LinkedIn is Leaving China, TikTok is Bad for Teens, Too, and Friend of Pivot Christopher Mims

Support for the show comes from Saks Fifth Avenue.

Sacks Fifth Avenue makes it easy to shop for your personal style.

Follow us here, and you can invest in some new arrivals that you'll want to wear again and again, like a relaxed product blazer and Gucci loafers, which can take you from work to the weekend.

Shopping from Saks feels totally customized, from the in-store stylist to a visit to Saks.com, where they can show you things that fit your style and taste.

They'll even let you know when arrivals from your favorite designers are in, or when that Brunello Cachinelli sweater you've been eyeing is back in stock.

So, if you're like me and you need shopping to be personalized and easy, head to Saks Fifth Avenue for the Best Fall Arrivals and Style inspiration.

If you're waiting for your AI to turn into ROI

and wondering how long you have to wait,

maybe you need to do more than wait.

Any business can use AI.

IBM helps you use AI to change how you do business.

Let's create small to business, IBM.

Hi, everyone.

This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network.

I'm Kara Swisher.

And I'm Scott Galloway.

So, Scott, tell people what you had done today, what the procedure you had done today, and we should urge everyone to do them.

Yeah, I'm at that age where like every time I go into the dermatologist, they're like, yeah, we should probably take that off and biopsy it.

That's funny.

I just went and I'm literally five pounds lighter.

I left a lot of my person back at the dermatologist this morning.

Do you feel good?

You feel safe?

We want you around for a long time, Scott.

I appreciate that.

Yeah,

look, the key to any of this, and I actually thought about going, I haven't got a colonoscopy in six years.

And when Katie Kirk was on your show, I think a lot of things would first and foremost, I think, about having a probe go up my ass.

But anyways,

I'm going to go to colonoscopy.

Well, they put you out.

They use that awesome

proxy on.

Propofol.

They do.

Oh, that's just a good one.

I had it done.

It's really great, actually.

That is a great drink.

You drink stuff before.

This may feel like the geriatric.

Oh, God, let me tell you.

You drink stuff before and it cleans you out.

Like you can't, like things that I ate.

Yeah.

It's the understatement of the century.

What glue?

Cleans you out.

Glue from like...

kindergarten was in there.

Paste that I ate was in there and it came out.

You feel so clean and fresh.

Weirdly, it's a good thing to do.

Good.

I'm glad.

When are you going?

Did you?

I'll give you the other version of that.

Okay.

I drank the same liquid liquid and I felt as if I had a dam release out of my innards.

I thought I was shitting out a lung.

I mean, I could not believe how much it takes out of you.

Anyway, sorry to go there.

But anyways, went to the dermatologist.

I feel much better.

Good.

You should.

Everybody, we suggest you do any and all things that get ward off all kinds of cancers because a lot of preventative care is better.

So what should we talk about?

There's so much going on.

We could talk about succession.

That was good last night.

I think everyone was all excited.

How much do we love success?

It was really good.

Do you love it as much as I do?

Yeah, I do.

I'm doing a podcast about it.

Yes.

I'm a super fan.

I'm a crazy super fan.

Yeah, it was good.

It was really good.

And there's more to come.

I've seen some episodes.

So it's one of those things where it's like

I'm disgusted by everybody on the show and yet would like to have sex with all of them.

Yes, they're handsome people.

It straddles that line.

Also, in terms of super fan,

I'm seriously contemplating getting a tattoo that says Cousin Greg.

Oh, right.

I'm kind of upset.

I just got a press release about some vibrator that goes on every time he says something.

Oh, yeah, every time it goes and it comes in the room.

I wrote about that too.

Yeah, I think I'm not going to talk about that.

Yeah, I think the writing is beautiful.

I'm interviewing one of the writers.

I did, and it's for the third episode, I think.

And it's quite, she's quite, she's a playwright.

She's a really, they're all such good writers.

It's crazy good.

You're right.

They're terrible people you care about.

Does that make sense?

That makes sense.

They've done a nice job with that.

And

it's close enough to bidness that it's believable in many ways, especially all the antics that happen behind the scenes.

But speaking of antics, Netflix employees will stage a virtual walkout on Wednesday to protest statements by Ted Sorrandos regarding Dave Chappelle's new special.

It also announced its quarterly earnings today.

Squid games may be worth $900 million.

I mean, this was a good choice.

They're quite good on certain, you know, it's interesting because some of the stuff that got released with Dave Chappelle shows that what they pay him, they don't get back.

Like they get back less than they pay him.

And then certain things, like there was a show by another guy, and I can't remember, I'm blanking on his name, but he cost this and made a ton of money.

Obviously, Squid Games is a big deal.

Squid game, excuse me, not Squid Games, Squid Game, is

it'll be games.

There's gonna be sequels.

There's gonna be sequels and they're doing real ones.

But it's interesting when you think nothing will happen about this.

It'll just pass.

They like their radical transparency at Netflix.

Everyone says they're peace and then moves on.

Yeah.

Listening transparently.

Well, the Chappelle thing, the Chappelle thing is really, I mean, it's gotten bigger and bigger.

And it's, I think it's really interesting.

And there's, it's, I think it's promoting, you know, progress is a function of conflict and debate.

And I think we're having a lot of good

dialogue here.

Yeah.

I think it's important.

You know, comedy is supposed to provoke.

And I've been thinking a lot about this lately.

The wonderful thing about comedy is that it disarms you.

And you don't immediately go to your corner.

And you're more open to evolving around thought or at least thinking through issues as opposed to going, okay, this person said this, so I'm just immediately, or was on this network, I'm immediately against it.

And good comedy is supposed to provoke.

They have to straddle a line between provoking and just saying something dumb and offensive that's wrong, especially in this era.

And he has the power to do it.

The thing I...

I don't like about it, or the thing I was thinking about is that everyone's going after, or a lot of people are going after Netflix.

A lot of people are going after Chappelle.

A lot of people are going after the trans people who complain, just so you know.

I wrote a column about it and I got plenty of that.

But go ahead.

Well, that's right.

That's right.

And my feeling is this dialogue is really important and productive.

I mean, I'll give you an example.

George DeKay came out with a tweet and he said, replace every time he referenced the trans community

with the Jewish community or Asians.

Well, he did a few jokes that were.

