Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show

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Goodbye.

Speaker 2 Hello.

Speaker 2 And welcome. To Rewind with Karen and Georgia.

Speaker 1 You see, every Wednesday we release one of our old shows, but there's a twist.

Speaker 1 We add all new commentary, updates, insights, everything, the lives we've led, the people people we are, the people we've become, the whole story. We give it to you.

Speaker 2 Today we're recapping episode 30, which for the first time in 29 episodes isn't named after the number pun. Thank you, Jesus.
Phew.

Speaker 1 Thank God.

Speaker 2 Called one of the greats. It's called the Fuckword Murder Mystery Show.

Speaker 2 Find out why by listening to this.

Speaker 1 Stay tuned and you can find out why. We named it that.
And join us today as we take you back to August 18th, 2016. God, the summer of 2016.

Speaker 1 And now we can all be day one listeners together.

Speaker 2 So let's listen to the intro of episode 30.

Speaker 2 Are you ready?

Speaker 2 Yeah. I'm ready.
And let's have, let's be really low energy this time.

Speaker 1 Let's be as quiet as we can.

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 2 I screwed it up already.

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 1 You want to be quiet? Yes.

Speaker 2 Yes. That's all I've ever wanted.
Oh, God.

Speaker 1 Hi, welcome to my favorite murder. That's Georgia Hardstar.

Speaker 2 That's Karen Kilgareth.

Speaker 2 The quietest, we're the quietest girls. We're so quiet on podcasts.

Speaker 2 Thanks for

Speaker 2 being here. It's like spending an hour with us.
Thanks, thanks. Thinking about things with us.

Speaker 1 Guys, there's so much going on in our world.

Speaker 2 Not the least of which is how georgia doesn't like stranger things what

Speaker 2 oh there's someone at the door they're here to hang you up from the highest limb of a tree i didn't i don't not like it i have issues with it okay let's hear well it reminds me remember the old stephen king movies that would be made of stephen king books that would be on that were made for tv like

Speaker 2 dinner yes and how ridiculous they were and if you guys say

Speaker 2 what about true or pet cemetery go back and watch it again it's the corniest movie.

Speaker 1 But that was a feature film. Right.

Speaker 1 And there was some scary shit in it. Yes.

Speaker 2 I love that movie, but if you go back, you're like, oh, this is so corny. It doesn't hold up.
No.

Speaker 2 And it reminds me kind of of that, of Stephen King, like made for TV movies. And maybe it's kind of supposed to.

Speaker 2 But I also just, it reminded me of like someone who doesn't read sci-fi made a show about sci-fi. Yes.

Speaker 2 And like, I feel like if it's the kind of movie where if someone who had read the book were watching it, which I know there's not a book, but if you were, you'd be like, why the fuck did they leave this thing out?

Speaker 2 This was the most important part. Like, I feel like I would have been screaming that if I had read the book.
Well, you know, I've found,

Speaker 1 I think because I like seeing, I'm at that stage where that kind of nostalgia works on me because it's from when I was 10. Yeah.

Speaker 2 I love the look and feel, but that other stuff took me out of it.

Speaker 1 Well, and it's really hard to connect. is, this is kind of like the Stephen King problem and like lost.

Speaker 1 A lot of those things, when you get your big good idea that's going to freak people out and hook people in, and then you try to connect that with kind of believable science or something grounded,

Speaker 1 it's very difficult to do. So it's like

Speaker 1 the upside down, right? Is what it was called.

Speaker 1 But there was not the fact that you just kind of entered it through this weird, I mean, spoilers.

Speaker 2 And you could go get your, like, it just, yeah, there was a lot of wait, what, in it for me, like, and if you can walk into it, then why does she have to go into the thing to get into it, right?

Speaker 2 And, like, well, what is it? What is it made out of? Why did this happen? Why did this person exist? Yeah.

Speaker 2 Why did they, how did she get out of the, yeah, yeah, it's this is another episode of Georgia can't suspend her disbelief, uh, you know, and it's a valid uh angle. I do, however, like the night of

Speaker 2 I've gone through, I'm three episodes in.

Speaker 1 Okay. Well, when you get to the episode that aired last night.

Speaker 2 Oh my God.

Speaker 1 First of all, I keep falling asleep in front of the TV after watching Night Of and then dreaming about Riz Ahmed all night, which makes me crazy.

Speaker 2 They were showing photos of him as a kid, like as part of this show, but there were real photos of him as a kid. And I was like, I want that DNA inside of me.
Like, I want that baby.

Speaker 2 That sounded good.

Speaker 1 That's the biggest kind of crush you can have when you want their DNA.

Speaker 2 Because I want your DNA inside me. That's like a serial killer Valentine.

Speaker 2 That's just disgusting. That's a serial killer Valentine.

Speaker 1 No, that's how I feel about him.

Speaker 1 I steal that idea from you. I don't want to sleep with him.

Speaker 2 I have a husband that I love who doesn't want kids, so I'll just have one from him with big eyes and like beautiful.

Speaker 1 And after he and I marry and have many of our own, and

Speaker 2 can we get into a thing here? I guess we could.

Speaker 2 It'd be a fun thing. It would be good for the podcast.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 It's a very long,

Speaker 2 long

Speaker 2 show.

Speaker 2 Episodic. Okay, two things.
It's like a play. It is like a play.
I would watch a whole show of just John Tutoro and about his eczema. Didn't know there were eczema support groups.
That's fascinating.

Speaker 2 Those poor, those poor people. They can't date.

Speaker 2 I didn't know eczema

Speaker 2 was that awful. Yeah.
That's amazing. And then last night, yesterday when I watched it, Janet Colgate is now a character from Dirty Rotten Scoundrels.

Speaker 1 What?

Speaker 2 You know, the female lawyer? Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes. I got so happy when I was.
I named her name. Janet Colgate.
I said when she came on screen, I said it in like in the accent that was said.

Speaker 2 And I think Vince was like, Who did I? What did I marry?

Speaker 1 Wait, what's that actress's name?

Speaker 2 You think I can remember her character from a cheesy movie from the 80s, but I can't remember her real name. Her name is.

Speaker 1 You get this.

Speaker 2 You always get this.

Speaker 1 I know, but it's hot.

Speaker 2 Elizabeth.

Speaker 1 nope it's

Speaker 2 nancy

Speaker 1 stacy nancy stacy nancy it's my favorite actress stacy nancy from such plays as nancy saint fire

Speaker 2 nancy saint stacy that's the best stage name of all time taking it stealing my favorite murder with karen gilgaro and nancy saint stacy

Speaker 2 oh my god that's good so sweaty

Speaker 1 are you looking it up stephen what is it stephen is is the the letter P in her first or last name?

Speaker 2 Penelope. Not at all.
God damn it. Then just say her name.

Speaker 1 It's Glenn Headley. Glenn Headley.

Speaker 2 You said that as if it was on the tip of your tongue.

Speaker 1 It was nowhere near my mind.

Speaker 2 Glenn Headley?

Speaker 1 Glenn Headley. She's such a great actress.

Speaker 2 She is, but oh, her name. Stephen Ray Morris.
Thank you for that.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Anytime.

Speaker 1 That's like one of those white waspy names I would have never gotten.

Speaker 1 In my world, girls can't be named Glenn.

Speaker 2 I've definitely never heard that before. Yeah.

Speaker 1 That's a family name, I'm sure.

Speaker 2 I'm sure it is. That's on a crest somewhere.

Speaker 1 But, um, so two thumbs up for the night of.

Speaker 2 Yeah, watch it.

Speaker 3 Um,

Speaker 1 we're not talking about this, we're not talking about Stranger Things anymore. Yeah, it's gone off.

Speaker 2 I

Speaker 2 did you like the ending that they left it open, obviously, for a second season?

Speaker 1 I'm gonna admit, I fell asleep at some point in the later episodes, and I can't remember how

Speaker 2 they ended it in a way that was, there's just like no satisfying ending.

Speaker 1 Can I tell you? Because do you think they're going to be a season two?

Speaker 2 Well, Nancy and Steve are still together. What? Yeah.

Speaker 1 But she doesn't love him.

Speaker 2 Does she?

Speaker 1 She doesn't.

Speaker 2 Does she love fake Ben Schwartz?

