Primary Results, An Abortion Win in Kansas, and Pelosi’s Taiwan Trip

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hi everyone this is pivot from new york magazine and the vox media podcast network i'm kara swisher and scott free august continues so today my co-host is political strategist author of any given tuesday and democratic insider liz smith Welcome, Liz.

Well, thank you so much for having me.

And for your regular listeners, I want to assure them that even though it's Scott-Free August, it is not dick joke-free August.

Oh, okay.

Because I am a big connoisseur.

Oh, okay.

And a big user of dick jokes.

Okay.

Any sort of dick joke, I got it in the repertoire.

All right.

You've got them.

You've got them ready.

There's so many dicks around this week, so that's just perfect.

We're going to get to know you a little bit and everything that you've done.

Today, the votes are in and on the ballot, the future future of the Republican Party and the right to an abortion.

Also, we'll hear from a listener with a question about the Supreme Court.

We're going to do heavy politics today because Liz has a long history in politics.

She's been a, what would you, how would you describe yourself, Liz?

What is what is your way you would say this is me?

I would just say I'm a political operative that has worked at every level of the game, every level of the business, in red, states, and blue, first state, senate candidates up to presidential candidates.

Right.

And I like that you use the term operative because a lot of people try to get away from that idea.

Like they say strategist or I just called you a strategist, but I like the idea of you're a political operative.

So you're sort of the behind the scenes people that run campaigns and things like that.

Yeah.

And, you know, I think one thing I try in my, try to do in my book as well is I don't try to sugarcoat things or glamorize things or sanitize things.

I'm a straight up political operative.

Right, right.

And you, your most famous client, of course, to date has been Pete Buttigieg, who is now the Secretary of Transportation.

But Mayor Pete ran for president and did pretty well.

You really put him on the map in lots of ways.

And he put himself on the map, obviously.

And I guess I put him on the code lineup for September.

You did.

Yeah, he's coming in.

He's coming into code.

Thank you for doing an ad for code.

Yeah, we're very excited.

It's a really great list.

And we're excited talking about infrastructure and transportation.

And he's such a geek, he's going to wonk out with us, I think, which will be great.

You're the only person I've ever heard.

say that you're excited to talk about infrastructure.

Yeah, I am.

I'm really excited.

I'm very excited because that's that's his thing, right?

He's got all this money to spend over the next couple of years.

And during the campaign, I can't tell you, I would always

roll my eyes when he would talk about smart sewers and things like that.

Like he's so passionate about it.

I'd be like, Pete, no one cares about smart sewers.

And now,

they do.

They do.

Everybody does.

Everybody does.

And he got the perfect job and he's a perfect salesman for it because you never like think that Secretary of Transportation is a particularly like glamorous job, but to have someone who thinks transportation is the sexiest thing in the world is great.

And he's going to be, he's going to sell the heck out of it.

So, let me ask you a question about that campaign.

What do you think is the most interesting thing in your book or surprise that people will be surprised about?

Okay, so the title is Any Given Tuesday, which is a spin-off of

the saying any given Sunday, which is about professional football.

It is.

And any given, yeah.

And I write a lot in my book about my love for professional football and how it was fostered by my dad, who I also write a lot about in my book.

You know, the idea behind any given Sunday is that the worst team in the league can walk out on the field and beat the best team.

The best team can lose to the worst team.

And it's not those wins or losses that define you.

What defines you is, do you pick yourself up up off the turf and go to the next Sunday?

And it involves an element of belief to go Sunday after Sunday after Sunday,

get your body beaten in and not let the winds go too much to your head, not let the losses beat you down too much.

And politics is similar because

as I go through in my book, Any Given Tuesday, there are a lot of losses and there are a lot of wins.

And if you let the wins go to your head, that's not a good thing.

If you let the losses beat you down, that's not a good thing.

But ultimately, it involves an element of belief to be able to go election to election and stamina and stamina.

But really, it is stamina is a physical thing.

Belief is an important thing.

And for me, you know,

I'm sort of comparing it to the game of football, but politics isn't a a game to me.

And

it's something that's so important, but it does involve an element of belief to be able to keep going year after year after year as Hayek.

Were you surprised about how popular Mayor Pete got from almost nowhere?

Barack Obama was very similar.

He wasn't that well known.

And then he was.

Was that a big surprise to you how quickly people

became attracted to him as a candidate?

And I remember early on, you were a bit of a Pete skeptic.

You were a bit of a Pete skeptic.

I was.

Indeed, You were.

At least men.

Anyway, sorry.

I like the ladies, if you don't mind.

Well, I know.

I'm aware of that, as all your listeners are.

Not for dating.

I want a woman president.

I really, really want a woman president.

I really do.

I would like that to happen at some point.

I know.

No, and so do I.

And we can talk more about that one later.

But the was Mayor Pete, was I surprised?

No,

no, and yes, so no, because

I had worked for so many people before him.

And the first time I sat down with him, you know, like

five feet away, and I did media prep with him.

He was a mayor of a town of a hundred thousand people.

