Toyota's GOP contributions, BuzzFeed's SPAC and a Friend of Pivot from Microsoft

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Hi, everyone.

This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network.

I'm Kara Swisher.

And I'm an Olympic hopeful.

No, you're not.

Why?

I am as much an Olympic hopeful as anybody else.

You don't need to fill out paperwork.

You don't need to demonstrate any athletic ability.

I take edibles, go into the jacuzzi, and I'm passionate about synchronized swimming in that moment.

I am an Olympic hopeful.

Oh my God, Scott, you're not.

Anybody can be an Olympic hopeful.

They cannot.

They cannot.

Yeah, they can't.

Literally, they can't.

They would like wipe the floor with you, the Olympians.

The Olympians.

I wouldn't call it Olympia.

I lived with Olympians when I was in college when I was an athlete.

How was that?

Yeah.

Well, it's inspiring until you realize that it's inspiring until you realize that most sports are kind of a,

I don't call it a fraud.

They're all calling me at 28 asking for help getting jobs.

There's a half a percent of sports is a pang, and the rest is,

yeah,

I think the optimal, what was I'm going the optimal athletic ability is to be just good enough to play sports in college, but to never have delusions that you're going to make a living.

Right.

And a lot of people go to the Olympics.

I mean, it's an inspiring week, but I would argue a lot of them look back and go, okay, was that really worth it?

Interesting.

Well, they kind of have to.

You got to put your life in there.

I had a friend who was a great skater, and

she almost went that direction.

And she actually skated one summer.

And there was another skater there, Dorothy Hamill, if you remember, who was also,

she was up in that league, and she decided, no, she wanted a life and she's very successful.

She runs, she was a prosecutor.

She runs Princeton University.

You know what I mean?

Anyway, she was a really good skater.

She could have gone the distance, as they say.

She could have been a contender.

Could have been a contender.

Karris Fisher, never, not once.

I hate sports, as you know.

I could see you on the ice.

No.

I just like that image.

No, there's no Karris Fisher on the ice unless I'm wearing a furry costume.

I like that.

I like that.

Look at the pairs dancers.

You and

you're the gay one.

You're the gay one.

Oh, so hello.

Hello.

I've got you.

I was pretty gay.

My mother was here in this.

I'm in Rhode Island on vacation.

My mother was here.

She's asking if you were still gay, Jesse.

Still gay.

Yeah.

Happy Pride.

Anyway, Pride took place this week.

Thank you.

I'm just all of it.

I'm in a closet right now broadcasting, as people know, on my vacation, which is I enjoy being in.

Happy Pride.

I'm in the closet.

So there's a lot of serious things going on.

First of all, Tesla had to recall nearly all of its vehicles sold in China over concerns over its cruise control system.

Not good.

Big problem.

Big problem, don't you think, or not?

These things are going to happen, but still.

I actually don't.

You know, I think Tesla is, as I've repeatedly said, incredibly overvalued.

But I don't, I don't, a recall.

First off, I have a Tesla.

I never used the cruise control.

It was sort of a gimmick.

I used it a lot in the beginning.

And I think there's something about having a steering wheel in front of you where it's so unnatural, you just can't get used to it.

The idea idea of not being in control when there's a steering wheel.

I don't like cruise control.

I don't like cruise control at all.

I don't think it's I think this is a bump.

I really don't.

I mean, if they continue to have recalls that reflects poorly on their manufacturing, I don't think it's a big deal.

All right.

Well, okay, then.

And the antitrust bills that aim to break up big tech companies have passed initial hurdles and debates in Congress.

There's some back and forth with the Republicans who still want more conservatism and who's going to fit in here and which companies.

So it's actually moving ahead in Congress.

We'll see how many of them actually pass, but they are moving forward, which is interesting.

Yeah, it's exciting, right?

We've been waiting for this for 10 years.

We'll see.

We'll see.

We'll see.

I think they're going to get a watered-down version of everything.

You know, look what happened to the infrastructure bill, which was really heavy on EVs and everything else, along with everything was sort of the kitchen sink was in that bill.

And

we'll see.

We'll see.

I'm hoping for the best, but we'll see how much of it passes and how much it gets watered down.

And then there's the Senate and it runs right into Joe Mansion, et cetera.

We'll see.

We'll see how that goes.

Obviously, the biggest story this week is something down your way.

You're not there right now, but an apartment building in Miami collapsed late last week, which I think is just shocking to many people across this country because it doesn't happen very often.

The death toll is that nine people and 150 people are still missing.

It's an obvious tragedy.

You know, we're thinking of we're doing an event in Miami later this year, not far from where this is.

What are your reflections from being from Floridian?

There's obviously climate change issues.

There's just the sea and buildings so close and everything else.

Although this, I think, is a real rare occurrence.

Yeah, well, I think,

look,

I can't imagine sort of a worse sort of tragedy playing out than having a level and go missing, right?

That's just,

that's just unimaginable and just creates a constant,

I imagine, level of slow burn tragedy

awful, right?

So

a huge tragedy.

But I don't,

in terms of its impact, I think its impact is on the brand that is the U.S., not brand Florida.

And that is slowly but surely, or not slowly but surely, it's been leading up the lack of respect for government, the lack of respect for investing in our infrastructure and opting for tax cuts or opting to cut taxes on corporations.

We have slowly but surely become a third world country.

And that is what happened there, and we don't know the exact cause, but that wasn't us.

That never used to be us.

That shit,

buildings in the middle of a city just pancaking and killing people.

That didn't used to happen in America.

Right.

And I feel like.

This is so rare.

This is shocking, I think.

When you saw that picture and you saw the collapse itself, because everything's monitored now, it was pretty like, what?

Like, you've only seen it when they purposely do this, or you're from another country, really, from a third world country.

It's true.