Speaker 2 That's all I could see when I saw him. Did you see him?

Speaker 1 That's exactly what he looks like.

Speaker 2 He looks so much. He's like wasp Ben Schwartz.

Speaker 1 Yeah, he looks like if Ben Schwartz got put through a rock and roll machine.

Speaker 2 Everyone look at Ben Schwartz, I promise.

Speaker 2 Nothing wrong with him, but I just couldn't see that character.

Speaker 1 But sorry,

Speaker 1 she goes back to him?

Speaker 2 I feel like I just, I should have spoiled alerted that.

Speaker 1 Yeah, that's a big spoiler alert. Excuse me.

Speaker 2 I feel like I just burped really loudly and like without warning anyone or saying, excuse me, before or after.

Speaker 2 Excuse me.

Speaker 1 Excuse me.

Speaker 2 Excuse me.

Speaker 1 Can I say, can I read you my favorite tweet that we've gotten on the My Favorite Murder Twitter account?

Speaker 2 Always. This is Tweet Corner with Karen.
Tweet Corner, welcome.

Speaker 1 We're Mir Mir Mir.

Speaker 2 Why did you just theme song. Okay.

Speaker 1 Mimi, the unsung cat of the Hardstark household, she sings the theme song to Tweet Corner. Meow, meow, meow, meow.

Speaker 2 Mimi's got to have her spot in the.

Speaker 1 Yeah, this is it. She's come to shine.
Ready, Mimi? Meow, meow, meow, meow.

Speaker 1 She's totally asleep.

Speaker 1 Someone on Twitter named Trash Panda IRL.

Speaker 2 I love that.

Speaker 1 That's not a real person.

Speaker 1 Read what her name is. Oh, Tween Tween Sensation.
Tween Sensation is her handle. Okay.
Trash Panda IRL is her, I don't know, right name. I don't know.
Trash Panda.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 on her Twitter account, sorry, but I just noticed this, her header picture is a picture of Barb, and it says, in memory of Barb, I'll see you on the other side.

Speaker 2 That's incredible.

Speaker 1 Illustration of Barb from Stranger Things. Hell yeah, Trash Panda.
The best. Way to bring it all around.
So she tweeted at us and said, my dad keeps calling your show the fuckword murder mystery show

Speaker 1 because he can't remember the name. And I cannot stop laughing at that.

Speaker 2 Say it again.

Speaker 1 My dad keeps calling your show the fuckword

Speaker 1 murder mystery show because he can't remember the name.

Speaker 1 That is so, first of all.

Speaker 2 I can't.

Speaker 1 If my dad heard. a podcast where girls were saying the F word, he would pull the stereo out of the car and throw it on the highway.

Speaker 1 I swear, if my dad ever hears this, he's going to call me with such a stern tone. And so I love the fact that Trash Panda IRL's dad is even listening to it.

Speaker 2 I love him. I love him.
He sounds like my dad.

Speaker 1 And I think we might need to change the name of this podcast to the Fuckword Murder Mystery Show.

Speaker 2 I try not to do this, but someone who makes the memes needs to get our logo and change it into...

Speaker 2 Say it one more time because it makes me so happy. The Fuckword Murder mystery show.

Speaker 1 It's just beautiful.

Speaker 2 Can I read you something that's probably going to make you want to cry? Yes. Liz C.
on the Facebook page says, I'm 19 years old and fighting cancer at the moment. Oh, no.
Ready to cry? Yep.

Speaker 2 My dad and I listened to the podcast on the way to the hospital and back. Oh, fuck.
It's a great way to keep my mind off things, except now I'm scared to get murders. L-M-A-O.

Speaker 2 I can't wait for the new shirts to come out. I'm definitely going to be wearing it to the hospital.
Love all you murderinos.

Speaker 2 And then there's 200 comments, including mine, that says your next shirt is on the fucking house.

Speaker 1 What's her name, Liz?

Speaker 2 Liz. Yeah, Liz.

Speaker 1 Hey, Liz, you fight the good fight.

Speaker 2 You get in there.

Speaker 1 You do your fucking chemo or however you're taking care of this business and get it taken care of and get it out of you. Yeah.

Speaker 1 And many years of this stupid bullshit to come.

Speaker 2 Wait, the podcast or cancer?

Speaker 1 No, no, none of that, only the podcast. And then general fun things in life.

Speaker 2 Yeah, murder, cancer. You're going to be the smartest person you know because you've dealt with this thing.

Speaker 1 And you're going to have a great perspective on life. Totally.
I actually know many cancer survivors.

Speaker 1 And the cool part about it is once you get through that, all that bullshit of like, that girl took my brush and now I'm going to try to ruin it. And you don't do that shit anymore because you're like,

Speaker 1 you're like, oh, I understand what loss is. And I understand the gift of life that we have right now.

Speaker 2 And my family, who was there for me when I like that we that we were able to get through this together, the fact that her dad listens to that on the weird that listens to this bullshit.

Speaker 1 You guys.

Speaker 2 Sorry, we curse.

Speaker 1 Stay strong. We love you.
We're thinking of you.

Speaker 2 Oh, we're back.

Speaker 1 Thank you, Tween Sensation and... Your dad for that amazing title suggestion.
That's amazing.

Speaker 2 And then, of course, you better believe that some awesome Murderino created our logo with this brand new title.

Speaker 2 We'll put it up on the Instagram and on all the socials. It was Jason Klein.

Speaker 1 Jason Klein was like, the wife's out of the house. The kids are asleep.
You better believe I'm making you a logo.

Speaker 2 It was the best. It's so good.
It looks exactly like it.

Speaker 1 Apparently, we really loved Stranger Things. I don't remember having that.

Speaker 2 sort of passion.

Speaker 1 I don't either.

Speaker 2 The first season, I think, was fucking excellent, and that's why.

Speaker 1 Maybe it was the newness of the style. and then it truly has been on for seasons and seasons.

Speaker 2 Yeah, mystery, 80s mystery with like great clothes, music, Lona Ryder. Yes, the scenery is just like spot on.

Speaker 2 There's like a missing child aspect to it, which is always exciting.

Speaker 1 Somebody like that, look, a young girl with a shaved head who looks like she's in a daze with a bloody nose.

Speaker 1 Boom, I'm in.

Speaker 2 Yeah, what is this? I'm hooked. What happened to her? Yeah.

Speaker 1 All right. Well, it's time to get into

Speaker 2 one of, oh, God. I know.

Speaker 1 This is kind of an epic true crime story because it is connected to another true crime story, which is like, those are very rare and horrifying. And this one is one of the worst.

Speaker 1 So let's listen to Georgia tell the story of the Yosemite Park killer, Carrie Stainer.

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Speaker 2 Goodbye.

Speaker 1 I think you're first this week.

Speaker 2 Am I first? Yeah.

Speaker 2 All right. Settle in, Karen.
Okay.

Speaker 2 Get ready to hear about something we've talked about. We've touched on before.
Okay.

Speaker 2 But we never

Speaker 2 delved into. Okay.
The Yosemite murders.

Speaker 2 Carrie Stainer.

Speaker 2 As we know, and we've talked talked about Carrie Stainer, here's just like the beginning of the fucked up-ness. Carrie Stainer was the big brother

Speaker 2 of Stephen Stainer, who if you'll remember in 1972 was kidnapped and held captive by a child molester named Kenneth Parnell.

Speaker 2 Carrie was the older brother, and he was

Speaker 2 11 years old. When it happened.
Yeah, when it happened. And Stephen, the brother, was held captive more than seven years before escaping.
That itself is a fucked up story that you guys should look up.

Speaker 1 So awful. And this was one of our earliest episodes.
We were trying to remember the name of that, the made-for-TV movie, which is called I Know My Name is Steven. Yes.

Speaker 1 And we talked about it for way too long. And we're still getting people that are tweeting at us and sending us emails saying it was called I Know My Name is Steven.

Speaker 1 It's like that happened six months ago.

Speaker 2 Well, when we talked about that, that was the first time I found out that these two are brothers because I knew about Carrie's murders and I knew about Stephen's kidnapping, but I didn't know they were connected.

Speaker 2 And that just makes it

Speaker 2 just, it makes it boggles the mind, you know, in a way that's like more than just when you think of a serial killer and you're like, How does your brain do that?