And

I thought, this is really interesting.

He's right.

The reaction would have been swifter and harsher.

But what I don't, what I think is unfortunate about our present state is that rather than having a dialogue, 80% of our energy goes to, I think I disagree.

I want to move to destruction.

Yeah, I would agree.

I have to say the reaction that I got to, I wrote a column about it in the Times.

And

it was, it was interesting.

Everyone's like, you don't want him to talk.

I'm like, I said he was gifted.

And I literally was so nuanced.

I was, I gave what we talked about the day before.

I was like, I said, I like him.

I said, I think he's talented.

He's usually funny.

This wasn't funny.

Like, that's all.

And then someone was like, you like Hannah Gasby and she didn't do as well.

I'm like, and I like zucchini and maybe you don't.

Like, I don't, I think he went to the stage.

Did you see Hannah's statement?

Yes, I did.

Indeed, I did.

It really shocked me.

It's interesting.

The critics love Hannah.

The audience doesn't as much.

And the critics don't like, the critics don't like.

That's not true.

They kiss.

Oh, my God.

Dave Chappelle gets like kiss, kiss, kiss.

Looked up and down as you do.

Look up and down from the critics.

You just don't have to like this set.

That is the inability for you to say, I don't like this.

I think he went, he like he went on too long.

Went on too long is what I would say.

Went on too long.

That's what I would say.

Not that he shouldn't have talked about it.

Anyway, whatever.

But it's bringing up an important dialogue.

And it's sort of,

what I take from it is, okay, so there are people out there who feel like the transgender community's restrictions around nomenclature and how and when words are used, they feel it's too tight and we can't have an open conversation on the other side.

It just feels as if people should demonstrate a little bit more grace and go, this community has just taken so many.

That's exactly what we're doing.

Maybe we would want to give them, let's come to an agreement where they're going to say, all right, if we want to have an open dialogue around giving schools that let kids identify with a different gender and start taking hormones without their parents' permission, that's a worthwhile conversation.

And we shouldn't be labeled as turf.

And at the same time, to not acknowledge that this community

has just

endured such incredible hostility.

It feels there's got to be a meanings of the mind where we're a little bit more generous with it.

It's very hard.

You know, it's the same thing on Pete Budig and the parental leave.

All the

straight-up homophobia.

I'm a father of four.

I'm like, you've never touched a diaper, sir.

Like, I'm a mother of four.

They're not going after the husbands of straight couples.

And they make comments like he's learning how to breastfeed.

That's just pure.

That is just such a whistle call for homophobia.

I know.

It really is.

It's like pro-wrestling with these people.

You know what scares me about all of this, though?

I apologize.

I worry that we're going to lose the house because of this.

I think Bernie Sanders summarized it perfectly, and he said, people are sick of talking about bathrooms.

I think that the democratic platform should be, we're for civil rights, full stop.

But I think if they take the bait and start talking about trans rights and make it a big part of their platform, I think a lot of people are going to go to these people.

Tomorrow is the right time.

Honestly,

it reminds me when gay marriage was going on.

Was this going to lose us this?

Too bad.

And then we lose.

Then we lose.

Then we can make better arguments.

But in any case, we have to move on.

But this is for some little red meat for you.

Harvard announced that its endowment grew to $53.2 billion.

Endowment produced fewer returns than most major universities.

Yale, for example, had returns of 40% compared to Harvard's 33.6%.

That's a lot of moolah.

So what do you think of that?

Well, look, the Ivy League has decided that they're a Birkenbag and they're not public servants.

And they can grow their endowment.

I mean, get this.

Harvard was only up 34%.

MIT's was up 56%.

Brown was up 52%.

Probably bought tech.

And yet, their year-on-year increase in freshman seats.

How many?

1.2%.

They decided to increase because they've decided that anyone who already has a degree and the faculty there like to get around in a big circle jerk and talk about we're Birkenbags, aren't we just amazing?

And instead of taking this transformative experience called higher education and the incredible certification and opportunities that Harvard and the Ivy League does afford people, we've decided to pull up the bridge behind us.

It is just something that's $1.2 billion.

What the hell?

Why aren't they educating every giving everybody a Harvard education?

Why on earth?

And by the way, I don't believe everyone has the right to go to college.

I don't believe everyone has the right to go to Harvard.

But for God's sakes, we salute getting Google.

We grow Google 40% a year.

We grow Facebook 60% a year, but we can't grow...

I've written off the ivy leaf.

A bunch of self-aggrandizing

arrogant jerks.

I may interject.

But we can't grow.

Hold on.

We can't grow the University of North Carolina or Michigan or great public schools more than 2% a year.

I was talking to a student yesterday who's trying to get in a bunch of schools and wants to go to MIT.

So I introduced her to my ex-wife.

And one of the things she was saying was like, this is the percent, you know, this is how many get in versus how many apply.

And it was, they were all these tiny number percentages.

And she was just saying them.

And I said, is that a good thing?

And she didn't, she was like, what?

And I said, it's not a good thing.

That's a bad statistic.

And it was the first time she was like, oh, you're kind of right.

The student, because they get them on these like hamster wheels of like achievement.

And it's just this person deserved to go to all of of them.

So many good qualities.

And it just was sort of, I don't know, left a dark taste in my mouth or whatever, bad taste.

It's done two things.

It's turned spring into what used to be a joyous, but nervous moment or season for a lot of households who

were fortunate enough and blessed enough to have kids who are college capable and turned it into the season of despair.

I mean, it really is.

This is just crushing for some kids and their parents.

They get arbitrage down because of this corrupt cartel called higher education where we all raise our prices in concert with one another.

And we all arbitrage them down to a Hyundai for a Mercedes price, in effect,

a reallocation of capital for middle-class homes to the faculty and administrators and endowments of this incredibly corrupt cartel.

And it's devastating for young people.

It's just why on earth?

We think Google's great.

Okay, let's scale it 40% a year.

Who has an argument with the University of North Carolina?

Who has an argument with the life-changing better society?

Let me ask you something.

Are we better off with Facebook tripling in the next five years or are great public schools tripling their enrollment in the next five years?

Where would the world be?

Do you have you get in to go to the actual campus or you get in online?

Like you get if you're like, I don't know.

Think out of the briefings.

