The Missing January 6th Texts, Sinema’s Disruption, and Guest Sari Horwitz on the Opioid Industry

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Hi, everyone.

This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network.

I'm Kara Swisher, and it's the start of Scott-Free August, my favorite time of year and my favorite holiday.

So I've decided to pick my favorite person to take his place and probably best him in about two seconds, comedian and best-selling author, Kathy Griffin.

Kathy, welcome.

I'm very glad to be filling Scott's very tiny shoes.

Tiny shoes.

Kara, you cannot keep, you cannot keep track of your straight.

Your straight has gone wild.

He's running amok.

You don't even know where he is, do you?

Yeah, I don't.

I don't, actually.

Do you even know what state he's in or country or?

I do not.

I don't know where he was.

I think he was in New York for a little bit.

Is he somewhere being sexist?

I'll bet he is.

I'll bet he is.

No, he is he's moving to london he could be anywhere he's he's got a plane and you know he could do whatever he wants he can just go okay so typical typical but i'm glad to have you here what's going with you forget him it's scott free august we don't care about scott at all what are you doing what are you doing what is going on with you right now well i am you know getting my voice back so i had you know lung cancer surgery and i had some yes sounds much better and um i'm back to working a bit which is awesome so i got to do like a couple series and a little part in a movie.

And, you know, I love doing stuff like that.

Lately, your voice sounds a lot better.

I'll tell you that.

For people who don't know, Kathy had a voice issue.

Oh, it does sound better.

I had like this injection thing in my left vocal cord.

I did, let's see, I did an event with Rosie O'Donnell, which was really, really fun.

And so I did like 20 minutes and then I did a QA with Rosie because I knew the audience wanted to get our hot takes.

And then I'm going to do an evening at Largo with Allison Gilmuller.

She wrote, and that's a Democratic fundraiser.

I think it's Zach Blue.

But as far as going actually back on the road, I'm actually going to wait a bit.

First of all, I still am worried about COVID.

You know, I got half a freaking lung.

Right.

That's right.

I am worried about gun stuff and I'm worried about people being crazy, you know?

Really?

So talk about that.

You're worried that what happened with Dave Chappelle or the guy jumped on the stage with him?

Yeah.

Things like that.

I'm someone that had a lot of these incidents prior to this wave happening.

Not bad.

Like one time I had a guy just almost knock me off the stage because he wanted me to sign his book, but it's still like a very jarring thing when that happens.

Yeah.

And so I don't feel comfortable with a lot of places.

Like I, I used to play a ton of markets in Florida and Jersey.

Those are my two most popular states for some reason.

Yeah.

And I don't know where I could play in Florida where there wouldn't be an incident.

Right.

Like there might, I might be fine, but I, it's weird.

It feels like this this almost a bit of a gamble.

Right.

So you'd only be in states like San Francisco.

The country of San Francisco would be good and the country of New York would be good.

And that's it.

Let's see if I can go to the country of Austin, you know?

All right.

Well, let me just say today we're going to be talking about the hearings.

There's more missing messages from January 6th.

Also, Republican senators are finding new reasons to vote no on gay marriage.

And we'll speak with author Sari Horowitz about the real cause of the opioid epidemic.

But first, Taylor Swift says she's not not the biggest celebrity polluter.

Recent reports said Swift's private jet took the biggest toll on the climate among celebrities, but the report's authors are clear.

They can't tell if the celebrity is actually on the plane or if it's just being repositioned to another airport.

Swift says that she regularly loans her jet out to other individuals, and the tracked flights aren't all hers.

Talk about this because Kylie Jenner got in trouble for this.

Have you flown on Taylor Swift's jet or Kylie Jenner's?

I know you live next to the Kardashians.

I have not, but I do fly private whenever I can.

And I know that's a ridiculous indulgence that I never thought I would say.

But I will say in her defense, let's be honest, Taylor Swift, and I've made fun of her for many years.

You have.

She can be a little, you know, a little on the self-righteous.

That's all I'm saying.

But she's very, I think she's a great girl and all this other stuff.

But I don't really think she should.

I mean, I think she's someone who gets harassed more than people realize.

And I will respect her forever.

And here's why.

There was a case where there was a sleazy DJ and he grabbed her butt during a meet and greet.

And you do these meet and greets and they're all, they're tied in with the concert.

And sometimes you like, you don't know what you're getting and all this other stuff.

And I love that she went to, she took that guy to court and she sat there without a lot of publicity in like this courtroom and testified.

So

I think she's great.

And I think, can you really call yourself a feminist if you're going to like rail on Kylie Jenner?

Especially when you're letting guys that have the same money or the same whatever.

And so that was like hard for me because I like to think I can call women dirty whores and be a feminist.

Yes.

Maybe, maybe that's sort of something to think about, which is like, if we're really going to like, look, the one, the one guy that you introduced me to that I sort of like is Mark Cuban.

Yeah.

He might be the least heinous of all of your

Silicon Valley.

Okay.

I mean, that's a mix.

Honey, you got to get out of that crowd, first of all.

That crowd's going nowhere.

We're going to get to them.

We're going to get to Hainis in a minute.

So at least he seems to be doing something.

But I'm just saying, like, I'm sure Mark Cuban uses more jet fuel than Taylor Swift or whatever.

But I don't know.

I just think it's, they're kind of reaching.

I wouldn't say like, that's the number one reason for carbon emissions.

Yes, I would say not, not at all.

And on that note, Elon Musk, who cannot be left out of anything, is planning to build his own private airport in Texas, the airport to services Texas-based companies, but plans will require both FAA and local regulators' approvals.

I'll just like let you go on Elon.

How do you feel about Elon these days?

Oh, he's so gross with the population stuff.

Yeah.

I mean, when I saw him at Code, which is an amazing festival of thinkers.

Yes, you're invited this year.

It's in September.

There.

There's your commercial.

Yeah.

Okay.

Thank you.

Thank you so much.

I have to say, I was really blown away by hearing him talk.

I've heard him talk in person twice.

And the stuff he says that I think is so provably false is just bizarre.

But I will tell you, the bros that had questions, like he would say stuff that I thought was horrifying.

