462 - We Own This Table

Speaker 1 This is exactly right.

Speaker 1 This podcast is sponsored by PayPal.

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Speaker 2 Goodbye. Goodbye.

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Speaker 2 You will not want to miss this. Goodbye.
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Goodbye.

Speaker 2 Hello

Speaker 2 and welcome loudly to my favorite murder. That's Georgia Hartstark.
That's Karen Kilgareff.

Speaker 1 We are in 2025-25 mode.

Speaker 2 God damn it.

Speaker 2 We are.

Speaker 2 This is like not new to you. We've already done an episode in 2025, except we recorded that way back in the olden days.
Yeah. 25 years ago in 2024.

Speaker 1 Yeah, for us, it was last year. Yeah.
We tripped you. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Sorry. Sorry.
We're back after a fucking month-long vacay. Oh my God.

Speaker 2 Senses are overloaded.

Speaker 1 It's very intense in here.

Speaker 2 Yeah, the contour is contouring.

Speaker 1 My sleeves are down over my hands, like Jennifer Love Hewitt.

Speaker 2 Cute.

Speaker 2 Cozy.

Speaker 2 How was your break?

Speaker 1 It was very nice. I spent a month on my dad's couch watching football.
Well, he was watching football with the audio going directly into his hearing aids.

Speaker 1 So it was silent out in the room. So I could freely watch TikTok for eight hours straight.

Speaker 2 And you did. Oh,

Speaker 1 I've learned a lot of new affirmations.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 A lot of dense bean salad recipes.

Speaker 1 A lot of watching people get their hair cut. My favorite.

Speaker 2 That's a good one. Did we talk about the man in Dubai? No.
Ugh. What does he do?

Speaker 1 He redoes. women's hair.
He like fixes their hair color and texture and it is every time. And he also touches their hair so much that it's a little erotic.

Speaker 1 And it is one of my favorite things to watch. And it's just like women sitting there trying to explain why their hair looks the way it does, which haven't we all done that in the hairdressers?

Speaker 2 It does this. There's a, I know, it does this one thing here.

Speaker 1 So I started doing these parts myself. And that's why this is orange and this is dark brown.
Yeah. It's a lot of that.

Speaker 1 And then at the end, he doesn't ever do the trick where it's supposed to be a part two.

Speaker 2 Thank God I fucking hate those.

Speaker 1 Always self-contained. Yeah.
Very respectful. And basically, at the end, he makes their hair look like natural, not dyed, whatever.
And then he just kind of pulls his hands through it to show.

Speaker 2 It's so shimmery and shiny and silky and how good the layers are.

Speaker 2 It is quality comic. Okay, MFM from Dubai live.

Speaker 2 Our first live show in fucking 10 years or whatever is coming at you from Dubai. From his

Speaker 2 hair salon.

Speaker 1 We're both getting makeovers

Speaker 1 for it's a 10-hour episode.

Speaker 2 Let's get our hair done. Get ready.
I want extensions, like real for real morning, fucking TikTok mom extensions.

Speaker 1 And I'll get you a big brown felt hat to wear on top of these.

Speaker 2 I need it. That's a little

Speaker 2 girl. Get me ready for autumn.
Mom talk.

Speaker 2 Oh, my God.

Speaker 2 Mom talk. We've been away.

Speaker 2 I don't remember how to do that.

Speaker 1 I mean, how? It's just chatting at the top, right?

Speaker 2 Right. Okay.
I have two things I wrote down because I was like, you're going to forget this by the time vacation's over. Okay.
Recommendations. And I bet you've already watched it.
Okay.

Speaker 2 Vince and I binged the fuck out of Ripley. Did you watch it?

Speaker 1 Which one was that?

Speaker 1 How's your neck?

Speaker 2 I actually threw my back out.

Speaker 2 Did you? The reason I did that is because this dress is so fucking tight. Seriously.
It just like barely fits, which is fine. You have to wear a trouser for your back.

Speaker 2 What? I didn't know you had to wear a truss for your back. No, this dress barely fits.

Speaker 2 No, this vintage dress. This truss is so tight.
And I'm like, oh my god, that's so sad.

Speaker 2 Because the way you turned, I was like, no, it's the stress. There's not a moment to breathe in this dress.
There's not a millimeter of a moment for me to breathe out in this dress.

Speaker 1 It's kind of acting as a truss.

Speaker 2 It is acting as a truss. Acting as.
I guess. It is a really good dress.
Thank you. This is like, yeah, I'm obsessed with this.

Speaker 1 It's a pattern that only ever happened in 1967. Yeah.
Right? Yeah. 471.

Speaker 2 Around there. If you go to our social media or our YouTube, you can see the dress.
Oh, yes.

Speaker 1 Look at her. Look at her go with all her colors and her patterns.
She barely fits. This is what Jan Brady wore to the winter formal.

Speaker 2 Ripley is the one with amazing Andrew Scott, the hot priest.

Speaker 2 Dude. And it's based on like the,

Speaker 2 what's the called Ripley?

Speaker 1 The wonderful Mr. Ripley.

Speaker 2 That was it.

Speaker 1 The looking for the god, Mike, interruption. The talented Mr.

Speaker 2 Ripley. Thank you.

Speaker 2 That's what we're not. That's the one word that doesn't get thrown around a lot here at my favorite murder.

Speaker 1 It's so beautiful. It's so compelling.

Speaker 2 It's so incredible.

Speaker 1 And if you're a kind of like state school dropout dummy like me who sees a black and white series and goes, I can't handle this,

Speaker 2 just hang on. Hang on, definitely.
It's so fucking good.

Speaker 1 You won't believe your eyes.

Speaker 2 It's incredible. So we binged that.
And then I have a book recommendation that I'm so in love with. I'm so so excited to talk about.
It's an audiobook. Okay.
Philomena Kunk. Oh.

Speaker 1 Kunk on Earth. You've probably seen on Netflix.
Some of the funniest, like, some of the funniest hard jokes I've seen on TV.

Speaker 2 But in that dry English way.

Speaker 1 So dry and so, she just doesn't like anything. No.
She doesn't approve of Jesus or Van Gogh or really anything.

Speaker 2 And doesn't understand it.

Speaker 2 Is that her fault? No.

Speaker 1 She thinks it's all stupid.

Speaker 2 Yes. So the incredible Philomena Kunk, played by the incredible comedian Diane Morgan.
Philomena Kunk has come out with an audiobook called The World According to Kunk.

Speaker 2 And it's a history of the world.

Speaker 1 Yes.

Speaker 2 It is so fucking hilarious that I scared the cats laughing so loud when I was listening to it. Yes.

Speaker 2 It's just so joyous. I can't recommend it enough.

Speaker 1 Well, you know what? I'll do a parallel. off-the-cuff recommendation.
And this is secondhand from my sister Laura.

Speaker 1 But she literally texted me last night because she was watching Nate Bargazzi's comedy special.

Speaker 1 And she was like, I'm watching his comedy because I told her, I'm like, you will love it and you will, it'll do it for you.

Speaker 1 Because she gets very stressed out watching comedy.

Speaker 2 I get it.

Speaker 1 As many of us do. I'm like, you'll love it, whatever.
She texts me and she's like, I'm just sitting in my room laughing out loud.

Speaker 1 It's insane. So we were just talking about this earlier.
Like, if anybody deserves the massive success he is attaining right now, it's Nate Bargazzi. He's one of the like nicest, coolest.

Speaker 1 He's exactly what he's like in his comedy.

Speaker 1 I love the way he does comedy.

Speaker 2 Yeah, he's fucking hilarious. Also, like, how exciting is it to see fucking Nikki Glazer absolutely fucking killing it? I'm same, same with her.

Speaker 2 She's the exact same person on stage as she is in fucking person. Yes.
She's so lovely. I get, I'm so excited.

Speaker 1 And so talented. She's so talented.
Again, those hard jokes where some people make it very easy, but it's like, that's. That's the money right there.

Speaker 1 And she is, that's her whole act and always has been. We got to see her one year at the High Plains Comedy Festival, headlining this huge theater.

Speaker 1 And I I just had never, I'd only ever seen her pieces and parts. And to watch her do an hour, however long she did, 30 minutes or something, it was just like, I was just so proud of her.

Speaker 2 She's great. Yeah.
Yeah, very cool.

Speaker 2 I don't know. Like, we're coming up on nine years and doing this podcast.
No, you're shaking your head.

Speaker 1 No. I just don't know about that.

Speaker 1 I just am.

Speaker 1 It's bewildering because when I told you in like month four

Speaker 1 to get your hopes down.

Speaker 2 Yeah, you did.

Speaker 1 I really, really didn't want you to get run over by the show business bus.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 I mean, I feel very grateful to have been as wrong as I was.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 But it's so weird that all of my experience up until that point literally was like you could, you could bet money on it.

