Ep. #419: Matt Schlapp, Timothy Snyder

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Welcome to an HBO podcast from the HBO Late Night Series, Real Time with Bill Ma.

Start the clock.

Oh, sit, please.

Okay.

Thank you very much.

All right, all right, we've gone through our little ritual.

Please, I

thank you, ladies and gentlemen.

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Please, please, you're

You're so transparent.

I know why you're happy, because Republicans...

Republicans pulled their repeal of Obamacare, which means you will be able to continue taking whatever drugs you're on right now.

And I know you're on drugs.

I know I am.

But isn't this amazing?

I mean, for seven years, this is all Republicans live to do:

was repeal and replace Obama.

It's all they talked about, it's all they voted on.

It's like the girl of your dreams finally saying, okay, take me to bed.

And then you get her there and

oh, this looks bad for Trump.

No,

it does.

You know how Putin feels about failure.

That's right.

But no, this health care thing went down because of the Freedom Caucus, that's the artist formerly known as the Tea Party.

In Congress, Paul Ryan

wrote a health care bill that somehow covered fewer people than just repealing Obamacare

and replaced it with nothing and it still wasn't good enough for the Freedom Caucus.

It's like if you wrote a highway bill that made all the bridges fall down

and they said, yeah, but that only kills drivers.

What about people at home?

I mean

It is amazing what happened during the week, that the Freedom Caucus kept taking away more things,

more health care benefits, to make it more attractive to psychopaths.

In the last version,

they had cut hospitalization, doctor visits, maternity, mental health, lab tests, prescriptions, emergency room visits.

Their version of health care was: if you like your doctor, go fuck yourself.

And the Freedom Caucus

still wouldn't go along with it.

Speaking for them, Congressman Ted Yoho said, yes?

No,

that's all on him.

That's his name.

This is his quote.

He said it would still, quote, leave a skeleton for the Affordable Care Act.

And he will not stand any health care plan that leaves America with the skeleton.

He's a veterinarian.

I mean a veterinarian, which means his voters think he was in the Army.

You know,

Republicans just have to admit crafting legislation is just not your thing.

Calling into talk radio and screaming about Mexicans, yes.

Posting photoshops of Hillary with devil horns, yes.

Naming buildings after Reagan, of course.

Secret gay sex at highway rest stops, yes.

But not legislation.

But, you know, there was so much news this week.

This was only the end of the week, the healthcare thing.

But besides Trump care, there was the Supreme Court hearings we had.

There was the Russia news.

We're burying the lead with that.

The Keystone pipeline got okayed today.

There was so much news.

I'm going nuts trying to keep up.

I've got the hearings on TV, I've got the president on Twitter, I got Kelly Ann on the microwave.

Now, did you watch those hearings with the nominee Neil Gorsuch for the Supreme Court?

This is a guy, Neil Gorsuch.

He interprets the Constitution as the framers intended when they wrote it 226 years ago, which they say makes him an originalist, also Amish.

Yeah, that's what the court needs.

Another guy who says, What would slaveholders do?

But here's our real descent into the Banana Republic.

Ivanka, you know, Ivanka Trump, his beautiful daughter wife, Ivanka.

This week, she was given an office right there in the West Wing and security clearance to see classified information.

She will not be paid a salary because she's a woman.

But in lieu of a paycheck, she worked at a deal where the nuclear codes will now be carried in a purse from the Ivanka collection.

But you know what?

This is how crazy fucked up we are in this country.

This is how crazy it's gotten.

I'm glad she's there.

Yes, this is Banana Republic stuff, but next to him, I'm glad Ivanka is there to talk.

It's like when Janet Jackson used to visit the Neverland Ranch and talk to Michael.

All right, we've got a great show.

Chris Hayes, Louise Mensch, and Max Brooks are here, and a little later I'll be speaking with Yale history professor Timothy Snyder.

But first up, he's a columnist for the Hill and the chairman of the American Conservative Union.

I know you are all members.

Please welcome, please welcome Matt Schlapp.

Matt!

Thank you.

Hey, Chris, how are you doing?

Thank you for being here.

Well,

I really want to thank you for being here.

I mean, I have been in your position where you have to come to a place

where the audience is not with you.

It's not.

But it was that church?

Can I leave now?

I think I did good.

No, no, you did good.

Okay.

But I, so let's try to talk in a way,

not because I know we're from different sides of the aisle.

You're a Trump supporter.

I am not.

And start with what we agree with.

I think you would agree.

that you're not blind to why a lot of people are freaking out about him, right?

No.

Great.

See?

We're starting already.

Okay.

And that's because, for example, the Time magazine came out today.

I read it.

Okay, and the title was, Is Truth Dead?

Right.

And that's because of him, that we're asking that question.

Do you think that that's fair, that we ask that question because of Donald Trump?

I think everything's fair.

And I think what people who fear Donald Trump want to know is, you know, is he full of a little bullshit sometimes and a little bit of hype?

Or is there something else there that you worry about a little more?

And I would say, as a Trump supporter, that I actually think it is part of someone who's not been involved in politics, who's come into the system, has had amazing success in a very short period of time.

No.

Yes, he has.

What success has he had?

He became the president.

Okay.

He had political success.

Political success.

Yes.

That's different.

