A Landmark Climate Bill, Alex Jones Owes, and Guest Isaac Fitzgerald

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Hi, everyone.

This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network.

I'm Kara Swisher.

Scott Galloway is the Howard Stern of podcasting, according to the New York Times, in that he's currently off in Private Parts Unknown.

So today, I'm joined for Scott Free August by actor, producer, and podcaster Sean Hayes.

Welcome, Sean.

Thank you for having me, Kara.

No,

this is my serious voice because we're just going to be talking about serious topics today.

We are.

We are.

But I want you to be funny because you are a funny guy.

Okay.

How much you got?

Yeah, okay.

So go back to the other voice.

So I want to talk a little bit about you.

People don't realize all the stuff you do.

Obviously, you're well known for being just jack on Will and Grace, but you do a lot of things.

You produce shows.

You produce everything.

Yeah.

And you're podcasting.

Yeah,

I started a production company like, I don't know, 15 to 20 years ago.

I was on the set of Will and Grace.

It was towards the end of the first run, as we call it, the first eight years before the reboot.

And I was looking around like, how did all you'd think I would have thought about this the first season, but it was the last season.

And I was like, how did all this happen?

How did it, who started this?

Who put this?

Who brought the donuts?

Yes, exactly.

These 300 people together to build this machine.

And I was like, that's fascinating.

It always starts with one phone call.

So who was that person?

And then I became really, really curious about building these, what I call machines of

shows.

And it just kind of opened up a whole new area in my brain, which is not very large to begin with.

Well, it's large enough because a lot of actors don't do this.

They sort of have a hit show and then they go off into the wilderness, essentially.

Yes.

Well, I needed a reason to get out of bed every morning because I saw the writing was on the wall.

When you're on a hit show, as I was so

lucky to be on, you kind of know that that's kind of what happens unless you really

dig deep and nose to the grindstone and really kind of figure it out as you go.

A therapist I had once said,

you seem like a figure-it-outer.

And I was like, yeah, it's called survival mode.

Like, I wake up every day in survival mode because my dad left when I was five.

My mom was working all the time.

We had to parent ourselves.

There was five kids, sometimes no food on the table, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

And I was like, oh, I have to figure this out.

And I'm gay.

So,

by the way, is that okay?

Which you, yeah, that's okay.

That's okay on this show.

Yeah, okay.

It's accepted.

Not with, you know, say Lindsey Graham, but we'll get to that in a minute.

So

she's in the same group.

She is, but she doesn't seem to want to talk about it.

Anyway, so you so you created these shows.

Explain the shows that you produce.

A lot of hit shows.

Yeah, well, I mean, there's several, luckily.

One was Grimm.

That was the fairy tales that came true.

And then that was on for a long time, like six, seven years, something.

Hot in Cleveland with all those fabulous girls, Betty White, Valley Bertinelli, Jane Leaves, and Wendy Malik.

And then Hollywood Game Night, which started right here in my living room and

that just turned into this game show with Jane Lynch hosting and then

we did some I don't know oh

what's it called history of comedy on CNN

you did that yeah and I'll never forget the time I flew out to CNN I got the six or seven a.m.

flight flew out to CNN in New York from LA did shot three commercials and flew back that night.

Yeah, that's what you got to do.

You got to figure out.

That's what you got to do.

That's what I That's work.

I don't know why

you work just as hard as I do.

I do.

I do.

I do.

I don't know what it is.

I know.

What is it?

I like it.

I love it.

I love it.

I don't, I don't, I, people ask me, someone read me that, you know, Paul Sanga says a quote that you'll regret all the time you spend on business.

I'm like, will I?

I actually like it.

You know what I mean?

I love that sentence started with somebody read me.

So people read to you.

Yes, they do.

They were trying to get me to work less.

It was some, it was a family member.

But I was like, sorry, I like it.

But wait, do you, are you one of the, this is a classic therapist question, but are you

because I've never been therapized, just saying, so here we go.

But I'm going to move in closer to the mic for this.

Do you, are you, do you worry that just the stillness worry you?

Does being still

worry?

Oh, no.

All right, never mind.

Moving on.

I like it.

I love being still.

I love being alone.

I'm, I'm very self-actualized, as many lesbians are, in case you're interested.

Oh, God.

I got to go.

Okay.

Okay.

But here's the deal.

Also, the thing that you are really a recent hit has been podcasting, which I can't believe because you came up to me.

I think it was in Provincetown.

You're like, should I do this podcast?

And then I explained it to you.

And you have like one of the top friggin podcasts.

Isn't that crazy?

I'll never forget that.

Because I was like, because you had one of the top podcasts.

And I was like, how do you do that?

No, no,

it is.

It's filled with smart people.

That's why I'm a little intimidated by this today because I'm supposed to be smart, but I'm smartless, which is the name of the podcast.

But

yeah, I remember that coming up to you and you were like well this is what you got you got to do this blah blah blah and you kind of laid it all out for me i was like god that seems like a lot of work

but uh but once you start it's actually kind of fun and easy and i mean it's still work but it's super fun yeah and you do it with your two uh friends yes jason bateman and will our nett uh we've been friends for over 20 years and um they're awesome i mean the funniest people

we're like brothers yeah and you've surprised each other on the show it's a great show

the conceit is that we one of us acts as a host every episode and brings on a guest to surprise the other two and people are like exactly people always say do you is that is that true are you really surprised yeah why why wouldn't it be true it's what's my line i was watching that the other night because there was a clip of lucille ball on what's my line it's oh you have all the so you're watching all the recent shows yes you're all up to date yeah i'm all up to date on what's my line so uh so one of the things that's really interesting about it is that you sold it then you sold it correct we leased it Leased it.

Okay.

What does that mean?

Well, like a car.

You either buy a car or you lease a car.

If you lease it, you have to give it back.

So Amazon Wondery leased the podcast and we made a deal for three years, which was great.

They're an amazing partner and we love them and it's been going, it's nothing but joy.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And you've been doing live shows.

It's been great.

It's been really, I'm so pleased.

Yeah, we went on tour in February of this year and we filmed.

filmed it as well for as a documentary so for discovery plus so that'll be exciting yeah that's exciting i'm sure david zasloff is very excited.

Anyway, so

before we go on, I want to go through a few things.

You understand the show.

I'm going to talk about various things and you're going to give me your thoughts on them.

And if you want to go off onto a tangent, which I know you're known to do,

that would be fine too.

So one of the.

I love that you just explained it like I was three.

Well, you are.

So I'm going to bring up a topic and we're going to talk about it.

And if you talk about something else, that's okay too.

And just make sure you finish your sandwich and your chips and your glass of milk before we're done.