Like he's building the, like it's that movie, The Biosphere with Pauly Shore.

He's basically Pauli Shore.

And so he's building the biosphere on Mars.

Nobody wants to go to Mars.

You know, he has, here's the, here's one problem that nobody asked him about.

What about the new oxygen?

I'm just wondering how it's going to go in the new oxygen in your crappy, smelly bubble.

He has plants.

And it's only rich people can go there.

And only people that want to be with other people who i assume would give their money to elon musk at this point i mean i don't think even grimes is going to go i mean it and if she doesn't go i'm not going to go okay

let me ask you a question what do you think about him buying twitter seriously what do you how did you feel when he was up for buying twitter but now apparently i mean we were we're all loosey with the football You know, I mean, I'm sort of, I'm just a civilian, so I'm learning about sort of the law parts.

And I think it's fascinating the case is already at trial.

Like they already had a big hearing.

And then the trial is as soon as October in the chancery, which I think is, I don't, I have to learn more about the chancery.

But

I'm, it makes me sad because I know this is so simplistic and silly, but I'm one of those dumb Americans that walks around going, man, the stuff he could do.

And the stuff he could do, by the way, even as an immigrant.

But like when you're rolling, once you start rolling with Kanye and Joe Rogan, it's like, like, I don't know if you can like even really talk to those guys anymore.

Like I was talking to Judd Appetow and I said, because I haven't seen Joe and Joe Rogan in years.

And I said to Judd, I go, if I ran into Joe, I haven't seen him in probably 15 years, I could probably like have a conversation.

You were on a show, correct?

You were on a show together.

No, no, that was a girl named Vicki Lewis.

He was on a show called News Radio.

Oh, News Radio.

Okay.

When I was on Suddenly Susan.

Right.

That's right.

Okay.

And I knew him because I knew that show so well.

I was friends with Phil Hartman and Andy Dick and David Foley and stuff.

And so there was some sort of like cross-pollination.

It's kind of the Roganization of America that I now am more worried about than Trumpism.

Really?

And so that's one of the things that when I think about someone like Elon Musk, I'm blown away that he doesn't consider himself a fascist when he says like blindly fascistic things.

Right.

And I,

you know, it's just one of those sad things because I think of growing up and all these immigrants who came here and made our country better.

And then we gave them awards.

And I feel like that whole thing, and that's why I brought up Cuban, for him to be doing the prescription drug thing is what billionaires should do.

All right.

What would you have Elon do?

If you had Elon money, what would you do?

Oh, my gosh.

I mean, you have to, I'm sorry, but tech stuff, you have to start with environment.

And I know nothing about that, but I would think it's, you know, the guy that sort of monetized the electric car in a way that had never been done after that was an industry that was put out by the auto industry so famously 25, 30 years ago.

He could have made such a bigger footprint with that.

And

it's a shame that Teslas are considered like a Libtard elite electric car.

And, you know, he could have made all that stuff like more affordable and still been a gazillionaire.

I guess the part that frustrates you is like all the things he could do, like a prescription drug initiative, like Cuba's doing.

And it would barely barely even make a dent.

You look at all the stuff Oprah did all those years.

I mean, just year after year after year, it's kind of a big part of like being able to stomach these people that have billions of dollars.

Let me just say one man using his celebrity for good, Jon Stewart, laid into Republican senators who voted against the Veterans Health Care Bill.

Here's what he said.

I'm used to the hypocrisy.

Christina Keenan will tell you from BFW, she sat in an office with Mitch McConnell and a war veteran from Kentucky, and he looked that man in the eyes and he said,

And he lied to him because Mitch McConnell yesterday flipped.

So what do you think about Jon Stewart on the war path?

That video he did

against Ted Cruz was brilliant.

The PAC Act would fund health care for vets exposed to toxins in burn pits.

What do you think about what he's doing?

I think it is so fantastic, and it is such a shame that more

folks don't do it because the thing that John has going for him that I admire, I'm jealous of, is John also has an amazing infrastructure.

So when John wants to go to Capitol Hill, he's got his years of working with these guys.

He's got team from, you know, his television show for years.

And

he's so good at making things happen.

But what's key is that then he turns out to be such an excellent ambassador.

He's gotten so good at this stuff.

Everything from the humor of the famous picture where he sees Mitch McConnell and he's kind of laughing because he looks like a turtle to sitting down and just giving it to the House and Senate as they should have to take it because it's very frustrating as a Democrat to hear the Republicans get away with keep acting like they care about veterans.

I'm someone who actually walked the walk, I like to say.

I performed in Afghanistan and in

Iraq.

And, you know, it's amazing to think you can look out at these men and women who are, they're like kids, Kara.

Like you go over there and you're like, oh my God, everybody's 18.

Like they're like kids.

And you go,

how would you ever keep this out of a bill?

Right.

And it just gets so nuts.

And that's the part I don't know how we get out of because I'm 61, but I came from a time where I actually.

don't remember necessarily even knowing like what religion the president was.

Like I don't remember really, I mean, I knew party, but it wasn't nearly like this.

So I think John's a really important voice, honestly.

Should he run for president?

There was a run for office.

No, no.

No, no.

He's, he's good at this.

He's a, he's an incredibly effective communicator.

But, you know, I think that we, although he has really has really, no, more legit experience than many legislators for sure.

Like, I'm not kidding.

But I just think we should go back to the business of being with actual politicians, because I think a politician is a worthy endeavor.

And, you know, my dad was a pre-seeding captain.

He did it for free.

But like all these levels that we're now burning to the ground with school boards and local mayors and especially election officials, all the years that we've made fun of all politicians is now that we're seeing, I think, the effect of it.

But politics

is a worthy living.

Nobody gets, you know,

rich off it.

Well, they do.

Some of them do.

Rich McConnell has a lot of money.

So do they all do.

They all seem to do, including Nancy Pelosi.

They're all pretty wealthy doing their jobs.

I know.

That part's not good.

No, no, no, it's not.

I'm very much hoping they can stop the stock trading.

Yeah, exactly.

But speaking of someone who may not have as much money, Alex Jones has filed for bankruptcy.