Hybrid teaching.

different

by universities that are failing and create more space.

Yep.

Space.

Online learning.

Scott and Kara want to go to Harvard, Harvard.

Ready.

Can you imagine that's starter?

We're ready.

Neither of us could get in, could we?

No, I want to go to a place with a good football team.

It's not Harvard.

Sports are.

We have to move on to big stories.

I allowed you to rant.

And a Greek system.

Yeah.

I was present in the interference.

I'm not going to do the president.

I'm not going to join a fraternity with you.

That is never so much fun.

I'm the person who has so much fun.

You know who I am?

I'm the person that goes, quiet down.

That was who I was in college.

Hey, kids, you're making a lot of noise.

Anyway,

first big story.

More bad news for teens on social media.

This time it's TikTok.

Doctors are reporting, this is the strangest story.

Young female patients developing ticks.

The Wall Street Journal says that TikTok may be to blame.

Videos tagged with Tourette's have over a billion views on TikTok.

Some of the most followed Tourette's influencers report getting new ticks from watching others.

I don't even understand this.

Meanwhile, The Guardian identified two dozen TikTok hashtags associated with eating disorders.

The tagged videos have billions of views.

Facebook's, of course, not out of it.

They're the original, the OG on this one.

The Times reports that Facebook targeted teenagers nearly all of its marketing budgets starting in 2018.

What a surprise.

Its goal was to get users as young as 13 into the Facebook ecosystem however they could, especially Instagram, I'm guessing.

Meanwhile, new documents in the Facebook files show that the site's AI is bad at catching hate speech and violence.

Facebook employees estimate it catches only a low single-digit percent of posts that violate its rules.

Overall, here we are again, and now we're with Tourette's ticks, which I don't, I didn't even understand this story.

Scott, please go on.

I don't know about you.

Speculative, just so you know.

This is.

Yeah, it's, I mean, that's the problem.

We really don't, and I'm going to acknowledge

a lot of the stuff I put forward about a link between Instagram and teen depression.

There hasn't been great research.

There's not conclusive research showing if, in fact, it does cause teen depression.

There's a lot of anecdotal evidence, but a lot of it is that these platforms don't want to give data to researchers.

But anyways, I saw this and it really chilled me.

I thought, first off, it seemed weird.

I mean, supposedly, a lot of kids are coming in to therapists and repeating the word beans over and over.

I mean, it's just, we are going, we are sort of in uncharted territory here around the young brain and how it evolves and what can set it off.

Amplification.

Do you remember there was a horror movie like literally 20 or 30 years ago where if kids watched this show and they were wearing a mask, like

their head turned into

the Tide Pod.

But the best thing, nobody owes Chappelle more than Facebook right now.

Because all of a sudden, the news cyclists moved away from these extreme dieting sites that Facebook was recommending to

girls struggling with eating disorders.

Now it's gone to Chappelle.

But there is, I was really, I mean, I don't know about you, I was incredibly rattled to see this.

The thing I just want to say is that I just specified it too, but I don't,

but it's being recorded, which is anecdotal, which is, I just,

what it is, is I had a really interesting interview with Maria Ressa, who just won the Nobel Prize.

And she was talking about this sort of stuff.

She's the one that was very early in 2016, 17.

She was one of the few people who were talking about this, especially because she was the subject of these attacks, especially on Facebook.

She spoke to Mark Ducker directly, who almost completely ignored her.

In any case, she was talking about it in a way, a new way.

She's like, it's behaviorable.

It's behavioral change is what's happening here on a mass scale.

Not that it hasn't happened before, but it's on a mass scale, you know, in a way with propaganda that works, that really works on shifting the human brain.

I thought that was probably correct.

Yeah,

it's fascinating.

I think

there's going to be more and more conversations around

230 and health and removing some of these limits.

I love the idea that's been put forward.

I had lunch with Jeff Buchas, and he highlighted this idea that seems so elegant to me: that you remove 230 if a platform uses its algorithm to elevate content because effectively it's become an editor at that point.

And that's when, similar to Fox or CNN, that's when they're liable, is when they choose to use their platform for profit to elevate and possibly defame

or spread content that with a little bit of fact-checking, they could find out there's no veracity to.

And I think that's an incredibly elegant solution.

I'm going to write about it this week in my new Mercenar Miles Post.

I think that 231, if you will, should be legislation that says those protections are removed the moment an algorithm identifies content and decides to elevate it because you've become a publisher.

You're not a platform at that point.

Yeah.

Well, I agree.

I think it's really interesting.

It's an interesting time.

And I think one of the things is the amplification part.

I want to say this has existed before.

I mean, we've all, you know, we've all, there have been mass crazes among teens, et cetera, et cetera, forever.

But I do think this working on the brain and the repetitive nature of it and the propaganda nature of it is something that I think researchers should really be able to have access to so they understand it and making the links or not.

I suspect it's not, it's just an amplified version of things that have happened before.

And it restresses.

If you also have an eating disorder, having this much support, and I hate to call it support, but that's what it is, makes you more, you know what I mean?

It just

solidifies things.

And of course, people can't get enough of it, is the problem.

It's addictive.

It's just addictive.

And that's, I just think all this stuff should be open for study.

And I suspect we'll find out things that are not.

Well, we're raising a generation.

It's just no accident that some of the biggest movies are now about the multiverse.

I just saw Free Guy.

Oh, was it good?

And my kids.

Well, Ryan Reynolds is just

got fantastic presence and humor, and he's handsome.

And

I could almost watch anything he does.

I think he's great.

And then Jodi Comer, who's from what arguably I think is one of the best original scripted series of the last five years, Killing Eve, she's in it and she's fantastic.

But anyway, my point is: we have a whole generation of kids that essentially, especially for the last two years, their entire socialization was done in these metaverses.

Whether it's Snap, whether it's Fortnite, whether it's you know, Assassin's Creed, this is how they're socializing.

And I noticed that with my boys, especially my youngest, once he goes beyond a certain number of hours in front of a screen,

I don't know what the right term is, he becomes an enormous asshole.

And

we're in uncharted territory in terms of, and people say, and then they'll always revert to, well, they made the same thing about rock and roll.

No, this is different.

Or TV, this is different.

There's something about the interaction here, the stimulus,

the action, reaction, response that does rewire your brain.