Speaker 1 You could set a timer to people having like this little of success and then going straight down into a pit, like basically like crashing their car, getting someone pregnant, going to a mental hospital, like

Speaker 2 two or three of those things. We've done a couple.
Literally. We can do it all.

Speaker 2 Have you been pregnant? I haven't been a business. Yes, a couple times.

Speaker 1 It's not your business and it's certainly not my business.

Speaker 2 That's right.

Speaker 1 But I just, it's just so weird to me because I was like, well, if this is going to go anyway, it's just going to go this one way. Yeah.

Speaker 2 I mean, you're not wrong. There has been a bus runover feeling to it.
And I am a very changed person.

Speaker 2 And it has been, I did check myself into a mental health facility a couple years back because it was so bus-hittingly

Speaker 2 awful. Yeah.
You know?

Speaker 1 Yes. I do know.

Speaker 2 Yeah. You know?

Speaker 1 Well, I, I knew that, but I also have felt that with you. Yeah.

Speaker 2 So that's been a total change. We're about to like kind of step into a new chapter, one would say, yes.
With this podcast and the network as far as like

Speaker 2 our new home.

Speaker 1 Yes, we're going to have a new home. We're not going to be independent anymore.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 So we've been independent the past year and it's been

Speaker 1 equally amazing and empowering and great.

Speaker 1 But then also this show in particular is too big to be independent, which is the weird irony of being in this business where like once you get out past a certain point,

Speaker 1 you like have to keep going and you have to keep going up. Right.
Which is maybe the pressure you're talking about and maybe that feeling. And

Speaker 1 yeah, and the difficulty that we've had in the past is like, it's cool because right in this moment, we get to do a thing we could never do, which is talk about anything.

Speaker 1 Because when you're in contract with a company, you're literally and legally not allowed to have feelings that you share publicly.

Speaker 2 Right, which fucking feels terrible and sucks.

Speaker 2 So, what I really hope for this moment after this year of being independent is that we, and I think what's going to happen with with this new company, and it's the reason we are going to go with them, is that we respect them and it seems like they respect us.

Speaker 2 And I keep reading things about like the podcast industry is changing. Look at the numbers then compared to now.
But really what's changing is that we're kind of going back to our roots.

Speaker 2 And what that means is that this podcast network that means so much to us, this podcast itself and our listeners are who we're doing this for. And I'm excited to get back to normalcy a little bit.

Speaker 2 Okay, so look, here's the point.

Speaker 1 We are excited for the future. That's right.
Oh, and also we have a podcast network, and here's some highlights from that.

Speaker 1 We have a podcast called Buried Bones with two of probably True Crime's biggest stars, Kate Winkler-Dawson and Paul Holes.

Speaker 1 And on their podcast this week, they dive into the first episode of a two-part series that takes us back to 1970s Baltimore, where a teacher at an all-girls Catholic high school goes missing.

Speaker 2 And then over on everyone's favorite car-based podcast, Do You Need a Ride, comedian Sabrina Jalize hops in the car to talk to Karen and Chris about life, hope, and ayahuasca. Baby.

Speaker 1 Hey,

Speaker 1 that was actually one of my favorite episodes because we were supposed to record it on the day after the election.

Speaker 1 And so, of course, we canceled that. And then we reset it for like two weeks later.
And we had a really funny conversation about that. And I didn't know her personally.
I'd seen her and heard of her.

Speaker 1 Truly one of my favorite people, Sabrina Jalise. Such a cool person.
So come.

Speaker 1 So then on this week's episode of Ghosted by Roz Hernandez, it's titled John Gabris is not allowed to use the Ouija board, which pretty much tells you everything you need to know about that episode.

Speaker 1 Go listen to that.

Speaker 2 And then also, it's a new year and there are new ways to die on this podcast. Will kill you, one of my faves.

Speaker 2 For example, this week, Aaron and Aaron start a two-part series on what thing that fucking plagues me forever, fucking allergies.

Speaker 1 Allergies.

Speaker 2 Like I never am not without a fucking disgusting tissue. It's so irritating.

Speaker 1 Georgia just pulled a tissue out of her truss, if you can believe that shit.

Speaker 2 Also.

Speaker 1 Really quick before we get into our business, we just wanted to say our beautiful friend, Dr. Dan, over on Parent Footprint, is leaving the network.

Speaker 1 We loved having him for the, I think it's been five years, right?

Speaker 2 Yeah, it's been about five years.

Speaker 1 It's been about five years. And we're just so thankful that we got to have his parenting advice and expertise.
He's so good at what he does.

Speaker 1 And he's a member of the family.

Speaker 2 He literally is my cousin. He's, I saw him at Hanukkah.
He's lovely and kind. He's going to take the podcast in a new direction and kind of his career, too.
I'm really excited to see what comes next.

Speaker 2 And Dr. Dan and Laura, thank you guys so much for being a part of Exactly Right.
Yes. We are

Speaker 2 and forever big fans.

Speaker 1 Yes, for sure.

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Bye-bye.

Speaker 1 This podcast is sponsored by PayPal.

Speaker 2 Okay, let's talk holiday shopping.

Speaker 1 From now through December 8th, you can get 20% cash back when you pay in four with PayPal. No fees, no interest.

Speaker 2 This limited time offer is perfect for the Black Friday and Cyber Monday deals you've been eyeing. Save the offer in the app now.

Speaker 1 So whether you're buying tickets to an improv show or a whodunit board game, PayPal helps you make the most of your money this holiday.

Speaker 2 Expires December 8th. See paypal.com slash promo terms subject to approval.

Speaker 1 Learn more at paypal.com slash payin4, PayPal Inc., NMLS 910457.

Speaker 2 Goodbye. Goodbye.
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Speaker 2 all right all right i'm first

Speaker 2 okay

Speaker 2 since your trust cinch your trust and sit up straight and tell us a story because story time is about to begin are you ready to hear a story yes i am Okay, well, we're going to start in the town called Leeton Buzzard.

Speaker 2 What? Guess where it is? Texas. England.
Oh. Leeton Buzzard.
Like, what is that even? I think it's Leighton, Charger. Leighton.

Speaker 2 Well, my guess would have been different if I knew that it was pronounced differently. Leighton Buzzard.

Speaker 2 Like, it's just like how in England, some places are like, Remington Spa. You know, like, spa, what? So Buzzard's the sea.
Symbols be by the sea. Yeah.

Speaker 1 It's like, can you know what? Can you just name a town? Keep it moving.

Speaker 2 It's pretty adorable.

Speaker 1 I mean, they're precious.

Speaker 2 And the town is super picturesque. It's a little town in Bedfordshire, England.
What?

Speaker 1 Which is picturesque, but a huge buzzard is constantly circling overhead.

Speaker 2 They're known for their buzzards.

Speaker 2 It's right outside of London, north of London. It's between Oxford and Cambridge, in case you know where either of those two fucking places are.

Speaker 1 Well, that's where I went to summer school. So

Speaker 1 I went to both and just commuted back and forth.

Speaker 2 Oh, boarding. When you went to boarding school,

Speaker 2 summer.

Speaker 1 I summered at Oxford.

Speaker 2 Well, then you know that it's got those cute cobbled streets.

Speaker 2 This thing is made of brick. It's really darling.
There's cute pubs, local shops. It's just a small chill town.

Speaker 2 And it's actually such a small town that when I looked for local celebrities to tell you about, the only one I recognized was the 1980s pop band Kaja Gugugu. Yes, they're from Leighton Buzzard.

Speaker 2 They're from Leighton Buzzard. They're the ones.
They had the 1983 hit single, Too Shy.

Speaker 1 Oh, I'll sing it for you right now.

Speaker 2 Which is now going to be stuck in your head. Go.

Speaker 1 We can't do it. Oh, we can't.

Speaker 2 Get in trouble.

Speaker 1 Can you do it if you just sing it? Too shy-y, shy-y.

Speaker 2 Hush, hush, I do I. Okay.
So they're, but they're from there.

Speaker 1 They did a great job. And, you know, it's easy for people to say one hit, wonder, but you write a fucking song that everybody likes.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 I mean, it's become one hit to you, but what about me and my heart?

Speaker 1 Also, yeah, it does not reflect the size that

Speaker 1 Kajigugu

Speaker 1 looms large like a buzzard in my heart.

Speaker 2 Don't fucking tell me D-light is a one-hit wonder. I know every fucking word to every album.

Speaker 1 Now, that's what I have to sing if you start talking about D-light.

Speaker 2 This has gotten personal. So the town has that charming, sleepy vibe to it and outside the bustle of London.

Speaker 2 So it's the last place, of course, that one would think something dark would happen, except if you're into true crime. And then you expect it.

Speaker 1 Absolutely no. Yeah.
The more precious a little town is.

Speaker 2 Don't be a precious town.

Speaker 2 Don't light up a room. Don't make everyone smile.

Speaker 1 David Lynch knows this. We know it.
And you know it as a listener.