The filing comes as Jones is on trial for defamation.

Curiously, documents reveal that Jones' online store raked in more than $160 million in three years as he pushed Sandy Hook conspiracy theories.

A judge has ordered the trial to continue to a verdict despite the bankruptcy filing.

What do you think about this?

I was actually, I've been watching a live feed of the trial.

Really?

It is shocking because

he didn't show up.

He said he had some like medical condition, but then he did his like YouTube or whatever shows where he, yeah, he hawks like beet juice.

Like I thought that was a joke.

But these people that are high up in MAGA world, they're hawking beet juice and it's just vitamin and like fitness stuff.

Like you're going to look at Alex Jones for fitness advice.

And then he showed up the second day with four bodyguards.

Yeah.

And you know, you've got these Sandy Hook families there.

Yeah.

And then he stormed out of the courtroom the first day he was there.

And now his InfoWars like correspondents, big quotes, are testifying.

And it's just, it's just heartbreaking.

So today we heard from two of the parents, devastating testimony, but I'm always scared.

You know, I just feel like these days the court system is being so exposed, you know, for what it is.

And I know the parent company for InfoWars has declared bankruptcy, but who knows where he's socking his personal wealth?

I feel like these guys always have a way of like socking personal wealth.

But

this is just one of those things where if this doesn't take him down,

what possibly could happen?

Well, it's sort of like Trump, right?

In a lot of ways.

I mean, I did an interview with Len Posner,

who was the parent of Noah, who died there.

And it was astonishing what

he and his family were going through, including how the online companies, you know, allowed all kinds of hoax sites to proliferate.

And the only way they could beat them was through copyright, not because it was wrong or anything else.

And they had a very hard time taking down Alex Jones.

I haranged them about Alex Jones for a very long time before they took it down.

And they felt like he had free speech.

You know, I was like, well, yeah, but these families are undergoing enormous strain because of what happened already.

And to have this guy selling vitamins on top of their children's death was just repulsive.

I mean, just, I think you're right.

I think he is, it's astonishing that he's still walking around free.

That's the part that really drives you crazy, right?

Given all the damage he's done to our country

and all the damage he's done everywhere.

And yet to come.

I mean, these, none of these folks are done.

Not Roger Stone, not Manafort.

Manafort has a book coming out.

Yep, Paul Manafort, absolutely.

And Trump himself.

How are you feeling about Trump these days?

You know that I did a gig one time at Bedminster

with Trump for The Apprentice.

And it was for a challenge.

I wasn't a contestant, but it was for a challenge.

And he called me and he gave me 50 grand to come roast him at Bedminster, which is ironic.

He said, I want you to roast me.

Don't be too tough on the hair, but I want you to roast me.

He kind of forgot about that later on when I took a certain photo.

What did you say?

What was your roast?

Oh, he was fine with it there.

But later on, when he was president, obviously he was like, how dare she?

She's damaging my, my children to have to see this picture and stuff.

But no,

on the apprentice, he was a completely different person.

He was just like, what I try to tell my friends who I love, like my friends that are like get mad at me because I didn't like, you know, quote, cut his head off sooner.

Right.

So I'm like, no, no, all those years at NBC Universal, he was just this like big, sweaty, smelly buffoon.

And everybody knew he was like kind of a has-been.

And everybody knew that he was certainly not this billionaire, much less maybe even multi-millionaire.

And, you know,

that I'd never heard, I never talked politics with him.

I didn't know the racial stuff with him.

The women's stuff was like, I just knew Melania was ridiculous and that, you know what I mean?

Like the daughter's horrible.

She's really dumb.

And Ivana, who's buried there?

I mean, can you imagine?

What, what did she take that was worth it?

Like, why would she just come out against him?

How much money?

What was it?

I don't know what her deal was up until the end.

I know.

But she was cooking to the end, Ivana.

And she's still being, she's still helping him out with taxes.

So let me ask you a question.

But how do you feel about him now?

How do you feel about him now?

Do you think he's coming back?

Are you worried about it?

I mean, obviously, he made you, he ruined your life in many ways, that picture.

Yeah, he had a direct impact on my life for sure.

And

I think, you know, there's a part of me that looks at him and he really does look so unhealthy.

I almost can't imagine him sort of making it any much longer, longer but we've been wrong about that before and so you know he does seem to have the griffin quality of i'll never die just you know my family lives to be 100 so sorry everybody and i also i also am very curious to see what happens with desantis because i can't imagine him

actually like being cool with DeSantis running.

I doubt DeSantis will be the running mate, which unfortunately would probably be very successful for both of them.

But I am definitely one of those people put me in the camp of I'm getting less worried about Trump and more worried about everything from DeSantis just to all of the local electors we're not going to call, all the attorneys general that are going to slip in.

And do you think Trump is a has been now again or not?

I think he's going back on the D-list, which is sort of funny.

But I definitely think he's feeling it because,

you know, you've got his people are actually starting to get real live indictments.

He's probably, he's definitely scared about Fulton Fulton County, but he's probably pretty scared about the stuff in Florida, too, with Joel Greenberg and Matt Gates and possibly DeSantis.

But what I find just the most threatening about him is the same thing now I find about a bunch of them, which is just how they've mastered drilling down to the local level and getting people on, like I said, school boards, city councils, local mayors, and then big city mayors, and then, of course, real life senators that make a difference.

And also someday we'll find out what's actually going on with cinema and mansion.

Because they're just Republicans now.

And we need to stop acting like we have the, we don't really have the Senate, Kara.

We don't.

No, no, but maybe, maybe we will.

Anyway, let me ask you a final question.

Are the MAGA people still in touch with you?

Are the repercussions still happening from that photograph of Trump that you did?

Or is that past you now?

Oh, yes.

There's one guy came to my house a couple of weeks ago and he's this guy that made this really crazy gold statue of Trump where Trump sort of looks like a dwarf.

And he like brings it to CPAC and all this other stuff.

Oh, that one.

Yeah.

So that guy just showed it up at my house.

Not with its statue.

No, but he brought me a big painting.

And I think because he's a gay, he still wants to draw me.

He drew a picture of you.

Yes.

And found you.

