Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 33: What About Mimi?

Transcript

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Speaker 1 Hello. Hello.

Speaker 1 Welcome to Rewind with Karen and Georgia. A Rewind.
Reswing.

Speaker 1 It's Wednesday, and that means we're recapping one of our old shows with all new commentary, all new updates, which I don't think there can be old updates, and insights about one of the old shows we did long ago.

Speaker 1 That's right. One of the old ups.
And today we're looking back at episode 33, which we actually named, What About Mimi? She's been a big part of this podcast for nine whole years, that Mimi.

Speaker 1 That's right. She's holding on too.
She's living through it. Her and Frank.

Speaker 1 So join us today as we take you back to the 252nd day of 2016. That's right.
Thursday, September 8th. And now we can all be day one listeners.
So let's listen to the intro of episode 33.

Speaker 1 What about Mimi?

Speaker 1 Hi.

Speaker 1 That's how we started it this week. Hi, everybody.

Speaker 1 Hi. Are you there? Hello? Hey, that's Karen.
Who's this? That's Karen. Oh, and that's Georgia.
Thank you. These are our voices, if you can't tell them apart.
Oh, yeah, you do yours. Okay.

Speaker 1 Hi, this is Georgia. I gasp into the microphone a lot.
Hi, this is Karen. I sing and

Speaker 1 it lie.

Speaker 1 And this is my favorite murder, which is a podcast where we talk about murders that happen that interest us and intrigue us and hopefully

Speaker 1 make your time at work in the swimming pool or on a darkened road while you take a walk go by a little bit faster. You're welcome.

Speaker 1 Goodbye.

Speaker 1 Oh, that was it. It's such an effort to do like an official beginning of this fucking podcast.
Let's get into it. Let's fucking get into it.
Let's pass it all by. Housekeeping.
Housekeeping.

Speaker 1 Well, so Jacob. Okay, so this is the thing we wanted to talk about that I said, don't fucking talk to me about until our podcast.
That's right. Which is very stern.
I'm very stern.

Speaker 1 So Jacob Wetterling,

Speaker 1 his body, this, what is he, 13-year-old kid who went,

Speaker 1 he was kidnapped. He was kidnapped.
It was him, his brother, and a friend. They were riding their bikes to the store, and a guy held them a gunpoint and told the other two to run away and took Jacob.

Speaker 1 1989, which we have said many times that the 80s are going to be under arrest for being fucking shitty. It was not a good time for us as children.

Speaker 1 Well, speaking of, I just watched a documentary that is now on Netflix over the weekend called Who Took Johnny. I stared at that all weekend going, watch it, Karen.
This is supposed to be your thing.

Speaker 1 And I couldn't bring myself to watch it. Why? Because I've heard them talk about it on last podcast on the left.
And it is so dark and it's so creepy and it is so not your average kidnapping.

Speaker 1 I just didn't want to have to take it in. I agree.
There's a lot of information. The thing I took away from it, hold on.

Speaker 1 Johnny got, I'm fucking writing.

Speaker 1 The thing I took away from it is that his mother,

Speaker 1 and like this is the only positive thing, is the biggest badass in the fucking world.

Speaker 1 So the whole thing kind of centers, follows her around and what she had to go through,

Speaker 1 like when her son got kidnapped and when the police

Speaker 1 72-hour waiting period for this little boy who, in the dark on his paper route in the morning, his, his papers were left behind, his adorable dachshund, which would left, was left behind, which, why would you do that?

Speaker 1 And they said they thought he ran away. So she had to go to great lengths for years and years and became an advocate, just like John Walsh is, but without a TV show,

Speaker 1 for children. And it's amazing what she's done.
I can't, I can't take it in. You got to watch it.
And I just, I'm so tired. I'm so tired.
I'm sorry. No, that's okay.

Speaker 1 Well, the Franklin cover-up comes into play. It's so hard to believe.
I have such a hard time with so many of these little, like, there's two things.

Speaker 1 One of them is that a guy gets arrested and says that he was one of the people who took Johnny Gosh

Speaker 1 and he became a sex slave. Right.
And the other thing is that the mom says that she saw him, Johnny, Johnny, as an adult. As an adult, he came to her door.
Right.

Speaker 1 And those two things, like, if you believe them both, it's a fucking insane story. If you don't, then it's a fucking insane story because people are crazy.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Everything about it is,

Speaker 1 you know, it's...

Speaker 1 If it was just everything peeled away of just the facts that you actually know, it's an intense tragedy of just a child disappearing.

Speaker 1 It's the worst case scenario because then you're a grieving parent who never gets relief and what that must do to you.

Speaker 1 But then there's also the thing of, it's just like, I think the reason people like Stranger Things or whatever, it's that thing of, well, then you must be crazy if you are in grief to this degree.

Speaker 1 Yeah. You, and of course, with the mothers, with women, it's always you're crazy.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 And so a woman trying to get answers and get her child help and get some action when she's being deemed crazy, which is the ultimate stamp that people can negate you and your voice with.

Speaker 1 Yeah, she was saying that maddening. Like

Speaker 1 men are stern, but women are shrill, you know? Yeah, it's the patriarchy. It's the standard bullshit.

Speaker 1 And yet she was able to change laws and be an advocate for children who have gone missing and turn her grief into something

Speaker 1 useful and worthwhile. Not that grief is not those things, but.
No, that's great.

Speaker 1 That's amazing. That's upswing.
She's amazing.

Speaker 1 Yeah. I definitely, I know it's a hard,

Speaker 1 it's a hard case, but it's a really good

Speaker 1 fine. I'll watch it.

Speaker 1 Fine, fine, fine. Fine.
Quit your four jobs that you have and stay home and watch who took Johnny. Here's what I did do.

Speaker 1 And, but sorry, we started that by mentioning that Jacob Wetterling's remains were finally found so his parents have rest. And there was a lot of people who sent us that.

Speaker 1 It makes me really happy that people send us those articles and they're so, you know, enthusiastically like, oh, it's such a nice idea to think that after all these years, those at least, at the very least, those parents have a little bit of rest.

Speaker 1 Yeah. And a little bit of, like, it just, at least they know where he is.
Well, I was, so I read that about him being found, and they hadn't released a lot of details about it.

Speaker 1 Now there's more stuff coming out, like who, like, the guy confessed to it, and that's how they found the body.

Speaker 1 But so the whole time I was watching Who Took Johnny, I was just in all these twists and turns that maybe was this, and it could have been this, and he might be still alive and an adult, and all these things.

Speaker 1 And I couldn't help but just like picture his

Speaker 1 sad

Speaker 1 his bones buried somewhere remote

Speaker 1 in the exact same way he looked when he got taken, and these crazy stories of what happened that are just

Speaker 1 not true. And in the meantime, these lonely bones somewhere.
It just made me sad. I know, it's It's so tragic.
It's heavy, heavy shit.

Speaker 1 That's why I'm going to clumsily segue now into my next piece of housekeeping because let's not live there forever. Sorry.
Did I get too dark? Not at all. No,

Speaker 1 this is what we like, but we can't just like, you know, we have to continue.

Speaker 1 I have an apology to make for anyone. who heard me talk shit about the British procedural Rosemary in time

Speaker 1 because what I did this weekend was watch probably

Speaker 1 20 episodes of Rosemary and Time, which is a hilarious, it's not supposed to be hilarious, but I found it so enjoyable, so relaxing.

Speaker 1 It's two like middle-aged British women who are gardeners and they go, they keep getting hired. It's very murder she-roady, except for there's two of them.
And these two are so enjoyable to watch.

Speaker 1 The murders, which is ludicrous. There's always two murders.
Everywhere they go, people are dropping like flies. No one cares.
They're never suspected. But

Speaker 1 half of more than half of the show takes place in the most gorgeous gardens you've ever seen.

Speaker 1 So there's a real, like, you can see them aiming at like probably like a 60-year-old lady who's going to sit in her chair at night, knit, eat some candy, and watch this show.

Speaker 1 That sounds fucking amazing. I was that lady this weekend and I fucking loved it.
I was so relaxed. You have to see it.

Speaker 1 It's, but one time someone asked me about British procedurals and someone recommended Rosemary and Time and oh, was I flippant about how that was grandma, grandma crime show and I don't care.

Speaker 1 Well, I'm, I apologize, whoever I said that to. I am 1000% wrong.
I love Rosemary Time with the best of them. And Pam Ferris and oh, I wrote their names down because Felicity

Speaker 1 Kendall and Pam Ferris are the two stars. They're so goddamn good.
And Pam Ferris went on on to star in a show called Call the Midwife, which I also love. A lot.
Which one was she?

Speaker 1 She is the nun that wears the habit all the time. She's like all-business nun.

Speaker 1 She looks like everyone in my family. I love that show, Call the Midwife.
I love Call the Midwife. And she's, she's like, holds it down on there.
So she's been on British TV for like 40 years.

Speaker 1 It sounds like a combination of Murder She Wrote and the Great British Bake Off, kind of.

Speaker 1 Where you're just kind of being soothed by British voices, a little violence, gorgeous flowers.

Speaker 1 I mean, you can't have one without the other.

Speaker 1 And you shouldn't. And also,

Speaker 1 what I love is in a British procedural, you will watch them casually drinking tea.

Speaker 1 And I just love the fact that people like cut out time in the day to drink tea and eat cookies. I think there's bourbon in there.
I might just say that because I just had bourbon in there.