Yes, he fooled people.

Okay.

All right.

Let's stay on what we agree with.

Let me read what the Wall Street Journal, not exactly a liberal publication, said.

If President Trump announces that North Korea launched a missile that landed within 100 miles of Hawaii, would most Americans believe him?

We're not sure.

which speaks to the damage that he's done to the presidency with his endless stream of exaggerations, evidence-free accusations, implausible denials, and other falsehoods.

Look, I think everyone should ask him the tough questions and hold him to account for what he says.

But if he says something that's you think he's a liar on a scale we have never seen before.

No, I don't.

I think he ran against somebody who was a liar on a scale we haven't seen in Donald Trump.

I really do.

I think that one of the reasons Donald Trump is president is because the Clintons didn't really ring true with a lot of people.

You have to agree to that.

I'm talking about a scale we've never seen before.

I'm talking about a different scale.

Like, I see 3 million people who don't exist.

I think President Obama wiretapped me when even Republicans have come out and said that's bullshit.

You don't think that's a different level of lying?

I think that when it comes on the wiretapping charge, quite honestly, there's no evidence for it.

So isn't that a different level of lying?

I think that that was quite an extraordinary tweet.

Is it a different level of lying?

And they're investigating it now.

And I'll tell you this: if they find no.

They're investigating it.

They are.

They're investigating it.

It's a bipartisan investigation.

Okay.

And the FBI is investigating it.

Look, Bill, if they find that there's no proof for what he said, then...

If they find...

See, this is the damage I think he's doing to this country.

The fact that he says something, and then we all have to scramble, not we all, your team has to scramble to pretend that the mad king actually saw a 12-foot bunny on the lawn.

So that you have, I mean,

what we saw was this guy, Devin Nunez.

Now, he's head of, he's the chairman of the intelligence committee.

This was always bipartisan.

This was the one place where bipartisan reigned because

we have a great country in the sense that the intelligence agencies, they're not just there on their own.

They have to share their information.

But we were smart.

We said, not the whole Congress, because they can't keep a secret.

They can't.

Okay, but they've got to tell somebody.

That's right.

So it's the intelligence committee, just six or eight people.

He's head of that.

Okay, so this week, he ran over to the White House with some bullshit that was a nothing burger.

That Trump's name came up on incidental collection, not what Trump said, that he was wired to.

That's right.

And it probably wouldn't have if he didn't have Putin on speed dial.

But can I just bring up this incident?

They were tapping Russians.

That's what they do.

And his name came up.

This is legal.

This is normal.

And he went over there to give Trump cover.

See, this is what I'm talking about.

The fabric of democracy, little tears, the intelligence committee, which was something that was bipartisan.

Now we fucked that up.

Now we ruined that.

And those little tears.

I don't think we've ruined it.

Well,

we haven't done it a lot of help.

They're going to come out with a report.

It'll be a bipartisan report.

And the FBI is going to come out with findings as well.

And maybe we can go back to there is maybe an area here that we do agree on, which is all of this incidental surveillance and all of this, they call it, you know, just the common ordinary thing where they pick up conversations.

I'm troubled by that.

I wasn't always troubled by that.

I'm more troubled by that as I see how extensive this is.

I don't think it's appropriate that they just pick up someone's conversation.

We talk about a wiretap.

They actually don't, wiretapping is a very specialized thing, but the surveillance that goes on by our intelligence agencies is too broad.

Yeah,

you loved it when Bush was president.

Okay, but that's...

No, it's much broader now.

We know because technology can get everywhere.

If we want to have that discussion about whether the spy agency should be doing it, we can.

But that's not what this was about.

Let's not pretend it is.

We're trying to have an agreement on a real basis.

But we do agree on that.

Well, we agree that it should be looked at.

And it should be, they should go after narrow targets.

And by the way, if those targets are members of the Trump team that had inappropriate contact with Russia, I'm absolutely fine with them being investigated.

I think if they didn't do anything wrong, they want their names cleared, but if they did something wrong, the American people should know about that.

But there is a okay.

I'm just saying

there is a problem when the president says some batshit thing that he does because of his ego.

You would admit he's an egoist, right?

An egomaniac.

I think he has a healthy ego.

Health.

I'm talking.

Anyway.

An egomaniac.

I'll use my own words.

What about a narcissist?

Everyone in politics is a narcissist.

Stop.

Names are on everything.

How about a guy who will never admit he's wrong?

Is he that?

Well, okay, so let's go through presidents admitting that they're wrong.

Do presidents tend to admit a lot that they're wrong?

I've seen every president do it.

Give me the examples.

When did Obama admit he was wrong?

Obama admitted he was wrong when he said,

if you want to keep your doctor, you can have your doctor.

Okay,

that's right.

And the website he apologized for.

That's right.

Yes, and the square.

Everybody has a level of humility.

You must see that this guy is different.

I'm just

you're not a person, I do.

I do.

And if the tweets, if what he says is wrong and if the tweets turn out to be wrong, but he ought to have the character to apologize.

And I say, wait till this investigation is concluded.

Comey, let's get to that part of the week.

Because that was all the way back on Monday.

Yes.

Yes.

When the FBI director was out there and he said, yeah, we've been looking into collusion.

