Ep. #685: Kid Rock, Tim Ryan, Pamela Paul

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Speaker 7 Welcome to an HBO podcast from the HBO Late Night Series, Real Time with Bill Ma.

Speaker 7 Hey, everybody.

Speaker 7 How are you?

Speaker 7 Hi.

Speaker 7 Is everybody here?

Speaker 7 Not to have a brother.

Speaker 7 How are you doing? Thank you so much.

Speaker 7 Oh, I appreciate it.

Speaker 7 I'm glad.

Speaker 3 Thank you so much. I'm very glad.

Speaker 3 I know, I know.

Speaker 3 It's a man. I know, I know.
It's not me.

Speaker 3 It's the fact that you have a three-day weekend. You're going to have Monday off.
It's

Speaker 3 right.

Speaker 3 Is it President's Day?

Speaker 3 All government offices will be closed, although I think that was the plan anyway.

Speaker 3 Yeah, this is

Speaker 3 week four of Hulk Smash

Speaker 3 The administration that dissects a frog with a hand grenade.

Speaker 2 This is their method

Speaker 3 Yeah, America is in shock that the guy whose catchphrase was you're fired is firing everybody in government

Speaker 3 He wants to suck our blood. That is not what I voted for when I voted for Dracula that maybe this is why Gen Z's approval rating of Trump has dropped 30 points in one month.

Speaker 3 Hey, kids, a little tip. The time to pay attention is before the election.

Speaker 3 But yeah, I mean, they are.

Speaker 3 Look, I believe government is too bloated, but the way they're doing it is ridiculous and horrible. And now they went, maybe this is the one that's too far.

Speaker 3 They went and fired almost everybody in the agency that's responsible for maintaining our nuclear weapons, fired, and then of course they had to walk that back because nobody said this is a national security crisis.

Speaker 2 Duh. I mean

Speaker 2 we were

Speaker 3 ironic.

Speaker 3 We were so scared that the government was going to turn into the handmaid's cow

Speaker 3 that we didn't see that the big threat was from the guys on the Big Bang theory.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 3 Elon Musk had a great line this week. He said, I love Donald Trump as much as a straight man can love another man.

Speaker 3 I know, someone like him to make things awkward.

Speaker 3 That is some statement.

Speaker 3 Flattery will get you anywhere with Donald Trump.

Speaker 3 But apparently it's mutual because Elon, I'm sure you saw this, was in the Oval Office this week with his four-year-old.

Speaker 3 And just the scene reminded a lot of people of that old fable where the little boy says to his mother, the emperor has no clothes.

Speaker 3 And his mother says, that's not the emperor, that's Kanye West's wife.

Speaker 3 Well,

Speaker 3 this is

Speaker 3 so sad.

Speaker 3 Valentine's Day, and that's it. The marriage is over.
Bianca Sensori and Kanye West have called it quits.

Speaker 3 I just hope this doesn't make Kanye do something stupid.

Speaker 3 Yeah,

Speaker 3 apparently

Speaker 3 it was a while in coming. Kemai tried to be sensitive.
He said to her, it's not you, it's not me, it's the Jews.

Speaker 3 But, you know, they tried to make it civil, and apparently at one point, it got pretty nasty, and Kanye threw all her clothes out on the front yard.

Speaker 3 But,

Speaker 3 yeah.

Speaker 3 But I tell you, Valentine's Day today, and this city, we got no luck, right? First we had the fire,

Speaker 3 and then yesterday we had

Speaker 3 an atmospheric river.

Speaker 2 I think that means it rained a lot.

Speaker 3 So

Speaker 3 the rain, on top of the ash, and at the worst time, Valentine's Day, because no one likes a wet ash pussy.

Speaker 2 All right, we've got a great show.

Speaker 3 We've got Jim Ryan and ParmalaPaul.

Speaker 3 But first up, my first guest.

Speaker 3 has been a rock star from before you kids were born. His latest arena tour starts in March.
The Rock the Country tour in April. On May 16th is Kid Rock's Rock and Rodeo in Arlington.

Speaker 3 Kid Rock, everybody.

Speaker 3 Come on.

Speaker 3 Good to see you. Me too.

Speaker 3 Yeah, come on, that.

Speaker 3 That's got to make you feel good here in liberal Los Angeles.

Speaker 2 I'm not expecting that.

Speaker 3 Right.

Speaker 2 My crowd is awesome.

Speaker 3 They do not fuck around with

Speaker 3 hating people.

Speaker 2 As it should be.

Speaker 3 As it should be. Right.
And we're going to talk about that. But first, three tours.
You're not having a midlife crisis, are you, Bob?

Speaker 3 Why three tours? And you know what? I would like to, I'm a big fan of your music, not the early rap shit.

Speaker 3 But once you became a singer, Like, remember Picture in what was like 20 years ago, that awesome record with Tradable Crow after that in New York.