Speaker 2 And we have this added piece of fucking childhood trauma in there.

Speaker 1 Also, it makes me think this poor family

Speaker 2 is left standing.

Speaker 1 It's just like, how much can some people take?

Speaker 2 Because it's terrible.

Speaker 1 It's so much.

Speaker 2 Well, so the year after Stephen came back,

Speaker 2 I'm going to call him Carrie. Carrie's uncle was murdered, and Carrie was living with the uncle at the time, but no one considered him a suspect.

Speaker 2 And Carrie would later claim that his uncle molested him. Oh, no.
Cut to 1997.

Speaker 2 Carrie was hired as a handyman at the Cedar Lodge Motel in El Porto, just outside of the highway, the 140 Ark Rock entrance to Yosemite National Park. So just outside Yosemite,

Speaker 2 Cedar Lodge. The weekend before February 1999,

Speaker 2 he was having these murderous fantasies that had become so intense that he knew he was going to murder someone.

Speaker 2 He prepared a murder rape kit containing a rope, a roll of duct tape, and a serrated kitchen knife, and later a gun and a camera. And as far as we know,

Speaker 2 besides his uncle, which may or may not have happened, this is his first, these are his first murders. Okay.
So on Valentine's Day, 1999,

Speaker 2 Carol's son, who was 42, her daughter Julie, who was 15, and Sylvina Peloso, who was 16, were his first victims.

Speaker 2 Carol was initially leery of Carrie when he knocked on their cabin door saying he had to fix a fan in the bathroom.

Speaker 2 She talked to him through the window and didn't want to let him in and only did so after he said he'd go get the manager to like confirm it. And she was like, No, no, no, no, no, that's okay.

Speaker 1 You know, the way people do, which is when they give you the double confirmation of like, oh, don't worry, I'll go do the thing you want me to do. Right.

Speaker 2 Well, if you say that, then.

Speaker 1 Well, if you say you're going to do the thing I want you to do, then you must be legit.

Speaker 2 Right. Then, okay, oh, yeah, all right.
I'll do it.

Speaker 2 So, but once inside, he pulls out a 22 caliber pistol. He tells them he's desperate, quote, and orders them to lie face down on the bed.

Speaker 2 He bounds their hands with duct tape, gags them, and then he took the two girls into the bathroom.

Speaker 2 He strangles Carol with a three-foot piece of rope, later saying in his taped confession, I didn't realize how hard it is to strangle a person. It's not easy.

Speaker 2 But I had very little feeling it was like performing a task.

Speaker 1 Yeah, keep that in mind. If it's really hard to strangle somebody, it's very hard.
So don't, maybe don't do it.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it's harder than one thinks. So after putting her in the trunk of her rented Pontiac, he

Speaker 2 goes back to the girls, cuts their clothes off, and then he strangles Sylviana in the bathroom. And then he sexually assaults Julie in the family motel, in the motel room, and then wraps her up

Speaker 2 and ties her, he ties her to the bed.

Speaker 2 He says he felt like he was in control for the first time in his life. And he cleaned up the crime scene so well that it appeared that the women had checked out and left when the people came to check.

Speaker 2 Oh, no.

Speaker 2 When the staff came later to check to see if they were there.

Speaker 2 They had detected no foul play.

Speaker 2 Let's see.

Speaker 2 He even wiped his hair off the bed sheets. And then when the FBI agent asked on tape why he did that, he replied, I watched the Discovery Channel.
Oh, no. Hi, that's all of us.
Yep.

Speaker 2 Oh, yeah.

Speaker 1 Everyone's getting real smart about forensics together.

Speaker 2 Good and bad. Yeah, for sure.

Speaker 2 So at 4 a.m., he takes Julie out of the motel and drives her away in the rental car with her mother and friend in the trunk. So she's still alive? Yes.
Okay.

Speaker 2 And I don't know, I don't think she knows that those two are dead and in the trunk because he kind of, there was two motel rooms that he was going between and I don't think she ever saw the bodies.

Speaker 1 She just thought she was separated.

Speaker 2 Yeah. So she says, he says, I didn't know where I was going or what I was doing.
I just kept driving and driving. And he said about Julie, she was a very likable girl.
He said, crying on tape.

Speaker 2 She was very calm. So dawn is approaching.
He turns off at Lake Don Pedro and carries Julie up a dirt path to a small clearing overlooking the water. I told her I wished I could keep her, he said.

Speaker 2 Then he sexually assaulted her again. Finally, he brushed her hair and fanned it out on the ground ground beneath her head.
I told her I loved her, he said, and then he slit her throat. Oh, no.

Speaker 2 I didn't want her to suffer the way the other two did.

Speaker 1 A too late assistant.

Speaker 2 I know. Like, I think because he he choked them manually, he was thinking that it was taking longer, so he slit her throat.

Speaker 2 He was comparatively. Yeah, like thinking he was being compassionate.

Speaker 2 So he hides her body and he drives the car with the bodies in the trunk as far as he could into the forest.

Speaker 2 Then he takes a cab back to Yosemite, pays with the fare with $150 he stole from Carol's purse.

Speaker 2 Two days later, he returns to the car with a can of gasoline and scratches, we have Sarah on the hood with a pocket knife. And then he lights the car on fire.

Speaker 2 Then he droves two hours west and dumped Carol's bill fold on a bodesto street corner to fool the police. This is near where you're from, kind of.

Speaker 1 Kind of. It's the Central Valley.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 1 We're more on the coast. Okay.

Speaker 2 So more than a month later, the remains of Carol Sund and Pelosa were found in the burned-out rental car, abandoned, along a logging road.

Speaker 2 And six days later, the FBI received an anonymous letter with a crudely drawn map and a message, we had fun with this one. And following the map, the searchers found Julie.

Speaker 2 The detectives began interviewing employees of the Cedar Lodge Motel, where the first three victims had been staying just before their deaths.

Speaker 2 One of the employees was Carrie, but he was not considered a suspect at that point. He has no criminal history and remained calm during the police interview.
Fucking psychopath, right?

Speaker 2 Oh my God. FBI agents and local police rounded up a bunch of meth heads and sex offenders and told the tourists and residents that they were confident they had the killers in custody.

Speaker 2 That

Speaker 2 okay, so another woman disappears on July 22nd. This is Joey Ruth Armstrong, J-O-I-E,

Speaker 2 who is 26. She's a pretty redhead who worked for the Yosemite Institute teaching children about nature.
Oh,

Speaker 2 sweet angel.

Speaker 2 She worked at the, let's see,

Speaker 2 was lone in the isolated cabin where she lived when Carrie came upon her. Man, we can't have anything.
We can't even live alone.

Speaker 1 Well, but living in a cabin alone in the woods.

Speaker 2 Yeah, but guys get to do it.

Speaker 2 What? Guys get to live alone in a cabin in the woods without getting murdered for the most part. Yeah, and they're guys.
That's what I'm saying. It's not fair.

Speaker 1 No, i know i'm i'm more in i'm still in the mode of if you're going to live in a cabin in the woods then pull your gun out anytime someone approaches your home yeah

Speaker 2 like i don't know or or big dogs big angry scary dogs pravmaga i don't know yeah no i get it don't be all chill yeah i wouldn't want to live i like living in a big city where There's just people everywhere on top of you all the time.

Speaker 2 So according to the interview, Carrie confronted Armstrong at gunpoint on the front porch of her cabin.

Speaker 1 Oh, he had a gun.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 I wouldn't help.

Speaker 2 He told her it was a robbery and forced her into the cabin and covered her mouth and bound her hands behind her back with duct tape. Then he put her in his sports utility vehicle.
SUV.

Speaker 2 I could have just said that. That's an SUV.
Thank you.

Speaker 2 Someone needed an extra word count in their newspaper piece, right?

Speaker 1 Did you also draw a picture?

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Page five is just one big one.

Speaker 2 Well, I copied a couple of these sentences and that was one of them. And now I'm like, that guy just needed a higher word count.
Oh, yeah. For sure.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 He said, I lost control of myself and I lost control of her.

Speaker 2 Let's see. He said, when this started out, I had no intention of cutting her head off, which he later did.
Spoiler alert. Man.
He says he has no intention of cutting her head off.