I have too many children, Sean.

i have too many children i know how many kids do you have four four we just went on a trip to europe isn't that amazing oh you went to scotland yeah yeah why three of the four

i want to go there why why did you go there my wife's uh brother had a party in a castle because he had a a coven wedding and so this was the party part of it because my wife's brother had a party in a castle well there's no castles in la so no there aren't any no so we had it it was lovely we did falconry my my son was able to throw its caber through the caber you know the log that you throw between your leg over

something.

Well, that's called something different for me.

We did all the Scottish things.

We had haggis.

We did the whole thing.

It was falcon.

It was fun.

It was really good.

All right.

And so two, three of my four children met.

The other is in Amsterdam, and he met a girl who now has a girlfriend.

He was long distance.

No, no, they're on a program together in Amsterdam.

Oh, I thought they met there.

No, they did meet there, and now they're seeing each other.

And I keep getting adorable pictures of them.

So that's so cute.

By the way, if I ever had a second mom, I I would want it to be you.

Thank you.

Yeah, I mean it because your kids are so fantastic, which is such a sign of good parenting.

And my mom was great too, but I always think that about you.

Just like you are all of it.

You're smart and caring and loving and honest.

And, you know, you have rules and boundaries, but you're also loving.

I love it.

You would not have liked this morning with the potty training with the two and a half year old.

That was not.

That was like, go to the bathroom on the toilet.

No, you could talk to me like that.

Yeah, I know.

I know I could do it with you.

You'd be an easier person to potty train than two and a half-year-olds.

Anyway, so there's a new report in Bloomberg that says podcast hosts are charging guests to appear in their shows.

Some hosts charge guests up to $50,000.

Did you bring the check?

Yeah, I brought it.

Don't be, it might bounce, but

no, isn't that crazy?

Like,

I just read that.

I was like, wait, what?

People pay to be on podcasts?

Which I,

by the way, never happened.

That would be so disgusting on Smartless, on my podcast.

But, um, I don't understand.

I guess I can understand like

the desperation of needing the publicity.

And if you can't get on, I don't know, it's kind of like dating somebody.

If, if, if you're not good enough or wanted enough to be on, yet you'll accept a paycheck.

I don't know.

I think that's weird, don't you think?

It's called prostitution, but people have been doing it for years.

Like a lot of magazines, it's pay-to-play kind of thing.

So it's no surprise that it, oh, oh sure yeah oh i don't know from that i'm sure you've been in some magazine where it was more marketing than anything well i pay i know i pay for those magazines i don't pay to be in them yes i figured i figured so that was weird we don't neither of us pay just so you know we never pay we never have people pay us to be on the show although people really do want to get on podcasts like yours would sell a lot of books for someone or whatever i'm sure you have people but yours too i mean yeah i don't know if Would you ever do it?

I don't think.

Well, you don't need to do it.

No, no, never.

No.

You don't need to pay.

Though some people ask, it's really interesting.

I do a lot of events and they're like, what do you pay?

I'm like, zero.

How does that work for you?

That works for us.

You know, things like that.

How does that work for you?

How does that work for you?

That's one of my favorite.

How does that work for you?

Anyway, today we have a lot of things we're going to talk about.

Alex Jones owes a fortune to Sandy Hook parents, but will he pay up?

Also, the Senate passes historic legislation around climate change, while Indiana makes history for something far worse.

And we'll speak with author Isaac Fitzgerald about his new memoir, Dirtbag, massachusetts it's like i wrote it yeah exactly so first of all first of all hbo and discovery plus are merging not a surprise mr entertainment the product will be rolled out next summer warner brothers will start the process by cross-posting content to both services recently hbo max has been silently pulling down titles also canceling projects like bat girl yeah i'd love to know what your thought is and how hollywood's feeling about these what's happening at warner and i'm glad you asked because i speak for hollywood so yes i thought so yeah i'm like a one-stop shop uh

No, what I mean, I think it's super exciting.

I mean, it's like, yes, it's this huge conglomerate coming together to provide, like, I don't know.

I think it's going to be as big as Netflix.

And look, in the end,

it's so funny because now a lot of streamers are talking about ad support, like a tier of ad supported kind of stuff.

That's what Netflix is doing.

Yeah, which Netflix is doing.

I'm sure.

I think I read a couple others are doing that too, like maybe Disney.

I don't know.

And so it's like, oh, so it's just network TV again.

We're just now, it's just different how we get it.

So it's all, it's, isn't it funny how it's all the same?

But I think it's exciting.

I think the Discovery Plus or Discovery HBO thing is super exciting.

Think about all those brains coming together to create such incredible content.

I think.

Well, they need a lot of content, right?

So I don't know where Will and Grace is, for example.

Do you, do you know who it's been bought?

Do you get paid for when it goes on streamers?

Or is that ever considered?

Like, I, I, I, yeah, like something little, but little, but, but no one ever conceived of this.

Do you think about that when you're making shows, like where it's going and how

you know what?

Isn't it funny?

Sometimes you get like

you get information from agents or people in the industry of what streamers are looking for, of like, well, we're really focusing on, you know, procedural dramas or whatever the thing is.

But in the end, nobody knows.

what they want until they see it.

Like if I've heard like huge, huge names, which I won't mention here, getting passed on, like projects getting passed on everywhere.

And you're like, I don't understand why that is.

But so they must have some edict that we don't know about, but it's project to project.

And isn't it interesting now when you watch a show, people go, where do I see that?

I don't know.

Apple,

Netflix,

Disney?

I don't know where I saw it.

So you have to Google it.

So I think they have a branding issue with all of this content

when you don't know.

Yeah, there's, it's just like a cornucopia of.

Well, it's good for content creators like yourself because they need stuff.

I mean, one of the reasons they're merging is because they like Disney has an amazing IP library, essentially.

Yeah, and others

to an extent.

Yeah, and the others do to an extent.

But do you, when you're an actor, well, you're a producer and an actor, but when you're making these things, you kind of have to be multifaceted.

We did it honestly, truthfully, as a, as an excuse to see each other during COVID.

I mean, we were in our pajamas, zooming.

It was like, let's just do one.

Let's do three.

Let's do six.

And then we're like, I can't believe people find this interesting.

And then,

yeah.

So I think it's, I think people respond to our podcast the same reason yours or anybody else's authenticity.

And it's really, truly us just screwing around.

Right.

True.

That's true.

That's true.

It's happening.

But wait, go ahead, sorry.

Putting a button on that other thing.

It's kind of interesting, though, like.

Do you agree with that branding thing about streamers?

Because

I think they're confusing.

It's confusing to customers.

I mean, people know Disney and you sort of know a Disney movie.

But you don't you don't know the shows on Disney Plus.

You just know shows.

So my point is the show, this is my whole point.

Sorry.

The show becomes the star.

The idea, the title is now becoming the star.

And stars, sure, are still important to add to the ingredients.

But to me, the idea is

the reason why.

