Kylie on Opening Up About Pregnancy Loss, Plus-Size Labels & Being a Type C Mom with Ashley Graham | Ep. 38

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Not gonna lie, last week in my episode with Caleb, my collar was so drunk.

I can't stop seeing it in clips.

It's bothering me so deeply.

This week, I made sure my collar and shirt fit better.

So there's that.

Let's get this podcast started.

Welcome back to Not Gonna Lie, a Wave Original, brought to you by Liquid IV.

I'm your host, Kylie Kelsey, otherwise known as the Lady with Four Kids Who Talks.

An enjoyer of scruffy beings.

Shout out to my first love, the Philly Fanatic and Irish Wolfhounds.

Now I have my husband.

It's like a trifecta.

And officially, the mother of a six-year-old.

Oh no.

Give me a second.

I just did my mascara and Queen Emma knows it took like

a good amount of time.

Happy birthday, YE!

Oh my god, that's so sad.

I can't, that's so sad.

It's sad and happy.

Also,

it's weird to be 24 with a six-year-old.

That's weird.

A weird phenomenon.

Wyatt picked out a cake with Ariel on top.

She wants her specifically with when her tail is sort of flippy at the end, and she wants to make sure flounders there.

Also, when I was picking out decorations with her, she was deeply offended by the fact that I thought a mermaid decoration was sufficient.

And she looked at me and said, I didn't say mermaid, mom.

I said Ariel.

So, coming up on today's episode, the Phillies' first playoff game is this weekend, which means it's the perfect time to get honest about one of the most exciting phenomenons in all of sports: Red October.

After that, I'm going to be joined by supermodel, designer, entrepreneur, and advocate for body confidence.

You guessed it, someone else I have no business talking to, Ashley Graham.

But first, the Phillies have officially clinched a buy in the playoffs, and their first game is this Saturday.

So, for any real ones who don't know the lore of Red October, I'm going to get honest about it right now.

Can I Be Honest is brought to you today by our friends at Peloton.

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Red October, for those who don't know, is when the Philadelphia Phillies make the playoffs.

It is an environment that is unmatched.

Okay.

That stadium, Citizens Bank Park, ends up being good vibes only.

And

I swear the electricity that the players can feel from the stands end up in their bats.

Okay, I'm not saying that we take part, but I really feel like we might have something to do with it.

A couple years ago, Jason and Travis went to Red October.

We saw a couple home runs at that game, to be clear.

I was at the game with Jason and Travis, but you guys know I love to sink into a hedge.

So I was actually at the back

so that they could be at the front.

And to whoever sniped me and put it on TikTok,

that was rude.

I was minding my own business.

And when the Jumbotron hit the two of them, I was nowhere to be seen.

Because that's how I like it.

The best Phillies playoff game I've ever been to was the game where I met Charlie Manuel

and his wife, Missy.

For those of you who don't know, Charlie was the manager of the team when the Philadelphia Phillies won the 2008 World Series.

I always said growing up that if I met,

let's say, Beyoncé,

I wouldn't cry.

I would be excited to meet her, but I wouldn't cry.

If I met Charlie Manuel, I would cry.

And I can confirm that I teared up.

It was embarrassing.

I was pregnant and I did blame it on the fact that I was pregnant, that I was tearing up.

But in the picture, I'll see if I can send it to Queen Emma.

In the picture where I met Charlie Manuel, you can see my forehead vein popping like you wouldn't believe.

It was embarrassing

to a degree that I cannot even explain.

He is lovely, and I love him, and it's lovely.

And go, Phil's.

My favorite Philly right now is the Philly Fanatic.

Also, oh my gosh, last week, Benny was looking for something and she said the Fanagic instead of the fanatic.

And I said, you know what?

He is magic.

And that's how I feel about that.

I'm so glad that my love of him has made its way down into my children.

That's how you know it's real.

That's it for Can I Be Honest, brought to you by Peloton.

Next up, Doom Scroll of the week.

First up on Doom Scroll, I've mentioned being a Type-C mom on this podcast, but I just stumbled across a TikTok that perfectly describes what that actually means.

Queen Emma, the clip, please.

The flounder doesn't go in animals, he goes in people and characters.

The characters, I can see why you do that, though.

Thanks so much for having us over.

Sorry, neither of my kids have shoes.

I don't own a baby nail clipper.

I usually just kind of nibble mine babies off.

I can do it for yours if you feel comfortable with that.

No, get shoes that don't need socks.

I don't know where any clean socks are.

Oh my god.

This TikTok made me feel so seen.

The

balance between

having some things done

very

well

and thought out and prepared, and other things being like, No, you need to wear Crocs.

I don't have socks, I don't know where the clean socks are, or like the clean socks are in the dryer and they're not dry yet.

I need you to put on sandals.

Like, let's get this show on the road.

At any given point, if you look at my car, it is the epitome of a type C mom.

I have

a varying

option of sizes of diapers.

