Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 29: Twenty-Nein

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Speaker 1 Goodbye. No one brings out your inner monster like a bad neighbor.

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You will not want to miss this. Goodbye.
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Speaker 1 Hello.

Speaker 1 And welcome to Rewind with Karen and Georgia. You see, every Wednesday, we transport you to a simpler time back when the iPhone 7 was cutting edge and Suicide Squad dominated the box office.

Speaker 1 That's right. So join us as we take you back to August 11th, 2016, because now you can basically all be day one listeners.

Speaker 1 And today we're recapping episode 29, which at the time we named 29 with the German spelling of the word nine. 29,

Speaker 1 I think is how you pronounce it. Seems problematic to me in the light of 2025.
In the light of everything, everything is problematic. Yeah, that's very true.

Speaker 1 So let's listen to the intro to episode 29.

Speaker 1 Welcome to my favorite murder. That's Karen Kilgareth.
That is Georgia Hardstart. You know, no one can tell our voices apart still.
I know, it's pretty weird. Someone sent us a,

Speaker 1 I love when the true, the hometown murders are people sending in like.

Speaker 1 I know secret information about the case you already covered. Yes.
Because I know people from the whatever the fuck. We love that.

Speaker 1 And someone was like, last week sent us one it was like Karen I'm sorry to disappoint you but it was my case yeah I was like huh I'm sorry no we're sorry to disappoint you

Speaker 1 there's that happens a lot when people talk about I love when I think they say like Karen says oh my fucking God during when George is telling whatever it was it was like the reverse and I knew it was for sure because it was like one of your phrases yeah um Jesus fucking Christ but yeah I mean I just think it's precious it's so weird I feel like I mean, we're such different people.

Speaker 1 There was a fucking thing on Facebook that was like, are you a Karen or a Georgia? Did you see that? And it made me sad. Oh, no.
Why? Because I was like, no one has to be me. Were they both bad? No.

Speaker 1 Everyone loves you. And I'm not, I was just, everyone's like, I'm a Karen, but my best friend is a Georgia.
So that's fine.

Speaker 1 I'm a Karen. How do we, and then people were like, it's funny how people will explain to other people how you can tell the difference between us.
And it's that you sing everything. Yes.

Speaker 1 That's me. And I also have a scratchy voice because sometimes, sometimes late at night I smoke cigarettes.
You do not. Yeah, I do.
Do you, Karen? Yeah, sometimes.

Speaker 1 And you can tell, you can actually, you can tell how many I've been smoking because like right now I've been smoking. I don't know why I'm scandalized by this.

Speaker 1 Are you really because you never told me? And I feel like I thought we knew, I thought I knew you. No, I don't.
It's also because it's such a special thing that you do alone.

Speaker 1 I think it's wonderful that you have that time to yourself. Well, sometimes at my house, like I'm home at the end of the night.
You have a great backyard. What else are you going to use it for?

Speaker 1 I just sit in that backyard. Sometimes I just stick my feet right in that port.
Karen, you're living the life I want to live. It's pretty, I don't mind it, but it's also like.

Speaker 1 I'm tired and I don't get to drink anymore and I don't get to do anything anymore.

Speaker 1 So I'll just smoke a little hand-rolled bally shag cigarette. Do you hand the roll them yourself? Yeah.

Speaker 1 Karen, this is why everyone wanted to be you.

Speaker 1 Because I'm so fucking European. They were saying, like, Karen's a badass, and I want to be.
I think it's because I'm scared of everything and talk about therapy.

Speaker 1 All it is is, is you are honest about your anxieties. And I'm always like, just try to kill me, which is the most insane thing.

Speaker 1 Every once in a while, it'll hit me where I'm like, oh, I've actually said that out loud.

Speaker 1 Permanently, these recordings are permanent. There's nothing we can do about it.

Speaker 1 And I've actually been like, I don't care. When the end days come,

Speaker 1 there's going to be no record of this, so it doesn't matter. When what happens? The end days come.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. This is all going to be wiped off.
Well, the grid's going to go down.

Speaker 1 And it won't matter what's recorded because we won't be able to access it. Delta is the first fucking, is the first

Speaker 1 airplane line that'll go down? No, it just went down like yesterday. Delta.

Speaker 1 They had like a blackout

Speaker 1 at their main hub and everything was grounded. And it's like...
Across the country? Yeah, they're like, there was just a glitch. And you're like, bullshit.
Bullshit.

Speaker 1 Whenever I hear those things, and I was like, someone, there was just a glitch. No way.
Uh-uh. Don't even.
No. There was, that was the lizard men that are underneath the Denver airports.

Speaker 1 Yes, they are. They're down there and they're fucking with the mainframe.
Man. Don't even.
How much did you love as soon as I heard this on Stranger Things that they had a fucking

Speaker 1 MK Ultra line? Like

Speaker 1 silly line. Did you watch it all? No, I think I have like two left or three left.
Have you been to the possible 11s mom's house yet?

Speaker 1 No,

Speaker 1 yes, they mention MK Ultra.

Speaker 1 That's why she's like that. Yeah, because she was one of the people they were experimenting on.
Has anyone listened to this? I don't want to, I don't want to spoil anything. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 Spoilers.

Speaker 1 Okay, I missed that detail. I just thought.
They say MK Ultra in it. Holy shit.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 Oh, that makes me like it 1000 times more yeah

Speaker 1 okay i have to go back and get through i have to on be honest when i binge watch shows especially on netflix and you just can like it hit enter on the blue box and you just keep going there'll be times where i just fall asleep and i don't even know which one i'm on i just wake up and keep watching whatever's on i have the kind of insomnia that you can't fall asleep in front of television i've never fallen as asleep in front of maybe wrestling that's vince's fault wow we couldn't be more different that's That's how I fall asleep every night.

Speaker 1 It's very bad for you to sleep in front of the TV. Well, now I wonder how bad it is.

Speaker 1 I can't fall asleep now without listening to the Sleep With Me podcast. Oh, that's like I can't.
You're his slave? I'm his slave. Oh,

Speaker 1 so I wonder if someday they're going to be like, it's worse than falling asleep to TV because he's infiltrating my dreams. That's right.
Well, if he is from NKUltra, you're screwed. Oh, yeah.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 If he is. He's okay with it.
Do you think he... He's so great.
You're fine with it. I'm fine with it.
Whatever his agenda might be.

Speaker 1 Like same with Elvis when everyone, anyone is like, oh, you know, you get a virus from cats and it takes over your brain and makes you a zombie. And I'm like, I don't care.

Speaker 1 He's so cute. He's so nice.
He's so sweet. If he thinks I need to be a zombie, then I'll, you know, he knows what's best for me.
Sure, absolutely. Yeah.

Speaker 1 And also, you know, you're going to go, whether you're a zombie for a cat or you get hit by a bus, you are going to leave this earthly plane.

Speaker 1 So just accept it. Yeah.
His head smells like a library book.

Speaker 1 The girl who was in love with her cat.

Speaker 1 Yvette. All right.

Speaker 1 Do you have housekeeping? I have a housekeeping that makes me very happy. Oh, good.

Speaker 1 Because it's a two-fold housekeeping. It was a tweet that my hero, Nico Case, singer-songwriter, Nico Case, tweeted.
You got a tiny little happy clap from Steven just now. Yay!

Speaker 1 We love her. We love Nico Case.

Speaker 1 Don't tell me that the connection was lost and there was a loading error phone. No.
Well, basically, she retweeted

Speaker 1 this story, I'm pretty sure it was from the CBC, about how their government, the Canadian government, is now opening an investigation on all the missing Indigenous women in Canada.

Speaker 1 So that's like all the women. So, you know, like Robert Picton, I'm going to eventually do one on him if you don't beat me to it.
He's the pig farmer in Canada that was just murdering women.

Speaker 1 And I think it was in the hundreds. Did he feed?

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 It's a bad one. It's so

Speaker 1 dark. It's yours.
Okay. Because it's too dark.

Speaker 1 It's too

Speaker 1 something for me, but I don't know what yet. Too many pigs.
Too many pigs, man. No, it's just, um.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I don't know. Well, so there's.
It's too making a murderer. Oh, okay.
In a lot of different ways. Go ahead.

Speaker 1 Well, there's just a, there's been a bunch of, and this is very, in America, I think our version of it is women of color, black women that get murdered. And it's just as if no one talks about it.

Speaker 1 You see, all the little blonde girls are always on the news if they go missing or are murdered. But it doesn't happen with black women.
And so the Canadian version, I think, is Indigenous women.

Speaker 1 Indian women is the incorrect term for it. But so there's the Highway of Tears where women go disappearing on it.
Robert Picton, they named another guy that I didn't recognize the name.

Speaker 1 I hope Picton is the right last name. You know what? I won't do a mass murderous because I feel like I won't give enough time to each of the women.

Speaker 1 I'd rather do this is what the victim was, who the victim was, their story. Right.

