Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 29: Twenty-Nein

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My favorite. My savior Hello! And welcome to Rewind with Karen and Georgia.
You see, every Wednesday, we transport you to a simpler time, back when the iPhone 7 was cutting edge and Suicide Squad dominated the box office. That's right.
So join us as we take you back to August 11th, 2016, because now you can basically all be day one listeners. And today we're recapping episode 29, which at the time we named 29 with the German spelling of the word nine.
29, I think is how you pronounce it. Seems problematic to me in the light of 2025.
In the light of everything, everything is problematic. Yeah, that's very true.
So let's listen to the intro to episode 29. Welcome to My Favorite Murder.
That's Karen Kilgarith. That is Georgia Hartstar.
start you know no one can tell our voices apart still i know it's pretty weird someone sent us a um i love when the true the um hometown murders are people sending in like i know secret information about the case you already covered yes because i know people from the whatever the fuck we love that And someone was like last week sent us one i was like karen i'm sorry to disappoint you but it was my case yeah i was like i'm sorry no we're sorry to disappoint you there's that happens a lot when people talk about i love when i think they say like karen says oh my fucking god during when george is telling it whatever it was it was like the reverse and i knew it was for sure because it was like one of your phrases yeah um jesus fucking christ but yeah i mean i i just think it's precious it's so weird i feel like i mean we're such different people there was a fucking thing on facebook that was like are you a karen or a georgia did you see that and it made me sad oh why because

I was like nobody wants to be me were they both bad no everyone loves you and I'm not I was just everyone's like I'm a Karen but my best friend is a Georgia so that's fine I'm a Karen how do we and then people were like it's funny how people will explain to other people how you can tell the difference between us

and it's that you sing everything.

Yes.

That's me. And I also have a scratchy voice because sometimes, sometimes late at night I smoke cigarettes.
You do not. Yeah, I do.
Do you, Karen? Yeah, sometimes. And you can tell.
You can actually, you can tell how many I've been smoking because like right now I've been smoking. I don't why I'm scandalized by this are you really because you never told me and I feel like I thought we knew I thought I knew you no I don't also because it's such a special thing that you do alone I think it's wonderful that you have that time to yourself well sometimes at my house like I'm home at the end of the night and you have a great backyard what else are you gonna use it sit in that backyard.
Sometimes I just stick my feet right in that pool. Karen, you're living the life I want to live.
It's pretty. I don't mind it.
But it's also like I'm tired and I don't get to drink anymore and I don't get to do anything anymore. So I'll just smoke a little hand rolled Valley Shag cigarette.
Do you hand the roll of yourself yeah karen this is why everyone wanted to be you because i'm so fucking european they were saying like karen's a badass and i want to be i think it's because i'm scared of everything and talk about therapy that's all it is is you are honest about your anxieties and i'm always like just try to kill me which is the most insane thing every once a while, it'll hit me where I'm like, oh, I've actually said that out loud. Permanently.
These recordings are permanent. There's nothing we can do about it.
And I've actually been like, I don't care. When the end days come, there's going to be no record of this.
So it doesn't matter. When what happens? The end days come.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. This is all going to be wiped off.
Well, the grid's going to go down. Oh, yeah.
And it won't matter what's recorded because we won't be able to access it. Delta is the first fucking, is the first.
Airplane line that'll go down? No, it just went down like yesterday. Delta what? They had like a blackout.
Really? At their main hub and everything was grounded and it's like. Across the country? Yeah, they're like, there was just a glitch.
And you're like, bullshit. Bullshit.
Whenever I hear those things and I was like, someone, there was just a glitch and you're like bullshit bullshit i whenever i hear those things and i was like someone there was just a glitch no way uh-uh don't even no there was that was the lizard men that are underneath the denver airport they are they're down there and they're fucking with the mainframe man don't even how much did you love as soon as i heard this on stranger things that they had a fucking um mk ultra line like wait really line did you watch it all no i have i think i have like two left or three left have you been to the possible 11's mom's house yet no yes they mention mk ultra and that's why she's like that yeah because she was one of the people they were experimenting on has anyone listened to this i don't want to i don't want to spoil anything yeah yeah yeah spoilers uh okay i missed that detail i just thought they say mk ultra in it holy shit yeah oh that makes me like it 1000 times more yeah okay i have to go back and get through i have to on be honest when i binge watch shows especially on netflix and you just can like it hit enter on the blue box and you just keep going there'll be times where i just fall asleep and i don't even know which one i'm on i just wake up and keep watching whatever's on I have the kind of insomnia that you can't fall asleep in front of television I've never fallen asleep in front of maybe wrestling that's Vince's fault wow we couldn't be more different that's how I fall asleep every night it's very bad for you to to sleep in front of the TV well now I wonder how bad it is I can't fall asleep now without listening to the Sleep With Me podcast. Like I can't.
You're his slave. I'm his slave.
So I wonder if someday they're going to be like, it's worse than falling asleep to TV because he's infiltrating my dreams. That's right.
Well, if he is from NK Ultra, you're screwed. Oh, yeah.
Yeah. I'm kind of okay with it.
Do you think he's so great? You're fine with it. it i'm fine with it whatever his agenda might be like same with elvis when everyone and when it's like oh they you know you get a virus from cats and it takes over your brain and makes you a zombie i'm like i don't care he's so cute he's so nice he's so sweet if he thinks i need a to be a zombie then i'll you know he knows what's best for me sure absolutely yeah and also you know you're gonna go whether you're a zombie for a cat or you get hit by a bus you are going to leave this earthly plane so just accept it yeah his head smells like a library book the girl who was in love with her cat all right uh do you have housekeeping i have a housekeeping that makes me very happy oh good um because it's twofold housekeeping it was a tweet that my hero nico case singer songwriter um nico case tweeted you got a tiny little happy clap from steven just now yay we love her love nico case um don't tell me that the connection was lost and there was a loading phone no well basically she retweeted um this story i'm pretty sure it was from the cbc about how their government the canadian government is now opening an investigation on all the missing indigenous women in canada so that's like all the women so you know like robert picton i I'm going to eventually do one on him.
If you don't beat me to it, he's the pig farmer in Canada that was just murdering women. And they, I think it was in the hundreds.
Did he feed? Yeah. Yeah.
It's a bad one. It's so dark.
It's yours. Okay.
Cause it's too dark. It's too, it's too something's too something for me but i don't know what yet too many pigs too many pigs man no it's just um yeah i don't know well so there's it's to making a murderer oh okay in a lot of different ways go ahead well there's just a there's been a bunch of and this is very in america i think our version of it is women of color black women that get murdered and it's just as if no one talks about it isn't you you see all the little blonde girls are always on the news if they are go missing or murdered yeah but it doesn't happen with black women and so the canadian version i think is indigenous women indian women is the incorrect term for it but um so the there's the highway of tears where women go disappearing on it uh robert picked and they named another guy that i didn't recognize the name um i hope picton is the right lesson and you know what i want to do mass murders because i feel like i won't give enough time to each of the women i'd rather do a this is what the victim was who the victim was their story right then here's who the murderer was and it's like and there's 19 women right yeah no then that's okay this is bad that's yours but anyway it's it it's like hundreds of indigenous indigenous women have gone missing in the last say if i could open this article i would god i would be accurate, I would be accurate with my numbers.
But no, that's okay. Do you want to pause? I can give you my Wi-Fi connection.
I know every time you get upset, but let's pause it. No, no, no, no.
It's fine. Because the general idea is just what Nico Case was trying to get the word out about.
And I retweeted it on our Twitter feed as well as just the government is trying to do something about it. They're trying

to find the women. They're trying to investigate the murders.
They're trying to actually put a focus and say, these women are important, just as important as anybody else. And we're going to do something about this, which is humongous that a country like on the whole would just admit that they haven't up until this point.
And now they're going to. That's incredible.
It's really great. That's amazing.
It's very hopeful to me about like this. It feels like a new era in crime.
Thank you. The name of the article is just how an unflinching gaze on missing and murdered indigenous women might move Canada forward.
Incredible. Very cool.
And it was, I was right, this is ABC News.