And he's about to sit down with Wall Street Journal, New York Times, BuzzFeed, all this.

And I'm expecting him to be this like wide-eyed, naive guy.

Like, what did I get into?

And he wasn't.

He was so poised, so comfortable in his own skin.

He knew who he was.

He knew what his values were.

And he articulated them in a way that I just didn't hear other Democrats articulating.

And there's also another thing about him, which is, you remember that time, like, so I met him in December 2016.

That was when Democrats were all like reeling from the Trump victory and thinking, okay, well, to beat Trump, we have to beat him.

We have to be the loudest voices in the room.

We have to yell, we have to scream, we have to demonize everyone.

And Pete was total counter-programming to that.

And

his and his view, so his tone, he was very quiet in how he spoke,

but he wasn't into demonizing other people.

He was about,

yeah, yeah, and his whole campaign was about like belonging, bringing people into the process, and also saying to Republicans

that

your vote in the last election doesn't define you.

I want you in my tent.

And again, at a time when a lot of people were saying every Trump voter is a racist, misogynist, sexist, whatever is you want to apply to them.

So to me, it stood out not because of the decibel, but of

how different he sounded.

So it didn't surprise me because I knew it would sort of cut through.

But what

did

what I didn't expect

was for that one CNN town hall in March of 2019 to take him from 1% in Iowa, and the 1% was probably just like a mistake, to two weeks later being third in Iowa, only after Joe Biden and Bernie Sanders.

And

our campaign manager, Mike Schmuel, described it as warping political time.

It's like he skipped eight steps of running for president.

And

when I had gone to work for Pete, people thought I was insane.

One of my friends turned to me and was like, Did you lose a bet or something?

She was like Kellyanne Conway going with Trump.

Remember, that was, everyone thought that was kind of ridiculous too.

At the time, at the same time, but Trump was at 100% name ID.

And

I would go to family events like Thanksgiving.

And I remember my cousin was like, so who are you going to work for after Pete drops out of the race?

And I was like, he's not going to drop out of the race.

But so it was unpredictable.

Yeah.

You know,

it's a really interesting thing to write about, and there's a lot of political books out.

But right now, I'm going to tap you for your political expertise.

There's a whole bunch of stuff going on this week.

You're the perfect guest for this week.

First of all, China is cracking down on Taiwan after Nancy Pelosi's trip to the island.

Very political trip.

Some people think she was tough, and that was the right thing to be.

This week, she met with Taiwan's tech leaders, including the head of chip-making giant TSMC.

They discussed the recently passed Chips Act and the company's investment in the United States, including Arizona.

China was none too pleased with the visit and imposed fresh sanctions on Taiwanese exports.

How important was it?

And I think a lot of people felt it was important for her to stand up to the bullying of China, really, pretty much.

Yeah.

And from a political political perspective, it's fascinating.

I got to tell you, I'm a pretty hardened, jaded person, but I got goosebumps when I saw the videos of

her jet landing in Taiwan and the thousands of people

standing out on the streets cheering her.

Because

And it reminded me, you know, when John McCain went to Ukraine and sort of rallied the same sort of sentiment.

And I understand that there are people who think that what she did was rash and that what she did is,

you know, provocative with the Chinese government and that the Chinese, like, right.

And when Republicans go there, they don't see it as a statement of the White House's policy under Joe Biden.

When she goes there, the Chinese government sees it as, okay, well, Joe Biden obviously must have signed off on this.

And this is them trying to provoke us.

But like,

so I, and I get it.

I get the pragmatist view on this.

I am oftentimes on campaigns at odds with foreign policy advisors because foreign policy advisors and lawyers, because I'm not as conservative as they are in terms of what we do, what we say.

But like, It is really important for the U.S.

to be that beacon of hope and freedom across the world.

Especially for Taiwan, especially with semiconductors, which have been one of the issues is the lack of semiconductors and the need for them and the construction of them in this country, right?

This has become a big political football for people.

And that is a very important economic issue for our country, their country.

But there's a bigger thing to me here, which is that under Donald Trump, I do feel like the U.S.

sort of faded on the global stage.

And we stop.

And I hate, I hate, hate, hate to quote Ronald Reagan positively, but he did talk about the U.S.

being that shining city on a hill.

And it is a speech that I love, even though I don't love basically anything else about Ronald Reagan.

And what her visit to Taiwan evoked to me was that image of the United States of America as a shining city on the hill and her going to this tiny, tiny country of 23 million people that is

100 miles off the coast of a country of over 1 billion people that is one of the greatest military forces.

I don't know.

I felt good about it.

And I think it was the right thing to do.

And I understand the criticisms of it, but like it gives me a lot of hope that people across the world, maybe not people in China, because I know that the media is heavily censored there, but that people across the world will see that image and see that image once again of America being a beacon for hope and democracy and freedom and standing up against.

Yeah.

Yeah, it's very important that we have really good relationships around chips and the, because America's national security is dependent on chips and other things.

And that's why the CHIPS Act passed.

And I think it's really important that we show solidarity with Taiwan in lots of ways to create these companies that are building even in the the United States, you know, these kind of facilities that they want to.