Yeah.

between the Trump team and Russia since July.

So, and then CNN reports there actually is collusion.

Adam Schiff, who is the Democrat on the Intelligence Committee, said this was a change this week.

He said, yes,

it's not just we're looking for it, we have it now.

I heard him say that.

If there is such a thing as collusion, that's treason and impeachable.

Would you agree with that?

Incredibly serious, especially.

Is it treason?

It's about the worst thing I've heard of.

I don't know what the legal is.

I think it's probably treasonous.

You know, I think it's terrible.

I bet you if it was a Democrat, it would be definitely treasonous.

Look, it's...

I'm guessing if it was Hillary Bill.

There would be no probably in there.

I'm just guessing.

Let me use my words here.

I think Vladimir Putin's a terrible thug.

I think that we have a huge problem with him.

I don't want to go to war with him, but I am worried about what he is doing.

I think he surveils and tries to influence this country in every way he can.

I think he did try to hack our elections.

And I think if anybody involved in the Trump campaign was involved in that, I think that that is about the most serious crime you could commit.

Well, that would be a crime.

But that would be treason, the most serious crime.

Whatever.

Okay, so we say treason.

Okay.

But let's wait until there's a lot of people who are.

Okay, I agree.

We're not arguing about that, but we're saying if

and indulge me, because that is what the FBI director says he's doing.

That's right.

I'm doing it.

Okay, great.

So if it is, it's treason, and you would say that that's impeachable, right?

Terrible.

Well, the impeachable person.

But, man.

The impeachable.

Hold on.

The impeachment.

You've just strumped a Donald Trump with impeachment.

I'm just saying if I'm saying if someone commits this crime, it's treason, and that's impeachment.

If you commit treason, I think you should be impeached.

Cut that up.

Oh,

all right, baby.

Look, we're getting somewhere.

Is this just water here?

Is that a matter of time?

Yes, is this.

Well, actually,

we switched it on Daryl Issa a few weeks ago, but that's a different story.

All right, last question, because health care went went down this week.

Okay.

The deal maker in charge, who was the greatest deal maker, couldn't get it done.

Are you talking about Paul Ryan?

No, I'm talking about, well, Paul Ryan doesn't even understand what insurance is, but that's another story.

Okay, so let me take,

I know what your argument is.

And there's a side to it, which is,

look, people in this country are too indulged.

They're too entitled.

They get too much from the government.

I would even agree with that.

And by the way, that's some white people too.

That's true.

Some white people.

And some Trump supporters.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

So that's what, you know, when we see what the Freedom Caucus wanted to cut, you're like, well, that's

pretty rough stuff.

You know, you're cutting emergency room visits and stuff like that.

But their view is, look, this is a product like any other.

And you know, you should be able to fend your own way, but then you are going to have to take responsibility for the fact that if this did pass, people would die.

You're okay with that to make that point that people should be on their own.

I'm not okay with the idea that people dying, no, but I think that it would have been smart to get the process started by passing something in the House and coming up with an alternative.

Look, we've been running around the country for seven years saying that we have an Obamacare alternative.

And when it doesn't pass the House, it's hard to say you have an Obamacare alternative.

But do you?

So

I would like this to get started.

Right.

But

do you watch any other shows, news channels besides Fox?

I'm just asking, I'm not being snarky.

No, I'm on MSNBC and CNI and

Chris Matthews all the time.

Okay, but do you watch it?

Yes.

Because like every day they watch Chris Matthews.

They have people

at town hall meetings.

And the theme that comes up over and over again is the people standing up and saying to the congressman, if you do this, you know I will die.

And you can tell they're being real.

I will die.

Yeah, look, this is the reason why healthcare is about the most difficult public policy thing to ever get done.

Hillary Clinton tried it.

It's tough because it's someone's life.

It's someone's life.

Let me try to go here, okay?

So the fact is, is this, do we have to have an alternative?

Absolutely.

You can't run around and just be against things.

You have to talk about what you're for.

And I think one of the reasons why Obamacare was a problem politically for the Democrats, and as you know, they did do a lot of losing over the course of the last eight years.

And one of the central reasons, if you believe polling, is because people were dissatisfied with Obamacare.

It wasn't a bunch of rich people.

It was working-class people who saw their premiums go up and they didn't see their health care getting better.

They felt like the guys who were working felt like they were paying for other people who weren't.

You're right.

Both sides were disingenuous about this.

I said it last week on our show.

The Democrats should have owned the fact this is wealth redistribution.

It is.

Millionaires paid more so poor people could live.

And a lot of middle-class people.

A lot of middle-class people paid more.

A lot of middle-class people paid more.

Yes.

Some of that.

That's true.

And that's why they voted as they voted.

But Trump said today,

he said, you've all heard my speeches.

I never said repeal and replace within 64 days.

Here's what he said.

You're going to end up with great health care for a fraction of the price that's going to take place immediately, okay?

Immediately, fast, quick.

He's a fucking liar.

Isn't that a liar?

No, wait, wait.

Wait, wait.

But I just read it.

He said,

fraction of the cost, great health care, immediately.

But today he said, I never said it would take place within 64 days.

How is that not a lie?

Okay, so Tom Price has been confirmed to be the Secretary of HHS.

Tom Price.

How is that not a lie?