Speaker 1 It's probably everywhere. I mean.
Deep down. I mean.
As you

Speaker 1 on

Speaker 1 castle, just like vodka. 100 grain vodka.

Speaker 1 Other housekeeping? Housekeeping? I think the Rosemary and Time apology was my number one housekeeping pretty much this week. That was correction corner.

Speaker 1 Yeah, that was a huge correction. Because also, once again, I've gotten it wrong with England.
Oh, hey. We're in Entertainment Weekly.
Oh, hey. Guess what? That's right.

Speaker 1 We just found this out tonight. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Someone, very nice here. I'll look them up.
Let's give them

Speaker 1 a shout-out. They were like

Speaker 1 a stage mom that I've never had that gave a shit.

Speaker 1 It's D-Train. Of course, D-Train's there for me.

Speaker 1 At D-Train writes, hey, did you see this show in Entertainment Weekly? Congrats. And the answer was no, we absolutely had not.
We didn't know it was going to be in there.

Speaker 1 We're in there with Atlas Obscuro, which is a rad website.

Speaker 1 We're in there with a band called Sunlit Youth. I'm sure young people love them.
I'm sure that they're cool. It's like a bunch of dudes in stretched-out white t-shirts with really sparse facial hair.

Speaker 1 Can I read you my text exchange about it with my dad? Please. So I sent him the photo that D-Train sent us.

Speaker 1 And I said, My podcast is an entertainment weekly because you know the only thing that seems legitimate is if it's you're on television or in a magazine. That's right.

Speaker 1 Like it doesn't matter if you're on the website. That's right.
And he said, OMG, wonderful. Very proud of you.
Go, girl.

Speaker 1 Marty. Then he said, comedian, I like the sound of that.
And I said, me too. And he said, is this on Facebook? I'd like to share it.
Daddy. That's your job, Dad.
Thanks, Dad.

Speaker 1 Go ahead and throw that up on Facebook with a baby picture.

Speaker 1 Let's see it. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Well, that's funny because I texted my sister, Adrian, and Audrey, who are my hometown posse,

Speaker 1 and all fans of the show.

Speaker 1 Not Laura. She doesn't listen to it.
My. Your sister doesn't go.
give it. She's like, I don't have time.
A fact. And I literally have told her when she can listen to it.

Speaker 1 I'm like, when you drive, after you drop off your daughter, my sister-in-law is the only one who listens to it of my family. Like, my not-related person is the only one who can hear my voice.

Speaker 1 And I love it. I hate me.
Well, Audrey and Audrey and Adrienne both totally listen to it.

Speaker 1 So I went onto our non-stop, constant group text and just went, Hey, you guys, look, we're in Entertainment Weekly. No one answered for a while.
And then Adrian responded, What magazine is that?

Speaker 1 I'm like, don't make me fuck and say it twice. Wow.
And then no one answered for a while. And then I had written, will someone please go buy one and give it to my dad? Yeah.

Speaker 1 And so then nobody answers for a while. And then Adrian comes back and goes, Laura, are you on that?

Speaker 1 You're like, hello? Yeah. And I was like, this is classic.
And then I was like, sorry for bragging. And then my sister called me.
Of course. And she's like, I'm so proud of you.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 I sent it to my mom and dad. I haven't heard a word from my mother.

Speaker 1 Well, hates me. No, I'm just kidding.
Can I just shout out Yolanda, my sister-in-law, and how sweet she is. And thank you.
Is she listening? Yeah. Oh,

Speaker 1 was she at the wedding? Of course. I may have met her.
Yeah, she's a doll.

Speaker 1 Thanks, Yolanda. You're the most important kind of family, which is the family that listens to the population.
Doesn't hate you for cracking an egg over their head when you were five. That's right.

Speaker 1 There's no grudges, no old grudges with those in-laws. All I've been in her mind is a great aunt.
Good time time party gal. Yeah.
Good time party girl. Probably a good gift giver, I would say.

Speaker 1 I'm terrible at gift giving. Really? She's a great gift gal.
I'm a piece of shit.

Speaker 1 What, gift cards? Just all Starbucks gift cards everywhere.

Speaker 1 I just forget. Yeah.

Speaker 1 More than that. I try to make it seem like as if I'm a Seventh-day Adventist.
I don't give gifts. I don't either.
Like, oh, Karen doesn't do that.

Speaker 1 Can we agree, and we did this on our last birthdays, that we don't give each other gifts. Let's not do that for each other.
Never. No.

Speaker 1 I might pick you up something if you see it. Totally.
It's like, that's okay. All year round.
Yeah. But if it has to be on your birthday, I'm going to let you down.

Speaker 1 I don't want you to be stressed out and then feel guilty. No way.
I don't even. We podcasted on your birthday and I didn't even know it was your birthday.

Speaker 1 Because I don't want to put that shit on people. I'm not going to be able to do that.
But then I feel worse.

Speaker 1 I didn't know. I know, but what do you get? I'm not on Facebook.
I keep to myself. I'm a fiercely private person.
Hey, it's my birthday today.

Speaker 1 You can't say that. Didn't it feel weird just now? Yeah.

Speaker 1 All right, let's talk about murder.

Speaker 1 Are you ready? That was called, that was called Family Forum. That last part.
That was called Working Out Friendship Details. Friendship rules.

Speaker 1 This is an important thing because I swear to God, if I'm friends with a person and they give me some fucking three stacks of beautifully wrapped gifts, aren't you like, I'm like, get off.

Speaker 1 Yeah, we're not going to be. I don't want this from you.
You're going to be very disappointed when your birthday rolls around. Getting this from me.
And then I feel obligated.

Speaker 1 And then I write this card that's like, hey,

Speaker 1 thank you for forcing this liking me out of me. Can I just take you for a fucking meal? All right.
Yeah. And actually, you should.
And I will.

Speaker 1 I feel you owe me.

Speaker 1 Who went first last week? I think you did. Okay, good.
Am I wrong?

Speaker 1 All right, we're taking a quickie break. Stay tuned.
And then my favorite murders are happening.

Speaker 1 And we're back. Hello.
Hi. I'm looking at the photo right now on Instagram that we took from that recording of

Speaker 1 Stephen. I have not seen this photo since back then, probably.
Right. Of your house.
Oh, my God. Look at everything.
I know. You could actually, when I saw that picture, that's what I said.

Speaker 1 I go, I wonder if George has seen this lately because that is just like it captured a moment of your old apartment, like with all your stuff stuff and different things and like what your life looked like nine years ago it did it was steven on the ground there like what the what our whole lives were like back then in my cute little apartment oh my god this is like i'm i'm clamped all over yeah i mean and i'm shit sing it it's almost like that's our point of view like the other picture was stephen's point of view to us recording but i do i definitely took this one that that's my love seat i think that i'm taking this from yeah it makes sense with my whiskey my whiskey on the table if you'll notice that is a vintage Rock's glass, which I don't use anymore because there's lead.

Speaker 1 All that lead that you were drinking that night and all things. That it gave Stephen.

Speaker 1 Here, Stephen,

Speaker 1 this will make you feel better. Yeah, we were talking about all kinds of, I mean, we were talking about it.
We've talked about it a ton. I said it then.

Speaker 1 I feel the same way. The Johnny Gosh case kills me.
It is. You still can't handle it.

Speaker 1 It's one of those things where, like, I think part of the draw and I think the emotional interplay, if I may, and I and I may not.

Speaker 1 I wish it were of this show is like, or of any true crime kind of fan's experience is that you're looking into this like horrifying, you know, gaping maw of human mystery, I guess.

Speaker 1 Human mystery and misery. Misery.
pain, people being stuck in places with no answers, like unfathomable loss.

Speaker 1 yeah but then also loss but then almost like a person coming back like are they really there will we know like it's so heartbreaking yeah everything about that and it hasn't gotten better and that's one of those cases well the other the other one we mentioned was the Jacob Wetterling case which I will mention every single time that season one of in the dark that is about this case when they were like days or a week before they were going to release the show his murderer was caught.

Speaker 1 I mean, talk about timing. It's, and it's an incredible show.
So make sure you check out season one of In the Dark. Season one of In the Dark.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 Entertainment Weekly. Look at us go.

Speaker 1 I mean, that Entertainment Weekly spread was really fun. That was a very cool moment.
Was this the spread or it's keep saying we were mentioned? Oh, it could be. Yeah, you know what?

Speaker 1 The one where I screwed it up and was like, it's us and Sunlit Youth when it was supposed to be, it's us and local natives. So embarrassing.

Speaker 1 I apologize on the next episode. But local natives is a cool band, and we were mentioned in there.
But then I think maybe a couple of months or a year later

Speaker 1 was when it was the spread. That's right.
Well, you know, we were actually in my loft by that, by those, when those photos got taken. So that's how you know.
That's right.

Speaker 1 That's how we know it's progressed in time forward. That's right.
Instead of having carpet, I now have like grayish wood floors that are just hideous. And that's how you know we've made it.

Speaker 1 That's how you know you're moving on up. Yeah, when you have fake gray wood floors.
Yeah. I like that we said to each other, we don't have to give each other gifts.
It's very that's the way to do it.

Speaker 1 That was a relief, I think. I have that relief when I meet other friends that are also like, yeah, I don't do gifts either.

Speaker 1 Or like with Vince, where it's like, well, we don't really, like, he's not like hardcore about it and I'm not.