It'll be interesting to see how the gray man does, which is a lot, is chock full of stars, right?

By the way, I'm an idiot.

I don't know it.

What's that?

It's on Netflix.

It's with,

oh, it's now I'm totally, it's not Ryan Reynolds.

It's the other guy.

It's the guy who isn't Ronald Reynolds.

You know who it is.

You know who it is.

I have to look it up.

All right, whatever.

It's him.

Anyway,

so that's the problem.

You don't remember stars anymore.

But speaking of which, by the way, in some cases, they are.

Theaters are making a comeback.

AMC has narrowed its quarterly losses with thanks to summer blockbusters like Top Gun Maverick and Jurassic World Dominions.

So the first was fantastic.

The second was terrible.

Total revenue reached $1.2 billion up from $444.7 million last quarter, last year quarter.

Nicole Kidman has renewed her contract as spokesperson for the company for another year, just in case you were wondering.

Have you been going to theaters?

I have not.

I have been a tiny bit, tiny bit.

I saw, well, the ones you mentioned, I saw.

I thought Top Gun Maverick was incredible.

I do too.

I thought it was so good.

I do.

I think that's funny that Nicole Kidman, not funny, I just think good for her.

I don't know her at all, but good for her.

I just hope she wears another sparkly pantsuit in every ad.

Have you seen them?

I have.

I'd be surprised it's her.

I'm like, what is she doing up there?

Yes,

she's telling us to go back to this.

Isn't it wonderful to go back to the theater?

Thanks, Nicole.

Thanks, Nicole.

From the seats, you know, everybody's like, Nicole, sit down.

And then she sits down.

You know what I mean?

She sits down in the theater like she's really going to watch a movie.

But everybody in this town that makes the shit, they're like, no, they held cut and she got out of there.

Yeah, that's right.

And she works.

Speaking of hardest working woman in show business, she works really hard.

She's everywhere.

Oh, God, she's everywhere.

Yeah.

Did you see her on the prom?

Yeah, I did.

Did you like the prom?

I saw the Broadway show and I loved the Broadway show.

I thought it was incredible.

And yeah, I cried at the Broadway show because the girl gets the girl at the end.

I was

bawling my eyes out.

Yes, yes, yes.

And it's, of course, the woman who won the Oscar for was in it for

best supporting actress.

And I'm also blank.

I believe everyone.

Why can't it's because we're older?

De Bose or something like that.

Yes, yes, yes.

Ariana DeBose.

And so

I just wonder if theaters are really making comeback.

I, of course, famously predicted that it's never going to be the same post-COVID because young people don't go to them.

My kids don't go to them.

Your crystal ball never fails.

I know, that's true.

But I still think I'm right.

I still think I'm right.

They have to have these hits.

These are the things.

Well, no, nobody's going to go see, you know, remember the hours?

Remember that theater?

Yeah, the hours.

Nobody's going going to see that at the theater.

I don't know why I just brought that.

Such a weird movie.

Well, Nicole Kidman, that's why I brought it up because she's got a fake nose in it.

Yes, she's got a fake nose in it.

Yeah.

That was chock full of actresses being

all great.

Yeah, all Maryl Street.

That was really cool.

But you know what I mean?

Nobody's going to rush to see the new Downton Abbey.

And even though I would.

By the way, and did.

But that's a plain movie to me.

That's a plain movie.

Well, for me, it's a theater movie because I like it.

Okay.

Okay, all right, okay.

I only go to see Top Gun Maverick.

That's the only thing I'll go or that's over now.

So, what else are you going to see?

I know that's the next Marvel movie.

Well, do you see that?

Thor, I saw Thor in the theater, I saw Thor in the theater.

Oh, okay, great.

Wildly disappointed.

Oh, okay.

Well, yeah, okay, I can't comment on those things, but it was good in the theater.

I didn't see,

yeah, but we just saw, we just watched Buzz Lightyear, you know, that movie, yeah, because I was like, oh, I'll watch a Pixar movie, they're always well made.

And I watched it, I was like, Scotty's like, oh, it's on TV.

I'm like, in our house?

He's like, yeah streaming I was like so I don't go to the theater no that's how dumb I am I think that's the way it's going yeah for sure why why leave your house two more quick things axios will sell to cox enterprises 525 million dollars you lease they sold uh the founders will continue to run the company

wait i don't know any any of the words you said Axios is a media company and they came to me for breakfast they were they started politico and i said you should leave politico and start your own company and they just sold it for 525 million

to Cox Enterprises, Cox newspapers.

I'm just saying.

I know.

Okay.

Well, Cox ate it up.

Cox ate it up.

Come on.

There's all those easy jokes.

I'm just saying.

It's someone else I advised to go into their own business.

And they did.

But speaking of which, not such good news.

Let's get to our first big story.

Alex Jones must pay $45 million to the parents of Sandy.

I agree.

Sandy Hook, a victim, a singular one.

There's more cases cases coming.

The jury awarded that sum in punitive damages last week as Jones stood trial for defamation.

It was also decided he should pay an additional $4.1 million in compensatory damages, but Jones may get a break.

State law, Texas state law caps the amount punitive damages can be.

The trial judge noted the cap and said that it shows Texans quotes, don't trust our juries.

That said, there are other cases coming up in states like Connecticut where there aren't caps.

And this jury did say what a lying piece of shit he is.

I mean, I think that's really the point.

Isn't that amazing?

I mean, and by the way, did you know he has children?

Yes, I did.

So, like, what are the, that's what's amazing to me that he found a wife and kids that support him through all the lies, I guess.

Well, he, I think they have some marital problems from what I understand.

A figure.

Yeah.

But I mean, like, he still has to pay the 4.1.

Yeah, but that's nothing to him.

No, well, it is.

He keeps hiding money all over the place, too.

He's trying to declare bankruptcy, et cetera, et cetera.

But he faces two other cases, one of which is in a state where I think it could go quite high.

So let me ask you something because you're 80,000 times smarter than me.

Do you think that

because of this decision by the jury and the judge and the kind of high-profile notion of this case that's all about kind of all about lying to make money?

Right.

Is it the beginning of a kind of

lesson to be learned in the country that we're going to come after you if you lie as much?

No, I think that

there's situations like alex jones which are particularly egregious i interviewed one of the fathers of one of the kids killed at sandy hook noah uh posner was killed there i interviewed his father len posner and in this case he's he's lost because he of the damage he in that the families got because of him and not because of copyright or anything else which is a silly way to try to beat someone like this because it should be because of the damage he caused um you know i think oh i didn't know that okay yeah so it's really difficult i think one of the things that happens is unless they're stopped, it's very Trumpian.

Unless they're stopped, they don't get stopped, right?

I mean, just today, General Milley, they put out his resignation letter that he never sent because he didn't resign, where he knew what Trump was doing, but then, of course, didn't say anything.