Yes.

And gave it to you?

He left it here, but my husband just kept saying she doesn't live here.

Oh.

All right.

Let's get to our first big story.

There's a growing mystery around missing texts from January 6th.

The Secret Service now blames iMessage for those missing records, in other words, Apple, and says it might stop using that service.

The reports say that text messages from two key officials in the Trump government are also missing.

The Department of Homeland Security says that it lost the texts of Acting Secretary Chad Wolfe and his Acting Deputy Secretary Ken Cuccinelli in the period leading up to January 6th.

Interesting.

Wolf says he turned over all records to the DHS when he left the job in January.

I know you're not a cybersecurity expert and most people think this is ridiculous, but does any of this make sense?

And what is your assessment of it?

Well, I do.

I'm not a cybersecurity expert, but I do have experience with the U.S.

Secret Service because

they were the ones

that did that investigation.

Yeah.

And they worked with the U.S.

Attorney's Office.

So in tandem, and they were considering charging me with conspiracy to assassinate the president of the United States.

So they didn't lose any of mine.

I don't know what to tell you.

I had to produce everything.

They were not taking any like, oh, well, I used Snapchat the wrong way.

So now it's gone forever.

I'm just once again blown away.

I was so scared.

Like I wasn't going to screw up this investigation and say like, oh, I lost some text, Wink.

So this is just a shocker.

This is one time I wish I was a cybersecurity expert.

Right, right.

Well, I'm a little bit of one.

I've talked to a lot.

And I have to say, they all think this is ridiculous.

They think it's kind of astonishing.

But can they really not find them?

I think they can.

I think they've, I think they did something to them.

Kara, Kara, you have to call the government.

I, I, we have written about it, I've helped people write about it.

Okay, but what are you a good enough hacker to find them?

Uh, I am not, but I know hackers that are good enough to find them, and that's my assumption: is that they'll be, they'll be, someone will find them.

I'm sure other governments have them.

I mean, I just, it feels as if it's it's all bullshit.

Drop a dime, bitch.

I will.

Your country needs you.

i've tried i'm helping out all the reporters who are doing this um i will i will drop a dime bitch okay but this by the way this director of secret service announced that he'll delay his retirement as the investigation continues he was supposed to leave the agency and take a position with snap a company best known for disappearing messages which is ironic so i i don't know what to say kathy i don't know i'm sure i can prevail upon some of my tech people to find these messages but do you feel like it's a cover-up, correct?

That's what it feels like to you, given your experience with the Secret Service.

Did you find them professional?

Here's what I feel, honey.

I feel you should get out the Rolodex and let's start making calls live on the air and let's call, because you probably know some of those hackers that are in prison.

Right, that's true.

I do.

Yes, right?

You could be like Clary Starling, where you go visit a hacker and you're like all nervous and then the hacker comes up and you make a deal to save democracy.

Do you have to do everything?

I hear you.

Speaking of secret conversations, congressman matt gates told roger stone your other friend that he could expect a pardon new footage reveals the two spoke as stone was awaiting trial on charges of obstructing a congressional investigation stone was convicted and later pardoned by then president trump uh

matt gates i mean he and of course they were caught on a hot mic that roger stone was was taping so talk to me about those two Well, you got to love how these fools love to videotape themselves criming.

And then bragging and like exaggerating.

And so then when they finally go to court, they're like, ha ha, I was just trying to impress the other Nazis.

They're very into impressing other Nazis, by the way.

So this is just one of those things that this is one of the reasons that a lot of us get worried about the Department of Justice in general, which is it just seems like many of these investigations have been opened.

And

I would have been nice if Matt Gates could have gone down sooner so he can't go out there and do what he's doing, which is all these characters go out every weekend anyway, and they're huge in the MAGA world.

And they are sometimes it's like D-list and 30 people show up and sometimes it's 10,000.

But every weekend, you got Patrick Byrne, Joe Flynn, Mike Flynn,

you know, Carrie Lake and all those folks.

So I feel like we're in this point where we're starting to see the dam break, like Liz Cheney said, but it's it's now a race against the clock

considering what else could be done in the meantime because meaning race against what clock the midterm the midterm elections but also racing against just the clock until they do something else that is affecting the outcome of an election and it could be in florida or stone is or it could and gates is in florida too and it could be some little congressperson we never heard of that's in you know colorado like ken bunk or something so there's so many that are like signed on to this kind of corruption.

I'm just one of those Dems that is fearing we're like never gonna get ahead of like preventing the next voter fraud.

Yeah, they're they're relentless.

One of the things I say to people is: this group is relentless, and that's a really difficult thing to fight when you're not as relentless as the group you're fighting.

Although Gates tried to shame a teen abortion activist, she turned around and raised more than a million dollars for abortion charities, so that was good.

There's ways to get yourself going, correct?

Oh, yeah.

She's fantastic.

And also, she's such a great example, kind of like Jon Stewart, of like, hey, this is, this is something that can be done.

Like, what I love about Juliana is she loves inspiring other young people and young Democrats in Texas.

And I love that she keeps saying, like, we really are a purple state.

We're just gerrymandered.

Help us.

And sometimes it's just that simple messaging that people finally get because they are masters.

of the projection style of messaging and trying to convince Dems that they're all, you know, know, pedophiles and they're keeping that whole piece of parlor lizard people thing going more than you would think.

We're all groomers.

We're all groomers.

Yes, I get a lot of groomer

and texts and things like that.

All right, Kathy, we're going to go on a quick break.

When we come back, Kristen Sinema is AWOL on the Inflation Reduction Act, and we'll speak with friend of Pivot, Sari Horwitz, about the real causes of the opioid epidemic.

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Kathy, we're back.

The surprise Schumer Mansion bill, speaking of Joe Manchin, is far from a done deal.

It's still unknown if Kristen Cinema will support it.

So what's the deal with her?

You were just saying,

she's a Republican.

She could sink the bill.

She could not sink the bill.

Where do we think we are?

I mean, it's just such a shame.

And let me tell you something.

I feel like a sucker because I see her get in.

I'm like, oh my gosh, there's a cool girl who's bisexual with a purple wig.

