the murders, which is ludicrous.
There's always two murders everywhere they go. People are dropping like flies.
No one cares. They're never suspected, but, but half of more than half of the show, it takes place in the most gorgeous gardens you've ever seen so there's a real like you can see them aiming at like probably like a 60 year old lady who's going to sit in her chair at night knit eat some candy and watch this show that sounds fucking amazing i was that lady this weekend and i fucking loved it i was so relaxed you have to see it it's, but one time someone asked me about British procedurals and someone recommended Rosemary and Thyme and oh, was I flippant about how that was grandma, grandma crime show.
And I don't care. Well, I'm, I apologize.
Whoever I said that to, I am 1000% wrong. I love Rosemary and Thyme with the best of.
And Pam Ferris and, oh, I wrote their names down because Felicity Kendall and Pam Ferris are the two stars. They're so goddamn good.
And Pam Ferris went on to star in a show called Call the Midwife, which I also love. Which one was she? She is the nun that wears the habit all the time.
She's like all business nun. She looks like every every one of my family i love that show call a midwife i love call the midwife and she's she's like holds it down on there so she's been on british tv for like 40 years it sounds like a combination of uh murder she wrote and the great british bake-off yes where you're just kind of being soothed by british, a little violence, gorgeous flowers.
I mean, you can't have one without the other. And you shouldn't.
And also, what I love is in a British procedural, you will watch them casually drinking tea. And I just love the fact that people cut out time in the day, drink tea and eat cookies.
I think there's bourbon in there.

Why am I just saying that because I just had bourbon in there?

I mean, it's probably everywhere.

I mean.

Deep down.

I mean.

As you uncapul.

This is all just like vodka.

100 grain vodka.

Other housekeeping?

Housekeeping?

I think the Rosemary and Thyme apology was my number one housekeeping pretty much this week. That was correction corner.
Yeah, that was a huge correction. Because also, once again, I've gotten it wrong with England.
Oh, hey, we're in Entertainment Weekly. Oh, hey.
Guess what? Right. We just found this out tonight.
Yeah. Someone very nice here.
I'll look them up. Let's give them a yield shout out.
They were like a stage mom that I've never had that gave a shit. It's D-Train.
Of course, D-Train's there for us. Thank you, D-Train.
At D-Train writes, hey, did you see this show in Entertainment Weekly? Congrats. And the answer was no, we absolutely had not.
We didn't know it was going to be in there.

We're in there with Atlas Obscura, which is a rad website.

We're in there with a band called Sunlit Youth.

I'm sure young people love them.

I'm sure that they're cool.

It's like a bunch of dudes in stretched out white t-shirts with really sparse facial hair.

Can I read you my text exchange about it with my dad?

Please. So I sent him the photo that D-Train sent us.
And I said, my podcast is in Entertainment Weekly. Because you know the only thing that seems legitimate is if it's on television or in a magazine.
That's right. Like it doesn't matter if you're on the website.
That's right. And he said, OMG.
Wonderful. Very proud of you.
Go girl. Marty.
And he said, comedian. I like the sound of that.
And I said, me too. And he said, is this on Facebook? I'd like to share it.
Daddy. That's your job, dad.
Thanks, dad. Go ahead and throw that up on Facebook with a baby picture.
Let's see it. Yeah.
Well, that's funny because I texted my my sister adrian and audrey who are my hometown posse and all fans of the show not laura she doesn't listen to it my sister doesn't give she's like i don't have time a fact and i literally have told her when she can listen to i'm like when you drive after you drop off your daughter my sister-in-law is the only who listens to it. My family, like my not related person is the only one who can hear my voice.
I love it. Hate me.
Well, Audrey and Audrey and Adrian both totally listened to it. So I went on to our nonstop constant group text and just went, Hey, you guys look up, we're in Entertainment Weekly.
No one answered for a while. And then Adrian responded, what what magazine is that i'm like i don't make me fucking say it twice wow and then no one answered for a while and then i had written will someone um please go buy one and give it to my dad yeah and so then nobody answers for a while and then adrian comes back and goes laura are you on that you're like hello yeah i was like this is classic and then i was like sorry for bragging and then my sister called me of course i'm so proud of you yeah i sent it to my mom and dad i haven't heard a word from my mother well hates me no i'm just kidding uh can i just shout out yolanda my sister-in-law and how sweet she is because she Because she listens? Yeah.
I know. Was she at the wedding? Of course.
I may have met her. Yeah, she's a doll.
Thanks, Yolanda. You're the most important kind of family, which is the family that listens to the podcast.
That doesn't hate you for cracking an egg over their head when you were five. That's right.
There's no grudges. Nope.
No old grudges with those in-laws. All I've been in her mind is a great aunt.
Good time party gal. Probably a good gift giver, I would say.
I'm terrible at gift giving. She's a great gift.
I'm a piece of shit. What, gift cards? It's all Starbucks gift cards everywhere? I just forget.
Yeah. More than that.
I try to make it seem like as if I'm a Seventh-day Adventist, I don't give gifts. I don't either.
Karen doesn't do that. Can we agree, and we did this on our last birthdays, that we don't give each other gifts? Let's not do that to each other.
Never. No.
I might pick you up something if I see it. Yeah, totally.
It's like, let's show Karen. All year round.
Yeah. But if it has to be on your birthday, I'm going to let you down.
I don't want you to be stressed out and then feel guilty no way i don't even we podcasted on your birthday and i didn't even know it was your birthday because i don't want to put that shit on people i'm so old at this point i didn't know i know but what do you get i'm not on facebook i keep to myself i'm a fiercely private person hey it's my birthday today you can't that? Didn't it feel weird just now? Yeah. All right.
Let's talk about murder. Are you ready? That was called family forum.
That last part. That was called working out friendship details.
Friendship rules. This is an important thing because I swear to God, if I'm friends with a person and they give me some fucking three stacks of beautifully wrapped gifts on my birthday, I'm get off yeah we're not gonna be i don't want this from you you're gonna be very disappointed when your birthday rolls around getting this yeah and then i feel obligated and i write this card that's like hey thank you for forcing this liking me out of me can i just take you for a fucking meal all right yeah and and

actually you should i know well i feel you owe me who went first last week i think you did okay good

am i wrong

all right we're taking a quickie break. Stay tuned.
And then my favorite murders are happening.

And we're back.

Hello. Hi.

I'm looking at the photo right now on Instagram that we took from that recording.

Nine years ago.

Steven, I have not seen this photo since back then, probably.

Right? Of your house?