Speaker 2 So, but back in August of 1981, that peaceful facade was shattered when a well-liked, friendly local shopkeeper was found brutally murdered in the back of her convenience store.

Speaker 2 What followed was a case that went cold for 40 years until a then-teenage girl came forward with a shocking admission and the whole case unraveled. Whoa.

Speaker 2 This is the story of the murder of Carol Morgan. The main sources I use for this story are remarks from the judge

Speaker 2 from the eventual sentencing in this case and reporting from the BBC, of course. And the rest of the sources can be found in the show notes.

Speaker 2 So we're in 1981 and Carol and Alan are a couple who met in a support group for divorced people and got married four years later. Carol's 36.
Alan is a younger man at 31. Hot.

Speaker 1 If you're in a support group for divorced people, you can't tell me that you're just not even listening to anything anyone's saying because you're just absolutely shopping the entire time.

Speaker 2 Oh, for sure. You're there like for one reason alone.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 Was anyone in that support group like disheveled?

Speaker 2 I don't think so. No, no.

Speaker 1 Unless it was not

Speaker 2 co-ed.

Speaker 2 Sorry, I couldn't think of that word.

Speaker 2 It's also so funny, like, and this is like, you know, when we're always like, in today's money, that would be whatever. It's also like in today's age, 31 is actually 45.
Right. You know what I mean?

Speaker 2 Yes. And they do look like this typical British couple.
She's got this pretty, like feathery blonde Bob. He's got this weird Caesar cut and looks kind of sketch, you know, but very British.

Speaker 2 And like 36 and 31 is like actually in your late 40s and in in England in the 80s. Yeah, right.
All of us. All of us.
I mean, yeah.

Speaker 1 Not a pretty time.

Speaker 2 So together they're raising two kids, Dean, who's 14, and Jane, who's 12. And the kids are from Carol's previous marriage.

Speaker 2 And for the past year and a half, the Morgans have owned and operated a little corner store in a residential neighborhood. It's described interchangeably as a convenience store and a newsstand.

Speaker 2 So I think it's like that, but British. So kind of the like place where you buy a newspaper or candy or cigarettes, just kind of like a pop-in little British, you know, grocery green grocer.

Speaker 1 No, nothing green though. Bodega, let's say.

Speaker 2 Yeah, maybe.

Speaker 1 Maybe. But more newspapers.
Right.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 I can't breathe in this fucking drink.

Speaker 2 So the family lives in the apartment above the shop. Carol is well liked in the village and is known for being kind and helpful around the shop.

Speaker 2 And she's often described as a absolutely devoted mother to her two children. So here we are.
It's a Thursday night, August 13th, 1981.

Speaker 2 That evening, Alan had taken the teens to a double feature movie in nearby Lutton. Now, the three of them going to see a movie is actually unusual in itself.

Speaker 2 This stepdad taking the two, you know, a 12 and 14-year-old to see this movie is weird because Alan didn't really spend a lot of time with the kids when Carol wasn't around.

Speaker 2 In fact, the family didn't do much together at all anymore, especially because there's tension in the marriage.

Speaker 2 But for some reason, that night, they go to a double feature and things seem fine. They get back to the shop around 10.45 p.m.

Speaker 2 When they come back, Alan sends the kids up to the apartment while he goes into the shop.

Speaker 2 When he goes in, he sees that it's a mess and merchandise is scattered everywhere, almost like there's been a robbery.

Speaker 2 He proceeds to the storeroom in the back and there, he's met with the horrifying discovery of Carol's body. She's lying in a pool of blood.

Speaker 2 Her body had been savagely attacked with what investigators will later believe to be either a machete or a cleaver or an axe. Horrible.
I know. She's been struck between 10 and 15 times.

Speaker 2 It's completely savage. The main investigator later says it was, quote, the worst attack I've seen on a human being.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 The perpetrator had also robbed the store of 500 pounds, which in today's money would be worth

Speaker 1 pounds.

Speaker 2 Are they always above us i think it varies yeah i guess that's true i'm not an economics

Speaker 1 well let's see roughly 500 in the 80s in pounds it would be easier it would be like 2500 today 3100 about

Speaker 2 so close okay

Speaker 2 so almost nothing for brutally and savagely murdering the person that works there right and actually it's also weird because the cash wasn't stolen from the register it was stolen from a hard-to-find drawer in the shop's back office which to me actually isn't that weird.

Speaker 2 Like

Speaker 2 if someone were threatening her, like, where's the money?

Speaker 2 I want more. Like, you're going to lead them to it.
You know, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 It's like one of those things where they're always like, it's weird because it wasn't forced entry, so they must have known their perpetrator, but it's like people answer the fucking door all the time.

Speaker 2 And then people kick their way. You know, it's just okay.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 Anyway. And the killer also steals 105 packs of cigarettes.

Speaker 1 I feel like no matter what this is going to turn into, that by itself was a crime of opportunity where it's just like, that's you're in a store store and you're just like I'm going to get everything

Speaker 2 right like let's

Speaker 1 yeah and if you already oh god though it's just such a such a

Speaker 1 that kind of murder there's all kinds of it's all horrible but that especially where it's very very gruesome and there's a lot of blood the idea that you aren't like as a human being just totally in shock yourself or like

Speaker 2 and just leaving no you're actually turning around and going like what do I need yeah before you leave is just psycho totally like the having the wherewithal to then go about your business is or just clearly speaks to how evil you are absolutely so detective superintendent Ryan Prickett of the local police is put on the case and investigators quickly hear from multiple witnesses that a young man with light brown hair who's about five feet six inches tall was seen near the shop on the evening of Carol's murder.

Speaker 2 And there's a composite sketch drawn. Witnesses say he was seen clutching two plastic shopping bags to his chest, so probably with the cigarettes.

Speaker 2 They say the man left in a station wagon that was parked outside the shop. The police obviously quickly confirmed that Alan couldn't have committed the murders.

Speaker 2 His alibi is completely solid because he was at the movies, weirdly. But as the investigation goes on, Alan, of course, starts to look suspicious.
As it turns out, Alan had a pretty shady side.

Speaker 2 A lot of people in the neighborhood have had bad interactions with him, and they hear from multiple people that he has a reputation of saying offensive things, particularly to women, and that he's known to be a bit of a bully.

Speaker 2 Neighbors who live near the shop and where the Morgans live say that Alan is known to have had several relationships with other women.

Speaker 2 It's like a well-known fact about town. Alan himself tells the police of his own volition that he has been in a relationship with another woman for some time.
just tells them that.

Speaker 2 In fact, everyone knows about this relationship. It's with a woman named Margaret.
And not long before Carol's murder, Margaret's husband had gone into the shop to confront Alan about it.

Speaker 2 Alan and Carol's marriage had been very strained because of this, because Carol knew about the affair.

Speaker 2 But the month before she died, she had told her uncle that she and Alan were trying to give things another shot.

Speaker 2 So it doesn't take long for rumors to start to circulate that Alan had something to do with his wife's death. And this is just so absurd.

Speaker 2 There is this news footage of him being interviewed outside the shop in the months following the murder. And in it, Alan addresses these rumors.

Speaker 2 It's so fucking absurd. The reporter's like, you know, why are people saying stuff about you? What are they saying? And he says, quote, to be offhand that I killed my wife.

Speaker 2 But as the police know, and as you yourselves know, well, I was in Lutton taking the kids to the pictures, end quote.

Speaker 2 And he's just like totally casual about it as if he's talking about like a robbery and not the brutal murder of his wife. Right.
He's saying like, I'm not a suspect.

Speaker 1 And he's making sure to really get it out there.

Speaker 2 Right. Everyone knows that.
Yeah. And then when asked why people think he killed his wife, he says, I was happy-go-lucky, I suppose, like afterwards.
I was a bit of a womanizer, but that's all.

Speaker 2 I didn't profit from it, end quote. And then when asked how Carol's death has affected him, this is the fucking craziest.
Alan says, quote, affect me?

Speaker 2 Well, I closed the business for seven weeks while the police were investigating it. I lost a lot of stock I had to throw out and I've had to sell the business at a loss, end quote.

Speaker 2 That's how the murder has affected him.

Speaker 1 So like

Speaker 2 you can't even fake it.

Speaker 1 You got to do some PR training if you are that psychopathic slash sociopathic. We're not sure.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Because you really did yourself a disservice on that one. Like you don't even know to pretend to cry.

Speaker 2 I'm not saying that that's okay and that should happen, but everyone else knows like this is how you're

Speaker 2 like just do these little things. Yeah.

Speaker 1 At least pretend. Right.

Speaker 1 But

Speaker 1 god when you're that far gone you don't even understand that pretending is necessary well because think of it that way where it's like we have cried on this podcast about people getting killed 40 years ago yeah and it's like this is your wife and it just happened totally so what are you three months ago you have you you're not accessing any emotion whatsoever totally That's a good point.

