Bonus Episode: Ari Emanuel at Code 2021

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Hi, everyone.

This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network.

I'm Kara Swisher.

Today, we've got a bonus episode.

It's my interview with Ari Emanuel, the CEO of Endeavour from this year's Code Conference.

I love spinning.

Oh, do you like it?

Oh, I do.

I know, it's nice.

Yeah.

You've never been in the middle of it.

Oh, it's just my bedroom.

So, Ari just told me he loves spinning.

I want this in my bedroom.

I want this.

So, the reason he's not here, he wasn't here yesterday, is because he bought something for $1.2 billion.

Yeah.

So, why don't you talk about that first, open bet?

Okay.

What's the thinking behind it?

Well,

we're in the sports business.

We are in the gaming business, in the data and the video feeds,

to the 470 bookies around the globe.

And

it was inside one of our verticals, which is events experiences.

And we really weren't getting credit.

We represent 150 sports.

We own some sports that have gaming around them.

It's an area that is growing significantly around the globe.

And we have big competitors in in that space.

We've always said in our strategy in MA that we would build moats around our business.

This became available because of when they bought scientific games off of Mr.

Perlman.

They had to reduce some of the debt.

And it just filled all the verticals that we needed, having a complete stack in this space, whether that be players, whether that be all the different things that you need in that when you go out to the bookies around the globe.

And so it was a perfect fit with us.

It It puts us at the head of the line in that space.

The businesses in 2025, I think they estimate the gaming business on a global basis to be $77 billion.

The United States will be a 25% kegger of that.

The Globe is about 13.

And we then took that out of events and experiences.

We made a new vertical because the other thing we said to the street is that we're going to give clarity and more insight into our different businesses.

And this does that.

Okay, that begs the question of what you didn't buy, because another deal went down this week.

Right.

Two agencies, CAA and IMG, merged.

Right.

Or bought.

Why didn't you buy them?

One of them.

There was a rumor.

Did you look at them?

Well, I would say the following.

Okay.

In 2008, I didn't spend any money on merging with William Morris.

I'm not sure what CAA paid for ICM.

And if you really,

first of all, it kind of they compete with William Morris Endeavor.

ICM was, it was really probably two and a half agencies of size, CAA, us, and UTA kind of half.

ICM has not been what it used to be back 15 years ago.

When Sue Hail Rizvi bought it, we were looking at it when we were looking at William Morris.

He took all the value out when he took all the packaging economics out of the business.

At the time, actually,

CAA said, you know, we're going to grow organically.

I appreciate them validating my strategy in 08.

And past 08

between Mike Berkowitz,

James Dixon, the Harry Walker agency, Artist Voice Out of Australia, and in the last six months, we've done about, we've brought over about 20 agents.

We have continued to grow our representation business.

to stay number one because

our thesis was distribution was changing and expanding and you needed to be in more verticals to also help your clients grow their businesses.

And that's what we've done.

They're just coming at it 13 years late.

Okay, but what did they buy?

And did you look at it?

No.

I think what they bought was five, and maybe more, I just know the five incredible TV writers.

They bought an operating pretty good music business, kind of not high-profile names, but they bought a very good book business.

And they bought a soccer representation business out of Europe Mazzletov okay but one of the things they said was essentially talent first talent first talent first and I think one of the questions many people asked me to ask you was right what does professional bull riding have to do with Brad Pitt well let me just say the following I would say the reverse I have been talent first since 08 and growing different businesses for talent to expand in.

So if Mark Wahlberg or Dwayne Johnson wants to do speaking, wants to do a licensing business, if Michael B.

Jordan wants to start an

advertising agency, which he did, and we did with him, with our company 160 over 90, we have grown our clients' businesses throughout our platform and made sure that they get opportunities across it.

So if Dwayne Johnson wants to do a live event, that's what we do.

If he wants to do TV shows,

we gave him help when he wanted to buy XFL.

That's how we grow our business.

And we grow that because we have enough tentacles.

tentacles.

What you're asking a question is what are some of the other owned assets that we have do?

Well when you're doing business with CBS, with something that you own, and then you go into a negotiation with a client, that you have so much business with that company, it gives you leverage.