Love it.

The future is here.

I didn't know she's like a psycho-Russian asset.

I mean, they have parties in Republican circles where they thank her.

Yeah.

Like,

you know, and so that's not good, you know.

And look, Schumer is too much of a centrist for me.

And I don't think he can whip his caucus the way Nancy can.

I think she's such a rock star.

But

I don't know if, I don't know if you could ever be prepared for Mansion in cinema because,

you know, Mansion was like a Heidi Heid to me or like

one of the almost like a Chris Coons.

But now he's really trying to make his stamp in feel, yeah, they'll vote with us for certain judges and stuff as they should.

But then to hold back these type

this type of progress in Congress,

it's just, it just can't help but feel like she is a stupid idiot, ignoramus, who just wants to be like InstaFamous.

And that's so frustrating at this time.

There's more to it than that.

FEC filing, so she's raising money from Republicans.

She's someone who is not what you think she was, as you talked about, but she also

likes to pretend she's a Maverick, correct?

That's, I think that's the way she acts, correct?

Like, she's a Maverick and she'll, and same thing with Manchin is I don't think about anything else.

I try to work with everybody.

Manchin said the same thing about whether he was going to support Biden even if Biden ran again.

And so I think they like to consider themselves neither Republican nor Democrat, even though they ran as Democrats.

Right.

Well, then they can be Jim Jeffers and they can be an Independent or they can even be that.

Remember that idiot, Scott Brown?

Oh, God, Kier, I sat next to him at dinner one time.

What an idiot.

Like, what seriously, this guy is seriously stupid.

And he was supposed to be the swing vote for all these votes.

And all he did was talk about how much he loved being a senator because he had this sweet basement apartment and a big screen.

And the old ball and chain couldn't bother him.

He could just watch games with the other senators.

That's why he became a senator.

So cinema is like, she just wants money to buy more kookie classes.

You know,

she's just awful.

And she's, it's so bad as a chick.

I'm like, oh, you're screwing up for the rest of us.

And then Mansion, he's got the daughters, got the conflict of interest with big oil.

Yeah.

And look, that's what the McConnells do.

So I wish we could do what they do.

And I wish we could turn on them so much where we get them kicked out.

But we also have to have those amazing candidates ready.

So we need Jamie Harrison to get on it.

And I also think everybody should

campaign as hard as Beto.

You think he will win this time?

Most people don't.

He's amazing.

He's an amazing campaigner.

I know, but most people think Gray Rabbit is doing rather well.

Same thing in Georgia against Stacey Stacey Abrams.

Kemp is doing, Brian Kemp is doing really well.

Not in Florida with Dr.

Oz, of course.

Please feel free to make a comment about Dr.

Oz.

Oh, okay.

Well, first of all, it's Pennsylvania.

But I was on the Dr.

Oz show one time, and I just thought it was funny that he was douchey.

Yeah.

Why?

Why were you on it?

Oh, it was, honey, I was trying to sell a book, and God knows I would have done like a snuff film.

Well, you can only do one.

That's the thing about snuff films.

A little dark for this show.

Sorry.

Anyway, yeah, so I was on and he had to think about like, he wanted to do a thing about diets.

And I was like, well, I, you know, when I'm on the road a lot, I kind of have to almost eat like an athlete.

And then I like made my like pre-show meal.

And it was just funny.

He did like, he like rolled his eyes the whole time.

And, you know, the audience kind of takes their cue from like the host.

But.

I'm so D-list that the whole time I'm thinking like, I can't screw this up because I don't want to piss off like whoever owns his show, like Sony or King World or all those behemoths.

And so I just remember it was one of those gigs where I was like smiling and I'm in a tight dress and hair and makeup and high heels and trying to plug my book and my concert tour.

And it was just what I was like, I walked out of there like, oh, that's didn't sell any tickets.

But he's also done almost a cinema level turnabout.

Yeah.

That once again, like Trump, I just knew him as like this another guy in the syndication world.

And that's a very foreign world.

You have to appeal to everybody and the flyovers and the daytime ladies who are ironing and all that stuff.

And they loved him for a long time because I guess we never knew he was really like this.

Like this.

Well, it doesn't look like he's going to win, actually.

John Fetterman seems to have him beat at this moment in time, at least.

Anyway, getting back to the Senate, Republican senators might choose payback over policy when it comes to gay marriage.

At least that's the message Susan Collins sent last week.

She said the GOP senators might withhold their vote on a bill that would protect gay marriage over anger at a secret deal between Chuck Schumer and Joe Manchin.

She's still working to support the bill.

Susan Collins, tell me, tell me what you think of this gay marriage bill.

Republicans, 71% of Americans support gay marriage, according to a Gallup poll.

That's a record high.

They also support abortion rights, but here we are.

What do you think about this gay marriage bill going nowhere?

Well, first of all, I think Susan Collins is like Kirsten Sinema's mother.

Like, just think of them as like-minded mothers and daughters or something.

She's just turned out to be a nightmare just because she and Murkowski lie.

Just be, just be a Republican who's like, oh, I'm anti-choice.

You know, I'll be over there with the guys fist bumping.

But that's why I think it's really honestly important what Jon Stewart did last week, because Susan Collins kind of stood there on the floor and appeared to say, we're so petty, we're going to hold back this health for the vets or gay marriage.

It really sounds like she's saying that.

And, you know, I think we have to realize that this is now a party that wants to take away your existing rights.

And I, for one, don't feel like that's sunk in with most Americans yet at all.

Unfortunately, it's starting to, but I think that's what we're looking at.

And so it's just important.

Like, I don't do like rock the vote anymore because I'm like, no, I'm not, I'm no longer saying get out and vote.

Vote blue this time.

Like, that's kind of the whole message because they said the type of things, you know, you've got Susan Collins who has the nerve to go on the Sunday shows and say, oh, Trump learned his lesson, or I'm going to give Brett Kavanaugh the benefit of the doubt.

And so Amy Coney Barrett.

We know what she's getting.

We know they keep having her on Sunday shows.

It's a bummer.

Yeah.

Yeah.

What would you say to her if you could interview her?

I would say you should resign.