Moving on, Twitter is going all in on Elon Musk.

This week it subpoenaed some of his closest associates, including Mark Andreessen and Jason Calicanis, who I know, both of whom I know very well, who are involved in financing parts of the deal.

Among other things, the subpoena requests communications about spams and bots.

I'd love to get yours take.

How do political people feel about where this Elon Musk purchase of Twitter is?

It's been so important to politics.

Yeah, well, it looks like he's not buying it now,

but it was very much obviously the hot topic among politicos

and it brought out a lot of strong emotions in people and i look i i i have an unpopular take on this like i don't really care if elon musk buys twitter or not i i didn't think it would fundamentally change things i also don't get

the knee-jerk reflexive um like hate for him like geniuses and these guys who do these big things, whether it's him or Steve Jobs or whoever it is, they all, they all tend to be a little weird and a little abrasive and not the most likable people, not the most sociable of people.

But I just, I don't get the hate for him.

I didn't think it was fundamentally going to change the platform.

He says things that really anger, you know, the whole right-wing thing that he suddenly was and the kind of he baits people, this and that.

I don't honestly care.

It's like, it's kind of juvenile he's a troll right he's a troll yeah yeah i agree it's juvenile but do i think he is like a great threat to america if he buys twitter do i think he's a great threat to anything if he buys twitter no twitter's still going to be the same 90 of the people who said that they were going to leave twitter if he bought it would have still stayed on because twitter's like a drug to people yeah yeah that's right that's right and i think this full do you think this right-wing shift is real i just think he's just playing to the cheap seats that's my feeling feeling.

Yeah, I, yeah, I agree with that.

But you, you and I both know this dynamic, right?

Where

with people, if you demonize people over and over and over again, you sort of push them into a corner and make them feel unwelcome.

And we've seen that with a lot of public figures.

And that might be happening now, but give it a week.

The guy seems like he's a little tempestuous, a little petulant.

And so I could see him in a week, you know, turning back.

But one, one thing I did not like about Democrats' stance, not all Democrats, but some of the left's stance on this is that, you know,

he very much talked about free speech.

And free speech

somehow on the left has sort of become like a dirty word, a dirty term.

And you even see like organizations like the ACLU standing down from free speech, actually try to suppress free speech.

And

I don't think that's a position we should try to take, you know?

And well, you have to balance it against that.

You have to, you do have to, I think, I think when you want to be intelligent about it, you have to balance against the sort of sloppiness and damage that some of the, like right now, the Alex Jones trial is happening.

And if you read it, like the kind of lies he told about these dead kids had a direct effect on these families, a dangerous effect.

And so there is, you know, there is free speech.

And then there's, are you controlling, are you just letting anything go on anything?

And so I think that's the difficult part is because government certainly can't get involved, right?

Government can't impose themselves in any way.

And so I think it's a push-pull thing of

responsibility in some cases around something like a figure like Alex Jones.

And it's not an easy thing, and people try to make it reductive.

That's my issue with it, is that it's not reductive and it can't be reduced and it's complex and there's no good answers.

Very much like, by the way, you know, the Biden administration not mentioning Elon Musk when it's talking about electric cars.

I find that to be perplexing.

This is the guy who pushed it forward.

I don't even get it.

I'm going to ask Secretary Budijej about this.

Like, why do you ignore him?

Like, he is the major figure.

It's like ignoring Steve Jobs if you're talking about, you know, graphical user interface and the computer, you know, the computer revolution.

It's almost impossible to leave him out of it.

Yeah.

And I know Pete has faced some criticism over it.

And

I can't remember his answer exactly.

Like, again, I am not a infrastructure, you know, transportation wonk, but there was, um, there is some reason that Pete cited that they're slightly different from some of the other EVs, but grill him, grill him to hell.

Like, I'm going to, I'm going to grill him to hell.

I'm going to tell you, you said so.

I'm going to say, you give me permission.

All right, last thing: the Taliban faces a backlash from Afghanis after a U.S.

drone strike killed an al-Qaeda leader in Kabul this week.

The attack could strengthen the position of hardliners who want the Taliban to retaliate for the strike.

Biden looks great in terms of killing this guy without killing his family.

While having COVID, he used the word war on terror in his speech announcing the drone strike.

What is the political implications of this

drone strike of this very dangerous leader?

I have a lot of feelings about this.

You know, my dad had worked in the World Trade Center from the day it was built to the day it went down.

And I remember the night,

and

he led his firm in the aftermath of it.

And, you know, he's, he wasn't there that day.

He was actually on a flight, but he suffered awful PTSD

from it because he felt personally responsible that he had kept his firm in the building after the 1993 bombing.

So there's a very personal element to me, which was I, you know, it.

you know, I got emotional when they got bin Laden and when they got Sawahiri the same way,

I was, I felt very emotional.

But there had been this, there are two things I think that matter

politically here.

There had been this narrative out there about Joe Biden that he was weak, that he was ineffective, that he couldn't get things done.