As opposed to

not having leverage and therefore suing, you negotiate deals and you make your clients a lot of money.

I guess there's two different approaches.

Why clients hire agents agents is to make deals and make them a lot of money and create opportunity for them.

And certain people decide that they just want to sue people and that's how they do it.

I'm not sure that's the job they were hired for, but it is what it is.

So when you think about the agency business and how it's changed,

would you look at something like UTA?

No.

Why?

We don't need it.

We don't need it.

We don't need it just to grow that one.

No.

And I'll tell you the other thing.

I think back in 08, when we were starting looking at the world differently, seeing where the world was going, starting with expanding our business with William Morris and strengthening our platform, and then how we wanted to, and then adding Silver Lake and then going after things, and understanding that you want to be not only in the representation business, but the ownership business.

We have continued, as I said, growing the representation business in a significant way.

It's not like we stood still.

We don't stand still, as indicated by yesterday.

So I would say to you, we're the largest agency.

We feel very good about what we do for a living in that business.

I think we're the best representatives in the business.

And we're growing businesses where other parts of the entertainment ecosystem is growing, as you saw yesterday.

But your business is UFC now.

It's not representation.

I would say to you, is our representation business for the last 10 or 11 years,

take 2020 out, has grown double digits every year for 10 years.

It is a very significant part of our business and it is the core feeder for how our business grows and we pay a great deal of attention to it.

Also the business is, which gives us leverage at Disney and other places, the UFC, at CBS, it's bull writing.

OnLocation is an experience business gives us you know, across the globe where we see the experience accounting going.

And now gaming, which is a global business, as I said, the economics.

So we're in where the landscape of entertainment is.

And the original premise was

content and gaming's content,

movies and television, and people that create content on TikTok.

We're in every aspect of the entertainment ecosystem.

So what's the modern age look like then in terms of that?

Well, one of our businesses being an agent, I mean, our agents

realize

that you have to understand multiple ends of where the environment of entertainment is going.

So because clients demand in the representation of actors, writers, directors, DPs,

they demand more services.

And so if

we're in the photography business, we're in the modeling business, we're in the makeup, they also want licensing.

for their products.

They want to own

brands, not only do endorsements.

Our agents understand now the whole landscape of what a client wants, and we have provided services throughout our business for that.

That kind of begs the question of what do they need you for?

Because without us, without us.

I'm going to point to some others, like

Hell of Sunshine or LeBron James is doing.

What we represent LeBron James.

Right.

Right.

In certain areas.

In certain areas.

But the thing that everyone's looking at and thinking about buying is the thing he's doing with Maverick Carter.

How do you can't, don't you see?

Well, I would say to you, not that we are in that deal, but Maverick Carter has called, especially when he's trying to raise money, because we've raised a lot of money, and help trying to help him with certain people that he's looking at his business because we have relationships with them.

And we have helped because we're good partners throughout that process.

So, do you see a trend of these things happening, these individual branded, multi-revenue channel companies owned by

celebrities themselves?

Well, whichever kind of celebrities.

I would say the following.

About

two and a half years ago, we saw celebrities getting involved with brands, as we can all see, even though the advertising dollars are going up on linear channels, because where are they going to put their money that much?

That they were...

Brands were coming to celebrities to not only do endorsements, but also

kind of get equity in the brands and use their social channels.

And we started a business called Talent Ventures.

I remember.

And at the time we did about four to six deals.

This was about three years ago.

I think it's now up to 45 deals from Naomi Osaka doing sunscreen and to Ryan Reynolds doing aviation gin, Mark Wahlberg doing a tequila.

At the beginning it was a lot of liquor.

It's now moved from all the way into fintech to skincare.

I mean it's all over the place, one of our biggest growing areas.

And one of the reasons we get this is because how many places we're in, we understand all in our marketing business, we bring all the influence of our marketing business and all of our different relationships to bear to make sure our clients get full value and full exposure.

Do you worry about a day where they don't need you?

No.

Why?

Because I think we actually add value

to their dreams and desires, whether Whether that be creating a production company, whether that be producing, whether that be representing or endorsements, whether they're doing speaking, in a whole host of areas, we have expertise and we're number one in those areas.

We'll be back with more from Ari Emanuel after the break.