Speaker 3 And you know,

Speaker 3 once you became Bob Seeger, all those albums, I fucking love them. But I don't want to go to a Trump rally.
I would love to see a concert of yours, but it's also a Trump rally.

Speaker 3 Why does it have to be both?

Speaker 5 Well, this year it's going to be. It's going to be, you know, I said in a post that now's not the time to gloat.
You know, I really believe in bringing people together, reasonable people.

Speaker 5 But I think going out and having a little celebration is not bad for me and a lot of people who took a lot of shit for the last eight years. You know, I took a lot of crap from the media everywhere.

Speaker 5 I mean, at the end of the day, honestly, I only kind of made my shit bigger. But, you know, nonetheless, it's like every day.
Somebody is coming at you.

Speaker 5 You know, anything I do positive, nowhere to be found.

Speaker 5 Any little slip up here or there, it's like, ah, you know, Kid Rock's at it again, that drunk, washed up, you know, fucked up musician or whatever. It's like, okay, whatever.

Speaker 2 Well,

Speaker 3 we've been nice to you. We got rid of the Bud Light in the dressing room.

Speaker 3 Okay, so

Speaker 3 you have an arena tour. Then you have one of small towns.

Speaker 5 Do an arena tour start in March. It's only seven shows.
I'm doing 20 shows this year, so it's not like

Speaker 5 grandpa's going to break his back.

Speaker 3 And what's the...

Speaker 3 And what's this rock and rodeo? I mean, your music combined with torturing animals.

Speaker 5 We're trying to reimagine rodeo,

Speaker 5 which is basically teams competition.

Speaker 5 And it's actually, you know, it's the actual only team sport where women compete with men, not because of any DEI bullshit, because women are the best barrel racers out there.

Speaker 5 So we do this Imagine Rodeo.

Speaker 1 Wow.

Speaker 2 Wow.

Speaker 3 They're the best, right?

Speaker 5 So we do this reimagine rodeo with teams competing against teams.

Speaker 3 What is a barrel racer?

Speaker 2 Oh, come on, man.

Speaker 3 I don't know. Do you know what that is?

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Oh.

Speaker 3 All right. Well, fuck that.

Speaker 5 Women take off on horses and they race around the barrels and they're usually timed by a clock. But now they're racing head-to-head against each other.
So it brings a little more drama.

Speaker 5 I opened the show with a big number last year. Jellyroll did it with me.

Speaker 3 Who's going to be on the show this year?

Speaker 2 I haven't figured it out yet.

Speaker 3 Diddy?

Speaker 2 Just a suggestion.

Speaker 3 Just a suggestion.

Speaker 2 Well,

Speaker 5 we actually played the Super Bowl.

Speaker 2 You and Diddy?

Speaker 5 Diddy was on that. No one remembers, first of all.

Speaker 3 We're talking about 2004 or something? Yeah, I can't remember the year.

Speaker 2 We were the Super Bowl.

Speaker 5 No one remembers that any of us played it because Janet Jackson showed her boob.

Speaker 3 So who was on that bill? It was a Nellie. Oh, it was a bunch of people.

Speaker 5 Puff Daddy, myself.

Speaker 2 Right, Justin.

Speaker 5 Janet Jackson, and she brought out Justin Timberlake.

Speaker 2 Oh.

Speaker 3 And you got buried by the nipple.

Speaker 2 Got buried by that little shitty boy.

Speaker 3 What did you think of this year's Super Bowl? I mean, you mentioned DEI, people complained about that.

Speaker 5 I mean, to put it nicely, it wasn't my cup of tea, but I got to respect it. And here's why.
You know, I grew up loving, emulating hip-hop, all things hip-hop. Breakdancing, DJing, graffiti, rapping.

Speaker 5 And so I understand the culture a little bit more than most. And when I say most, of course, I mean white people.

Speaker 2 So,

Speaker 5 you know, watching it, I'm like, you know, after there's a lot of things going through your head, you know, everyone's like, that sucked, this, that, and the other.

Speaker 5 I'm like, man, I'm like, this kid pretty much came out

Speaker 5 figuratively with both middle fingers in the air. doing what he does for the people who love what he does unapologetically.

Speaker 5 I don't think he gives a frog's fat ass what anyone thinks about it. Like you.
Well, that's what I'm saying. I'm like, so I go, huh, it's pretty much how I built my whole career.
I got to respect it.

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 3 Yeah, okay. There we go.
Common ground.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I mean, now how do you get there?

Speaker 5 I think a lot of people, I've heard nobody answer this question yet, like, how did he get that gig? Jay-Z.

Speaker 5 All right, what happened there? I think Jay-Z and Kendrick Lamar should both send send Colin Kaepernick a bunt cake and a six-pack of beer and a thank-you note with a bunch of money in it.

Speaker 5 Because without him kneeling and getting everyone's panties in a bunch over the anthem, self included,

Speaker 5 I don't think that happens.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I know you.