Oh, my God. Look at everything.
I know. You could actually, when I saw that picture, that's what I said I'd go, I wonder if Georgia's seen this lately because that is just like it captured a moment of your old apartment, like with all your stuff and different things and like what your life looked like nine years ago.
It did. It was Steven on the ground there.
Like what our whole lives were like back then in my cute little apartment. Oh my God.
This is like, I'm, I'm verklempt. Yeah.
I mean, and I'm schitzing. It's almost like that's our point of view.
Like the other picture was Steven's point of view to us recording, but I didn't realize. I definitely took this one.
That's my love seat. I think that I'm taking this from.
Yeah. With my whiskey whiskey on the table.
If you'll notice, that is a vintage rocks glass, which I don't use anymore because there's lead. All that lead that you were drinking that night and all through.
That it gave Stephen. Here, Stephen, shh, shh, shh, shh.
This will make you feel better. Yeah, we were talking about all kinds of, I mean, we were talking about it.
We've talked about it a ton.

I said it then. I feel the same way.
The Johnny Gosch case kills me. You still can't handle.
It's one of those things where like I think part of the draw and I think the emotional interplay, if I may, and I may not. I wish it would.
This show show is like or of any true crime kind of fans experience is that you're looking into this like horrifying you know gaping maw of human mystery I guess human mystery and misery misery pain people being stuck in places with no answers like unfathomable loss yeah but then also loss but then almost like a person coming back like are they really there will we know like it's so heartbreaking yeah everything about that and it hasn't gotten better and that's one of those cases well the other one we mentioned was the jacob wling case, which I will mention every single time that season one of In the Dark that is about this case. When they were like days or a week before they were going to release the show, his murderer was caught.
I mean, talk about timing. And it's an incredible show.
So make sure you check out season one of In the Dark. Season one of In the Dark.
Yeah. Entertainment Weekly? Look at us go.
I mean, that Entertainment Weekly spread was really fun. That was a very cool moment.
Was this the spread? Or it keeps saying we were mentioned. Oh, it could be.
Yeah, you know what? The one where I screwed it up and was like, it's us and Sunlit Youth when it was supposed to be. It's us and Local N.
So embarrassing. I apologize on the next episode.
But local natives is a cool band. And we were mentioned in there.
But then I think maybe a couple months or a year later was when it was the spread. That's right.
Well, you know, we were actually in my loft when those photos got taken. That's right.
So that's how you know. That's right.
That's how we know it's progressed in time forward. That's right.
Instead of having carpet, I now have like grayish wood floors that are just hideous. And that's how you know we've made it.
That's how you know you're moving on up. Yeah.
When you have fake gray wood floors. Yeah.
I like that we said to each other, we don't have to give each other gifts. It's very, that's the way to do it.
That was a relief, I think. I have that relief when I meet other friends that are also like, yeah, I don't do gifts either.
Or like with Vince where it's like, no, we don't really, like he's not like hardcore about it and I'm not. And so we don't, I don't always feel the, have to feel the pressure every year because he does so great and I do so, you know.
Right. It just happens when it fucking happens.
Not like, it's not expected. And that almost makes it better when you get a gift or give a gift that the person's not, like, you don't feel obligated to give.
Yeah, it's that kind of beholden thing where someone sends you something and you're like, okay, so then the thing I get you has to be equal, if not greater in emotional value, the hard element of gift giving. Yeah.
yeah yeah some people in my family like insist on continuing to give adults gifts at the holidays yeah and i just think it should be like just let's all just bring a dessert that's the gift you know right bring a box of seeds and give the kids presents like we don't need gifts anymore i'm sorry this will be way off. Well, it's on topic for what you just said, but it's a little off.
But I think I told you this. You can go onto the C's website and design your own box.
So you can just go through and do the exercise of what would you put together if it was your custom made box just for you to eat. And I did that one night simply just to pass the time.
Will they send it to you in the mail? Yeah, so it can be whatever you want in there, but it's like, you know how you use the normal nuts and chews, say, for example? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's Vince's nuts and chews, and I'm assorted, and we fight about it constantly.
Okay, the fight's over. Because if you go on there, you can split it down the center, you can do it however you want.
Fill the whole thing with caramel patties. Whatever you want to do, you can do it.
Get your fucking chocolate covered nuts away from me. I'm not a fucking hippie health nut.
Like, give me caramel. Give me fucking marshmallow.
I want the, like, indulgent ones. I don't want trail mix when I'm eating dessert.
I hear hear you i understand but for me the combination of their roasted almonds and like milk chocolate is so outstanding but you know what i never had and then i swear to god we'll stop talking about this because it's not the right show and i want to eat it now yeah and i'm so hungry have you ever had those scotch mellow bars there yeah the fucking with the marshmallow and the caramel yep it's ridiculous It's the first one i go to whenever i open a box it's like there's something about that combo it's balanced so perfectly mary c it just hats off to you once again love you and like so proud because it's like an la institution you know it's just like jesus i love baller, baller, baller. All right, well, should we get into my story? Should we go back to talking about this episode? Yeah.
This one, yeah, this one, I had forgotten about this. Right.
I forgot about the DNA thing at the very end, which is just mind-blowing. So, yeah, let's, we'll let you tell us.
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Goodbye. We're back.
And we're back. And...
And we're back and we're back and hi we're back hey all right hey george is first this week okay so are you ready to put your phone down and listen to me um i was gonna send you that picture you get me every goddamn time what if i was that big of a dick are you ready to listen that's my one trigger is phone stuff no i'm kidding i don't give a shit about anything um i'm pulling this microphone forward and leaning okay go to instagram.com slash my favorite murder to see a photo we just took yeah i have no makeup on neither do i and my pants are just completely unbuttoned and unz It's my Alicia Keys photo. All right.
I'm taking this out. Is it going to make a lot of noise? No, I'm not.
I'm not going to make one move. Steven, you better tell her if she...
I just want to relax. Keeping an eye on her.
Okay, yeah. Clink clonks.
Give me the finger. All right.
All right. So my favorite murder this week is that of Gary Earl Lederman and the Michigan murders.
So it's kind of a it's kind of a mashup. OK.
All right. In the late 1960s, there was a serial killer targeting young women in the college town of Ann Arbor, Michigan.
he was called the co-ed killer. He became known as a co-ed killer.
And he murdered women in Ann Arbor in a two-year period. His MO was picking up young women between the ages of 13 and 21.
Then he would rape, beat, and murder them. typically by stabbing or strangulation.

Sometimes their bodies would be mutilated, which I don't get into.

Don't worry.

Okay.

If you're squeamish.

After death, before being discarded in a desolate area.

And he was also known to visit their bodies before they were found.

Ooh.

Yeah.

He was a fucking creep.

Yeah.