Yeah, but

whether it's shitty airports, whether it's homeless encampments propping up in our best cities or our most prestigious cities, or it's buildings just randomly pancaking, it reflects, in my opinion, that we've kind of lost the script that we're no longer investing in our nation.

And who I do think comes out of this a winner?

I think Biden's infrastructure bill is now going to pass or it's going to, it's, people are going to go, you know, at some point, at some point, you got to fix the fucking plumbing or you're going to start springing lakes everywhere.

Yeah, yeah.

So

unfortunately, that's what happened.

Water was a big thing, and obviously, building along Miami, there are, you know, there's these continuing things, which, you know, we've talked to the different politicians in there about what they're going to do with sea walls and the expense that it's going to take.

And that's one thing.

It's not just that, but it's the building in these areas.

You know, I'm in Rhode Island right now, and all I keep thinking is, this is all going to be underwater.

This is the, I don't know why it's so beautiful here and gorgeous, but you know, the sea has been just reaching closer and closer into the land.

And you sort of are, you just think about it in a very different way wherever you travel when you're in a low sea area, sea level area.

And, you know, and then there's the natural corrosion that happens when you're by the ocean.

Obviously, in this case, that seems to have been an issue.

It could be a building issue.

It could be a lot of things.

But you're right.

It's that, you know, there were some warnings, but not explicit warnings.

No one, the reason why is because no one thought.

that it would be that much of a of a

collapse, that it might be things that they could fix.

And a lot of it was put off off because of the pandemic.

It was the slowness of dealing with issues that were there in this particular building.

It's interesting, though, just hearing you, you went to climate change.

And I'm not saying that's right or wrong.

No, I just went to

infrastructure.

Both.

And

I've always thought, and I still believe this, that an investment in infrastructure is an investment in the middle class.

Because if you're in Sao Paulo and the traffic is awful, you know what the rich do?

The rich take helicopters.

And so so they're fine with shitty infrastructure.

When you invest in great roads, bridges, tunnels, and infrastructure, you're saying to your middle class, we want you to be productive.

We want you to be able to get to work in 20 minutes, not two hours.

And this just reflects, again, that we have decided not to invest in the middle class.

I think infrastructure is straight line an investment.

in the middle class.

The link I want to make to climate change is that we are going to have to really think hard about how we want to rebuild stuff with that in mind, like as these things are occurring, because why rebuild if we're going to have like instant hurricanes or whatever?

We have to be thinking about wildfires in California and hurricanes in Florida and increased, you know, leaching of water into things.

So I think it's something we have to think about in tandem.

And that's one thing that I wish people would discuss climate change away from politics.

It's an economic issue, completely an economic issue.

And I don't think this is a climate change disaster.

This is just a disaster.

But you start to think about how we we build things going forward.

We've got to really think hard about it.

Anyway, we're going to, speaking of disasters, and it's not even close because this tragedy is just,

it really is sticking in a lot of people's minds.

But we're going to go on to the big story, which is

good news here.

What?

You gave a commencement speech.

I did.

Yes, I did to high schoolers.

It's my old school that I went from kindergarten to fifth grade.

And the Times published it because, you know, they like to publish those

those kind of things when I gave a little advice to the to young young folk young folks so give us the abridged version.

What was your so I'm sorry this was this was uh elementary school or a high school?

No, it was a high school.

I didn't finish it.

I went to an I finished it another high school.

Um and uh and so I they just asked me back.

I only went there until fifth grade.

I didn't but it was to seniors.

I did not give an address to fifth graders.

That would have been a huge disaster.

But no, I gave them a speech and my speech was about

something I kind of learned from you, Scott, is that like, like, don't, it was called don't do your homework.

Like, don't like put your head down and look at your screens and do your homework all the time when you have opportunities everywhere.

And like, try to have agency

in your life, the idea of agency and changing and shifting.

And I ended up quoting a little bit of Steve Jobs, who talked about this in one of his famous speeches to Stanford University, but also a poem by Lucille Clifton, which is called New Bones, is we have to always be growing new bones, no matter where we are in our lives.

It was all about new bones.

and so um it was it was good they liked it it was funny too i made some funny jokes and things like that i think they didn't think i was too much of a square but i don't know if you have you ever done a commencement speech

um i was chosen to be the student i was chosen or selected by my classmates to be the commencement speaker at uh the berkeley graduation um so i i gave the speech as the student or the student speaker, whatever you call it.

I remember it vividly.

I remember looking up in the audience and the thing that I don't even remember what I said, I remember seeing my mom in the audience.

It was the Greek theater at Berkeley, which is this wonderful theater.

Beautiful.

And I remember seeing my mom.

She was so proud.

She couldn't, she couldn't, she literally was just uncontrollably waving her arms.

Nice moment for us.

I know.

What was your message?

Do you remember?

What would it be today?

What would be your message to high schoolers today,

besides Chipotle and Cialis?

What would be your message to them?

You should be a monster.

You should be physically running long distances and lifting heavy weights mentally in your mind and in the gym.

You should be focused on three things and three things only, working your fucking ass off.

This bullshit about balance is bullshit.

We live in a capitalist society.

If you want to have influence, you need to work your ass off and get great at something.

Make small investments in relationships every day.

They pay off hugely, like small investments when you're young.

You know, you know, that whole thing you put 10 bucks away when you're a kid.

And then,

yeah, so I think it's, I think it's

work your ass off, invest in relationships, and then invest in being a monster physically.

I think physical fitness is really important for young people.

Interesting.

I thought it would have been edibles, the allison,

but okay.

Okay.

Enjoy that once you have a certain level of financial security.

Okay, all right, okay.

Yeah, anyways, that's

a very challenged there.

I was very focused on my answer.

I know.

It was an excellent answer.

And you too can be an Olympic hopeful in synchronized swimming.

I'd love to see you with a little hat on, a little nose,

and a bathing suit.

I'd love to see that.

You look kind of good.