Yeah.

The only thing is we don't want to become like those people who are like, that Elvis with his swiveling pelvis is very disturbing.

Well, that's the argument.

That's the argument.

It did have an impact.

But there's something deeper here.

There really is something deeper.

I think there's a lot of evidence.

Yes.

Famous psychiatrists Kara Swisher and Scott Galloway, who went to Harvard.

That's right.

We should go to Harvard.

That's right.

Let's go to Harvard.

Soon-to-be Harvard graduates.

Let's go to Harvard.

Harvard.

You know what?

Can I tell you what I do to Harvard?

Delray and Calorama campuses of Harvard.

I told you what I do to Harvard people, don't you?

Because they always mention they went to Harvard.

I do to Harvard people.

You know, even if 30 years hence they have been to Harvard, they tell you they went to Harvard within 15 minutes.

What I did would do is when they say that, they go, you know, they mention it and I go, where?

And then I go, Harvard.

I go, MIT is such a good school.

It's Boston, right?

And they're like, no, Harvard.

I go, Yale.

And I just, I like, I literally,

and they go, they don't get that I'm completely making fun of them.

Okay, so how to tell someone you're an asshole without telling them you're an asshole?

Say you went to school in Boston.

That's you pretending to be coy and humble, but you want everyone to know you went to Harvard.

No one says, no one who goes to Boston College or MIT says, I went to school in Boston.

That's only Harvard.

It drives me insane when someone says, well, I went to school in Boston.

I'm like, oh, that's.

So you're saying you went to Harvard, but you want to pretend not to be a self-absorbed asshole.

Oh, man.

You want to tell everyone you went to Harvard without telling them you went to Harvard.

So then I'm just going to fix that.

Very good.

All right.

Very good.

We know what to do at Harvard people because we're just jealous.

All right, Harvard, let's go.

All right, Harvard, your new name is Harvard.

Let's go in a quick break.

And when we come back, we'll discuss LinkedIn's China exit.

And we'll talk to a friend of Privet, Christopher Mims, about supply chain issues because it's very important these days.

As a founder, you're moving fast towards product market fit, your next round, or your first big enterprise deal.

But with AI accelerating how quickly startups build and ship, security expectations are also coming in faster, and those expectations are higher than ever.

Getting security and compliance right can unlock growth or stall it if you wait too long.

Vanta is a trust management platform that helps businesses automate security and compliance across more than 35 frameworks like SOC2, ISO 27001, HIPAA, and more.

With deep integrations and automated workflows built for fast-moving teams, Vanta gets you audit-ready fast and keeps you secure with continuous monitoring as your models, infrastructure, and customers evolve.

That's why fast-growing startups like Langchang, Ryder, and Cursor have all trusted Vanta to build a scalable compliance foundation from the start.

Go to Vanta.com slash Vox to save $1,000 today through the Vanta for Startups program and join over 10,000 ambitious companies already scaling with Vanta.

That's vanta.com slash box to save $1,000 for a limited time.

Support for Pivot comes from LinkedIn.

From talking about sports, discussing the latest movies, everyone is looking for a real connection to the people around them.

But it's not just person to person, it's the same connection that's needed in business.

And it can be the hardest part about B2B marketing, finding the right people, making the right connections.

But instead of spending hours and hours scavenging social media feeds, you can just tap LinkedIn ads to reach the right professionals.

According to LinkedIn, they have grown to a network of over 1 billion professionals, making it stand apart from other ad buys.

You can target your buyers by job title, industry, company role, seniority skills, and company revenue, giving you all the professionals you need to reach in one place.

So you can stop wasting budget on the wrong audience and start targeting the right professionals only on LinkedIn ads.

LinkedIn will even give you $100 credit on your next campaign so you can try it for yourself.

Just go to linkedin.com slash pivot pod.

That's linkedin.com slash pivot pod.

Terms and conditions apply.

Only on LinkedIn ads.

Okay, we're back.

Microsoft's LinkedIn announced on Thursday it will shut down its Chinese version of the website because of China's censorship rules.

In March, China's internet regulator told LinkedIn they had 30 days to start better moderating their content, resulting in the blocking of a number of China-focused activists and journalists.

The company announced it would be launching a China-specific version later this year, solely based on jobs, resume, et cetera, ditching the social features.

Of course, it is a social network.

People don't think of it that way.

The site was the last major Western social media platform to operate in China.

So, was this the right move?

I don't, I feel like something else happened here because they had been operating.

It's just China's crackdown, but it's going everywhere, I guess.

It's a big market for LinkedIn, third largest.

Yeah,

my sense is that

China isn't becoming more open.

Yeah.

And that whatever constraints they place on these companies, I think, have only gotten more arduous or more authoritarian.

And also, I think a lot of companies have decided we can be very successful without the China market.

It's really interesting.

Kind of the ultimate buy signal is when China bans you.

Is it?

When they ban Google, they ban Facebook, they ban crypto.

I mean, it seems like when they ban someone, that's when you buy.

Yeah.

Well, LinkedIn's trying to play it down, but it is an important market for them.

It just is.

It's their third most important market.

Obviously, they're sort of like tucked into Microsoft, so they can ha they have a lot more choices.

But the idea that they thought they could operate, you know, I suspect people were using it more like a social network there.

And so they're keeping the job part of it.

But part of the

key part

of...

LinkedIn is the social element to it, even though you don't, it's just a useful social element versus, you know, some of the others.

I mean, you never hear about problems on LinkedIn because most people are talking about jobs, but there's still a social element to it.

But it's a challenging operating environment, to say the least.

Yeah, no doubt.

So

what do you imagine the Chinese can do in this case with all these people leaving, essentially?

And then them

pushing down innovation, I would say, in their own markets by their own companies.

Yeah, but if you were to look at the arc of we like to talk our own narrative about free markets and how

it's really bad.

If

Italy kicked out Google, it would be bad bad for everybody.

And the pasta would get worse.

And we come up with this narrative that is uniquely American and focused on letting our innovators go.

Free markets are a very powerful concept.

But if you look at what China's done, okay, so Italy let Google come in.

Italy let Facebook come in.

What's happened to Italy's media companies, wages, tech sector.

And then if you look at China, China's gangster move is they let them in long enough to steal their IP.

And let's be honest, it's IP theft.