Like a gross, fucked up, sadistic creep. He was was the og ted bundy it sounds like yeah yeah yeah he was like i think i don't know i should have looked this up but they must have had the term serial killer already because they called him that but it was like before this was like a known thing right serial killing so two young women attributed to the co-ed killer had been found when the body of Jane Mixer, a brilliant 23-year-old law student at the University of Michigan, was found on March 21st, 1969.
She was found in a cemetery just west of Ann Arbor, and it was assumed she was a victim of the serial killer, the co-ed killer um but some of the details of her murder were different than the established mo of the co-ed killer jane had disappeared after posting a note on a college rideshare bulletin board oh fuck right i mean oh honey yeah she was seeking a ride across the state to her hometown of Muskegon where she intended. Oh, my God.
This is the worst part. She intended to inform her family of her engagement and imminent move to New York.
Like she intended to inform everyone of the beautiful life she was building for herself. Yeah.
And was excited to start. She just had some great news.
Yeah. It's like, Oh, her parents had been waiting for this day.
Yeah. A guy she met at law school who was a sweet angel.
They were going to move to New York and pursue their careers. Her sweet baby angle.
That's my saying. I love.
All right. TM.
tm thank you um yeah it makes me really sad but you know like i wonder how like there's one thing about hitchhiking that we are always like don't hitchhike but the other thing of like putting it hey if anyone's heading to like fucking muskegon and you're right i mean in this day and age i it's a little bit better. If you're going to do that in 1969, don't, don't do, get away from any cork board of

any kind.

Yeah.

There's nothing good is happening.

No.

Everything's laced with acid.

Come on.

Oh, those were great quotes.

Amazing.

Um, yeah.

I'm really mad about it.

I had no idea.

No, it's ridiculous.

So her body had been found in a cemetery atop a grave well um she had been and we learned this from how to say this from john benet garroted correct yeah garretted garretted all right with a nylon stocking and it wasn't her own stocking it was come to find out But the way she died was that she was shot twice in the head with a 22 caliber. She hadn't been beaten or sexually assaulted like the other victims of the co-ed killer had, but she did have her dress pulled up showing her underwear.
But it had been carefully covered up with her yellow raincoat afterwards and her shoes and her copy of Catch-22 had been carefully placed nearby.

So, like, this person took care.

It was like painting a picture.

Yeah.

And, like, covering her body is such a – I mean, we all know what it means now.

But back then, it was like we didn't understand.

Like, that really meant caretaking this person.

Right.

Which means a personal relationship.

Usually.

I didn't.

Yes, you're right. All right.
I thought that's what you were saying. No, but you're right.
I just, yeah. It means, yeah.
You're so smart. I'm just going to hand this whole podcast over to you.
Don't do it. Bye.
Please don't do it. So four days after she's discovered the body, another body of the co-ed victim, the co-ed killer is found, Marilyn Skelton.
She disappeared while hitchhiking in Ann Arbor. And her murder more closely resembled the MO of the serial killer.
I wrote, fucked up fact. Each woman up until this point, including Jane Mixer, had been menstruating at the time of their death oh what in the actual fuck what what are the chances okay who works at the tampon store is my first as i'm oh you think it's a well they wore sanitary napkins like went up to their chins who sold those sanitary napkin belts did you just, like went up to their chins.
Who sold those sanitary napkin belts?

Did you just say that went up to their chins?

Have you seen these things?

Can I tell you a hilarious and very quick anecdote?

Always.

My friend Lisa Lanyon, who I went to high school with. Should you be saying her full name?

Are you about to tell them?

No, she'd like it.

Okay.

I spent the night at her house one night and I wanted to wash my face before we went to

bed.

I couldn't find anything to hold my hair back. And then I found this, this, uh, this white elastic, weird headband that had plastic clips on it.
I was like, whatever, double it up through my hair back, wash my face. Oh my God.
Came out of the bathroom. Her mother started laughing so hard.
She could not breathe. And then Lisa was like, Karen, you have a sanitary napkin belt on your head.
The joke is on them because what the fuck? It was like some old thing. I think the story was like her mom showed her like this is what you used to have to use and then threw it in the bathroom drawer.
Oh, my God. It was like some old thing she found of like, Lisa, can you believe this? Her used to have her mom had this great Boston accent.
Her mom was hilarious. That is the most beautiful story I've ever heard in my life.
I own her mom lost her mind when she saw me. And she was like, you are the funniest girl.
I was like, I was just putting a hairband in my hair. How embarrassing, but good for you for washing your face before bed.
Thanks, Jeej. Pro tip, as someone who has open adult

acne on her face right now, always wash

your face before bed. Seriously.
It's something

that's very hard to do. Once you're in your, like, fourth

episode of Rosemary and Thyme, you're like, I'm not

getting off this couch. Who cares?

That's why within arm's reach at all times

you have face wipes

everywhere.

Come on. Girl.
Tip for the lazy. There'll be more of those coming up.
We're very lazy. That was a great segue.
That was the best story I've ever heard. Okay, sorry.
No, don't sorry. That needs to be the girl who makes those amazing cartoons of us.
Oh, yeah. Comic strips of us.
Can that lovely girl please make one of this story? Yeah give me a button nose i demand it everyone keeps commenting when i put photos like drawings on um instagram of how that you have a button nose and amazing cheekbones in every drawing because you do that's right you just bend people to your will tell me i'm pretty we won't share unless you tell us. Matt McCarthy actually texted me button nose the other morning.
He did. Shout out to Matt McCarthy.
It was sarcastic. Yeah, but he listens.
He listens and loves. Maybe he sarcastically listens.
No, I think he genuinely listens, but was being sarcastic about my button nose. Okay.
So Matt McCarthy of the We Watch Wrestling podcast. We Watch Wrestling podcast if you like wrestling.
All right. All right.
Back to the story. Back to the murders.
Back to murder. All right.
So, da-da-da-da-da, all had been menstruating. Crazy creepy.
Fucking weird. Yeah.
And like, seems linked, right? What are the chances? What are the chances? That's insane. So, after three more murders of a 13-year-old named Don Luis Basim and 21-year-old Alice Elizabeth Callum.

With his final victim, which was due to his capture, being an 18-year-old named Karen Sue Benaman,

John Norman Collins, a former fraternity dude, was caught.

He's that young? Yeah. Or he's just former? No, he was, he was, oh God, I don't know his age, but he was a young man.
He was in college, college age too. Yeah.
And honestly, like between you and me, he was fucking hot. Oh, that's, they're the worst.
That's the fuck it. It's the Ted Bundy thing.
Well, that's why these girls would get in his car and get on his motorcycle he was a cute college dude he's not anymore he's fucking gross but look at an old photo of right he was well no one's gonna go with a guy if a if a guy rolls up and is like hey can you help me with my thing and yeah and they look creepy people are gonna go no i can use my very basic senses to be like no thanks yeah it's this automatic thing of trusting a attractive face that's right giving credit to being attractive is that means you're a good person trustworthy person so what does it mean that people think i'm a terrible person does that mean i'm unattractive nobody thinks that wait you're you're trying to give people rides always you're rolling up and trying to get people to get into your car to not kill them yeah just to drive them around and talk about your own stuff yeah it seems like to vent sometimes when I say I went to therapy today all I mean is I picked someone up and made them drive around with me for an hour. You made them listen to you for an hour.