Because

the person he picked to be the Secretary of HHS can make big changes in the health care system.

This is true.

You know that Kathleen Sebilius, a lot of Obamacare, went through.

But he said immediately.

But that is going to happen

But immediately is over.

You mean that he meant that the bill would pass and immediately be implemented immediately?

Okay, thank you.

I tried very hard.

I tried to.

And I'm going to keep trying.

I know you're not a bad guy.

All right.

Matt Slap, give him a hand.

It's not easy.

All right.

Let's meet our

all right.

I tried.

All right.

All right, let's read our plano.

He's a fellow at the Atlantic Council and the Modern War Institute.

Max Brooks is over here.

She is a former member of the British Parliament, who is now a vice president at News Corporation.

He's Louise Mensch.

Hey, Louise.

And he's the host of MSNBC's All In with Chris Hayes, an author of a great new book, A Colony in a Nation.

Chris Hayes.

Okay.

Well, let's see if you guys can succeed where I failed so miserably.

This, you know, every week I say, we can't just talk about Trump.

Fuck that this week.

This is an old Trump week.

I'm going to start.

Ted Liu, who is actually my congressman and a great congressman,

he was supposed to be here.

Max, thank you for filling in at the last minute.

Let me read his statement, because I think this is interesting stuff.

He says, the bombshell revelation that U.S.

officials have information that suggests Trump associates may have colluded with the Russians means we must pause the entire Trump agenda.

We may have

an illegitimate president occupying the White House.

Other than routine government functions, there must be a total and complete shutdown of any agenda item.

In other words, until we figure out what the hell is going on.

We don't know what the hell is going on.

We got to figure it out first.

No one knows.

What do you think about this?

Well, speaking for Ted Liu.

I think he's speaking to a bigger point.

When are we going to get, as liberals, as Democrats, when are we going to get our FDR balls back?

And when are we going to fight?

Because trying to negotiate and hug it out is not working, and it doesn't work.

Because we're not trying to negotiate with people like us, we're negotiating with America's Hamas, and they respect strength and power and force.

And that's it.

Wow.

That's how we begin the panel just comment.

Now, what do you have to say?

Well,

I mean, I...

Top that.

I don't think it strikes me every morning when when I wake up that we're waking up in a country in which the president of the United States is under investigation by the FBI for possible collusion with a foreign adversary, as stated by the director of the FBI in open congressional testimony, which is just bananas.

So what do you do with that, right?

I mean, at some level, I understand what Tedlu's saying, and that seems perfectly reasonable.

But the other thing is that the freight...

The freight train is still moving, right?

Like, normal politics keeps going on.

There is no pause button to hit other than opposition.

Well, he's saying should it.

He's saying, and I agree with that.

You know,

the problem is that human beings, by our nature, we get used to whatever's going on and it becomes normal.

And we cannot allow what is not normal, which is Trump and what he does, to become normal or to think it's normal.

It's easier to just, yeah, I'm tired.

I'm tired of it too.

I'm sick today because of Donald Trump.

I feel your pain.

I feel your pain, but I think Representative Liu is maybe he's a little bit of a scattergun approach here.

You can't shut the whole government down, no matter how much you might like it, they've got the votes.

So I tell the Democrats, pick the battles that count.

One thing I would like to see is Nunez chucked off that committee.

And right now,

although he's,

well, you can, you know what?

Even the wonderful Adam Schiff, who's doing such a great job, and Representative Sworwell, fantastic, but they have not said he's got to go.

They've said this is terrible.

They've said maybe, maybe,

maybe the speaker should do something.

You've got to say, the guy has to go now.

I don't care if he's your mate.

I don't care if he's your buddy.

He's got to go.

He's got to go.

Can I make an

votes?

We're the Republicans.

At least bring the fight to them.

At least bring the fight to them.

This is the committee that's supposed to be investigating treason.

But here's my, let me respond to the idea of normalcy, right?

Because I think this has been a big theme, right?

And it's absolutely true.

It's unbelievable what people will adjust to.

And all the people that have written articles from the perspective of prison.

Prison.

Turkey.

Prison.

People get used to prison.

Yeah, they get used to anything.

I mean, I.

They're not gay.

No, I mean, people go into prison and they go, you know, I wasn't gay, but you know, I was lonely.

And yeah, we did it in the.

Right.

We did it in the naughty place.

Gay for the stay.

Gay for the stay.

So

as I was saying about getting used to things, I mean, we do get used to things, and I think normalizing is a threat.

But the other thing I would say is, in some ways, one of the things we saw this week was normal politics working.

In the sphere of healthcare, that was a very normal kind of thing.

Like, they proposed a bill, the bill was bad, people rebelled.

So, we reach for these abnormal solutions, which is like hit a pause button, which I understand the impulse to.

But the only real victories that have come have been victories through normal politics, fighting on on that terrain.

Okay.

So, but can you tell us anything about the Russia thing?

Because you seem to have a lot of scoops and a lot of information, a lot of sources, and a lot of

bodies buried where we don't know where they are and who they are.

So, what do you know?

And you think this is true?

You think we're going to hear stuff that is absolute evidence of collusion?

Absolutely, but we're going to hear it when Director Comey wants us to hear it and not before, no matter how much everybody else huffs and puffs.