You look kind of good in that.

Okay.

Well, I got more legs in a bucket of chicken.

That's what you always do.

That's what you always do.

Well, we're going to, we're not focusing on those things.

I've been clipping my legs, which I realize is a disturbing image.

Big story.

Time for the big story.

Data shows that Car Company Toyota is a company that has donated the most money to Republicans who voted against certifying the presidential election.

A liberal watch group called Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington found that Toyota had given 55,000 to 37 GOP objectors this year.

The Japanese car company has given twice as much to Republicans as the next largest company on the list called Cubic Corps and more than the Coke.

coke industries.

A Toyota spokesman told Axios who do not believe in

appropriate to judge members of Congress solely based on their votes on the electoral certification.

And so it was interesting because a lot of companies ran away from these people and said they weren't giving a lot of the tech companies.

And here's Toyota, who's like sells Priuses.

Who do they buy Priuses?

Certainly not.

There's no Venn diagram of Priuses and these voters.

But what do you think, Scott?

What do you think?

Look, I think you hate the game, not the player here.

I think Toyota is just trying to,

I think Toyota is just trying to spread it around so they can get, when they build a plan in Arkansas, they get,

they get the most subsidies.

I think all these big companies play that game.

I think they almost sort of have to.

I think until we have some sort of campaign.

I think, yeah, but I don't think Toyota decided we like the insurrection.

I just think it's oversight and the examination of the data is important and holding them accountable.

But at the end of the day, until we have campaign finance reform,

until we stop having senators that see, that are coin operated,

such as the senior senator from Florida, which is not only a whore, but an incredibly cheap whore.

I'm talking, of course, about Senator Marco Rubio.

He got that report released for aliens, but go ahead.

He's doing that job, whatever.

Okay.

Yeah, look, I don't think

it's awful, and it's awful.

It's, again, it's across our ecosystem.

We have decided, I mean, did you see the shit

on Roths, the savings accounts?

Yeah, we're going to do that.

It now ends up the billionaires are using this vehicle.

Yeah, middle-class people were given a financial instrument to save $2,000 a year, and then billionaires have been selling themselves massive amounts of stock for less than $2,000 such that they can

aggregate billions of dollars tax-free.

And then everyone, all the Senator Ron Wyden, Democrat, claims surprise and shock.

And to his credit, he did propose a bill, but it's like they knew all this shit.

They have been so co-opted by money.

Peter Thiel is high-fiving himself for this.

He thinks he shouldn't give money to these people.

He doesn't think they deserve any money, the government.

And so, you know,

he's high-fiving himself for being able to pull this off.

I don't think he's going to be able to do it.

Yeah, Yeah, but every senator,

the only one who cared was Warren Buffett, but he still did it a lot on his tech stuff.

That was a different mechanism, though.

Yeah, but they have been overrun.

They've been overrun with money and they've been overrun with the idolatry, even worse than this, the idolatry of money.

And that is they think billionaires are our most, I'm so sick of hearing people, we've got to reward our most productive citizens.

I'm like, okay, these are our most fortunate citizens that need to start giving back.

But this notion somehow that money hasn't, we don't have a counterbalance to billionaires and and money and these corporate

isn't it corporate washington is supposed to be a counterbalance not the whore they're supposed to be the one that is keeping in check power

i do the besides the righteous indignation of people who own priuses i mean i think people who bought that brand are like wait a minute like why am i you know i think they're more concerned about

yeah where's my money going just a minute like because a lot of companies did say i'm not giving money at least in this next election cycle a lot of companies it wasn't just tech companies a lot of companies to the people who voted against certification in this case.

And, you know, you pay for your votes.

That's it.

You know, if you don't, and a lot of companies did do it, and it might have been virtue signaling, but I think a lot of consumers, I've tweeted, you know, I did, I decided

you bought a Hyundai.

What was your tweet?

Kia.

I said I decided against the Toyota sedition and picked the Kia

Sorrento because it had more USB ports and 100% less insurrection.

And people went crazy.

It was interesting.

I was sort of surprised.

I did it late last night just as a a job.

Yeah, but when you buy a Kia, what you're really saying to the world is that you have a dependable, regular, consistent source of sex because you will never get new sex with a Kia.

So, what you're saying to the world, you're really bragging with Ikea.

You're saying, I have that part of my life taking care of it.

Wonderful.

You know, a lot of people, Kia is a wonderful car.

It's a, I got a hybrid.

I tried to get an electric, I couldn't get one, but um, but it's uh, let me just say, it's a lovely car.

It's, and you know, in the parking garages, people are always like, What is this?

All the parking guys are like, What is this?

They love it.

I was like, It's $30,000 less than a Volvo.

That's what this is.

This is what this is.

It's a hybrid.

Gets amazing.

It's like 45

miles to the gallon.

It's great.

You know, anyway.

You should get peacock.

I mean, literally, you have to peak.

You have, you're strange because on some levels, you have fantastic tastes, but Kia?

No, the Kia is a great car.

You're going to be shocked by the Kia.

I'm telling you, I get stopped.

The Sorrento.

It's got three sets of seats.

I won't go into why it needs three sets of seats, but I was not using a car, and now I have to.

There's a reason.

But in any case,

my midlife crisis just won't let me get near a Kia.

I can barely even say it.

It is, you are going to love the Kia.

We're going to go for a ride in the Kia.

We're going to go out, you know, collect.

More promises.

More empty promises.

Me and you and I.

Me and you and the Kia.

But nonetheless, that's a date I can turn to.

I almost bought a Toyota Highlander, and I'm glad I didn't.

Honestly, I'd be pissed.

You're going to buy a Highlander.

I was going to buy a Highlander.

Jesus Christ.

Why don't

I mean, I'm not even gonna go that note.

It was $20,000.

I'm gonna get a German Shepherd in the back and watch the L-word on streaming.

Jesus Christ.