And I think that's what happens.

These people are emboldened, whether it's Marjorie Taylor Greene, whether it's Alex Jones, whether it's.

Whether it's Roger Stone, whether it's Trump himself, that lying seems to pay off.

You know, crime does pay.

But what's the, I mean, that's the scary part.

Right.

You're exactly exactly right.

Lying pays off.

And that governor that just won the election.

Carrie Lake.

And she's like, yeah, it's stolen.

It's stolen.

I mean, so let me ask you this.

Do you think that the people who vote for these people who are lying kind of know that they're lying, but they're like, you know what?

Whatever it takes.

No, no, because literally today my mother was like, what's this QAnon thing?

She watches OnlyFox.

So she does not aware of the damage that QAnon does.

So, no, I don't.

I think they believe it.

and of course it picks it sort of a scab of america the american public which is someone must be lying somewhere right this sort of weird conspiracy so you know it's it's it conspiracy theories are active but back to alex jones though like don't you think the people who believe the lies and harassed the families also are at fault because you have to be really really dumb to believe someone like alex jones Right.

Except, no.

I mean, it's sort of like talking by the January people who attacked the Capitol January 6th.

Some of them were quite malevolent.

Some of them were just going along for the ride, right?

And they just decided to trespass because why not carry around the gavel of Nancy Pelosi?

Why not, you know, wear an outfit and run around and sit in her chair or whatever they wanted to do.

So, no, I think a lot of them are not malevolent.

I just think they go along with it.

It fits in their worldview of that someone must be at fault.

And in general,

the malevolent players like Jones and Trump and others take advantage of that because they're suckers, right?

So they've got to be able to do that.

And then how does this story end?

Because

who is to say that the Democrats, if we lose,

all the hardcore Democrats aren't going to be like, well, it's a

stolen election.

You guys said it.

Now we're seeing it.

Well, the whole idea is to...

The whole idea is to create confusion and

upsetness, really, upset people.

And so I think that's the problem is discord and disruption

and the tools to use it are online tools, as we've talked about.

You and I have talked about this.

Online tools are perfect.

It changes people's people's mentality when they're seeing it online and so that's what these people existed since the beginning of the united states of america there was conspiracy theories right from the beginning the question is you know they had conspiracy theories about alexander hamilton but it just didn't get out that much right i mean right And that's the problem.

So Jones, I think, is probably done for,

but they keep trying to make these decisions about freedom of speech.

And he said it will affect every talk show host.

Of course it won't.

It will affect only the malevolent liars.

And we'll see.

to be, he's going to be in court forever now.

And I think the, in, in Connecticut, hundreds of millions of dollars.

And then they're going to find the money he's hiding because he's made, I mean, he's sold

supplements and different things like that.

So you don't think somebody like him who is so extremely wealthy can kind of just keep fighting the courts until he dies and keep all his money while he's still alive?

Well, I think he's, he's got a tinge of mental illness.

So yes, I think he can.

Just like Trump.

Why not keep going?

Why not keep going?

Why not keep saying it?

Because it raises money and does things.

I think eventually, you know, he had to admit in court that he lied.

And one of the things that was really interesting is this judge, he would say something, then

the attorney against him would say, well, here you are saying it.

And the judge says, you cannot keep lying in court, but you can.

You can keep lying in court, right?

Anyway, let's go on a quick break.

When we come back, we'll look into what didn't make it into the Senate's big bill.

And we'll speak with a friend of Pivot, Isaac Fitzgerald, about fight clubs and the Catholic Church.

Maybe he can give us some answers.

Oh, the Catholic Church.

Charlie Sheen is an icon of decadence.

I lit the fuse, and my life turns into everything it wasn't supposed to be.

He's going the distance.

He was the highest-paid TV star of all time.

When it started to change, it was quick.

He kept saying, No, no, no, I'm in the hospital now, but next week I'll be ready for the show.

Now, Charlie's sober.

He's gonna tell you the truth.

How do I present this with any class?

I think we're past that, Charlie.

We're past that, yeah.

Somebody call action.

Yeah, aka Charlie Sheen, only on Netflix, September 10th.

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off.

Sean, we're back.

It's finally happened.

The Senate passed a landmark climate health and tax bill over the week, and it was a big one.

The bill marks the largest climate investment ever by the U.S.

at nearly $370 billion.

But the victory wasn't without compromise.

Some of the casualties of the dealmaking: no universal puquet, no child tax credit, no free community college, no dental hearing and vision expansions to Medicare, no expansion of earned income tax credit, a cap, no cap on the price of insulin.

Republicans killed that one.

And Kristen Cinema killed the amendment that would close the carried interest loophole.

You know, Molly Jungfast tweeted, find someone who loves you the way cinema loves private equity.

Oh, my God.

So still, there's a lot left in the table.

What's in the bill, Medicare can negotiate directly with drug makers eventually.

Expansion of insurance premiums, subsidies for low-income Americans, tax increases on wealthy corporations, tax breaks and incentives for green technology and investments.

Just a few weeks ago, we thought this agenda was completely dead, so it's sort of half full.

People are saying half full, essentially.

Yeah, it's interesting.

You know, I'm going to say the dumb dumb thing.

I'm always going to say the dumb-dumb thing.

All right, please do.

I break it down to the lowest denominator.

So you look at that number what was the number 700 something

bill oh sorry it's uh 370 billion dollars 370 billion dollars think about this for one second because this is what i what we never get to see is okay one million dollars is a ton of money

10 million now think of 10 million oh my god now think of a hundred million dollars what a hundred million dollars then think of one

billion dollars and now this is a 300 plus billion they always say okay so this is going to go here but i would love to see a line item broken down on a leader sheet or whatever that is of where every dollar goes because

I never see like the street I live on is filled with potholes.

That's Los Angeles, right?

I know.

But like that's your new mayor.

You have a mayoral election.

That's who you should address for that one.

I'm super excited about that.

And, but I never see the change.

I always see the same homeless people.

I always see the same streets.

I always see the same infrastructure just falling apart everywhere we go.

So, and I know this is California, I know, blah, blah, blah.

But just like wherever I go, wherever you travel and I was just in Chicago, I was like, where's this money going?

Like, don't you want to see it broken down?

How is it?

Yes, it is.

Great.

Yeah, we're all supposed to celebrate that we got this passed.

Well, a version of it passed.

Great.

Now, where is it all going to go?

Because I feel like it just, they celebrate and then we never see it.

Right.

Well, that's a lot of people feel that way about the government, right?

That why are they getting all this money and doing nothing with it?

I think the question is, how much came out of it?

Because of, of political wrangling, especially with business interests.

They always seem to get the money they need.

Like

this amendment that would have closed the carried interest loophole would have made millions of dollars for the government.

And it didn't because one single senator.

held up the entire thing because of the way it's done because she happens to like venture capitalists and get a lot of money from them.