I would say, if you are on Twitter, you should be following the patriotic hacker, the jester, who said two nights ago, before Nunez comes out with this bizarre statement about whatever, wiretapping,

that he has the champagne on ice and it's going to be a bumpy ride for the next few months.

I will say, I think we're a lot further down the line to the end of this than most people think.

I sense panic at the White House.

I sense an absolute

shirt.

They act common for the f.

but here's what I worry about.

I mean Comey, when he

basically threw Hillary under the bus right before the election, we heard that was because he had to do it because he was losing control of his own agency.

They called it Trump landia in certain divisions of the FBI.

Absolutely.

So if Trump Landia is still existing in the FBI, is he going to be able to now turn on Donald Trump, or at at least give the truth, which would be...

People have forgotten that there's a Department of Justice investigation right now into those FBI agents in the field office in New York who are leaking to Flynn, leaking to Giuliani, and the NYPD who are leaking to Eric Prince, brother of Betsy DeVos.

There is a Justice Department investigation that nobody is talking about.

The Justice Department is run by Jeff Session.

Well, not anymore.

I mean, you know, as everything is Russia,

he has to recuse himself from Russia.

This is absolutely part of that.

And I would just say to people, there are two sides to the FBI, right?

There's the criminal field Field Office Division that we're talking about in New York, and there's the Counterintelligence Division that issued the Pfizer warrant, as I reported.

And James Comey, I think, is taking it very seriously indeed.

The reason that he could talk about

hero.

Remember back when with Bush by the hospital bed?

We all love him.

That was why he got...

It was the hospital bed moment that got, that made him the director of the FBI.

That was

the towering integrity.

Is he that guy?

No, here's the thing.

Or is he the Hillary guy?

Is he going to go back to the hospital bed guy?

The thing that everybody says about James Comey, that they say he's very talented, that he inspires tremendous loyalty.

They also say he has just an absolute towering conception of himself.

And I mean, he's literally very tall,

and a certain kind of moral narcissism.

Like he is very into James Comey being the guy, the only straight shooter in a crooked town.

And I think that that was the whole brand that he built for himself out of the hospital bed moment.

It's the reason he was directed to the FBI.

It was the brand that he cloaked himself in when he came out and completely violated every policy to give his own opinions on Hillary Clinton's email practices when he was choosing not to indict her.

It was the reason that he said he wrote the letter.

And so there's some part of me that wonders if the story ends with him trying to find redemption essentially through this investigation.

Okay.

I think he's a good guy.

I'm sorry.

I really do.

I know it's a plot twist.

I know it's hard for the liberals.

I believe he's a good guy.

I want to believe that too.

I've got to cling to something, and I'm still clinging to that tall man.

I believe he falls.

He's very tall.

I think he followed the law.

I really believe.

So, listen, I saw this picture of Don Trump Jr.

in the New York Times style section on Sunday, and

I just had to do something about this because, you know.

In a certain sense, I've heard this many times in my life.

It's not easy to be the son of a great man.

Some people think Donald Trump is a great man.

He certainly is a prominent man.

And Don Jr., you know, I think has always wanted to say, look, I'm not just Uday or Kusay Hussein.

I'm not just baby Doc Duvalier.

I'm not Kim Jong-un.

Kim Jong-dee, whatever.

I'm my own person.

Don't hate me for being Donald Trump's son.

And I don't.

I hate him because he shoots fucking lions.

Anyway.

But this picture

made me realize that he's actually kind of an introspective guy.

And I didn't realize it.

He wrote a book called Kind of an Introspective Guy.

And I'm going to read some of the passages.

For example, before I touched it, this tree was alive.

Now look at it.

That's the power of a trunk.

When I look at people, I don't see white, black, brown, or red.

I see a chauffeur, a cook, a gardener,

and a drunk trying to stop daddy from oil drilling.

When I gaze up at the stars, I'm struck with a sense of the divine that I almost forget I'm being blown in a convertible.

Excuse me.

If dad and Putin were just wrestling, why'd they act so weird when I walk up?

My dad's jokes always make me laugh because I want him to leave me money when he dies.

If dad and Ivanka were just wrestling,

I don't need to be the best to be a worthwhile person who deserves love.

I just need to be better than Tiffany.

Poor Tiffany.

If father ever hugged me, would he count it as grappling a pussy?

Okay.

Let's bring out

the next guest.

He is a Yale history professor whose latest book is On Tyranny, 20 Lessons from the 20th Century.

Timothy Snyder.

Timothy.

How you doing, Sarah?

Great to see you.

Great to see you.

All right.

So you are, your expert is in, expertise is in tyranny.

So this is your busy season.

Yes.

And you offer 20 lessons, but this is TV.

Give us the top three.

Okay.

Let me give you three in a bonus.

The first is don't obey in advance.

It's normal to adjust to a new situation.

Don't obey in advance.

Obey obey the dictator.

Don't obey the shift.

Don't obey the drift.

Don't follow what everyone else is doing.

When there's a special moment like the present one, figure out what you stand for and be yourself.

Normally,

normally we adjust.

I think you have not read this book.

Yeah.

See, I'm worried about the confusion.

Could we not show that one?

Could we show the other one?

He cares about tyranny and book sales.