Speaker 1 Then here's who the murderer was. And it's like, and there's 19 women.
Right. Yeah, no, then that's this is bad.
That's yours. But anyway, it's it.
It's like hundreds of

Speaker 1 Indigenous women have gone missing in the last, say, if I could open this article, I would, God, I would be accurate with it. Sorry.
But no, that's okay. Do you want to pause?

Speaker 1 I can give you my Wi-Fi connection.

Speaker 1 I know every time you get upset, let's pause it. No, no, no, no, no, no, it's fine.

Speaker 1 Because the general idea is just what Nico Case was trying to get the word out about, and I retweeted it on our Twitter feed as well, is just the government is trying to do something about it.

Speaker 1 They're trying to find the women. They're trying to investigate the murders.

Speaker 1 They're trying to actually put a focus and say, these women are important, just as important as anybody else, and we're going to do something about this, which is humongous, That a country, like on the whole, would just admit that they haven't up until this point, and now they're going to.

Speaker 1 That's incredible. It's really great.
That's amazing. It's very hopeful to me about like this.
It feels like a new era in crime. Thank you.

Speaker 1 Oh, the name of the article is just how an unflinching gaze on missing and murdered indigenous women might move Canada forward. Incredible.
Very cool. And I was right, it was the CDC News.

Speaker 1 I'll take it. If it's even that small, I will take an accuracy moment.
I will not take it away from you. Thank you.
I appreciate it. That's, I mean, that's really the whole story.

Speaker 1 I'm still trying to think of a way that we can donate part of the proceeds or like help some way with the untested rape kit situation.

Speaker 1 Marshka, Marishka. Mariska Hargite.
Thank you.

Speaker 1 I want to give her all my money and like do it. Help her.

Speaker 1 Georgia was in a manic manic episode, and Karen she gave a multi-millionaire all her money. And Karen totally was like, do it.

Speaker 1 So, so Georgia's suing Karen. I think that's a,

Speaker 1 and it all ends in a lawsuit between you and I. Oh, I didn't see that coming.
Because of my undiagnosed manic department. No, I don't have that.
We call it the big giveaway. Georgia really just.

Speaker 1 No, no, no. I think that's a really good idea.
I would love the proceeds of something that we earn money for because this podcast goes to those untested Well, we have live shows.

Speaker 1 Like, you guys were in the fucking process of like

Speaker 1 having live shows be a part of our lives. Yeah.
And a part of your lives, Texas. Yeah.
We're going to invite people. Texas, what? We got some numbers back.
That was a brag.

Speaker 1 But we got some numbers back. And hey, Texas, turns out you like us.
I was so surprised by that. We both started laughing so hard, but it makes sense.
Yeah. That's Texas.
Texas has some good murders.

Speaker 1 Texas knows what they're talking about in terms of murder.

Speaker 1 Can I just say that once we got all this, we got all this information about our numbers and then we were driving home and we almost had to pull over to start crying with how happy we both were with how well this is, how like, how, what a great.

Speaker 1 It's pretty nice. It's pretty great.
It's pretty nice that we're getting popular because we talk about death. Yeah.
I think that's lovely. I love you guys.
Thanks for listening. Okay.

Speaker 1 I also want to say really quickly. that

Speaker 1 in therapy, in therapy, one of the things I talked about was that um, how crazy I am and how much anxiety I have because when I go to the back of my building to do laundry, I lock my front door.

Speaker 1 And how crazy is that that I think someone's going to break in? And then I read an article, there's a fucking Echo Park rapist.

Speaker 1 And one of the ways he got into her house was when she was doing fucking laundry in the back of her apartment, and she left her door unlocked and went in. There is,

Speaker 1 it's, it's not anxiety when you're just being careful. I texted my therapist in the article and said, in your face, bitch.
No, because she was like, you know, yeah.

Speaker 1 now she doesn't want to see me anymore and now she said find someone else no she because she was like you know we're allowed to take certain precautions and that's okay and you can do that but when you start you know blah blah blah then it's so she supported it and i was like i feel so justified uh well also that's good i mean jesus christ good to know right yes

Speaker 1 hey there's there's no shame in locking things double i lock people will walk by in the crosswalk and they're part of my brain goes they might be able to hear it if you lock the door or whatever.

Speaker 1 And it's like, I don't give a shit. It doesn't matter.
Much louder voice that says, Sorry to offend you, but you don't get to, in case you had the idea,

Speaker 1 maybe you're on some white drug idea. So, like, when you're sitting at a stop sign and someone goes to walk by and you go click to lock your car door.
Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1 You're like, oh, they're going to get mad at me. Fuck you.
Well, because you look creepy. That's a good way to let someone know they're like creepy.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I get the idea because you're giving me the eyes. Yeah.
So, yeah.

Speaker 1 Don't

Speaker 1 we've said this a million times. Fuck politeness.
Fuck politeness.

Speaker 1 Yeah. There could be new listeners who don't yet know to fuck politeness.
Oh, yeah. Fuck politeness.
And

Speaker 1 well, you'll learn. There's a ton of stuff.
You'll have a lot of experiences in your life that'll make you

Speaker 1 question.

Speaker 1 How about if you're going between the laundry room and your house, lock your goddamn door? Lock your fucking door.

Speaker 1 If you live in a major city. or not at your parents' house, lock your door.
It feels really good because literally that was a worry every single time I walk out back.

Speaker 1 Is I come in the door and I check for the cats because if the cats were still out where they were, that meant no one was in there.

Speaker 1 But if they were hiding, that would mean someone came in the house. Right.
That's crazy. No, it's not.
That's a good theory. That's a theory based on observation.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 And we're back. Hey, if you're still listening from Texas, thank you.
Yeah, thanks.

Speaker 1 Incredible. What a miracle.
Texas was there in the beginning. They were there hard for us.
They do that. They do everything a little hard.

Speaker 1 Yeah, they're like, they rep and they're there.

Speaker 1 That made me think of, wasn't it in Texas, I believe, Dallas, when the women got into our van to go to the theater?

Speaker 1 And then

Speaker 1 the driver was just like, yeah, no, they just thought it was like one of the Ubers or something. And the driver was just like, yeah, I guess these are the podcasts.
Two girls. Yeah, that was.

Speaker 1 They were like, and then we met them as as they were returned to the hotel and returned to the like to not being us.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 And they were very funny. Yeah.

Speaker 1 That's Texas to me. That's Texas in my heart.
That was a beautiful night. That's so funny that that was the beginning of, are you a Karen? Are you a Georgia? I know.

Speaker 1 That was like our, the BuzzFeed days.

Speaker 1 Crazy. Oh, yeah.

Speaker 1 1,000 years ago. That was a BuzzFeed quiz.
So exciting. Like, this is when everything was just like popping off in a really unexpected, insane way.

Speaker 1 Like, we just didn't know what the hell was happening. We really didn't.
We thought it was kind of funny. And as I've said a thousand times, I thought it was going to wrap up in three to five weeks.

Speaker 1 And you never covered Robert Picton, which I think is a good thing, right?

Speaker 1 I do too. I was going to, remember that show we did, the first time we did a show in Vancouver? I was going to cover him at that Vancouver show.

Speaker 1 Remember, we were in that high-rise hotel that was like, we had like, we were on the 18th floor or something. We had these amazing views.
Wasn't I sick?

Speaker 1 And so I was an hour late because I was napping and just like didn't put the time correct because I was like,

Speaker 1 because I was like literally had a cold on stage. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yes. There was also one also in Vancouver where I went downstairs and couldn't find where Vince was meeting us.

Speaker 1 So you were on one side of the hotel and I was on the other and I could not figure out where you were. Yeah.
Do you remember that one where it's like everything was like this this weird delay.

Speaker 1 Everyone's just like,

Speaker 1 what's going on? That's what touring is. It's just a delay to get to a place to wait.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 To do homework. Right.
And not look at anything about the city. And then have 3,000 people cheer for you.
So. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Did you see this update that Robert Picton was murdered in prison just this past June? Right. Yeah.
Wow. I mean, not a surprise.
He's one of the worst serial killers of all time.

Speaker 1 He is one of the worst predators of women and marginalized women.

Speaker 1 And like that story and all of that corruption around that story is so fucking dark that when I went to do it in Vancouver, like, oh, this is your guy's hometown. It's like,

Speaker 1 nobody wants to, nobody wants to recount basically

Speaker 1 this kind of like internal corruption that allows.

Speaker 1 women with no voice to just be brutalized over and over and over. No.
There's a few of these murders that I feel like we'll never do, and we've talked about it. This is one of them,

Speaker 1 the Speed Free Box. Toy Box Killer, the Speed Free Killers, and then Charles Ng, I feel like we'll never do.
Just because like you read it and it's just, there's just, it's just an empty

Speaker 1 pit of fucking horribleness.

Speaker 1 I think too, it's like, that's how you kind of learn the shape of when you're doing a podcast. It's like we very early on understood that we were going to do this podcast our way.

Speaker 1 You know, for example, talking for 45 minutes at the beginning about everything but true crime, et cetera, et cetera.