And like, I mean, you could almost tell watching his speech that night that there was a new sort of swagger to him that we hadn't seen in a while.

Yeah, the aviator, the aviator swagger.

The Kara Swisher swaggers.

I like to call it.

I didn't drone kill anybody this week.

Maybe next week.

I don't know.

There's that.

And the fact that we had been haunting this guy for 20 years, and finally it's Joe Biden that gets him.

And, you know, as tough as Trump likes to portray himself, like he didn't get him.

And when you listen to the

recountings of his briefings, he would always sort of gloss over Zawahiri, you know, and go to other names that he he recognized more.

I don't know why that was, but so there's one thing because I think it does counteract the image of Biden is weak.

But two,

if you talk to any Democratic campaign across the country, they would tell you that when the numbers changed for Democrats, there was one moment when everything changed, and it was during the chaos of the Afghanistan withdrawal.

And

when I say every campaign, I'm telling you that I talked to to county executive campaigns on Long Island that said that week was when their numbers started to go down because Joe Biden was elected to bring back normalcy to end the chaos of the Trump era.

And then on TV, you're just seeing chaotic scene after chaotic scene after chaotic scene from the withdrawal.

And there was this view that if we withdraw from Afghanistan, that we are essentially ceding it to the terrorists, it's going to be a huge national security threat, blah, blah, blah.

Yet, there we are.

We withdrew all our troops as the American people wanted, as Joe Biden promised, and

still took out their number two.

So that, I think, helps blunt some of the criticisms of Joe Biden that were out there on the Afghanistan withdrawal and its long-term implications for our foreign policy and our counterterrorism efforts.

I think right now Biden's in a stronger place with this, this and some of the bills they've passed.

And we're going to get to that because we just had an election that was super interesting and very mixed bag.

So let's get to our first big story.

It's Trump's party, and he'll lie if he wants to.

Trump-backed candidates won primary races around the country this week, defeating more traditional Republicans.

Among the winners, there was a widespread support for Trump's claims about the 2020 election.

And these are just the Republican candidates.

Doesn't mean they're going to win the main election, particularly worrisome considering one is running for Secretary of State in Arizona.

I'm curious what you think about these results.

We're going to go through a bunch of them because there's a lot of mixed bag.

Because Trump's pick for senator in Missouri won easily, but that's because the former casino owner spread out his bets by voting for all the Eric's.

He didn't pick, the original Eric he picked did not win.

And so I just would love to get your take.

Another one, a big primary winner, Republican John Gibbs, who seems unhinged slightly.

Unseated Representative Peter Meyer in Michigan.

Meyer was a rare Republican who voted to impeach Trump, but Gibbs had the support of Democrats who spent more than $400,000 to boost his profile among conservative voters.

Democrats are betting the far-right candidate will be easier to beat in the general election.

They're also spending money to boost extremist candidates in Pennsylvania, Illinois, and Maryland.

So I'd love to get your take on this particular what happened here.

Can we conclude the January 6th committee isn't having the impact it wants, or is this just Arizona or around the country?

So I don't know what impact they expected, but I actually do think it's having an impact.

And

an early indicator of that is the way that Fox News is treating Trump.

Because my view on the ultimate, the way that January 6th is going to impact things is in the Republican elite circles.

It's not going to move the true believers.

It may move, you know, some of the people in the middle, some of the reasonable, you know, the people who held their nose voted for Donald Trump because they like tax cuts, right?

And I have friends like that, and I don't necessarily understand where they're coming from, but they're still my friends.

I love them, and hopefully, they'll make better choices in the future.

But Fox News has completely tuned out Donald Trump.

And to me, that is reflective of an elite sort of view that it was okay to sort of play along with him for a while, but the portrait of him that has been portrayed in January 6 hearings is beyond unhinged beyond deranged it is criminal and it is dangerous you know the the actions that he took in the lead up to january 6th and the lack of action that he took on that day when you know members of congress lives his vice president's life was at stake that they can't nominate this guy again they just can't um i mean they they absolutely can but they shouldn't.

Well, they said, I said that last time.

They said we'll never do it, right?

This is this is, but what I'm wondering is what you think these results show, because these are a lot of people who are, who are at least mouthing publicly the Trump party line, which is the election was stolen, fake, fake, fake, fake, whatever, whatever conspiracy theory.

So what do these wins say to you?

Is it just that they're just nominating the crazies and they're going to lose in the general election?

Or, or what?

It says to me that that the lunatics have you know taken over the asylum and that as much as republicans behind the scenes like to say that trump isn't the republican party sorry like you know you break it you own it and they own trumpism trumpism

is the republican party now and in state after state after state whether it's you know um michigan pennsylvania maryland ohio that it's candidates who are parroting his lines and parroting his lies that are winning.

But Kara, but it's not only that.

You know, I know that Democrats have gotten some criticism in some of these gubernatorial races for

running ads.

Like, let's use the example of Pennsylvania, running ads, highlighting how Doug Mastriano was the most

severely conservative of the candidates and opposed abortion all exceptions, the biggest proponent of the big lie, you know, he's someone who was at January 6th, bust supporters there, tried to invalidate the results in 2020.