I'll take it. If it's even that small, I will take an accuracy moment.
I will not take it away from you. Thank you.
I appreciate it. That's, I mean, that's really the whole story.
That's, I'm still trying to think of a way that we can donate part of the proceeds or like help some way with the untested rape kit situation.

Marsha, Mariska,

Mariska Harvich. donate part of the proceeds or like help some way with the untested rape kit situation mariska mariska mariska hargitay thank you i want to give her all my money and like do it georgia was in a manic episode and karen she gave a multi-millionaire all her money and karen totally was like do it so so george is suing karen i think that's it all ends in a lawsuit between you and i oh i didn't see that coming because of my undiagnosed manic no i don't have that we call it the big giveaway george are really just no no no i think that's a really good idea i would love to the proceeds of something that we earn money for because this podcast goes to those untested.
Well, we have live shows like you guys were in the fucking process of like having live shows be a part of our lives. Yeah.
And a part of your lives, Texas. We're going to invite people.
Texas. What? We got some numbers back.
That was a brag, but we got some numbers back. And hey, Texas, turns out you like us.
I was so surprised by that. We both started laughing so hard.
But it makes sense. Yeah.
That's Texas. Texas has some good murders.
Texas knows what they're talking about in terms of murder. Can I just say that once we got all this, we got all this like information about our numbers.
And then we were driving home and we almost had to pull over to start crying with how happy we both were but how well this is how like how what a great it's pretty nice it's pretty great it's pretty nice that we're we're getting popular because we talk about death yeah I think that's lovely I love you guys thanks for listening okay I also want to say really quickly that in therapy in therapy one of the things about was that um how crazy i am and how much anxiety i have because when i go to the back of my building to do laundry i lock my front door and how crazy is that that i think someone's going to break in and then i read an article there's a fucking echo park rapist and one of the ways he got into her house was when she was doing fucking laundry in the back of her apartment and she left her door unlocked and went in. There is, it's not anxiety when you're just being careful.
I texted my therapist the article. And said, in your face, bitch? No, because she was like, you know, yeah.
Now she doesn't want to see me anymore. And now she said, find someone else.
No, because she was like, you know, we're allowed to take certain precautions and that's okay. And you can that but when you start you know blah blah blah then it's so she supported it and i was like i feel so justified uh well also that's good i mean jesus christ good to know right yes hey there's there's no shame in locking things double i lock people will walk by in the crosswalk and they're part of my brain goes they might be able to hear it if you lock the door whatever and it's like i don't give a shit doesn't matter much louder voice that says sorry to offend you but you don't get to in case you had the idea right maybe you're on some white drug so like when you're sitting at a stop sign and someone goes to walk by and you go click to lock your car door yeah yeah you're like well they're gonna get mad at me fuck you well because you look creepy that's a good way to let someone know they look creepy yeah i get the idea because you're giving me the eye yeah so yeah i don't we've said this a million times fuck politeness fuck politeness yeah there could be new listeners who don't yet know to fuck politeness oh yeah fuck politeness and um oh you'll you'll learn there's a ton of stuff you'll have a lot of experiences in your life that'll make you make you question uh how about if you're going between the laundry room and your house lock your goddamn door lock your fucking door lock if you live in a major city or not at your parents house lock your door it feels really good because literally that that was a worry every single time i walk out back is i come in the door and i check for the cats because if the cats were still out where they were that meant no one was in there because but if they were hiding that would mean someone came in the house right that's crazy no it's not that's a good theory that's a theory based on observation.
Yeah. And we're back.
Hey, if you're still listening from Texas, thank you. Yeah.
Thanks, you guys. Incredible.
What a miracle. Texas was there in the beginning.
They were there hard for us. They do that.
They do everything a little hard. Yeah, they're like, they rep and they're there that made me think of wasn't it in texas i believe dallas when the women got into our van to go to the theater and the driver was just like yeah no they just thought it was like one of the ubers or something and the driver was just like yeah i guess these are the two girls yeah that was they

were like and then we met them as they were returned to the hotel and returned to the yes laughing their asses off yeah and they were very funny yeah that's texas to me that's texas in my heart it was beautiful night it's so funny that that was the beginning of are you a karen are you at Georgia?

I know.

That was like the BuzzFeed days.

Crazy.

Oh, yeah.

It seems like crazy. night.
It's so funny that that was the beginning of Are You a Karen? Are You a Georgia? I know. That was like the BuzzFeed days.
Crazy. Oh, yeah.
1000 years ago. That was a BuzzFeed quiz.
So exciting. Like this is when everything was just like popping off in a really unexpected, insane way.
Like, we just didn't know what the hell was happening. We really didn't.
We thought it was kind of funny. And as I've said a thousand times, I thought it was going to wrap up in three to five weeks.
And you never covered Robert Pickton, which I think is a good thing, right? I do too. I was gonna, remember that show we did the first time we did a show in Vancouver? I was going to cover him at that Vancouver show.

Remember we were in that high rise hotel that was like we had like we were on the 18th floor or something. We had these amazing views.
Wasn't I sick? And so I was an hour late because I was napping and just like didn't put the time correct because I was like because I was like literally had a cold on stage. Yeah.
Yes. There was also one also in Vancouver where I went downstairs and couldn't find where Vince was meeting us.
So you were on one side of the hotel and I was on the other and I could not figure out where you were. Yeah.
Do you remember that one where it's like everything was like this weird delay or just kind of like what's going on? That's what touring is. It's just a delay to get to a place to wait.
Yeah. To do homework.
Right. And not look at anything about the city.
And then have 3,000 people cheer for you. So.
Yeah. Did you see this update that Robert Pickton was murdered in prison just this past June? Right.
Yeah. Wow.
I mean, not a surprise. He's one of the worst serial killers of all time.
He is one of the worst predators of women and marginalized women. And like that story and all of that corruption around that story is so fucking dark that when I went to do it in Vancouver, like, oh, this is your guy's hometown.
It's like, nobody wants to recount basically

this kind of like internal corruption

that allows women with no voice

to just be brutalized over and over and over.

No, there's a few of these murders

that I feel like we'll never do.

And we've talked about it.

This is one of them.

The Speed Free.

Toy Box.