Let's get back to these people.

I think you're gonna see an uptick in money to these people again after Toyota decided to just forge ahead.

And, you know, all the Prius owners are losing their ever-loving minds.

That's

an uptick of money to

these insurrection people, these people who voted for the insurrection essentially by voting against elections.

Do you think they're going to get more money?

I think they're going to, these companies that said they aren't going to give them to them are going to start giving back to them if they need to.

I think Corridor is just doing what you're right.

Of course.

But, you know, I'm glad that they get like that.

At least the people who buy Brius's know the lesbians and the people from Berkeley know where their money's going.

Actually, lesbians buy the Subaru.

So anyway, Kia.

It's the way to go.

All right, Scott, let's go on a quick break.

We'll be back to talk BuzzFeed going public via SPAC and a friend of Pivot from Microsoft.

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Scott, we're back.

BuzzFeed is planning to go public via SPAC.

No surprise, we talked this is the possibility.

We talked about it several times.

The digital publisher produces equal parts viral content and occasional hard-hitting reporting, Announced its plans to go public through the merger with a SPAC.

It will be valued at $1.5 billion, quite substantively less than they were a while back, but nonetheless, it's a big number.

It also announced it is acquiring Complex, a pop culture news outlet, a deal for a total of about $300 million, $100 million in stock,

$200 million in cash.

So, what do you think about this?

This is the beginning.

Obviously, Vox is right behind them, would be my guess.

But nonetheless, what do you think about this SPAC situation for BuzzFeed?

I'm excited.

There haven't been a lot of media IPOs.

The digital media ecosystem is terrible.

Kids come to my office hours and I think, I'm thinking I'm going to work in digital media.

I'm like, well, as long as you're going to work for Google or Facebook, otherwise it's a shitty business.

Yeah.

And digital media companies are kind of sans the triopoly of Google, Facebook, and Amazon.

It's like joining the yellow pages.

You're in a declining business.

And it's nice to see BuzzFeed 15 years old.

A lot of pivots.

I think they've got good leadership.

I think it's not.

I'm glad they're going public.

I'm glad to see there's some oxygen in the digital media echo space.

What I, I did look at their filing.

The thing that, or not their filing, I looked at their business, their presentation, their investor presentation.

What's interesting is the media is really moving more towards e-commerce and affiliate deals as opposed to being straight advertising.

Advertising is just a terrible business or ad-supported media is a very difficult business.

Where they're moving is where a lot of media players are moving, and that is they're going vertical with their content and either doing affiliate deals.

It's just like you write an article on cookware and they introduce their own cookware line or they just have an affiliate deal with Amazon or they're going vertical into these businesses.

So

my online ed startup, Section 4, we use all our media to drive business to try and get signups for our online ed courses.

Because the reality is an ad-supported media doesn't work, but affiliate or vertical-based media does work.

And I think that's where BuzzFeed's headed.

Yeah, it's interesting because, you know, Los Angeles Times, Patrick, I can't pronounce the same correctly, but the owner and the new editor, Kevin Merritto, were talking about it, not as a newspaper, but like a whole media conglomerate company, an entertainment company.

It's just interesting.

And the other thing is the buying of complex, which is interesting.

They obviously got some sort of pipe that they could do this, which is the money they get also into the SPAC.

But acquiring things when you're doing these SPACs to try to get stronger is one way of doing it, right?

You have to bulk up and stuff like that.

So what does it say about the popularity of SPACs?

What do you think?

Well,

here's the thing.

There's a massive amount of capital out there trying to find a target.

And the adult in the room, as you brought it up, is the pipe, because typically you raise around $300 million in equity.

And if you're trying to get a billion and a half dollar deal done, you have to show up with deaf financing or state-blown financing in the form of the pipe.

And they've been the adults in the room saying, no, this company isn't worth that.

We're not going to do the pipe, but a public currency.

And then you go to Complex, which also struck me as an e-commerce company masquerading as a media company

again around e-commerce.

Merchandise.

And there's a lot of merch on that site.

But if they can get out and have a public currency, which is very attractive to targets, you know, this is going to be a consolidation play.

I think there's a lot of broken digital media companies out there.

So what would they buy?

What would they buy next?

Complex is one.

Well, if we don't get out in the next six months, they'll buy Vox.

That's the bottom line.

You're either going to consolidate or you're consolidate E.

I mean,

BuzzFeed does about $350 million in revenue, $30 million in EBITDA.

They say a billion and a half dollar.

It'll be very interesting to see how this trades billion and half dollar valuation.

That's 50 times EBITDA, which is a lot for a media company.

It's five times revs,

which isn't a lot on revs, but usually media companies are much more profitable than this.

So it'll be just very interesting to see how this

stock trades.

So I know with Vox,

we have lower revenue numbers, but we're more profitable.

And it'll be interesting to see how the market compares and contrasts it to which it likes more.

Does it like bigger revenue,

lower profit margins, or does it like a smaller, more or less available?

It's always been a story between the two companies, honestly.

But traditional media typically looks more like Vox, where it's very profitable.

Yeah.

Anyway, what do you think?

What are your thoughts on BuzzFeed?

I think you're right.

I don't think it'll buy Vox.

I don't think that's they've been sort of neck and necking it.

BuzzFeed, obviously bigger for a long time, but that valuation is quite a lot lower than

in the salad days, including the same thing with Vox, I'm guessing.

So

what's interesting is who moves next?

I would assume Vox will move next.

There's a couple other companies that could, but they're the next one sort of in line

to go or get, you know, Axios get

the selling of that.

That's their move.

Like it's, it's all consolidating and it would be interesting.

What would be an interesting acquisition for Vox?

Let's let's give Jim Bankoff some advice.

I don't know.

First off,

Vox is going to kick BuzzFeed's ass.

I mean, just one question.