So at any given, like right now, I can guarantee you that there is at least one size two diaper,

probably three to four size three diapers, two size seven diapers,

and a handful of fours.

Now, is anyone still in a two?

No.

Is anyone still in a three?

No.

But also, if you fold down the front of a seven far enough, it can fit a four.

And that's on being a type C mom.

They're jackets also in the car.

Because why would we put on our jackets in the house to walk 10 steps out the door to the car, which most likely myself or my husband has started to warm it up?

to then take off your jackets to then get buckled in your seat.

That doesn't make any sense.

Next on Doom Scroll, I just discovered TikToker Betsy Kenny, who has a series of hilarious Philly ASMR videos.

And I needed to show the real ones her Philly accent.

Queen Emma, the clip, please.

How you doing on?

What parish did you go to?

Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday.

Was his brother in your grade, Broys Harper?

It's all accurate.

All of those are things that I have heard or said

multiple times in my life.

Maybe with an interchangeable name,

but absolutely things I have heard or said in my life.

The

slight scraping noise you can hear for our audio listeners, that is water ice.

That's her

white plastic spoon.

in her Rita's water ice.

The accent, I'd give it a good 11.

Speaking of Philly accents, Queen Emma is telling me that there's a new Philly show.

It's called Task.

It's from the creator of Mera Vistown, who is actually from Berwin, I believe, which is very, it's not far from us.

You can throw a rock and hit it.

I will watch.

I do know that the beginning of

the first episode,

we went hard.

Okay.

She, the daughter, has a job.

The job is at a water ice place.

It feels like we went a little aggressively obvious in the beginning.

But from what I've heard so far, I like it.

I haven't gotten that far in, though, so let me, I'll get back to you on that.

That's it for Doom Scroll of the Week.

Next up, we had an incident.

happen recently.

It really was.

It was a sad day in our house.

And it made me want to bring back our segment, Tiny Human Question of the Week, brought to you by Perplexity.

Anyone with kids knows that kids ask a lot of questions, that it's a lot of questions.

And it's not always just why,

why,

why, but it's often followed up with that.

Every single one gets at least two whys.

Yep, we're answering a lot of questions in our house.

This tiny human question of the week,

well, it got a little dark.

It got a little dark in our house.

We were coming home from school pickup, and Wyatt and I were walking up the front walkway, and there was a butterfly.

And he or she

was only flapping one wing.

And

needless to say,

we took the butterfly inside.

We offered the butterfly some sugar water, which it did indulge in, and then we took it back outside to lay peacefully under the bushes where it said its goodbyes, if you will.

And we had to have a brief service for the butterfly.

Now, Ellie wanted to say a prayer,

but

she launched into

something else

that resembled the Pledge of Allegiance.

I pledge the naked to the butterfly.

Where does he live?

I see.

In nature.

In nature was my answer.

So let's get Ellie a real answer to this question.

Queen Emma, can you please pull up perplexity and ask, where do butterflies live?

I said in nature.

It was the fastest I could think.

But I was stumped stumped because I didn't know.

I didn't know how deep we needed to get in that moment.

She was deep in her prayer, aka Pledge of Allegiance to the Butterfly.

So some other answers, perplexity is telling me I could have given forests, meadows, prairies, woodlands.

These are great options.

Coastal areas, including sand dunes.

I did not know that.

That's actually interesting.

Key requirements, warm climates and sunlight for activity.

Dude, same.

Host plants for caterpillars to feed during the larval stage.

So here's the deal.

That would be milkweed.

I know that.

A couple years ago, we planted milkweed to try and attract the butterflies.

Now I know I can go back to Ellie and talk to her about the fact that they live many places and we can dive a little deeper into that outside of again her pledge of allegiance to the butterfly.

That does it for tiny human question of the week brought to you by Perplexity.

Now before we get to our guests, all the real ones know this is generally a very light show, something fun to take your mind off of things, but I've also shared that I started this podcast to be able to bring attention to issues I genuinely care about.

And another cause that I care deeply about is women's health.

And October is Pregnancy and Infant Loss Awareness Month.

I will start this segment by saying that if this is a sensitive subject for you, you may want to skip ahead.

It's always available in the description of our show that you can actually click ahead in minutes to the next section.

So please be advised that this is where I am going to discuss my miscarriage, which I previously mentioned on the show.

But I wanted to share some more details because

when I experienced my miscarriage, I felt like a bunch of people came forward to support me and

offer words of encouragement or love.

And in so, they divulged that they also had experienced losses.

And it is interesting how sometimes it takes you experiencing a loss for people to open up about their own.

And I don't necessarily think that we should always have to be prompted to share what is very, very normal

in trying

to grow your family.

Starting from the beginning, Jason and I started,

that sounds so,

it sounds weird to say that you're trying to have a family because it just means that you're doing the deed

without protection.

That's exactly what we're doing.

And

after

a few months of trying

without success, we had our first positive pregnancy test.