Speaker 2 So then the investigators look into the couple's finances and they find that the shop hadn't been doing great.

Speaker 2 The foot traffic in the area isn't very heavy and the margins at a store like that are very tight, you know.

Speaker 2 And the couple had recently bounced a check to one of their suppliers and they had looked into selling the shop and opening in another location, which Carol had wanted to do after she found out about the affair to get a fresh start.

Speaker 2 But doing that was tricky because Alan and Carol had opened the store with the money Carol had gotten from selling her house, her old house, and a 6,000 pound pound loan, which in today's money,

Speaker 2 6,000 pound loan,

Speaker 2 500 pounds worth $3,000 around.

Speaker 1 I mean, like 12,000?

Speaker 2 37.84. Okay.
So that's a big fucking loan.

Speaker 1 It's a big loan.

Speaker 2 They still owed too much on the shop to sell it and open a different store. And the loan is tied to,

Speaker 2 say it with me, life insurance policies on both Alan and Carol. If either of them were to die, proceeds from their life insurance would pay off the loan.

Speaker 1 Do they still do that? That seems like a very bad idea.

Speaker 2 It does, doesn't it? I mean, it's just so ugly. Yeah, it is.

Speaker 2 It is.

Speaker 2 And there's more. Police find out that in the days leading up to Carol's murder, Alan had made several large cash withdrawals from his bank account.

Speaker 2 He had also ordered an unusually large amount of cigarettes for the store. Oh.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 Almost like I can pay you in the cash that's in the drawer in the back and in cigarettes.

Speaker 1 That turns my stomach. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Where it's like,

Speaker 1 that's what your wife's life is worth. Like, what is wrong with you? Yeah.

Speaker 2 And his strange behavior, of course, doesn't go unnoticed, especially when in sharp contrast to Alan's reaction, an anonymous person from the community.

Speaker 2 who's described simply as a businessman, puts up a 5,000 pound reward for information leading to the capture and conviction of Carol's killer.

Speaker 2 And he says it's because, quote, our town shouldn't have to live in fear of a maniac like this, end quote.

Speaker 2 So it's just a concerned citizen who's uncomfortable with a murder like this, you know, going unsolved in his town. Yeah.
And he fucking cares more.

Speaker 2 Unfortunately, this financial information that they were struggling about the life insurance, about the loan, all of that stuff, is never revealed to the public. or to Alan himself.

Speaker 2 They never told him they knew that.

Speaker 2 And their reasoning was that they were hoping that by giving Alan a sense of confidence, he would slip up and reveal more either to them or the media or like brag to friends or some shit.

Speaker 2 But it doesn't happen, but they still don't release that information, which I don't know, to me sounds like important information to give to potential witnesses that like know

Speaker 2 them. You know what I mean?

Speaker 1 Just to make it the correct context. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1 I mean, I feel like that is, we were talking about the 80s, where it's like the way police worked back then was so internal and kind of like

Speaker 1 secretive. And it felt like individual theories would just get thrown up where we're going to do it this way and do it that way, where there was no kind of like, here's the

Speaker 1 based on these personalities, the best way to kind of

Speaker 1 seed that information. Here's the best way to be most effective.
It's just like, it just seemed random all the time back then.

Speaker 2 Or like not based on any evidence whatsoever, just based on hunches instead of like data.

Speaker 2 So yeah, he never gives up any information.

Speaker 2 And Alan winds up marrying Margaret, the woman he was having an affair with, and the two of them and the two children move out of town to the north of England. They all move away as a family.

Speaker 2 So that's the state of affairs from 1983 on. Every two years, the case had come up for review, witnesses had been re-interviewed, the evidence is looked over again.

Speaker 2 Detective Prickett says that the case is a thorn in his side and he is is desperate to see it solved.

Speaker 2 And then finally, in 2018, Detective Prickett is officially retired and a new set of eyes get on this case. That's when Detective Supt Foster, his name is Supt.

Speaker 2 Spell it. S-U-P-T.
Okay. I mean, it's kind of a badass name, right?

Speaker 1 I don't mind it. Yeah.

Speaker 2 It's like, where'd you get that? But it's okay. Yeah, you don't have to tell us.

Speaker 1 No, you don't. Because you're so private and manly.

Speaker 2 And British. And reserved.

Speaker 2 He takes over as the head of the Bedfordshire, Cambridgeshire, and Hetfordshire cold case review team.

Speaker 2 And one of his first jobs is like just reviewing this big 40-year-old unsolved case of the murder of Carol Morgan.

Speaker 2 So police circle back to all the witnesses. They go back and check all these notes and they...

Speaker 2 come across a now a 60-year-old woman named Jane Bunting. So Jane was only 17 years old at the time of the murder.

Speaker 2 And she was friendly with Margaret, who was the woman that Alan was having an affair with and eventually married. It seems like maybe Margaret was like a mentor kind of to Jane.

Speaker 2 And when they interview her, Jane says, quote, I've been waiting for you to come see me for 40 years. Oh, wow.
And she has a shocking revelation.

Speaker 2 Jane tells police that one night in the months leading up to Carol's murder, she had run into Alan at a local watering hole called the Dolphin Pub.

Speaker 2 She says that evening, Alan asked her if her ex-boyfriend might know anyone who he could hire to murder his wife. And she was horrified by that.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 then you're like, why didn't she go to the police? You know, but her reasoning for never going forward are complicated and they're understandable from the point of view of a 17-year-old.

Speaker 2 in a way, because

Speaker 2 she says that over the decades, she kind of figured that the police, if they truly suspected Alan, he would have been arrested already. So she didn't think he was a suspect.

Speaker 2 And never, they didn't make it seem like he was a suspect because they didn't give any information out about the financial like misdeeds.

Speaker 2 So that's like, if she had known that, maybe she would have like put it together and come forward.

Speaker 1 Yeah, she was just assuming that everyone, everything was kind of proceeding

Speaker 1 as normal, except for that, I think after like five years,

Speaker 2 I don't know. Well, the other reason is that she stayed silent out of a feeling of misplaced loyalty to Margaret,

Speaker 2 which I think is like, I love the cases where it's like, it's a cold case for so long and people's loyalties change. And that's how a lot of those things get solved.

Speaker 2 People come forward, which I think is great. It also just speaks to like, I know that it's important to keep evidence like secret and, you know, so only the killer knows.

Speaker 2 But eventually, if it's cold and nothing's happening, you got to give out more information. Maybe someone will have, you know, something to say.

Speaker 2 After Jane's revelation and with all the other evidence they had, they had gathered against Alan, in 2019, both Alan and Margaret are charged with conspiring to murder Carol.

Speaker 2 Margaret is found not guilty, but in June of 2024, at the age of 74, Alan is convicted and sentenced to life in prison. Wow.
Yeah, finally.

Speaker 2 Alan's conviction didn't bring the closure everyone had hoped for. Carol's family was torn apart.
This is so awful.

Speaker 2 After their mother's death and moving away with their stepparents, Carol's kids each write letters to Carol's parents saying they have new lives and that they don't want to be in contact anymore.

Speaker 2 And of course, Carol's parents are devastated. They lost their daughter and now they're grandchildren.
And they will always believe that the kids didn't write the letters of their own violation.

Speaker 2 They would never do

Speaker 1 grandparents, unless they were the worst grandparents in the world,

Speaker 1 which you know they weren't.

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 1 Like that, no, that's the, that's the psycho husband.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it's like an evil manipulation completely. It's so manipulative to have them do that.

Speaker 1 You would actually want nothing more than to see your grandmother if your mother was dead.

Speaker 2 Right. They're the connection you have.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 And Carol's kids, now adults in their 50s, still struggled with the truth about their stepfather. Dean says that after he hears about the charges, he called Alan,

Speaker 2 who assured him it's all a big misunderstanding.

Speaker 2 Dean kind of pushes back and then Dean says, quote, the argument became heated and he put the phone down on me, meaning he hung up on him while he was trying to get to the bottom of his mother's murder.

Speaker 2 And then he says, we have not spoken since, end quote.

Speaker 2 In 2024, at her stepfather's sentencing, Jane, who was 12 at the time of her mother's murder, gave a heart-wrenching victim impact statement in court saying, quote, the man I spent my entire life calling dad lied to me for my entire life.

Speaker 2 It has been an incredibly distressing and confusing period of my life that has made me doubt everything I knew about my mother and my stepparents, end quote.

Speaker 2 While Alan is now in prison, there are still, of course, unanswered questions.

Speaker 2 He's never revealed any information that could lead to the identification and arrest of the man that he hired to murder his wife.

Speaker 2 And that person's identity remains a mystery, although, of course, police are still looking into it. The town of Leighton Buzzard still remembers the murder of Carol Morgan.

Speaker 2 It was a small town, and the murder was something that haunted the community for the 40 years it went unsolved. Yeah, I bet.