And then hopefully I would have a better candidate for people to vote for from the Democratic Party.

Wow.

Younger, female.

What joke would you make about Susan Collins?

I'd probably take a joke that I'm going to credit with my friend Beth Lapitas because I think it's the greatest abortion joke ever written.

And I'd go up to Susan and I'd say, Susan, I'm so glad I ran into you.

I'm just on my way to get an abortion.

I'm not pregnant or anything.

I just want to get one while I still can.

And then I would, I don't know, I'd probably tape it.

Maybe I'd like hold the phone off like they do.

Anyway, speaking of indignancies, let's bring in our friend of Pivot.

Sari Horwitz is an investigative reporter for the Washington Post and co-author of American Cartel Inside, The Battle to Bring Down the Opioid Industry.

Welcome, Sari.

And for those who don't know, Sari and I worked together at the Washington Post 109 years ago.

It's good to see you again.

It's good to see you, Kara.

Thanks for having me on.

So on this topic, though, boy, now I recently interviewed Patrick Rad and Keefe about this issue.

I got so furious about it, and this book made me more furious.

So let's talk, but that was mostly about the sacklers and Purdue Pharma, and that's where a lot of the attention has been.

So talk a little bit about

where the opiate blame goes, the epidemic goes.

You say it's more widespread than one family.

I'd love to know why.

Right.

So Kara, this is the story people don't know about about the opioid epidemic.

Patrick wrote a great book on Purdue and the Sacklers, but it's so much bigger than that.

So a lot of companies that we know about, Walmart, Walgreens, CVS, Johnson Johnson, were huge players in the opioid epidemic.

And actually some companies I didn't really know about, like Mallancroft from St.

Louis.

And these companies together,

after Purdue and the Sacklers had really faded, the government went after them, prosecuted them.

These companies moved into the market and they really fueled the crisis and manufactured and shipped 100 billion pain pills, highly addictive pain pills across the country.

And it was so bad that people in the Drug Enforcement Administration that we interviewed said These were like drug dealers and business suits.

They were like the Mexican cartels, but instead of guns, they had lobbyists and lawyers and business suits.

So why do they have such a hard time fighting them?

Because they have these lobbyists or that they're bought and paid for?

The politicians are bought and paid for?

Where's the real weak point in dealing with it?

The people, the doctors continue to prescribe them.

People still want them.

Where is the real problem point from your point of view?

Washington, believe it or not, Kara, is a huge player in this story.

And we tell this through a DEA agent named Joe Renazzizi.

So Joe Renazizi is a lawyer, he's a pharmacologist, he's a longtime DEA agent for 30 years, and he was in charge of the unit that regulated and policed the drug industry.

And he figured out early on that this went beyond the doctors, this went beyond the pharmacies, this went to the companies, the manufacturers and the distributors who knew where every pill was going in America and kept shipping, even though we were at the height of the opiate epidemic.

So Joe Renizzi goes after the companies.

He and his team start, they figure out because they have a confidential DEA database that says where every pill goes.

They start shutting down their warehouses.

They start forcing them to pay millions of dollars in fines.

And the companies are angry and they fight back.

And so what they do is first they take the DEA to court.

They lose there.

So they decide, okay, we got to change the law.

They hire high-priced lobbyists.

And this is so interesting because some of these lobbyists actually came from the DEA.

They lured them away from the DEA.

And they get to members of Congress through campaign contributions and lobbyists.

And they actually help write a law that undercuts the DEA and our government, the people who were supposed to protect us from highly addictive pain pills,

the companies undercut them by getting a law passed that basically defangs the DEA.

It was actually the most stunning story.

And Scott and I, Scott Hayam and I, wrote this book together.

I think, Kara, you went to journalism school with him.

We were stunned by the culpability of Washington in this epidemic.

Well, I love your book.

And I actually am

in recovery.

I'm actually a little over two years clean from prescription pills.

So they really took me down.

A little over two years ago, I tried to take my life.

I took about 100 benzos and stuff.

And

I am a classic case of someone that I got all my pills from doctors.

And

back in the day, I, you know, like when you're an actor, you get like some injuries sometimes.

Like if you're on stage, you fall or whatever.

So I think initially I was probably given painkillers when they would give you like 90 for a broken fingernail, practically.

And,

you know, I think what what people don't necessarily understand is I really did not fall victim to that addiction until I was honestly like 57 is when like my quote bottom was.

And I probably was toying with them for like about five years prior to that.

But I think that folks should understand that this, this, these drugs, they do seem particularly vicious because

they know that a lot of people like me are thinking, well, I'm not doing drugs.

So, you know, I'm definitely disappointed to hear that it's, you know, legislators I've probably voted for.

It's one of the reasons I'm still an Elizabeth Warren fan because I feel like she's one of the few voices that seems to be out there.

Because when I hear that, like unbeknownst to me, there was, there were forces actually changing the law so that when I was going through my recovery, I almost couldn't even like go back and figure out like how stuff happened is very discouraging.

And

I did feel like when I, because I would say about pill addiction, there's this expression in AA that first it's magic, then it's medicine, then it's misery.

And that's, to me, what, that's what like those painkillers were.

And it sucks because you take them for a legit reason.

And, you know, then next thing you know, you're dependent on them.

And it's a tragic thing.

So

I just get overwhelmed because it seems like this issue is so massive.

I hope there's some hope in the future.

Because when I read sometimes what these congresspeople or senators take from a pharma company, frankly, it's nothing.

It's like 25K and they'll just sell you out.

Like not all these guys are getting exorbitant sums and they shouldn't be.

But it's pretty discouraging.

So I'm hoping we can make some progress on this issue.

But it feels like Congress is fighting against me, you know, like against somebody trying to learn about this.

I'm so sorry that you went through this and you're right.

It's virtually, these pain pills are virtually heroin in a pill.

And Scott and I traveled all over the country.

We went to the hardest hit areas, and we sat with people like you who are going through recovery, people who have lost their loved ones.

Some towns we went to in southern Ohio, West Virginia, New Hampshire.

Everybody in these towns knew somebody who died from an opioid addiction, who was still struggling, who went through recovery, came out and gone back on them.