Speaker 1 But like, just because to follow the pattern of standardized true crime is like, is a very difficult those shows that do it that are actually journalist-led and thoroughly researched and are like are invaluable.

Speaker 1 Passion, yeah. Yes.
But it's like, just to retell these stories is

Speaker 1 it's just the darkness is tough. Yeah.
You need something more than that, for sure. Especially in a quarantine, for example.
Right. Right.
Which we were in for quite a while, if I remember correctly.

Speaker 1 Yeah. We were in for quite a while.
Real quick, before we get into your story, we did mention Marissa Hargitay's nonprofit. It's still going on.
It's called the Joyful Heart Foundation.

Speaker 1 And since 2004, Joyful Heart has been a leading national organization with a mission to transform society's response to sexual assault, domestic violence, and child abuse, support survivors' healing, and end this violence forever.

Speaker 1 Yes, you can donate or learn more about the Joyful Heart Foundation by going to joyfulheartfoundation.org. I mean, I think Mariska Hargate is like...

Speaker 1 It's a legend now for having played Olivia Benson on SVU for years and years and then basically turning all of that work into

Speaker 1 this activism that's really been very effective. And like, it's just the coolest.
She's the coolest. Yeah.
And hey, while we're here, let's

Speaker 1 donate 10 grand to the Joyful Heart Foundation. Love it.
Great idea. Cool.
How do you get these ideas? It's just, they just come into my mind. I don't even know how.

Speaker 1 Speaking of ideas coming from nowhere, let's listen to your epic story. This is like a classic

Speaker 1 Karen telling the story of John List.

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Speaker 1 So I've known about this one for a long time because it was made famous by that great American television show, America's Most Wanted. Hell yeah.

Speaker 1 Do you remember the America's Most Wanted about John List, the man who killed his entire family and then disappeared for 19 years? Yes. Yes, you do.
Fuck yes.

Speaker 1 Well, that's my favorite murder for this week. Let me hear it.
I'm going to tell you all about it. All right.
So John List. was a successful businessman.
He was a devout, lifelong Lutheran.

Speaker 1 He was a Sunday school teacher. He was a Boy Scout leader, a husband, a father of three.
His family lived with his mother, so their grandmother, in a sprawling 19-room mansion called Breeze Knoll

Speaker 1 in Westfield, New Jersey. But behind closed doors, things were not going well.
Shocking. This is me kind of trying to write like a, you know, 2020 version of this.
This is, this is a narrative.

Speaker 1 This is, I'm really trying to put something into this, and it might not really work out that well because it's it feels a bit sweaty right now i feel like i'm trying well it's hot in here it also is very hot

Speaker 1 it's summer in los angeles

Speaker 1 so john lifts list's wife helen which they didn't none of this you knew from america's most wand oh i love this stuff tell me his wife helen was an alcoholic who was verbally abusive and unstable she sounds fun when you see the picture of the list family her eyes are going in two different directions was she dressed well though yes

Speaker 1 it was the picture, I think, was from like the mid-60s. So they look like any family.
Oh, my God. I just picture her at like a party, and she's just drunk, and like, but she looks amazing.
Yes.

Speaker 1 I love it. Like, she's got like a Jackie O outfit on, but her face is like, is just like kooky eyes and like bubbles above her head.
She's like talking loudly about their bedroom secrets.

Speaker 1 Oh, yeah, girl, you just nailed it. Shut up.
Okay. Ready?

Speaker 1 Oh, my God. So

Speaker 1 she had demanded that

Speaker 1 John buy her her that colonial mansion in Westfield, which is a very ritzy, apparently town in New Jersey, or was in the 60s and 70s

Speaker 1 when John landed his high status position as bank vice president and comptroller, which is one of my favorite words in the English language. So good.
Comptroller. I don't know what it means.

Speaker 1 I love to say it. I'm running for comptroller this

Speaker 1 year.

Speaker 1 Okay. So what no one knew is that John had recently been fired from being the bank president and comptroller.
Stress. And

Speaker 1 he, even though he was an ambitious career man, could never hold a job for more than a couple of years because of his personality problems, personality issues, quote unquote. Oh, my God.
Uh-huh.

Speaker 1 But he couldn't let his family know that he'd gotten fired. So every day he got up and he put on his suit and he grabbed his briefcase and he went to the train station like he was going to work.

Speaker 1 Those people terrify me. Yes.
It's such deep denial. It's insane denial of like, da-da-da, everything's fine.

Speaker 1 And then there's crazy things boiling underneath. Fuck those, those people, man.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 So he would sit at the train station and read newspapers all day until it was time to quote unquote come home for work. Holy shit.
Right.

Speaker 1 And meanwhile, he was skimming money off of his mother's bank account so he could pay his crazy mortgage on his colonial 19-room mansion.

Speaker 1 And all all the other bills are piling up. So

Speaker 1 in short, John List was Lutheran fuck up under pressure. That's what I wrote.

Speaker 1 That's good. So here's his plan.
He, on the morning of November 9th, 1971, after his children had left for school,

Speaker 1 John walked into the kitchen where his wife was drinking her morning coffee at the kitchen table, and he walked up and he shot her in the back of the head with a nine millimeter handgun. Wow.

Speaker 1 Then he went upstairs to the third floor of their mansion where his mother had her own, like, what are the suite? Yes, her own little apartment. Wing? Wing.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 A wing of the mansion. And he shot her in the head right over her left eye, which to me sounds like he shot her face to face.
Oh, yeah. Which is pretty intense.
Jesus. Then he drove to the bank.

Speaker 1 and he closed his account and his mother's accounts and he cashed in his mother's savings bonds.

Speaker 1 He came home, he went to his study, he collected some old photos and documents concerning the mansion's history, and he put them in a neat pile on his desk, and he composed a letter, a thank you letter to John Whitkey, who was a descendant of the original owner of the house.

Speaker 1 You know, the important stuff. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 And then he also wrote four other letters. He called Barbara Bader, who was the woman who carpooled his sons, John and Fred, to Roosevelt Junior High School.

Speaker 1 And she had done that for the last time that morning. Oh, my God.
He made an excuse that the whole family was leaving to go to North Carolina the next morning because Helen's mother was extremely ill.

Speaker 1 And he promised that he would let her know when they were coming back.

Speaker 1 Then he canceled the newspaper milk delivery and he asked the post office to hold the mail until further notice.

Speaker 1 Was there going to be further notice? Absolutely not. No.

Speaker 1 So now it was lunchtime. So he made himself a lunch.
No. Sat down at the table where he had just shot his wife and then cleaned up the blood off the table.
Bologna or cold meatloaf?

Speaker 1 I would guess bologna because he's just like, he's all business. He just wants to get proteins and calories.
Bologna on white with mustard. With mustard only.

Speaker 1 And some, do they have potato chips back then? I would think John List would eat potato chips.

Speaker 1 I think he would eat two sandwiches instead of having a delicious side. Oh my god, Karen, that was the best.
That was what I was looking for. Because I love food details.

Speaker 1 That's my opinion of John List's food details. Yeah, that was beautiful.
Yeah. That's the kind of stuff I can't understand that.
Like, that's such a dude move. Oh, yeah.

Speaker 1 Where I'm like, you could have chips, the only thing you want with a sandwich. Yeah.
Or

Speaker 1 double down. Pickle slices.
Pickles are nice. Yeah.
But I always, you know, me and the starches. Oh, right.
Well, sure. Everyone can starch.
But you just don't keep them in your house.

Speaker 1 I don't eat them all. That's right.
I mean, not you. One.
One. So

Speaker 1 then he went around and cut himself out of every family photo in the entire house. Why is that the craziest part?

Speaker 1 That is, to me, I did it as a standalone because it's the creepiest fact to me in this whole case.

Speaker 1 It's so fucking creepy. That is so creepy.
Then

Speaker 1 come, now it's early afternoon. So he's waiting for his children to come home from school.

Speaker 1 Patricia, who was 16, a drama nerd,

Speaker 1 and it was 1971. So she had been caught smoking pot.

Speaker 1 Oh, she was the coolest. She was cool.
And she came home. He shot her in the back of the head.
Honey. Then his son, Frederick, the youngest, who was 13, came home.
He shot him in the back of the head.

Speaker 1 So they didn't even know that their father.

Speaker 1 No, and he actually in the court later revealed that he did it. his wife and his kids back of the head so that they didn't know what happened.
But mom is a different story.

Speaker 1 His mother was a different story, which is very telling to me. Let's get to it.
Yeah, tell me more. But then, also, John Jr.
is a different story.

Speaker 1 The 15-year-old who was named after him and supposedly his favorite, there was a couple different versions of this.

Speaker 1 Some said he just came straight home from school, but the one I like the best, which is the one I will tell, is that he had a soccer game that day.

Speaker 1 So, John Liss drove to the school, watched his son's soccer game, drove him home, tried to shoot him, but he some maybe saw the gun and freaked out.

Speaker 1 So he ended up shooting him in the face and chest over 10 times.

Speaker 1 Whoa. So overkill, crazy fucking overkill.
Yeah. And knew what was happening as it went.
Once in the chest and once in the face, I get something went worse than wrong or he hated him more.