Toy Box Killer, the Speed Free Killer. And then Charles Ng, I feel like, will never do.
Just because you read it, and it's just an empty pit of fucking horribleness. I think, too, that's how you kind of learn the shape of when you're doing a podcast.
It's like we very early on understood that we were going to do this podcast our way. You know, for example, talking for 45 minutes at the beginning about everything but true crime, et cetera, et cetera.
But just because to follow the pattern of standardized true crime is very difficult.

Those shows that do it that are actually journalist-led and thoroughly researched and are, like, are invaluable. Have compassion.
Yeah. Yes.
But it's, like, just to retell these stories is—it's just—the darkness is tough. Yeah.
You need something more than that, for sure. Especially in a quarantine, for example.
Right, right. Which we were in for quite a while, if I remember correctly.
We were in for quite a while. Real quick, before we get into your story, we did mention Marissa Hargitay's nonprofit.
It's still going on. It's called the Joyful Heart Foundation.
And since 2004, Joyful Heart has been a leading national organization with a mission to transform society's response to sexual assault, domestic violence, and child abuse, support survivors healing, and end this violence forever. Yes, you can donate or learn more about the Joyful Heart Foundation by going to joyfulheartfoundation.org.
I mean, I think Mariska Hargitay is like,

it's a legend now for having played Olivia Benson

on SVU for years and years

and then basically turning all of that work

into this activism that's really been very effective.

And like, it's just the coolest.

She's the coolest.

Yeah. And hey, while we're here,

let's donate 10 grand to the Joyful Heart Foundation.

Love it.

Great idea.

Cool.

How do you get these ideas?

It's just, they just come into my mind.

I don't even know how.

Speaking of ideas coming from nowhere, let's listen to your epic story.

This is like a classic.

Karen telling the story of John List. A Valley Strong Credit Union.
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So I've known about this one for a long time

because it was made famous

by that great American television show,

America's Most Wanted.

Hell yeah.

Do you remember the America's Most Wanted about John List, the man who killed his entire family and then disappeared for 19 years? Yes. Yes, you do.
Yes. Well, that's my favorite murder for this week.
Let me hear it. I'm going to tell you all about it.
All right. So John List was a successful businessman.
He was a devout, lifelong Lutheran. He was a Sunday school teacher.
He was a Boy Scout leader, a husband, a father of three. His family lived with his mother, so their grandmother, in a sprawling 19-room mansion called Bree's Knoll in Westfield, New Jersey.
But behind closed doors, things were not going well. Shocking.
This is me kind of trying to write like a, you know, 2020 version of this. This is this is a narrative.
This is I'm really trying to put something into this and it might not really work out that well because it feels a bit sweaty right now. I feel like I'm trying.
Well, it's hot in here. It also is very hot.
It's summer in Los Angeles. So John lists wife, Helen, which they didn't, none of this you knew from America's Most Wanted.
Oh, I love this stuff. Tell me.
His wife, Helen was an alcoholic who was verbally abusive and unstable. She sounds fun.
When you see the picture of the List family, her eyes are going in two different directions was she dressed well though yes it was the picture i think was from like the mid-60s so they look like any family oh my god i just picture her at like a party and she's just drunk and like but she looks amazing yes i love it like she's got like a jackie o outfit on but her face is like is just like kooky eyes and like bubbles above her head like talking loudly about their bedroom secrets oh yeah girl you just nailed it shut up okay ready oh my god so uh she demanded that that um John buy her that colonial mansion in Westfield which is a very ritzy, apparently, town in New Jersey, or was in the

60s and 70s, when John landed his high status position as bank vice president and comptroller, which is one of my favorite words in the English language. So good.
Comptroller. I don't know what it means.
I love to say it. I'm running for comptroller this year.
um. So what no one knew is that John had recently been fired from being the bank president and comptroller.
Stress. And he, even though he was an ambitious career man, could never hold a job for more than a couple of years because of his personality problems, personality issues, quote unquote.
Oh my God. Uh-huh.
but he couldn't let his family know that he'd gotten fired so every day he got up and he put on his suit and he grabbed his briefcase and he went to the train station like he was going to work and those people terrify me yes it's such deep denial it's insane denial of like, everything's fine. And then there's crazy

things boiling underneath. Those people, man.
Yeah. So he would sit at the train station and read newspapers all day until it was time to quote unquote, come home from work.
Holy shit. Right.
And meanwhile, he was skimming money off of his mother's bank account so he could pay his crazy mortgage on his colonial 19-room mansion,

and all the other bills are piling up so in short john list was lutheran fuck up under pressure that's what i wrote um that's good so here's his plan he on the morning of 9th, 1971, after his children had left for school, John walked into the kitchen where his wife was drinking her morning coffee at the kitchen table. And he walked up and he shot her in the back of the head with a nine millimeter handgun.
Wow. Then he went upstairs to the third floor of their mansion where his mother had her own like what are the sweet yes her own little apartment wing wing yeah a wing of the mansion and he shot her in the head right over her left eye which to me sounds like he shot her face to face oh yeah which is pretty intense jesus then he drove to the bank and he closed his account and his mother's accounts and he cashed in his mother's savings bonds.
He came home. He went to a study.
He collected some old photos and documents concerning the mansion's history and he put them in a neat pile on his desk and he composed a letter, a thank you letter to John Whitkey, who was a descendant of the original owner of the house. The shit.
the important stuff yeah and then he also wrote four other letters he called barbara bader who was the woman who carpooled his sons john and fred to roosevelt junior high school and she had done that for the last time that morning oh my god he made an excuse that the whole family was leaving to go to north carolina um the next morning because helen's was extremely ill. And he promised that he would let her know when they were coming back.
Then he canceled the newspaper, milk delivery, and he asked the post office to hold the mail until further notice. Was there going to be further notice? Absolutely not.
No. So now it's lunchtime.
So he made himself a lunch, sat down at the table where he had just shot his wife and then cleaned up the blood off the table. Bologna or cold meat loaf? I would guess bologna because he's just like, he's all business.
He just wants to get proteins and calories. Bologna on white with mustard.
With mustard only. And some, do they have potato chips back then i would don't think john list would eat potato chips i think he would eat two sandwiches instead of having a delicious side karen that was the best that was what i was looking for because i love food details that's my opinion of john list no that was that was beautiful yeah that's the kind of stuff I can't understand that.
Like that's such a dude move where I'm like you could have chips the only thing you want with a sandwich. Yeah.
Or pickles. Double down.
Pickle slices. Pickles are nice.
Yeah. But I always you know me and the starches.
Oh right. Well sure everyone can start but you just don't keep them at your house or eat them all eat them all.
That's right. I mean, not you.
One. One.
So then he went around and cut himself out of every family photo in the entire house. Why is that the craziest part? To me, I did it as a standalone because it's the creepiest fact to me in this whole case.
It's so fucking creepy. That is then come now it's early afternoon so he's waiting for his children to come home from school patricia who was 16 a drama nerd and it was the it was 1971 so she had been caught smoking pot oh she was the coolest she was cool and she came home he shot her in the back of the head honey then his son frederick the youngest who was 13 came home he shot him in the back of the head so they didn't even know that their father no and he and he actually in the court later revealed that that he did it his wife and his kids back of the head so that they didn't know what happened but mom is a different story his mother was a different story which is very telling to me let's get to yeah tell me more but then also john jr is a different story the 15 year old who was named after him and supposedly his favorite there was like a couple different versions of this some said he just came straight home from school but the one i the best, which is the one I will tell, is that he had a soccer game that day.
So John List drove to the school, watched his son's soccer game, drove him home, tried to shoot him, but he maybe saw the gun and freaked out. So he ended up shooting him in the face and chest over 10 times.
Wow. So overkill, crazy fucking overkill.
Yeah. And knew what was happening as it went.
Once in the chest and once in the face, I get, something went worse than wrong or he hated him more. Like something went especially wrong for 10 times 10 times yes because this was a man that was doing it like uh neatly and cleanly and pretending systematically he was like checking off a list sure but when it came this guy wasn't john jr didn't play ball and made it hard for him and i think that's like like the rage came out.
Oh, yeah. Like, how dare you?