But, like,

it's not like Tom Ridge was in that primary.

It's not like there are any moderates.

It's not even like, I hate to keep bringing up Ronald Reagan, but like, it's not even like there was Ronald Reagan.

The number two guy in that race was Lou Barleta, who was a fake elector for Trump.

So in these gubernatorial races, there is no one who is willing to stand up and say

same thing in Missouri.

The Missouri, the guy, the second Eric who won, who he wasn't backing first, is also a Trumper, even though he's not a Trumper with an abuse allegations.

And so, but what does that mean?

Does it mean having these sort of very conservative, conspiracy-minded candidates on the right in those positions, in those primary positions, when they win, what does that do to them?

So Missouri is a lost cause.

I don't know if you follow the Democratic primary at all, but we had this this amazing candidate in Lucas Koontz,

vet,

charismatic, could reach out to Democrats, Republicans, everything.

And instead, we voted in Anheuser-Busch Aris, who has the communication skills of Herschel Walker after 10 shots of Jack Daniels.

Like,

Okay, what do you really think?

Look, I worked in Missouri.

I worked in Missouri and it pains me to to say this about a Democrat, but you guys do not give any money.

We're not winning that race.

In Arizona, it's a different question.

If Kari Lake wins,

that's tough because

I feel a lot better about the Democratic candidates in Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, Michigan, than I do in Arizona.

But Arizona is a quirky state.

Like we saw it go for Biden, you know, in 2020.

And Mark Kelly, who is the Senate candidate, is,

I think, a really, really, really

unique candidate.

His background as an astronaut, obviously, has been an amazingly supportive husband, you know, to Gabby Giffords, who went through, you know, so much tragedy with that, you know, getting shot at a campaign event.

And he has been a leader on those issues, but also been someone who's willing to buck the Democratic Party, been willing to buck Biden and has a brand of his own.

So I could actually see the Senate race leading the ticket.

So, but is that a good thing to be running against these

very, you know, Trumpy kind of people?

Because

it's repugnant to the independents.

That's showing in poll after poll after poll.

They're being very affected by the January 6th hearings.

And I'm not talking about the base, but I'm talking about in putting these candidates up, is that a bad thing for the Republican Party and a good thing for Democrats?

Or could these candidates get in anyway and then have real effects i mean there's always that risk right after 2016 i'm i'm so um

nervous about making like definite predictions about things after 2016 but um

there is a risk to it but

there's also a really important element to it because trump isn't on the ballot now but it's trumpism and it's almost trumpism on steroids like like

Doug Mastriano to me

is this is in Pennsylvania yeah and in Pennsylvania governor of Pennsylvania

right and who is Josh Shapiro is an amazing candidate and is someone who is a great communicator and someone who's been able to win in tough years but um

is that now we actually get to have an election where Trumpism is on the ballot pure uncut trumpism without donald trump without whatever his charismatic appeal is to his base.

And so does it win or does it get crushed?

My hope is that it gets crushed.

My feeling is that in a lot of these states, it will get crushed.

And if it does, I mean,

it's a good thing for the Republican Party, which I, frankly, I don't really care about the Republican Party, but it's a good thing for everyone to not have.

Yeah.

Because it'll clear to have Donald Trump overhanging the situation.

Yeah, it's interesting because I have relatives in Pennsylvania and none of them want to, and they're Republican and they do not want to vote for Mustrania.

They don't.

They might even vote for Fetterman in the Senate race.

They don't want Oz,

Dr.

Oz.

They don't want,

they're like, we may vote for Josh Shapiro.

I can't believe it.

I can't believe they're saying that because they're such Republicans and they think they'll have a very hard time doing it, but we'll see.

Can I ask you a question?

Because I know you speak a lot on this podcast about your family and them having relatively pretty conservative views.

And

some.

Yes.

So I'm that person, if I'm at a bar, I will focus, scroop the shit out of, I'm allowed to cuss on here.

Yes, go right ahead.

Okay.

You haven't made a dick joke yet, but go ahead.

You know, now there's so much pressure.

I feel like, you know, but I will make a dick joke.

Okay, at the end.

And so tell me, why is it that the more conservative members of your family are turned off by Mastriano?

Why are they turned off by Oz?

He's from New Jersey.

That bothers them.

Is that the number one thing?

They say a lot.

And then they kind of like Federman.

He's an appealing, likable character.

I don't know if they'll vote for him.

In the case of Mastriono, they think he's crazy.

They think this guy's nuts.

At the same time, I was at a wedding and my cousin, who was gay, is like, oh, Trump's not that anti-gay.

And I was like, what are you talking about?

The money and the tax breaks, they liked better than anything else.

And so if Democrats could sort of look like they're good to business, maybe that might work.

I don't know.

It'll be interesting to see when it comes down to the actual election and not the primary, which is trending rightward.

If that's going to be appealing to the middle, I think it's a problem for these people to go to the middle.

Like Carrie Lake can't go to the middle.

She can't.

She can't go to the middle.