I mean, it was such a vicious cycle.

And the thing that made us so, I guess, outraged was you juxtaposed that pain and what you went through, Kathy, with we got hold of thousands of internal documents from these companies.

And it's so upsetting, these emails and these memos, because not only did the companies know exactly where the pills were going and

where people were dying from these pain pills, but they were laughing about it.

They were mocking addicts.

And, you know, there's one case, a company, a amirisource bergen a distributor so there's manufacturers they're distributors there's pharmacies amirisource bergen passed around a parody and it was to the tune of you remember that sitcom uh the beverly hillbillies the 1960s sitcom they changed the words to make fun of Appalachian pillbillies.

I mean, it's really, it's really sick.

And they passed that around.

And can I just read you one email from

a company in St.

Louis?

This is Malancrod.

And the national salesman was a very successful guy named Victor Borrelli.

And he is selling to a distributor, trying to get him to buy more pills.

And he tells this distributor, his name is Steve Cochran, that 1,200 bottles of Oxycodone 30 milligram tablets had just been shipped to his distributor.

That's a lot of Oxycodone.

And Cochran, the distributor guy, says, keep them coming, flying out of here.

It's like people are addicted to these things or something.

Oh, wait, people are.

And Borelli writes back, just like Doritos.

Keep eating, we'll make more.

Whoa, that's sick.

Yeah.

I mean, the callousness and the insensitivity.

So the Sacklers agreed to pay.

The Sacklers are sort of the poster.

people for this kind of thing.

A $6 billion settlement, which most people didn't think was a lot.

There's been several billion-dollar settlements.

They had to give up control of their company.

Where is the impact?

Is it enough?

What has to happen to stop that, given that it is like Doritos?

All joking aside, it becomes like that.

It comes indispensable and you cannot stop taking these things.

What is the solution from your perspective?

Well, Kara, that's a really good question.

So just some context to that.

So 4,000 cities, towns, counties, Indian nations have sued the companies, Purdue, but also all the other ones.

But there was this massive, beyond the Purdue settlement that you mentioned, there's a massive $26 billion settlement between Johnson and Johnson, three of the distributors, and these 4,000 plaintiffs.

And over 18 years, that 26 billion is supposed to go to prevention, treatment, education, very important for kids.

But you know, when we go and talk to the families

all over who are suffering, what they're really angry about, yes, there's money that's being paid.

They're angry that no executive of these Fortune 500 companies has gone to jail for this crime.

And they haven't even been prosecuted.

No one's been prosecuted.

No one's gone to jail.

It's like the banking.

It's like the mortgage crisis.

Exactly.

So there are like 40,000 people in jail right now on marijuana charges, but no charges have been brought against any executive of these companies.

And the families feel like that's what's got to happen to really be an example and to show that the government is serious about about dealing with this crisis.

But that will not happen, correct?

That is not in the cards.

You know, it's highly unlikely.

We write about in our book that the DEA tried to make several criminal cases, one against McKesson, one against Malancrot, and that in the end, the government settled.

They fined them, which was kind of like a traffic ticket for these companies, frankly, and

no one was prosecuted.

In my profession, if I do business with one company, they can say, After this, you can't go and do this.

Uh, for example, let me give you a better example.

If I'm going to be on American Idol and I'm just an unknown, you know, 17-year-old or whatever, it's my understanding on that show that you then sign something saying, if you're a successful singer, whether you win or not, you can only work with like the label with the American Idol.

And you can't, I think, go even really out on your own for like three years.

And I am, I find it so discouraging that DEA

agents or whatever then go become lobbyists.

And we all know why, because the money's great and all this other stuff.

But is there anything we can do to at least have a cushion where somebody can't just go from the DEA to one of these, these big pharmaceuticals or company that facilitates all this?

Kathy, that is a great question, because that is Washington at its worst.

And that happened big time during the opioid epidemic.

In our book, we have this guy, Lyndon Barber, who worked at the DEA along with Joe Renizzi.

He was one of the top lawyers.

He knew how the DEA worked.

He knew the weaknesses.

He was lured over to the drug industry for a lot of money.

Not only did Lyndon Barber, and this is all about money we're talking about, not only did he work against the DEA moving forward, but he helped write that law I was talking about that was passed by Congress, that was signed by the Obama administration.

Unfortunately, no no one was paying attention.

And it completely undercut the DEA.

And not only people from the DEA have done this, the Drug Enforcement Administration, people from the Justice Department, former deputy attorney general, attorneys general, have gone and worked for the industry and then they lobby.

And so that's a really upsetting.

The people that are in government to protect us.

from just the kind of pills you talked about, Kathy, the kind of pills you took that hurt you and hurt so many others.

They're there to protect us from dangerous narcotics.

There are laws to protect us.

But those people went over to the other side and worked against us.

And it's stunning and that's a big part of our book.

If you could wave a magic wand and say one thing could happen, each of you, what would it be?

And Kathy, what would you like to see happen to these people who you really were a victim of over prescription and the whole

way they pull you into these things?

What would each of you like to see happen?

First, Sari.

Well, so we're at a different part in history now.

I've talked to you a little bit about the history of the story, but the problem is this epidemic continues to this day with fentanyl, which, you know, the companies started this with prescription pills and it led directly to fentanyl, which is our crisis now.

It's pouring over, it's pouring over the border.

And just to put that in context, every day, 200 people die from fentanyl.

That's like a 200, that's like a Boeing 237 jet with 200 people going down every day, every day.

And if that happened, if a jet went down every day, after about the second or third, I think people would think it's a crisis.

What needs to really happen at this moment in history is that people need to educate their kids who are in college and high school not to take a Xanax, not to take

a pill that looks like oxycodone or or and even this is with cocaine too because if it has fentanyl in it even the smallest amount like equal to a couple flecks of salt, it could kill you instantly.

And so that's what our country is facing now.

Like I said, the company started with prescription pills, but it's now the Mexican cartels learned from our drug companies and they're sending fentanyl over and some of it looks like counterfeit Malancrot oxycodone.

And so I think right now that the message has to be to save our kids from dying.

Wow.

I agree.