You're making this too hard for me.

Not even like you're showing me how,

what horrible I am.

No, no, no.

You're ruining my plan.

You're ruining my good time.

Oh, my God.

It's hideous.

So then he dragged,

he got sleeping bags from down from the basement

and he put all the bodies on the sleeping bags,

then dragged them into the back of the house to what room? The ballroom. Yes.
Yeah. They had a ballroom in this mansion that wasn't even decorated or furnished in any way.
That's how big this house house was. And so he pulled his wife and three children's dead bodies on sleeping bags back into the ballroom he put a piece of cloth over each of their faces um and he left them there turned it into basically like a makeshift morgue then he fed the children's pet fish in the 20 gallon tank in the dining room what went upstairs and went to sleep holy shit yeah so he's are the fish okay that's the kind of thought this man is having are the fish okay is this i mean as much as because i need to put a name on things is this sociopath um oh i'm we'll talk about the name later but i he probably i mean i don't know enough anytime it's like clearly you have no feelings yeah that's what i want to label it as me too but yeah it's almost but he is the real term for this guy is a family annihilator yeah and it's like a thing that happens and there's a couple different kinds and they'll never kill anyone else again kind of a thing yes right it's it's a situational thing for them yeah tell me more okay so the next morning he gets up, he gets dressed, he goes downstairs, he turns the thermostat all the way down.
He turns on every light in the house and then he leaves the house and he leaves Westfield forever. Now, the weird thing is no one noticed.
Of course. No one in the neighborhood noticed that this family was not there and that's because they this family did not socialize which is kind of common if you have a crazy drunk mom like they stayed in they didn't talk to anybody the neighbors knew john list as the guy who mowed his lawn in a suit and tie jesus i think the most suspicious part would be that all the lights are on.
That's right. You know what I mean? Yeah.
Like nobody, especially in a 19 room mansion. Yeah.
You're like, sorry, nobody's in the greenhouse. Nobody's in the brightest house on the block.
It's, they're not having a party. So because of all this careful planning and because they were basically anti-social and reclusive um it took a full month for anybody to actually discover these bodies a month a full month um so the neighbors noticed that these lights were on day and night and that they were always on and that they started burning out.
And that's when they started getting suspicious. Oh, that's creepy.
Can you imagine seeing like one room is out and then the next room is out? Yeah. And never comes back on.
So clear. And no one's coming in or out of the house.
So something super creepy is happening up there. But also you don't want to think about it because what could it be that would be that weird? Yeah.
But who does? This is the most cinematic, I think, of all the stories because Patty's drama teacher is the one who's like, I don't like the smell of this. Oh my God.
His name was Edwin Illiano. And he thought it was weird that the entire family was gone that long.
And also he had a terrible feeling because Patty once told him if his family goes on vacation, my dad has killed us. I knew she talked to him about something.
Yeah. She said that she said it to him.
So, uh, after, you know, 28 days, Oh, and he'd also met him once and thought he was super weird. Oh my God.
So days edwin iliano convinces his associate barbara sheridan to go to the house with him to check on patty and they drive up there um they try to look into some windows and their being there makes the neighbors call the cops because they see people finally on the property yeah and when the cops show up, Edwin explains to them, it's, oh, the neighbors, William and Shirley Cunick are their names. They're the ones that called the police.
And patrol officers George Zahelsnik and Charles Heller were the first to arrive. So Ileano explains what's going on, and the officers decide they're going to force open a window and go inside.
And when they open that window, they're hit with the smell of death. Thank you.
So I forgot this might be my creepiest detail. Oh, good.
When they go into the house, the first thing they notice is that there's organ music playing loudly over the house intercom. I'm going to cry.
I'm going to cry because there's

an intercom in this house. And because there's organ music.
So you're jealous of the intercom.

Yeah. Cause that's so cool.
Yeah. And organ music is the creepiest thing I've ever heard.

John List set up, they kept calling it a recorder and all these articles that I read. When you do

research, you realize everyone rips everybody off. It's hilarious.
Insane. So calling something a recorder makes no sense.
It sounds like it's the instrument children play in grammar school, which would be even creepier. Just a child playing the recorder really loud.
Or it's like, oh, God, no. Okay, I was going to go deep.
Go on. He had set up a thing that just played this music on a loop until you physically turned it off and then set it to play over the intercom.
What was like an old machine or something? I guess so. I mean, they call a recorder, maybe a recording device or like a reel to reel.
Yeah, that sounds right. Cause it was 71.
Let's go with that. So, uh, Oh, I said two things.
Organ music is good for ice skating and mass murdering. See, I'm trying too hard now.
I need to keep it conversational. So upstairs in the study, they find a five-page letter that List had written to his pastor, Eugene Renwinkle.
Sorry. Why did they make it? I don't know.
It's like bad writing. What should we name the old pastor of the lutheran church eugene renwinkel oh my god um so in that letter he said he felt the 70s were a sinful time and that his family was beginning to succumb to temptation especially his daughter because of her interest in acting which is an occupation that list viewed as being particularly corrupt and linked to Satan, which is true fucking slayed them all what the yes so the holy religious thing to do is kill everybody john so it was like he thought it was like a mercy killing that's exactly right uh he saw too much evil in the world he'd killed his family to save their souls very nice That's very nice of you, you fucking dick.
And also, how giving. Now, he said he didn't kill himself because...
Yeah, well, let's hear it. He didn't kill himself because suicide is a mortal sin.
That would definitely bar him from heaven, as opposed to murdering five people where you're still in a gray area that can be negotiated what are you talking about narcissism extreme narcissism sociopathy i definitely narcissism i don't think the sociopath thing might not apply only because um this is the one-off people get mad at people get it's a five-off sorry that's five-off okay we're not saying all narcissists are murderers right that but however this is an extreme case of narcissists yeah it's a it's a element in this personality disorder yeah uh i'm a narcissist i've never killed anybody except for in comedy boo okay okay uh later a reporter who covered the trial described hearing this letter when it was read aloud in court. And he said, quote, I'll never forget the audible sigh of shock from the jury and spectators when the last line of lists letter was read.
P.S. Mother is in the hallway in the attic third floor.
She was too heavy to move my god dang that's your mom yeah it's like a moving like a moving box that you just like couldn't yeah someone take care of that upstairs like it's your mother do you think you might have had a slight problem with her yeah okay so a nationwide manhunt is launched but he's got a month uh lead time he's he's way ahead police investigated hundreds of leads without success all reliable photographs of list had been destroyed so it wasn't i was creeped out yeah turns out it was kind of like super smart yeah oh i didn't get i didn't catch on to that uh i did not either um the family car was found at kennedy airport but there was no evidence he had boarded a flight he was gone and would remain gone for 18 years wow then on may 21st 1989 forward forward into the 80s yay the murders were recounted on America's Most Wanted, which at the time

had been on the air

less than a year.