I say we.

Jason didn't pee on the stick.

I had my first positive pregnancy test.

I believe it was in August

of 2018.

I went to appointments.

Normally,

I went to my, I think it was a six-week appointment.

And

the baby was measuring what would have been a few days late.

And they said, it's still within normal limits.

We will see you back for

your 12-week appointment.

And

I scheduled it for the week following that, which would have been my 13-week appointment, because we had travel plans.

We were planning to go when the Eagles played in London

and then follow that up during their bye week immediately after in Ireland.

So

we were going with family.

It was going to be

a time where we were around everyone.

And so

we,

I was very much aware of

the rate at which people lose pregnancies.

And so I was very guarded about telling people outside of my immediate circle.

And

I

ended up

by the time we went to London, I was supposed to be 12 weeks.

And I

we made it a point to

surprise Jason's mom and dad when we were there by pretending to take a photo and telling them

that we were expecting.

Jason's mom and dad with a video.

We also surprised

Jason's Aunt Judy

and

his grandmother, Grandma Mary,

when

we were in Cleveland.

We

surprised Travis with little baby booties.

All of these interactions

were recorded

for like memory purposes.

And

I think there was the thought process was like, yes, maybe one day we'll sort of clip them together and share them.

I emphasize the fact that like this still hurts after having four children because

it does.

And it's okay

for people who are still in their journey and not yet

having gotten over the hump

of

like getting to meet your tiny humans that you're making,

I am so sorry

for people who are

who have experienced loss and who still have gotten to meet some of their tiny humans.

I am also sorry because it doesn't not hurt

When we got back from our family trip to Ireland, I went to my regularly scheduled 13, what was supposed to be my 13-week appointment, and I went into one of the regular rooms, not the ultrasound room, and

they tried to do the Doppler.

And

the minute I would say it felt like everything went into slow motion

and they could not find the baby on the Doppler.

And

at 13-ish weeks, they should.

And the nurse that was doing it was so sweet and very quick on her feet to say, like, oh, sometimes like they hide down below your pelvis.

We will take you in for an ultrasound and we'll be able to find them better.

And

I could just tell.

I don't, I don't know if it was like doom and gloom of like I was almost expecting it

or

what, but I remember being like, oh, there

isn't a heartbeat.

Like you didn't find one because there isn't one.

I'm trying my best not to let it get to like a full gasping situation.

So they quickly took me into the ultrasound room and did

a vaginal ultrasound to confirm that

there was.

I have literally told this story so many times.

They confirmed that there was no heartbeat and they estimated that the baby had stopped developing between, I believe it was nine and ten weeks.

So they couldn't tell me.

Essentially, I had had what you would refer to as a missed miscarriage.

It means that your body did not realize that the pregnancy was no longer viable.

And so

the shitty part is that you still have the placenta, which means you're still getting the hormones.

And so you still feel like shit and you still feel like you're pregnant.

And

you're not.

And so

I ended up

it was a shitty day.

It was a shitty day because

it was Jason's birthday.

And I call, I still remember my OB, of course.

I speak very highly of them every chance I get because I love them dearly.

And this was one of the reasons that I fell in love with them as human beings.

But my OB

was very calm and very supportive and delivered the news in

the kindest way that she possibly could.

And

I

ended up,

because of how far along I was and because of potential risks with other options,

we scheduled a DE for two days later that Wednesday.

I still remember going to the car

and calling my mom,

which is not a good idea when you are heaving, crying in the car.

But I called my mom and told her that I couldn't tell Jason

because it was his birthday,

which

seems very silly.

It seems very silly because obviously I'm going to tell my husband what happened.

And I did.

And it was hard for both of us.

I will say that

having

had that experience then messed with my brain for every consecutive pregnancy.

So for Wyatt, we did not share that we were pregnant until I was after 20 weeks.

I, for consecutive pregnancies, waited till I was at least 16 weeks.

I googled almost every week

what the percentage likelihood was that a baby could survive,

which

sounds really dark.

I literally did it for Finn.

It's fucking, we're fine.

Here we go.

The things that helped me get through it were talking about it.

I am a person who is an open book, obviously.

I

talked about it with my mom, who also had experienced a loss.

I talked about it with just about everyone.

Because since that point, I have had friends or people that I know who have experienced a loss.

And like I said, it just, it never leaves you.

And I always like to tell people:

comparing

miscarriages, comparing infant loss, comparing any of this between women, comparing is apples and oranges.

It is

scarring and

stays with you in a way that is yours only.

And whether you have a loss at six weeks or 13 weeks or

whenever,

that loss is real.

So

I think it's important

to

have people around you that

understand what you're going through and who are in on the struggles that you're having and feeling.

And

I think it's really important to have an open dialogue with your doctors.

I'm so sorry if you've experienced this.