Speaker 2 The case might have been closed, but the mystery surrounding it remains, as does the pain it caused. Latent buzzard, for all its charm, will never forget what happened that night.

Speaker 2 And that is the story of the murder of Carol Morgan. Wow.
40, I feel like it could have been solved.

Speaker 1 It could have been solved.

Speaker 2 Tough. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Well, and also just,

Speaker 1 I don't know.

Speaker 1 Maybe it's just, look, it's 25. It's 2025.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 And we've been doing this for nine years. So it's real obvious to us.
Yeah. Just Like you read these and hear these stories over and over where it's like, yeah, that

Speaker 1 when it's not direct, then the indirect version goes A, B, C, D, or maybe E, sometimes F. But it's like,

Speaker 1 it's very repetitive.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 These stories. Totally.
And these, what sociopaths do when they need to get their money, get their way, get rid of someone in their way.

Speaker 2 And then what happens when a small town, you know, police force who haven't investigated a lot of murders try to do that.

Speaker 1 Also, it's a thing they say a lot, lot, which is like, we just don't have the evidence. So it's obvious.
We think it's this person. It's obvious, whatever.

Speaker 1 But if there's no one there to even give just,

Speaker 1 you know, eyewitness testimony, there's just nothing.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Yeah.
It's all circumstantial.

Speaker 1 Well, I'm glad it was finally solved.

Speaker 1 But

Speaker 2 some more of those in 2025. Yeah, for real.

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Speaker 2 You will not want to miss this. Goodbye.
Goodbye.

Speaker 2 All right.

Speaker 1 Well, my story's different.

Speaker 2 Good.

Speaker 1 As they usually are. And just a quick trigger warning about French pronunciation in this one because, man, man,

Speaker 1 it's tough.

Speaker 2 But I'll do my best.

Speaker 1 Mrs. McCurry, my freshman and sophomore French teacher, props to you.

Speaker 2 This is going to be bad.

Speaker 1 So I'm going to really lay it on thick just for your enjoyment.

Speaker 2 Do it.

Speaker 1 So this story starts around 10.45 in the morning on May 26, 1986. So we're also in the 80s again.

Speaker 1 And we're in the Mont Parnasse neighborhood of Paris, France. So if you've ever been to the catacombs or down Rue de Guerre, which is a very lively Market Street, you have been to this part of Paris.

Speaker 1 There's also a famous prison there called La Santé, and it's housed many notorious criminals over the years, including Panamanium dictator Manuel Noriega.

Speaker 1 But on this spring day in 1986, something very unusual is happening at La Sante. A rumbling sound can be heard overhead that grows louder by the second.

Speaker 1 It's a helicopter, and it's headed toward the roof of the prison.

Speaker 1 And then a man appears on that roof, and it's clear that he does not belong there because he's a 34-year-old inmate serving 18 years for an armed robbery and attempted murder.

Speaker 1 But what he is already notorious for is actually his three previous successful prison breaks.

Speaker 1 Today he's hoping that this attempt to bust out will be his hopefully fourth and final time.

Speaker 1 This is the story of Michelle Vajour. All right.

Speaker 1 So the main sources in the story today are a 2009 documentary called My Greatest Escape, interviews with Michelle that aired on Europe One Radio and archival editions of the New York Times and the Chicago Tribune, and the rest of the sources are in our show notes.

Speaker 1 So truly, the story starts in 1951 when Michelle Vajour is born in a small town in northern France that I don't have to pronounce because Marin mercifully left the town name out.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 sadly, Michael's father is an abusive alcoholic. So when he's only four or five years old, his mother decides to give custody of him to his aunt Germain.
Germaine is a wonderful caregiver.

Speaker 1 She loves Michelle. She cares about his emotional needs.
At one point, she even gets Michelle a dog that he names Rita.

Speaker 2 The best dog name for a girl. That's good.

Speaker 1 It's real good. And Rita becomes Michelle's most beloved companion.
But of course, this separation from his

Speaker 1 actual original family is very difficult for Michelle.

Speaker 1 It causes a lot of emotional pain, but it gets worse because just a few years after Michelle settles in with his aunt she passes away from cancer and he gets sent back to his parents home a toxic environment where he's deprived of the love and warmth of his aunt and then one day michelle goes to school and we get when he gets home he finds out that his parents gave rita away no horrible

Speaker 1 so he has a tough childhood the people who knew michelle as a boy remember him as a gentle child who loved nature and animals Over the years, he keeps several pet birds, including a falcon, a magpie, and a crow who he claims to have raised himself.

Speaker 1 Wow.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Live in my fucking dreamline.

Speaker 1 Right.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 as Michelle grows older, he starts getting in trouble with the law. Never hurts anybody.
It mostly seems to be rooted in boredom. And he will later say, quote, after 10 p.m., there was nothing to do.

Speaker 1 We were 17. We wanted some action.
We'd steal a car and go looking for cops in town for a bit of fun.

Speaker 2 Looking for cops?

Speaker 1 That's what I was going to say. There's your difference right there.

Speaker 2 Yeah, like I get the stealing cars and having some fun, but like looking for trouble.

Speaker 1 No, dude, it's like you steal a car and your heart is racing and you're driving around town and you're just waiting to ditch the car.

Speaker 2 Wow. You're not looking for cops.
I thought they were like looking for cops.

Speaker 1 No, no, they were. I'm saying a normal person would be avoiding cops at all costs and dying.
Michelle was absolutely looking for cops.

Speaker 2 Looking for trouble. Got it.

Speaker 1 So that might be a little bit of his

Speaker 1 issues with authority and parental figures

Speaker 1 and adrenaline. And where is Rita? We need to find Rita.

Speaker 2 Rita.

Speaker 1 Michelle insists he was only ever borrowing those cars. He'd always return them.
But then one night when he was 19, he quote unquote forgets to give one of those cars back.

Speaker 1 And when the police show up at his house that he shares with his girlfriend and their baby daughter, he is arrested.

Speaker 1 So for a first-time nonviolent offender, Michelle is handed a very heavy sentence, 30 months in prison and a five-year ban on returning to his home region, which is where he's lived his entire life.

Speaker 2 Jesus, that is heavy. Yes.

Speaker 2 And he has a child there. Yes.

Speaker 1 His girlfriend and baby live there. And they're like, you're excommunicated out of this village, essentially.

Speaker 2 And it's like fucking

Speaker 2 the baby mama over too, because that's 30 months of not having that second income.

Speaker 1 Yes, that's right. Well, the second income of stealing cars and then leaving them on the street.

Speaker 1 He must have worked at the subway or something.

Speaker 1 But just for context, the typical sentence for car theft at that time was a couple months.

Speaker 1 So this was overkill for sure in a lot of ways. And it could be because that sometimes happens in small towns where it's like, we're going to teach you a lesson.

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 1 Or we don't like your kind. Right.

Speaker 2 Or you've been chasing the cops down and they're pissed off about it.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Have you been pissing the cops off? Now they got you?

Speaker 1 So,

Speaker 1 of course, michelle angry about this disproportionately harsh sentence but then also while he's incarcerated no one from his family visits him

Speaker 1 and then his girlfriend leaves him for a cop whoo yes so he becomes very angry and disillusioned with the criminal justice system and authority figures and life in general. He serves his time.

Speaker 1 He's released when he's 21. And now Michelle is determined to start fresh.
So he gets a job.

Speaker 1 He starts saving his money, and it's all with the hope that he can actually win his ex-girlfriend back and reconnect with his young daughter.

Speaker 1 But then one day, despite being banned from that region of France under the terms of his release, Michelle travels home to visit his ex and their child.

Speaker 1 On the way, his new car breaks down and the first vehicle that passes him is a police car.

Speaker 1 Because Michelle knows that he's breaking the law just by being in the area and he doesn't have a driver's license,

Speaker 1 so

Speaker 1 a lot of problems. He panics and bolts.
The police catch him, and he's sent back to prison six months after he was released. Yeah.

Speaker 1 So, this second stint behind bars is more than Michelle can handle. Even though he's likely only facing a short sentence, he immediately starts plotting his escape.

Speaker 1 So, in quick succession, he manages two prison breaks.

Speaker 1 The first one, he figures out how to just basically scale the prison wall and he simply jumps to freedom.

Speaker 2 Parkour, man.

Speaker 1 He is the OG parkour here.

Speaker 2 I say parkour in French. It's parkour.

Speaker 1 In the other escape, he convinces another prisoner who works outside of the prison loading trucks to switch places with him for a day. Wow.
And it's a really smart move on his part.

Speaker 1 because working outside means fewer layers of security to deal with. So during this shift, he seizes the moment and he just sprints off facility grounds.

Speaker 1 Both times, Michelle manages to stay free for several days before being caught and returned to prison.

Speaker 1 And then, of course, placed in higher security wing where he spends a lot of time in solitary confinement.

Speaker 2 Horrifying. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Like, and all of this because he stole a car.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 It's just so, so not disproportionate. So disproportionate.
And also then so it's just to break you.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it's inhuman.