Oh my God.

And it featured

an age progressed,

age progressed,

sorry,

age progressed clay bust

sculpted by the forensic artist

Frank Bender.

And it turned out to bear

an almost exact resemblance

to List's appearance.

Maybe I'm making this up, but I fucking remember seeing this. No, you remember because I'm about to hold up a picture to you.
Oh! Oh! I'm so excited! All right. Oh my God, oh my God.
I was nine, so I was like old enough to remember this. Yes, and this was, I remember it, I was 19.
Oh, grandma and baby. Give me a hug.
Bender consulted a forensic psychologist and created a psychological profile of List. He looked at photographs of List's parents and predicted what he would look like as he aged.
Holy shit. He gave him a receding hairline and sagging jaws.
Bender was particularly lauded for one final touch he added to his completed artwork. It was a pair of glasses.
Bender believed List would not be vain enough to wear contact lenses. However, he said List would have worn a pair of glasses different from those he wore before the murders.
He said they would be a pair with thick, dark frames. He and the psychologist theorized that List would do this to hide, in a sense.
He would want to disguise the fact that he was a failure and appear more important than he really was. Holy shit.
So these big old glasses remember that dude i remember this is real john list and this is that sculpture we fuck it's fucking like exact oh my god you guys look this up right now steven isn't that crazy we'll put it we'll put it on uh social media oh i'll put this on our insta but this frank bender nailed it so literally less than two weeks later they got a ton of calls but less than two weeks later they find him in virginia um and the hilarious part is in the court uh john list reveals he was watching the show that night with his new wife and he was quoted as saying i was perspiring like anything but his wife didn't recognize him but no way she had a fucking she had a veil of i can't over her fucking eyes and i bet a little vin rose a little rose a little bottle of rose she had all kinds of different veils uh yeah okay so they go to trial um he explained that he had lost his job he explained he was dealing with his wife's alcoholism and trial reveal her untreated tertiary syphilis that she had contracted from her first husband, an army lieutenant who was killed in combat in Korea and concealed for 18 years. So his crazy wife that used to verbally abuse him and publicly, maybe I skipped that part, but there's, oh no, it's in this part um he says in court that she used to publicly um insult him about uh wait did i guess that completely yes you go you absolutely guessed it out of the blue yeah well syphilis makes you go fucking bananas um he list said by by then the disease and her excessive alcohol consumption had according to testimony transfer transformed her from an attractive young woman to an unkempt paranoid recluse who frequently and often publicly disparaged list comparing his sexual skills unfavorably to those of her first husband the one who gave her syphilis syphilis jesus that scared the shit out of me so here's me playing the prosecuting attorney mr list can you explain how your wife often disparages your sexual skills in public if she's a recluse no more questions your honor and i turn around slam my blazer down onto the chair all right so basically john list trip makes all these excuses in court he's like i have ptsd from being in the army um i uh what's what else do you say i oh wait a smoker he oh it was my wife my kids were going crazy i was abused as a child my father always

told me that you had to provide for your family and that you had to do this and you had to do that

and i and i wasn't doing anything any of those things because i lost my job blah blah blah so

a court appointed psychiatrist testified list suffered from obsessive compulsive personality disorder.

Yeah.

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yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah's teachings, blah, blah, blah. So this is a common thing with family annihilators.
They say that there are two types and one is a livid coercive killer. And those are the ones that are usually abusive and they kill the family when the family tries to run away from them.
So it's years of abuse, years of abuse, the family tries to escape and then it's like- We see those all the time. I'll teach you all, yes.
But the other kind is the civil reputable killer and they're motivated by a perverse form of altruism. So it's his way of rescuing the family from shame and hardship.
And in his obsessive compulsive narcissism, John List didn't choose to fix his own problems, but instead he fixated on the family problems and the problems of society.

um 81 of family annihilators kill themselves after killing their family um so that's when in my opinion john list's argument of this i was doing the best for the family breaks down

because he went on to live a happy life for 19 years in Colorado. And what, sorry, the part that I was skipping over is he basically told everybody what happened was the day after the murders, he took the train from New Jersey to Michigan and then from Michigan to colorado he settled in denver he took an accounting job as robert peter bob clark and that's subtle yeah kind of plain but then also exciting yeah exciting in a way pick one of those names um he was uh the controller at a paper box manufacturer outside denver he was they said controller, I want to say cop controller.
You know what? It's our fucking story to tell. That's right.
And then what he do? He joined the Lutheran congregation, ran a carpool for shut-in church members, and met an army PX clerk named Dolores Miller and married her in 1985. It's almost like he's trying to prove to himself that he's actually a good person.
It was just circumstantial. It was them.
Yep. His wife, his alcoholic syphilitic wife, his hippie daughter, his rebellious children.
They ruined it for him. I feel like in the fifties that might have worked better than in the seventies and eighties that excuse, or like the 80s but like that that came to an end it seems like right because it well that was also like the oldest version of like there's only a father that's the breadwinner it's never the mother and no one gets divorced and this is the the american dream you have to have a house and two kids all that bullshit everyone got sold.
Yeah. That everyone kind of had to swallow whole, basically.
Also, John List was abused as a child, which is a very common thing in family annihilators because they feel powerless. They felt powerless as children.
So when they have families, they're exerting power over the family to give them that power now they're in charge exactly and then when that doesn't work they don't know how to deal with it oh man when when the 70s come and the daughter's like i'm gonna go crazy yeah when there's a fucking cultural revolution throughout the country and your daughter's like i think i might want to act yeah instead of being a devout lutheran yeah uh yeah so they they're trying to create the the life they never had that they fantasized of as abused children right and then when that goes to shit they're just like well we're starting over yeah essentially yeah um i guess the the bet this has a great twist ending. Oh, good.
So that, the, the bet,

this has a great twist ending.

Oh,

good.

So that he was,

he was convicted of five counts of murder of,

and the judge said,

John,

John Emma list is without remorse and without honor.

After 18 years,

five months and 22 days,

it's now time for, for the voices of Helen, Alma, Patricia, Frederick, and John F. List to rise from the grave.
That's beautiful. And he imposed a sentence of five terms of life imprisonment to be served consecutively.
It was the maximum penalty. And List died of pneumonia in prison on March 21st 2008 wow his body was not claimed because who's gonna fucking claim it he lived for a long time he really did the second wife didn't return the call and the morgue was like oh we have your she's like that ain't my hello but eventually someone took him back and he was buried next to his mother in michigan

oh she's like fuck this guy yeah get out of here you shot me the fucking face and then wouldn't even carry me to the ballroom but are you ready for this twist ending that oh that's not it yeah this is it so somebody burnt down breeze knoll the great the great mansion some that no one's never even looked into who might have done it.

Was it a ghost?

They just did it.

Could have been a ghost.