That's what I love about the proposition.

Okay, number two, defend institutions, right?

This is a time when people like you and me and our friends say, the institutions are going to save us.

This is wrong, right?

We have to save the institutions.

They don't do it on their own, right?

So

this is the moment of ask not what the institutions can do for me.

It's ask what you can do for the institutions.

Fill them out, support them.

Don't expect them to be robots because they're not.

Number three, believe in truth.

Believe in truth.

Without truth, we don't have trust.

Without trust, we don't have the rule of law.

Without the rule of law, we don't have democracy.

So people who are going for post-fact, people who are against the truth, they're taking the direct line to killing democracy.

It's the shortcut to getting rid of democracy.

When we think about...

Bill, when we think about post-fact, when we think about post-fact, we think post-modernism, then we think Berkeley and Baguettes and France and nice things.

But what we should be thinking about, in all seriousness, is fascism.

It's the fascists who said, everyday life doesn't matter, details don't matter, facts don't matter, all that matters is the message, the leader, the myth, the totality.

We should be thinking about the 1920s.

Right.

I mean, if you...

I made a little list of things about Donald Trump,

which you know, remind me of

third world dictators.

You're a narcissist who likes putting

his name on buildings.

That's what they do.

You appoint your family members to positions of power.

Your rallies are scary.

You hate the press and use your own propaganda outlet instead.

You want to hold missile parades.

You know, you wanted to have a missile parade.

You use your office for your own personal financial gain.

You like other dictators and strongmen.

You claim minorities are the cause of the economic anxieties of the majority.

You lie so freely your supporters give up.

It's everyone except dressing in a military costume.

When is that coming, Doc?

Yeah.

Right.

So, I mean, I'm not going to laugh at that.

Is that just funny?

No, I'm not going to laugh at any of that because

in your world as third world dictators, in my world where I come from, it's the 1930s.

Right.

Picking out a group of your neighbors and citizens and associating them with a worldwide threat, that's the 1930s, right?

And what we have to remember about the 1930s, we think of Hitler and Stalin as supervillains, but they're not.

They could only come to power with some form of consent.

Hitler was elected.

Right, exactly.

So this is the way regime change normally happens.

There's an election by the rules, more or less.

We'll talk more about that later.

And after the election, from within, the regime is changed.

step by step, which by the way is the bonus lesson.

The thing that I really worry about is a lesson towards the end of the book is the the Reichstag fire.

That moment when a leader- Tell them what it was.

Right.

Okay, so I'll tell you.

So, the moment.

I know, tell them.

All right.

So,

if you insist.

And Hitler gets elected in 1933.

Elected.

Right.

So, you're elected.

You don't necessarily have policies that are popular.

After the election, there's a mysterious terrorist attack.

You use that as the occasion to

burn Hitler's henchmen burn down the Reichstag, which was their parliament.

We don't know who burned down.

And they blamed it on the Mexicans.

Well, no,

it was the Muslims.

But the point is,

the serious point is, when the terrorist attack comes, you will not necessarily know who did it, but what you can know is that certain kinds of leaders will use that moment to suspend your rights.

So when that moment comes, despite your fear and your grief, during your fear and your grief, you have to mobilize and protest for your own rights because the Reichstag fire is the oldest trick in the Hitlerian book.

We cannot let that trick be played.

Okay, I'm glad you said that.

I want to read three quick stats to you and the panel.

That is germane to this whole discussion.

Trump voters, 51% of them, think Trump should be able to overturn decisions by judges that he disagrees with.

These are the people who carried the Constitution in their pocket and waived waived it.

In 1995, one in 16 Americans said Army rule would be a good thing.

Now it's one in six.

And people keep talking about the hope is the young people, fuck.

Millennials, only about 30% of millennials, 30%, think it's essential to live in a democracy.

That's what I'm worried about.

I think about this all the time because,

in two ways.

One is that the generation of people that experienced fascism and world war are dying off.

The generation of people that have experienced the alternatives to the boring frustrations of liberal democracy have died off.

And look, there are so many problems with the international liberal order as constituted.

And Donald Trump, when he says NATO needs to pay more and everyone seems to be screwing us, and yeah, there's a lot of problems with it, the EU, as we saw in Brexit.

But the alternative was barbarism on an unconscionable scale with two of the worst wars in human history within the span of three decades and that has been completely lost to our social and political consciousness in the developed world.

But Chris, but Chris, we've.

Because we don't teach history.

But we also,

that's exactly right, but we also

chose to lose it because after 1989, we said, history is over, the details don't matter, we can forget about the important concepts.

And so we then raised a generation without history, without references to the alternatives that you've talked about.

And we raised them without a shitload of homework that goes with being a citizen.

And nobody's civics.

The two things we don't teach anymore, civics and history.

And the worst thing you can say as liberals is, he's not my president.

Yes, he is, which means

he works for us.

We are the boss, and we must demand that he do the job.

I think

to your point about the 1920s and your point, Bill, about those terrible things that people believe, there's also the propaganda issue.

In the 1920s and the rise of fascism, demonizing people with anti-Semitic cartoons and so forth.

The modern-day version of that is fake news.

And this country is under attack on its social networks from...

Russian-funded, Russian-pushed propaganda that is uniquely tailored to each individual group.