Speaker 1 Like something went especially wrong for 10 times. Yes.
Because this was a man that was doing it like

Speaker 1 neatly and cleanly and pretending systematically. He was like checking off a list.
Sure. But when it came, this guy wasn't, John Jr.
didn't play ball and made it hard for him.

Speaker 1 And I think that's like the rage came up. Oh, yeah.
Like, how dare you? You're making this too hard for me. Not even like, you're showing me how, what horrible I am.
No, no, no.

Speaker 1 You're, you're ruining my plan. You're ruining my good time.
Oh, my God. It's hideous.

Speaker 1 So then he dragged, he got sleeping bags from down from the basement and he put all the bodies on the sleeping bags then dragged them into the back of the house

Speaker 1 to what room

Speaker 1 the ballroom

Speaker 1 Yes. Yeah, they had a ballroom in this mansion that wasn't even decorated or furnished in any way.
That's how big this house was.

Speaker 1 And so he pulled his wife and three children's dead bodies on sleeping bags back into the ballroom. He put a piece of cloth over each of their faces

Speaker 1 and he left them there, turned it into basically like a makeshift morgue. Then he fed the children's pet fish in the 20-gallon tank in the dining room.
What? Went upstairs and went to sleep.

Speaker 1 Holy shit. Yeah.
So he's,

Speaker 1 are the fish okay? That's the kind of thought this man is having. Are the fish okay? Is this, I mean, as much as because I need to put a name on things, is this sociopath?

Speaker 1 Oh, I'm, we'll talk about the name later, but I, he probably, I mean, I don't know enough. Anytime it's like, clearly, you have no feelings.
Yeah. That's what I want to label it as.

Speaker 1 Me too, but yeah, it's almost like that. But he is, the real term for this guy is a family annihilator.

Speaker 1 Yeah. And it's like a thing that happens, and there's a couple of different kinds.
And they'll never kill anyone else again, kind of a thing. Yes, right.
It's, it's a situational

Speaker 1 thing for them. Yeah, tell me more.
Okay. So the next morning, he gets up, he gets dressed, he goes downstairs, he turns the thermostat all the way down

Speaker 1 he turns on every light in the house

Speaker 1 and then he leaves the house and he leaves westfield forever now the weird thing is no one noticed of course no one in the neighborhood noticed that this family was not there and that's because they this family did not socialize which is kind of common if you have a crazy drunk mom like they stayed in they didn't talk to anybody the neighbors knew John List as the guy who mowed his lawn in a suit and tie.

Speaker 1 Jesus, I think the most suspicious part would be that all the lights are on. That's right.
You know what I mean? Yeah. Like nobody, especially in a 19-room mansion.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 You're like, sorry, nobody's in the greenhouse. Nobody's in the brightest house on the block.
It's they're not having a party.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 because of all this careful planning and because they were basically antisocial and reclusive,

Speaker 1 it took a full month for anybody to actually discover these bodies. A month? A full month.

Speaker 1 So the neighbors noticed that these lights were on day and night and that they were always on and that they started burning out. And that's when they started getting suspicious.
Oh, that's creepy.

Speaker 1 Can you imagine something like one room is out? And then the next room is out. Yeah, and never comes back on.

Speaker 1 And no one's coming in or out of the house.

Speaker 1 So something super creepy is happening up there but also you don't want to think about it because what could it be that would be that weird yeah but who does

Speaker 1 this is the most cinematic i think of all the stories because patty's drama teacher is the one who's like i don't like the smell of this oh my god his name was edwin ileano

Speaker 1 And he thought it was weird that the entire family was gone that long. And also,

Speaker 1 he had a terrible feeling because Patty once told him, if this family goes on vacation, my dad has killed us. I knew she talked to him about something.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 She said that? She said it to him. So

Speaker 1 after, you know, 28 days, oh, and he'd also met him once and thought he was super weird. Oh, my gosh.

Speaker 1 So after 28 days, Edwin Ileano convinces his associate, Barbara Sheridan, to go to the house with him to check on Patty.

Speaker 1 And they drive up there.

Speaker 1 They try to look into some windows and their being there makes the neighbors call the cops because they see people finally on the property.

Speaker 1 And when the cops show up,

Speaker 1 Edwin explains to them, it's oh, the neighbors William and Shirley Cunnock are their names. They're the ones that call the police.

Speaker 1 And patrol officers George Zhelznick and Charles Heller were the first to arrive. So Ileano explains what's going on, and the officers decide they're going to force open a window and go inside.

Speaker 1 And when they open that window, they're hit with the smell of death. Thank you.

Speaker 1 So I forgot, this might be my creepiest detail. Oh, good.
When they go into the house, the first thing they notice is that there's organ music playing loudly over the house intercom. I'm going to cry.

Speaker 1 I'm going to cry because there's an intercom in this house. Hey, and because there's organ music.
So you're jealous of the intercom? Yeah, because that's so cool. Yeah.

Speaker 1 And organ music is the creepiest thing I've ever heard. John List set up, they kept calling it a recorder in all these articles that I read.

Speaker 1 When you do research, you realize everyone rips everybody off. It's hilarious.
Insane. So calling something a recorder makes no sense.

Speaker 1 It sounds like it's the instrument children play in grammar school. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Which would be even creepier. Just a child playing the recorder really loud.
Or it's like, oh, God, no. Okay, I was going to go deep.
Go on.

Speaker 1 He had set up a thing that just played this music. on a loop until you physically turned it off and then set it to play over the intercom.
What was like an old machine or something? I guess so.

Speaker 1 I mean, they call a recorder, maybe a recording device or like a reel-to-reel.

Speaker 1 Yeah, that sounds right. Because it was 71.
It's built bad.

Speaker 1 So,

Speaker 1 oh, I said two things organ music is good for: ice skating and mass murdering. See, it's I'm trying too hard now.

Speaker 1 Need to keep it conversational. So, upstairs in the study, they find a five-page letter that List had written to his pastor, Eugene Renwinkle.
Renwinkle.

Speaker 1 Sorry.

Speaker 1 I don't know.

Speaker 1 It's like bad writing.

Speaker 1 What should we name the old pastor of the Lutheran church? Eugene Renwinkle? Oh my God, I love it.

Speaker 1 So, in that letter, he said he felt the 70s were a sinful time and that his family was beginning to succumb to temptation, especially his daughter, because of her interest in acting, which is an occupation that List viewed as being particularly corrupt and linked to Satan, which is true.

Speaker 1 He fucking slayed them all. What the?

Speaker 1 Yeah, so the holy religious thing to do is kill everybody.

Speaker 1 John. So it was like, he thought it was like a mercy killing.
That's exactly right.

Speaker 1 He saw too much evil in the world. He'd killed his family to save their souls.
That's very nice of you, you fucking dick.

Speaker 1 And also, how giving. Now, he said he didn't kill himself because.
Yeah, yeah, well, let's hear it. He didn't kill himself because

Speaker 1 suicide is a mortal sin that would definitely bar him from heaven as opposed to murdering five people where you're still in a gray area that can be negotiated. What are you talking about?

Speaker 1 Narcissism, extreme narcissism, sociopathy.

Speaker 1 Definitely narcissism. I don't think the sociopath thing might not apply only because

Speaker 1 this is the one-off. People get mad at it.
People get mad.

Speaker 1 It's a five-off. Sorry.
It's a five-off. Okay.
We're not saying all narcissists are murderers. Right.

Speaker 1 that but however this is an extreme case of narcissists yeah it's a it's an element in this personality disorder yeah uh i'm a narcissist i've never killed anybody except for in comedy

Speaker 1 boo

Speaker 1 okay okay uh later a reporter who covered the trial described hearing this letter when it was read aloud in court and he said quote i'll never forget the audible sigh of shock from the jury and spectators when the last line of list's red or letter was read P.S.

Speaker 1 Mother is in the hallway in the attic, third floor. She was too heavy to move.
Oh my god. Dang.
That's your mom. Yeah.
It's like a moving, like a moving box that you just couldn't. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Someone take care of that upstairs. Like, it's your mother? Do you think you might have had a slight problem with her? Yeah.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 1 So.

Speaker 1 A nationwide manhunt is launched, but he's got a month

Speaker 1 lead time.

Speaker 1 He's way ahead. Police investigated hundreds of leads without success.
All reliable photographs of List had been destroyed.

Speaker 1 So it wasn't, I was creeped out. Turns out it was kind of like creeper smart.
Yeah. Oh,

Speaker 1 I didn't catch on to that.

Speaker 1 I did not either.

Speaker 1 The family car was found at Kennedy Airport, but there was no evidence he had boarded a flight. He was gone and would remain gone for 18 years.
Wow. Then on May 21st, 1989,

Speaker 1 forward into the 80s,

Speaker 1 the murders were recounted on America's Most Wanted, which at the time had been on the air less than a year. Oh my God.