Could have been a ghost fire um there's a new jersey ghost fire um but destroyed along with the home was the ballroom stained glass skylight which was a signed tiffany original oh she's worth at least a hundred000 at the time, which would have covered his expenses. It was right there the whole time in that room.
You didn't go in because you couldn't deal with it. Oh, my God.
That's going to be someone's new ringtone, by the way. john that's john list everybody oh also because he disappeared in 71 and db um cooper db cooper they thought he was db for a while because he kind of looks like that sketch yeah mr vague uh and he db cooper sold two hundred thousand dollars which was kind of around they figured around how much john list owed are they sure it wasn't him uh john list vehemently denied it from jail that's how fucking boring this guy is no i'm not no i insist i'm not db cooper well it could have been cool if you were yeah but maybe he doesn't i bet it was him no he was i don't think this guy would have jumped out of a plane he was too scared to tell his wife he got fired okay you know okay maybe he thought i don't know just do lutherans like jesus maybe he thought jesus would help out yeah jesus did help out he gave him a beautiful skylight a tiffany skylight the lord said it was right there all along you know that whoever burnt that house down i was fucking bummed they didn't know that too yeah there was some real estate agent that ran up at the at the last what are you doing at least get the thing you ghosts and your arson okay we're back remember when conan o'brien guested on our show and told us this story like we had never heard it before? Yeah.
But also, I mean, why would he, you know, have ever listened to this podcast? But also that he was in the courtroom when John Lisp. Oh, my God.
He's just. He's a super gigantic murderino.
But he also was like, the assumption was we didn't know what he was talking about. It's just it wasn't a little like you've maybe never heard of this one and it's like trying either that or just i'm fucking telling this story and it's like oh i have some details too okay no you're right you're right one of which god damn i think about it literally once a week yeah is that john list did all of that because he was broke.
And meanwhile, in that mansion that he felt pressured to buy. Yeah.
There was a Tiffany glass ceiling. It was the glass ceiling.
Like a skylight. Yeah.
Or was it a light fixture? I can't remember. But either way, it was worth over $100,000 enough to get him out of debt.
Let me throw this in there. Okay.
Do you think, aka, I bet he still would have found something later to kill them all for? He would have sold that Skylighter light thing, used the $100,000. He still would have fucking killed them on something else.
I feel like a family annihilator, the problem isn't actually debt. No're right.
Yes. It's not getting out of debt and everything's fine and everyone's happy.
He wanted to and he found a way to do it. Yeah, there wasn't a magic key that was going to solve it.
And also just that the whole topic of family annihilators, it's so intense. It's so way out there, and it's crazy because now those stories are coming up more and more.
Yeah. And he, specifically this story is just so cold and calculated.
The whole cutting the face out of his face out of the pictures and just, I mean, it's just so sick. Are there any updates? I know he's dead, but anything more? He is here.
This is what's important. I've learned what a comptroller is.
Webster's Dictionary defines a comptroller as a management-level professional who oversees financial reporting and accounting. Also, while he was on the run, John took a job as a controller, which we also didn't understand or care about in the original story.
Turns out controllers work for private companies doing the exact same thing. Comptrollers work for governments and nonprofits doing that job.
So it turns out a man whose financial irresponsibility led him to murder his entire family actually worked in accounting. That was supposed to be his specialty.
Yeah. He can't do anything right.

The irony is everywhere with this John List story.

Also, the John List story is the America's Most Wanted element that makes it such a legendary true crime story.

Totally. And that his fucking new wife was sitting next to him and didn't recognize him.

Or just, you know, maybe something in her head did.

It's like a movie.

Can you imagine? Jesus. Can you imagine? is why conan loved the story so much uh okay it's time for georgia's story that she does on this episode about the death of warina right all right all.
What's yours?

So I have one that I learned about recently because it happened recently.

And we're going to, Karen, we're going to do a little play.

Okay.

This whole, this theme, what is this theme?

Drama.

Drama teachers.

All right.

You mean for this episode?

Yeah.

Yeah. The drama teachers episode.

All right.

So.

Warina Wright. W-A-R-R-I-E-N-A, Warina Wright, was 26 from New Zealand.

And she went to Queensland, Australia on July 29th, 2014 to celebrate a friend's wedding.

Checks into a motel on August 6th.

And then on the following day is like, let's see who's on tinder do you know this one no okay so she fucking tinder is beautiful girl she looks like a little bit a little gothy but not you know she's hot so she finds gable toasties tinder they he's this like hot ladies man. They meet up outside of a bar on the 6th.
I just want to say by the next morning, Warina will be dead after falling from his Gable's 14th floor balcony. That's how this goes.
That's not good.

Back to that night.

By 9 p.m.

They're in his apartment on the 14th floor.

Okay.

This beautiful building.

So somehow Gable, which is a great name, isn't it?

It's his first name.

First name?

I don't know.

I kind of like it.

For some reason he starts recording what's going on inside with a voice recorder police somehow extracted it from um like mobile phones that were found i think it was tried they tried to delete he tried to delete it it didn't happen they were able to get it so so there's um there's a whole uh there's a whole conversation that's recorded. And we're going to act it out.
Yeah. So I'm going to read.
Okay, I'm going to read. I highlighted your parts.
Okay. Oh, thank you.
You're Warina. I'm Gable.
But let me read it to you also. Okay.
So at 1 a.m., the sound recorder started. And it's later ceased, but the recording starts, music's heard, and 20 seconds into the recording, the man states, fuck me.
At 1.02 a.m., the man asks the female to chill and have a drink. And she says she is, I'm a psycho drunk, and do not test me.
Then at 1.05, between at 105, between 105 and 108, the pair talk about death. The male says, throw me off the balcony.
And that's it. This is it.
Boom. Then at 116 AM, there's laughing sounds are heard.
And sounds of hitting are heard as well. But the music continues to play in the background.

And that was scary.

It was a phone cue.

And there are soft sounds of groaning.

Okay.

At 1.29 a.m., the male says, I don't like getting beaten up.

At 1.36 a.m., the argument begins

when the female says she's leaving

and can't find her iPhone.

She says,

Are you going to fucking untie me?

Because I will fucking destroy your jaw.

Oh, my God.

And then Vince unlocked the door and scared the ever loving cannibal episode.

Same thing happened when you were talking about cannibals.

Hi, baby.

Oh, man. Elvis.
Vince April. Okay, you're going to untie me, blah, blah, blah.
So at 1.38, the man says, I should have never given you so much to drink. I thought we were going to have fun.
And then he asks her to calm down. At 1.41 a.m., the man asks the female to stay but says you're just a bit violent he offers to cook some food and the conversation calms down at 1 53 a.m drinks are more drinks are poured stop drinking you guys yeah what you already decided the drinking's bad yeah at 2 a.m the occupant of the apartment below is woken up by the noise.
At 2.10 a.m., in the audio recording, the male tells the female to relax and threatens to kick her ass. At 2.11 a.m., there's sounds of struggle.
A minute later, the sounds of rocks possibly being thrown in the apartment is heard. At 2.14, the man says, that's enough.

You've worn out your welcome.

You have to leave.

The female, out of breath, says, okay.

At 2.15 a.m., the man says, I thought you were kidding and I have taken enough.

This is fucking bullshit.

You're lucky I haven't chucked you off my balcony, you goddamn psycho little bitch.