Speaker 2 I had no intentions of killing her even the first time I saw her. Yeah, right.
Then I started thinking about it. It was in the house.

Speaker 2 There was nobody in the house with her. She kept walking out by herself and she watered the plants and it was obvious she was taking off and getting ready to go.
That's when I started talking to her.

Speaker 2 So the assistant U.S. attorney,

Speaker 2 then,

Speaker 2 okay.

Speaker 2 In court papers, it was said, after he had driven a short distance, she dove headfirst out of the wind through the window out of the moving truck and still bound with duct tape, ran through the woods toward the nearby community of Faurista to get help.

Speaker 2 Hell yeah. Girl, good for you.
Fight your fucking last fight. Yeah.
You know? I don't know if that was the right saying.

Speaker 2 While Carrie ultimately subdued Armstrong, she fought so crazy and with such passion that Stainer wasn't able to do his normal cleanup job, like obsessive cleanup job.

Speaker 2 He disposed of her beheaded body near in a nearby stream, and the head turned up 27 feet away. In a hurry, he fleed.

Speaker 2 And a close sort of...

Speaker 1 He fled. He fleed.

Speaker 2 No, he fleed, Karen. Don't fucking correct me when I say that.
Let her count. Let her count.
He fleed. Sorry to correct you.
No, you're right. He fled.

Speaker 2 A close, a source, close to the investigation. Oh, my God.
Thank you for pointing that out. No, I did not catch that.

Speaker 2 Says it was a fight from start to finish. She tried to get away, and she almost did get away.

Speaker 2 And though several minutes of struggle left behind a lot of evidence, her determined fight for life denied him the chance to cover up the crime scene and it led to his capture and undoubtedly saved other lives.

Speaker 1 Yes, honey. She basically ended it by fighting that hard

Speaker 2 fought so hard that he lost it.

Speaker 2 So, in his haste, he left behind footprints, and basically, his car was seen around the area. It was really distinctive.
The tire tracks

Speaker 2 were as well.

Speaker 2 And so, the vehicle was traced to him, and he was arrested. And during his interrogation, he confessed to all four murders.
He pled not guilty by reason of insanity, and

Speaker 2 a doctor testified that he had mild autism, obsessive-compulsive disorder, and paraphilia. At one point during the trial, the judge, Thomas C.

Speaker 2 Hastings, had to leave the courtroom so he could compose himself in private because the testimony was so fucked up. He returned several minutes later, red-faced and misty-eyed.
A judge.

Speaker 2 The circumstances of this case are horrendous and devastating, he said before announcing the sentence.

Speaker 2 Carrie was found sane and convicted of four counts of first-degree murder by a jury in 2001. He was sentenced to death and is still in San Quentin.

Speaker 2 He claimed after his arrest, so everyone's like,

Speaker 2 did you get these murderous tendencies because of the stuff with your brother? Yeah. And all this like horrible stuff that happened to as a kid.

Speaker 2 But he said after his arrest that he had fantasized about murder and women since he was seven years old, long before the abduction of his brother.

Speaker 2 So what are are the chances like those two traumatic, fucked-up things are going to happen in one family? So awful. Okay, and then I went on Facebook and found a hometown murder from a reader.

Speaker 2 So, I'm going to read it. Okay.
So, Taylor C. says, In June of 1999, I was 11 and my brother was eight.

Speaker 2 My family and I went on a road trip to Yosemite from LA and all caps stayed in the Cedar Lodge Motel.

Speaker 2 This is for everyone, this is right between the murder of the three women and the murder of the single woman, like months before, like months in between. Oh man.

Speaker 2 Around 9.30 at night, my brother and I were watching Batman and Robin and we get a knock at the door. My mom looks through the peephole, sees some dude and asks what he wants.
He says, pizza delivery.

Speaker 2 We had already eaten, so we knew no one had ordered a pizza. My mom tells him as much and he insists that we did.
My mom tells him that he must have been mistaken, but he keeps insisting.

Speaker 2 After a certain point, my mom walks away and assumes he did as well. Several minutes of knocking later, my mom calls the hotel management.
He must have heard her on the phone because

Speaker 2 when they showed up, he was gone. My mom filed a police report, but nothing really ever came of it.

Speaker 2 I think when they caught him,

Speaker 2 she was briefly interviewed, but because she didn't get a good look at him, she wasn't useful in the case.

Speaker 2 To think my brother and I could have died while watching Arnold laying down some truly excellent ice puns

Speaker 2 because they were watching, Where'd it go? Batman and Robin.

Speaker 1 Fucked up shit.

Speaker 1 Was it, did she say it was just her mom?

Speaker 1 It was her brother and her mom?

Speaker 2 Her and her brother and her mom.

Speaker 1 So, like, he spotted like moms with kids. Yeah.

Speaker 2 He must have targeted them. Man.
But why would you do it again in the same, I mean, I guess you didn't get caught the first time.

Speaker 1 Yeah, you didn't get caught.

Speaker 2 And you're cocky.

Speaker 1 And he has still has the fantasy. Like, he still has, it's the compulsion.

Speaker 2 And then there's sometimes that thing of like, maybe you wanted to get caught.

Speaker 1 Yes.

Speaker 1 Well, it surprised me when you said that he cried when he was talking about that first girl.

Speaker 2 Well, when the when during the trial, when a lot of the stuff was being discored, when he was listening to his own testimony, he would, he would plug up his ears and cry like he couldn't listen to it, even though when he was giving that information during the interrogation, he was like,

Speaker 2 like dead, you know, emotionally dead. Wow.

Speaker 2 So either that was just for the just for the show for the jury oh that's true or you know maybe he was on anti-psychotics or something at that point and understood or if he was like yeah he was like hadn't processed anything yeah he was confessing yeah

Speaker 2 Okay, we're back, Georgia.

Speaker 1 Are there any updates for this story?

Speaker 2 Yeah, there are some.

Speaker 2 You know,

Speaker 2 before today's episode, I was reading a bunch of articles about everything because I'm so curious personally about any other murders he may have committed that we don't know about.

Speaker 2 And there's just still no information about that whatsoever. So that's kind of, I mean, I just, I feel like it has to be there.
But so Kerry Stainer is now 63 years old.

Speaker 2 He's still incarcerated at San Quentin.

Speaker 2 And as I mentioned, they are looking into him for five other killings dating back to the 80s. And there's just, including his own uncle, and there's still nothing.

Speaker 2 And he's never been charged in those cases.

Speaker 2 And then the FBI later revealed that Carrie Stainer originally planned to murder his then-girlfriend that he was dating at the time of these murders and her two children.

Speaker 2 And he attempted three separate occasions, but was derailed when he saw another person on the grounds where they lived, leading him to find his first victims at the Cedar Lodge Motel instead.

Speaker 2 And actually, one of the little girls, one of the daughters of the then-girlfriend, has come forward and talked about him as like the perfect, you know, stepdad type.

Speaker 2 And they had no clue whatsoever, of course. Wow.
You know, and then her horrible survivor's guilt that she had and just

Speaker 2 how awfully it affected her life. It's really moving.
But

Speaker 2 yeah, in general, that's just like, just such a fuck story.

Speaker 1 It's just, it's so dark and so odd.

Speaker 1 The like, because I think someone in this story, he was arrested and then someone asked him if he got his murderous tendencies because of what happened to his brother.

Speaker 1 And he was like, No, I've been fantasizing about murder since I was seven years old.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 dark.

Speaker 2 Just terrible. I know.
I think there's a really good documentary out there about this, too, if you want to check it out. All right, well, let's get to your

Speaker 2 wild story.

Speaker 2 Wild, also heartbreaking. This is Karen's story about Clark Rockefeller.

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Speaker 2 Goodbye. Goodbye.

Speaker 1 All right, are you ready to transition?

Speaker 2 Always.

Speaker 1 Because mine,

Speaker 1 I was watching this documentary this weekend

Speaker 1 about this guy that I'm going to talk about, and it's very entertaining. Even though he is also a murderer,

Speaker 1 he is

Speaker 1 more a con man, which I actually kind of adore.

Speaker 2 You're like a mobster who won't kill women and children? Yes. And you're like, you know what?