Speaker 1 Which is what all prison is.

Speaker 2 It's almost like they say the crime doesn't fit the punishment.

Speaker 1 The punishment doesn't fit the crime.

Speaker 2 That's what it meant.

Speaker 1 Well, I guess, but it means yours was right too, actually. I guess they both work.
You know what? Let's agree to agree.

Speaker 1 So even though he is in solitary confinement, he is not broken. He actually, he's busted out twice.
He actually feels like he can do anything. So he just starts planning escape number three.

Speaker 1 He actually would later say, quote, to me, you had to escape. That's what prison was made for.

Speaker 1 I remember saying to someone once that I wouldn't be surprised to find it in a dictionary, quote, prison, a place to escape from.

Speaker 2 Wow.

Speaker 1 That's how I function.

Speaker 2 That's a fun way to look at life.

Speaker 1 It really is. And I do think that then going forward, because that was his approach, you could kind of tell in the way that he would plan these breaks.
So the next example is great.

Speaker 1 So he gets a new cellmate. named Gilles.

Speaker 1 I will definitely mispronounce that going forward. The two cellmates become very close.

Speaker 1 Michelle will later describe Gilles as, quote, the brother I never had, and that he was the first person that really helped Michelle truly understand what family means, which is lovely and like very sad and kind of underlines that, how hard and fucked up his family life was.

Speaker 1 Totally. No excuse.
No. But still.

Speaker 1 Gilles is a more seasoned criminal than Michelle with experience in armed robberies and more complex heists. And so that makes him the ideal partner when it comes to Michelle plotting his next escape.

Speaker 1 So Gilles himself is not interested in breaking out of prison because his sentence is almost up, but he is willing to help Michelle with his plan despite it sounding ridiculous to him.

Speaker 1 So Michelle's goal is to make duplicates of the prison guard's keys. And he plans on doing that with the red wax coating that you find on the little rounds of Baby Bell cheese.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 1 So they get baby bell in this prison. I guess so.
And he's like, well, if I get enough of that, I can just put it in there and basically harden it.

Speaker 2 Kind of.

Speaker 1 No, just like in passing, press a key into that wax.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 1 So here's the quote from Michelle. Quote, I walked around for months with a piece of cheese in my hand.

Speaker 1 So Marin makes this point in our notes. She says, I don't know if he pressed the key into the red wax or the cheese.
Right. It could be either one.

Speaker 2 Sure.

Speaker 1 To me, wax makes more sense.

Speaker 2 Yeah, the wax would make more sense.

Speaker 1 Because you got to eat that cheese.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Back to the quote. My aim was to get an imprint of the cell key and the key to the exercise yard.
The guards carried a bunch of keys in their hands.

Speaker 1 You memorize the shape of the key you need. You spotted in his bunch of keys and you bump into him a bit like a pickpocket.

Speaker 2 Wow.

Speaker 1 So he, Michelle claims one day that he successfully does it that way and gets impressions of the keys he needs and then takes

Speaker 1 and then takes the key-shaped baby bell wax back to his cell and he and Gilles use that as their blueprint to file down a piece of scrap metal into the shape of some keys. Got it.

Speaker 1 Michelle says it takes them several weeks to complete this, but it works. He winds up with duplicate keys that miraculously function.
Oh my God. I know.

Speaker 1 So for a third time, Michelle manages to escape from prison. Once again, his freedom is short-lived.
He's captured and returned, this time to an even more secure cell.

Speaker 1 So now Michelle's facing 25 years in prison,

Speaker 1 even though he has never committed a violent offense. Yeah.

Speaker 2 He's 24 years old at this point. And he could be an engineer.
Like that key thing is brilliant. He could be a prop maker.
Make him a spy. I bet he'd be a great spy.

Speaker 1 Make him, let him get into theater. I'm getting more of an artsy vibe from him.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 1 He's being held in a facility that truly does seem inescapable. He spends a lot of time in solitary confinement in a cell that's about 20 stories off the ground.

Speaker 1 So that wall jumping plan is out. There are three rows of bars on the windows and an armored fence surrounding the grounds.
Michelle's mental health definitely suffers in this environment.

Speaker 1 His cell is cold and sterile and lonely. He has no personal items.
Everything's concrete. The lights are kept on 24-7.

Speaker 2 That's bad.

Speaker 1 Yeah, really bad. He doesn't sleep much.
Michelle says that the only movement he ever sees day in, day out is when his food gets slid into the cell.

Speaker 2 That's no way to live. Yeah.

Speaker 1 He says, quote, you're about as alive as a fly in a jar, except the fly has proportionately more space.

Speaker 2 Fuck.

Speaker 1 So Michelle's life is bleak, and just when he starts to consider actually maybe ending it, a new thought takes over, the one that's always kept him going. That's the idea of escaping once again.

Speaker 1 Plotting his next prison break becomes his singular source of hope and joy. So basically he's like, well, I'm here anyway.
I might as well try to do the impossible. Totally.

Speaker 1 So he starts looking for any kind of opportunity to see

Speaker 1 where a silver lining might be in terms of escaping.

Speaker 2 It's almost like your sanity depends on you plotting something.

Speaker 2 It's like whether or not it could happen or would happen or is absolutely possible at all, you're going to go nuts if you don't have, like, aren't able to put your brain in a certain direction and train it on something like that.

Speaker 2 Yes, which is true for everybody. Yeah.

Speaker 1 No matter how big or small your cell is.

Speaker 2 You got to have hopes and dreams.

Speaker 1 You got to fucking, and it doesn't matter if they're dumb, who cares? It doesn't matter if it's crazy or cringe or anything.

Speaker 2 Because you're going to get somewhere with them. And maybe not to the place that you're like fucking dreaming of, but it's going to be a couple steps ahead at least.

Speaker 1 You might get yourself a true crime podcast.

Speaker 2 Dream big, everyone. Dream big.

Speaker 1 It's pretty goddamn.

Speaker 2 It's Very fucking awesome.

Speaker 1 We own this table.

Speaker 2 We own this table.

Speaker 1 If we wanted to, we could take these microphones home tonight.

Speaker 2 Oh my God.

Speaker 2 I mean, kind of fuck people over, but. Leona's like, what, what? No.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 in looking for that opportunity, so he has to go to the courthouse every once in a while for like scheduled court dates or legal appointments or whatever.

Speaker 1 So on one of those trips, finds that opportunity. When he notices, he starts noticing basically everything about what the guards are doing.
So he's just like, I'm going to track the guards.

Speaker 1 I'm going to watch what they do. I'm going to memorize it and study it and think about it.
And then every time compare it to the last time. He's a theater spy.

Speaker 2 That's what he is.

Speaker 1 The leading man.

Speaker 2 The leading man.

Speaker 1 So he notices where they typically stand, how they search him, which rooms they take him through. All of these details get like memorized, and then he pieces together this plan.

Speaker 1 First of all, he realizes he's going to need a gun. So he starts to carve one out of a bar of soap

Speaker 1 because

Speaker 1 that's what you have to do in jail.

Speaker 1 He has never owned a gun before, but he is able to carve a realistic-looking one out of soap

Speaker 1 that he paints it black with shoe polish. And then he adds some small, we're getting back into the arts now.

Speaker 1 He adds some small metallic details like a round battery to mimic a muzzle and a nail clipper that he kind of affixes to it. So when it's clicked, it sounds like a gun caulking.

Speaker 2 Come on. This guy is good.
This guy, waste of talent.

Speaker 1 Truly.

Speaker 1 So he realizes the guards always let him leave his underwear on when they strip search him before his court appointments. Okay.

Speaker 1 So when he's finished with his soap gun, he goes ahead and sews a hidden pocket into his underwear, which he refers to.

Speaker 2 How is that not caught on? Underwear with pockets? Come on. A secret pocket.
Secret underwear pockets. Right?

Speaker 1 It seemed like you had one when you pulled that Kleenex out earlier because that came out of nowhere.

Speaker 2 I'm going to fucking trademark that immediately. It's your thing.

Speaker 1 But you have to call them like the Michelle line or something so that he gets some credit.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 he refers to the secret pocket as the quote false bottom because he's French. That's funny.

Speaker 1 And then he stashes the soap pistol there before he's escorted off site.

Speaker 1 So then once he's at the courthouse, the guards tell him to strip down to his underwear. He then asks to use the bathroom.

Speaker 1 Then in the bathroom, he retrieves the soap gun from the secret underpants pocket, and then he walks back out of the restroom, brandishing the weapon.

Speaker 1 The five or so people in the room think he has a real gun. He takes a hostage.
He orders the guards in the room to drop their weapons. They do it.
That's how realistic soap gun is.

Speaker 2 Soap gun.

Speaker 1 Then he manages to escape the building and the officers chase after him.