How many at BuzzFeed, how many Olympic hopefuls and synchronized swimming do they have, Kara?

How many?

How many?

You know, one of their high-profile reporters, Ryan Mack, just went to the New York Times, which is interesting.

I would say, there's a lot of interesting media companies out there for Vox, much sort of the fancier ones that are around.

There's some fancy ones that could be

who are they?

It feels to me like podcasting is where we've kind of gotten a ton of traction I mean I see our numbers we're ridiculously profitable yeah

you know Atlantic things like that there's a billionaire

you think Lauren Powell Jobs is gonna sell the Atlantic no maybe go public I don't know I'm just trying there's lots of things there's there's things like that there's a lot of media properties like that that are interesting obviously I think the acquisition of New York magazine was interesting for Vox Media

where we are and it uh and we were attracted to it right we were attracted to the quality and stuff so anyway it's an interesting time for all these companies but things are going to be happening we'll see if uh box does a spack but they would be among the others and we'll see where where they go where all of these go it'll be an interesting ipo for sure the numbers were you're right i was like wow that doesn't make that's not as much revenue as i thought and it's also not as much uh profit in any case it's a very interesting move and we will see what happens scott but we will just continue to make fantastically profitable things for them and we'll see where that goes um speaking of media you're lester holt I'm Katie Couric.

Synchronized skating.

Wait, no, wait.

I'm going to bring Katie Holt as a co-host while you're away.

By the way, Scott's going away for August, and we're going to have to think of

people a break.

Lester Holt, he'd be awesome.

Lester Holt?

Okay, all right.

I heard Ando was going to your other thing.

You didn't bring Ando over here, did you?

And you give me a hard time for all my famous people I bring over to the other podcast that I'm cheating on you with.

I've just some relationships are just so special.

Ando was supposed to come over here, and he did not.

Except I could ask him questions about your relationship and it didn't.

Well, I called in, I called in a favor because he's a very close, close friend.

Not true.

Not true.

Just saying.

But anyways.

Just you're whining.

I'm not going to put up with any of your whining.

Yeah, meanwhile, you bring on Tim Cook.

Don't even go there.

Don't even go here.

You know what?

Ando, I'm just saying.

All right.

Let's bring on our friend of Pivot, who's someone I've actually known a long time.

Yousu Medi is the corporate vice president of modern life search and devices at Microsoft.

I've known him for a long time.

Scott is already giving him a hard time.

He's chuck-todding him, as we like to say here at Chivon.

Todd, Yusuf, how are you doing?

How's it going?

I'm doing great, Kara.

It's been a long time.

It's great to see you.

And

it's nice to be talking to you again.

I know.

So tell us, what have you been doing?

Just so you know, Scott, Yusuf and I go way back.

He was running, we ran everything at Microsoft, right?

You ran their media stuff.

You ran what else?

Oh, I like to joke.

I'm sort of like the Forrest Gump of Microsoft.

You know, know, I've been here for a while and how Tom Hanks kind of haplessly wanders into all the fun things that are going on.

I've been on Windows in the early days, Internet Explorer when we started getting into that.

And then later, MSN started Bing, launched Xbox One, Surface Pro,

and now it's all come back together.

Now it's all back together with Windows 11.

Windows 11.

Yeah.

All right.

So interesting.

So how is that Surface Pro?

How is the big-ass table doing, Yusuf?

Well, I don't know about the table, but the Surface Studio Studio is the one and the hub those are doing those are doing great I mean I love those products they're they're niche products but for those people who use them they love them I love that big ass table anyway let's talk about Windows 11 and Scott will have a whole bunch of questions but you just introduced it Sacha did it so talk about what does it mean for for app makers and how are you looking at it just give us and don't try not to do talking points but one of the things I noticed was Sacha took a whack at Apple for a second there with the App Store but talk a little bit about Windows 11 Sure.

You know,

the whole genesis of Windows 11 really is trying to learn from all the things we've had over the pandemic, over the last 18 months, where the PC has become, you know, again, central in our lives for video conferencing, for teaching our kids, for doing hybrid work.

And what we've tried to do is improve the platform and improve the user experience so that you can do new things, whether that's text message off your desktop or video conference call or play richer games.

And if you're a creator or a a developer,

you know, change the policies so that you can have more success on Windows as a platform and a creator.

We talked a little bit about, for example,

on the store, Saty announced the fact that we've got a new store.

One of the things we're doing is we're changing the fees in the store so that as a developer, you can keep more of the revenue.

So whereas other platforms, you keep 30% on our platform.

Other platforms.

Other platforms.

Who are you talking about, user?

Who are you talking about, user?

A variety of other app stores and

ad platforms.

And then the other thing you can do that's unique is if you bring your own commerce engine, you keep all of the revenue.

That's a pretty unique thing.

So if you're an app developer, if you like Adobe, Creative Cloud, you want to sell subscriptions, you can do that on Windows 11, and you keep all of the revenue versus give up 30%.

Okay, Scott, you must have a question here.

Yeah, so nice to meet you, Yusuf.

You've had a front row seat in terms of technology over the last, I don't know, 20, 30 years.

Give us what technology you think is most underhyped that we're not talking enough about

that you think is going to have a bigger impact.

And also, and the more interesting one, name a technology you think is overhyped.

Yeah,

good questions there.

I wonder if it can be overhyped and underhyped at the same time, but I definitely think mixed reality is going to be

the next major wave of computing.

It'll change gaming.

It's going to change how devices, I know you were talking with Evan Spiegel recently on spectacles, HoloLens.

I think that is a profound change to computing and how you connect, how you talk with people, how you do hybrid work.

I think that'll be a pretty big change.

And the other one I think that is probably coming a lot is quantum computing.

I think quantum and its ability to unlock the next level of algorithmic AI machine learning will be pretty profound.

Those are the two I would say that are out there that I think will have big impact on computing.

What about overhyped?

What about overhyped?