Like, truly sorry,

because it sucks

and there's really no other way to say it it just sucks this October and actually every month of the year women's health should be taken seriously and prioritized so that every woman going through something like this can get the care that she needs I will be donating to some organizations that have made this their mission and I hope that you will do the same we're going to take a quick break here and then return to today's amazing guest.

She's the perfect example of a woman uplifting other women, which we're all about around here.

Guys, it's Supermodel Ashley Graham coming up next.

NGL is sponsored by Liquid IV.

We're fully into fall here and finally getting back into a routine with the girls in school, Jason back to broadcasting, and Finny still attached to me pretty much all day, every day.

It's fine.

She's comfy there.

And you might be wondering, with all that going on, how on earth do I lock in for this podcast?

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She's the supermodel whose message of body confidence and inclusivity truly changed the world for the better.

You've seen her walking on the Victoria's Secret Runway at every fashion week on the covers of Sports Illustrated, Vogue, and Glamour.

She's also an entrepreneur with a brand new clothing line and a fellow mom.

Ashley Graham, welcome to Not Gonna Gonna Lie.

Thank you.

I'm so happy to be here.

I'm not gonna lie.

We have actually been in the same room together.

Okay.

Was it

really?

Did we talk?

Did we interact?

No, we did not.

Was it at a Sports Illustrated party or something?

It was not.

It was at Alberta Ferretti.

Oh, at the Runway Show?

It was.

Oh, wow.

Wait, was it last year?

It was two years ago.

That's crazy.

Yes, you were wearing this incredible leather jacket.

Yes, I remember.

That was a wild room, though.

That's not like necessary.

Oh, it was a room.

You like run up to like say hi to somebody or anything.

No, and also when we went after the show, like behind to see Signora Ferretti.

Yes.

I was in the midst of trying to figure out how the fuck to say nice to meet you in Italian.

And I had my friend Elena repeating it to me so many times

that I could, like, I genuinely, like, I had blinders on.

I was like, I say it again.

Say it again.

How do you say it?

Say it again.

Piecere.

Pierrecere.

Okay.

I could be messing that up if you speak Italian.

Pretend you didn't hear that.

No, it's okay.

I don't.

My husband does, so he makes fun of me all the time.

Well,

I said it well enough that when I said it to Signora Ferretti,

she then proceeded to speak to me in Italian.

I'm like, no, no, no, no, no.

That's all I've got.

I don't know a single other word you just said.

You're like, pasta.

I'm, yeah, I'm like, I'm so sorry.

I actually, pizza, I don't know.

I got nothing.

Uh, grazzi, I don't know.

Wait, so how often do you get to go to runway shows?

Never.

Literally, it was my one and only.

So, a dear friend of mine, she uh works works for IFA.

Okay.

And

she was like, I feel like this is pulling you out of your comfort zone.

You got to come to this runway show.

And so I ended up getting to see

Alberta Ferretti and I also saw Mosquino.

Major.

It was so, it was one of those experiences where I absolutely had no business being there, but it was unreal.

It was so cool.

Wait, why did you have no business being there?

I am the least fashionable person you will ever meet in your entire life.

Really?

I wear athleisure

every single day of my life.

Every single day of my life.

Do you wear a sports bra every day?

Yes, I do.

Do you ever just get, do you ever feel like, I just want to put on like a bra?

Well, here's a fun fact.

Can't wait.

Between children.

Oh, yeah, which you've had a lot in a short amount of time.

Yeah.

And prior to children, I was part of the itty-bitty titty committee.

Some would say I was the president.

Oh, like, are we like talking like, is that you?

Yes.

That's me.

I was told in sixth grade that I was so flat I was jealous of the wall.

So there's that.

And

I'm laughing with you.

Yeah.

No, it, uh, so what I did have

between breastfeeding children,

it made it clear that that had left as well.

And so I literally

could put, well, I'm breastfeeding right now.

Oh, because you just had a baby.

I did.

She's six months old.

I know.

But it got to a point where when I put on a regular bra and raised my arms,

I actually had nothing to sit in the cup to keep the bra

down.

Oh, okay, the visual.

And you're like taking me through.

You're welcome.

These are things that I've never had to think about before.

What happens when you're done breastfeeding?

You you just get pregnant and then you're like on to the next thing oh

i have four children you watch

my universe will hear you

right

no are you guys done are you like going are you like gonna

i i i don't know i'm i mean i'm six months postpartum i think that i'm done i think

i think

Wow.

I think I never want to say no because then I feel like the universe is going to hear me.

And then I'm going to sneeze and get pregnant.

You're going to get pregnant.

Like, you know, you know, those people that are like, I'm going to go into, because you have four girls, right?

Yes, I do.

Like, I'm going to go into

the boy, which is.

Don't worry.

I'm going to ask you about that because I do want to know if you receive it on the opposite side.

Yes, I do.

That's why I'm asking you because I know you should have the answers.

It's so dumb.

I know.

It is dumb, but it's also like.

I get it because I think sometimes people don't know what to talk to you about, especially the ones who don't have kids.