And I talk to my kids about this all the time.

Kathy, what would you want?

Well, the fentanyl thing really scares me because I was like lucky in that I guess I sort of missed that.

But I have heard of, I have a very good friend who was,

as I lovingly say, she was a pill girl and she really did accidentally overdose on fentanyl because she thought she was taking one of her, like a Xanax or something.

So that stuff is more frightening than anybody realizes, whether you're taking it or have our loved one who knows someone is taking stuff like that.

I guess what I'd hope to see is the laws simply go back rapidly to being in our favor.

But I would like to know who has been good in this area and who has failed us.

And if there's any way to, and like we're talking about, Juliana and John Stewart, and it would be nice to be able to publicly pressure legislators who are on our side and doing the right thing to be encouraged and those who are taking money from these companies to be discouraged.

And also they should be forced to learn more about what these drugs do to their own constituents.

Well, it's interesting because a lot of people speak out against the opioid epidemic.

I would say most congressmen and senators speak out against the opioid epidemic.

The question is, you know, what do they do about it?

And there's not much being done right now, period.

You know, in our book, we really highlight

Tom Marino, who's not there anymore, but we highlight Tom Marino and Marcia Blackburn, who is there.

They were the sponsors of that bill that undercut the DEA.

And it's so ironic, Kara and Kathy, because their Pennsylvania and Tennessee were two really hard-hit places that they were paid a lot of money by the drug industry to support that legislation.

This comes as no shock to either of us, I think.

In any case, the book is American Cartel Inside the Battle to Bring Down the Opioid Industry.

Sari, thank you so much.

Thank you for having me on.

Okay, Kathy, that was slightly depressing, but thank you for your personal story.

I know we talked about it in our long interview, but what a, a

this system is gamed against people, especially when they're troubled or injured or things like that.

So it's pretty sad.

I know.

It's so cruel, too.

Yeah, it really is.

I mean, it's supposed to be the opposite.

Exactly.

It's supposed to make you feel better.

Anyway, we'll be back soon for predictions.

And Kathy, I hope you have a good one.

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Okay, Kathy, let's hear some predictions from you.

I would like to hear a good prediction.

All right.

I'm not the first one, but I think Trump will run again, and I think he'll pick Christy Noam.

I think that'll be his running mate because he knows she won't share the spotlight.

She'll be a good Gilead wife, and she's just pretty much as crazy as he is.

So I think that will look like a good ticket for them.

And I'm actually looking forward to seeing the other Republicans emerge because I don't see how they think anything is going to be different this time.

He's just going to tear them apart one after another.

And he's not going to run on a post this time.

So that'll be interesting.

And then, all right, you do one now.

I think, as I've said many times before, I do think the Elon Twitter thing will be settled before

the hearing.

I think they'll settle it and everybody will move on.

What do you think the outcome will be?

Elon will have to pay.

Elon will have to pay.

I know he's counter-sued.

He had a certain amount of time.

How much?

I don't know.

He countersued, which is the thing you do, right?

I mean, you've been involved in all kinds of lawsuits, as I know you've talked about.

But

I think he will settle for several billion dollars and maybe selling all the stock over time, over a time period, and not buying any more stock.

And so he stays away from from it.

I think, and then they'll be a couple billion dollars, five, seven billion dollars, something like that, somewhere in that range.

So I think it's not going to get to the hearing, even though he countersued this week.

So I think that's still, that is what's going to happen.

That makes the most sense in the end.

And again, as you know, when you're in these things, there is a settlement.

I would have to say it would not be a wise choice for him to go on trial.

Yes, not in the chancery.

We should go down there.

We should go to the trial together.

That would be very funny.

I'm in.

You like watching trials, don't you?

I'm a big trial watcher.

I love it.

You do.

Yeah, you do.

I watch a bunch of the J-Six trials.

Like, there's actually one I got to check on today, a guy named Guy Reffitt.

He's one of the higher seditious conspiracy cases.

And some of these guys, they want a bench trial because there's a couple of judges like Judge McFadden that are very Trump appointees.

And then when they go to a jury trial, they all lose in like three days.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So there's a lot of like, it's definitely fascinating to watch all the moving parts.

Let me ask you one last question.

What do you think is funny right now?

Because not a lot is.

What do you think is actually funny?

Where are we going to find comedy again?

Yeah, it's a really challenging time.

I really love that Bo Burnham special inside.

And I love when he's saying that one song about like comedy is going to save the world because people keep saying that, but then they don't really want to laugh the way they used to.

And I do think that what's funny now is I think it's important that we acknowledge the depth and the craziness of what's happening around around us.

Because as much as a lot of things aren't just tragic, frankly,

there is some comedy in the fact that we now have commonality with people that we thought we might not, you know, like Liz Chain.

Yeah.

So I think I lost a lot of audience members that were Trump people, but not that those will come back, but I think there's different ways to reach out and a lot of other people that are looking around at the world going, is it me or is it way hotter and people are crazier?

That is pretty much something we can all agree on.

People that think climate change is fake probably wouldn't come to my shows, but I don't know.

Probably not.

They wouldn't come before, though, Kathy.

That's true.

But I can't, I think they'll just know when it's time to go back out there.

I really do.

I'm just going to trust my instinct.

Okay.

All right.

We can't wait to see you on because you were wonderful on stage.

You're a tremendous

performer.

My favorite.

And I miss you.

I saw you once before we met in San Francisco at a crowd of gays in San Francisco at a huge venue, and it was crazy.

And you were so on point.

It was fantastic.

I missed it.

I want to get out there again.

I love it.

We want you to get out there again.

Anyway, we also want to hear from you, our listeners.

Send us your questions about business tech or whatever's on your mind.

Go to nymag.com slash pivot to submit a question for the show or call 855-51-PIT.

Kathy, that's the show.

And thank you so much for coming on.

So we'll be back on Friday for more.

I'm going to read us out.

Today's show was produced by Lara Naiman, Evan Engel, and Taylor Griffin.

Ernie Enderdott engineered this episode.

Make sure you subscribe to the show wherever you listen to podcasts.

Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media.

We'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business.

And Kathy, thank you again.

Thank you, my dear.