Yeah.

And then I gave him 20 bucks and dropped him off.

Thank you.

Bye.

So he had been interviewed by police previously, but had been eliminated as a suspect.

And part of the reason he was caught was due to the identification by a clerk of the wig shop which his last victim named karen had visited yes this was an episode of the crime a crime to remember the one with the car what it's like it the one thing they knew about him like they had no idea who it was for a long time but the one one thing they knew was like a blue car. It was a motorcycle.
Oh, oh. Is that the one where the little girl gets kidnapped, like from her driveway? Yes.
And they knew the car. Yeah.
And it turns out it was a guy that lived right in the neighborhood? Yeah. Okay, I'm combining.
Sorry, I'm combining. Yeah, no, you're right, though.
So Karen, the last Karen. I've watched too many crime shows.
They're all the same in my mind now. So Karen.
Hi. Karen, the last Karen.
I've watched too many crime shows. They're all the same in my mind now.

So Karen. Hi.
Karen, the last person who was murdered by him that day, the day of her disappearance, had visited a wick shop. And the clerk had remembered that Karen was visiting her store to purchase a hairpiece.
and there was a young man waiting outside for her on a blue motorcycle. Ooh.
And Karen told the clerk, I mean, man, this bums me out, Renny. She said to the clerk to observe the man with whom she had accepted a ride, a Hawkeye and a motorcycle, stating that she had made two foolish errors in her life, purchasing a wig and accepting a ride from a stranger.
And then she stated, I've got to be either the bravest or the dumbest girl alive because I've just accepted a ride from this guy. What are the fucking chances? She was then seen climbing onto the motorcycle before uh riding away with him you know that makes me think of it's like when you get a bad feeling in your gut and you make light of it that's right and you feel like oh if i just say this to one person it'll make it less a bad feeling in my gut crazy and yeah exactly when you're like this crazy thing just happened to me this person assaulted me and you're like you should be taking it seriously well no i just mean it more in the way of like before anything happened before anything bad happens but you do have the thing of this isn't right like what that that i was gonna i mean from your own life.
Are we fighting? That was amazing. Like what? No, I meant from your own life.
Like what? Most of the time, if I get a thing, I walk. I don't do this.
But I think probably back when I drank, I would do it more. Right.
But there wasn't a lot of information coming in because of like the gallons of whiskey that I had inside. Yeah.
There's definitely jokes I've made that are like, like I have a hot date tonight. And it's like, well, it's just with this person you don't fucking know.
Yeah. And it's and you're really actually you should be afraid.
Yeah. You're nervous and you're telling people and you're trying not to act quote unquote weird by telling them,'m nervous so you're just trying to make a joke about it but then vince and i got married so it's fine no but one time i did go on a date with someone i was going to date with someone and i gave his phone number to my best friend this is before self like most before cell phones to be like hey if i don't show up tomorrow yeah this is here's my and here's his info yeah that's not cool well but also now because a lot of people talk about this uh to us which is i don't want to leave my house i'm so anxious i'm so nervous i think everyone's going to kill me or whatever which i think is people connecting with us and people reaching out.
They have heard us say it. They're going to just say it too, because they're admitting it.
But there's also that thing of just, it's just a safety precaution. Nobody cares.
Nobody thinks you're weird. You give that number and then you just have a little thing in place because I think it's a smart thing to do.
It's just taking, it's being proactive for yourself because. Because, yeah, you're going to go on a date if you've met a person.
None of the other other alarm bells are going on. Right.
It doesn't mean you shouldn't. That's a person you shouldn't go on a date with because it's just being precautious.
But but yeah, but also do that thing that might feel weird, but you can just do it for with a friend. You don't have to do it to every person, you then you're being like neurotic yeah but you you put a little safety sure measure out there hell yeah yeah yeah all right ready um except the ride so that's how he one of the one of the main ways he got caught that led to all the other evidence against him and in august 1970 john norman collins was found guilty of first degree murder of karen his last victim and he was sentenced to serve a life imprisonment with hard labor in solitary confinement he He never admitted his guilt in either the murder of Karen or any of the other murders linked to the Michigan murder he is suspected of committing.
So they only tried him for that one crime, for the one murder that they had a ton of evidence on and eyewitness evidence. And then he was never going to get out.
So they didn't try him for the other murders, which has to be hard when you're the family of those other victims and how many other people were there did you know here's okay so here's the rest of the story oh shit so they i mean up until 2002 they figured he had like seven murders in the area um but the case of jane mixer was considered solved by the fact that John Norman Collins had did it until 2002 when Michigan State detectives noticed that a lot of the details of her murder didn't match up with Collins' crime.

So they took a look at the case again and they took three drops of sweat that had been on Jane Mixer's pantyhose and a single drop of blood that had been on her hand to be tested for DNA.

All right. The DNA didn't match John Norman Collins, the co-ed killer, but it did match 62-year-old Gary Lederman, who was a former nurse from southwestern Michigan, who was a drug salesman in Michigan at the time of the murders in the area.
It was thought that Lederman was the person who had responded to Jane's note on the college rideshare bulletin asking for a lift home because somehow a dorm room book, a phone book in the dorm rooms read the words, quote, mixer and Muskegon, which is where she was going and were linked to his handwriting. But that was in 2002 that they found those or that they linked those.
All right. Anyways.
Maybe they had the evidence, but they just hadn't kind of put anything together. Just sitting somewhere.
Yes. And then when his house was searched, where he had lived with his wife of 27 years, two Polaroid pictures of a 16-year-old foreign exchange student who had lived with him and his wife were found.
The girl was drugged unconscious, lying on his bed with her clothing pulled back to show her junk. And it was similar to the pose that Jane had been left in in the cemetery.
Whoa. So the sweat stains linked to Lederman, not the serial killer, but the drop of blood found on her hand was linked through DNA to someone else.
It was a Detroit man who was at the time of the DNA match, serving life in prison for murder. The problem was ready for this, That John Ruelas, whose DNA matched the blood drop, was four years old at the time of the murder.
Right? So the defense argued that the state police lab had contaminated the samples when both men's DNA were tested at the lab within a day of each other. Lederman's had been tested