Speaker 1 And so we don't, I don't always feel the have to feel the pressure every year because he does so great and I do so, you know, right.

Speaker 1 It just happens when it fucking happens, not like, it's not expected. And that almost makes it better when you get a gift or give a gift that the person's not, like, you don't feel obligated to give.

Speaker 1 Yeah, it's that kind of beholden thing where someone sends you something and you're like, okay, so then the thing I get you has to be equal, if not greater in emotional value, the hard element of gift giving.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah.
Some people in my family like insist on continuing to give adults gifts at the holidays. Yeah.
And I just think it should be like, just, let's all just bring a dessert. That's the gift.

Speaker 1 You know, right. Bring a box of C's and give the kids presents.
Like, we don't need gifts anymore. I'm sorry to, this will be way off.

Speaker 1 Well, it's not, it's on topic for what you just said, but it's a little off. But

Speaker 1 I think I told you this. You can go onto the C's website and design your own box.

Speaker 1 So you can just go through and do the exercise of what would you put together if it was your custom-made box just for you to eat. Yeah.
And I did that one night simply just to pass the time.

Speaker 1 Well, they send it to you in the mail. Yeah.
So it can be whatever you want in there, but it's like, you know, how use the normal nuts and choose, say, for example.

Speaker 1 It's like, that's Vince's nuts and shoes, and I'm assorted, and we fight about it constantly. Okay, the fight's over because if you go on there, you can split it down the center.

Speaker 1 You can do it however you want, fill the whole thing with caramel patties, whatever you want to do. You can get it.
Get your fucking chocolate covered nuts away from me.

Speaker 1 I'm not a fucking hippie health nut. Like, give me

Speaker 1 caramel. Give me fucking marshmallow.

Speaker 1 I want the like indulgent ones, not like, I don't want trail mix when I'm eating dessert. You know, I hear you.
I understand.

Speaker 1 But for me, the combination of their roasted almonds and like milk chocolate is so outstanding. But you know what? I never had.

Speaker 1 And then I swear to God, we'll stop talking about this because it's not the right show. And I want to eat it now.
Yeah. And I'm so hungry.
Have you ever had those scotch mellow bars there? Yeah.

Speaker 1 The fucking. With the marshmallow and the caramel.
Yep. It's ridiculous.
It's the first one I go to whenever I open a box. It's like there's something about that combo.
It's balanced so perfectly.

Speaker 1 Mary C,

Speaker 1 just hats off to you once again, man. Love you.
And like, so proud of you. It's like an LA institution.
You know, it's right. It's like, Jesus, I love it.
She's a baller, baller, baller.

Speaker 1 All right. Well, should we get into my story? Should we go back to talking about this episode?

Speaker 1 Yeah. This one, yeah.
This one,

Speaker 1 I had forgotten about this. And

Speaker 1 I forgot about the DNA thing at the very end, which is just mind-blowing. So yeah,

Speaker 1 we'll let you tell us. But from 2016, this is George's story about Gary Earl Leiterman and the Michigan murders.

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Speaker 1 I know I've mentioned already how much I love my entryway table, but I swear to God, because the path that it's on, like you have to walk out of the front of my house to walk to the bathroom.

Speaker 1 So I pass it four times a day and I love it more every time. It's like perfectly made, stylish, all these things that I needed and wanted.
And it was under $100.

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Speaker 1 We're back.

Speaker 1 And we're back.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 hi. We're back.

Speaker 1 Hi. All right.

Speaker 1 George's first this week. Okay.

Speaker 1 So,

Speaker 1 are you ready to put your phone down and listen to me?

Speaker 1 I was going to send you that picture.

Speaker 1 You get me every goddamn time. What if I was that big of a dick?

Speaker 1 Are you ready to listen? That's my one trigger. Is phone stuff? No, I'm kidding.
I don't give a shit about anything.

Speaker 1 I'm pulling this microphone forward and leaning back. Okay, go to instagram.com slash my favorite murder to see a photo we just took.
Yeah, I have no makeup on. Neither do I.

Speaker 1 And my pants are just completely unbuttoned and unzipped. It's my Alicia Keys photo.
All right. I'm taking this out.
Is it going to make a lot of noise? No, I'm I'm not.

Speaker 1 I'm not going to make one move. Stephen, you better tell her if she.
I just want to relax. Keeping an eye on her.
Okay, yeah. Clink clonks.
Give me the finger. All right.

Speaker 1 All right. So my favorite murder this week is that of

Speaker 1 Gary Earl Lederman and the Michigan murders. Ooh.
So

Speaker 1 it's kind of a mashup. Okay.

Speaker 1 All right. In the late 1960s, there was a serial killer targeting young women in the college town of Ann Arbor, Michigan.

Speaker 1 He was called the co-ed killer. He became known as a co-ed killer.
And he murdered women in and around Ann Arbor in a two-year period. Okay.
His M.O.

Speaker 1 was picking up young women between the ages of 13 and 21. Then he would rape, beat, and murder them, typically by stabbing or strangulation.

Speaker 1 Sometimes their bodies would be mutilated, which I don't get into, don't worry. Okay.
If you're squeamish.

Speaker 1 After death, before being discarded in a desolate area. And he was also known to visit their bodies before they were found.
Ooh. Yeah, he was a fucking creep.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 Like a gross, fucked up, sadistic creep.

Speaker 1 He was the OG dead Bundy, it sounds like. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1 He was like, I think, I don't know if, oh, I should have looked this up, but they must have had the term serial killer already because they called him that.

Speaker 1 But it was like before this was like a known thing. Right.
Serial killing.

Speaker 1 So two young women attributed to the co-ed killer had been found when the body of Jane Mixer, a brilliant 23-year-old law student at the University of Michigan, was found on March 21st, 1969.

Speaker 1 She was found in a cemetery just west of Ann Arbor, and it was assumed she was a victim of the serial killer, the co-wed killer.

Speaker 1 But some of the details of her murder were different than the established MO of the co-ed killer. Jane had disappeared after posting a note on a college rideshare bulletin board.
Oh, fuck, right?

Speaker 1 I mean,

Speaker 1 honey. Yeah.

Speaker 1 She was seeking a ride across the state

Speaker 1 to her hometown of Muskegon, where she intended, oh, yeah, this is the worst part. She intended to inform her family of her engagement and imminent move to New York.

Speaker 1 Like, she intended to inform everyone of the beautiful life she was building for herself. Yeah.
And was excited to start. She just had some great news.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 It's like, oh, her parents have been waiting for this day. Yeah.

Speaker 1 A guy she met at law school who was a sweet angel. They were going to move to New York and pursue their careers.
Her sweet baby angle.

Speaker 1 I'm sorry. I forgot about that.
That's my saying. I love, oh, right.
TM. Thank y'all.

Speaker 1 Yeah, it makes me really sad.

Speaker 1 You know, like, I wonder how, like, well, there's one thing about hitchhiking that we are always like, don't hitchhike.

Speaker 1 But the other thing of like putting it, hey, if anyone's heading to like fucking Muskegon, I need a ride. I mean, in this day and age, I think it's a little bit better.
Right.

Speaker 1 If you're going to do that in 1969, don't do it. Get away from any corkboard of any kind.
Yeah. There's nothing good is happening.
No. Everything's laced with acid.

Speaker 1 Come on.

Speaker 1 Oh, those were great quotes. Amazing.

Speaker 1 I'm really mad about it. I had no idea.
No, it's ridiculous. So her body had been found in a cemetery atop a grave.
Whoa.

Speaker 1 She had been, and we learned this from, how to say this from Jean Bonet, garrotted, correct? Yeah. Garretted? Garretted? I don't know.
All right. With a nylon stocking, and it wasn't her own stalking.

Speaker 1 It was come to find out.

Speaker 1 But the way she died was that she was shot twice in the head with a.22 caliber.

Speaker 1 She hadn't been beaten or sexually assaulted like the other victims of the COA killer had, but she did have her dress pulled up showing her underwear.

Speaker 1 But it had been carefully covered up with her yellow raincoat afterwards. And her shoes and her copy of Catch-22 had been carefully placed nearby.

Speaker 1 So like this person took care. It was like painting a picture.

Speaker 1 Yeah, and like covering her body is such I mean, we all know what it means now, but back then it was like we didn't didn't understand, like, that really meant caretaking this person, right?

Speaker 1 Which means a personal relationship, usually. I didn't, yes, you're right.
All right. I thought that's what you were saying.
No, but you're right. I just, yeah, it means, yeah,

Speaker 1 you're so smart. Um,

Speaker 1 I'm just gonna hand this whole podcast over to you. Don't do it, baby.
Please don't do it. So, four days after she's discovered,

Speaker 1 the body,

Speaker 1 another body of the co-ed victim, the co-ed killer is found, Marilyn Skelton. She disappeared while hitchhiking in Ann Arbor, and her murder more closely resembled the Emma of the Siri killer.

Speaker 1 I wrote, fucked up fact.

Speaker 1 Each woman up until this point, including Jane Mixer, had been menstruating at the time of their death. Oh.
What in the actual fuck?

Speaker 1 What are the chances?

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 1 Who works at the tampon store? Is my first as I'm. Oh, you think it's a...