And then they kick them up, kick them out, and they prop up a local entrepreneur and they capture the majority of the value themselves.

And they have a large enough market and strong enough universities and a strong enough technology and a strong enough financial ecosystem, venture ecosystem to support homegrown companies.

And a lot of, you know, we like to think, oh, it's, and I'm not talking about the morality or the autocracy or IP theft.

I'm not blessing any of it.

But China could have let these companies just run unfettered there.

Instead, they said, no, we're going to steal your shit, similar to what we did with textile manufacturers in the 19th and 18th century here in the U.S.

with British and European manufacturing technology.

They kick them out and then they prop up and they capture all the value themselves.

And I think it's hard to argue from a state standpoint that

that was probably the right move.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But at the same time, listen, this is a story from the journal.

Beijing once touted the LinkedIn model, which involves a contractual relation between its headquarters and the Chinese nationals who actually own the platform in the country as a way for global internet businesses to access its market.

Such a model provided overseas headquarters little control over the China operation.

It was never popular in Silicon Valley.

And again, this is not just the only one.

Twitter and Facebook's platforms have been blocked since 2009.

Alphabet's Google left by themselves on their own accord in 2010 after declining to censor results.

Chat Messenger app Signal and Audio Discussion App Clubhouse were blocked.

So it's just, this is a really interesting story.

We aren't paying as much attention to.

But LinkedIn, you can see how LinkedIn might be able to thread the needle because it's it's less politics.

It's less, you know, people aren't, don't plan insurrections or revolutions on LinkedIn.

It's very much.

Well, they don't want those activists and journalists there.

It doesn't matter.

They don't want they want to stifle dissent in any way possible.

Agreed.

I absolutely love LinkedIn.

I no longer respond to people on any platform except LinkedIn.

LinkedIn enforces identity.

People are much more civil.

The difference in LinkedIn is that people assume you're coming to the table in good faith, not in bad faith.

And I find every other platform, everyone assumes you've come to the table in bad faith and is looking to dunk on you, or you don't know who's responding to you and why they're responding to you.

And LinkedIn, in my opinion, is the most civil productive.

That's what they were trying to do in China, and it didn't work.

They had come under a lot of criticism for doing that.

But even they thought it was

too much censorship, essentially.

And China and Microsoft are at odds sometimes,

even though they meet and everything else.

So it's a really,

and then, of course, Microsoft was dragged into the

TikTok thing, if you recall.

They were going to be one possible buyer.

I was like, I'm going to go to the Trump for a hot minute.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, as you know, when I interviewed Satchinadella recently, he was like, oh, this was good.

The reason when I read it.

Oh, I smoke cigars and

spread moisturizer on the small Satcha.

How's that going?

By the way, did you see Casey Hunt?

I hope she's okay.

She has a brain issue.

Benign.

Benign.

Yeah, but it was benign.

It was benign.

And the prognosis is really good.

Yeah, I just was like,

you're going to have to carry the whole thing.

That was shocking.

It was.

It was a surprise.

As a small kid, let's hope she gets better because, you know, she needs to be there to watch you.

That's the only

particular thing.

You think?

Yeah.

Did you see me in my red dress marching on the corner?

I saw the other day, Philip.

What were you doing?

We're going to bring on Chris Minister, but let's have a moment for that.

Let's not talk about China and global issues.

Let's talk about why you're wearing a red dress.

Let's talk about daddy and dress.

You're signaling China?

No, I was doing a rundown of the recent S1s, All Birds, Warby Parker, on Running, and of course, Rent the Runaway.

And so I put on, I was wearing something from all of them.

And I was walking around Soho with like, you know,

CNN and tow.

Yeah.

And people just stopped and started filming and screaming at me.

It was so nice.

It was very rewarding.

Good.

Wait, this was, is this going to be on CNN?

You in a dress.

Yeah, I don't know if you've heard.

I have a show with this.

I understand you're on the plue.

I know you're on the plue.

The blue.

The blue.

But you're going to, you were,

I think you found your people.

They let you wear a dress.

That's great.

Yeah.

I look nice in that dress.

You did.

The shoes.

I have more legs.

Amanda did not like your shoes.

Amanda did not like them.

I know you were wearing them.

One was an on and one was an all-man.

I know.

I know what you were doing.

I know what you were doing, but she didn't think it worked for you.

She thought you looked good in a pair of heels.

That's what she said to me.

I'd be six foot five in heels.

I'd be irresistible in heels.

I would be irresistible in heels.

Let's bring on that note.

Let's bring on Christopher Mims.

Yes.

Let's bring in our friend of Pivot, Christopher Mims.

Christopher is a technology columnist at the Wall Street Journal and author of a new book, Arriving Today, a book about global supply chains, which is perfectly timed because of all the controversy about global supply chains right now.

Welcome, Christopher.

How are you doing?

Good.

How are you guys doing?

So talk to us of global supply chains.

Let's talk about the now.

This, you know, it's in the news a lot.

Obviously, nobody talks about global supply chains very much, but now they are with shortages in all kinds of areas.

So less products, obviously, on the shelves.

And also, there's less employees right now because of the big quit, apparently, the big resignation.

So talk a little bit about the landscape right now.

So the landscape right now is very weird.

Americans have been on a shopping spree ever since about May of 2020.

And global supply chains just, we're not designed to accommodate this much demand, especially in the U.S.

You know, on top of that, you have the great resignation, which you mentioned.

And, you know, part of that is hitting jobs that are specifically kind of not great jobs in general, like trucking.

So it's kind of hitting the supply chain as hard as any other area, you know, harder than hospitality, even in some ways.

So you got a labor shortage, you got record demand because people still aren't going on vacations and they're just spending, spending, spending on goods.

And then you just have all these weird bottlenecks, warehouses, rail yards, ports, ships.

You don't have enough shipping containers.

Factories get shut down every month or two somewhere in East Asia or Southeast Asia because of the, of course, the zero COVID policy in China.

So we're all just kind of like on this grand journey together where we find out that if chip packaging in Malaysia shuts down for a month, you can't buy a, you know, Ford F-150 or whatever two months later in the U.S.

Right.

All right.

So what is the solution?

I know there's been all sorts of things proposed, but from your perspective, what is the solution to what's happening?