Speaker 1 And it featured an age-progressed,

Speaker 1 age-progressed, sorry, age-progressed clay bust sculpted by the forensic artist Frank Bender. And it turned out to bear an almost exact resemblance to List's appearance.

Speaker 1 Maybe I'm making this up, but I fucking remember seeing this. No, you remember because I'm about to hold up a picture to to you.
Oh, oh, I'm so excited.

Speaker 1 All right. Oh, my God.
Oh, my God. I was nine, so I was like old enough to remember this.
Yes, and this was, I remember it, I was 19. Oh, grandma and baby.

Speaker 1 Bender consulted a forensic psychologist and created a psychological profile of List. He looked at photographs of List's parents and predicted what he would look like as he aged.
Holy shit.

Speaker 1 He gave him a receding hairline and sagging jaws. Bender was particularly lauded for one final touch he added to his completed artwork.
It was a pair of glasses.

Speaker 1 Bender believed List would not be vain enough to wear contact lenses. However, he said List would have worn a pair of glasses different from those he wore before the murders.

Speaker 1 He said they would be a pair with thick, dark frames.

Speaker 1 He and the psychologist theorized that List would do this to hide, in a sense. He would want to disguise the fact that he was a failure and appear more important than he really was.
Holy shit.

Speaker 1 So he put these big old glasses. Remember that? Dude, I remember that.
This is real John List. Oh, yeah.
And this is that sculpture. Holy fuck.
It's fucking like exact. Oh my God.

Speaker 1 You guys look this up right now. Look, Steven.
Isn't that crazy?

Speaker 1 We'll put it on social media.

Speaker 1 I'll put this on our Insta. But this, Frank Bender nailed it.
So literally, less than two weeks later,

Speaker 1 they got a ton of calls, but less than two weeks later, they find him in Virginia. Wow.

Speaker 1 And the hilarious part is in the court,

Speaker 1 John Liss reveals he was watching the show that night with his new wife. And he was quoted as saying, I was perspiring like anything, but his wife didn't recognize him.

Speaker 1 No way. She had a fucking, she had a veil of I can't over her fucking eyes.
And I bet a little Vin Rose. A little rose, a little bottle of rose.
She had all kinds of different veils.

Speaker 1 Yeah. The veil, yeah.
Okay, so they go to trial. Um,

Speaker 1 he explained that he had lost his job.

Speaker 1 He explained he was dealing with his wife's alcoholism and trial reveal, her untreated tertiary syphilis that she had con contracted from her first husband, an army lieutenant who was killed in combat in Korea and concealed for 18 years.

Speaker 1 So his crazy wife that used to verbally abuse him and publicly

Speaker 1 maybe I skipped that part, but there's oh no, it's in this part.

Speaker 1 He says in court that she used to publicly

Speaker 1 insult him about

Speaker 1 wait did I guess that completely before? Yes, you absolutely guessed it.

Speaker 1 Out of the blue.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Well syphilis makes you go fucking bananas.

Speaker 1 He

Speaker 1 list said by then the disease and her excessive alcohol consumption had, according to testimony,

Speaker 1 transformed her from an attractive young woman to an unkempt, paranoid recluse who frequently and often publicly disparaged List, comparing his sexual skills unfavorably to those of her first husband,

Speaker 1 the one who gave her syphilis. Syphilis.
Jesus, that scared the shit out of me. So here's me playing the prosecuting attorney.
Mr.

Speaker 1 Liz, can you explain how your wife often disparages your sexual skills in public if she's a recluse?

Speaker 1 No more questions, Your Honor. And I turn around, slam my blazer down onto the chair.

Speaker 1 All right. So basically, John List makes all these excuses in court.
He's like, I have PTSD from being in the army.

Speaker 1 I,

Speaker 1 what else do you say? I, oh, wait, a.

Speaker 1 Smoker. He, oh,

Speaker 1 it was my wife. My kids were going crazy.
I was abused as a child. My father always told me that you had to provide for your family and that you had to do this and you had to do that.

Speaker 1 And I wasn't doing anything, any of those things because I lost my job, blah, blah, blah. So

Speaker 1 a court-appointed psychiatrist testified Liss suffered from obsessive, compulsive personality disorder.

Speaker 1 And he only saw two solutions to his situation, accept welfare or kill his family and send them to heaven.

Speaker 1 And welfare was unacceptable because it would expose him and his family to ridicule and violate his authoritarian father's teachings. Blah, blah, blah.

Speaker 1 So, this is a common thing with family annihilators.

Speaker 1 They say that there are two types, and one is a livid coercive killer. And those are the ones that are usually abusive.

Speaker 1 they kill the family when the family tries to run away from them. So it's years of abuse, years of abuse.
The family tries to escape. And then it's like...
We see those all the time.

Speaker 1 I'll teach you all. Yes.
but the other kind is the civil, reputable killer, and they're motivated by a perverse form of altruism. So it's his way of rescuing the family from shame and hardship.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 And in his obsessive, compulsive narcissism, John List didn't choose to fix his own problems, but instead he fixated on the family problems and the problems of society.

Speaker 1 81% of family annihilators kill themselves after killing their family.

Speaker 1 So that's when, in my opinion, John List's argument of this, I was doing the best for the family breaks down because he went on to live a happy life for 19 years

Speaker 1 in Colorado.

Speaker 1 And what, sorry, the part that I was skipping over is he basically told everybody what happened was the day after the murders, he took the train from New Jersey to Michigan and then from Michigan to Colorado.

Speaker 1 He settled in Denver. He took an accounting job as Robert Peter Bob Clark.

Speaker 1 And that's subtle. Yeah.
Kind of plain, but then also exciting. Yeah.
Exciting in a way. Pick one of those names.

Speaker 1 He was the controller at a paper box manufacturer

Speaker 1 in Denver. He was, they said controller.
I want to say comptroller. You know what? It's our fucking story to tell.
That's right.

Speaker 1 And then what did he do? He joined the Lutheran congregation, ran a carpool for shut-in church members, and

Speaker 1 met an Army PX clerk named Loris Miller and married her in 1980. It's almost like he's trying to prove to himself that he's actually a good person.
It was just circumstantial. It was them.

Speaker 1 His wife, his alcoholic syphilitic wife, his hippie daughter, his rebellious children, they ruined it for him. I feel like

Speaker 1 in the 50s, that might have worked better than in the 70s and 80s, that excuse, or like, especially the 80s, but like

Speaker 1 that came to an end, end, it seems like.

Speaker 1 Right, because it, well, that was also like the oldest version of like, there's only a father that's the breadwinner. It's never the mother, and no one gets divorced.
And this is the American dream.

Speaker 1 You have to have a house and two kids. All that bullshit, everyone got sold.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 That everyone kind of had to swallow whole, basically. Also, John List

Speaker 1 was abused as a child, which is a very common thing in family annihilators because

Speaker 1 they get, they feel powerless. They felt powerless as children.
So when they have families, they're exerting power over the family to give them that power that

Speaker 1 they're in charge. Exactly.
And then when that doesn't work, they don't know how to deal with it. Oh, man.
When the 70s come and the daughter's like, I'm going to go crazy.

Speaker 1 Yeah, when there's a fucking cultural revolution throughout the country and your daughter's like, I think I might want to act. Yeah.
Instead of being a devout Lutheran. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah. So So they're trying to create the life they never had that they fantasize of as abused children.
Right. And then when that goes to shit, they're just like, well, we're starting over.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 Essentially. Yeah.

Speaker 1 I guess

Speaker 1 this has a great twist ending.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 he was convicted of five

Speaker 1 counts of murder of

Speaker 1 and the judge said,

Speaker 1 john emel list is without remorse and without honor after 18 years five months and 22 days it's now time for for the voices of helen alma patrick patricia frederick and john f list to rise from the grave that's beautiful and he imposed a sentence of five terms of life imprisonment to be served consecutively it was the maximum penalty and list died of pneumonia in prison on March 21st, 2008.

Speaker 1 Wow. His body was not claimed because who's gonna fucking claim it? He lived for a long time.
He really did. The second wife didn't return the call.
The morgue was like, oh, we have your.

Speaker 1 She's like that ain't my. Hello.

Speaker 1 But eventually someone took him back and he was buried next to his mother in Michigan. Wow.
She's like, fuck this guy. Yeah.
Get out of here.

Speaker 1 He shot me the fucking face and then wouldn't even carry me to the ballroom. But are you ready for this twist ending that? Oh, that's not it? Yeah.
This is it.

Speaker 1 So somebody burnt down Breeze Knoll,

Speaker 1 the great mansion.

Speaker 1 No one's ever even looked into who might have done it.

Speaker 1 Who did it?

Speaker 1 Could have been a ghost fire.

Speaker 1 There was a New Jersey ghost fire.

Speaker 1 But

Speaker 1 destroyed along with the home was the ballroom stained glass skylight, which was a signed Tiffany original

Speaker 1 worth at least $100,000 at the time,

Speaker 1 which would have covered his expenses.

Speaker 1 It was right there the whole time in that room you didn't go in because you couldn't deal with it.

Speaker 1 Oh, oh my God. That's going to be someone's new ringtone, by the way.