Speaker 1 well they wore sanitary napkins like one up to their chins who sold those sanitary napkin belts did you just say that one up to their chin have you seen these things can i tell you a hilarious and very quick anecdote always my friend lisa lanyon who i went to high school

Speaker 1 saying her full name are you about to tell an embassy no she'd like it okay

Speaker 1 um i spent the night at her house one night and i wanted to wash my face before we went to bed i couldn't find anything to hold my hair back and then i found this this

Speaker 1 white elastic, weird headband that had plastic clips on it. And I was like, whatever.
Doubled it up, threw my hair back, washed my face. Oh, my God.
Came out of the bathroom.

Speaker 1 Her mother started laughing so hard she could not breathe.

Speaker 1 And then Lisa was like, Karen, you have a sanitary napkin belt on your head. The joke is on them because what the fuck? It was like some old thing.

Speaker 1 I think the story was like her mom showed her, like, this is what you used to have to use and then threw it in the bathroom drawer.

Speaker 1 oh my gosh it was like some old thing she found of like lisa can you believe this he used to have her mom had this great boston accent her mom was hilarious that is the most beautiful story i've ever heard in my life and i own her mom lost her mind when she saw me and she was like you are the funniest girl where i was like i was just putting a hairband in my hair how embarrassing but good for you for washing your face before bed

Speaker 1 Thanks, Gee.

Speaker 1 Pro tip as someone who has open adult acne on her face right now. Always wash your face before bed.
Seriously, it's something that's very hard to do.

Speaker 1 Once you're in your like fourth episode of Rosemary Time, you're like, I'm not getting off this couch. Who cares? That's why, within arm's reach at all times, you have face wipes everywhere.
Going

Speaker 1 to girl. Tip for the lazy.
There'll be more of those coming up. We're very lazy.

Speaker 1 That was a great segue. That was the best story I've ever made.
Sorry. No, don't sorry.
That needs to be the girl who makes those amazing cartoons of us. Oh, yeah.
Comic strips of us.

Speaker 1 Can she, can that lovely girl please make one of this story? Yep. And give me a button-nose.

Speaker 1 I demand it.

Speaker 1 Everyone keeps commenting when I put photos, like drawings on

Speaker 1 Instagram of how that you have a button nose and amazing cheekbones in every drawing because you do. That's right.
You just bend people to your will. Tell me I'm pretty.
We with the old fucking hair.

Speaker 1 Unless you challenge.

Speaker 1 Matt McCarthy actually texted me button nose the other morning. He did.

Speaker 1 Oh, shout out to Matt McCarthy. He is.
He was sarcastic. Yeah, but he listens.
He listens and loves. Maybe he sarcastically listens.

Speaker 1 No, I think he genuinely listens, but was being sarcastic about my button nose. Okay, so Matt McCarthy over the We Watch Wrestling Podcast.
We watch wrestling podcasts if you like wrestling.

Speaker 1 All right. All right.
Back to the story. Back to the murders.
Back to murder. All right.

Speaker 1 So, da-da-da-da-da. All had been menstruating.
Crazy, creepy. Fucking weird.
And like, seems linked, right? What are the chances? What are the chances? That's insane.

Speaker 1 So after three more murders of a 13 year old named don luis basom and 21 year old alice elizabeth callum with his final victim which was due to his capture being an 18 year old named karen sue benner benneman

Speaker 1 john norman collins a former fraternity dude

Speaker 1 was caught

Speaker 1 He's that young? Or he's just former? No, he was, he was, oh, God, I don't have his age, but he was a young man. He was in college, like college age, too.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 And honestly, like, between you and me, he was fucking hot.

Speaker 1 Oh, that's, they're the worst. That's the fucking, it's the Ted Bundy thing.
Well, that's why these girls would get in his car and get on his motorcycle. He was a cute college dude.
He's not anymore.

Speaker 1 He's fucking gross, but look at an old photo of

Speaker 1 he was

Speaker 1 no one's gonna get that. He's not the gross guy.

Speaker 1 If a guy rolls up and is like, hey, hey, can you help me with with my thing? And yeah, and they look creepy, people are going to go,

Speaker 1 no, I can use my very basic senses to be like, no, thanks. Yeah, it's this automatic thing of trusting an attractive face.
That's right.

Speaker 1 Giving credit to being attractive is that means you're a good person, trustworthy person. So what does it mean that people think I'm a terrible person? Does that mean I'm unattractive?

Speaker 1 Nobody thinks that. Wait, you're trying to give people rides?

Speaker 1 Always.

Speaker 1 You're rolling up and trying to get people to get into your car to not kill them. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Just to drive them around and talk about your own stuff. Yeah.
It just seemed like to invent sometimes.

Speaker 1 When I say I went to therapy today, all I mean is I picked someone up and made them drive around with me for an hour. You made them listen to you for an hour.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 And then I gave them 20 bucks and dropped them off. Thank you.

Speaker 1 Pay.

Speaker 1 So he had been interviewed by police previously, but had been eliminated as a suspect.

Speaker 1 And part of the reason he was caught was due to the identification by a clerk of the wig shop, which his last victim named Karen

Speaker 1 had visited. Yes, this was an episode of A Crime to Remember.
The one with the car?

Speaker 1 What? It's like the one thing they knew about him, like they had no idea who it was for a long time, but the one thing they knew it was like a blue car. It was a motorcycle.
Oh, oh.

Speaker 1 Is that the one where the little girl gets gets kidnapped, like from her driveway? Yes. And they knew the car.
Yeah. And that turns out it was a guy that lived right in the neighborhood.
Yeah. Okay.

Speaker 1 I'm combining. Sorry.
I'm combining. Yeah, I know you're right, though.
So,

Speaker 1 Karen, the last Karen. I've watched too many crime shows.
Oh, my God. They're all the same in my mind now.
So, Karen. Hi.

Speaker 1 Karen, the last person who was murdered by him that day, the day of her disappearance, had visited a wick shop.

Speaker 1 And the clerk had remembered that Karen

Speaker 1 was visiting her store to purchase a hairpiece.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 there was a young man waiting outside for her on a blue motorcycle.

Speaker 1 And Karen told the clerk,

Speaker 1 I mean, man, this bums me out really.

Speaker 1 She said to the clerk to observe the man with whom she had accepted a ride, a hawkeye and a motorcycle.

Speaker 1 stating that she had made two foolish errors in her life, purchasing a wig and accepting a ride from a stranger.

Speaker 1 And then she stated, I've got to be either the bravest or the dumbest girl alive because I've just accepted a ride from this guy.

Speaker 1 What? For the fucking chances.

Speaker 1 She was then seen climbing onto the motorcycle before

Speaker 1 riding away with him. You know, that makes me think of, it's like when you get a bad feeling in your gut.
And you make light of it. That's right.

Speaker 1 And you feel like, oh, if I just say this to one person, it'll make it less a bad feeling. And that's crazy.
And exactly. When you're like, this crazy thing just happened to me.

Speaker 1 This person assaulted me. And you're like, you should be taking it seriously.

Speaker 1 Well, no, I just mean it more in the way of like before anything happened, before anything bad happens, but you do have the thing of this isn't right.

Speaker 1 Like what?

Speaker 1 Like that. I was gonna, I mean, from your own life.

Speaker 1 Are we fighting?

Speaker 1 That was amazing. Like what? No, I've heard from your own life.
Like what? Most of the time, if I get a thing, I walk.

Speaker 1 I don't do this.

Speaker 1 But I think probably back when I drank, I would do it more. Right.
But there wasn't a lot of information coming in because of the gallons of whiskey that I had inside me. Yeah.

Speaker 1 There's definitely jokes I've made that are like,

Speaker 1 I have a hot date tonight. And it's like, well, it's this

Speaker 1 with this person you don't fucking know. Yeah.
And it's, and you're really actually, you should be afraid.

Speaker 1 Yeah, you're nervous and you're telling people, and you're trying not to act quote-unquote weird by telling them I'm nervous. So you're just trying to make a joke about it.

Speaker 1 But then Vince and I got married, so it was fun.

Speaker 1 No, but one time I did go on a date with someone.

Speaker 1 I was going on a date with someone, and I gave his phone number to my best friend. This is before self-like most before cell phones to be like, hey, if I don't show up tomorrow,

Speaker 1 here's his info. Yeah.

Speaker 1 That's not cool. Well, but also now,

Speaker 1 because a lot of people talk about this

Speaker 1 to us, which is, I don't want to leave my house. I'm so anxious.
I'm so nervous. I think everyone's going to kill me or whatever, which I think is people connecting with us and people reaching out.

Speaker 1 They've heard us say it. They're going to just say it too because they're admitting it.

Speaker 1 But there's also that thing of just, it's just a safety precaution. Nobody cares.
Nobody thinks you're weird.

Speaker 1 You give that number and then you just have a little thing in place Because it's, I think it's a smart thing to do. It's just taking, it's being proactive for yourself.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 Because, yeah, you're going to go on a date. If you've met a person, none of the other alarm bells are going off.
Right.

Speaker 1 It doesn't mean you shouldn't, that's a person you shouldn't go on a date with because it's just being precautious.

Speaker 1 But, but, yeah, but also do that thing that might feel weird, but you can just do it for with a friend. You don't have to do it to every person you know.
Yeah. Then you're being like neurotic.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 But you, you put a little safety measure out there. Hell yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 All right.

Speaker 1 Ready?

Speaker 1 Um, accepted the ride.

Speaker 1 So that's how he, one of the, one of the main ways he got caught that led to all the other evidence against him.

Speaker 1 And in August 1970, John Norman Collins was found guilty of first-degree murder of Karen, his last victim.

Speaker 1 And he was sentenced to serve a life imprisonment with hard labor in solitary confinement.