You know, if you don't have kids or if you only have one kid, you're curious about people who have multiples.

Yes.

You know, because it is a curious conversation.

And

it's a sight to be seen over here.

That's for sure.

I also think that it's a tough question.

It is made harder by the fact that Do you think we haven't thought of that?

Do you think we haven't thought to ourselves like what it would be like to have the opposite gender in our house?

Do you know what I mean?

Like, not that I would, not that I'm chasing it or that I necessarily need it or want it, but the fact that people ask you as if it's not something that like you and your husband have probably discussed, like, what would it be like if a little girl entered our house?

That's the thing that when people say, oh, do you want a girl?

I'm like, yeah, I want a girl, but we're done having kids.

Like, it's just, there's, we look around sometimes and we're like, there's too many children.

Oh, well, you guys are outnumbered.

And

were your twins were second?

Yes, they were.

So we went from one to three right away.

I never know what it was like to have two.

Anybody that ever complains to me about having two i'm like i don't know what you're talking about sorry can't help you yeah we can't commiserate i've never felt that this is i do have a question about this for you because i please i am curious people say when you go from three to like one to three or no one to two is wild and then four

after three when you go to four that that it's just as easy or something

I have found that four

is feels very similar to three.

And is it because the younger three just all play together and they just do their best thing?

Okay.

Gotcha.

Yep.

All right.

Now, something I am personally very passionate about is talking about body inclusivity, especially for young girls.

Wow, you've got a little, like a whole squad.

You got to.

Very much so.

And

you are the literal model of that.

It's been eight years since your Sports Illustrated cover that made all the headlines.

How does it feel now, all these years later, to be known for that and the conversation that came from it?

Well, it's a lot of responsibility for sure.

And I'm proud to be a part of this community and to be spearheading so many different amazing opportunities as well.

It's just still so sad that there's A, not a lot of plus-size models.

B, plus-size curvy, voluptuous, whatever that word is for people, because everybody likes to be labeled something different.

And also,

the fact that brands, you know, in some cases were using a lot of Kirby models and now aren't.

Same with runway, same with advertising, media, whatever.

So it's an interesting place to be having seen like so much work be done and then so much of it still kind of like not sticking for whatever reason.

But

I don't take my job lightly.

I look at anybody who has ever given me their, you know, their story or a hug or a DM as like a part of my family in a sense of like, we're in this together.

For me, like I always look at everything with my glass half full and I'm a very positive person.

And so I just keep laser focused, move ahead, don't let the negativity get to me, whether it's the whole industry just saying like, where's the plus size models?

Where's the plus size fashion?

Guess what?

I'm going to go make it.

And I'm going to go fill a hole that that is just becoming to get bigger and bigger and bigger.

Guess what?

We're going to go fix the issue.

So, and it's really, I mean, it's amazing to know that there is such a major community of women who are banding together.

They're underserved, but they're banding together.

And they're saying, we want fashionable clothes.

We want affordable clothes.

We want to be looked at as

important as we are.

And

I'm happy to know those women.

Now, I,

in prepping for this conversation, read a quote of yours that I couldn't couldn't love more.

You said, I hate that I constantly have to discuss my body because I don't know any man that has to do that.

But what motivates me to continue is that I didn't have someone talking about their body when I was young.

It's so true.

I mean, what, you know,

in any introduction that we have, it's like, what, at what point have you ever said, and here comes my

big-boned friend John?

It's like, what?

Or like, and here's my 46-pant friend, Frank.

It's like, it just doesn't happen.

But when it comes to women, we're constantly judged on our exterior, whether it's our breast size, our waist size, our hip size, you know, whether we have cellulite or not.

Are we using Botoxin filler?

You know, how many hair extensions do you have?

And like, did you put makeup on today?

It's a constant, never-ending exterior judgment that is mind-boggling.

And, you know, as much as...

as I want to fight against it.

I mean, we all do it.

We're in this world of social media that has us us constantly flipping and judging ourselves, judging others.

And

I think that has a lot to do with it.

But

I'm ready for the day where we don't have to talk about our bodies

in a way that's like, you know,

that feels so derogatory in a lot of ways for me, at least.

I do think that.

It feels like women are always put into boxes of like, this,

you have to go under the label in which

the label that was created for you.

And it,

you having these conversations, you

standing up for the idea that we don't need to do that and that

it doesn't need to be negative

is so important, specifically for a household of four girls because

these are girls who I know in my own daily life, I have changed the way that I speak about myself and my own body in front of my own kids

to make sure that I'm giving them an example on an everyday basis of how I can speak positively about my own body

because I want them to mirror that.

And I've seen examples of it, which is incredible

and exciting.

Yeah.

That's one of the best things my mom ever did was she never spoke negatively about herself.

So the fact that you already know that you're changing your words in front of your daughters, I mean,

that's going to change everything for their future.

That makes me feel excited about

the fact that I've, I, because it is

right, Kylie.

Thank you.