What's like space, AI, wearables?

What do you think is probably not

going to live up to the hope?

In terms of, let's see, that's a good one.

I think that,

I mean, I would say space is probably one where we're going to put a lot of money out there for a long, long time.

And I don't know if it'll get the returns.

We could spend some of that money more effectively in the near term to improve the planet we're on.

But look, I know a lot of people have excitement and passion for it.

And

it's a thing that gets people lit up.

Is it okay if I have another question?

Oh, yeah, go ahead.

Go ahead, Scott.

I get the sense Yusuf and I are bonding.

I do.

I see.

I get the sense we're bonding.

I'm going to bond with Yusuf.

Go ahead.

So, look,

people talk about great turnarounds.

They talk about Apple.

They talk about IBM.

I think Microsoft,

it never did poorly, but it kind of went flat for a good eight or 10 years, at least at stock price.

And then all of a sudden, just this unbelievable, I don't know if you call it renaissance or most valuable company in the world for a brief time last year and is doing incredibly well.

If you tried to distill down the secret sauce or the culture of Microsoft, that you think if you had to point to one thing about the culture that has created this, the most valuable company in the world, or

one of the top two or three in the last, it's really been over the last five or seven years it seems like it's really kind of had a resurgence what would you point to in the culture of the people

well i think the big one scott is um and it's really under satya's you know sort of satya's tutelage now as ceo was a move from a kind of know-it-all culture to a learn it all culture and it came about pretty quiet, but pretty fast, right from the get-go.

He just started

embodying it in all of the meetings and all of the product reviews where he would come in and he would just start asking questions hey how are we doing this why is this working you know what do we need to learn if something went wrong he'd say what we learn he he had a very much a kind of much more of an open inclusive culture much more about accessibility and his you know sensibility of where to focus and saying look it can't just be about you know the broad business we're trying to drive how are we helping individual people it took a little while but that changed the other part that changed on it was, you know, Microsoft's a very competitive place, a lot of smart people, a lot of people trying to be, you know, the best at what they do.

And he instilled a, we're all going to work together.

We're all going to work on making others great, and we're going to build on the ideas of others.

Two things that historically is not something that you do a lot in tech companies, right?

There's a lot of not invented here.

I'm going to rewrite the thing that you did.

He would push constantly against that.

If someone said something great, use that code, use that idea, build on top.

And I think that's that's changed the culture.

And so the level of innovation,

the culture, how we approach new problems, I mean, it's night and day.

It's night and day.

So Yusuf, when you're thinking, speaking of night and day, Windows 11, now Windows used to be this sort of scary

operating system to, you know, attracting the attention of government, attracting the attention of the press and everything else.

And now when you're introducing this, you're talking about open, you're talking about freedom, you're like, free us from the platforms, which were Google and Apple, essentially.

When you look at how Windows fits into the ecosystem now,

it's not dominant for sure.

How do you look at what Windows is going forward?

Where does it sit in the stack, I guess?

Yeah, it's a great question.

I'll say something, and maybe this will sound a little corny to you, Carrie.

Maybe you'll give me some grief on it.

But I think one of the things that we've prided on with Windows is that

it is this platform for creation.

Sasha talked about it being the platform for platform creators and a stage for creation.

You know, our aspiration is that anyone can come and write a great new app, a great new service, and they can go on and become a platform, and maybe that platform becomes bigger than Windows.

And it's kind of good to go back through history and realize, look, Google happened on Windows.

You know, the ads platform that they run, which is just dominant and it's hugely successful.

Facebook.

you know, grew up on Windows.

Now it's big on mobile, but it started on the PC.

You know, Amazon and all of these things have become the platforms of their own right.

And they started on Windows, and in some ways they're bigger than Windows.

And I think our aspiration is that continues to happen, but that we are the best platform.

We are the place that creators do want to come first.

And that's kind of our goal and

our kind of our desire.

It's also a particularly good message right now with regulatory scrutiny.

Microsoft seems to have gotten out of quite a bit of it, including some of this new antitrust legislation.

It's focused on mobile.

It's focused on a lot of things where Microsoft had a big miss in the mobile space with its phone.

How do you look at how you all stand in terms of regulation?

You're just as big.

You're the second $2 trillion company.

You're very powerful in your sectors, whether it's cloud or wherever, gaming and different places.

How has Microsoft escaped that?

And actually,

you were front and center of regulatory scrutiny and now you're seen as not that.

How do you look at that?

And what, you know, is that the, are there things to be worried about with Microsoft we feel very much that look we're in the mix and we're in the conversation on all these on all these things we're not in any way sort of immune from review I think the role of big tech is being asked and those questions are rightly asked whether it's what's the role of responsible AI to you know, is big tech fostering the appropriate amount of innovation.

And look, we're part of that process.

And so we have a role to play.

And, you know, probably the only difference is that we've gone through this cycle.

You know, we've been through it where we had regulatory review.

We had to kind of work through all that process.

We had to take painful change, as I think was talked about in the past.

And I think we've gotten to the other side.

And we know the benefits of

working with the government, working with regulators, and delivering on these things because it's the right thing to do.

And so I don't think we're immune from things that people are talking about, but I do feel we're down the path.

Scott?

Along those lines, do you think that we need more stringent antitrust?

The thing I do think, let me answer it this way.

I feel like we need more competition.

We need more competition in all parts of the industry.

And so I know Brad talked about, hey, we'd love to see more competition and more choice on iPhone with search.

And we think that would be good for everyone.

Obviously, it'd be good for Microsoft.

So there's no question about that.

But I think it'd be good for everyone.

We think we'd love to see more competition in app stores.

We'd love to be able to see people be able to bring different types of capabilities to the platform.

And so, you you know, we need that.

How you go about that, I'm less expert, but the fact that we need it, we absolutely believe we need that.

We need more competition everywhere.