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Welcome back to this bonus episode of Pivot.

Here's more of my conversation with Endeavor CEO Ari Emanuel at this year's Code Conference.

All right, let's talk about your IPO.

Yes.

First failed attempt.

Yes.

That's the gray hair on this side.

Okay.

Talk about it.

You know, I don't think about things as success or failure.

I think about things as learning experiences.

Okay.

Because I've never been in a situation where something quote unquote failed and I didn't gain something for it that the next time around I did better.

Not always, but I keep on, I'm still curious, I keep on pushing forward.

And so we got a lot of information.

One is we needed all of the USC.

Two is we needed more clarity in our verticals.

There was a lot of things that we didn't

have and do right.

So it took

it took about well yeah, we pulled it at the last minute because I think we got caught in the in the wake of WeWorks and some others.

And I think the economy turned at the last minute.

But what then we did is we worked really hard for eight months, negotiated the rest of the UFC into the company and clarified our verticals, listening to what the street told us, worked very hard with the guys from Morgan Stanley that were incredible, Brian Stern and team.

And I think it was successful, it has been successful.

And as this last transaction, we're continuing to clarify what we do for a living to give people true insight into all the things we touch in the entertainment business.

Another question.

A lot of your employees were upset when you took a massive stock trove.

Can you talk about that?

$160 million you and your partners pulled out.

I get that people pulled money out.

Well, I mean, I think

with the delay, and then you went back.

Right.

Well, here's what I would say.

You know, everybody has, throughout the time, we have set up tranches for people to take money out.

It was, I had not taken money out the company for 26 years.

I went through a personal situation that I needed the money.

So I didn't want to, but I also permitted other people to take money out that they got.

And last time I checked, not to, I did fund the company.

I did.

invest in the business and didn't take a salary when the company,

as people who have started companies, you know, went went through very tough times.

I financed the company.

I've paid people very well.

It is what it is.

It is what it is.

Yep.

Would you have done anything different in the IPO?

And the current IPO?

Yeah.

I thought it went off pretty well.

All right.

So when we're talking about you walking.

You made me feel guilty that it didn't go off well.

Well, too bad.

Okay.

That's all right.

You weren't WeWork, at least, right?

True.

Yeah, and now you can make a movie about them.

So plans for future acquisitions?

I know you just made this big bet.

What areas are you super interested in?

Well, we think of M ⁇ A in two ways, as I said, and I've said several times now.

One of the ways is, like when we went public, we bought in IMG Arena, which is our other gaming asset.

We bought Flight Scope, which is a video capturing business.

And in our Academy business in Florida, we bought NSCA, which is kind of like what I would say is the LinkedIn of high school sports.

We always look at how we can create bigger moats around our existing businesses.

And then the second tranche is: are there on locations, UFC, things that

will kind of completely transform the company and where we see the world going?

So on both of them, you know me, I'm pretty curious.

On both of them, we are looking at the world and seeing things that maybe other people don't see.

And we will use stock and cash to do that.

What about growing things organically?

Well, we have, I said to you, we did talent ventures.

We grew

Endeavor content.

We've done a lot of things organically, and they've been very successful.

And so

we do all three.

So,

yeah.

So, of all your businesses right now, which one is most important?

I love all my children.

And I understand that.

I have four.

Which one is your richest child who gives you the most back?

I don't look at it that way.

I mean, I truly, I don't actually.

I mean, I think

the company is in incredible shape.

As I've said in our last earnings call, we raised our guidance and the company is doing incredibly well.

You see, we all see, you know, I said to somebody I was having a conversation up in Silicon Valley, what's the TAM on content?

Might be infinite, right?

I just went over what the TAM is on gaming.

I think we have one of the only global sports in the UFC.

We represent 150 sports and the sports rights marketplace.

He's going through the roof on a global basis.

I love all my children.

All right.

So none of them is particular.

Let's talk about UFC then.

Okay.

Very badly hit by the pandemic.

Are you talking about the UFC?

UFC, excuse me.

I only lost

one fight night.

Okay, all right.

Okay, so it wasn't badly hit.

All right.

So you won.

That was written correct.

All right.

So, but you created Fight Island.

Yes.

You used the opportunity to create a new business.

Well, no, I mean, it's the UFC.