Speaker 1 You know, when you can like pick and choose the bad, like, this is the kind that I like. Where for the most part, now, he is a

Speaker 1 borderline personality, I think, extreme narcissist. They have all kinds of,

Speaker 1 you know, the psychiatrist talked about what he was in court.

Speaker 1 But he basically what it was, he was a guy who grew up in Germany as a very awkward teen. In this documentary, they talk about

Speaker 1 how he, when all their friends would go to like the, to the lake every summer, he would always go, but he would be fully dressed up and he would never, they never saw him in a bathing suit.

Speaker 2 This is Hitler.

Speaker 1 That man's name was Mr. Adolph Marie Hitler.

Speaker 1 Noah,

Speaker 1 this was

Speaker 1 well, he was born Christian Karl

Speaker 2 Gerhard Schreiter.

Speaker 1 But he had many names in his long con career. He also went by the name Chris Chichester, Chris Crowe,

Speaker 1 Chip Smith, and finally Clark Rockefeller, heir to the Rockefeller.

Speaker 2 You know this guy? Clark Rockefeller. What's the documentary called?

Speaker 1 It's called My Friend Rockefeller.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I never got through it. So tell me everything.
It is

Speaker 1 here. It's worth getting to the part where Clark Rockefeller or Chris Chichester or Chip Smith or

Speaker 1 Chris Crowe is my favorite because he, when he was Chris Crow, he claimed to be a relative of Cameron Crowe.

Speaker 1 He does all these lies that are just small enough. They're big enough to impress you, but small enough to be believable.
Right. And it is masterful.

Speaker 1 And he's a really legitimately IQ style, intelligent person,

Speaker 1 but he also doesn't really have any morals. So most of the time, everything's fine because he's just trying to get money and like work for himself and get what he wants.
But fair enough.

Speaker 2 And doesn't he make like everyone happy around him too? Like everyone thinks he's so funny for a little while.

Speaker 1 I think the limit's two years that people are happy around this guy. Then he starts getting real irritating.
And that's when he gets kicked out of houses, fired from jobs, what have you.

Speaker 1 But so this is basically how it goes. He grows up as an awkward teen in Germany.
He has a group of friends. And in the documentary, the friends get interviewed.

Speaker 1 And what I loved is one of the friends goes, I love that he tricked all those rich Americans. And that part made me go, Oh, yeah, that's true.

Speaker 1 He really did get away with huge, huge lies for a really long time. Yeah, so here's basically how it went.

Speaker 1 He also claimed to be, these are all the things he claimed to be: an actor, a producer, a director, an art collector, a physicist, a ship's captain, a negotiator of international debt agreements, and an English aristocrat.

Speaker 2 She was.

Speaker 1 He did it all. So,

Speaker 1 when he was 17, he met met an American couple who had pulled off and asked him for directions on the side of the road. And he met them, got their names.

Speaker 1 And then when he wanted to go to America, when he was 17, he used their names on the like entrance documents to say that they had invited him there and that he was going to go live with them.

Speaker 1 This was a one-off meeting on like the side of the road. And those people are also in this documentary.
It's pretty awesome.

Speaker 1 So he comes to the United States and he goes to Meriden, Connecticut, and he finds the family of a backpacker he met once on a train in Germany.

Speaker 2 I can't even talk to the person sitting next to me on an airplane.

Speaker 1 I have a hard time talking to people I've known for 20 years.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Much less asking people if you can go stay at their parents' house.

Speaker 2 Oh my God. I asked Vince if I can like eat some of his chips because I feel bad about it.
I can't imagine me like, can I stay at your place we met once?

Speaker 1 I'm just weird and uncomfortable. No.

Speaker 1 Okay, so he explains to them that he is from a very wealthy German family and that he

Speaker 1 is in America, like he's a foreign exchange student. And can he stay with them? Because he's going to be going to the local high school.
Basically, he starts going to high school in Connecticut.

Speaker 1 And basically, his whole thing is he wants to be American. He wants to blend in.
He becomes obsessed with Gilligan's Island and he starts talking like Thurston Halbafell. Oh, that's cool.

Speaker 1 And when he appears in this documentary, that's who he's talking like. And it wasn't until I was reading this article where they mentioned this specifically where I started laughing.

Speaker 2 Because they don't talk about it in the documentary?

Speaker 1 He does talk about it, but they talk about it like it's an inside. He goes, the

Speaker 1 guy who makes the documentary, who was friends with him, brings it up, but they don't like

Speaker 1 he basically

Speaker 1 Clark Rockefeller kind of brushes it off.

Speaker 2 Like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, but he totally sounds like him, but he's talking like oh my god, that's perfect, and he's basically saying

Speaker 1 it's the funniest, but also, it's that thing where I don't like to usually I don't like to listen to killers, especially I never watch anything where the serial killer is talking.

Speaker 1 I don't give a fuck what that guy has to say. Okay, he's evil.
This guy's different, though, because he's a con man first

Speaker 1 and foremost, yeah. Even though, yes, he's an he's a bad person, killer, all of that, but he is a fascinating mind because he was smart enough to like, as a teen, con all these people.
So

Speaker 1 he goes to this high school.

Speaker 1 He decides that he wants to be an actor, so he heads west. But he makes it as far as Wisconsin and he decides he's going to go to the University of Wisconsin at Milwaukee.

Speaker 1 So once he's there,

Speaker 1 he decides he needs to, he's been in the United States long enough where he needs a green card, basically, and he's become a citizen. So he decides he's going to marry a local 22-year-old woman

Speaker 1 who he explains to her that he needs the green card because if he gets sent back to Germany,

Speaker 1 he will have to fight in the Cold War on the Russian front.

Speaker 1 Now, if you knew anything about anything,

Speaker 1 I mean, and I barely know anything about anything, but when I read that, I was like, hey, wait a second.

Speaker 2 Pretty sure the Cold War didn't have a front. That's right.

Speaker 1 Because the Cold War was all about tensions and basically threats.

Speaker 2 There's no such thing as there was no Russian front in the Cold War.

Speaker 1 I mean, there were places to go. There were bad things happening, definitely.

Speaker 1 If the idea was that he was going to get sent back to like East Berlin and have to spy on his neighbors, yes. It's horrible.
But there was no Russian front.

Speaker 2 Prisoner of war because of, or not a prisoner of war, of a

Speaker 2 accused of war crimes or something like that. Like a political prisoner.

Speaker 1 But there was no, the Russian front was from World War II. That was a bad, bad place to be.

Speaker 2 Sure.

Speaker 1 Anyway, she fell for it and married him. And the next day, he left for California.

Speaker 1 So I was like, was she,

Speaker 1 was she... in agreement and fine with it? But then later I read that she filed for a divorce in 1992, 11 years later.

Speaker 2 What? Maybe she was like, needed him, maybe she's like a lesbian and like needed to appease her family. Lover story? Yeah.
Oh, I didn't even think about that.

Speaker 1 I was, I immediately wrote the story of she was just heartbroken and like pining in Milwaukee

Speaker 1 for this

Speaker 1 fabulous European that bailed on her the day after because it said their wedding. So it sounded like it wasn't just the basics like City Hall signed some papers.

Speaker 2 Like they had a lot of water. Like they had a wedding.
Oh, no.

Speaker 2 Sad.

Speaker 1 A little crazy. All right.

Speaker 2 So he,

Speaker 1 or maybe she is like me and is just bad about paperwork and doesn't get shit done in time.

Speaker 2 So she's like, oh, that's right. I have to get divorced.
I'll do it when I meet someone else.

Speaker 1 I'll do it when I have good reason that she's on Tinder swiping, swiping, swiping.

Speaker 2 Come on.

Speaker 1 So he heads out to California. Now, this is, it's so fascinating.
He goes to San Marino. Now, I don't know if you've ever been to Huntington Gardens.
Oh, you're from down here. You know.

Speaker 1 San Marino is like, so Pasadena is a rich area that very few people I know live in because it's like old money rich, you know, you have to live out of the city. San Marino is richer than Pasadena.

Speaker 1 It's the, it's the city nestled up right next to Pasadena where all the mansions are. It's gorgeous.
It's crazy. So

Speaker 1 this is a guy who's in his early 20s, like college age. He's moving to LA to be an actor, and he moves to San Marino to get.
So it doesn't make sense. No.
San Marino, I looked it up.