So, I'm going to pivot over to the game space.

One of the areas you've worked on is Xbox, obviously.

Now, one of the things Microsoft is doing is much more in the cloud gaming

and

different aspects of gaming.

Obviously, you still have Xbox itself.

Where do you, this has been a big priority for the company.

You've bought things.

Where is it going?

Do you see yourself buying more?

Could you buy Epic, for example?

Where do you see, where's the priority there?

Well, we look at gaming as a company as probably

one of our

most exciting growth areas.

We think that, as you know, gaming is the fastest growing segment of entertainment.

It's growing faster than movies, music, TV, you name it.

And

it's growing in such a rapid, rapid way.

When you look at the market, we think there's 3 billion gamers out there on the planet i mean a huge part of the population it's a 200 billion dollar tam and as i said it's growing faster and right now the gaming you know world has been segmented into three buckets there's console gaming pc gaming and casual tablet phone gaming and those have all been distinct we're we want to we want to break that apart we want to bring those together we want you to be able to game with the people you want on the devices you want, you know, from wherever you want.

And with Xbox Game Pass and with this new XCloud game streaming service, we think we can bring that to bear and have that work.

And you're starting to see some of that now with the announcements we've made that

27 of the 30 games we announced at E3, you'll be able to play on the PC and they'll be in the Game Pass.

So you'll be able to play them on PC and console.

We think that's a big opportunity.

Does that mean consoles don't matter anymore?

No, no, consoles absolutely still matter.

And for many people who love console gaming, it will be the most immersive, rich place to play.

So there's no doubt doubt about that.

But we do think this idea that you can game on any device and you can game on your PC and on your console, you know, a big part of where we think the innovation goes is it's less about the hardware and more about the user experience, more about the gaming community, Xbox Live as we have it, and the actual games, the content studios.

And as you mentioned, Kara,

we've been excited to welcome folks like Zenimax and Bethesda and a bunch of other gaming studios now.

We've really grown the gaming studios at Microsoft to bring these great games for people.

Scott?

So, Yusuf, you can't get to the

point you're at of Microsoft.

You're a good manager, for lack of a better term.

When you look at other companies, what company would you argue is the best managed company?

Not necessarily the most successful, but has the best culture, best management

outside of Microsoft, obviously.

Let me think about that one.

And I know you're a professor here at

a university, so I feel like I'm getting quizzed here.

Let me think about who would be a good managed company.

You know,

I don't, I would say that.

Who else would you want to work for?

If you were going to leave Microsoft, what company would you want to join?

God, that would be good.

That's a good one, too.

You know, I myself,

this is not necessarily why I think it's a better game, but I love just the creation of stories.

I love the way Pixar and, you know, movies are created.

I love what they've done to tell stories, but use use technology and animation to tell them in much, much richer ways.

So I'm a big fan of that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Disney?

You just asked.

Yeah, Disney.

Yeah.

Disney.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

I have one final question.

Scott may have one more.

So this pandemic, as we're moving through it, all the tech companies have done well.

You've had this massive growth with Teams and different things and people, as you were saying, using

Windows and everything else.

How do you, what do you see coming next?

What is happening post-pandemic, both for Microsoft as a company in terms of presence, you know, whether you're going to do a hybrid system or in person or remote?

And then what do you think the big important things going forward are going to be for tech in general?

They've done great in the pandemic, and so was Microsoft.

I hate to say that, but it's fair.

It's a fair assessment of how you all have done.

Yeah, so I think that we very much envision a hybrid work environment going forward.

We think that, you know, it was a very painful period with the pandemic, but we've learned some important things.

The benefit of being able to have meetings where meetings are more inclusive, because in the Teams window, for example, anyone can ask a question.

People can chat.

You can have sort of background conversations.

That's a fabulous thing that we learned from hybrid.

The ability to be able to be more informal, be able to kind of blend work and life.

We think that's a super powerful thing.

I think that's going to continue forward.

The software that we will build, the services we will build are going to be built with that in mind so that when you roam from device to device, your files can roam with you automatically.

When you undock your Windows tablet and you connect it to a big screen, all of the state of what you were doing in the big screen can go small and it could go big again.

We're going to do a lot of work in that software to enable that hybrid environment.

I think that is a big part of the future of where we'll go.

And not just in technology, but in that inclusivity in terms of how we're bringing different people into the conversation.

We think that's a big part of where we'll go.

And then over time, the thing that we talked about, HoloLens, the ability to work remotely, but be present, whether someone's getting dialed in virtually or in an augmented way.

I think that's a huge part of the future of where not only work will go, but gaming will go and

social networking, social media.

HoloLens.

Finally, it will be its day.

Scott, last question.

What do you think is the biggest challenge facing America right now?

Do you think it's climate change?

Do you think it's income inequality?

Do you think it's tech overrunning DC?

If you were

just as a citizen, what are you most concerned about?

I'm most concerned about our educational system and

how we're preparing kids and students to learn and to grow.

When I look at sort of other countries, I think they're far ahead in terms of how they're, you know, helping students learn, how that curriculum.

And I feel that, you know, we need to do a lot more to help our kids really, you know, get their brains around all of the things that are happening, not just in technology and in STEM, but just broadly through citizenship.

And so I think education is an area where I feel I would love to see us as a country do more.

All right, Yusuf, it's good talking to you.

Thank you for coming on.

Good luck with Windows 11.

Are you ever going to buy a phone company?

Do you think?

Do you feel like you all need to have one?

You've got, you know, your consoles, you've got your operating system on PCs.

Do you all need a phone?

I think right now our focus is really to make our devices, our software and services work great with other phones.

I think there's a lot more we can do there.

I heard Motorola's for sale.

I haven't had Motorola's for sale.

They've been down that road.

Remember Nokia?

You know what?

I liked the Microsoft phone.

I did.

I thought that was a good phone.

It just was too late.