Well, recession is always a quick and dirty solution to these kinds of problems.

We don't like that.

That's a bad solution.

Yeah.

No, short of that,

what you would like is for people to kind of rebalance supply chains in ways that are maybe are a little more sustainable.

And, you know, market economics are kind of doing their job right now.

Like you see Amazon advertising

right now.

If you want to go work in a typical Amazon warehouse, you can get a $3,000

starting bonus and $22 an hour, which is well above what Jeff Bezos was touting when they went to $15 an hour.

Trucking is a little harder because it's just a really shit job in a lot of ways, long-haul trucking, and no amount of money is going to get people back into that at the rates that we need them.

And then you have startups tackling like weird parts of the supply chain that nobody ever understood were an issue.

Like there's this one called Next Trucking, which is tackling scheduling of trucks in and out of ports, which turns out to be this enormous pain point on the West Coast in the U.S.

So it's a, you know, hopefully you get better regulation.

There is some stuff in the infrastructure bill, if that passes, that would help.

You know, some of what we're seeing is, you know, you think of Los Angeles, you think of Hollywood, but like LA is a very industrial place.

And over the past 10 years, for every $1 that the federal government has invested in ports on the West Coast, they invented $9

in ports on the East Coast.

So in some ways, this is like a supply crunch of our own making.

So hopefully with the infrastructure bill, they won't just spend it on more highways or whatever.

They'll spend it on, you know, bigger and better ports.

And then there's all kinds of weird things happening.

Like there's going to be a lot more automation coming to those ports.

And those robots in certain jobs really do make a big difference.

Big difference.

Right.

Right.

As they, as they have.

Scott?

First off, just a couple of questions.

How long did it take you to bring your book to market?

That's a little supply chain humor, Christopher.

That's a little supply chain.

And most importantly, you asked me to blurb your book.

Why didn't you ask Kara?

Yeah, you know, it's not important.

Let's move on.

Anyways, anyways.

By the way, I think Christopher is a total fucking gangster.

I love your work, Christopher.

One thing in your book that just blew me away, the moment you click order on Amazon, it's out of the warehouse in 45 minutes.

It strikes me that they are just operating at an absolute different level than the rest of everyone.

Can you talk about the investments Amazon has made?

Because you started to write a book about Amazon and widened it out.

But talk about that.

That's absolutely true.

They seem to be the logistics kings or emperors.

Yeah.

I mean, Amazon, you know, they, the same way that Apple has this tremendous lead over everybody in terms of chip design, which, you know, is happening as we record this, as they announce a new faster-than-ever MacBook Pro and everything.

Amazon has a lead over everybody in terms of like warehouse design, the software that runs warehouses, the robots that populate those warehouses.

And that's because, you know, they bought Kiva, which was this robot provider to like the whole logistics industry, and they fully ingested it and cut off all its outside contracts.

And now,

you know, those robots make their warehouses.

Yeah, I think Deutsche Bank estimated that they are like 40% more efficient than they were before they had all this robotics.

And they just keep adding more and more new kinds of robots and new kinds of Amazon fulfillment centers because they're just treating it like it's a big software problem.

Anytime they can bring in these robots that can operate in a very consistent way, it just becomes a software problem that their engineers can solve in that way.

And then the human just becomes kind of embedded in that automation.

And the human has to function like a robot, which is why you got all these reports about there being so many injuries in Amazon warehouses, because the evidence is that the more automation they added, it actually increased the injury rate.

Because it's just a repetitive stress industry, sorry, repetitive stress injury, because people are doing this over and over and over again, 10 hours a day, you know, with three breaks.

They're going to get some kind of injury if they're older than 25.

I have a couple of questions about second order effects.

I think supply chain is turning out to be the biggest business story of the year.

And we don't even, there's just going to be so many externalities.

I don't know what the term is.

But one is you referenced, and that is for 40 years, if you think of shareholders, consumers, and workers, workers have been ceding advantage and capital to consumers and shareholders.

And it feels like in a violent way, there is a perfect storm where workers are starting to get some of that ground back.

And you referenced it, where all of a sudden we're going from 15 to 20 to 22 bucks.

I'm on the board of a consumer company right now, and it's just crazy what we need to do to get people.

The other thing that people aren't talking about is the geopolitical consideration, and that is I saw for the first time China's growth was at 4.9%.

That's the lowest in 30 years.

It strikes me that there might be a geopolitical shift back of power to the U.S.

because our fulfillment is in zeros and ones and their fulfillment is in stuff.

Does this have huge geopolitical ramifications that, quite frankly, the U.S., our our fulfillment infrastructure as a services-based economy is humming, and China is the big loser here?

Maybe.

I think if China becomes the big loser, it is not so much a trade-off with the United States as with the rest of Asia, Mexico, elsewhere.

And that is because what you're seeing is, I mean, we don't have the labor in the U.S.

to reshore all this manufacturing that went to China.

We just don't.

It takes a certain number of, unless we are going to do complete open borders and we're going to go to you know, a billion Americans, we don't have the labor to make all the stuff we consume.

Just straight up do not.

And we cannot automate it away yet.

But what you're seeing is companies are like, oh crap, our supply chains are incredibly vulnerable.

Let's not forget that before the pandemic, we had a trade war, which really kicked off.

all of this move out of China and was the reason that in my reporting, I went to Vietnam as sort of the avatar of Southeast Asia instead of going to China.

So you could see manufacturing move more and more into Vietnam, Thailand, the Philippines.

Let's not forget that India has 1.3 billion people.

Like

they could, they could be the world's next China if they can get their act together in some ways.

So I think supply chains are still going to be long, but what you're going to have is Nike is going to have a factory in China and they'll have a factory in Vietnam.

And maybe they'll also have a factory in India or somewhere else.

So diversifying so that you have some redundancy.

Yes.

And you could ask that one.

Why don't you move to Mexico?

Why not the U.S.?

Why not?

I just interviewed Farris Stockman about her book about work, you know, American Made.

And people have talked about it.

People at Apple have talked about it more on certain things, not everything, like the Gorilla Glass, et cetera.

Why not?

Because online shopping obviously has been rising during the pandemic.

Everybody's ordering and comfortable with ordering in the way, the new way people are buying.

Even though people say to buy local, they're really using using Amazon much more heavily.