And so I think that's what happens.

And it's at the expense of, say, universal pre-K, which we all know would be a good thing.

Yeah.

But we can't seem to spend money on.

One of the problems

with these agendas is they're so big and they're so massive.

Yeah.

And the problems are even bigger that it makes it almost impossible to understand the benefits is what you're talking about.

Yeah, because the effective way to do it is to get smart people that you're doling this money out to run certain programs,

but it's like, you know, whether you hate them or love them, people in Congress, they're supposed to be smart.

They went to law school, blah, blah, blah.

So they throw the money at it.

But then the people that they throw the money at are like, oh, awesome.

I just got $10 billion to do whatever I want because nobody's looking down my, you know, anything, right?

Right, right.

I think a lot of that feels like that, unfortunately.

And I think a lot of, again, like we were just talking about, people feel overwhelmed by all the problems.

And when these, these bills come up, it's a question of whether it's positive or negative.

And then, of course, Republicans will use it to try to elect themselves, saying Democrats aren't effective.

And Democrats will see, look what we did for you.

Now, they don't do enough of that, you know?

So then, like, what do you feel?

Do you feel powerless when you get, when you read all this stuff and you've, what's that?

No, no, because you have a voice and you're using it on Pivot.

Guys, welcome to Pivot.

This is Kara Swisher and I'm Sean Hayes.

This is today.

We're going to be talking to an author.

No, you have a voice and you use it.

But I tell people, like, you know, I always say this, my friend Maria Shriver, who's one of the greatest people ever to live.

She's always like, she would hear me complain about whatever we're talking about.

And she goes, I know, I totally agree.

So what are you doing about it?

That's correct, Sean.

And I was like, Maria is right.

Right.

She calls you on the door.

What are you doing?

I love that.

What are you doing about those potholes, Sean?

Get out there in the backbone.

Me and like a construction suit listening to YMCA.

Yes, that's exactly that.

That's Trump's favorite song, by the way.

Speaking of right-wing things, there's two things that I'd love your thoughts on.

Indiana passed a ban on abortion last week, the first state to do so since the overturn of Roe v.

Way.

The ban has exemptions for rape, incest, and the health of the mother and some other qualifiers, but it still has Indiana businesses spooked.

Indianapolis Chamber of Commerce cautioned the bill can make it harder to draw tourists and conventions to the state.

When you go on tour, do you consider things like this?

For example, I pulled my pivot conference out of Florida because they don't say gay bill, for example.

Oh, wow.

That'll show them.

Yeah.

So

they got mad, though.

I'll tell you that.

No, that's good that you did.

Governor DeSantis' press person lost her ever-love and mind.

See, I love that you do stuff like that.

I just, this just shows polls are bullshit, right?

Because who would have guessed Kansas?

And now I wouldn't have thought Indiana would go this way.

And then I was kind of like, when I read that, I was like, Indiana, right next to India.

They tried to.

Don't you you remember?

They tried to many years ago when Mike Pence was governor.

And then Salesforce kind of forced them, forced their hand.

They've been silent here for years.

But don't you agree that like the polls are like, you know,

when you wake up in the morning, that's the news you read.

You're like, Indiana or Kansas.

It just, we don't, it just, we don't know what's going on in these towns and these communities and these.

I suspect the people of Indiana are not as positive about this as the legislators.

No, of course not.

Of course not.

Nobody is, by the way.

Right.

Nobody is.

The majority of America doesn't, you know, doesn't agree with it.

Right.

So would you pull out of a city?

Would you say we're not going to go to Indianapolis for the smartless tool?

That's a good question.

You don't want to like, you know, upset the people that are still your fans.

So it's, I understand the reason to pull out and the statement that that makes, but at the same time, your fans want to see you.

So it's not, and they probably think how you think.

So, you know.

I wouldn't go to Indianapolis.

I wouldn't go to Indiana.

Oh, no, I'm clear where I'm clear where you stand.

Yeah, I wouldn't.

I just feel like it's, you have to, you know, one of the things, the argument I had with the people from the DeSantis people, I was like, well, they kept saying I was woke and this and that.

And I said, you know what I am?

I'm a capitalist and I want to put my money where I want to just because you're a communist and want to force me to do things.

So I kept calling them socialists and communists, which upset them.

But I was like, I'm a capitalist and I don't feel like making money for your state, right?

I don't feel like doing it.

I just, it's my capitalistic decision to operate in cities and states that are more,

and you can't do it with everything.

You're right.

Like, what do you do if you're a business owner, with your sales force, you have employees there?

Right.

How do you deal with it?

It's true.

It is.

It's very tricky.

I, I, I love that you, you did that.

I don't know.

Look, it's case by case, right?

Maybe I'll feel different.

And, and, yeah, next time we're going to work.

When I was talking to Kathy Griffin a couple of weeks ago, she said she has a hard time now doing, she hasn't gone back to stand-up after the attack she withstood from the Trump administration, but she's nervous to go to those because of guns.

You know, she's nervous of being attacked yeah i would too i mean oh my god gun can you believe that by the way going way back to the beginning of this entire episode what about movie theaters is like yeah that's why i don't i'll go selectively and i'll make sure i'll go when it's kind of empty because you can look online when nobody's there and because i don't want to get shot up in a theater that's what people think now can you believe that that that's where your mind goes whenever there's a public kind of anything

so i'm i mean it's probably because of my age too i'm not 20 years old where you feel invincible and whatever.

And you go, yeah, I'll go to that outdoor concert.

I'll go to this thing.

But it's on my mind.

Yeah, absolutely.

Anyway, speaking of potential bans also, something that's a little closer to home to both of us, Senator Lindsey Graham says that abortion and gay marriage rights should be decided by the states.

Well, here's what he said.

Are you saying that the 2015 Supreme Court decision that made same-sex marriage the law of the land nationally should be overturned?

No, I am saying that I don't think it's going to be overturned.

Nor should it be?

Well, you know, that'd be up to the court.

The reasoning I think could be attacked, but the point I'm trying to make is I've been consistent.

I think states should decide the issue of marriage and states should decide the issue of abortion.

So, what do you think about that, Lindsey Graham?

Well, I mean,

how much time do you got?

I mean, I know.

I don't think she's getting married anytime soon.

You're speaking my language, lady.

Yeah, I know.

Speaking of my language,

she came out of the womb kind of screwed up.

Like,

I don't know.

Look, you know, I'm not as worried about gay marriage, the gay marriage issue.

It's going to be really, really, really, really hard to undo that,

especially when, I don't know.

Look, I might be naive, but.

You're being naive.

I am.

Yeah.

You think

they want the gay marriage gone?

They want a lot of the people to.

You know what's amazing about that?

Go up to somebody who's against it, right?

And go, how was your life affected before gay marriage was legal and after it was gay?