separately. He had a recent arrest for forging prescription meds from where he worked as a nurse.
And Ruelas was for murder. But the cross-contamination made the DNA match to Lederman.
It should have made it in the court case just null and void. Because if you find someone else's DNA on this person, there's no way that person could have committed the crime.
Then the rest of the DNA should be fucking thrown out as evidence, right? Are you saying that's the law? Or you're just saying that's like logic? That's logic to me. We can get to that.
It didn't get thrown out. The prosecution argued that Ruelas, who was four years old at the time, and a chronic nose bleeder must have been at the crime scene and somehow got a drop of blood on your face that you're making is correct is what I feel, too.
Yeah. For a four year old with a bloody nose wandered over to a dead body.
They didn't argue that there was a mistake in the crime lab, but crime lab, but, but the other DNA was legitimate. And here's why they said that there was a four year old boy in the cemetery and had somehow gotten his blood on her.
That in and of itself is the creepiest thing we've talked about this whole episode the idea of a four-year-old with a bloody nose walking through a cemetery yeah and stumbling upon a dead body and it's absurd but he he was uh convicted lederman was convicted of the murder of jane mixer based on the the dna evidence and these other little basic things um according to the book inside the cell the dark side of forensic dna by aaron murphy which we all need to read immediately i'm fucking buying the lab analyst admitted that they routinely process samples from different cases at the same time as well as one of the negative controls processed in this case at the time that the pantyhose sample that was processed had become contaminated, like not even connected to all of this. But the analyst had tried to hide that fact.
Oh. In addition, Royale's DNA wasn't even processed at that lab.

It was sent out for testing in a different location,

but they still were able to cross contaminate at that,

at the lab where it had originated.

Like that's some fucked up shit.

Yeah.

Right.

So after minutes of deliberation,

Lederman was convicted of first degree murder and got life in prison.

Minutes of deliberation?

Mm-hmm.

Jesus.

I know.

All right.

So I kind of wrote these things of like,

here's what's hard to argue with Lederman being guilty,

is that all of the crimes that we're talking,

including mixers, had to do with Ryd somewhere, which somewhere, which was the MO of the co-ed killer. They all had something tied around their necks.
Some of which didn't belong to the murder victim, including Jane's. The first few are menstruating, which is fucking insane.
Bizarre. They were all left in locations where they would eventually be found kind of on purpose.

They all were connected to the university, which I mean, if you live in Ann Arbor, that's

kind of hard not to.

Yeah, it's a university town.

A lot of them were strangled and the fifth known victim was shot in the head as well.

So it wasn't totally against his MO.

But at the same time, the majority of those murders, he was never tried and convicted

for. So it's not like we can say that he did them definitively.
But according to Lederman's

roommate in college, Lederman owned and liked to shoot a .22 caliber and he was obsessed with

serial murders. So it's kind of this, it reminds me of making a murderer where it's like i don't know if he's guilty or innocent but he shouldn't have been prosecuted based on these pieces of evidence yeah that's right and that's really the only thing you have at the end of the day because everything else is bias and circumstance and kind of judgment yeah and.
And it was 2002 at the height of like CSI being a big thing and everyone thinking DNA was like the end all be all and not realizing that so much of it, like eyewitness testimony was flawed because it was because human error. And people not admitting like covering up human errors, good god yeah so that's that's crazy yeah so you're you you believe that lederman should not be in jail you think that that last death that the woman that was found in the graveyard is a co-ed killer i don't think i can't say that definitive.
I think there should have been more evidence to try. I feel like now in 2016, we should go back and look and find whatever, whatever other evidence we can find and DNA tests those other victims that we are attributing to the co-ed killer, kind of cross-reference them with Jane Mixer and see what really happened.
i don't i'm not i can't say definitively that he should be let out i just think in the same way steven avery was like we should get a new trial and you know serial anand syed should be i don't know you can't you can't convict someone especially when they have shoddy defense based on these basic things that you know in the future we're going to laugh at as like i know and it could the future could be like four years right now right i mean 2002 seems not that long ago right it's so huge it's a huge difference uh when it comes to like scientific evidence and all this. Now, where do you think where do you think that bloody four year old plays into this? I mean, that's the most that's the that's the only reason I'm talking about this murder is because that is so fucking insane.
And so clearly human error of cross-contamination in that lab.

I can't believe the trial went forward after that was found out.

That lawyer, when he found that out, that that's what that blood spatter was,

must have been so stoked.

The defense?

I don't know.

Whoever found that, I was just like, this is the big reveal the big reveal of like is this blood well it was four-year-old the defense should have been stoked that that was that they found a four-year-old's blood who had been whose dna had been tested in the same lab a day before but for some reason he didn't pursue that enough in the trial to convince the jury that that was fucking insane because at the time you like you're saying it's like dna is a lock yeah i mean those prosecutors were good i'm sure well and also you get somebody it's like it's you know people want a thing like that people want want that story finished, closed. They want a period.

They want it closed up and they want somebody to pay. Yeah.
And that's a hard position. You know, we've felt that same way.
Yeah. Where it's just like erase what's happening or like somebody gets some justice.
Yeah. Justice is such a fraudulent term.
All right. Wow.
Horrifying in every way. Are there updates on this case? There aren't many.
Yeah, that story is just like piling on horrifying things. So it's just like too many.
Yes. Too many.
But during my story, Karen, you did share a funny anecdote about misusing a sanitary napkin belt because I think we were a lot jokier during the stories back then than we are now.

Well, yeah, we just thought we were talking to each other.

So when we would go off on tangents, which we always do, it would just be like, oh, wait, this makes me think of this thing.

Okay, now back to this horrible thing.

And it didn't read to us as kind of stark and harsh and insensitive as it does now. Right.
I'd also like to point out, as I mentioned earlier, that full glass of whiskey that I don't do that anymore. Maybe a can of wine, but a full glass of whiskey does not a good podcast make.
Yeah. But it's great that you did.
Hey. But good thing you brought it up because that iconic story was turned into a work of art by Nick Terry, of course, for MFM animated.
It's called Hair Tie and you can see it in all its glory on the Exactly Right YouTube channel. I mean, if you're having a bad day and you just go to the Exactly Right YouTube channel and binge watch MFM Animated, it's a joy.
Nick Terry has done something that like as a self-loathing Gen Xer who just wants to like turn away most of the time. Nick Terry makes me enjoy what we have made here in a way that's like it just means the world.
It's like being able to see it in the way of like, oh, I oh i get this yeah like it points out the special moments that you can't we miss because we're fucking halfway talking about something else by the time it's over you know because we're all sanitary napkin belt which is like most people don't know what that is also this is the episode where i say sweet baby angle and for good or bad we do have bumper stickers that say that on the exactly right store if you want to go buy one. That's right.
I love how Sweet Baby Angle has become just as important as Sweet Baby Angel, the original one. It was because someone wrote in, right? And they accidentally wrote Angle.
Probably. I think that's what it was.
And then there was, I did have the story from my hometown of somebody wrote, when I was in high school, somebody wrote on a wall in black spray paint angle of death.

And we would my friend would be like, oh, my God, it's the angle of death.

Oh, my God.

I wanted to open a vintage clothing shop called Hail Satin.

Yes.

I'm still trademarking that.

Like, come on.

That's that's very like early agent provocateur.