Speaker 1 So he gets away. Yeah,

Speaker 1 I cannot believe he actually pulls this off, mostly because he didn't think the gun was convincing at all.

Speaker 1 He would later say, quote, it wasn't that well made because when I left the law courts, it was coming apart.

Speaker 2 I'm sure it was just like a matter of surprise.

Speaker 2 If it had been any longer, they would have had time to like, you know, to be like, is that a nail? It doesn't look right.

Speaker 2 It's almost like the adrenaline made them not think it through. And by that, then he could have picked up one of the guns that they had dropped and have him a real gun.
Completely.

Speaker 1 It's all about his,

Speaker 1 may we say, acting on his side of like being convincing. Yeah.
But you spot a gun in someone's hand and they're yelling all the right stuff. Yeah.
You're not going in and being like, is it the

Speaker 1 girl?

Speaker 2 Like you're like, yeah, it is. He got a gun.

Speaker 1 And also, yeah, do the safest thing if someone is brandishing. brandishing a soap gun.
Yeah. Don't get interested.

Speaker 2 No. Yeah.

Speaker 1 So this time, Michelle managed to to stay on the run much longer. He actually ends up reconnecting with Gilles, who has been released from prison.
They start doing jobs together. Nice.

Speaker 1 So he escapes from prison, hooks up with his brother from another mother.

Speaker 2 That's a lovely story.

Speaker 1 And then immediately just starts criming. Okay.

Speaker 2 What else are you going to do? Well, true. You're not going to fucking flip LeBnacs.

Speaker 1 Yeah, you can't.

Speaker 2 You can't. They're Royale Rachief.
They're Royale, yeah.

Speaker 1 And he actually, he's now involved in more organized robberies and using real guns to facilitate them, which he didn't do before.

Speaker 1 He also falls in love with Gilles' sister Nadine.

Speaker 2 Cute. Nadine.
Thank you.

Speaker 1 The most French name in the world, Nadine. Before long, Nadine is pregnant.
The two get married. He's out long enough that he starts a life again.

Speaker 1 Nadine and Michelle spend about two years together before Michelle is caught again, this time following a robbery where a cop actually gets shot. So Michelle is sent back to prison.

Speaker 1 This time he is held at Le Sante in Paris, which is where our story starts, picks back up from the beginning.

Speaker 1 The second his ass hits Le Sante, he starts planning his escape again.

Speaker 1 Then he finds out that Gilles has been killed during a shootout following a botched armed robbery.

Speaker 2 No.

Speaker 1 So of course, this has a huge impact on both Michelle and Nadine.

Speaker 1 So now they together kind of are like, we have to do whatever it takes to be together again. So they put together a wild plan.

Speaker 1 Michelle is going to break out of prison and Nadine is going to pick him up in the helicopter that she will pilot.

Speaker 1 Okay. So that's what we were hearing overhead.
Nadine coming in for her man.

Speaker 2 In the helicopter. That's right.

Speaker 1 Holy shit. That's love.
Some people won't even pick you up from the airport. This woman's like,

Speaker 2 I will learn how to fly a helicopter. Fly the fucking airport.
Sons of bitches.

Speaker 1 I mean, LAX is a disaster, but still.

Speaker 2 Like, I'd rather learn how to drive a helicopter than go to LAX.

Speaker 2 Oh, for sure.

Speaker 1 Definitely sexier. Yeah.
So for five or six months, Nadine takes flying lessons every weekend under a fake name. Oh, my God.

Speaker 1 She has to pay about 2,200 francs an hour to rent this helicopter for these lessons,

Speaker 1 which is, in today's U.S. dollars, roughly how much an hour, do you think?

Speaker 2 $2,000.

Speaker 1 $900 an hour. Okay.

Speaker 2 Still, $900 an hour. That's a lot of money.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 She always pays in cash.

Speaker 2 Smart.

Speaker 1 That's love.

Speaker 1 Some people won't even pay for your Uber from the airport.

Speaker 1 But on the morning of May 26, 1986, Michelle wakes up. He waits for that helicopter sound.

Speaker 2 So he knows it's coming.

Speaker 1 He knows it's coming. He knows.
He's just, I'm sure they're writing each other love letters in code of like, that's a spy.

Speaker 2 There's a spy thing.

Speaker 1 Spy thing.

Speaker 2 He's like, I went, she's like i went and saw the birds this afternoon the birds are circling they cost me 900 dollars your precious birds

Speaker 1 okay so

Speaker 2 nadine

Speaker 1 gets close to lasante Finally, the helicopter is just hovering over the prison yard. Michelle is down in the prison yard.
Nadine tosses a bag out of the helicopter.

Speaker 1 Michelle sprints over to it, picks it up, pulls out a gun, also fake, but more convincing than the soap gun.

Speaker 1 And that's key because if the couple gets caught, they don't want Nadine's charges to be any worse than they need to be.

Speaker 1 So they wanted this to be a fake gun.

Speaker 1 So Michelle turns around and holds the gun on the rest of the prison yard and threatens everyone there.

Speaker 1 Everybody freezes.

Speaker 1 Then Michelle runs up to the prison's roof and has it remember 20 stories up and the helicopter is hovering now over the roof and it's tilted down just enough so nadine got this good at helicopter lessons

Speaker 1 where it's tilted down so that he can grab onto the bottom of the helicopter and hoist himself inside this is a fucking action movie it is the real deal this whole scene just takes a couple minutes so it's that fast wow then nadine in the pilot's seat flies the helicopter away They land at a nearby school's athletic field.

Speaker 2 Nice.

Speaker 1 It's like right over to the high school.

Speaker 2 And then they have the best sex anyone has ever had in the history of sex.

Speaker 1 Can you imagine where it's like

Speaker 2 he has to be in awe of her? He fucking better be. Yeah.

Speaker 1 What more do you want from a woman?

Speaker 2 No, she's like, that's the sexiest thing I've ever heard in my life.

Speaker 1 It's pretty fucking cool.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 He's like, well, you could stand to lose 15 pounds. I'm just saying.

Speaker 1 So, so yeah, if they had, if they did have helicopter sex, they did it before they landed because there's a getaway car waiting for them on this athletic field. An accomplice is the driver.

Speaker 1 With that, Michelle has completed his most cinematic jail break.

Speaker 1 So the couple plans on escaping France with their child to start over somewhere new. They're thinking maybe South America, but they need more cash.

Speaker 1 So Michelle and Nadine decide to lay low or as low as possible while Michelle carries out a couple more armed robberies, which is not laying low and never works. No.
Why don't they know?

Speaker 2 Have they seen a movie?

Speaker 1 I mean, have they read a true crime story?

Speaker 1 So during one of these armed robberies, the police show up. The situation devolves into a shootout.
Michelle is shot in the head. What?

Speaker 2 He survives. What?

Speaker 1 Because he's a survivor.

Speaker 2 What?

Speaker 1 He's in a coma for several weeks. When he wakes up from that coma, He's back in prison.

Speaker 2 No. I mean, yeah, I figured, but no.
You got to figure, but still, coma nightmare.

Speaker 1 Over time, Michelle makes a complete recovery.

Speaker 2 What the fuck? He got shot in the head, bro. This guy is.

Speaker 1 He's made of Kevlar. Yeah.
He doesn't give a shit. He's like, he's going to fight till the end.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 Which I love. That's sexy.
I love it.

Speaker 1 His relationship with Nadine does not last, unfortunately.

Speaker 2 Come on.

Speaker 2 They never do. Have two people been more perfect for each other.

Speaker 1 And also in every fight, I bet it was because of this. In every fight, she's like, oh, really?

Speaker 2 Yeah. Are you going to take helicopter lessons?

Speaker 1 Like, she has the one up on him permanently.

Speaker 1 Men don't like that. No.
So, from the English language sources that Maren could find, it's unclear why they broke up.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 1 But it's not unclear to me. It's not unclear to anybody.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 What we do know is that Nadine does end up having to serve time for helping Michelle escape.

Speaker 1 She may have grown tired of that criminal lifestyle, I would say. Yeah.
She laid it all on the line.

Speaker 1 At this point, they have two children.

Speaker 2 Wow.

Speaker 1 So, not ideal for the heisty, jailbreak-y lifestyle they are leading. So they part ways in 1991.

Speaker 1 After a little time passes, Michelle starts exchanging letters with a young law student named Jamila, who hears about him on the news and becomes interested in his story. Okay.

Speaker 1 So eventually, Jamila will also try to break Michelle out of prison.

Speaker 2 What? What is it with this dude? Right?

Speaker 1 That's what I wrote. Look, how good is that D?

Speaker 1 Is it helicopter lessons level D?

Speaker 2 It's good, good. What are we talking about?

Speaker 2 It's the real deal.

Speaker 2 The real deal.

Speaker 1 Those Frenchmen.

Speaker 1 Jamila claims this is entirely her decision, which sure, in some ways, it is.