So, would you imagine there being a manufacturing here?

And could someone like Amazon lead it?

Just-in-time manufacturing?

Or I'm just picking someone throwing out, but do you imagine that a trend, or is it still just too expensive, too much regulation, et cetera?

I mean, let's not forget that America still makes a ton of stuff.

By dollars, value of goods, we make the same amount as China.

So,

I think that again, the issue here in America is,

you know, we just don't have the labor.

Like we,

if Amazon can pay you $22 an hour and a $3,000 hiring bonus to distribute the goods that are made in Asia,

now if Amazon wants to get into manufacturing, they're competing with themselves for that labor.

Like we need all the labor we can get just to distribute all the crap that we buy.

So it would be, you know, look, you do have Intel that's going to like get whatever it is, tens of billions in subsidies to put more chip fabs in the United States.

But let's not forget that, like, while that is specialized and it's high-value, chip fabs and this other type of high-value manufacturing that the U.S.

still is great at, it's not super labor-intensive, right?

Like, you build a new data center, it's like the least labor-intensive, most economically productive thing ever, which is why the big four-tech companies.

So, you don't see that except labor and regulation, presumably.

Yeah, it would be tough.

I mean, look, there's a ton of stuff that America, we just forget how much America makes.

Like, we make trains.

I have a cousin who works at a pump factory.

Let me tell you, pumps in a world of extreme weather are doing better than ever.

You know, go work at the pump factory if you need a job.

Like, there's commercial jetliners, all kinds of things.

Yeah, I mean, we just make so much.

We make all of that.

We make so much of the specialized equipment that gets shipped to Asia to make the chips and the LCD displays and everything else.

Like, a lot of that high-value stuff is still standing around Silicon Valley and elsewhere.

I guess begs the question, should we be making so much stuff?

They had talked about the supply chain crisis being the fact that everybody just orders instantly has gotten into this way.

You don't buy local.

You don't use ship.

The sustainability retail has been one of the things.

My kids even mentioned it this weekend.

Like it was, it just, how do you look at that trend?

Or is that just like, forget it, human beings are going to suck up every piece of equipment in the world until we're done?

Yeah, I mean, I do think that in the same way you had a few years years ago,

this movement towards time well spent, it is worth thinking about the exact same kind of brain hacks that have gotten us to just scroll and scroll and scroll and taken up all of our time have been used to get us to just buy and buy and buy.

Like one-click shopping, eliminating all of that friction has definitely made us that much more willing to consume.

So, I mean, I do, you're right.

It's human nature.

And

I kind of hope that some of these supply chain disruptions will make people pause and think about that a little more, be more conscientious about what and how they buy.

But, you know, it's never

daddy the blank.

So

let's move to an investment thesis.

Given the dramatic change in supply chain and the fact that it's...

it's this kind of all of a sudden reared.

I don't want to say reared its ugly head, but it's just shown how incredibly important it was and how spoiled we were.

Do you find, do you you think certain sectors or certain companies are especially well positioned or vulnerable?

Let's just assume, I'm going to assume Amazon's going to be a big winner here.

So let's take that one off the table.

Is it video game companies where we're going to be downloading video games during Christmas instead of trying to figure out, you know, the toys, physical stuff?

Is Apple really well positioned because they have a guy, basically a supply chain guy running the company?

And who's vulnerable?

Who are the winners and losers here from an investment thesis?

Yeah, I mean, who's vulnerable are people who are moving

margin goods?

And I'm not sure exactly how to turn that into an investment thesis, but like, I don't know, maybe there's a secret threat to Dollar General or something

because so many of the low margin goods can't get to us anymore.

Because, you know, if the spot price of a shipping container went from $2,000 to $20,000 to get it across the ocean, then there's tons of stuff that it's not profitable to move here at any.

price that anyone will pay.

I think you're right.

Apple's in a great position, although even they have said that this is going to impact iPhone 13 production, the chip shortage.

Yep.

You know, automakers are obviously taking a bath.

I do think that virtual goods are a winner, right?

Because, you know, like there's a big problem now getting books, physical books to people.

People have been resistant to, you know, e-books for a long time.

I think 70% of reading is still paper books.

But like, you know, I mean, that's a bet on Amazon again.

You know, it's, it's with the, with the big retailers, it really is a big, get bigger type of situation because whether you're talking about Lowe's or Walmart or even Ikea, they have the resources to requisition a certain number of shipping containers and ships.

And then what happens is everybody else gets squeezed out.

And I think one of the challenges you have is you have some old line industries, like people who are going to export agricultural commodities, end up being the weird victims of this because they're like, we can't get enough shipping containers to get soybeans to China.

And then they get hit.

So I think there's going to be like third-order effects where China's like, oh shit, we are short 20% of the soybeans that we normally import and we can't produce enough pork or something like that.

And that has some downstream impacts that I can't even predict.

All right, Chris.

So your book is going to be all virtual, then, right?

No, no, they're selling actual copies of it.

I was just telling you, I ordered seven things from Amazon while we were talking.

No, I didn't.

I don't.

But we've become very used to it.

It's really, I think the pandemic has accelerated a lot of things that Scott and I talk about.

And this is one of them:

is the use of just-in-time purchasing.

And I think going the idea of going back to local thrift shops, people just push that button.

It's a really interesting thing.

So, Christopher, you deserve an award for literally the most perfect time in the world.

If this book is not a bestseller, it means your book really fucking sucks.

Yes.

I mean, it could be.

Literally,

the moons have lined up in a big way for you.

So, a book on supply chain coming out this week.

So, a book called Arriving Today.

Well, done, my brother.

Well done.

A book called Arriving Today is Arriving Today.

Thank you, Christopher.

Thank you so much for having me.

All right, Scott, that was fascinating.

Supply chain.

One more quick break.

We'll be back.

And by the way, those were very good questions, Scott.

We'll be back for wins and fails.

Support for this show comes from Robinhood.

Wouldn't it be great to manage your portfolio on one platform?

With Robinhood, not only can you trade individual stocks and ETFs, you can also seamlessly buy and sell crypto at at low costs.

Trade all in one place.

Get started now on Robinhood.

Trading crypto involves significant risk.

Crypto trading is offered through an account with Robinhood Crypto LLC.