Uh, it is, but like, sometimes it really is like a conscious effort to say out loud something more positive than what your brain is telling you.

Oh, yeah.

Especially dressing a postpartum body.

I was good.

I was going to say

in a postpartum body for six years.

Like,

so have I.

My oldest is going to be six in January.

And it's like, you know, your body completely shifts and changes.

And it's almost like, to me, it's almost unrecognizable when I look in the mirror.

Yes.

And, and, and having to shift my mind and even just, I'm like, golly, what's that advice I give girls all the time?

Um, now you mentioned labels earlier, things like plus size, full-figured, curvy, voluptuous.

The list goes on.

And you've said before that you don't like being labeled plus size.

How do you feel about all of these labels?

Is there, you said it yourself that there's like everyone has their own preference.

Yeah, I think that labels are,

it's a dangerous place to be in my opinion, especially like I started Molly when I was 12 years old.

And to be at that time, I was five, nine, I was a size 12, and they immediately put me in a category of plus size.

And I was like, well, what does this mean?

And

it, it marked me.

and and it told me who I was.

And my

my whole understanding of this world is that if if you're going to let people tell you who you are, then that's who you will be.

But you have to tell people who you are because this is a mean and evil world with people who want to dictate labels and want to put you in a box.

But it's your job to really figure out who you are and what you want to be and then command it.

So when I say I don't like to be called plus eyes, it's not that I don't love the community.

It's not that I'm not here writing for the girlies.

It's that I don't really think that we need to have a label because of the number inside of our pants.

And my skinny girlfriends don't do it.

My guys' friends and business partners don't do it.

Why do we need to start doing it just because we are

a much more voluptuous, curvy, you know, type of body?

Doesn't make sense to me.

No, it very much feels like it should just be that.

I mean, as women, I think we can acknowledge the fact that the spectrum of women's bodies is so, it's vast.

Like everyone, different height, different size, different build.

Some people have, have a bigger butt, some people have small boobs.

That was me.

You got the small boobs, and I got the big ass.

And here we are, girl.

Here we are.

You know what?

Better for it.

Here I am.

I just, I always say I could play field hockey better because I had a good range of motion.

Nothing was getting in my way.

But like, really, it's, it's one of those things where it's like, why can't we just be like, she is a beautiful woman?

period the end done yeah that's it i know

it's mind-boggling to me it's going to be interesting to um check back in with you in about 10 years when your girls are you know wanting to put on makeup and put on oh yeah clothes and all that stuff because i remember going through that like i remember wanting to show my midriff off and and you know pull my boobs out and and and do that and trying to Trying to explain to a girl that your worth is not wrapped up in your exterior, but we're here we are.

Like I'm a model.

It just so happens that my worth is wrapped up.

My job is wrapped up in my exterior.

So I have been given a privilege to talk about, don't let that happen to you.

But I've seen firsthand some of the most beautiful women in the world who are some of the most insecure as well.

Because you would think, and I could say some of the most famous girls that you would say, there's no way that she's insecure, but they are.

They've got rocking bodies and snatched faces and all of the above, but they still don't have worth in themselves.

So, you know, what I was saying about, you know, watching your girls grow up, it's like planning on training them to have no worth of their exterior is hard, but also knowing that you want them to feel good about themselves too.

It's like, it's the double-edged sword.

It's wild.

It is.

It's a pressure that women, I think, face every day.

And

almost unnecessarily, like it's a pressure we put on ourselves.

But also, like you're saying, like raising girls, girls, I feel an immense pressure to steer them in a way where they can have pride in their appearance, take pride in their appearance, but also not invest all of their worth in it.

Exactly.

So it's hard.

I can't imagine raising it.

It's going great.

I'm going to keep saying that until I believe it.

Okay.

Now, I'd love to switch gears a little and talk to you about fashion and modeling.

As a supermodel, you, of course, walk down some of the most prestigious runways in the world.

So, as a sports fan and not a model, do you do anything to psych yourself up?

Oh, yeah.

I mean, I'm that, I think I'm annoying backstage right before a runway show because I'm like this.

I'm like, ooh, ooh, ooh.

I'm also like the oldest lady in the runway now because I'm like, I'm like there with all these like 16, 18 years.

No, they must be aged out.

There might be a lot now.

They've like 18 to 25.

And I'm like, here I am.

I'm about to be 38.

I'm like, let's go.

Let's go.

Cause I'm also a sports girl.

I grew up playing soccer, basketball, and volleyball.

So I'm all about, you know, like,

we got this.

And they're just kind of like this, oh, who's the crazy lady over there?

Like,

she's getting her game face on.

Leave her alone.

It's exhilarating right before you walk onto a runway.

It's a wild thing to have everybody's eyes on you.

And a very like, whether the music is like

or like

you know like whatever you're giving it's giving all eyeballs are on you and don't fall and I've never fallen on the runway until

literally two days ago no

girl no

but I will say

was it a stumble or was it a full splat it was a full splat however however god is good because

it was okay imagine a square it was at hugo Boston.