And by the way, it was deployed in our election.

It's being deployed right now in France.

It's being deployed all over the world.

We found out this week that Trump's campaign manager, Paul Manafort, was on the payroll to the tune of $10 million.

Ten bills, dude, $10 million

a year to, I forget the phrase, but basically use the media and

something else like advertising.

Right, and the term is called the Gerazimov doctrine, and that's used by the Russians as what's called hybrid warfare, where it's literally 50 shades of gray between war and peace.

And that is literally how they are conducting post-Cold War military actions to reclaim their lost empire.

It's economic, it's military, it's political, and it is propaganda.

Yeah, but exactly.

And this guy who is working for the people who say America first,

he's on the payroll to advance Putin's agenda.

Putin's agenda is to call into question the value of Western-style democracy.

But that makes perfect sense.

When the Soviet Union fell, I think we all had this illusion that, oh, communism is over.

Now we can be buddy-buddies with the Russian because we don't have anything separating us anymore.

And that was bullshit.

Even with communism gone, there was a lot separating us because it's a police state.

And we forget

they lost.

And they're hurting.

And we didn't come rebuild them the way we did Western Europe with the Marshall Plan.

We let them language.

Putin's agenda that Manafort was working for is not our agenda.

That's treasonous.

You know what?

That's not patriotic.

America First.

What's...

It would be hilarious about it if it wasn't actually happening to us in real life But America first is a Russian slogan It's a Nazi slogan being pushed by Russia who are quite literally attacking not only America but the whole of the West every country in Europe is undergoing these plots

I feel like there is a little bit of a temptation to create Donald Trump as some sort of foreign project like Donald Trump is super American let's just be clear that like who he that the idea that it was it was the product of it was the product of foreign manipulation that gave us Donald Trump.

Like, well,

Donald Trump came out of the world.

Pushed in love with it.

That may or end up in the middle of the morning.

Right, but look, their propaganda aims for our weaknesses the way that a sniper aims for the lungs and the head.

So they know us, they know how to work with us, and they've done it very well.

Donald Trump is American, right, but his advisors have worked with the Russians, right?

His investors are Russian.

His post-fact style is Russian.

And his whole idea of greatness is actually Russian.

There are billboards up in Russia now.

Comey said on the same, let's make the world great together.

What Comey said on Monday was that Putin hated Hillary so much.

Who else hates Hillary?

The Republicans and Trump.

They had a common enemy, a common goal.

Do we really think that Donald Trump, who has never done anything in his life except by the doctrine of winning is all that matters, would have the moral fiber to resist the fact that they have this common enemy that they're working against.

Let's also be clear.

He literally told them to hack her

publicly.

It's like we have this big investigation.

Like, well, maybe there's collusion.

He looked into a camera and said to hack her.

Yeah, and I couldn't agree with you more.

Before we run out of time, London.

London, you know.

Another terrorist attack this week, and ISIS claimed credit.

I was surprised because I thought we had wiped out ISIS on day one, as Donald Trump said.

Well, Donald Trump said it was a good time to get away from the city.

So, yeah, he's behind schedule, but I mean, ISIS Aren't a Credible.

ISIS Aren't a Credible source, number one.

And number two, this is another example of exactly what you were talking about: where we take one group of people and we demonize them.

The guy was British-born.

His name was Adrian before he converted.

And when this awful terrorist attack happened and people lost their lives, including an American and a British policeman, partisans of Russia were out in the streets saying it was an illegal immigrant that did it, trying to turn London people against our Muslim friends and neighbours.

Although you are not going to do that.

But let's not go to the moment.

But let's not pretend it has nothing to do with Islam, the religion.

It doesn't.

It has nothing to do with Islam.

It has nothing to do with it.

That's very ill.

It has nothing to do with it.

The way that Texas conveyed had nothing to do with Roman Catholicism.

Because every time some bomb goes off, before it goes off, somebody yes, Allahu Apgar.

I never heard anybody go, Merry Christmas.

But to say nothing.

This one's for the flying nun.

Yeah, well, they shot up a mosque in Canada, and they shot up a mosque in Canada, and you do, in fact, see neo-Nazi things all the time and they do shout out racist slogans.

It's just that we don't cover them in the same way.

But when Christians do things like this, do we ever say Christian terrorism?

Never.

No, but is Christian terrorism as big a problem?

They're in the terror 90s.

We're talking about London.

That's again a false equivalency.

What about London?

What about the terrorists?

Excuse me.

Are there Christian terrorist armies like ISIS?

There are

15 years.

That's the past.

Oh, right.

So,

but we're living now.

But was the IRA a Catholic army?

Yes, there was also the Inquisition.

That was the past.

But was it a Catholic army?

Are there Christian terrorist armies like ISIS, Al-Qaeda, Boko Haram, al-Shabaab?

Are there armies like that in the world that are not Muslim?

When I grew up, there were no

problems.

When I grew up, there weren't any more.

Can we please get real?

Well, no, I don't agree with you.

I

Time for new rules.

That's what I believe.

New rule, don't take your iPhone

in the bath, especially if it's plugged into the wall.

A London man did that last week and died, and when they found him in the water, they tried to dry him out in a bag full of rice.