Robinhood Crypto is licensed to engage in virtual currency business activity by the New York State Department of Financial Services.

Crypto held through Robinhood Crypto is not FDIC insured or SIPIC protected.

Investing involves risk, including loss of principal.

Securities trading is offered through an account with Robinhood Financial LLC, member SIPIC, a registered broker dealer.

Support for the show comes from Saks Fifth Avenue.

Sacks Fifth Avenue makes it easy to shop for your personal style.

Follow us here, and you can invest in some new arrivals that you'll want to wear again and again, like a relaxed product blazer and Gucci loafers, which can take you from work to the weekend.

Shopping from Saks feels totally customized, from the in-store stylist to a visit to Saks.com, where they can show you things that fit your style and taste.

They'll even let you know when arrivals from your favorite designers are in, or when that Brunella Cuccinelli sweater you've been eyeing is back in stock.

So, if you're like me and you need shopping to be personalized and easy head to sacks fifth avenue for the best follow arrivals and style inspiration

okay scott wins and fails uh

i i don't have any i don't have any no

i see one of us prepared for this podcast yes i didn't i just need to start investing in this relationship all these people talking be giving pete buttigej a hard time i'm going to personally beat up all of them

just for you know matt whatever that guy's name is, Walsh or whatever, and Stephen Crowder.

They're dicks.

They're just, they're not dicks.

They're dickless.

How's that?

All right.

Go ahead.

That's my fail.

So my win is, well, I'll start with my fail because I want to end on an optimistic note.

My fail is I think this is a really important dialogue we're having around

transgender rights, transphobia.

And I think that there's a lot to be learned here.

And I think David Chappelle and Netflix have been a positive force in this.

I I think that it's good to have a thought-provoking conversation and a dialogue.

And I think that

what we need more of is

not a reflexive gag reflex to make an immediate assumption or judgment and then move to destruction.

That it's the other side's fault, the other side's too sensitive, or this side is creating more transphobia, so we need to cancel them.

I think there just has to be, we have to flip the ratio from 20% dialogue and 80% destruction and talk about, okay, let's learn from this.

This is an opportunity.

And I do think that...

I agree with you.

The only thing is this is a group of people getting the shit kicked out of them right as we speak.

That's the only thing I wish people would keep in mind.

But

tell me if you agree with this.

I think this long term or short, medium, and long term is good for the trans community.

I think a lot of people are spending time on this issue that weren't before, that made snap judgments about this community and are recognizing that this community is taking it.

America is basically be the person you want to be, and you're afforded certain protections.

And it's coming to light that these people

have not benefited from that Americanism.

And I think we're going to evolve and get to a better place because of this dialogue.

I also think that we're going to,

it's a warrant, it's a conversation worth having, but I think there has to be more dialogue and less destruction.

But dialogue through the context of comedy is really powerful because it takes your guard down.

It takes takes the mucous membrane around the bubble you're in and it softens it.

And it says, okay, maybe you should be open to listening from both sides.

So

my fail, if you will, is I'd like to see more dialogue and less move to destruction on both sides.

And two,

oh, my win.

I saw the Bond film.

Yeah.

And

my win is Daniel Craig.

I think Daniel Craig cements himself

in 10 years.

When we look back, you know, there's always that big thing, like, who's the best Bond?

In 10 years, seven of 10 people critics will say that Daniel Craig was the best Bond.

He was not the most handsome.

Roger Moore and Sean Connery were more handsome, but he was the most,

the physicality he brought to the role was really impressive.

He's also a lot of people.

You actually believe

he and Bond, or I'm sorry, he and Connery were the only two Bonds that really...

credibly could have, you felt, could kill people with their hands.

The physicality was really impressive.

And also, also, He'll Go Down is the best actor in the role.

He's a great.

Connery was just mean, like, just like tough as nails on the bottom.

Badass.

And I think impenetrable.

He has feelings.

Daniel Craig's a fantastic actor.

Munich, Layer Cake, which I think was his best movie.

Knives Out.

He's a great, he really is legitimately a great actor.

I think that Daniel Craig cements his status.

It's a great movie as what will, he will be perceived.

He will win that trivia game eventually over who is the best Bond.

So anyways, my win stands.

I think the short win was the squid game skit on SNL with Raimi Malik, who plays the villain in that movie.

And Pete Davidson was very, very funny.

And Daniel Cage showed up there.

That was very good.

Yeah.

Good ones.

Good one.

I like it.

All right, Scott.

Plus, he's a handsome drink-a-man, isn't he?

He's a hand.

He's got.

Yeah.

That guy's.

And only that.

It's not a young man.

He's 53.

The body at 53.

Yeah.

That's scary shit.

Anyway, Scott, thank you for.

And he's married to Rachel Weiss.

I think we'd all be really good friends.

I think we should hang out with you.

I don't think he's going to hang out with you.

I don't think he's going to hang out with you.

You don't think so?

Maybe if you wore the dress.

Who knows?

Anyway.

Anyway, read us up.

Today's show was produced by Lara Naman, Evan Engel, and Taylor Griffin or Nanchrotot engineered this episode.

Thank you also to Drew Burrows.

Make sure you subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts.

If you're an Android user, check us out on Spotify, frankly, wherever you listen to podcasts.

If you liked our show, please recommend it to a friend.

Our next episode tapes live from Ad Week in New York City.

Check it out on Friday.

Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media.

Let's move to dialogue.

Let's move to dialogue.

Let's hold off the destruction demon at the door for just a little bit longer.

Let's show more grace with each other.

Dialogue, not destruction.

This month on Explain It to Me, we're talking about all things wellness.

We spend nearly $2 trillion on things that are supposed to make us well.

Collagen smoothies and cold plunges, Pilates classes, and fitness trackers.

But what does it actually mean to be well?

Why do we want that so badly?

And is all this money really making us healthier and happier?

That's this month on Explain It To Me, presented by Pureleaf.

Mike and Alyssa are always trying to outdo each other.

When Alyssa got a small water bottle, Mike showed up with a four litre junk.

When Mike started gardening, Alyssa started beekeeping.

They called a truce for their holiday and used Expedia Trip Planner to collaborate on all the details of their trip.

Once there, Mike still did more laps around the pool.

Whatever.

You were made to outdo your holidays.

We were made to help organize the competition.

Expedia, made to travel.