I don't even think anybody caught it on camera.

So, imagine,

you come out here, you go boom, boom, boom.

And like, right here is like rows of people.

This last bit is like you're leaving and you're behind, like, equipment.

People can still kind of see you if they care.

And right there, it was like uneven, cemented ground.

And I went kerplap and it was on all fours.

And I gave it like a quick, like

a bend and snap, if you will.

I was straight out illegally blonde.

And I was like, there we go.

And we're back at it.

And the guy behind me,

I was, we hadn't spoken because he just wasn't talking very much.

And then he was like, are you okay?

And I'm like, no, I'm fine.

And then I had a couple of girls come up to me afterwards.

They were like, are you okay?

I saw you fall.

And I'm like, I'm fine.

I'm fine.

But thank God it wasn't in the, in like the main character runway.

Yes.

Because that would have definitely been on the internet.

Do you know?

I feel like we can apply the thought like pics or it didn't happen to this.

Like videos are it didn't happen.

And we're not challenging the internet.

We don't want to fucking see it.

It didn't happen.

We don't know what you're talking about.

But I do think this is the perfect instance.

And like if no one caught it, the girls came

and said, you sold out the dress.

That's it.

It's sold out.

I thought that was great.

That's amazing.

That is, that's honestly, that is,

that's, I always tell people the, the, I was not nervous about getting married.

I was nervous about walking down the aisle and having

so this feels like the fact that you thrive in that and that you just turn it on and go is

I always

in my head, it's like look hot, don't fall, look hot, don't fall.

You were busy looking hot and you didn't get to the don't fall fast enough.

It's fine.

Next time you'll have it.

Exactly.

I must have just like breathed a little too much at that point.

Jeez.

Oh no, that's that's crazy.

That is two days ago.

Yeah.

Now, once again, as a non-model, my knowledge of modeling pretty much is exclusively from

America's Neptop model as a teenager.

Are you an ANTM fan?

When I was in high school, yes.

Got it.

And did people say, because like you're tall and you get those pretty blue eyes, did they say like, oh, you should model?

Yes.

And then I had to explain to them that I was not built for that.

Okay, got it.

Because I don't like when people look at me.

Got it.

My answer was usually like, I

play field hockey.

Sports.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Like, I

don't, I wouldn't do that.

But yes, a number of people were like, oh, you should.

And I'm like, I probably shouldn't

because

no, thank you.

I'm not built for that.

I truly, I think that it's obvious that just because you're tall tall

does not mean that you belong on a runway or or a basketball court, right?

True.

It goes both ways.

My mom always said, like, tall girls are the best because we can, you know, she always like, she was always like reaching for stuff or like doing like something active.

And she's like, see, being tall is better.

Like, and she would also say to me, maybe this is something you could use.

Not, this is unsolicited advice, sorry.

But I remember, I have this, like, my, my butt does like a it has a side butt is what my husband calls it it's like you know this like meaty a little dip like right here yeah the hip yeah the hip dip love it i remember when i first discovered mine and i was like mom look at this what is this and she goes oh look i have it too and if you didn't have it you wouldn't fit into this family i was like oh and i

stand that until here i am in my late 30s and that is something i can't wait to tell my kids if my voice

if i have a voice say, mom, look, I've got a hip dip.

You're like, that's from Mama Dearest.

Thank you.

Now,

America's Next Hot Model.

Yes, yes, back to that.

That was a big deal.

You know, that's a lot of, like, that, I mean, that was a cultural moment.

I remember watching it growing up, too.

So when Tyra called and asked me to be a judge, I was blown away.

I was like, are you

sure?

Now, one of the things that I remember most from the show was when some of the models were asked to cut their hair.

I don't know why the makeover part of the show was always the most fascinating.

I think it's because they always chose the girl with like the most luscious, beautiful locks to be like

pixie cut.

I know.

It's so drastic.

I know.

Has anyone ever asked you to do something

like that where you were like, no.

Maybe?

I love that.

I'm so glad you dodged it.

Oh my God.

And if they would, I'd be like, how much money are you paying me?

Because

I'm not doing this for free.

Hell no.

No.

The crazy, I mean, I've worn like blonde wigs.

And when I was on Broadway, I had like a very weird wig on.

But that's like a whole, that's not even modeling.

But I've never, no, I've never, I do remember cutting my hair into a bob and then getting pregnant and then being like, oh my God, I'm going to be like pregnant and heinous and overweight and have a bob.

And then it actually was cute.

So I mean again,

Circling back to fashion, you have a brand new clothing line that's officially out today, October 2nd.

And I'm wearing it.

Hey, I love it.

It's not like when you're clothing and you feel like, and I get to lean into like how good it is.

That's so good.

You know, yes, and it's with JC Penny.

I didn't.

Yes, it's the Ashley Graham for JC Penny collection.