Speaker 1 it was rated more expensive than beverly hills holy shit and malibu

Speaker 1 to live in so it just is nonsensical for like a young actor type to live there sure but that's that's what he was about he was like a total he was thirsty howell the third and he was trying to go become that person in like a very real way yeah so he got He rented the guest house that was

Speaker 1 in one of the least nice houses in all of of San Marino. There is actually a slightly shabby part, which is just basically not million-dollar homes.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 in one of those houses, a woman named Dee Dee Sohas

Speaker 1 had a guesthouse

Speaker 2 on her property.

Speaker 1 Didi reportedly was an alcoholic who was always dressed in a house coat, which sounds like. Hey, sister.

Speaker 2 High five. Yeah.

Speaker 1 And Dee Dee had a son named John, who was five foot five, super into Dungeons and Dragons, Coke bottle glasses, and was married to a woman named Linda, who was a six foot tall redhead.

Speaker 2 They sound like fucking our type of people. They are, they are our type of people.

Speaker 1 They lived in

Speaker 1 like the house adjacent. So it was almost like this little compound.

Speaker 2 And Clark Rockefeller, at the time, his name was,

Speaker 1 let's see, his name here was Christopher Chichester, which is the dumbest made-up name of all time.

Speaker 2 That sounds like when I said, what was it, Nancy St. Nancy?

Speaker 2 Nancy St. Stacy.

Speaker 2 That wasn't as bad as Chichester. That's not as bad as Chris Chichester.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 It's like you stuttered three times. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Throw more seas in there, you dork. So, okay.

Speaker 1 So he shows up in San Marino. He get, he's, he's, he's charming everybody.

Speaker 1 And what he tells them is that not only is he a computer expert, a film producer, and a stockbroker, he is also the nephew of Lord Mountbatten so what I kind of do like about this all is all the people that get tricked by this guy are people who are label horrors and status whores so anyone that's like impressed by impressed by someone talking like Thurston Hall III and saying I'm I'm related to Lord Lord Mountbatten yeah where the like in my family if you said that it'd be like well go do the dishes it'd be like really lord mountbatten yeah Can you go get some more beer out of the downstairs refrigerator?

Speaker 1 But it's the, it's a lot of people. And especially, that's why he was going to places like San Marino.

Speaker 1 You go to places where people work in those worlds, and those are the people that are most impressed by, you know, you're all rich. Well, I'm a blue blood.
Well, I'm a royal, I'm actually royalty.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Someone that can come in and beat them at their own game. What's more interesting than that? So

Speaker 1 the locals said he was a whiz at everything. He

Speaker 1 proved especially popular with the women who were very charmed by his royal bloodline and his courtly manners. One of the women said he knew everything about everything and he was just fabulous.

Speaker 1 So it's not just an act, he's really getting away with it. And he was very, very smart.

Speaker 2 Sounds like it.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 in 1985, tragedy strikes. This is two years after Chris moves into

Speaker 1 the Sohus'

Speaker 1 house. Didi's son, Jonathan, and his wife, Linda, go missing without a trace.

Speaker 1 Chris tells everybody that they told him that they were going to go to Europe.

Speaker 1 The family got a postcard from France, supposedly from the couple after the disappearance, but its authenticity has been questioned.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 so.

Speaker 1 Soon after they disappear, Dee Dee Sohus disinherited her son, who was beloved to her up until that point.

Speaker 1 The police think that she was convinced that he had abandoned her. Oh, no.
And after, when Didi died, they found that $180,000 of her estate had been looted. Her entire estate, sorry.

Speaker 1 Her entire estate was worth $180,000 and all of it had been taken.

Speaker 2 Oh, that's so sad.

Speaker 1 So.

Speaker 2 Dungeons and Dragons.

Speaker 1 Dungeons and Dragons.

Speaker 1 I just say that like it's, I mean something by it.

Speaker 2 itself dungeons and dragons, but we know what we mean.

Speaker 1 In the late 80s, police pull Christopher Chichester over in Greenwich, Connecticut.

Speaker 1 He's driving Jonathan Sohus' truck.

Speaker 2 Uh-oh.

Speaker 1 The police he leaves the area before police can interview him. I don't know what that means if he's like, oh, well, thanks, everybody.
Thanks for pulling me over. Great to see you.

Speaker 1 And just drives away. I'm not sure.
Or if they meant

Speaker 1 the neighborhood.

Speaker 2 Sounds like the neighborhood, right?

Speaker 1 It's just weird because if you've got him there and he's driving, so maybe they just had the information that it was that truck and they didn't put it together till later. Yeah.

Speaker 1 But I looked it up. Greenwich,

Speaker 1 in the year 2000, Greenwich was the third wealthiest town in Connecticut. So he's just going east coast.
Now he's going to do this on the east coast. Make money.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 So he rents a post office box in Greenwich under the name Christopher C. Crow.

Speaker 1 CCC.

Speaker 1 He loves the C. He does.
He literally walked into the Indian Harbor Yacht Club like he owned the place. Oh my God.
So this is a rich town that has a yacht club. And he rolled up on in,

Speaker 1 here's how he was described. He looked like he walked out of a magazine.

Speaker 1 He always had his Burberry winter coat, Burberry umbrella, very fine cotton button-down white shirts with CCC monogrammed on the pockets for Christopher Chichester Crow.

Speaker 1 Always pristine, always perfect.

Speaker 2 Sounds like what you wear whenever you go out. Yep.

Speaker 1 I do have my button-down K L K

Speaker 1 shirt on.

Speaker 2 I'm so hot.

Speaker 1 Someone else said, he's talking to you as if he's smarter, wealthier, more connected, more everything than you, no matter who you are. Fuck you.
So

Speaker 1 he's just playing the rich game and beating them at the rich game. Yeah.
Because I think Thurston Hall III was the richest man on the planet. So if that's who he is, he is right.

Speaker 1 So he sleeps with a woman. So that basically his inn in Greenwich was this yacht club.

Speaker 1 He starts sleeping with a woman who ends up getting him this really high-level job

Speaker 1 in town at a broker dealer firm. I don't know what that is.
I don't either. I cut my eyes for skipping over the part where it got into like finance, but basically a huge finance job.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 1 You have to take two tests to do this job, one called the Series 7 and one called

Speaker 1 Series 63. There's seven, it's seven hours of questions.

Speaker 2 Holy shit.

Speaker 1 And he passed it.

Speaker 2 What the shit?

Speaker 1 So he's not, he's a very, very, very intelligent person. So now you know the brain that's being applied to conning people.
Fair.

Speaker 1 A memorizer, an absorber of personalities and information, and the kind of person that will tell you the perfect lie.

Speaker 1 He's Lord Mountbatten's nephew. He's not anybody's son.

Speaker 1 There's nothing direct.

Speaker 1 So, all right. So, he's he stays at this job for two years.

Speaker 2 Oh, my God.

Speaker 1 But he's super, um, people don't, at first, it's interesting that they have this royalty working there. After two years, they're sick of hearing him talk.

Speaker 1 And he did the ultimate wrong move, which was the boss, the guy that hired him, who was the president of the company, wanted to access his own computer.

Speaker 1 And Chris wouldn't tell him how to do it because he thought, if I'm the only one that knows how to do it and you don't know,

Speaker 1 I will never get fired. Instead, the guy in charge was like, get the fuck out of here,

Speaker 1 and somebody else is going to teach me how to get into my computer.

Speaker 2 Weird.

Speaker 1 Well, from there, he gets a better job.

Speaker 2 Oh, my God.

Speaker 1 So he gets fired from that job and then he gets hired at a place called Nico.

Speaker 1 I don't know. It's another one of these like Wall Street jobs.

Speaker 2 Yeah, Karen, this is not our universe.

Speaker 1 I'm not interested in it. I don't like it.
Nope. I don't care.
But essentially, he does great there too for a couple of years. But a couple people were onto him.
This is all in the documentary.

Speaker 1 Because

Speaker 1 he'd ask a question like,

Speaker 1 have you ever sold one of these? And the guy that he asked the question to is in the documentary who's like, that'd be like asking a dentist, do you know what a bicuspid is?