Speaker 1 That's John List, everybody. Oh, also,

Speaker 1 because he disappeared in 71 and D.B.

Speaker 1 Cooper. D.B.
Cooper, they thought he was D.B. Cooper for a while.
Because he kind of looks like that sketch. Yeah, Mr.
Veg.

Speaker 1 And D.B. Cooper stole $200,000, which was kind of around, they figured, around how much John List owed.
Are they sure it wasn't him?

Speaker 1 John List vehemently denied it from jail. That's how fucking boring this guy is.

Speaker 1 No, I'm not. No, I insist I'm not D.B.
Cooper.

Speaker 1 It could have been cool if you were. Yeah, but maybe he doesn't.
I bet it was him. No, I don't think this guy would have jumped out of a plane.
He was too scared to tell his wife he got fired. Okay.

Speaker 1 You know? Okay, maybe he thought,

Speaker 1 I don't know. Do Lutherans like Jesus? Maybe he thought Jesus would help out? Yeah.
Jesus did help out. He gave him a beautiful skylight, a Tiffany skylight.

Speaker 1 The Lord said it was right there all along. You know that whoever burnt that house down is fucking bum.
They didn't know that, too. Yeah.
There was some real estate agent that ran up at the last.

Speaker 1 What are you doing? No, no, no, no. At least get the thing.
You ghosts and your arson.

Speaker 1 Okay, we're back. Remember when Conan O'Brien guested on our show and told us this story like we had never heard it before?

Speaker 1 Yeah,

Speaker 1 but also, I mean,

Speaker 1 why would he, you know, have ever listened to this podcast? But

Speaker 1 also that he was in the courtroom when it, when John listened to it. Oh my gosh.

Speaker 1 He's a super gigantic murderino, but he also was like, the assumption was we didn't know what he was talking about. It's just like it was a little like, you've maybe never heard of this one.

Speaker 1 And it's like, try and either that or just I'm fucking telling this story. And it's like, oh, I have some details too.
Okay. No.
You're right. You're right.

Speaker 1 One of which, God damn, I think about it literally once a week. Yeah.
Is that John Liss did all of that because he was broke.

Speaker 1 And meanwhile, in that mansion that he felt pressured to buy, there was a Tiffany flash ceiling. It was the glass or ceiling.
Like a skylight. Yeah.
Or was it a light fixture? I can't remember.

Speaker 1 But either way, it was worth over $100,000 enough to get him out of debt. Let me throw this in there.
Okay. Do you think, aka,

Speaker 1 I bet

Speaker 1 he still would have found something later to kill them all for. He would have sold that skylight or light thing, used the hundred grand.

Speaker 1 He still would have fucking killed them on something else. I feel like a family annihilator, the problem isn't actually debt.
It's not, you're right. Yes.

Speaker 1 It's not getting out of debt and everything's fine and everyone's happy. It's he wanted to and he found a way to do it.
Yeah, there wasn't a magic, yeah, magic key that was going to solve it.

Speaker 1 And also just that the whole topic of family annihilators, it's so intense. It's so way out there.

Speaker 1 It's just,

Speaker 1 and it's crazy because now those stories are coming up more and more. Yeah.

Speaker 1 And he, specifically, this story is just so cold and calculated. The whole cutting

Speaker 1 his face out of the pictures. And

Speaker 1 just, I mean, it's just so sick. Are there any updates? I know he's dead, but anything you have to do? He is here.
This is what's important. I've learned what a compptroller is.

Speaker 1 Webster's dictionary defines a comproller as a management-level professional who oversees financial reporting and accounting.

Speaker 1 Also, while he was on the run, John took a job as a controller, which we also didn't understand or care about in the original story.

Speaker 1 Turns out, controllers work for private companies doing the exact same thing. Comptrollers work for governments and nonprofits doing that job.

Speaker 1 So it turns out a man whose financial irresponsibility led him to murder his entire family actually worked in accounting. That was supposed to be his specialty.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 You can't do anything, right?

Speaker 1 The irony, the irony is everywhere with this John List story. Also, the John List story is the America's most wanted element that makes it such a legendary true crime story.
Totally.

Speaker 1 And that his fucking new wife was sitting next to him and didn't recognize him or just, you know, maybe something in her head did, but it's like a movie. Can you imagine? Jesus.
Can you imagine?

Speaker 1 This is why Conan loved the story so much.

Speaker 1 Okay, it's time for George's story that she does on this episode about the death of Warina Wright.

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Goodbye.

Speaker 1 All right. All right.
What's yours? So I have one that I learned about recently because it happened recently. And we're going to, Karen, we're going to do a little play.
Okay.

Speaker 1 This whole, this theme, what is this theme?

Speaker 1 Drama. Drama Teachers.
All right.

Speaker 1 You mean for this episode? Yeah. Yeah, the Drama Teachers episode.
All right. So

Speaker 1 Warina Wright,

Speaker 1 W-A-R-R-I-E-N-A, Warina, Wright, was 26 from New Zealand, and she went to Queensland, Australia on July 29th, 2014

Speaker 1 to celebrate a friend's wedding. Checks into a motel on August 6th, and then on the following day is like, let's see who's on Tinder.
Do you know this one? No. Okay.

Speaker 1 So she fucking Tinders, beautiful girl. She looks like a little bit, a little gothy, but not, you know, she's hot.
So she

Speaker 1 gable toasties

Speaker 1 tinder they he's this like hot ladies man they meet up outside of a bar

Speaker 1 on uh

Speaker 1 the 6th

Speaker 1 i just want to say by the next morning warina will be dead after falling from his gable's 14th floor balcony That's how this goes. That's not good.

Speaker 1 Back to that night. By 9 p.m., they're in his apartment on the 14th floor.
This beautiful building.

Speaker 1 So somehow,

Speaker 1 Gable,

Speaker 1 which is a great name, isn't it? It's his first name. The first name? I don't know.
I kind of like it.

Speaker 1 For some reason, he starts recording what's going on inside with a voice recorder.

Speaker 1 Police somehow extracted it from like mobile phones that were found. I think it was tried.
They tried to delete. He tried to delete it.
It didn't happen. They were able to get it.

Speaker 1 So, so there's, there's a whole,

Speaker 1 uh,

Speaker 1 there's a whole conversation that's recorded. So,

Speaker 1 yeah.

Speaker 1 So, I'm going to read, but I, yeah, okay, I'm going to read. I highlighted your parts.
Okay. Oh, you're, you're Warina.
I'm Gable.

Speaker 1 But let me read it to you also.

Speaker 1 Okay. So, at 1 a.m., the sound recorder started

Speaker 1 and

Speaker 1 it's later ceased, but the recording starts, music's heard, and 20 seconds into the recording, the man states, Fuck me.

Speaker 1 At 1.02 a.m., the man asks the female to chill and have a drink. And she says she is, I'm a psycho-drunk, and do not test me.

Speaker 1 Then at 1.05, between 105 and 108, the pair talk about death. The male says, throw me off the balcony, and that's it.
This is it. Boom.

Speaker 1 Then at 1:16 a.m., there's laughing sounds

Speaker 1 are heard,

Speaker 1 and sounds of hitting are heard as well. But the music continues to play in the background.
And that was scary. As if on cue.
And there are soft sounds of groaning. Okay.

Speaker 1 At 1.29 a.m., the male says, I don't like getting beaten up.

Speaker 1 At 1.36 a.m., the argument begins when the female says she's leaving and can't find her iPhone. She says, Are you going to fucking untie me? Because I will fucking destroy your jaw.

Speaker 1 Oh, my God.

Speaker 1 And then Vince unlocked the door and scared the ever-loving sh.

Speaker 1 Hi, baby.

Speaker 1 Oh, man. Elvis.

Speaker 1 Vince, April.

Speaker 1 Okay, you're going to untie me, blah, blah, blah.

Speaker 1 So at 1.38, the man says, I should have never given you so much to drink. I thought we were going to have fun.
And then he asks her to calm down.

Speaker 1 At 1.41 a.m., the man asks the female to stay, but says, you're just a bit violent. He offers to cook some food and the conversation calms down.
Oh, no.

Speaker 1 At 1.53 a.m., drinks are, more drinks are poured. Stop drinking, you guys.
Yeah, what? You already decided the drinking's bad. Yeah.

Speaker 1 At 2 a.m., the occupant of the apartment below is woken up by the noise.

Speaker 1 At 2.10 a.m.,

Speaker 1 the audio recording, in the audio recording, the male tells the female to relax and threatens to kick her arse.

Speaker 1 At 2.11 a.m., there's sounds of a struggle. A minute later, the sounds of rocks possibly being thrown in the apartment is heard.
At 2.14, the man says, that's enough. You have worn out your welcome.

Speaker 1 You have to leave. The female, out of breath, says, okay.

Speaker 1 At 2.15 a.m., the man says, I thought you were kidding and I have taken enough. This is fucking bullshit.
You're lucky I haven't chucked you off my balcony, you goddamn goddamn psycho little bitch.