Your life has not changed at all.

We don't see each other.

I don't know you.

You live your life.

You go to work.

You have your family.

You drink your beer.

You do whatever you want.

And I'll go do whatever I want, but I get the same benefits as you.

That's why we live in the country in the same country.

So for the people that are so adamant, what the hell?

How is it changing your life?

in any way.

Yeah, I'm a little meaner.

You're very nice about that.

Go ahead.

ahead.

I literally am like, get your fucking hands off my marriage or I'll kill you.

Like, that's really my whole policy.

You know, I really find it, I carry the 14th Amendment with me, equal rights under the law.

I care.

I like, it's weird because some, you know, I make the joke that only

lesbians are having this many children and except for evangelicals and ours get vaccinated.

I do have actually evangelical relatives, but, you know, I'm just going to keep having children is what I'm doing.

I'm building up a group force that is going to, you know, I, of course, form the militia etheridge with them.

Um, and we're going to fight for our rights.

We're not going to this.

Militia etheridge.

That's hysterical.

That's a good one.

Wait.

Oh, my God.

Are you butch enough?

No.

Who me?

Yeah.

No, I'll organize everybody's food when they come back from the battle.

But are you married?

Wait, I don't even know this.

Are you married?

For 16 years, yeah.

16 years.

Married.

Well, no, married, maybe like nine years, eight years?

Nine years.

So what would you do if they started to bring it back to the states?

Then you would, once again, if you were in other states and something happened to you, say you were in Indianapolis.

Yeah, I would get, well, see, that's the thing.

That's the difference between me and you.

I get upset when it's like about to happen or something, but there's nothing happening right now.

So I don't really, right?

Like the rest of America, you don't really focus on it until it affects you.

So,

but, but what would I do?

I would fight it.

I would definitely fight it.

And I would, I almost feel like, I almost feel like there's a lawsuit against the government if something like that happened, because you can't give somebody a right and take it it away.

How is that legal?

No, I know, but I mean, everybody's fighting it, right?

But what's happening is all the state, every state is almost, except for Indiana, is saying that the ban is wrong.

Well, not Texas, not Florida.

You know, we'll see.

It's the legislators in charge.

I think they have marriage in the crosshairs because they didn't win the first time.

They lost badly.

And they want to win it back.

I think these are some of the things.

I think they're having a harder time with marriage over than abortion.

I think that is no question because I think most people, you know, the numbers are higher.

I don't think it's going to happen.

I just don't think it's going to happen.

I just listened to Clarence Thomas and Samuel Alito and I think, whoa, it could happen.

I know.

Right.

And, you know, the thing that everybody brings up, which is such a smart argument, what about interracial marriage, Clarence?

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, Clarence.

I know, but I guess we're going to, I mean, where does it end?

It doesn't.

That Christian America, as Marjorie Taylor Greene says,

which is what she said,

that's what she wants.

She said that.

Yeah.

Christian nationalists.

She's crazy.

You got to hang out with me more.

We got to keep it.

Believe me.

I know when you ask me.

My My mother also asked who she was today.

I was like, she only gets Fox News.

So she only gets.

You know what I thought?

You said, who is she?

I thought you met me.

Your mom was like, well, Sean, she knows who you are.

No, she was very, she, my mother, was very excited about her, you, being on the show.

She's like, I love him.

He's so nice.

Oh, that's so sweet.

Yeah.

No,

well, you likewise.

She likes the gays.

She likes the gays, but she still was not the best parent in

that situation.

But she and I have settled that many years later.

Yeah,

my mom wrote me like a 12-page handwritten, both sides, legal-sized paper.

You know, I'm going to hell, I'll read the Bible.

And then she did a complete 180 and

said, you know, it's her favorite.

She loved everything.

Yeah, well, there you have it.

Anyway, so speaking of which, speaking of men,

speaking of men, let's bring in our friend of Pivot.

Isaac Fitzgerald is the author of Dirt Bag, Massachusetts, a confessional, which follows the author from a Catholic upbringing to bartending and dive bars to missionary work dodging landmines in Southeast Asia.

Welcome, Isaac Fitzgerald.

Kara, thank you so much for having me.

I have to say, your title is my, I wish I had this title for, I'm supposedly working on a book, but I wish mine was called Dirt Bag.

And in fact, I'm thinking of calling my next podcast Dirt Bag.

I think it's the most perfect.

Mine's just called Bag.

So I want to talk a little bit about this, but first you had a hit children's book called How to Be a Pirate.

And

I did buy it actually for my daughter.

And it's wonderful.

But now you're writing your own coming of age story about yourself.

So talk about why you called it Dirtbag,

Massachusetts.

Obviously, you're from Massachusetts, but

what was your goal in writing this?

Well, so I originally had, there was a town, I moved around a lot as a kid, but a town that I spent most of my teenage years in was called Athol, Massachusetts.

I'll give you one guess, what everyone else in the state called us.

Asshole.

Butthole.

That's right.

Asshole, Massachusetts.

Turns out you can't

call a book that.

Or, you know, you'd have to have an asterisk or something.

And so it was actually my good friend Jason Diamond, who's a wonderful author.

And I kid you not, we were driving to Boston for an event of his.

We were going to stay in a motel under like the shadow of Fenway.

And he just very casually said, why don't you call it Dirtbag, Massachusetts?

Because I was saying I couldn't call it asshole, Massachusetts.

And from there, like that clicked.

At that point, the book was even different than what.

the final product was.

But at that point, it clicked.

That became my lodestar.

Dirtbag, Massachusetts was going to be the heart of every essay that I put into this book.

In the essay.

And so there's, you talk a lot about various things, but what struck me is I was looking at it.

And by the way, my wife's from Massachusetts.

She's from Brookline, which is very different than asshole, Massachusetts.

But she still loves her Massachusetts.

But it smells the same.

It smells, no, it smells good.

Brookline smells real nice.

But one of the things I was struck by, the importance of communal space, whether it's a homeless shelter or a biker bar.

Can you talk a little bit about, you know, because there's a lot of community.

You talk a lot about community when you're writing this.

Yeah, so I was raised in an unhoused shelter run by the Catholic worker.

And I really think if you look at my childhood on paper, you look at my whole life on paper, you would think those early years were the hardest, whereas they were actually the best years.

I felt the most love there.

I felt the most community.

It was a wonderful, progressive situation to be in.

And I'm so grateful.

My parents and I, of course, have complex relationships, but I'm so grateful for the things that they gave me.

One of the things was books.

The other things was a strong sense of community.

And I learned that there at the Catholic Worker.

As I grew older, I found myself drawn more and more to places.

Basically, home and the church.

And when I say the church, I mean the institution, not so much the faith.

But those became unsafe spaces for me.

Places like a biker bar, or I write an essay about the armory in San Francisco.