At 2.16 a.m., the female, who is breathing heavily, accuses him of being a sex and then says lay off to which the male replies seriously what at 2 17 a.m the man says you're a goddamn psycho i'm going to let you go i'm going to walk you out of this apartment just the way you are you are not going to collect any of your belongings you are just going to walk out and i'm going to slam the door on you do you understand if you try and try and pull anything, I'll knock you out. Do you understand? The female says, I'm so sorry.
I don't care.

Okay. So the fall.
At 2.17 a.m., sounds of struggling and heavy breathing are heard. The man says, let go of it.
Let go. Let go.
Let go. At 2.18, the first choking sounds are heard.

Breathing slows. Male.
Let it go. Sounds of a metallic object dropping is heard.
At 220 a.m., a door unlocks and the female states, No. The sound of a glass door possibly being hit.
220, the man says, Who the fuck do you think you are, hey? The female says, No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. The male says, You tried to you tried to kill me huh well why did you try and hit me with that shut your filthy mouth the female i'm not gonna scream screams now but she's screaming no no no no no no the man says it's all on recording you know it's all being recorded the female a lot more knows just let me go home the male says i would but you've a bad girl.
And then the sounds are heard of a door slamming shut.

A police at this point alleged that,

um,

he left her out on the balcony,

misread on the balcony.

The female says,

just let me go home.

Just let me go home.

At 2 21 AM.

A female's final words are heard.

Let me go home.

Faint screaming is heard.

You look,

you're looking at me like I'm going to, it's horrible. Okay.
So put that down. All right.
So the occupant in the apartment below his, here's a female repeatedly shouting no, and then sees two legs dangling down. So what's going on right now is either she's crazy and drunk and jumping or she's terrified of this person and trying to get to the balcony below yeah so the witness says in a matter of seconds i saw the person fall from the balcony above mine oh at 221 a call is placed from Gable's phone to his lawyer.

The call doesn't connect.

At 223, a triple O, which I'm guessing is 911,

call is placed by the woman in the apartment below.

Police arrive at the scene.

And at the same time, the fob key to his apartment is activated.

Closed caption cameras capture a male believed to be Gable approaching the front entrance of the apartment and he walks back to the elevator and rides it to the basement. At 2.29, sounds of walking are heard in the audio recording, which is still going from earlier in the night.
So he has the phone or whatever he's using to record what's going on with him. Or in the apartment.
With him. With him.
He's like in the garage. So sorry, he's recording this entire evening? He's recording the whole thing.
And people said he might with him with him he's like in the in the so sorry he's

recording this entire evening he's recording the whole thing and people said he might have done it because he was like a creepy pervert and like to record these things or he took home a lot of women and this is a way to like assure that nothing oh you know just have it if they go crazy or if yeah either way either way it's sketchy. Yeah.

At 3.10 a.m. he orders a pizza.

What?

Yeah.

He says, a pizza of pizza supreme, please.

He orders a fucking slice of pizza.

At 3.23 a.m. a call is placed to his father.

He says, hello, dad.

I might have gotten a bit of a situation I met a girl for a date she started

getting aggressive um we kept drinking and I think she thought it was like a joke and she kept like

beating me up because she was really drunk and I forced her out on the balcony and I think she

might have jumped off and the dad says oh no um are you okay yeah so there's a million

Thank you. And I think she might have jumped off.
And the dad says, oh, no. Are you OK?

Yeah.

So there's a million cops walking around. I'm fucked up.
I don't have to do the. He says, I don't know.
I like I tackled her on my floor inside the building and I never forced her over the edge. so the dad picks him up and

eventually

he's arrested. And so, yeah, so he's claiming he's innocent.
She jumped. He has nothing to do with it.
He didn't push her over the edge. It's not murder.
He's set for trial on October 13th, 2016. But he's free right now.
he's um he's set for trial on august on october 13th 2016 but he's free right now he's out on bond and he he can't stop talking he's posting shit on like bodybuilders.com oh no he's just he's doesn't understand why people are blind he he has to be somewhat narcissistic yeah oh you mean like he needs to say his side of it is. Yeah.
But he's also saying things about how many women he's been with and he's never hurt them. So he's like bragging about that, how nice his apartment was, how well he does saying it's a witch hunt.
But they, but prosecutors think he could be convicted for murder because she was reportedly in fear of her life and was trying to flee him to the apartment below. Who says that? Those neighbors? The prosecutors say that.
Oh, okay. And I'm really interested.
I really like, not like, but I'm really interested in murder by suicide. I think it's really interesting.
Like there's that one case of, there was the, the road rage incidents on a bridge in Detroit. And this man was coming at the woman who had rear ended him and she jumped off the bridge to get away from him.
Yeah, that's that was actually a very famous, like one of the earliest law and orders. Really? Yes.
Wow. Yeah.
Well, and he was convicted of murder or maybe manslaughter because she just didn't know where else to go. It was just like trying to get away.
Yeah. But also the idea of recording an entire evening just to be sure in and of itself is suspicious to me.
Maybe. What do you need to be sure of that you have been in a position where this has been a problem for you? Or maybe just already was being a little crazy oh so he started the recording yeah not to i'm not victim blaming they were clearly very drunk well maybe he liked to record his his sex sex but but yeah you're right i mean like she the things that she's doing don't make a lot of sense.
It's not, it's not like it's, uh, it doesn't seem like she's the only victim at the beginning. Yeah.
It's not from what he's saying, but here's the thing. He's the only one who knows it's being recorded.
So what he's saying about her attacking him is very specific. And someone on like a Reddit said, or maybe on the Facebook page said, when my boyfriend was beating me up, he'd say, he'd yell, stop it.
What are you doing to me? Why are you doing this? To like get the neighbors to think that she was doing something to him or just to fuck with her in her mind. So it could be that.
It could just be in what it sounds like happened from when I read the transcript which i fucking stayed up all night reading it it was like it's so crazy is um you know they were having rough sex maybe she wasn't completely coherent she comes to and is freaked out by it and is trying to get out but doesn't know how and he's telling her to calm down because he tells her to calm down a couple times right i think at one point she realized what was happening and picked something up to throw at him and he gets so angry at that because you can hear him say like you've been a bad girl she's trying to defend herself he he's like i'm gonna have to lock you out on the balcony to like to um protect myself but she the whole time she's been the victim and she's freaking the fuck out oh and she's drunk and fucked up and so she thinks the best option is to go over the side of the edge and get to the balcony below which yeah that's like something from a movie it's like yeah it only works when stunt men do it yeah anyone in their right mind would never try that and so she clearly wasn't in her right mind and is there proof that we know that she if she drank like yeah i know people who are almost like allergic to alcohol where they have one drink and they're just like legless and out of their minds no i don't know it's not like that i don't know what her blood alcohol level was i don't know if they tested her for drugs maybe they're keeping all of that for the trial yeah it sounds like that's the story he's trying to push yeah with this recording yeah is like you've gone crazy but he's feeding her alcohol too yeah so even if it's like well look how drunk she was i mean his own recording is is gonna is gonna be the thing that convicts I feel like like well it's super weird to i can't imagine if something terrible happened at my house like horrifying like a person committed suicide i wouldn't be ordering pizza an hour later no i mean i wonder if he was so fucked up and didn't know what's going on it would be almost be like he would go lay down or something or go hide or you know like i don't think but also if you i mean this also it just immediately makes me think of the night of because the night of presents you the story where you completely i haven't watched that i have only watched the first episode okay but i mean in just in general you empathize with the person that they put in front of you. Right.
Because that's the story you're getting. Right.
Which is what happens a lot of the time is whoever gets a hold of that narrative. Yeah.
Then you go, oh, yeah, yeah. No, he would never do that.
He's so nice. Or whatever story.
Yeah. And what people present you.
And then the media. And then the shit that they talk about the other person yeah so in a way not to defend him i know i have no idea what's going on in this one this is crazy but it makes sense then that if he's kind of out on his own he's trying to control the narrative by tweeting things and posting shit on bodybuilders.com or whatever you said i mean like then like then he's, that's a person that's just scrambling and making mistakes.
Yeah. I feel like the harder you try to defend yourself on social media, the worse you seem, and the more people can pick it apart.
Yes, for sure. Because I mean, you know, web sleuths have gotten a hold of this.
The website web sleuths have gotten a hold of this and are like picking it apart and they think there's been some comments by by fake accounts he's made that just know too much about the details details oh shit yeah it's like he he's his own worst fucking enemy well and also he's he's paying a lot of attention to this, the process of this. Right.