The other woman can't.

She can't.

Neither can Doug, and neither can a lot of these people can't go to the middle.

Anyway, we'll go on a quick break.

When we come back, we'll talk about a big win for abortion rights in Kansas and take a listener mail question that came in via Twitter for Liz.

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All right, Liz, we're back with our second big story.

Abortion rights activists are celebrating after a historic win in Kansas of all places.

That's how everyone said that in that way.

Kansas of all places.

Voters in the Sunflower State chose to protect the rights to abortion by a margin of almost 20 points.

The win is especially notable given there were no competitive Democratic races on the ballot.

Abortion rights is a winning issue.

Wasn't that always obvious?

Pelosi and Chuck Schumer didn't even use the word abortion a couple months ago after the draft decision leaked.

What do we think about this situation here?

Is it a surprise to you?

It is a surprise to me

because

for so many

years, for my entire lifetime,

all of the energy on the choice or abortion issue, whatever you want to call it, I don't care if people use the term abortion or not.

I just don't.

I don't believe we need to language police people on that stuff.

But

for all of my lifetime, all of the energy has always been on the pro-life, anti-choice side.

They got what they wanted.

And for the first time, now they are are feeling the wrath that we felt for so many years.

And it is the wrath, not just of Democrats, but of the people that you and I just talked about, like, you know, our friends, our family members, whatever, who

voted for Trump or voted for Republicans, held their nose because tax cuts and whatever, like, no one's going to overturn the right to choose.

Of course not.

But that's just not the case anymore.

And

what I think was so smart about what they did in Kansas

and their communications was that they made this an issue of freedom.

They made this an issue of

keeping the government out of people's lives.

And even in a very red conservative state, it was a powerful message because we saw not only Democrats, Independents, but Republicans come out to vote and say, no,

politicians should not be in the business of making healthcare decisions for women.

Right.

So there are a lot of arguments you can make when it comes to abortion, right?

But the most powerful one, and I've watched focus groups on this, I've seen polling on it, is not the most incendiary one.

It's that politicians should not be in the business of making healthcare decisions for women.

They should not be in that, you know, a doctor's room.

Right.

Because it gets to the heart of why a lot of Republicans are Republicans.

They want smaller government.

But, like, could you imagine any bigger government than politicians than, like, I don't know?

Yeah, I think it's interesting because it does work.

One of the things, and the energy that exists still on the right is about stuff that's really creepy, which is a girl gets raped, a 14-year-old girl gets raped, and she has to keep the baby.

You hear that's now they're pushed to really extremes, which everyone's like, wait a second, you're taking away the right to an abortion and you're also doing crazy religious things that are not in my wheelhouse in any way.

I think it's really quite, I think the energy they have is, is with extremists and that that's not a good look for them at all, at all.

But it was interesting that the language that worked there wasn't

by talking about, yeah, and it wasn't by talking about the 14-year-old or any of that.

And I pulled up some numbers

from Kansas.

And it's, so in in 2018, which was sort of seen as a high watermark for Democratic turnout, right?

That's when everyone came out, everyone and their mother came out to vote for Democrats in response to 2016.

In 2018, 473,000 votes were cast in the in the primary.

On Tuesday in Kansas, 940,000 votes were cast.

And

it is just shy of the 1 million people who turned out to vote like in the 2018 general election.

And if you look at county after county, the Democratic counties, especially the Democratic counties and Republican counties, the turnout was massive.

But what we saw was it wasn't just Democrats who were voting to protect, you know, this

constitutional right.

in Kansas.

It was Republicans as well.

And that should send fear down the spines of every

Republican elected official in the country.

And keep in mind, Kara, this, you said something before that made me think of this, which is in 2012, I worked for Barack Obama.

I was his director of rapid response.

And in the last month of the campaign, we had

Todd Aiken, a candidate for senator in Missouri against Claire McCaskill, come out and say that,

you know, women who were raped couldn't get pregnant because the body just shuts down.

And so it's not an issue.

I guess he missed like biology class.

Then you had Richard Murdoch in Indiana say that a pregnancy from rape was a gift from God.

And they were so outside of the mainstream that, you know, one of my jobs was to hang their comments around the neck of every Republican in the country, including Mitt Romney's.

Now,

those positions are not outside the mainstream.

They are the mainstream of the Republican Party.

All these candidates, you know, J.D.

Vance or Doug Mastriano or Blake Masters, they oppose abortion in every single instance, including when the mother's life is at stake.

And I'm sorry, that is not going to play well in Peoria.

Good point.

All right.

So I think this is, it is a critical moment.

And I think it's, you're right.

It's as long as you say it's about freedom and

they're extreme, that's where you tend to win.

And you're right.

Every Republican should be very scared of this outcome, regardless of what was going on with these election deniers.

This was the big race, really.

Okay, Liz, let's pivot to a listener question.

You've got, you've got.

I can't believe I'm going to be a mailman.

You've got mail.

This question comes from Kara, Kara with a C on Twitter, specifically for you, Liz.

I'll read it.

What would Bedo need to do to stand a chance in 2024?