I mean,

we did what what we did.

You know Dana is one of the incredible partners.

He is a driven driven man.

He said to me we have to figure out how to explain who that is for me.

Dana White runs the UFC

and he said we have to get to an island.

We have to create a place so I can bring the European fighters in.

One of our investors is Mubadla of Abu Dhabi.

They have Yaz Island.

We had a conversation.

We created that spot.

We've done, we'll do, in October, we'll do our third fight there.

And then, actually interesting, right before the pandemic, we bought the building next to our facility in Las Vegas.

And we had already had built out, because if we didn't do that, we would have never been able to put on fights, we built out a whole facility there, and we owned the whole area.

And that permitted us to kind of have two locations to do fights.

And we then just created a, I don't know, 40-page document.

And we were the first sport up with bull riding that enabled the sports to go on and a whole protocol, which took a long time and a lot of work, to how to get a sport back up and running with all the protections that you need.

And we did it, I think

both teams, the PBR team and the UFC team did an incredible job.

And it's an indication that we only lost.

one fight night.

One fight night.

During this whole time.

At the same time, your UFC president, who just discussed, said the entire world had, quote, turned into pussies overnight, uh which more sounds like you honestly um you know that is so not nice that i understand it but you have to live with your

reputation okay thanks um i live with mine so you're gonna need to live with yours so when he said that what did you think about that i let dana be dana i don't always agree with him okay so um dana is a guy that makes sure that he delivers on the promise we made to ESPN and he drove the whole organization to get up on its feet and deliver those fights.

And I think at the time it was actually important because I think the globe wanted a sport back and he made sure that he was going to deliver it.

And we all got up and kind of followed his lead.

So how has the pandemic affected?

I got, you know, one of the things we're not going to be canceling people because of what they say during a period of time.

And that was a very tough period of time.

first months in the century period of time.

Okay.

All right.

Still was a really stupid thing to say.

How has the pandemic affected business in general?

When you think about it, not just that business, but the movie business.

What's been the washout of it now as it moves to solutions?

Well, I think, you know, we've had a drive by Disney, now Warner's with Discovery, Peacock launching their,

and Comcast launching there, Paramount launching Paramount Plus and Pluto.

You saw the expansion with Netflix and everything else.

I mean, you know, again, there's been a huge amount of content content because you're all sitting at home.

If you're specifically, which I don't want to interpret it, but I'll ask, if you're specifically talking about the movie business,

overall entertainment, movie intelligence.

Okay, so if we'll just take the movie business,

I don't, you know, people are saying theater business is dead.

That's me.

Okay, you're wrong.

Okay.

Okay.

So here's my

dead.

It's going to be an adorable little thing.

No, here's, so the movie business pre-pandemic was a nine-plus billion dollar business.

Will it be nine-plus billion?

I'm not here in the predicting business.

I listened to your Jeffrey Kassenberg business.

There's Sony, Paramount, Warner Brothers, Comcast, and Disney.

I don't believe they're giving up $9 billion.

And I think there's two things we have to realize.

Do you cook at home?

Yes.

And you go out for dinner?

Sure.

Okay.

So that will be the movie business.

And so the other thing that I think is true about the movie business, and we just saw it in the Less Marvel movie that just came out, record numbers.

Record.

For that movie.

Hold on, hold on.

Record numbers.

Okay.

The minute you and I are comfortable sharing an armrest, the movie business is back in full form.

People want more.

If on location is an indication of people wanting to hang out with other people experiences, the movie business, based on that movie, and those are the movies that are coming out, will be back in full life.

Will be some movies that are right for direct to consumer?

Yeah.

Will there some movies be right day and date?

Yeah.

even Netflix, and I'm in the middle of it with Adam McKay's movie and Leonardo DiCaprio, don't look up.

There's gonna be, I think it's 12 days, I'm not sure exactly, 170 theaters.

They're going to the theater business.

So does the window change from 45 to 25, 17?

I'm not sure.

I'm not in the, I'm not going to be in the prediction.

But the movie business is not going away.

You and I are going to share an armchair.

Never,

never,

never.

Okay?

So

I'll share that with you anytime.

All right.

But that's not going away.