Speaker 1 Like it's one of the basics. So, that guy was like, I was pretty sure something was going on.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 And then, of course, by the end, everyone's just, he's bragging and he's, you know, an asshole to everybody.

Speaker 1 So he gets fired from there.

Speaker 1 Then

Speaker 1 he goes to another company, a bigger company. So he gets a better job.
Each firing, he just is failing upwards.

Speaker 1 But this is the job where they finally

Speaker 1 do a background check. Oh, no, sorry.
Two years after he got dismissed from the first place, they finally look him up. They'd run his social security number.

Speaker 1 And the social security number that he gave was David Berkowitz's, the son of Sam.

Speaker 2 Shut the fuck up.

Speaker 2 That is the coolest part.

Speaker 1 It's amazing. So it's kind of like saying, if you check my shit, go fuck yourself.
But no one ever did until after he left.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Okay. So holy shit, that's cool.
It's crazy. So on this third job,

Speaker 1 someone at the third job finally looks into his background while he still works there and finds out that he is a person of interest in a missing persons case in California.

Speaker 2 How did that guy feel when he saw that?

Speaker 1 I mean, probably nervous, but stoked.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Excited.

Speaker 1 And then hungry because it was right before lunch.

Speaker 2 Who knows?

Speaker 1 So the Greenwich Police and the Connecticut State Police show up at this job, but that day Christopher Chichester, no, sorry, Christopher Crowe now.

Speaker 1 Christopher Crowe didn't show up for work that day because he was on to them, he knew,

Speaker 1 but he called in to say he needed time off because his parents had been kidnapped in either Pakistan or Japan.

Speaker 2 Oh, come on. But just say you don't feel well.

Speaker 1 Well, and also that's where your lies are getting a bit big. Yeah.
Like, pick one. Yeah.
It's Pakistan. Yeah.

Speaker 2 But you have a hangover. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Or you're, yeah, you, you broke one of your teeth and you're out for a couple days.

Speaker 2 How about your bycuspit?

Speaker 1 So he disappears from Greenwich, Connecticut. And he reappears in New York City, 1992.
And where does he go? Where did John List go when he had to start all over in a new town?

Speaker 2 The church. Church.

Speaker 1 Church. Church.
You show, stay with me, church.

Speaker 1 You show up at church

Speaker 1 with your song and dance. Yeah.
And you have a built-in community of people who are going to trust you.

Speaker 2 Totally.

Speaker 1 Keep your eyes peeled, churchies.

Speaker 1 So he rolls up. This is now when he is becoming.

Speaker 1 I say that as if that's something that's important.

Speaker 1 This is now when he's become Clark Rockefeller. So he's in New York City and he's introducing himself as a Rockefeller.

Speaker 2 That seems like something you'd want to introduce yourself anywhere but in New York City.

Speaker 1 Well, but here's the thing: he knows the difference. So he specifies specifies to these people at this church that he is from the Percy Rockefeller side, not John D.

Speaker 1 John D is the one that he's crazy rich. Percy still is super rich, but not John Dee level.
So he, he always goes right under. Yeah.
You know, he goes in with the claim that's right.

Speaker 2 It's believable enough. Yeah.

Speaker 1 We're still talking millions of dollars, crazy old American blue blood money.

Speaker 2 It still would impress people like my mom. Oh, he's a Rockefeller, you know.

Speaker 1 My grandmother used to say, like, she'd go pick that penny up off the floor.

Speaker 2 We're not the Rockefellers. Totally.

Speaker 1 That was like a total grandma saying. Yeah.

Speaker 1 She also said a lot of racist stuff that I won't repeat.

Speaker 2 So don't listen to her.

Speaker 1 She was a good person at heart. It was just the times.
Make America great again.

Speaker 2 All right.

Speaker 1 He claimed to have gone to Yale, like when he was 14.

Speaker 1 He had a Yale scarf with the blue stripes. He said he had one of the J-boats from his grandparents, which was a classic 30s sailing yacht.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I do too. Yeah, don't we all?

Speaker 1 So basically what he learned is that if you joined private clubs in a big city

Speaker 1 and they're all like clubs no one's ever even heard of, the Lotus and stuff like that, where I'm like, oh, yeah, I'm clearly as working class as you can get.

Speaker 3 We'll never be.

Speaker 3 Nowhere close.

Speaker 2 We'll never be asked to.

Speaker 1 No, they're not going to ask us. No.
I don't think so. But this is where the Vanderbilts and the Whitneys and the Roosevelts and the Rockefellers, they've all been socializing since the 1800s.

Speaker 1 So he learns the kind of language of private clubs and those people.

Speaker 1 And then all of his lies become believable because he's speaking their language and saying the stupid shit that they all say to each other over cucumber sandwiches.

Speaker 2 I wonder.

Speaker 1 It's all whispering about cash.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Right.
Transactions. Lots of trends.

Speaker 2 Yeah. What transactions? Bonds.
Bonds. Bore bonds.
Bore bonds.

Speaker 2 Polio.

Speaker 2 Polo? Polio. Polo.

Speaker 2 They meant polio.

Speaker 2 Polio.

Speaker 1 You meant the disease.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Because Roosevelt had that.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 You got to talk about it. Right.

Speaker 2 Where am I?

Speaker 1 So.

Speaker 1 Oh, sorry. I lost my place.
And I'm hallucinating from the heat.

Speaker 2 I'm so sorry. No one's in here.
There's nothing you can do.

Speaker 1 So, oh, I was on the totally wrong page. I tried to do that scrolling thing that I do.
All right. So,

Speaker 1 okay, so he married in 1995, he marries a woman that he met through St. Thomas Church, this church that he went to.

Speaker 1 And she was a Harvard MBA who rose to be one of the youngest partners in history at McKinsey. I don't know what that is.

Speaker 2 Law firm? Probably.

Speaker 1 She had a $2 million salary. She was like a legendary businesswoman.

Speaker 2 Fuck, man.

Speaker 1 He meets her at church.

Speaker 1 They hit it off and they get married. He has a way with the ladies.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 He explains to her that none of his family is going to be at the wedding because there had been an argument and he had disinvited all of them. So he has no family there.

Speaker 2 Her flag.

Speaker 1 But he marries into her family. And they have a child named Ray,

Speaker 1 which I actually like that name for a girl.

Speaker 2 Ray.

Speaker 1 Ray, R-E-I-G-H.

Speaker 2 Oh.

Speaker 3 That's cute.

Speaker 1 He nicknamed her Snooks.

Speaker 2 Snooks.

Speaker 1 Which may have been something Thurston Howe III called his wife.

Speaker 2 Snooks, yeah.

Speaker 1 He'd insisted on raising her and educating her himself.

Speaker 1 I would love to meet and talk to her.

Speaker 2 Oh, my God, she's the coolest.

Speaker 1 So, anyway,

Speaker 1 they ultimately get divorced, and

Speaker 1 the wife has to pay him $800,000 in alimony.

Speaker 1 And he won the, the white, the, but she,

Speaker 1 sorry, she won the right to raise Ray

Speaker 1 in London.

Speaker 1 So in 2008, a court supervised visit in Boston, Rockefeller kidnaps Ray.

Speaker 2 Oh, no.

Speaker 1 So she's seven years old.

Speaker 1 He's meeting up with Ray and the court-appointed like social worker, basically. And he runs runs up, pushes that woman over, grabs the little girl, and jumps into a car and drives away.

Speaker 1 The social worker actually ran after and grabbed onto the back bumper of the car for like a little bit, trying to do something about it.

Speaker 3 God.

Speaker 1 But don't worry,

Speaker 1 he lived for this little girl. He just wanted her in his life.
He wasn't going to harm her in any way.

Speaker 2 I know that.

Speaker 1 Everyone in this documentary says it. Like that he would never, he worshipped her and he

Speaker 1 she was everything to him.

Speaker 1 And they and he got caught two weeks later. Okay.
So the, but there was an he he had set up a new identity in Baltimore.

Speaker 1 That's where he was going to become Chip Smith, a professional yacht captain and catamaran designer. But

Speaker 1 he got caught immediately. He was

Speaker 1 in 2009, he was convicted and sentenced to four to five years for abducting his daughter and two to three years for the assault on the social worker who did get

Speaker 1 injured by that SUV

Speaker 1 that he had waiting.