Speaker 1 He never admitted his guilt in either the murder of Karen or any of the other murders linked to the Michigan murder he is suspected of committing.

Speaker 1 So they only tried him for that one crime, for the one murder that they had a ton of evidence on and eyewitness evidence. And then he was never going to get out.

Speaker 1 So they didn't try him for the other murders, which has to be hard when you're the family of those other victims. And how many other people were there? Did you?

Speaker 1 Well, here's, okay, so here's the the rest of the story. Oh, shit.
So they, I mean, up until 2002, they figured he had like seven murders in the area.

Speaker 1 But

Speaker 1 the case of Jane Mixer

Speaker 1 was considered solved by the fact that John Norman Collins had did it until 2002 when Michigan State detectives noticed that a lot of the details of her murder didn't match up with Collins' crime.

Speaker 1 So they took a look at the case again and they took three drops of sweat that had been on Jane Mixer's pantyhose and a single drop of blood that had been on her hand to be tested for DNA.

Speaker 1 All right. The DNA didn't match John Norman Collins, the co-wit killer, but it did match 62-year-old Gary Lederman, who was a former nurse.

Speaker 1 from southwestern Michigan, who was a drug salesman in Michigan at the time of the murders in the area.

Speaker 1 It was thought that Lederman was the person who had responded to Jane's note on the college rideshare bulletin asking for a lift home because

Speaker 1 somehow

Speaker 1 a dorm room book,

Speaker 1 a phone book in the dorm rooms read the words, quote, mixer and Muskegon, which is where she was going, and were

Speaker 1 linked to his handwriting. But that was in 2002 that they found those, or that they linked those.

Speaker 1 All right. Anyways, so maybe they had the evidence, but they just hadn't kind of put anything together.
Yeah. Sitting somewhere?

Speaker 1 Yes.

Speaker 1 And then when his house was searched, where he had lived with his wife

Speaker 1 of 27 years,

Speaker 1 two Polaroid pictures of a 16-year-old foreign exchange student who had lived with him and his wife were found.

Speaker 1 The girl was drugged unconscious, lying on his bed with her clothing pulled back to show her junk.

Speaker 1 And it was similar to the pose that Jane had been left in in the cemetery. Whoa.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 the sweatstains linked to Lederman, not the serial killer, but the drop of blood found on her hand was linked through DNA to someone else.

Speaker 1 It was a Detroit man who was at the time of the DNA match serving life in prison for murder?

Speaker 1 The problem was, ready for this?

Speaker 1 That John Ruelis,

Speaker 1 whose DNA matched the blood drop, was four years old at the time of the murder.

Speaker 1 Right?

Speaker 1 So the defense argued that the state police lab had contaminated the samples when both men's DNA were tested at the lab within a day of each other.

Speaker 1 Lederman's had been tested separately.

Speaker 1 He had a recent arrest for forging prescription meds from where he worked as a nurse, and Ruella's was for murder, but the cross-contamination made the DNA match to Lederman.

Speaker 1 It should have made it in the court case just null and void. Because if you find someone else's DNA on this person,

Speaker 1 there's no way that person could have committed the crime, then the rest of the DNA should be fucking thrown out of thrown out as evidence, right?

Speaker 1 Are you saying that's the law? Are you just saying that's like logic? That's logic to me. We can get to that.
It didn't get thrown out.

Speaker 1 The prosecution argued that Ruelis,

Speaker 1 who was four years old at the time and a chronic nose bleeder, must have been at the crime scene and somehow got a drop of blood. On your face that you're making is correct, is what I feel too.

Speaker 1 Yeah, a four-year-old with a bloody nose wandered over to a dead body. They didn't argue that there was a mistake in the crime lag, but crime lab, but the other DNA was legitimate, and here's why.

Speaker 1 They said that there was a four-year-old boy

Speaker 1 in the cemetery and had somehow gotten his blood on her. That, in and of itself, is the creepiest thing we've talked about this whole episode.

Speaker 1 The idea of a four-year-old with a bloody nose walking through a cemetery and stumbling upon a dead body. And it's absurd, but

Speaker 1 he was convicted.

Speaker 1 Lederman was convicted of the murder of Jane Mixer based on the DNA evidence and these other little basic things.

Speaker 1 According to the book Inside the Cell, The Dark Side of Forensic DNA by Aaron Murphy, which we all need to read immediately. I'm fucking buying.

Speaker 1 The lab analyst admitted that they routinely processed samples from different cases at the same time, as well as one of the negative controls processed in this case at the time, that of the panehost sample was processed, that was processed, had become contaminated, like not even connected to all of this.

Speaker 1 But the analyst had tried to hide that fact. Oh.

Speaker 1 In addition, Ruel's DNA wasn't even processed at that lab. It was sent out for testing in a different location, but they still were able to cross-contaminate at that.

Speaker 1 at the lab where it had originated. Like, that's some fucked up shit.
Yeah. Right.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 after minutes of deliberation, Lederman was convicted of first-degree murder and got life in prison. He's minutes of deliberation?

Speaker 1 Jesus. I know.

Speaker 1 All right. So I kind of wrote these things of like, here's what's hard to argue

Speaker 1 with of Lederman

Speaker 1 being guilty is that All of the crimes that we're talking, including Mixers, had to do with Ride Somewhere, which was the MO of the co-ed killer.

Speaker 1 They all had something tied around their necks, some of which didn't belong to the murder victim, including Jane's.

Speaker 1 The first three were menstruating, which is fucking insane. Bizarre.
They were all left in locations where they would eventually be found, kind of on purpose.

Speaker 1 They all were connected to the university, which, I mean, if you live in Ann Arbor, that's kind of hard not to. Yeah, it's a university town.

Speaker 1 A lot of them were strangled, and the fifth known victim was shot in the head as well. So it wasn't totally against his MO.

Speaker 1 But at the same time, the majority of those murders, he was never tried and convicted for. So it's not like we can say that he did them definitively.
Right.

Speaker 1 But according to Lederman's roommate in college, Lederman owned and liked to shoot a.22 caliber and he was obsessed with the serial murders. Ooh.
So it's kind of, and it's kind of this,

Speaker 1 if any, it reminds me of making a murderer where it's like, I don't know if he's guilty or innocent, but he shouldn't have been prosecuted based on these pieces of evidence. Yeah, that's right.

Speaker 1 And that's really the only thing you have at the end of the day because everything else is bias and circumstance and kind of judgment.

Speaker 1 Yeah, and it was 2002 at the height of like CSI being a big thing and everyone thinking DNA was like the end-all, be-all, and not realizing that so much of it, like eyewitness testimony, was flawed because it was

Speaker 1 because human error.

Speaker 1 And people not admitting, like covering up human errors. Like, good God.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 So that's

Speaker 1 that's crazy. Yeah.

Speaker 1 So you're, you, you believe that Lederman should not be in jail.

Speaker 1 You think that that last death, the woman that was found in the graveyard is a co-ed killer. I don't think, I can't say that definitively.
I think there should have been more evidence to try.

Speaker 1 I feel like now in 2016, we should should go back and look and find what other, whatever other evidence we can find and DNA test those other victims that we are attributing to the co-ed killer, kind of cross-reference them with Jane Mixer and see what really happened.

Speaker 1 But I don't, I'm not, I can't say definitively that he should be let out. I just think in the same way Stephen Avery was like, should get a new trial.

Speaker 1 And, you know, serial Anand Syed

Speaker 1 should be, be, I don't know,

Speaker 1 you can't, you can't convict someone, especially when they have shoddy defense based on these basic things that,

Speaker 1 you know, in the future we're going to laugh at as like I know.

Speaker 1 And it could, the future could be like four years.

Speaker 1 Right. I mean, 2002 seems not that long ago.
Right. It's so huge.
It's a huge difference

Speaker 1 when it comes to like scientific evidence and all this.

Speaker 1 Now,

Speaker 1 where do you think that bloody four-year-old plays into this? I mean,

Speaker 1 that's the only reason I'm talking about this murder is because that is so fucking insane and so clearly

Speaker 1 human error of cross-contamination in that lab. I can't believe the trial went forward after that was found out.

Speaker 1 That lawyer, when he found that out, that that's what that blood spatter was, must have been so stoked.

Speaker 1 The defense?

Speaker 1 Who, I don't know, whoever found that it was just like, this is

Speaker 1 a big reveal of like, is this blood?

Speaker 1 Well, it was a four-year-old. The defense should have been stoked that that was, that they found a four-year-old's blood who had been, whose DNA had been tested in the same lab a day before.

Speaker 1 But for some reason, he didn't pursue that enough in the trial to convince the jury that that was fucking insane. Because at the time, like you're saying, it's like DNA is a lock.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 I mean, those prosecutors were good. I'm sure.
Well, and also you get somebody, it's like

Speaker 1 it's, you know,

Speaker 1 people want a thing like that. People want that story finished, closed up.

Speaker 1 They want, they want it closed up and they want somebody to pay. Yeah.

Speaker 1 And that's a hard position, you know. We've felt that same way.
Yeah. Where it's just like, erase what's happening or like somebody gets

Speaker 1 justice. Yeah.
Justice is such a fraudulent term.

Speaker 1 All right. Wow.
Horrifying in every way. Are there updates on this case? There aren't many.