New rule celebrities have to stop giving interviews where they say they wish they weren't a celebrity.

Like Selena Gomez who told Vogue this month, I really can't wait for people to forget about me.

If only there wasn't that law forcing her to give interviews to magazines.

All she wants is to be left alone, but this limo keeps pulling up and taking her to concerts and photo shoots.

It's so unfair.

Neural, now that the Brazilian goalie Bruno D'Souza is back playing pro soccer after serving time for torturing and murdering his ex-girlfriend because he didn't want to pay child support, Americans have to calm the hell down about Tom Brady.

Yeah, he likes Trump and cheated a little.

Get back to me when he runs Giselle through a wood chipper

Neural, someone has to explain why Cubans are poor and have next to nothing and they make music like this.

Well, America is the richest country in the world and we make music like this.

Neural, if you're using...

If you're using Hush, the vibrating butt plug.

Yeah, I vibrating butt plug.

That your partner operates remotely from another location using their smartphone.

You have to look at your intimacy issues.

Hush, it brings a whole new meaning to the phrase, hold on, I'm going through a tunnel.

And finally, new rule: America needs more Republicans like this guy.

This man should be commended and not just for being the first Trump voter to get all the spelling right on a sign

but because it's not easy to admit that you've been taken by a con man.

Now during the campaign, conman Trump said this about the high cost of pharmaceuticals.

And we're going to get drug prices so far lower than they are now, your head will spin.

That's right.

He promised to use his deal-making superpowers

to get the drug companies to cut prices.

But after the election, he sat down with the executives of Big Pharma.

And what do you know?

It turns out the solution isn't to get tough at all.

It's to cut regulations.

Fuck.

He promised the Keystone Pipeline would be built with American steel.

It won't.

He promised to be the savior of coal miners, but here was the headline last month.

Trump's budget slams West Virginia.

I know you real Americans hate being called stupid, but you got to meet me halfway and stop being stupid.

I mean, I would say Trump was a used car salesman, but with a used car salesman, at least you get a car.

With Trump, you don't get any car, but you definitely get taken for a ride.

He promised, and I quote, we're going to have insurance for everybody, much less expensive and much better.

But when we saw the bill, it was a giant tax cut for the rich paid by kicking 24 million people off their health insurance.

What a truly novel approach to making health care less expensive.

Saving money by not giving people health care.

It's like saving money on your kids' education by letting them stay home and watch Judge Judy.

And again, I don't want to use the S word,

but then you have to tell me how this sounded at all possible.

You're going to end up with great health care for a fraction of the price, and that's going to take place immediately after we go in, okay?

Immediately, fast, quick.

Believing health care could be way better at a fraction of the cost is so

silly.

Let's call it silly.

The Trump approach to health care was never going to be repeal and replace.

It was always

bait and switch.

Because.

Because that is the conman's approach to everything.

Did I say health insurance for all?

I meant access to insurance.

Did I say Mexico would pay for the beautiful wall that keeps drug dealers out and locks the freshness in?

I meant Mexico would pay us back.

I will build a great, great wall on our southern border and I will have Mexico pay for that wall.

Act now and we'll throw in a second wall absolutely free.

Trump has promised jobs.

You're probably wondering, will these be good jobs?

I'm glad you asked.

Massive numbers of jobs, high-paying jobs, good jobs, not the jobs we have today, which everybody agrees are bad jobs.

They're going to create massive numbers of good jobs.

Right.

Good jobs in the burgeoning new field of something terrific.

You know,

you Trumpsters, you didn't elect the next Reagan.

You elected this guy.

I invite you to come to my seminar.

Learn how to make a lot of money.

Once you have a taste of a good life, you will never go back.

You will.

You elected every cheap huckster who you should have known was full of shit because he was always promising the moon.

Everything is always foolproof and 100%.

But it is a foolproof way of winning the war with ISIS, and it will be absolutely 100% they'll at a minimum come to the table, and actually they'll be defeated very quickly.

Folks, how much would you pay to get rid of ISIS very quickly?

Don't answer yet, because not only will ISIS be gone like that,

here's our guarantee on undocumented immigrants.

They're going out so fast your head will spin.

So, which do you like better?

Winning so much you're tired of winning, or having your head spin?

The heads would spin, your head will spin.

Winning, winning, winning, your head will spin, winning big league.

It's too much winning.

We can't take it anymore.

Order now and we will throw in everything.

I will give you everything.

I will give you what you've been looking for 30, 40, 50 years.

Really?

Everything?

Everything, he said.

Okay, I won't mock you anymore.

You're not the first people to be fooled by a guy like Donald Trump.

What's your name?

Stanley Dowowski.

Polish, eh?

What a coincidence.

Bruny Polanski, how are you?

No sense crying over spilt snake oil.

You can keep liking him, but just admit he is a con man and a good one.

The kind who tells you, I promise I'll pull out while he's coming.

All right, that's our show.

I'll be at the Mirage in Vegas May 19th and 20th.

I want to thank Max Brooks, Louise Menz, Chris Hayes, Timothy Snyder, and Matt Schlapp.

Join us now for overtime on YouTube.

Thank you, folks.

Catch all new episodes of Real Time with Bill Maher every Friday night at 10 or watch him anytime on HBO On Demand.

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