Speaker 2 But

Speaker 1 we'll circle back around now because in 1994,

Speaker 1 the new owners of the Sohus's house in San Marino were digging to build a new pool.

Speaker 2 Uh-oh.

Speaker 1 And they found two bodies

Speaker 1 deep, deep underneath the ground in the backyard at the Zohus's house. And

Speaker 1 it was

Speaker 1 the family members said the bones matched Jonathan Sohus's general description, but he was adopted. So

Speaker 1 they couldn't do a family DNA match.

Speaker 2 Oh, so she adopts this kid.

Speaker 2 And he's this like great nerd. And she loves him so much.

Speaker 1 But she's kind of a boozer.

Speaker 2 And then he takes but then he finds love in a six-foot redhead.

Speaker 1 And they're kind of this mismatched couple that are making it happen.

Speaker 2 And then she thinks he just leaves her.

Speaker 1 Yes.

Speaker 2 Oh, that's the saddest thing I've ever heard.

Speaker 1 So the forensic evidence showed that the victim, who's Jonathan, had been struck in the head two times with a rounded blunt object, then stabbed six times. Holy shit.

Speaker 1 His body had been cut into three parts, and the body parts had been put into book book bags from the University of Wisconsin

Speaker 1 and from USC, where

Speaker 1 Chris

Speaker 2 Clark,

Speaker 1 all these people, he had actually sat in on film classes, never registered as a student, but he used to go to USC and go to classes. He just wasn't actually a student at all.
And so

Speaker 2 that...

Speaker 1 circumstantial evidence combined with the fact that he was arrested driving Jonathan's truck in Greenwich

Speaker 1 basically convicted him of murder.

Speaker 1 Sorry, there was only one body buried in the backyard. They never found Linda.

Speaker 3 Linda.

Speaker 2 Where do you think she is?

Speaker 1 Well, the police suspect that Clark had an affair with Linda.

Speaker 2 Oh, no.

Speaker 1 Because basically, he, Clark thought he was in with Dee Dee and thought that he was going to get her money and get the house and be in San Marino and like have his life. Yeah.

Speaker 1 And then Jonathan and Linda were basically what were standing in the way of that.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 And I think, and he thought, you know, I'll get this is just this crazy old drunk lady. I'm going to get her to sign everything over to me.
And then I'm going to have the life I want.

Speaker 1 And then Linda and Jonathan are just like, you need to move out of here. And basically that's where it started.
So he, the theory is that he tried to break them up as a couple and then he murdered.

Speaker 2 Jonathan. So Linda might be out in the world.

Speaker 1 They think she's dead.

Speaker 2 Yeah, she's dead.

Speaker 1 Yeah. They just think that he brought the body somewhere else.

Speaker 2 That's so sad. I believe.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 He was charged with Jonathan's murder

Speaker 1 and the trial was in April 2013. And he was convicted of first-degree murder.

Speaker 1 And he's now in some weird jail in Ironwood Jail in Blythe, California.

Speaker 2 Wow. Can I see a photo of him? Yeah.

Speaker 2 I want to see him like a mug shot.

Speaker 1 It's so funny because when they talk about like that he's good looking and stuff or that he had away with the ladies.

Speaker 2 Nope. Well, let's see.

Speaker 1 Is he hot? I mean, to each his own.

Speaker 2 Oh my God, he's like a nerd.

Speaker 1 He's so. Well, and also when you see him talking, it's even worse.

Speaker 2 He's got no mouth. Because he kind of talks like this.

Speaker 1 It's like somebody in a bad mustard commercial where you're like, why would you talk like that?

Speaker 2 He looks like he is a character in The Simpsons.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Oh no. Where's his mouth?

Speaker 1 He's just kind of,

Speaker 1 you know, I'm sure he was insecure as a teen. Sure.
And all of that, plus being really smart, you know, just made up for it.

Speaker 2 I don't see him being a ladies' man, but good for him.

Speaker 1 It's all in the brains, brains, brains. Brains, brains, brains.
Brains. We should thank Stephen.
Yeah, thank you, Stephen. Our beautiful engineer who gave us microphones.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 They're beautiful. Thank you.
They really are great. Stephen, you've been killing it.
We appreciate it. Thank you for all your help.
Elvis is sitting there waiting.

Speaker 1 Elvis, it's your big chance.

Speaker 2 Oh, okay. Wait,

Speaker 2 can we try and do this though? Do we do it before or after we say?

Speaker 1 Elvis, you want a cookie?

Speaker 2 You want a cookie?

Speaker 2 Want to see your microphone?

Speaker 1 We usually do it after because

Speaker 1 stay sexy.

Speaker 2 Don't get murdered.

Speaker 2 Okay, we're back. Karen, any updates? There are updates.

Speaker 1 I recently listened to a podcast about this story. I can't, it was like one of those anthology podcasts.
So it was like a bunch of, it was almost like, here's a bunch of rich crimes or whatever.

Speaker 1 And then it was, this guy is like, he isn't really rich, but it is.

Speaker 1 So I just recently kind of revisited this and it just like, God, this is.

Speaker 1 It's just insane. So after numerous denied appeals, Clark Rockefeller, quote unquote, was transferred to San Quentin in December of 2016.
And so he's there now.

Speaker 1 He stays busy painting and he's journalist for the San Quentin News. So with good time credits, he'll be eligible for parole in December of 2029.
He'll be 68 years old if he gets paroled then.

Speaker 1 And his daughter, Ray, has since changed her name, and she lives a private life, which is good for her.

Speaker 2 How wild is it that both of the murderers in this story are in San Quentin right now, as we're speaking? Oh, yeah. Do you think they fucking know each other?

Speaker 1 I would think they do only because aren't the infamous killers like treated slightly differently?

Speaker 2 Yeah, they're like held separately for some reason.

Speaker 1 Get protection maybe if they might need it.

Speaker 2 I don't know. Who knows?

Speaker 1 I definitely don't know, but that's yeah, that's that's crazy observation.

Speaker 2 That's so creepy.

Speaker 1 Okay, so this episode was originally titled, as we have said many times, the fuckword murder mystery show.

Speaker 2 And if we were naming it today, which, you know, that's a classic name, what will we call it based on something we said in this episode?

Speaker 2 So the quietest girls on the podcast, because that's us, obviously us.

Speaker 1 Yes, we're so quiet and demure.

Speaker 1 Excuse me, which is what Georgia, she's talking about saying a spoiler without warning, and it's like burping without saying excuse me before or after,

Speaker 1 which if that's the case, we have burped and burped and burped literally and figuratively all the way through this show.

Speaker 2 We have never said spoiler alert before our burps, for sure.

Speaker 1 I remember people getting mad about that and putting it in, like on social media and me kind of because of that in the beginning.

Speaker 1 Like, can you please say spoiler alert? And it's just like, yeah, no, yeah, no, like you have to, it's the standing spoiler alert.

Speaker 2 We're going to ruin it for you. Right.
It's also like, okay, but did that air like five weeks ago? Like, what's the cutoff? It's not on us anymore. It's on you.
30 years ago.

Speaker 2 We're spoiling a rear window for you.

Speaker 1 I mean, I don't think also, I'm not like, I basically have gone into lockdown until I see no Sferatu. So like that's just the

Speaker 1 life I'm willing to live if I want a totally fresh experience.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it's on

Speaker 2 you. Take some responsibility.

Speaker 1 Wait a second. There's also

Speaker 1 Alejandra's suggestion, meow, meow, meow, meow, which is me doing a theme song for Tweet Corner, and it says it's Mimi's theme song as well.

Speaker 2 Well, you probably just heard it because you just listened to Rewind, which we fucking appreciate. Thank you guys for listening.

Speaker 1 It's so nice for you to re-engage and to churn up all of the old stuff and look at it and piece through it with us.

Speaker 2 Take what works for you, leave the rest, like an AA. And thanks for being here.

Speaker 1 Leave a penny, take a penny.

Speaker 2 Yeah, all of it.

Speaker 1 It's one of those kinds of podcasts. Let's do it that way.
So stay sexy.

Speaker 2 And don't get murdered. Goodbye.

Speaker 2 Elvis, do you want a cookie?

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