On the television side, the linear business, cable and ABC and CBS, I think it's a $150 million billion dollar ecosystem between subs and advertising.

They have to have that business.

I think people still get to the internet through AOL.

They still use their Gmail accounts.

Just look, you know, let's not be flyover people here.

So the linear business will still exist

and the S-VOD business will exist.

Will it be the same that it is?

No.

But if you remember, there was a show that came out, the first show on Netflix came out while Game of Thrones came out.

Same time, HBO had Every Week and

Netflix

right

you could have all 13 at once.

Both did very, very well.

Well, one might argue that the pandemic has been the biggest experiment for the internet companies in moving people and accelerating trends that were happening.

Restaurants are in trouble.

Commerce is in trouble.

You're not going to go to a restaurant again?

I am, but I have to say, movie theaters, not so much.

My son, absolutely.

We're going to all come back here in about three, two years, a year and a half.

And she'll have gone to three movies in a movie theater.

Three, probably.

I wrote a call today about in the time.

I'm going to go to the the Bond movie.

Okay.

The 10 other movies.

And you only went to three when there wasn't COVID.

No, not so.

Stop.

No,

not so.

You're lying.

Okay.

So

I think it's been a terrible consumer experience.

They've been abusing.

Oh, I'm not saying that it hasn't been, but I don't believe it is going away.

That was the question.

All right.

You want to not talk about moving to the experience as opposed to whether it's going to exist?

Okay.

That's a different conversation.

It's a little like, say, Broadway theater.

It's an important thing, but not the only thing that people have gotten used to streaming.

Has Broadway gone away?

No.

Okay, is it going away?

It's smaller.

It's smaller.

I said, is it a $9 billion business?

No, it's probably a little bit less.

Okay.

All right.

Let's talk about streaming, though.

All these companies are now calling themselves streaming companies.

Wall Street's rewarding them for this.

You yourself said we're going to make a lot of money in streaming.

Well, I think the TA on content is infinite.

All right.

What happens to the ecosystem if all the economics change?

And what are the economics that you're most interested in?

Here's the only thing I care about.

Do my clients get to do what they want to do and get paid properly for it?

And let me just tell you something.

They are like crazy numbers right now.

As I said to you, the representation business right now is growing at double digits over the last 10 years.

And just remember the following.

We started out with radio, you had the movie business, you had television, you had DVDs, you had cable.

Technology has always come into the business and talent has always been paid and been paid very well.

And now you have six behemoths, right, with some smaller players like Roku and Paramount.

And they all need, which they've all said,

Ted talked about the South Korean, I have a different South Korean show that I like called My Buster, which is incredible.

They all need more content and there's a voracious appetite for more content.

So from where I sit and where my sit in the ecosystem, my clients are doing really, really well and will continue to do really, really well.

Because when I started this business 26 years ago, there was four networks going to six, three or four cable channels, and a certain amount of people creating content.

That distribution model has quadrupled and there's the same amount of people making content.

The asset is the people that are making content.

And they are going to get paid and they're getting paid very, very well.

And they're going to continue to get paid very, very well.

With all these guys,

trillion.

But how does the economics change?

It's not back end, it's not no, no.

So what you're having started with Netflix, you know, probably if you had a slate of movies at Warner Brothers, 10% of them would hit a back end on the movie side.

Right.

It was small now.

Right.

Now they're paying each one of those 12 movies as if they've all hit back ends.

And we saw it with Warner's as Jason was here.

He paid out $200 million in back ends, right?

Not every movie would have made that.

So instead of making 10%, the clients, all the clients, it's at at 100 and that's through netflix is doing that apple's doing that amazon's doing that disney's doing that warners is doing that and peacock will do that so it's a very it it it's great times so it's good for our yeah yeah so when i know it's good for my clients

we'll be back in a moment stay tuned

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Welcome back.

Now more of my conversation with Ari Emmanuel.

When you imagine consumers and what they want from entertainment, what do you think, when you look at social media or TikTok, how do you look at those tech companies now and their role?

Because this is a tech, we focus a lot on tech.

When you look at the big tech companies, Apple, I suppose Netflix is a tech company, Amazon, how do you look at them?

And how does Hollywood look at them?