Speaker 2 People manipulate you into making your own decision really easily sometimes. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Specifically, Jamila tries to replicate Nadine's helicopter escape. So the ex is over there going, yeah.

Speaker 2 I could do that.

Speaker 1 What choice do you have? Michelle, as you might expect, is fully in on this plan because it's his plan.

Speaker 2 It didn't work the first time.

Speaker 1 It did not.

Speaker 2 Honey.

Speaker 1 And also, but the idea that she's like after the fact, like, no, no, no, no.

Speaker 1 I, that was my thing where it's like, so without speaking to this person, you're like, I would like to do this exact same thing. Right.

Speaker 1 Look, this is just conjecture. We don't know these people.
We don't.

Speaker 1 But

Speaker 1 it doesn't matter anyway, because they are busted before they ever get the chance to carry out this

Speaker 2 new helicopter escape. Yeah, they're a little onto it by now, probably.

Speaker 1 I think they're looking, they're probably going to be watching those letters, looking for code.

Speaker 1 Jamila actually winds up getting seven years in prison. Wow.
Serving five for being a part of all of that planning.

Speaker 2 That's a lot.

Speaker 1 I know. It's kind of crazy.
But Michelle and Jamila still get married while Michelle is incarcerated.

Speaker 1 And then in 2003, Michelle gets paroled after making a very convincing case that he has genuinely rehabilitated himself and is no longer interested in a criminal lifestyle.

Speaker 1 And he attributes that change to Jamila's love and to his decision to adopt her religion of Islam.

Speaker 1 So he is finally released from prison after serving 27 years, 17 of those years having been spent in solitary confinement.

Speaker 2 That is so long.

Speaker 2 It's crazy.

Speaker 1 And they say that that informed that when he was like, hey, look, you know, after that last plan in, you know, the 90s, he's like, look, I swear I'm not doing it anymore. Like,

Speaker 1 so.

Speaker 1 Michelle is now in his 70s and he's been true to his word. He's a law-abiding citizen.
He is still happily married to Jamila.

Speaker 1 In fact, they've both written their own autobiographies in French.

Speaker 1 Nadine, who seems to have returned to living a private life, also has written an autobiography.

Speaker 2 Yeah, everyone, make that money. Yeah.
Make that autobiography money.

Speaker 1 Tell your helicopter lesson story.

Speaker 2 Tell your story before someone fucking tells it for you. Yeah, you might as well.
Yeah, it's called Stay Sexy and Don't Get Murdered.

Speaker 1 And it's available in audiobook and hard copy.

Speaker 2 That's right.

Speaker 1 The title of Michelle's book translates to Loved Saved Me from Sinking. And the love, of course, is Jamila.
Okay.

Speaker 2 But then there's a little helicopter on the cover.

Speaker 1 Today, Michelle is a very media-friendly guy. He's given countless interviews to French reporters and documentarians.

Speaker 1 And in one interview, he's asked by a producer what he'd say to a young man who wishes to follow in his footsteps. Michelle responds like this.

Speaker 2 Oh, God.

Speaker 1 Who am I to lecture him? I think I'd say, go on, jerk.

Speaker 1 Go on, jerk if you have the balls.

Speaker 1 But you have no idea what a high price you'll pay. And so if you lose your balls, you'll end up rotting in your own bitterness.

Speaker 2 So go right ahead.

Speaker 1 End quote. And that is the story of the many prison escapes of French criminal Michelle Vajour.
Wow.

Speaker 2 That's the Frenchest quote I've ever fucking heard in my life.

Speaker 1 And that is our theme for 2025. Go ahead, jerk if you have the balls.
But if you don't, zip it.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Wow.

Speaker 2 That was something else. That was fun.
Flirty.

Speaker 2 French. French.

Speaker 1 All the things, the three Fs we're looking for.

Speaker 2 That's right. Wow.
Great job.

Speaker 1 Thank you. We're back, baby.
Yeah, 2025.

Speaker 2 All right. Hey, so I don't remember how we're ending this now.
Do you? Well,

Speaker 1 we can just end it like that. We could.
Do you want to do one of these? Let's do one.

Speaker 2 So we asked you guys.

Speaker 2 Your last week. Well, no, it says it at the top of this page.

Speaker 2 Your last week are like five weeks ago. We asked you, instead of what are you even doing right now, we asked you what you're excited for and what you want to manifest in 2025.

Speaker 1 Did we use the word manifest?

Speaker 2 Probably.

Speaker 2 Sounds like us. So let's just each do one.
You guys sent us a bunch and we fucking love that. Thank you so much.
You can keep sending them because maybe we'll keep doing these. Here, I got one.

Speaker 1 Okay. This is from Sid Scott Photo from Instagram.
And Sid Scott Photo says, What am I even doing in 2025?

Speaker 1 Proudly stepping into the role of the first woman president for the University Photographers Association of America.

Speaker 1 Established in 1961, the UPAA is committed to photographic excellence through continuing education of higher ed photographers. That's cool.

Speaker 1 And then it says, despite the name, our membership spans the globe and this awesome organization has built a culture of support and skill sharing like no other group I've been a part of.

Speaker 1 I'm excited to continue to foster equity, professionalism, and camaraderie in my new lead her ship role. And it's her as all cat.

Speaker 2 I get it. Did you get it?

Speaker 1 Remember, when the idea of taking something on seems scary, look closer. You're likely being presented with an opportunity for personal growth.
Sidney Scott, president, UPAA.

Speaker 2 I love it. And I'm going to tell my sister to join.
She's a photographer, professional photographer.

Speaker 1 Nice. Tell her to pretend she's in college and then she can go to the college.
Oh, no, no, no. I think it is.
Okay.

Speaker 2 Well, she went to college. So maybe

Speaker 2 you can be a,

Speaker 1 she could be a, what do you call her? Mentor.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Mentor.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Okay.
Mine is from our email, and the title is 2025. She's so so cute.

Speaker 2 It says, hello. Today's my birthday.
And I just listened to you ask what I'm excited for in 2025. According to the ever-decreasing life expectancy in women, I am halfway through this life.
Wow.

Speaker 2 And I'm oddly pumped, usually sad about my age. It hit me today.
All the years I've lived, I get to live that same amount. And then it says plus some fingers crossed emoji.
It's so true. I love that.

Speaker 1 Sorry, how old is this person?

Speaker 2 I don't know, but I get it because like I'm 44 and it's like, if I live to be like 90, I still have another full lifetime to live if you're lucky yeah i am lucky turns out and i am got you

Speaker 2 and then it says with people i am choosing in a place i love with a clear mind and heart that's the best part you don't have to go through childhood again yes that's right you get to be informed this time right so it says i recently joined a group of 200 plus black american women we get together and chat and share resources suggest doctors and safe practices we are calling ourselves the 92 percent and the support is out of this world Nice.

Speaker 2 It's a beautiful place to be and a loud reminder that we haven't met everyone we will love.

Speaker 2 Nice. How lucky are we to be growing old? Thank you for helping us learn and grow.
Hello, 2025. May she do us right.
Amen. Much love and strength, Kiana.

Speaker 1 Kiana, that is what we are looking for. That's the energy we're looking for.

Speaker 2 That's for the energy we were looking for. That was the energy we were looking for.
That was it. What about you? What are you manifesting in 2025? Everyone, send us fucking a message.

Speaker 2 Yeah, please.

Speaker 1 Let's like, I think, I can't remember who I was saying this to, but my, the my manifestation is like, I think it was Scotty Landis on New Year's.

Speaker 1 It was just kind of like, I don't know, maybe I'll get extensions and like become a party girl. Like, I just want to keep it light.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 It would be fun to just have more fun and like be intentional about fun. Yeah.
Especially if things are going to get hard.

Speaker 2 Yep.

Speaker 1 It's like, and we all feel we have, we've done enough fear. We've done a lot enough like.

Speaker 2 We've done enough girl bossing and bad bitching and hustling and scaredy cat stuff like right yes now.

Speaker 1 It's just fun time. Let's do some fun and die mad haters

Speaker 2 Stay salty

Speaker 2 now.

Speaker 2 Oh, no, that's

Speaker 1 Thanks everybody.

Speaker 1 This is our real New Year's. It's real New Year's for us now.
So happy new year. Thanks for listening.
Thank you.

Speaker 2 Stay sexy. And don't get murdered.
Goodbye.

Speaker 2 Elvis, do you want a cookie?

Speaker 1 This has been an exactly right production.

Speaker 2 Our senior producer is Alejandra Keck.

Speaker 1 Our managing producer is Hannah Kyle Creighton.

Speaker 2 Our editor is Aristotle Acevedo.

Speaker 1 This episode was mixed by Liana Squolace.

Speaker 2 Our researchers are Maren McClashin and Allie Elkin.

Speaker 1 Email your hometowns to myfavorate murder at gmail.com.

Speaker 2 Follow the show on Instagram and Facebook at MyFavoriteMurder. Bye-bye.

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