Those became more safe spaces for me.

And the reason for that was because of the community that I found there.

My therapist actually pointed out I was probably drawn to those places because I thought they were going to be dangerous.

But what they actually were were filled with kind of loving, compassionate people that accepted people any which way they were.

And that really, really.

gave me a space to be myself and maybe start to grapple with some of the issues I was trying to put in the rearview mirror.

Explain the armory for people, why the armory in San Francisco works.

So So, the armory is a giant brick building in the heart of San Francisco.

It's in the Mission District, and it has been many, many things, including a few scenes for the Millennium Falcon for Star Wars, which was filmed there.

But at the time, Kink.com, which is a porn company that was run by a man named Peter, was run out of the armory.

And I became a part of the community there and eventually became an actor for Kink.com.

They're wonderful people.

I have to say, I've gone there many times.

It's a wonderful place.

Absolutely right.

Yeah.

It's fascinating what you were talking about growing up, though.

Did you set a shelter, correct?

Well, it's fascinating that you got through all of that.

I mean, it just sounds, I don't know, that's all I have to say.

Well, you know, no, I appreciate that, Sean.

It was, let me tell you, I feel very lucky that that family, that's that's part of the core story of this book, too.

That family kind of explodes, not because of the shelter, but actually in some of the isolation we find ourselves in afterwards.

Our family explodes, but the book is also very much about how that family comes back together in a totally new, but still very beautiful shape.

Well, I can't wait to read it.

It sounds fascinating.

So, Sean, one of the things you talked about was your own family.

You had five kids.

Your mom raised you.

Your dad wasn't around the same kind of thing.

Yeah.

Dad left when I was five, Isaac, and

we kind of parented ourselves.

So you, you, I was saying to Kara when we first started, you kind of have, I still have, I still wake up every day with this kind of survival mode where it's like, what can I got to,

I got to like hunter-gatherer.

It's like, I got to go work hard to get the food, to get them, you know, all of that kind of mentality.

So

I can relate to those kinds of struggles.

And it makes you, you know, what kills you, it makes you stronger.

So that's kind of

right, Sean.

And I want you to know that I completely relate to that.

And I think so many, I'm sure, Terry, you have some relationship to this as well.

That's what makes us such strivers.

We wake up with that, oh, all right, what am I figuring out today?

How am I going to keep the peace today?

What's going to happen next?

And it really is this kind of survival mentality.

I think that's such a perfect way to put it.

Do you have kids, Isaac?

No, no, I've actually chosen to not be a parent.

I'm going to, I wrote an essay for Esquire recently that's called The World Needs Uncles 2.

And it's very much about my decision.

I love that my siblings have had children.

I love watching my parents, who really did struggle being parents, get to become the world's best grandparents.

But I myself, I think I'm going to take an uncle role.

Yeah, that's interesting.

I read this quote once from this woman, which I really love.

She said, I'd rather regret not having kids than have them and regret it later.

And that's kind of like how I feel because it's such a roll of the dice.

Unless you end up with brilliant kids like Kara.

Yeah,

I have them for all of you.

I've been having children for all of you.

One of the things you talk about this

is this unusual social spaces in this book.

One of the ones was you write a lot very lovely about a teenage fight club and

the bonds that you create there.

Obviously, you talk about the Catholic Church.

Talk a little bit about that, because I just think one of the things that we, Sean and I were just talking about is the lack of community of how we're all sort of isolated in these bubbles now.

And where do we go from here?

We're talking about Alex Jones and the people that sort of get fed his line of horse shit, for example.

And it works on them because people don't feel separate.

How do you talk about these social spaces that you, the physical social spaces, not online ones?

The internet has provided me with so much.

I am one of those people.

I have an essay essay in the book that's basically, I was looking at analog porn when I was 12.

And by 13, things have become very online.

I was born in 1983.

So I'm very much of that last generation that had one one foot in kind of the analog world and then one foot in the internet world.

The internet provided so much for me.

It allowed me to meet like-minded people that I never would have met before.

It allowed me to build a writing community that started in San Francisco, but then went out across the country working with writers from all over the place.

And I so loved that.

but the fact of the matter is is it allowed a lot of different people to find a lot of other different like-minded people and like you said it has created these bubbles and more and more i find myself still with deep appreciation for the internet but looking to make connections offline i'm trying to walk more i'm trying to go out and just meet with friends sit with them spend time with them i do my damnedest not to look at my phone as much as i used to and part of that is I think a lot of us are thirsty for that form of connection, especially, of course, after the pandemic, especially, of course, after being so limited in the spaces that we could be in.

So that is community, like we mentioned before, like we touched on, has always been so important to me.

And I think it's going to become in the next five, 10 years, something that people are very, very focused on.

And I'm

physical community.

Yeah, physical, exactly.

Physical spaces.

I'm not going to be able to do that.

So even if it was fighting, it didn't matter.

It was.

Well, so that's what's funny about the fight club.

And I'm so glad you're bringing it back to that.

So i recently somebody you know i was like oh i wasn't a very angry kid and it was my therapist who was like you literally told me about how you and your friends used to get together and fight and that's when i realized what that was about which was you know when you push things down and you try and ignore things they bubble up in these weird ways we started this group and it was about joy it was about fun it was about spending time together but what is it really about we had violence in our homes and this was our attempt to try and control it we couldn't control it in our own homes.

Violence would roll in like a storm, unexpected.

But when we were in this group, we controlled the violence.

We consented to it.

We agreed to it.

And I think that's one of the things that deeply drew us to it.

The other thing is, I think we were all very lonely.

And so it brought us together and it allowed us and made a space for which we could actually, you know, crush up against one another and touch each other and like feel that.

And I do really think at the time, if you had asked me, I would have just been like, we saw a cool movie and we thought it was fun.

But looking back on it now, I see see so many young men who are desperate for connection and desperate to try and control the violence that they felt like they didn't have control of in other parts of their life.

When I was younger, I wish that group of people would have crushed up against me.

Let's talk about this episode in the conventional booth then, because it is vivid.

Go ahead, Isaac.

Yes.

So

this is a very big moment in the book, and it was

a difficult moment to dissect and I think this is part of what I'm trying to do in the book is you want to make sure that you're facing the reality of the situation and the reality of this situation is I don't know for sure what was happening on the other side of that lattice so I'm in the confessional there's a metal lattice between me and the priest all I know is that at the age of 12 I was confessing many different things and none of them held this person's attention.

They truly were just going through the motions.

And then I,

knowing kind of that the thing that you don't want to confess probably means it's the thing that you should, I confessed to basically my first sexual experience, which is I was 12.

There was a 17-year-old girl, and she and I went into the woods and she performed oral sex.

And when I started to confess that,

it's like the whole air in the confessional changed.

And the priest sat up and the priest was paying more attention.

