Overtime – Episode #604: Danny Strong, James Kirchick, Krystal Ball

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Welcome to an HBO podcast from the HBO Late Night Series, Real Time with Bill Ma.

Okay.

We're back on over time.

Okay, here are the questions.

Jamie, in your new book, you write that Ronald Reagan's administration proved to be the gayest of any presidential administration yet.

Why is that?

Just the sheer number of gay people working in it.

Did he know?

Well,

actually one of the big scoops in the book was that in 1980, three weeks before the Republican National Convention, it was brought to the attention of Ben Bradley, who was at the time the editor of the Washington Post, the allegation that Ronald Reagan was being controlled, and I'm not lying here, that he was being controlled by a homosexual network of right-wing anti-communist gays.

It could be.

They were controlling him as a Manchurian candidate.

And the Washington Post investigated this.

They sent out Bob Woodward was one of the reporters, several other reporters, they investigated it.

And they did find that there were some gay men working for Reagan, but the notion that this was some sort of conspiratorial

plot.

When the log cabin Republicans started?

It sort of started two years earlier, actually, in California, when there was a ballot initiative to ban gay school teachers.

And Reagan actually came out against it, and Reagan was really decisive in defeating it, actually, in 1978.

And log cabin Republicans, of course, refers to Lincoln,

who was gender fluid.

I mean, there's rumors.

He shared a bed with a man for several years on the American frontier, which was not that unusual in the 19th century.

Although, if you read the letters that he exchanged with this guy, they're pretty hot and heavy.

Right.

He also went to the Tawneys every year.

What's the matter?

Come on.

Crystal, CNN's new boss wants the network to steer away from sensational hyper-partisan coverage.

Yes, I saw that.

CNN,

you can't refer to the election as the big lie or Trump's big lie as the big lie.

Which again, see, I mean, I'm totally on the page of it was the big lie, but I think that's the right thing.

I mean,

now you're MSNBC,

even though it's sort of like Jack Del Rio.

He's totally wrong, but I defend his right to be wrong.

Okay.

Do you think CNN will actually stick with this new plan?

No.

I mean, they actually.

Listen,

my issue isn't actually with opinion journalism.

If you're up front about what your lens is, what you're

no problem with that whatsoever.

I do have a problem when it blinds you to facts and honesty.

And I think both CNN and MSNBC, their maximalist ideas in terms of Russia gate, didn't end up working.

So that's the issue I have there.

Will it work?

No.

Because ultimately, what's going to happen?

Trump's going to come back.

Guess what's going to rate?

The people who go the furthest in on Trump, that's what's going to get the best ratings.

This is a business.

It's a business model.

I think it's an abhorrent one that leads to a disaster for America.

I think it's a cancer on society, all of the cable networks.

But ultimately, those are the incentives they respond to.

So, no, I don't think it's a problem.

So, what do you mean by maximalist ideas about Russia?

Like the P-tape stuff, you know, MSNBC.

Steel dossier.

MSNBC floating that he's been a Russian asset since 1985.

All that sort of stuff.

I mean, the Senate Intelligence Committee, which is controlled by Republicans, said that Trump's involvement with Russia was a grave national security threat.

Okay, but that's not the same as saying Putin has a P-tape and servers are bouncing back and forth.

P-tape was always lurid, and who knows?

I mean,

that is.

If you don't like that one, then let's talk about the lab league and the idea of where the coronavirus came from, and the fact that these outlets said that not only could it, no way could it come out of the lab, but that's racist to say so.

That's what I'm saying: I have an issue when your ideology blinds you to the facts.

I have that issue every week on this show.

Yes.

Yes, I don't have an issue with opinion journalism.

But the idea that Russia and Trump were inappropriately intertwined, I mean, his campaign manager, Manafort, was sharing polling information with this guy, Kalimnik, who was

the Mueller Report

found that there was no collusion.

And we were promised this.

We were promised this for three years.

They over-promised.

And it was really, and cable news.

But there wasn't nothing.

There wasn't nothing.

There was something.

Well, there was something.

There wasn't enough.

You know what?

The truth was bad enough with Trump and Russia.

Correct.

But why did they have to embellish it?

You're right.

Why did they have to embellish it?

What he did in public.

Was bad enough.

Right.

It disqualified him for the presidency.

Right.

He said that maybe Crimea should, maybe Russia can keep Crimea.

That to me

was disqualified.

What about siding with Putin?

That, too.

At Helsinki.

Right.

Like, my 17 intelligence agencies tell me one thing

I got to go with you.

Vlad.

It was a disgrace.

But they couldn't.

Just side with America.

Is that a big ask?

The problem with so many people in the media,

they couldn't take that alone.

It had to be this Baroque conspiracy going back to 1987.

He was recruited by the KGB.

I mean, it was just, it was, it was such a scandal, actually, when you look back on it, how we were deluded by this.

Well, we were sold.

But the reality was we're not the same.

I don't think anyone's going to be able to do it.

But since he doesn't care about, is it clinical narcissists?

Our standard does not fall.

I know,

but the idea that he would do do that is completely believable.

And he would have done it.

Well, that's why people bought it.

But if you're in the news business, I mean, that's like, I think cable news is such a cancer is because ultimately,

it is just about the ratings.

They don't care they got it wrong.

They're never going to correct the issues in their own race.

They agree with them.

So is that going to change with the new boss?

No.

And it's just about saying the things that make your audience go,

yes, I already believe that.

Thank you for reinforcing what I believe.

And never letting anything outside of the bubble in.

And that's Fox News, that's MSNBC.

That's it.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Okay.

Danny, if you could write a screenplay about the 2020 election.

Okay, so, right.

I was going to ask you this.

Game change.

Okay.

That was about 2008 and Sarah Palin.

Sure.

That was great.

Loved that.

My boy Woody Harrelson was in that one.

Great guy.

Great guy.

Great actor.

Okay.

The other one you did, recount, was about the 2000 election.

Mm-hmm.

So yeah, you're kind of due for writing.

A new election movie.

So this question is what would you title it and are you thinking about doing that?

We got to do a Romney Obama first though.

That's the real action.

Romney.

Now there's that.

That's an exciting election movie.

I think that

yeah, I mean look

the problem with doing a Trump movie because the guy who directed those two movies, Jay Roach and I, have been talking about it for years, is every day is crazier than the day before.

Yes.

Right?

So

how do you turn that into a a piece of drama that has something to say that doesn't become

irrelevant the day after you start writing it?

Right, and he could be president again.

And then there's a new movie.

And then put you in Guantanamo Bay for making it that.

Exactly.

Thank you, everybody.

I appreciate you coming.

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