That's the idea.

Yeah, I agree with you, Kara.

We were late.

It was a good phone.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Do you remember when Bomber used to say, put down those iPhones?

He would scream at people.

Yeah.

It's early, but have you tried a Surface Duo yet?

No, but

I shall.

Perhaps I shall.

By the way,

no one should know this, but Yusuf actually had an iPhone when you're not supposed to over there at Microsoft.

He snuck one, as I recall.

Yusuf.

I did.

He's a rebel.

I'm a rebel.

He's a rebel.

No, he's not.

Anyway, Yusuf, thank you so much.

Nice meeting you, Yusuf.

Good luck.

Nice to meet you, Scott.

Thank you, Kara.

Great to talk to you.

Okay, Scott, one more quick break.

We'll be back for Wins and Fails.

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Okay, Scott, wins and fails.

I'm going to go first.

Fast and Furious 9 is doing well at the box office.

I am going to go see it this week, I think.

Collecting $70 million over the weekend in the United States.

It's obviously, I love all the Fast and Furiouses.

Good.

I think movies like this will do well at physical movie theaters.

I would agree.

I just still think it's a small business and it will only be these big mega blockers.

I don't think people are going to make it a, I mean, people like work doing their stuff at home just like they do with work, but I'm glad to see these mega ones work really well in physical spaces.

You heading to Fast and Furious Nine and your Korea, your Kia Sorento, and your Nokia phone sends a lot of mixed signals.

It's very hard to understand what you are trying to say to the world

with your children.

Because I'm complex.

You're unexpected.

I had a minivan when I was in my 20s, Scott.

I'm not even going to go into it, but I have a lot of vanilla.

A minivan in your 20s.

Before I had my 4,000 children, yes, indeed, I did.

I had a minivan by myself.

I used to like pushing the button and saying, get in to people.

That's right.

That's interesting.

I'm a complex person.

I contain multitudes, Scott Galloway.

You'll find out.

We're going out in the Sorrento.

You and I are going to

play some

Katie Perry, perhaps some Nikki Minaj, and we are going to have some good times together.

All right.

What's your, that is my win is that it's your name.

Introduce me to the hot one from the All-Ward.

What's her name again?

I forgot her name.

Jennifer Beals.

Perhaps.

Jennifer Beals.

Probably not.

I'm inviting her to code, so I will see if she will speak to you, but you need to not stalk her in anything.

Code's on fire.

Am I speaking out of sight?

Scott Sachin is sold out.

Yeah, we're selling it out.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Congratulations on that.

Back.

The United States is.

How much of that is people just want to get out?

That's exactly right.

And it's also a good program.

We have a lot of good stuff going on.

The last day is all the digital body.

We're going to do things too, Scott.

We're going to, We're going to experiment on this psychic.

There's going to be psychedelics.

There might be some marijuana.

It's going to be good.

It's going to be good.

All right, Scott.

What is your wins and fails?

I've heard that stuff is good.

I wouldn't know, but I've heard it's pretty good.

Okay,

my win is BuzzFeed.

They've been around 15 years.

I think they've persevered.

I think it's nice to have there really haven't been many media IPOs.

I'm trying to think like, what, snap?

I mean, it just, it's been kind of a desert.

So

I think it's great.

I hope they get out.

I hope the stock trades well.

And good for them.

They've been around 15 years.

Nice.

Yeah, right.

Good for them.

Entrepreneurs.

They seem like smart people.

They pivoted a couple of times.

So good for them.

My fail

is sort of what I would call, you know, this isn't us.

America is supposed to have the best airports in the world,

the best CDC in the world.

When hurricanes happen, we rescue our citizens.

We don't, you know,

put them in stadiums.

And our buildings don't pancake.

And it just, America is less American right now than I think it's been in a long time.

And we need to stop this,

what I call reallocation of effort and capital and love.

from the middle class in America and our infrastructure to corporations and the wealthy.

And I know that sounds like a class warfare, but

rich people aren't getting pancaked.

Rich people get the vaccine.

Rich people,

corporations are doing just fine.

It's America and the pillars.

We just don't seem to want to pay for anything anymore because the people who control the government can opt out of roads.

They can opt out of health concerns.

So it strikes me that the tragedy in Florida, I think, is another example, a very stark example of how America is becoming less American we make forward-leaning investments in our bridges in our tunnels in our airports and we stop doing that and we need to we need to start again anyways I hope I really hope this pushes the infrastructure bill over the finish line because you go to other countries now and you fly into China and you see

I think it will but again well that used to be us right that used to be us that's true but I got to say say

climate change still.

I don't care.

Right now, Pacific Northwest, speaking of Microsoft, where Microsoft is located, expected to reach 114 degrees in Portland, Oregon.

That is craziness.

114 degrees.

114 degrees.

108, 114, Seattle, all of these places, which really, it's crazy what's going on.

It may be down, but you know, 102 degrees on Saturday at Seattle-Tacoma International Airport, setting a record, a record.

And that means wildfires, that means everything else.

And so, you know, it's fascinating because they don't have air conditioners in Seattle.

Same thing with San Francisco.

I didn't have it.

I'm going to have to probably buy an air conditioner for my house there because it's these excessive heat warnings for Washington, Oregon, California, Idaho, Nevada.

These are the new normals, and we have to think about it.

Biggest fail of the human race is not to address this one really, in a really significant way.

So anyway, that is the show, Scott.

We'll be back Friday for more.

Go to nymag.com nymag.com slash pivot to submit your question for the Pivot podcast.

The link is also our show notes.

Scott, you Olympian, read us out.

Olympic Hopeful, Scott Galloway.

Why not, right?

Why not?

Today's show is produced by Rebecca Sinana, Senny Andrew Todd.

Engineered this episode.

Thanks also to Drew Burrows.

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We'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business.

Silver medalists and synchronized swimming, fantastic legs.