Speaker 1 At 2.16 a.m., the female, who is breathing heavily, accuses him of being sexist and then says, lay off. To which the male replies, seriously, what?

Speaker 1 At 2.17 a.m., the man says, you're a goddamn psycho. I'm going to let you go.
I'm going to walk you out of this apartment just the way you are. You are not going to collect any of your belongings.

Speaker 1 You are just going to walk out and I'm going to slam the door on you. Do you understand? If you try and pull anything, I'll knock you out.
Do you understand?

Speaker 1 The female says, I'm so sorry. I don't care.

Speaker 1 Okay, so the fall. At 2.17 a.m., sounds of struggling and heavy breathing are heard.
The man says, let go of it. Let go.
Let go. Let go.
At 2.18, the first choking sounds are heard. Breathing slows.

Speaker 1 Male, let it go. Sounds of a metallic object dropping is heard.
At 2.20 a.m.,

Speaker 1 a door unlocks and the female states, no. The sound of

Speaker 1 a glass door possibly being hit.

Speaker 1 2.20, the man says, who the fuck do you think you are, hey? The female says, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. The male says, you tried to kill me, huh? Well, why did you try and hit me with that?

Speaker 1 Shut your filthy mouth. The female

Speaker 1 screams now. But she's screaming, no, no, no, no, no, no.
The man says, it's all on recording. You know, it's all being recorded.
The female want more no's, just let me go home.

Speaker 1 The male says, I would, but you've been a bad girl. And then the sounds are heard of a door slamming shut.

Speaker 1 Police at this point allege that

Speaker 1 he left her out on the balcony, missed right on the balcony. The female says, Just let me go home, just let me go home.
At 2:21 a.m., a female's final words are heard. Just let me go home.

Speaker 1 Faint screaming is heard.

Speaker 1 You're looking at me like I'm gonna. It's horrible.
Okay, so put that down. All right.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 the occupant in the apartment below his

Speaker 1 hears a female repeatedly shouting no and then sees two legs dangling down.

Speaker 1 So what's going on right now is either she's crazy and drunk and jumping, or she's terrified of this person and trying to get to the balcony below. Yeah.

Speaker 1 So the witness says, in a matter of seconds, I saw the person fall from the balcony above mine.

Speaker 1 At 221, a call is placed from Gabel's phone to his lawyer.

Speaker 1 The call doesn't connect. At 223, a triple-O, which I'm guessing is 911, call is placed by the woman in the apartment below.
Police arrive at the scene.

Speaker 1 And at the same time, the fob key to his apartment is activated. Closed caption cameras capture a male believed to be Gable

Speaker 1 approaching the front entrance of the apartment, and he walks back to the elevator and rides it to the basement.

Speaker 1 At 2.29, sounds of walking are heard in the audio recording, which is still going from earlier in the night. So he has the phone or whatever he's using to record what's going on with him.

Speaker 1 Or in the apartment. With him.
With him. He's like in the

Speaker 1 so sorry. He's recording this entire evening.
He's recording the whole thing.

Speaker 1 And people said he might have done it because he was like a creepy pervert and liked to record these things, or he took home a lot of women. And this is a way to like assure that nothing,

Speaker 1 oh, you know, just to have it if they go crazy or if, yeah, either way, it's sketchy. Yeah.
3:10 a.m.

Speaker 1 He orders a pizza. What? Yeah.

Speaker 1 He says, a pizza of Pizza Supreme, please. He orders a fucking slice of pizza.
At 3.23 a.m., a call is placed to his father.

Speaker 1 He says, hello, dad. I might have gotten a bit of a situation.

Speaker 1 I met a girl for a date. She started getting aggressive.

Speaker 1 We kept drinking. And I think she thought it was like a joke.
And she kept like beating me up

Speaker 1 because she was really drunk. And I forced her out on the balcony.
I think she might have jumped off. And the dad says, Oh no.

Speaker 1 Are you okay? Yeah.

Speaker 1 So there's a million cops walking around. I'm fucked up.
I don't know what to do.

Speaker 1 He says, I don't know. I like I tackled her on my floor inside the building and I never forced her over the edge.

Speaker 1 So the dad picks him up

Speaker 1 and

Speaker 1 eventually he's arrested

Speaker 1 and

Speaker 1 so

Speaker 1 yeah so he's claiming he's innocent she jumped he has nothing to do with it he didn't push her over the edge it's not murder he's

Speaker 1 he's set for trial on August on October 13th 2016 but he's free right now he's out on bond and he he can't stop talking he's posting shit on like bodybuilders.com oh no

Speaker 1 he's just he's doesn't understand why people are blank. He has to be somewhat narcissistic.
Yeah. Oh, you mean like he needs to say his, what his side of it is?

Speaker 1 Yeah, but he's also saying things about how many women he's been with and he's never hurt them. So he's like bragging about that, how nice his apartment was,

Speaker 1 how well he does,

Speaker 1 saying it's a witch hunt.

Speaker 1 But they, but prosecutors think he could be convicted for murder because she was reportedly in fear of her life and was trying to flee him to the apartment below. And those neighbors?

Speaker 1 The prosecutors say that. Oh, okay.
And I'm really interested, I really like, not like, but I'm really interested in murder by suicide.

Speaker 1 I think it's really interesting. Like, there's that one case of there was the road rage incidents on a bridge in Detroit, and this man was coming at the woman who had rear-ended

Speaker 1 him, and she jumped off the bridge to get away from him. Yeah, that's, that was actually a very famous, like one of the earliest law and orders.
Really? Yes. Oh, wow.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 Well, and he was convicted of murder or maybe manslaughter. Because you just didn't know where else to go.
It was just like trying to get away. Yeah.

Speaker 1 But also,

Speaker 1 the idea of recording an entire evening just to be sure

Speaker 1 in and of itself is suspicious to me. Maybe.
What do you need to be sure of that you have been in a position where this has been a problem for you? Or maybe she just already was being a little crazy.

Speaker 1 Oh, so he started the recording. Yeah.

Speaker 1 I'm not victim blaming. They were clearly very drunk.

Speaker 1 Maybe he liked to record his

Speaker 1 sex.

Speaker 1 But yeah, you're right. I mean, like, she, the things that she's doing don't make a lot of sense.
It's not, it's not like it's, uh, it doesn't seem like

Speaker 1 she's the only victim at the beginning. Yeah, it's not from what he's saying, but here's the thing: he's the only one who knows it's being recorded.

Speaker 1 So what he's saying about her attacking him is very specific. And someone on like a Reddit said,

Speaker 1 or maybe on the Facebook page said,

Speaker 1 when my boyfriend was beating me up, he'd say, he'd yell, stop it. What are you doing to me? Why are you doing this?

Speaker 1 To like get the neighbors to think that she was doing something to him just to fuck with her in her mind.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 it could be that. It could just be, and what it sounds like happened from when I read the transcript, which I fucking stayed up all night reading it.
It was like, it's so crazy. Is

Speaker 1 they were having rough sex. Maybe she wasn't completely coherent.
She comes to and is freaked out by it and is trying to get out but doesn't know how.

Speaker 1 And he's telling her to calm down because he tells her to calm down a couple times.

Speaker 1 I think at one point she realized what was happening and picks something up to throw at him. And he gets so angry at that because you can hear him say, like,

Speaker 1 you've been a bad girl. She's trying to defend herself.
He's like, I'm going to have to lock you out on the balcony

Speaker 1 to protect myself. But the whole time, she's been the victim and she's freaking the fuck out.

Speaker 1 And she's drunk and fucked up. And so she thinks the best option is to

Speaker 1 go over the side of the edge and get to the balcony below, which

Speaker 1 yeah, that's like something from a movie. It's like,

Speaker 1 it only works when stunt men do it. Yeah, anyone in their right mind would never try that.
And so she clearly wasn't in her right mind.

Speaker 1 And is there proof that we know that she, if she drank, like, yeah, I know people who have almost like allergic to alcohol, where they have one drink and they're just like legless and out of their minds?

Speaker 1 No, I don't know. It's not like that.
I don't know what her blood alcohol level was. I don't know if they tested her for drugs.
Maybe they're keeping all of that for the trial. Yeah.

Speaker 1 It sounds like that's the story he's trying to push with this recording. Yeah.
Is like, you've gone crazy. But he's feeding her alcohol too.
Yeah. So even if it's like, well, look how drunk she was.

Speaker 1 I mean, his his own recording is

Speaker 1 going to be the thing that convicts him, I feel like. Well, it's super weird to, I can't imagine

Speaker 1 if something terrible happened at my house, like horrifying, like a person committed suicide, I wouldn't be ordering pizza an hour later. No, I mean, I wonder

Speaker 1 if he was so fucked up and didn't know what was going on, it would be almost be like he would go lay down or something or go hide, or, you know, like, I don't think. But also, if you,

Speaker 1 I mean, this also, it just immediately makes me think of the night of because the night of presents you, the story where you completely. I haven't watched that, I've only watched the first episode.