Also, is representative democracy a strategy by which the majority public could impact SCODIS?

I get the judiciary is meant to bypass that sort of tinkering, but stacking the court seems childish and unsustainable, which, of course, was a Pete Budig idea,

making the court larger.

So talk about the chances of the various Democratic candidates.

And I know that Biden's still running, so it's kind of premature at this moment to say anything.

But what is your take on this?

Yeah, well, first of all, my take is Joe Biden is absolutely going to run for reelection.

And

I know that people love to like gossip about this because it's sexier than covering his administration, which thankfully is relatively drama-free.

To the point of Betto

is

And I've seen what he's doing and it's smart.

It's what he did in his 2018 Senate race, which is he didn't just go to

the Democratic strongholds, the big cities there that turn out.

He went to every single county in Texas, which is no small feat, by the way.

He is going all across the state, not just the Democratic strongholds, but to the reddest counties.

And it's a really important strategy.

And that's how Democrats, that's how Barack Obama was able to win states like Iowa, states like Ohio, which have trended more red since then, which is that, yes, you go to in Ohio, Cincinnati, Columbus, Cleveland, but you go to the reddest county, you know, and people might say, why are you wasting time in a county that is 90-10 for Republicans?

Well, you know what?

If you can take that 90-10 county down to 70-30 and replicate that with all the other red counties, that's going to give you enough of a margin to build on whatever Democrats you win.

That's what Tim Ryan is doing in Ohio now.

And that's what Betto is trying to do in Texas.

And so he needs to stiff arm the National Party, stiff arm, you know, any National Democrats who are trying to endorse him, come in, campaign for him, and run a really

local, exactly, but one that is, again, you know, focused on the values of the people he's trying to represent and that shows respect for everyone, that he's willing to go everywhere and talk to people, even people who disagree with him, because Greg Abbott is is not that way.

Yeah, but he's ahead, right?

Correct.

Yeah.

Well, I mean, it's Kara.

It's Texas.

Texas.

And the Democrats made a lot of flawed assumptions about Texas that as it got more and more Latino, that it was going to go more Democratic.

But it turns out that.

The Latino vote is not as monolithic as people think it is.

So it doesn't work that way.

Yeah.

Never was.

All right.

If you have a question of your own you'd like answered, send it our way.

Go to nymag.com slash pivot to submit a question for the show or call 8-5551-PIVOT.

All right, Liz, one more quick break.

We'll be back for wins and fails.

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Okay, Liz, let's hear some wins and fails.

My win is Joe Biden and,

you know, finally getting Zawahiri.

That was incredible win for America, a win for people, families like mine.

My fail of the week is the Republicans nominating absolute lunatics to be their candidates for governor and senate.

And you feel that

it's a fail because that they're going to lose because of it or because it's a sad

reflection of democracy at this moment.

So I think it's a fail for them in two ways.

I think it does hurt their chances in the general election, but it does dilute

the argument of, and we know these people who talk on background or off the record, the Republicans who are very concerned about Trumpism and say that Trump is in the party.

It does dilute this idea that there's.

that the Republican Party isn't Donald Trump.

So let me ask you then a question that begs a question before we go.

You said Biden is going to run again.

I agree with you.

I find this it is interesting gossip in Washington, but he's the president and he won.

I feel like he should do what he wants, right?

He should stop being like sort of the sacrificial lamb of whatever, as long as he's cogent, obviously.

But one of the things that do you think Trump on the same way will be running and will get the ticket?

What do you, what is, if you had to predict, I know you don't like to do predictions since 2016, but if you had to say.

Trump is going to run again,

barring some divine intervention.

Or criminal.

Criminal.

That's sort of what I mean.

You know, like we had that whole thing with Mueller and all of that.

And I just don't like this.

Oh, I agree.

I agree.

But I just, man, I don't want to jinx it.

I don't want to jinx it.

Let's not even talk about it.

Let's not even talk about it because, like, well, now Liz Cheney's unplugged.

But I do think Trump will run again.

And I think that, again, all those really smart background strategists who, who shit on Trump.

I don't know that any of these guys will have the stones to take on Trump.

Like, DeSantis.

Is there anybody?

You could see someone like a Liz Cheney or Larry Hogan, but like that doesn't, that's not where the Democratic base is.

Ron DeSantis, I do not think has the balls to do it.

I don't think any of these guys have the balls to do it.

Kevin Stid in Oklahoma,

whoever it is.

You don't even think DeSantis does.

I agree with you.

He's also unlikable.

I mean, he's very unlikable, but he knows how to tickle those erogenous zones of Republicans, you know, because there you go.

Thank you for that visual.

I talked about balls before, so I'm really just packing it in here at the end.

But okay, but like, because one thing I talk about in my book is there is a through line between like Chris Christie and Donald Trump, which is neither of them were.

textbook Republicans, right?

Textbook conservatives, but they realized that they could win and succeed in Republican politics

if they hated

the people that the Republican base hated even more than they did.

So what Christie did was he targeted public employees and teachers.

What Trump did was he targeted immigrants.