And it's available now exclusively at JC Penny in stores and online.

Tell me everything.

So full circle moment,

I have been, I was modeling for JCPenney as a catalog girl like way back before Sports Illustrated.

And so

they approached me about doing a collaboration and not just any collab, like a lot of people get to smack their name on something and say like,

did that.

But I've done collaborations in the past where the more involved I am in the design process, the more successful it is because

the customer can feel it.

And I said, look, if I'm going to do something like this, like I need, I need a new creative team.

I want to be able to be in the meetings, feel the fabric, like design with you guys.

And they said, well, that's exactly what we want to because we want to do a cultural shift when it comes to

plus sizes and the fashion at JCPenney as a whole.

We have designed a beautiful collection that is our fall collection.

And we've got each season has got a new drop but we started a 14 and we go up to a 32

and

we're starting at an OX we're going to a 5x

and I'm just really excited because to have affordable fashionable and

clothes that fit is you know you would think would be so easy to find and it's not

and

and I'm just really happy that I was able to make things that I wanted in my own closet selfishly and things that I know have been completely underserved to women who are, you know, in

most of my friends can't just go into a store and shop because the clothes aren't available for them.

So I'm really excited for the world to have a little piece of my creative juices with JCPenney.

Well, it's so exciting to know how much experience you have in the fashion world, that you are a resource yourself with all of the knowledge that you have built up over the years.

And so to be able to know that you actually

had so much in making this happen and the creation of all of these pieces, I feel like that speaks for itself to know that people are going to be crushing it in this collection.

I really think they are.

I'm excited.

I'm excited for everybody to like put their little JCP on and strut it because they're going to feel like a million bucks.

Now, I'd love to ask you another question about fashion and runways.

I remember seeing your post about the Victoria's Secret fashion show last year, which you made history for walking in.

You wrote, when Victoria's Secret first reached out, I'll be honest, I hesitated.

Their vision of beauty seemed narrow, as if everything they created was for just one type of body and it wasn't mine.

What ultimately made you change your mind?

At that time, I was, it took me a long time to say yes.

And because everything I do is really about alignment and making sure that it's, yes, it's for my brand, but it's also for the community and that I'm making the right decision.

And I never want to take a job just based off of the clout or the and or the money it has to be with intention

and um ultimately the reason i said yes is because i got on uh zoom at the then

which she's not there anymore but the ceo at the time and she told me she said we are making larger sizes we are going up into the g and h cups we hear you when you want you know you want to see a 42 44 band and that really was a promising thing for me just understanding that Victoria's Secret was making the efforts to do it.

And I understand, like, as an infrastructure and like a whole and a whole company, it is hard to just like boom, switch the sizes because they've got factories and all kinds of things that they have to go through the process and the hoops and whatever.

However, just knowing that that was the case and then actually seeing the sizes go up and change as I shot then a Mother's Day campaign for them the following year,

they stuck to their promise, and I was really grateful for that.

That's incredible.

And again,

you crushed it.

Thank you.

It was really cool.

I got to come up from the floor.

It was, you know, it was like,

boom, and then,

you know, unreal.

It was kind of like a, oh my God, this is happening.

And I'm almost butt naked.

What is going on?

They just had three children.

Holy shit.

You're like, yes, watch this ass.

Nailed it.

Now, speaking of three children, I'd love to circle back to motherhood.

It's something that I love to ask all of my fellow mom guests.

What is the best piece of motherhood advice that you've ever received?

Oh.

You might have heard this too.

And it's something that I tell moms and dads all the time.

But I always say to like the moms, I always say, mommy knows best.

And when I say that, it's like your gut intuition is always,

is always right.

Don't listen to your mom or your mother-in-law or your sister-in-law or your sister or the da-da-da-da-da-da.

It's like, or your neighbor.

It's like,

it's your child.

It's your gut.

You know what's best.

That's such a good piece of advice.

Now, I cannot thank you enough for coming on today.

It has been an absolute pleasure.

I

want to acknowledge the fact that you are carrying a level of responsibility.

I think that you express that you feel this pressure to hold strong for the community that you represent in curvier plus-size women.

And

being someone who has fluctuated in size, who has struggled buying clothes for height, for weight, for thickness, all of it, I cannot thank you enough for advocating for women, period,

and making sure that we all have the opportunity to look and feel as beautiful as we are.

So, and the fact that my girls get to grow up in a world where they have an advocate like you leading the way, I really, really appreciate it.

That's really nice of you, Kylie.

I appreciate that.

Thank you for sending that.

Of course, you can check out Ashley's brand new clothing line right now at JCPenney, both online and in-store.

And that's a wrap on another episode of Not Gonna Lie.

You can find even more clips from my longer conversation with Ashley on my YouTube channel on More Shit Monday.

I'll be back next Thursday with a brand new episode.

Follow Not Gonna Lie on all social media at NGL with Kylie.

Listen and subscribe wherever you get your podcast.

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