Speaker 1 Yeah, that story is just like piling on horrifying things. There's just like too many.
Yes. Too many.
But during my story, Karen, you did share a funny anecdote about

Speaker 1 misusing a sanitary napkin belt because like I think we were a lot jokier during the stories back then than we are now.

Speaker 1 Well, yeah, we didn't, we just thought we were talking to each other. So, when we would go off on tangents, which we always do, it would just be like, oh, wait, this makes me think of this thing.

Speaker 1 Okay, now back to this horrible thing. And it wasn't really, it didn't read to us as kind of stark and harsh and insensitive as it does now.
Right.

Speaker 1 I'd also like to point out, as I mentioned earlier, that full glass of whiskey that I, I don't do that anymore. Maybe a can of wine, but a full glass of whiskey does not a good podcast make.
So yeah.

Speaker 1 But it's great thing.

Speaker 1 Hey, but good thing you brought it up because that iconic story was turned into a work of art by Nick Terry, of course, for MFM Animated.

Speaker 1 It's called Hair Tie, and you can see it in all its glory on the exactly right YouTube channel.

Speaker 1 I mean, if you're having a bad day and you just go to the exactly right YouTube channel and binge watch MFM Animated, it's a joy.

Speaker 1 Nick Terry has done something that like as a self-loathing Gen Xer who just wants to, like, turn away most of the time, Nick Terry makes me enjoy what we have made here. Yeah.

Speaker 1 In a way that's like, it just means the world. It's like being able to see it in the way of like, oh, I get this.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 Like, it points out the special moments that you can, we miss because we're fucking halfway talking about something else by the time it's over.

Speaker 1 It's we're all sanitary napkin belt, which is like, most people don't know what that is. Also, this is the episode where I say sweet baby angle.

Speaker 1 And for good or bad, we do have bumper stickers that say that on the exactly right store if you want to go buy one. That's right.

Speaker 1 I love how sweet baby angle has become just as important as sweet baby angel, the original one. And it was because someone wrote in, right? And they accidentally wrote angle.

Speaker 1 Probably. I think that's what it was.

Speaker 1 And then there was, I did have the story from my hometown of somebody wrote, when I was in high school, somebody wrote on a wall in black spray paint, Angle of Death.

Speaker 1 And we would, my friend would be like, oh my god it's the angle of death and like

Speaker 1 a recurrence i wanted to open a vintage clothing shop called hail satin wouldn't that have been

Speaker 1 yes i'm still trademarking that like you should that's that's very like early age and provocateur look we're still doing it we can't help it it is what we're like oh conversationally we just can't stop doing it stop it let's get back into it The story that I'm about to introduce that you do is so incredible.

Speaker 1 I think it's one of your best. It has an incredible update at the very end.

Speaker 1 And I think you get into this groove right now in this time period when you're doing like Mary Vincent and this story and some other really powerful ones that are just like legendary in the over 400 episodes we've done.

Speaker 1 That's right.

Speaker 1 Also, there's thank you very much. That's a lovely compliment, but I am ripping off the television show I survived directly.

Speaker 1 I credit them at the time,

Speaker 1 but especially in retrospect, I was just trying to get this insane podcast homework done.

Speaker 1 And so I couldn't, all of this is the producing minds of the people who made I Survived and how brilliantly they made that show.

Speaker 1 So I could basically tell the Jennifer Maury story because the first time I saw it, it affected me so deeply that I never forgot it.

Speaker 1 So like that day, I'm positive I was coming from one of my writing jobs.

Speaker 1 And I was like, oh, I know, I'll just re-watch that and write down the facts and then just retell it the the way Jennifer Maury herself told this story, which is for the good or bad, that is how I got through the year that I worked on this podcast and had a job, if not two.

Speaker 1 But I do think it was the sincere, because of my true genuine like respect and admiration for that show and the way they tell victim stories. It was like, well, great.

Speaker 1 Let's tell victim stories and let's get those. Yeah.
Now I know the correct story, not the fucking

Speaker 1 over-dramatized bullshit. The first-hand experience of a survivor is one of the most important things we could hear.
Okay, so let's listen to Karen's story about Jennifer Maury.

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Goodbye.

Speaker 1 So, this week, I'm going back to my tried and true, which is

Speaker 1 I'm going to retell you one of my favorite episodes of I Survived. Well, I never, I've never seen the show, so please do.

Speaker 1 And this one I love because this plays on if you uh

Speaker 1 if this you if you have some home alone as a young lady fears this is gonna cause some problems so uh spoiler alert trigger alert uh scary scary alert oh no it has all these pieces and the first time i saw this on i survived I was like gripping the couch.

Speaker 1 I was so freaked out. So essentially, it goes a little something like this.

Speaker 1 It's April 15th, 1995, and a young,

Speaker 1 bright, beautiful, successful, 25-year-old young lawyer named Jennifer Maury

Speaker 1 goes out and has a drink with her friends after work one night. Big mistake.

Speaker 1 Her fault.

Speaker 1 She goes, she's at the local ale house. All her friends are there.

Speaker 1 She doesn't want to go at first. They convince her to stay.
Then she ends up having a great time.

Speaker 1 And she stays until midnight. Then her friend drives her home.
And

Speaker 1 she

Speaker 1 lives in an apartment complex called Bayou Park in Houston. And

Speaker 1 the reason that she picked this apartment complex to move into was because it was all about security. And it had

Speaker 1 not just like, you know, the apartment security guards,

Speaker 1 they actually hired

Speaker 1 Pinkerton security guards

Speaker 1 to work at this place. Can we go back in time? That's still a thing.
No, they've been around. That's how long they've been around.
It's still like a major company. Holy shit.

Speaker 1 So, and that name means a lot to people in security. So

Speaker 1 that's why she picked that apartment building to live in. So she goes home at midnight, goes in.
Let's say she washed her face, which is what you should do before you go to bed, ladies.

Speaker 1 So she goes in, gets ready for bed, goes to bed, turns out all the lights, wakes up at 4 a.m. There's someone on top of her.
No.

Speaker 1 Yeah, get ready for this. No.
It's going to be this the whole time. Scared.
So there's someone straddling her, and she can feel something on her neck. And she realizes.
Is it a puppy?

Speaker 1 Someone, no, it's not. She realizes someone's broken into her apartment and they're attempting to rape her.

Speaker 1 She can't figure out if she's dreaming at first. It's that the horrible in-between feeling.
And she finally, when she becomes fully awake and she realizes someone's straddling her,

Speaker 1 they've got a knife to her throat and they're going to rape her. She just starts fighting.
Good for her. So she does everything she can.

Speaker 1 She fights this guy. She grabs the knife.
It's all the stuff,

Speaker 1 all the crazy shit. And she's fighting him so hard that he cuts her from the cheekbone to the middle of her neck and he slices her neck open.

Speaker 1 So she keeps on fighting, but suddenly it gets very slippery and there's blood everywhere. And

Speaker 1 finally she starts losing blood and like the fight goes out of her. Oh no.
He takes her by the hair

Speaker 1 and he pulls her across out of the bed, across the room, throws her into the bathroom and says, you stay in here and you do not move. And he slams the door.

Speaker 1 And so she throws her back up against the door in the bathroom. She grabs a washcloth and she puts it up against her wound.
Pressure, constant pressure when you have a wound like that.

Speaker 1 Oh my god, oh my god. She throws her feet up against the wall and she's like jammed herself there so he can't come back in.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 And then she sits there and waits and listens.

Speaker 1 And she hears him zip his pants up. And then she wait, and then she hears the door close.
And then she waits a little bit longer

Speaker 1 to make sure. And then she goes to open the door and she can't open the door because there's so much blood on her hands that she cannot get a grip on the door.

Speaker 1 And she's pulling at it and pulling at it. And then she actually says in the story, she actually started laughing because she was like, oh, this is how I'm going to die.
She's one of us.

Speaker 1 I get stuck in the bathroom. And that's how I can't get help.
So finally, she gets out. She yanks the door open.
She gets out. She fumbles to throw on the hallway light.
The lights are dead.

Speaker 1 Oh my God. She crawls.
She gets to the phone. Phone's dead.
No, no, no, no. Yeah.

Speaker 1 So then she finds her cell phone.

Speaker 1 It's alive. She brings it back into the bathroom and she calls 911.

Speaker 1 So that night, a man named Richard Everett was working, was the dispatcher. He had just gotten onto his shift.
Oh my God, heroes. They're all heroes.

Speaker 1 So this is 4 a.m. when this started.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 I guess he was starting a very early morning shift then, maybe middle of the night. I don't know.

Speaker 1 So she explains to him what's happened. And he just starts telling her, you're going to be fine.
Just try to stay calm. Don't talk that much.
We just keep it.

Speaker 1 The cops and the ambulance are on their way right now. They're going to be there really soon.
You know, we could listen to this right now. And we're going to be fine.

Speaker 1 There's no fucking way I would ever listen to it. No.

Speaker 1 And she's saying, I'm bleeding so much. You please make sure they hurry or whatever.
And he's like, they're coming there as fast as they can. Just hold that washcloth.
You're going to be okay.

Speaker 1 Oh, my God.

Speaker 1 And so after like 10 minutes, he's just talking her down and she's actually starting to calm down and she's feeling okay. There's a knock at the door.
No, no, no.

Speaker 1 So she's like, there's someone's knocking at the door. And he's like, who is it? And she goes, well, hold.
So she yells from the bathroom, who is it?

Speaker 1 And he says, this is Brian Gibson, the security guard that's on

Speaker 1 duty tonight. No.