Speaker 1 Oh, okay. But I mean, in just in general, you empathize with the person that they put in front of you because that's the story you're getting, right?

Speaker 1 Which is what happens a lot of the time, is whoever gets a hold of that narrative, then you go, oh, yeah, yeah, no, he would never do that. He's so nice.
Or whatever story. Yeah.

Speaker 1 And what people present you.

Speaker 1 And then what

Speaker 1 and then the shit that they talk about the other person. Yeah.

Speaker 1 So in a way, not to defend him,

Speaker 1 I have no idea what's going on in this one. This is crazy.

Speaker 1 But it makes sense then that if he's kind of out on his own, he's trying to control the narrative by

Speaker 1 tweeting things and posting shit on bodybuilders.com or whatever you said. I mean, like, then he's, that's a person that's just scrambling and making mistakes.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 I feel like the harder you try to defend yourself on social media, the worse you seem and the more people can pick it apart. Yes, for sure.

Speaker 1 Because, I mean, you know, web sleuths have got, have gotten a hold of this. The website web sleuths have gotten a hold of this and are like picking it apart.

Speaker 1 And they think there's been some comments by fake accounts he's made that just know too much about the

Speaker 1 details. Oh, shit.
Yeah. It's like he's his own worst fucking enemy.
Well, and also he's

Speaker 1 paying a lot of attention to this, the process of this, right?

Speaker 1 Which is very strange. Yeah.
It's going to be a hard one. I feel like it's going to be a hard one.
So, sorry, this just happened days ago. 2014.
Oh, oh, okay.

Speaker 1 But he's being, I, I, you know, it's Australia, so I don't know if I feel like he's being indicted, or there's going to be a trial to indict him on the on in October. Oh, okay.
Wow.

Speaker 1 From what I can tell from

Speaker 1 Australian legal ease.

Speaker 1 Isn't that fucked up? Yeah.

Speaker 1 This poor, the poor girl, but this whole situation. Guys, don't meet strangers on Tinder.
Not, oh, man. I'm going to get in trouble for slut shaming.
That's not slut shaming.

Speaker 1 But it's so crazy that people just like

Speaker 1 dating, though. Yeah, but I mean, like, how about the girl, that girl in Santa Monica that knew the guy for a year roof eat or drink? I mean,

Speaker 1 bad things happen to people. It just happens.
Yeah, you're right. But this seems weird because

Speaker 1 the idea that a person is recording an entire evening

Speaker 1 and their foreknowledge of that recording and not telling the other person,

Speaker 1 there's a manipulation on the surface of that that's suspicious. For sure.

Speaker 1 And to me, it's suspicious to say, I record this

Speaker 1 just in case something happens and I need to defend myself. Where it's like, but that's not an accurate defense because we can't see what's actually happening.
It's just your playlist.

Speaker 1 It's also weird at the very end when he's like, I've been recording that. Like, he uses it to throw it in her face somehow, almost like,

Speaker 1 you can't prove anything? Yeah, you can't prove anything. Or

Speaker 1 like, why would he use that against her if he,

Speaker 1 you know, if nothing had happened that he could call the cops for or press charges for? Well, also, he never called the cops, right? No, and he didn't let her go either.

Speaker 1 Like, at one point, she was like, I'm getting my shit and I'm leaving. Where's my phone? And he, like, stopped her from leaving yeah

Speaker 1 so she was freaked out and wanted to leave too both of them

Speaker 1 you know if you had a person this just we'll throw this out there if you had a person in your house you met on a tender date so you don't know them you guys are drinking they get a little crazy you're you're the guy so they it's a girl that tries to beat you up so it's like painful irritating not yeah not life-threatening you when they want to go what would be the why yeah

Speaker 1 why would you keep them there? Yeah. Like, this is your crazy, if you're keeping a crazy person in your apartment, it's quote unquote so crazy

Speaker 1 that you know you're making more problems. Yeah.
Like when, if they, you just go, yeah, get out.

Speaker 1 What are you trying to get out of the situation if you want to keep the person who's crazy and abusive toward you? Yeah. Around?

Speaker 1 You're getting something out of it or it's not as it seems. Right.

Speaker 1 Well, there's that thing about option that I mean, abusive people, you know, it's the gaslighting technique where abusive people are like, why are you being so crazy?

Speaker 1 Like, this isn't that big of a deal. Right.

Speaker 1 And, and the people who that works on, it works very well.

Speaker 1 Well, and also, you would get violent if you were, like, say, tied up against your will or woke up, whatever this scenario was where you would try your best to, like, what are, what are the rocks that got thrown indoors?

Speaker 1 I don't know what the rocks are. I wonder if, I mean, I wonder if she was just almost incapacitated, almost incoherent.
You know what I mean? Where it's like, you're not yet,

Speaker 1 you're just like, you're aware that you're in a situation that's not good. Because she's not forming complete sentences most of the time.
Yeah. She's just saying she's reacting.

Speaker 1 Right. That's right.

Speaker 1 That's crazy. I know.

Speaker 1 And then you have to assume she was naked on the balcony, too. Oh, really? I think so.

Speaker 1 She's definitely barefoot, but I don't, I'm not sure if she's naked. Oh, okay.
So check that out. I didn't, I didn't think of it.
Facts and things.

Speaker 1 Well, yeah. Let's fucked up, right? Yeah.
I've been thinking about that one for a lot, for a long time. Are you okay? I mean, no, no, no.
I just, those ones just make me keep on thinking about it.

Speaker 1 I know.

Speaker 1 The idea of recording an evening is

Speaker 1 super insane to me. Yeah.

Speaker 1 And also just like this weird day and age that we live in where like you could be recorded at any time. Yeah.
Yeah. Like right now.
Oh shit. Oh my God.

Speaker 1 Wait, what are these microphones doing in our faces?

Speaker 1 Okay, we're back.

Speaker 1 Yeah, this one is so rough. Are there any case updates on this? Yeah, I have a couple of case updates.

Speaker 1 After a week-long trial in October of 2016, a Supreme Court jury in Brisbane acquitted Gable Totsi of both murder and manslaughter charges in the death of Lorena Wright.

Speaker 1 So I had done this story before it had even gone to trial and he was acquitted.

Speaker 1 And since then, Totsi has been going by a different name and his name has popped up in the news a few times since, usually tied to stories about his dating life or drinking habits and just like fuel his notoriety.

Speaker 1 And there's just some, you know. he gets into trouble it seems like it's just i want to know what really happened i don't know if we ever will that night you know and And so it's hard to be like,

Speaker 1 he got acquitted. So you want to be like, you don't want to talk shit on this person because what if he's not.
What if he's innocent? What if this whole thing was this terrible

Speaker 1 happenstance that was, I mean, all of it is just so baffling. Yeah.
And it's just like such a sad, tragic, unnecessary death of this young woman. And that's really what it comes down to.

Speaker 1 Yeah, that's right. That's right.

Speaker 1 So let's talk about the new title because incredibly we titled this 29 German spelling of nine. But I bet I made that up.
I don't remember, but I don't think that would be something you suggested.

Speaker 1 I really don't think I would have, but who's to say? You know? I mean, it's who's to say. Literally.

Speaker 1 But also, it's just kind of like, we're just trying to get this stuff done. I wonder how much longer it is until we stop fucking naming things after numbers.
It's got to be pretty close.

Speaker 1 29 is the fucking, is all we got.

Speaker 1 Right. We just were like, we need a different

Speaker 1 gimmick here. Please.
All right.

Speaker 1 So if we were naming the episode today based on things we said in the episode, we could call it happy clap, which I love because that's what Stephen does when Karen talks about Nico Case, which is the cutest.

Speaker 1 I see Stephen sitting cross-legged on the floor doing his

Speaker 1 happy clap. His quiet sound guy happy clap.
Yeah. Also, all the cookies, which is what Georgia says Elvis is with Vince because Vince gives him all the cookies.

Speaker 1 Yeah, that's when we had to make Vince and the cats go in a different room, go in the one bedroom of my one bedroom apartment.

Speaker 1 We were recording and he couldn't make a noise or come out or do anything. Yeah.
He was like, and also we were out there for an hour and 45 minutes most of the time. We really were.

Speaker 1 And once in a while I'd scream, Vince, what was the name of that movie?

Speaker 1 Oh, that's cute.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 prayers up to Vince Averill once again

Speaker 1 for being there from day one. Still doing it.

Speaker 1 Still putting in his hours. He really is.
Thank you guys for listening to this episode of Rewind and for sticking with us and still being here.

Speaker 1 Yes, we rewind every Wednesday, so come back and we'll be doing episode 30 next week. That's right.
And until then, stay sexy and don't get murdered. Goodbye.

Speaker 1 Elvis, do you want a cookie?

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Speaker 1 Plus, there's Groon's kids for the little ones. Whether you're already into wellness or still figuring it out, Groon's fits right into your routine.
You've got nutrition gaps, and Groons fills them.

Speaker 1 Use code MFM for up to 45% off. That's code MFM for up to 45% off.
Groons, get your greens the easiest way possible. Goodbye.