Well, they all have, I think Jeffrey said this appropriately when you was, you know, when you did your podcast.

They all have different reasons.

Amazon's trying to sell stuff with Prime.

Apple's trying to sell services on the phone.

Sony's a pure play.

Netflix is a pure play, right?

Warner.

Warner's now got multiple, but I think has a double-edged sword on the movie side.

Also, Warner Brothers, if you look at Ted's Lasso, is one of the biggest suppliers to the other services.

And Disney has picked their three or four main,

you know, Pixar, et cetera, Marvel, Star Wars, and now any assets that come out of Fox, they've all picked their different

how they're going to play this business.

So

you have to play them all differently.

Do you imagine the tech companies?

I was talking to a pretty major studio executive the other day.

We had dinner, and he thought

for dinner.

And it was it at a restaurant?

It was outside.

Oh, was it a restaurant?

Yes, but I guess you'll go to the movie business, too.

Okay.

I like restaurants better than movies.

Okay.

And you've lost my train of thought.

Good.

And I've got.

What did he say?

What did the tech person say?

No, that's a tech person, studio person.

Uh-huh.

He says, I hope to hell Google buys me someday.

Do you see that happening?

I don't know if the government would let that happen.

I'm not sure that's going to happen.

They're never going to let that happen.

He was hoping.

Well, he should stop drinking.

Okay.

All right.

Last question.

I was joking with you about, well, I can either ask you the Trump question, you represented him, or I can talk to you about the changing mores of Hollywood.

You're famous, I think, largely because of that show, having a temper, but you have a temper.

I just saw something in page six again that you were yelling at someone in a restaurant.

I could care less that you were yelling at people.

I didn't actually, but that's okay.

Okay, I don't care.

I don't care if you did.

Okay.

But I didn't.

Okay.

Okay.

Have you had to change the way you behave?

I think I've matured, but I am still very curious, very aggressive.

As this last deal, I mean, it took, we did this deal and

we weren't invited in.

We pushed our way in.

We closed this deal in a very short order and took it away from a lot of big players.

I still give a shit and I love what I do.

So

that's how I operate my life.

And the minute I don't, I'm not doing it anymore.

What would you do?

You know, as Jimmy Iveen said to me once, who

sold me, it would probably take, you know, when you have a big tanker that's bringing over over shipments of goods, it takes about three miles to stop.

I'm not sure what I would do, but I probably want to help.

One of the things that's in my head that I want to do eventually is I want to help because I'm dyslexic.

My three boys are dyslexic.

And I don't think they've gotten the privilege of their father and my economics.

There's a lot of kids in the inner city that don't have that privilege.

And maybe creating a school for that for kids would be something I have started talking about with the people out of Yale that helped me think through my kids' situation.

So that's one of the things I've been thinking about.

Okay, that's older, wealthier Ari Emmanuel.

What about young mailroom?

You and I both started in the mailroom.

Right.

As you know, you have a more famous mailroom.

Right.

I just have the Washington Post mailroom.

What would the young Ari Emmanuel do?

What would he do?

I would do what I'm doing now.

Right now.

Yeah.

Agent.

Yeah.

Well, I'm not an agent, but I would, that's part of my life, actually.

I do that too, but I'm not only an agent, but I would be trying to build and run this company so what would you call yourself now not an agent what

i don't know i don't call my brothers or ask them what they would call me or you know so um

i'm an executive also an agent what would you call me

don't don't answer that don't answer it

all right i have one last question we talked when we first met i told you hollywood wasn't entrepreneurial enough do you think it's gotten the message well when you say that and you have now

facing tech companies and their power.

Oh, you're just talking about facing tech.

I would say that the entertainment business is entrepreneurial because when somebody starts a new show or a new movie, they're an entrepreneur.

Because that takes guts to start something new.

And so you now have over 900 shows and movies.

And so as it relates to your definition, which is tech, have they...

I don't have an answer for that.

Sorry.

That's okay.

I'd say you're an entrepreneur.

Anyway, I thought I was going to say asshole.

You could say that too.

I was thinking it as fine.

Anyone, everyone, are you manufacturing?

Thank you very much.

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This month on Explain It to Me, we're talking about all things wellness.

We spend nearly $2 trillion on things that are supposed to make us well.

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