Speaker 1 I just got attacked by a guy who jumped off your balcony. Are you okay? Is that true? Is it true? And she doesn't know.
So she's like,

Speaker 1 he goes, are you okay? You should let me in.

Speaker 1 And she goes, I'm okay.

Speaker 1 I'm talking to 911 right now.

Speaker 1 And the dispatcher on 911 goes wait what's going on and she goes no it's okay it's the security guard he wants me to let him in and richard everett for no reason except for gut goes do not let him in the door and she goes no it's pinkerton security that's the whole apartment like that's the whole setup here and he goes i he

Speaker 1 said

Speaker 1 here's the thing we haven't uh notified security at your apartment complex yet so unless they have a police scanner.

Speaker 1 Yeah, but if you saw someone jumping off the doesn't matter, what is he going to do? We don't know about that story, but he goes, We just don't know what that is. Yeah.
So, just don't let him in.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 So, she's like, I'm not going to let you in right now. And the guy's like,

Speaker 1 I swear it's okay. Here's my badge.
You know, like, he's, he's like, I just need to help you. Are you, you know, are you bleeding? There's blood out here.

Speaker 1 You know, I want to make sure that you're okay. And she's like, I'm fine.

Speaker 1 The cops are on their way. And he's like, I know, I can hear the alarms, you know, I know CPR, I can help you, whatever.
And

Speaker 1 he goes, I'm sorry, I just, the dispatcher says to Jennifer, I just don't think you should let him in. And she's like, Okay, I'm really scared, though.

Speaker 1 I'm starting to lose blood, I'm getting lightheaded. Oh my god, I have a coochie twinge.
This is so exciting.

Speaker 1 Like, what if I, what if I pass out and I'm in here, and the door's locked, they kick it down, it's fine. Um,

Speaker 1 and so he's just he just keeps talking to her, and he's like, Just listen to the sound of my voice. I'm watching the cops drive up the street.
They are three minutes away.

Speaker 1 You just have to hang on for three more minutes. And meanwhile, the guy's like, Jennifer, can you talk to me? Are you okay? You know, can you just let me in? And

Speaker 1 so

Speaker 1 he wouldn't, if he was supposed to be there, he wouldn't be so insistent. He would, you know what I mean? Like.

Speaker 1 Well, but it's a woman who's bleeding and there's blood. It's like, clearly, there's a scenario.

Speaker 1 Now, if you were a security guard and you knew a woman had just gotten attacked with a knife, you would kick the door down.

Speaker 1 And she's in there bleeding out and freaking out and not letting anybody help her, you might kick the door down. Yeah.

Speaker 1 So, but Richard's like, I don't know. So just don't do it.
Well, then the knocking starts getting harder. He's like, you need to let me in here.

Speaker 1 And she, then she's starting to freak out because now she doesn't trust anybody. She has no idea what to do.
But then suddenly she hears the

Speaker 1 sirens in the background. So she knows the police.
And he's like, do you hear the sirens? They are coming up the driveway road. She's like, yes.
And he goes, so the ambulance is there.

Speaker 1 Like, you are going to live. You're fine.
So just keep that door shut and you will be fine. Well, the knocking stops.
Oh, my God. Oh my God.
Oh my God. It's totally silent outside of the door.

Speaker 1 So now she's more scared because she's like, what the fuck is it? Yeah. When the cops pull up to this apartment complex,

Speaker 1 this security guard, Brian Gibson, meets them out there and he is a mess. He is bleeding from his right hand.

Speaker 1 There's blood on his face. There's blood on his uniform.
Sure.

Speaker 1 And he tells the police his story that he walked up. He saw a guy.
He jumped down from her second-story balcony and attacked him. They got into this fight, and the guy ran off.

Speaker 1 into the woods, like into a field over on the side, and he didn't see where he went. And then he went up to check on the lady who will not let him in, who's freaking out.

Speaker 1 So the cops are like, all right, stay here. Sounds good.
They start to check everything out.

Speaker 1 There's no trail into the grass is dewy. No, it's 6 a.m.
Yep. No, nothing.
So they're like, get that guy and put him in a room over there. Yeah.
They go up to Jennifer's apartment.

Speaker 1 The ambulance has already taken her away. She's going to live.
Oh my God. Okay.
Because the show is called, I survived. She told the story herself.
with a big old scar on her neck. She's gorgeous.

Speaker 1 This woman is like gorgeous and a lawyer. So she's

Speaker 1 killing it. Yeah.
The cops go into her apartment. There's blood everywhere.

Speaker 1 There's also a Pinkerton hat. Oh, what? And there's men's underwear on the ground and a knife.

Speaker 1 So they pick up all this shit and they go back down to Brian Gibson, the security, the Pinkerton security guard that works there. Yeah, how is that in there?

Speaker 1 And they say, Can you take your shirt off, please? And he's like, No, I, no, it's fine. I was actually the one that was attacked.
And they're like, take your shirt off.

Speaker 1 There's claw marks all over his body. Oh my God.
He's not wearing underwear. Nope.
He has shaved his pubic hair.

Speaker 1 No pubic hair. Meaning no hair left behind.
That's exactly right. And he doesn't have a hat because

Speaker 1 he was the person, the security guard at the apartment building where she lived. Did he have keys to everywhere? Was

Speaker 1 well, he didn't have.

Speaker 1 Oh, yeah, he must have had keys to get into her house. Master key.
Yeah. Or some key, or he could have like, I mean, he had total access to her.

Speaker 1 Oh, sorry, shit. That was the most upsetting thing that I read.

Speaker 1 No, no, no, but I just forgot it. It's he was calling her by her first name when he was talking to her before he

Speaker 1 when he was first on her.

Speaker 1 Um, which I think is one of

Speaker 1 the other reasons she got so freaked out and fought so hard is because it's like, what the fuck is going on? Guess how much I'm sleeping tonight? Zero.

Speaker 1 But she survived.

Speaker 1 It turns out, yeah.

Speaker 1 So they arrest him. He gets 20 years for attempted murder.
Man, what the fuck?

Speaker 1 And he's on parole now.

Speaker 1 No, I'm in a fucking

Speaker 1 jump off my second story balcony. He's on parole in Texas.
When is attempted murder going to be treated like what it was intended to be?

Speaker 1 Like murder, you mean? Murder. Right.
That is so troubling to me that it's like, well, you didn't get away with it. So not because she lived.
Right. Simply because she fought.
So

Speaker 1 you don't deserve the punishment of what you were intending to fucking do. Well, and also the cops are positive that if she had let him in when he came back next time to quote-unquote check on her,

Speaker 1 he would have killed her and picked up all his shit he left. Totally.

Speaker 1 Totally.

Speaker 1 That is absolutely there. The cops are positive.
That's the reason why. So, did what's the name of the guy? The

Speaker 1 901 dispatcher? Did he get Richard Everett? All of the ribbons and whatnot. They're still friends to this day.
He went to her wedding.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Oh my God.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 They're close friends. I'm going to cry.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 And she talks about him when, in her episode of I Survived,

Speaker 1 the way she talks about him is like one of the sweetest things you've ever seen. I can't deal with that.

Speaker 1 Because he, in the worst moment of her life, like saved her life essentially in that way that like

Speaker 1 beautiful things happen too, hideous fucking things. And she went on to become the trauma support sir, the director of trauma support services of North Texas.
Gorgeous.

Speaker 1 And she, I read a thing, she went around, spoke, I mean, it was 2015, I think, when the article, what the article was from, 2013 or 2015.

Speaker 1 She was going around speaking at schools and telling people horrible things happen in life, but it's all about what you're prepared, how you're prepared for them.

Speaker 1 And basically, she gave this talk that was kind of like the stuff that we talk about, which is like running scenarios and thinking about these things can actually help you not panic and not completely lose it

Speaker 1 when something really upsetting happens because you've kind of run a scenario.

Speaker 1 You know where your cell phone is, you have things planned, you know where flashlights are, like you have things planned out a little bit so you at least can put a plan together.

Speaker 1 It's a good way to like to make sense of your anxiety and that like, well, maybe someday this anxiety or this thing that me thinking about these awful things happening is going to make me better in a

Speaker 1 situation where I need to not fucking panic because I've already run the scenario through my head.

Speaker 1 Yeah. And also it can take away from that.
Like, you don't need to beat yourself up for thinking about it. Yeah.
You don't need to tell yourself you're crazy for thinking about it.

Speaker 1 You're smart for thinking about it and you're empowered for thinking about it. And you're taking action.
It's not, you know, you don't have to live in it and shut the the door.

Speaker 1 You go out in your life knowing that you are armed with information and having an awareness and a security that you, you know, you've done as much as you can with your anxiety to prepare yourself, but you're not letting it take over your life.

Speaker 1 Yeah. And get in the way.
Like you're never, you're not going to never leave the house again because you're aware of all these fucking terrible things that happen.

Speaker 1 Well, and also it's like, this isn't a story about how all security guards are evil because a lot of them do just as good shit as Richard Everett, the 911 dispatcher, did.

Speaker 1 A lot of them have, you know, good and that good intentions of I took this job because I want to help people for this exact reason. But you take it on a case-by-case basis.

Speaker 1 So if you meet a person, you get the weird feeling in your gut, absolutely trust yourself and just get out of there. You know what I mean? You don't, that's, that's what all that's about.