Look, we're still doing it. We can't help it.
It is what we're that. Like, come on.
That's very like early agent provocateur. Look, we're still doing it.

We can't help it.

It is what we're like conversationally.

We just can't stop doing it.

Stop it.

Let's get back into it.

The story that I'm about to introduce that you do is so incredible.

I think it's one of your best.

It has an incredible update at the very end.

And I think you get into this groove right now in this time period when you're doing like Mary Vincent and the story and some other really powerful ones that are just like legendary in the over 400 episodes we've done. That's right.
Also, there's, thank you very much. That's a lovely compliment, but I am ripping off the television show I Survived directly.

I credit them at the time.

You do.

But especially in retrospect, I was just trying to get this insane podcast homework done.

And so I couldn't—all of this is the producing minds of the people who made I Survived and how brilliantly they made that show.

So I could basically tell the Jennifer Mori story because the first time I saw it, it affected me so deeply that I never forgot it. So like that day, I'm positive I was coming from one of my writing jobs.
And I was like, oh, I know, I'll just rewatch that and write down the facts and then just retell it the way Jennifer Maury herself told this story, which is for the good or bad, that is how I got

through the year that I worked on this podcast and had a job, if not two. But I do think it was

this sincere because of my true, genuine respect and admiration for that show and the way they

tell victim stories. It was like, well, great, let's tell victim stories and let's get those.

Yeah. Now I know the correct story, not the fucking, you know, over-dramatized bullshit.
The firsthand experience of a survivor is one of the most important things we could hear. Okay.
So let's listen to Karen's story about Jennifer Morey. Time is precious and so are our pets.
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We know pools. So this week, I'm going back to my tried and true, which is I'm going to retell you one of my favorite episodes of I Survived.
Well, I've never seen the show, so please do. And this one I love because this plays on if you have some home alone as a young lady fears, this is going to cause some problems.
So spoiler alert, trigger alert, scary, scary alert. Oh, no.
It has all all these pieces and the first time i saw this on i survived i was like gripping the couch i was so uh freaked out so essentially it goes a little something like this um it's april 15th 1995 and a, uh, young, um, bright, beautiful, successful 25 year old young lawyer named, um, Jennifer Morey is, uh, goes out and has a drink with her friends after work one night. Big mistake.
Her fault. Um, she goes, she's at the local ale house.
All her friends are there.

She doesn't want to go at first. They convince her to stay.
Then she ends up having a great time and she stays until midnight. Then her friend drives her home and she lives in an apartment complex called Bayou Park in Houston.

And the reason that she picked this apartment complex to move into was because it was all about security. And it had not just like, you know, the apartment security guards.

They actually hired Pinkerton security guards to work at this place. Did they go back in time? That's still a thing? No, they've been around.
That's how long they've been around. It's still like a major company.
And that name means a lot to people in security. So that's why she picked that apartment building to live in.
So she goes home at midnight, goes in. Let's say she washed her face, which is what you should do before you go to bed, ladies.
So she goes home at midnight goes in let's say she washed her face which is what you should do

before you go to bed ladies um so she goes in gets ready for bed goes to bed turns out all the lights wakes up at 4 a.m there's someone on top of her no yeah yeah get ready for this no it's gonna be this the whole time scared so there's someone straddling her and she can feel something on her neck.

And she realizes.

Is that a puppy?

Someone.

No,

it's not.

She realizes someone's broken into her apartment and they're attempting to

rape her.

She's,

she can't figure out if she's dreaming at first.

It's that horrible in between feeling.

She finally,

when she becomes fully awake and she realizes someone's straddling her, they've got a knife to her throat and they're going to rape her she just starts fighting good for her so she does everything she can she she fights this guy she grabs the knife it's all the stuff uh all the crazy shit and she's fighting him so hard that he cuts her from the cheekbone to the middle of her neck and he slices her neck open um so she keeps on fighting but suddenly it gets very slippery and there's blood everywhere and um finally she starts losing blood and like the fight goes out of her. Oh no.
He takes her by the hair. Oh no.
And he pulls her across, out of the bed, across the room, throws her into the bathroom and says, you stay in here and you do not move. And he slams the door.
And so she throws her back up against the door in the bathroom

she grabs a washcloth and she puts it up against her wound pressure constant pressure when you have a wound like that um oh my god oh my god she throws her feet up against the wall and she's like jammed herself there so he can't come back in yeah um and then she sits there and waits and listens and she hears him zip his pants up and then she wait and then she hears the door close and then she waits a little bit longer to make sure and then she goes to open the door and she can't open the door because there's so much blood on her hands that she cannot get a grip on the door and she's pulling at it and pulling at it and then

she actually says in the story she actually started laughing because she was like oh this is how i'm gonna die she's one of us i get stuck i get stuck in the bathroom and that's how i can't get help so finally she gets out she yanks the door open she gets out she fumbles to throw on the hallway light. The lights are dead.

Oh my god.

She crawls.

She gets to the phone.

Phone. fumbles to throw on the hallway light the lights are dead oh my god she crawls she gets to the phone phone's dead no no no no yeah so then she finds her cell phone it's alive she brings it back into the bathroom and she calls 911 so that night a man named rich Everett was working, was the dispatcher.

He had just gotten onto his shift.

Oh, my God.

Heroes. They're all heroes.
So this is 4 a.m. when this started.
So so I guess he was starting a very early morning shift, maybe middle of night. I don't know.
so she explains to him what's happened and he just starts telling her you're going to be fine just try to stay calm don't talk that much we just keep it the cops and the ambulance are on their way right now they're going to be there really soon you know we could listen to this right now and you're gonna be fine there's no fucking way i would ever listen to it i don't know um and she's saying i'm bleeding so much you please make sure they hurry or whatever. And he's like, they're, they're coming to be fine.
There's no fucking way I would ever listen to it. I know.
And she's saying, I'm bleeding so much.

You please make sure they hurry or whatever.

And he's like, they're coming there as fast as they can.

Just hold that washcloth.

You're going to be okay.

Oh, my God.

And so after like 10 minutes, he's just talking her down.

And she's actually starting to calm down.

And she's feeling okay.

There's a knock at the door.

No, no, no.