And what DeSantis is doing is he's targeted.

targeting education bureaucrats and the health experts who have had a sort of mixed record on the pandemic stuff.

And so he's got the formula down.

But yeah, he doesn't have the personal charisma of a Christie or a Trump.

But I also don't think that he has the balls to run against Donald Trump.

All right.

Well, what about Mike Pence?

You left him out of it.

He seems really,

really?

I mean, like, I know, but a little, but all his, he's leading all his people to testify against Trump.

I don't know, man.

Yeah, I do.

I don't think these people do anything without a call.

I don't.

But speaking of someone who does have balls and a giant set of them, I have to give a win this week to Liz Janey's tweet to Mark Levin, or Mark Levin, who's such a ridiculous chod

of a person.

He wrote, Stop hiding, Liz, come on my radio show.

We can debate this and numerous other issues.

She hit Mark was saying Trump fake electors plot.

Anyway, and Nir said there's, you've been invited before, and I'm inviting you again.

That's an attempt to try to get her and come up.

And she wrote as a reply, When you return to being a principled conservative, I'll return to your show.

In the meantime, read what Judge Ludig has written about 16 and writ and read Lost, Not Stolen by a group of conservatives and watch all the conservative Republicans in our hearings.

Maybe that will help.

I love her.

She's become a star in a lot of ways.

And you called Mark Levin a choad, so you gotta dick joke, too.

Hey, yeah, well, it's my favorite word for people like him.

So, what do you let?

That's my last question.

What is her political prospects?

If she called you and said, Liz, you made Pete famous.

What can you do for me?

And you decided to work for a Republican.

What would you, what would you say?

I've, I, you know, and I have a hard red line.

I, I do not.

All right, say you had to.

Okay.

Like, gun to my head.

I, I have to.

And, and she does have them, apparently.

She and her, her father have guns, but go ahead.

Um, her father knows a lot about shooting people in the face, but the yeah, apparently, allegedly.

Allegedly, I guess what I would say is

there is no future for her in the Republican Party.

Oh, wow.

Um, and that there is probably not much of a future for her in elected office.

So

I don't see a Cheney switching to the Democratic Party.

The Democrats are,

Wyoming is the most Republican state in the country.

So short of switching to the Democratic Party, like her elected

and trying to get, you know, disaffected Republicans, whatever, her political future is over in that sense.

But there is still a way to lead from the outside, to go on TV, to be a thought leader.

Boards, book books, all that sort of stuff.

But like, it's really tough.

It's really tough because I know that people dislike Liz Cheney.

I disliked Liz Cheney before all of this.

And I disagree with 99% of the things that she's said and done, you know, and the stuff with her sister, all of that.

But she showed courage.

She showed a lot of fucking balls in this process.

And she didn't need to.

And she did something that.

most politicians will never do, which is to say, my principles are more important than my my political career.

And, like, most people in politics would, you know,

drown their dog or child to keep their job.

And she didn't do that.

And

she deserves respect for it.

And even though I disagree with her on her politics,

we need

more people with that sort of attitude.

Yep.

Do you know who she is?

She's Margaret Chase Smith,

Maine senator who spoke against McCarthy.

Yep.

McCarthyism.

That is an apt comparison.

And frankly, on either side, but the Democratic side, it's, I mean, there's no equivalence between the Democratic Party and Republican Party right now and what Donald Trump did.

So no, no.

So you'd have to hold a gun to,

just so you know, you have to hold a gun to Liz's head in order to make her work for a Republican.

Okay, good to know.

Liz's book is Any Given Tuesday, which is a reference to every given Sunday.

Just was thinking of the movie, the Cameron Diaz movie.

Wait, oh my God, wait, you called it the Cameron Cameron Diaz movie?

What the hell is wrong with you?

The Cameron Diaz movie?

I love Cameron Diaz.

I love Cameron Diaz.

But that is how I know you are gay is because you call it the Cameron Diaz movie.

No, it is the Al Pacino movie.

He gives one of the greatest.

Oh my god, he overacts in everything.

Yes, he does.

No, but

we both love the movie.

And you like it because of Al overacting Pacino.

And I like it because of sexy Cameron Diaz, who's so good.

Football like life, is a game of inches.

It's a game of you fight, you claw for every inch.

Yes.

And let me just say, you eat every inch of the screen by overacting.

Anyway, Liz, that is the show.

A fight over Cameron Diaz, who is a genius, and she's coming back to acting, which thrills me.

Anyway, well, I think she's so feral.

I love her.

I love everything about her.

Anyway, we'll be back on Tuesday with more pivot.

I'll read us out.

Thank you, Liz.

Today's show was produced by Lara Naiman, Evan Engel, and and Taylor Griffin.

Ernie Enderdat engineered this episode.

Make sure you subscribe to the show wherever you listen to podcasts.

Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media.

We'll be back next week with another breakdown of all things tech and business.

Liz, thank you so much.

Oh my God, thank you, Kara.

This is really, really, really fun.

And Scott, thank you for letting me join.

And I hope I made enough dick jokes for you.