Speaker 1 It's like to the individual. Arm yourself with knowledge, but don't let that

Speaker 1 overwhelm you. Yeah, and also take a break every once in a while.
And like the other day, some girl's like, I had a, she tweeted, I had a hard day at work.

Speaker 1 I'm going to drink wine and watch I Survived. And I wrote back, drink wine and watch Bob's Burgers.
If you already had a bad day, relax.

Speaker 1 That's a great suggestion. Take a break.
Watch fucking Rosemary and Time, where it's a lot of nice flowers, a lot of great accents. It's chill.
You can, don't live in it. Like,

Speaker 1 like, visit and then, and then go somewhere else for a while. That's a beautiful, take a, have a glass of wine and watch Bob's Burgers.
It's like, Bob's Burgers is the

Speaker 1 it makes me so happy. It is the most perfect show.
It's positive. It's a family that loves each other, that's funny, that

Speaker 1 isn't perfect at all.

Speaker 1 And it's hilarious. Relatable.
My six-year-old nephew is obsessed with Bob's Burgers. The songs they write for that show

Speaker 1 are the best comedy songs there are. Yeah.
It is my favorite. How they come up with those every episode

Speaker 1 blows my mind. Whoever their musical I should look it up right now.
Whoever their musical director is, fucking straight up 1,000 props to you. Yeah.

Speaker 1 And that's.

Speaker 1 Karen, that was... You tell those stories so well.
It's almost like I'm not cheating. Yeah.
When I am.

Speaker 1 Are you? I wouldn't know. This is a podcast where some of the time I just retell TV shows I'm on.
But you say that, but you tell them. You don't read them.
That's true because I've seen that one.

Speaker 1 Jennifer's, I've watched probably five times because she tells it,

Speaker 1 it's so compelling.

Speaker 1 She's so real. She's upset at certain points.
She's very angry and like very self-righteous at certain points. It's a fucking awesome thing to behold.
Well, she's a great survivor.

Speaker 1 You tell it to me like we're at a party together.

Speaker 1 Whereas if I did mine, it would be like so many missing elements of it because I can't remember half the shit that like I have to kind of like go off my own notes, which I don't copy and paste, but

Speaker 1 you know, I lead with them. Right.
Yeah. But I mean, I'm just copying her story.
Wow. I mean, that's that's stories, though.
You just, yeah.

Speaker 1 That's how I learned to tell stories is just both of my parents. That's all they did.
Yeah. It's like we're sitting by a fire.

Speaker 1 Two cavemen. Two cavemen sitting by a fire.
Tales as old as time. The only thing we have to eat are cookies.

Speaker 1 Oh.

Speaker 1 um, did it? Someone come running from

Speaker 1 I didn't say it right.

Speaker 1 Oh, he's just job of the hut right now, guys. Thanks for listening.
Do all the things that you're supposed to do and support. We love you.
We couldn't be doing better.

Speaker 1 And it's because you guys all listen and support and do all the things we always ask you to do. We couldn't thank you more for that.
The best listener. Like, you guys are the best.

Speaker 1 It's, we are so lucky. We are so fucking lucky.

Speaker 1 Just make sure that you stay sexy and you don't get murdered. Elvis, you want a cookie?

Speaker 1 You want cookie?

Speaker 1 Okay, we are back. Wow.

Speaker 1 And I know you have an update. It's epic.
Tell us. So as George was talking about, of course, you listeners really reacted.
to this story and really loved it.

Speaker 1 And then basically Jennifer Mori herself heard about this episode. And this is a story she told us backstage in Dallas, I believe.
Dallas, yeah.

Speaker 1 When she came on to our live, we invited her to the live show, but we first got an email from her. And that was one of the scariest moments where truly it was.

Speaker 1 fully like now I understand what we're doing yeah and the reality of what we're doing and I think that this is like truly the beginning of a shift because all of the kind of conjecture far away feeling that we had about the topics we were talking about and the people we were talking about, it was like the wave after wave of lessons over and over of like real people, real experiences, real relatives, real survivors, all those things.

Speaker 1 So, that email from Jennifer Mori, I was like, oh, she's going to be

Speaker 1 writing that down.

Speaker 1 She said, basically, my friend said that she had heard this podcast and they told my story. And I was really nervous.
I sat down and listened and I loved it.

Speaker 1 And I like, I was so moved and thank you so much. And it was her telling us thank you.
And it was, I was so grateful. I was like, it was amazing.

Speaker 1 So then when we went to Dallas, we knew that's where she lived. So we were like, if you in any way want to be there, we would love to, if you want to just watch it, if you want to come on stage.

Speaker 1 And so she came back stage. She walked on stage as our surprise guest at the end of that show in Dallas and the audience went insane.
And then she, you can listen to episode 95.

Speaker 1 You can listen to all of it, how it went. Episode 95 is a live show called Jesus with a G.

Speaker 1 And Jennifer Moore gives people a pep talk at the end. That's one of the most beautiful things that I, I'm so grateful of all the things I'm grateful for because of this podcast, because of us

Speaker 1 doing this and the way it's gone, good or bad. The fact that that moment happened, I think is like,

Speaker 1 Those are the things to me, then it was like, oh, we just need to start doing stuff like this. And this will be right.
This will be the legacy. Like, we did her right, and that felt so good.

Speaker 1 I remember the whole show, I was so nervous the entire time didn't buy right.

Speaker 1 And she's a lawyer too, which is just like, you just are always nervous around lawyers because you're going to say the wrong fucking thing. That's right.

Speaker 1 And also, like, yeah, she had the right to come on and say whatever. If she wanted to come on and say, hey, you guys are really insensitive and I think you should do a different thing.

Speaker 1 We would have loved to have received that as well. Definitely.

Speaker 1 We just kind of wanted the fact that she even wanted to be there, we really loved, but then how she was was just very much what I have seen a lot of times, at least of the survivors on I survived, the people who are like truly stronger than they were before.

Speaker 1 And it's just like, she is such an inspirational person and it, she got to kind of represent herself fully and freely. It was great.
Yeah. Yeah.
All right. That was powerful.

Speaker 1 So should we wrap this up? Yeah, let's wrap it up. When I saw, I remember this title, I love George's cat Mimi a lot.

Speaker 1 She's really, she's an iconoclast, and she's a rebel, and she has the tiniest cat mouth that's ever existed in the cat species. Angry heart, tiny mouth.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 She's going to live forever out of spite to cookie and mo, like just to spite them. Yeah, she's mad.
But so we named this podcast, What About Mimi? Yeah.

Speaker 1 But if we were naming it today, which we always name it after something that happened in the episode, here's a couple options. Yeah.
Let's see. I apologize for calling the British,

Speaker 1 the British crime series Rosemary and Time, which is from probably 1998, I would guess.

Speaker 1 I called that a grandma crime show.

Speaker 1 And so in Corrections Corner, I said I loved seeing people take the time to drink tea and eat cookies and British procedurals. So the suggestion is drink tea and eat cookies.
Yeah, that's a solid one.

Speaker 1 And then

Speaker 1 our whole gift conversation and not doing it, that would be called friendship rules. And I think friendship rules are an important part of adult friendships.
So let's do it. Very true.

Speaker 1 How about we respect some boundaries? Yeah. Come on.

Speaker 1 Get involved. Thanks for listening, you guys.
To rewind, we appreciate it. We hope you like it.
We hope you keep listening. We'll keep making them.
If so,

Speaker 1 let us know in the comments. There's also, besides this old episode, there's like 400 others, as Georgia was saying.
So, you know, just enjoy the back catalog as much as you'd like to and stay sexy.

Speaker 1 And don't get murdered.

Speaker 1 Come on.

Speaker 1 Elvis, do you want a cookie?

Speaker 1 So whether you're buying tickets to an improv show or a whodunit board game, PayPal PayPal helps you make the most of your money this holiday. Expires December 8th.

Speaker 1 See PayPal.com/slash promo terms subject to approval. Learn more at paypal.com/slash payin4, PayPal Inc., NMLS 910-457.
Goodbye. Goodbye.
No one brings out your inner monster like a bad neighbor.

Speaker 1 Claire Danes and Matthew Reese find that out for themselves in The Beast in Me, a new eight-episode drama from the team that brought you homeland. Danes plays Aggie Wiggs, a grieving writer.

Speaker 1 Reese plays Niall Jarvis, her new neighbor and possible possible murderer. But who's the monster and who's the bad neighbor? That's another story.

Speaker 1 It's a game of cat and mouse that sets them on a collision course with fatal consequences. The Beast and Me, now playing only on Netflix.
You will not want to miss this. Goodbye.
Goodbye.

Speaker 1 We're careful about what we eat, drink, and clean with. We should take as much care with what we put on our faces.
Crunchy makes high-performance, non-toxic skincare and makeup.

Speaker 1 So Crunchy just sent me some products and I am losing my mind.

Speaker 1 I put some of their beautifully flawless foundation on one of my hands, and so now one of my hands looks 10 years younger than my other hand.

Speaker 1 So, visit crunchy.com to shop Clean Beauty that performs and take 20% off your order with code MFM. That's code MFM at C-R-U-N-C-H-I.com, the real Clean Beauty.
Goodbye.

Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 33: What About Mimi?

Press play and read along

Transcript

More episodes from My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark

MFM Presents… Brief Recess

509 - Let Me Corrupt You

Rewind with Karen & Georgia - 73: Chill Satanist

MFM Minisode 464

508 - Live at Paramount Theatre (Oakland Night 2)