Which is very strange.

Yeah.

It's going to be a hard one.

I feel like it's going to be a hard one.

So sorry,

this just happened days ago,

2014.

Oh,

oh,

okay.

But he's being,

I,

you know,

it's Australia.

So I don't know.

I feel like he's being indicted or there's going to be a trial to, to indict him on the,

on,

uh,

in October.

Oh,

okay.

Wow. From what I can tell from australian legal he's isn't that fucked up yeah it's poor the poor girl but this whole situation guys don't meet strangers on tinder not oh man i'm gonna get in trouble for slut shaming that's not slut shaming but it's so crazy that people just like Like's just dating though yeah but i mean like how about the girl that girl in santa monica that knew the guy for a year roof eater drank i mean bad things happen to people it just happens yeah you're right but this seems weird because you're the idea that a person is recording an entire evening evening and their foreknowledge of that recording and not telling the other person, there's a manipulation on the surface of that that's suspicious.
And to me, it's suspicious to say, I record this just in case something happens and I need to defend myself. but that's not an accurate defense because we can't see what's actually happening.
It's just your play lit. It's also weird at the very end when he was like, I'm I've been recording that like he uses it to throw it in her face somehow almost like you can't prove anything.
Yeah. You can't prove anything or like, why would he use that against her if he, you know,

if nothing had happened that he could call the cops for or press charges for?

Well, and also he never called the cops, right?

No.

And he didn't let her go either.

Like at one point she was like, I'm getting my shit and I'm leaving.

Where's my phone?

And he like stopped her from leaving.

Yeah.

So she was freaked out and wanted to leave too.

Both of them, you know. If you had a had a person this just we'll throw this out there if you had a person in your house you met on a tinder date so you don't know them you guys are drinking they get a little crazy you're you're the guy so they it's a girl that tries to beat you up so it's like painful irritating not yeah not life-threatening when they want to go what would be the why would you keep them there

yeah Like painful, irritating, not life-threatening. When they want to go, what would be the, why would you keep them there? Yeah.
Like if you're keeping a crazy person in your apartment, quote unquote so crazy, that you know you're making more problems. Yeah.
Like if you just go, yeah, get out. What are you trying to get out of the? If you want to keep the person who's crazy and abusive toward you.
Yeah. Around there, you're getting something out of it or it's not as it seems.
Right. Well, there's a third option that, I mean.
Abusive people, you know, it's the gaslighting technique where abusive people are like, why are you being so crazy? Like this isn't that big of a deal of a deal right and and the people who that works on it it works very well well and also you would get violent if you were like say tied up against your will or woke up whatever this scenario was where you would try your best to like what are what are the rocks that got thrown indoors i don't know what the rocks are i wonder if wonder if, I mean, I wonder if she was just almost incapacitated, almost incoherent. You know what I mean? Where it's like, you're not yet, you're just like, you're aware that you're in a situation that's not good because she's not forming complete sentences most of the time.
Yeah. She's just saying little things.
Right. That's right.
That's crazy. crazy i know and then you have to assume she was naked on the balcony too oh really i think so she's definitely barefoot but i don't i'm not sure if she's naked oh okay check that out i didn't i didn't think facts and That's fucked up, right? Yeah.
I've been thinking about that one for a lot, for a long time. Are you okay? I mean, no, no, no.
Those ones just make me keep on thinking about it. I know.
The idea of recording an evening is super insane to me. And also just like this weird day and age that we live in where like you could be recorded in any time.
Yeah. Like right now.
Oh, shit. Oh, my God.
Wait, what are these microphones doing in our faces? Okay, we're back. Whew.
Yeah, this one is so rough. Are there any case updates on this? Yeah, I have a couple case updates.
After a week-long trial in October of 2016, a Supreme Court jury in Brisbane acquitted Gable Totsi of both murder and manslaughter charges in the death of Lorena Wright. so we i had done this story before he had even gone to trial and he was acquitted and since then

tatsi has been going by a different name and his name has popped up in the news a few times since, usually tied to stories about his dating life or drinking habits and just like fuel his notoriety. and there's just some, you know, he gets into trouble.
It seems like it's just,

I want to know what really happened.

I don't know if we ever will that night, you know?

And so it's hard to be like, he got acquitted. So you want to be like, you don't want to talk shit on this person because what if he's not feeling? What if he's innocent? What if this whole thing was this terrible happenstance that was, I mean, all of it is just so baffling.
Yeah. And it's just like such a sad, tragic, unnecessary death of this young woman.
And that's really what it comes down to. Yeah, that's right.
That's right. So let's talk about the new title, because incredibly, we titled this 29 German Spelling of Nine.
But I bet I made that up. I don't remember.
But I don't think that would be something you suggested i really don't think i would have but yeah who's to say you know i mean it's who's to say literally uh but also it's just kind of like we're just trying to get this stuff done i wonder how much longer it is until we stop fucking naming things after numbers it's got to be pretty close if we're 29 is the fucking is all we got right we just were like we need a different a gimmick here please all right so if we were naming the episode today based on things we said in the episode we could call it happy clap which i love because that's what stephen does when karen talks about nico case which is the cutest I see Stephen sitting cross-legged on the floor doing his happy clap. His quiet sound guy happy clap.
Yeah. Also all the cookies, which is what Georgia says Elvis is with Vince because Vince gives him all the cookies.
Yeah. That's when we had to make Vince and the cats go in a different room, go in the one bedroom of my one bedroom apartment.
We were recording and he couldn't make a noise or come out or do anything. He was like, and also we were out there for an hour and 45 minutes most of the time.
We really were. And once in a while I'd scream, Vince, what was the name of that movie? Oh, that cute little apartment.
Prayers up to Vince Averill once again for being there from day one. Still doing it.
Still putting in his hours. He really is.
Thank you guys for listening to this episode of Rewind and for sticking with us and still being here. Yes, we rewind every Wednesday.
So come back and we'll be doing episode 30 next week. That's right.
And until then, stay sexy. And don't get murdered.

Goodbye.