So she's like, there's someone's knocking at the door. And he's like, who is it? And she goes, well, hold it.
So she yells from the bathroom, who is it? And he says, this is Brian Gibson, the security guard that's on, on, uh, um, duty tonight. Um, I just got attacked by a guy who jumped off your balcony.
are you okay? Is that true? Is it true? And she doesn't know. So she's like, he goes, are you okay? You should let me in.
And she goes, I'm okay. I'm talking to 911 right now.
And the dispatcher on 911 goes, wait, what's going on? And she goes, no, it's okay. It it's the security guard he wants me to let him in and richard everett for no reason except for gut goes do not let him in the door and she goes no it's pinkerton security that's the whole apartment like that's the whole setup here and he goes he he said here's the thing we haven't notified security at your apartment complex yet.
So unless they have a police scanner. Yeah.
But if you saw someone jumping off that, it doesn't matter. What is he going to do? We don't know about that story.
But he goes, we just don't know what that is. Yeah.
So just don't let him in. Yeah.
So she's like, I'm not going to let you in right now. And the guy's like, I swear it's okay.
Here's my badge. He's like, I just need to help you.
Are you bleeding? There's blood out here. I want to make sure that you're okay.
And she's like, I'm fine. The cops are on their way.
And he's like, I know I can hear the alarms. I know CPR.
I can help you, whatever and and and he goes i'm sorry i just the dispatcher says to jennifer i just don't think you should let him in and she's like okay i'm really scared though i'm starting to lose blood i'm getting lightheaded we got the coochie twins this is so exciting like what if i what if i pass out and i'm in here and the door's locked? They kick it down. It's fine.

And so he just keeps talking to her and he's like,

just listen to the sound of my voice.

I'm watching the cops drive up the street.

They are three minutes away.

That's so long. You just have to hang on for three more minutes.

And meanwhile, the guy's like, Jennifer, can you talk to me?

Are you okay?

Can you just let me in?

So. If he was supposed to be there, he wouldn't be so insistent.
He wouldn't, you know what I mean? Like. Well, but it's a woman who's bleeding and there's blood.
It's like, clearly there's a scenario. Now, if you were a security guard.
Yeah. And you knew a woman had just gotten attacked with a knife.
You would kick the door down. And she's in there bleeding out and freaking out and not letting anybody help her you might kick the door down yeah so but richard's like i don't know so just don't do it well then the knocking starts getting harder he's like you need to let me in here and she then she's starting to freak out because now she doesn't trust anybody she has no idea what what to do.
But then suddenly she hears the sirens in the background. So she knows the police.
And he's like, do you hear the sirens? They are coming up the driveway road. She's like, yes.
And he goes, so the ambulance is there. Like, you are going to live.
You're fine. So just keep that door shut and you will be fine.
Well, the knocking stopped. Oh, my God.
Oh, my God. Oh, my God so now she's more scared because she's like what the fuck is it yeah when the cops pull up to this apartment complex this security guard brian gibson meets them out there and he is a mess he is bleeding from his right hand there's blood on his face there's uniform.
Murder. And he tells the police his story that he walked up.
He saw a guy. He jumped down from her second story balcony and attacked him.
They got into this fight and the guy ran off into the woods, like into a field over on the side. And he didn't see where he went.
And then he went up to check on the lady who will not let him in who's freaking out.

So the cops are like, alright, stay here.

Sounds good. They start to check

everything out. There's

no trail into

the grass is dewy because it's 6am.

No, nothing.

So they're like, get that guy

and put him in a room over there.

They go up to Jennifer's apartment. The ambulance

has already taken her away. She's going to live.
Oh my God, okay. Because the show is called I Survived.
She told the story herself with a big old scar on her neck. She's gorgeous.
This woman is like gorgeous and a lawyer. So she's killing it.
Yeah. The cops go into her apartment.
There's blood everywhere. There's also a Pinkerton hat and there's men's underwear on the ground and a knife.
So they pick up all this shit and they go back down to Brian Gibson, the Pinkerton security guard that works there. How is that in there? And they say, can you take your shirt off, please? And he's like, no, it's fine.
I was actually the one that was attacked. And they're like, take your shirt off.
There's claw marks all over his body. Oh, my God.
He's not wearing underwear. Nope.
He has shaved his pubic hair. No pubic hair.
Meaning no hair left behind. That's exactly right.
And he doesn't have a hat. Because he was the person, the security guard at the apartment building where she lived.

Did he have keys to everywhere?

Well, he didn't have...

Oh, yeah.

He must have had keys to get into her house.

Master key, yeah.

Or he could have like...

I mean, he had total access to her.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Oh, sorry, shit.

That was the most upsetting thing that I read.

Fuck, sorry.

No, no, no.

But I just forgot it it's

he was calling her by her first name when he was talking to her before he when he was first on her um which i think is one of the other the other reasons she got so freaked out and fought so hard is because it's like what the fuck is going on guess how much i'm sleeping tonight zero but she survived.

It turns out.

Yeah.

So they arrest him. Guess how much I'm sleeping tonight.
Zero. But she survived.

It turns out.

Yeah.

So they arrest him.

He gets 20 years for attempted murder.

Man, what the fuck?

And he's on parole now.

What?

No, I'm going to fucking.

In Texas.

Jump off my second story balcony.

He's on parole in Texas. When is attempted murder going to be treated like what it was intended to be like murder you mean murder right that is so troubling to me that it's like well you didn't get away with it so you're not because she lived right simply because she fought so you you don't you don't deserve the punishment of what you were intending to fucking do.
Well, and also the cops are positive that if she had let him in when he came back the next time to quote unquote check on her, he would have killed her and picked up all his shit. Totally.
Totally. There's that is absolutely there.
The cops are positive. That's the reason.
What's the name of the guy? The 901 dispatcher?

Richard Everett.

All of the ribbons and whatnot?

They're still friends to this day.

He went to her wedding.

Oh my god.

They're close friends.

I'm going to cry.

She talks about him when in her episode

of I Survived

the way she talks about him is one of the of uh i survived she the way she talks about him

is like one of the sweetest things you've ever seen i can't deal with that because he in the

worst moment of her life like saved her life essentially in that way that like

beautiful things happen to hideous fucking things and she went on to become the trauma support

the director of trauma support services of north texas gorgeous and she i read a thing

And she, I read a thing she went around, I mean, it was 2015, I think, when the article, what the article is from 2013 or 2015. She was going around speaking at schools and telling people horrible things happen in life, but it's all about what you're prepared, how you're prepared for them.

And basically, she gave this talk that was kind of like the stuff that we talk about, which is like running scenarios and thinking about these things can actually help you not panic and not completely lose it. Yeah.
When something really upsetting happens because you've kind of run a scenario. You know where your cell phone is.