His ears were more alert.

heat, his breathing became heavier, and he started to ask for more details.

And at first, I started to give them because that's an incredibly difficult situation.

This is why the Catholic Church got away with the pedophilia that got away with it.

It's why the Catholic Church got away with the abuse that it did was because we are talking about oftentimes low-income children or low-income families who look to the church for guidance, who believe that these priests have the ear of God and thus can do no wrong.

And I'm sitting there saying more and more.

But even then, at the age of 12, I knew something uncomfortable was happening.

Again, I can't tell for sure what was going on on the other side of that lattice.

I don't know if that was an interest that he was just taking in an audio, if there was more that was happening there.

But I did eventually just get up and leave.

Wow.

And that's a really vivid scene.

It's a very difficult moment for me.

Yeah, exactly.

And something I've wrestled with for a very long time because my mother and father were both involved with the church.

So when Spotlight comes out in the early 2000s, the the work of the boston globe investigative team the things that they showed were part i was very close to all of that and my parent i remember my mother just asking with such a heavy heart did something happen and i'm not going to give away too much to the book here but you can read it but but that that you know it's it's a tough thing that happened to so many different catholic families indeed i were i think we're all catholic are you catholic yeah we're raised catholic i i of course when i went in the confessional because they're not interested in women at all they're like do you have anything to confess and i said no i've not done anything wrong and they said Everyone is a sinner.

And I said, This, you know, were you mean to your brother?

I said, That's not a sin.

I'm not saying anything.

I refuse.

And they were like, Get out of here.

And I was like, Okay, good.

Sounds good.

Have a good day.

You were like, That was self-defense.

I was like, There's nothing wrong with me.

Like, there's nothing wrong with me.

And I remember those confessions where they forced you to do them as children.

And then so you had to make something up.

I was like, I don't know.

I pulled my sister's hair, which I didn't do.

I was like, I don't know.

I don't do anything wrong like you.

I was like, nothing.

It's the whole thing is so crazy.

Well, there is the gay thing.

There is the gay thing.

Oops.

Oops.

Anyway, this is a really wonderful book, and you are a really wonderful writer.

I think that's the best part of it.

I can't wait to read it.

And

it's a really fun and easy read and also full of just really vivid writing.

And again, it really strikes me how you talk because you had been one of the first books editor at BuzzFeed News, which is the social media-driven outlet of all time, really.

And so it's really interesting that you talk a lot about community and creation of physical community on the thing.

It's a wonderful book.

I think a lot of people should pick it up.

Anyway, the book is Dirtbag, Massachusetts.

Thank you, Isaac Fitzgerald.

Kara and Sean, thank you so much.

I so appreciate it.

And thank you for having me on.

Like I said, big fan.

So thanks for having me.

Nice to meet you.

Yeah.

All right, Sean, one more quick break.

We'll be back for predictions.

Oh, great.

Hello, Daisy speaking.

Hello, Daisy.

This is Phoebe Judge from the IRS.

Oh, bless.

that does sound serious.

I wouldn't want to end up in any sort of trouble.

This September on Criminal, we've been thinking a lot about scams.

Over the next couple of weeks, we're releasing episodes about a surprising way to stop scammers.

The people you didn't know were on the other end of the line.

And we have a special bonus episode on Criminal Plus with tips to protect yourself.

Listen to Criminal wherever you get your podcasts and sign up for Criminal Plus at thisiscriminal.com/slash slash plus

okay sean let's hear some predictions i want a really good prediction for you besides britney spears' latest whatever i i i i didn't understand i didn't know we had i had to do homework for this predictions what do you think is going to happen in summer about what anything anything

what is your prediction my prediction I think Liz Cheney is going to lose her thing, which is not much of a prediction, but she is probably going to run for president.

You know what?

I predict that this country is tired of the divisiveness and we're going to come together in a community fashion, as Isaac said, very soon, sooner than later.

Oh, I like that.

I like that.

That is a really nice, that's a prediction.

That's a good prediction.

I do think that.

I think everybody's sick and tired of all this bullshit.

Well, how is it going to manifest itself?

It's going to manifest itself through elections.

You wait and see.

People are going to be like, you know what?

We didn't talk about this new party that's being formed called Forward.

Yes, that's Andrew Yang.

Yes.

Yeah, I would do that.

I'd sign up for that.

Yeah.

All right.

Okay.

Because I think that's where people are.

It's like both sides are so crazy right now that that's right.

Right.

One is more crazy than the other, though, I have to say.

Yes, I agree.

I agree.

But would you do, would you sign up for the Forward initiative?

Not that particular one, but I do think a third party is a really, we're at that moment.

Who would you like to see be the next president?

Oh, God.

Stacey Abrams, maybe.

I think she's really smart.

Yeah.

There you go.

I think Buddha Judge would be great.

You'd like a gay in the White House, wouldn't you?

You'd like a gay.

Wouldn't you?

Yeah.

Yes, I would.

Yes.

He's a very different kind of gay than you and I, I think, though.

Yes, he's well, he's smart.

I'm going to leave it on that.

Anyway.

Anyway, we want to hear from you.

Send us your questions about business tech or whatever's on your mind.

Go to nymag.com slash pivot to submit a question for the show or call 8-5551-PIVOT.

Sean, that is the show.

I really, really recommend everybody.

I know everyone knows you from Will and Grace, but your podcast is wonderful.

It really is.

It's really great.

And you're my favorite part of it.

Don't say that to the other boys.

Thank you.

It's called Smartless, by the way.

Smartless.

It's called Smartless.

It's on the top of all the lists, and it's really, it's quite smart, actually.

And quick little plug, I also do another one called Hypochondria Actor, which I do with a doctor friend of mine because I'm an actor who's a hypochondriac.

It's a great podcast.

What happened to you last week?

What was

pick a body part and I'll tell you a story.

Okay.

That's what it's about.

Okay.

Happy Chondri Actor with Sean Hayes.

Listen, Annie, you're a wonderful podcast.

I'm glad I bugged you that time to do it because you're really such a clever man.

Thank you.

I wouldn't be here without your good advice.

Yes, no, you would.

You would.

Anyway.

Yes, you would.

Yes, you would.

Scott Galloway, no, absolutely not.

And Axios would not have sold for $525 million without my help.

But you, you thrive whatever you do.

Anyway, we'll be back on Friday for more.

I will read us out, Sean.

Today's show was produced by Lara Naaman, Evan Engel, and Taylor Griffin.

Ben Woods engineered this out.

You can keep talking during this.

I will.

Make sure you subscribe to the show.

Subscribe

wherever you listen, podcasts.

Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media.

We'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business.

And Sean Hayes technologies.

Yeah.

Is it boss?

Lesbians, what does your t-shirt say?

Lesbians who tech.

Lesbians who tech.

Okay.

Thank you, Sean.

Bye, everybody.