You have things planned. You know where flashlights are.
Like you have things planned out a little bit so you at least can put a plan together. It's a good way to like to make sense

of your anxiety and that like well maybe someday this anxiety or this thing that me thinking about

these awful things happening is going to make me better in a in a situation where I need to not

Thank you. thing that me thinking about these awful things happening is going to make me better in a, in a situation where I need to not fucking panic because I've already run the scenario through my head or.
Yeah. And also it can take away from that.
Like you don't need to beat yourself up for thinking about it. You don't need to tell yourself you're crazy for thinking about it.
You're smart for thinking about it and you're empowered for thinking about it. And you, You're taking action.
It's not, you know, you don't have to live in it and shut the door. You go out in your life knowing that you are armed with information and having an awareness and a security that you, you know, you've done as much as you can with your anxiety to prepare yourself, but you're not letting it take over your life and get in the way, like you're never, you're not going to never leave the house again because you're aware of all these fucking terrible things that happen.
Well, and also it's like, this isn't a story about how all security guards are evil. A lot of them do just as good shit as Richard Everett, the 911 dispatcher did.
A lot of them have, you know, good, that good intentions of, I took this job because I want to help people for this exact reason. But you take it on a case by case basis.
So if you meet a person, you get the weird feeling in your gut. Absolutely trust yourself and just get out of there.
You know what I mean? You don't that's, that's what all that's about. It's like to the individual.
Arm yourself with knowledge, but don't let that overwhelm you. Yeah and also take a break every once in a while and like the other day some girls like i had a she tweeted i had a hard day at work i'm gonna drink wine and watch i survived and i wrote back drink wine and watch bob's burger if you already had a bad day relax that's a great suggestion take a break watch fucking rosemary and thyme where it's a lot of nice flowers, a lot of great accents.

It's chill.

Don't live in it. Like visit and then go somewhere else for a while.

That's a beautiful.

Take a, have a glass of wine and watch Bob's Burgers.

It's like.

Bob's Burgers is the.

Oh my God.

It makes me so happy.

It is the most perfect show. It's positive.
It's a family that loves each other. That's funny.
That isn't perfect at all. And it's hilarious.
Relatable. My six-year-old nephew is obsessed with Bob's Burgers.
The songs they write for that show are the best comedy songs there are. Yeah.
It is my favorite. How they come up with those every episode boggles my mind.
Whoever their musical, I should look it up right now. Whoever their musical director is fucking straight up 1000 props to you.
And that's. And that's.
Karen, that was, you tell those stories so well. It's almost like I'm not cheating.
Yeah. When I am.
Are you? I wouldn't know. This is a podcast where some of the time I just retell TV shows.
But you say that, but you tell them, you don't read them. That's true because I've seen that one.
Jennifer's I've watched probably five times because she tells it.'s it's so compelling she's she's so real she's upset at certain points she's very angry and like very self-righteous at certain points it's a fucking awesome thing to behold she's a great survivor you tell it to me like we're at a party together whereas like if i did mine it would be like so many missing elements of it because i can't remember half the shit that like i have to kind of like go off my own notes which i don't copy and paste but you know i lead with them right yeah but i mean i'm just copying her her story wow i mean that's that's stories though you just yeah that's how i learned to tell stories is just both of my parents. That's all they did.
Yeah. It's like we're sitting by a fire.
Two cavemen. Two cavemen sitting by a fire.
Tales as old as time. The only thing we have to eat are cookies.
Oh. Did someone come running from? I didn't say it right.
He's Jab he's java the hut right now guys thanks for listening do all the things that you're supposed to do and support we love you we couldn't be doing better and it's because you guys all yeah listen and support and do all the things we always ask you to do we couldn't thank you more for that the best listener like you guys are the best it's

we are so lucky we are so fucking lucky uh just make sure that you stay sexy and you don't get murdered elvis you want a cookie you want cookie okay we are back wow and i know you have an update It's epic. Tell us.

So as Georgia was talking about, of course, you listeners really reacted to this story and really loved it. And then basically Jennifer Morey herself heard about this episode.
And this is a story she told us backstage in Dallas, I believe. Dallas, yeah.
When she came on to our live, we invited her to the live show, but we first got an email from her. And that was one of the scariest moments where truly it was fully like, now I understand what we're doing and the reality of what we're doing.
And I think that this is like truly the beginning of a shift because all of the kind of conjecture, faraway feeling that we had about the topics we were talking about and the people we were talking about. It was like the wave after wave of lessons over and over of like real people, real experiences, real relatives, real survivors, all those things.
So that email from Jennifer Moria, I was like, oh, she's going to be like, take that down. She said, basically, my friend said that she had heard this podcast and they told my story and I was really nervous.
I sat down and listened and I loved it. And I was so moved.
And thank you so much. And it was her telling us thank you.
And I was so grateful. I was like, it was amazing.
So then when we went to Dallas, we knew that's where she lived. So we were like, if you in any way want to be there, we would love to, if you want to just watch it, if you want to come on stage.
And so she came backstage, she walked on stage as our surprise guest at the end of that show in Dallas. And the audience went insane.

And then she, you can listen to episode 95.

You can listen to all of it, how it went.

Episode 95 is a live show called Jesus with a G.

And Jennifer Moore gives people a pep talk at the end.

That's one of the most beautiful things that I'm so grateful, of all the things I'm grateful for because of this podcast,

because of us doing this and the way it's gone good or bad the fact that that moment happened I think is like those are the things to me then it was like oh we just need to start doing stuff like this and this will be this will be the legacy we did her right and that felt so good I remember the whole show I was so nervous the entire time and she's a lawyer too which is you just are always nervous around lawyers because you're going to say the wrong fucking thing she had the right to come on if she wanted to come on and say hey you guys are really insensitive and I think you should do a different thing we would have loved to have received that as well definitely we just kind of wanted the fact that she even wanted to be there we really loved but then how she was was just very much what I have seen a lot of times at least other survivors on I survived the people who are like truly stronger than they were before and it's just like she is such an inspirational person and person and she got to kind of represent herself fully and freely. It was great.
Yeah. Yeah.
All right. That was powerful.
So should we wrap this up? Yeah, let's wrap it up. When I saw, I remembered this title.
I love Georgia's cat Mimi a lot. She's really, she's an iconoclast and she's a rebel and she has the tiniest cat mouth that's ever existed in the cat species.
Angry heart, tiny mouth. Yeah.
She's going to live forever out of spite to Cookie and Moe, like just to spite them. Yeah, she's mad.
But so we named this podcast, What About Mimi? Yeah. But if we were naming it today, which we always name it after something that happened in the episode, here's a couple options.
Yeah. Let's see.
I apologize for calling the British crime series Rosemary and Thyme, which is from probably 1998, I would guess. I called that a grandma crime show.
And so in Corrections Corner, I said I loved seeing people take the time to drink tea and eat cookies in British procedurals. So the suggestion is drink tea and eat cookies.
Yeah, that's a solid one. And then our whole gift conversation and not doing it, that would be called friendship rules.
And I think friendship rules are an important part of adult friendships. So let's do it.
Very true. How about we respect some boundaries? Yeah.
Come on. Get involved.
Thanks for listening, you guys, to Rewind. We appreciate it.
We hope you like it. We hope you keep listening.
We'll keep making them. If so, let us know in the comments.
There's also, besides this old episode, there's like 400 others, as Georgia was saying. So, you know, just enjoy the back catalog as much as you'd like to

and stay sexy.

And don't get murdered.

Goodbye.

Elvis, do you want a cookie?