Speaker 5 And by the way, wait, one more point.

Speaker 5 This was the epitome of DEI.

Speaker 5 This was the epitome of DEI blowing up. Because, you know, the NFL was all in this DEI and racism, all this stuff.
They got Jay-Z in their book and this.

Speaker 5 and like Kendrick Lamar goes out there and basically turns DEI into an IED.

Speaker 2 It's like it's all black people or all people of color speaking to his crowd in the hood, black people.

Speaker 5 It was like the most non-exclusive or the most exclusive thing ever. And I'm like, fuck yeah, that's awesome.

Speaker 2 I'm laughing my ass off.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 3 But

Speaker 3 on the bringing people together part, I mean, you have a song called My Kind of Country. My Kind of Country Has Room for Trump and a JFK.
That's the first line, right?

Speaker 5 Had I known, it would have said RFK.

Speaker 3 Is that the last Democrat you liked?

Speaker 5 No, I mean, my whole business is Democrats. I mean, so to speak.
Not my whole business, you know, I live in Nashville now, but that's the world I've operated for years and years.

Speaker 5 I mean, half my band's, you know, liberal, gay, or black, or this, like, you know, and it's like, we have one of the most diverse bands out there, not because of any of this DI shit, just because they're the best at what they do, and we all love each other.

Speaker 3 Right, and

Speaker 3 I mean, you played the inauguration.

Speaker 3 Didn't Nellie and Snoop play that too?

Speaker 5 Yeah, I believe they did.

Speaker 5 But remember, I also played Barack Obama's inauguration.

Speaker 3 Oh, I didn't remember that.

Speaker 2 I didn't vote for him.

Speaker 5 I played for him at the Kennedy Center, you know, this, that, and the other. I'm like, everybody's just got to calm the fuck down a little bit.

Speaker 2 You know what I mean?

Speaker 3 Well,

Speaker 2 I mean.

Speaker 3 I tell you what makes me a little not calm. Trump keeps joking about a third term.

Speaker 2 Get it?

Speaker 3 Democracy's over.

Speaker 2 I haven't heard that.

Speaker 3 You haven't heard that? He does it all the time. He does does it all the time.

Speaker 5 Well, he likes to joke. I know he's funny as shit.

Speaker 5 I'm telling you.

Speaker 5 The guy's hilarious. He's so fun to hang out with.

Speaker 3 Well, I'll bet he is fun to hang out with.

Speaker 3 But you don't think he's serious about that? No. And if he was,

Speaker 3 would that be a break for you? Would anything make you break? If he said, no, I'm going to be against our Constitution, what we've had for many years. You cannot run for a third term.

Speaker 3 If he said, no, I'm staying, would that break with you?

Speaker 5 Under current circumstances, if things are going along the way they've been going along, along, yes, it feels like I'm running for a third to be like, whoa, whoa, pump the brakes, man.

Speaker 2 Hold on a second.

Speaker 3 So he could lose Kid Rock.

Speaker 2 It'd be very tough.

Speaker 3 It'd be very, very tough.

Speaker 3 Very, very tough.

Speaker 5 I told you before, which is probably going to be shocked to your audience, I don't like Trump.

Speaker 2 You love you. I fucking love Trump.
I know.

Speaker 3 I know you do.

Speaker 3 And maybe like what Elon says about him, as much as a man can love another man.

Speaker 2 That's where you guys should know.

Speaker 3 So let's talk about the, before we run out of time, the issue that's important to you, which is scalping.

Speaker 3 So you're encouraging something called the BOTS Act, which I think everybody can get behind.

Speaker 5 Well, it's not just the BOTS Act. I mean, this has been going on for decades.
As anybody knows who's ever bought a concert ticket to a big show, and it'll last however long, it's complete horseshit.

Speaker 5 A lot of bad actors in there, this that and the other DOJs looking at the ticket master, of course, and if they got broke up, no, I wouldn't shed a tear, but that doesn't solve the problem.

Speaker 5 What we have to really look at right now is what's going on in some of these European markets, like France.

Speaker 5 They basically put a price cap on reselling a ticket of like 10 or 15 percent.

Speaker 5 I mean, really, the artists should control them, is what I feel, because I mean, what business doesn't control their own inventory? You know what I mean?

Speaker 5 So, I can sell tickets how I want to, who I want at the prices I want, but that's, you know, trying to police it, that's crazy.

Speaker 3 And you're saying that the customers who get screwed.

Speaker 5 The customers get screwed, of course. They screwed up.

Speaker 6 So what is there at the time?

Speaker 3 What does the act do? What would it forbid? This is regulation.

Speaker 5 It would forbid, pardon me, I'm just getting overcold. It would forbid speculative ticketing, people trying to sell tickets that don't have them yet,

Speaker 5 all in pricing. So you don't get the end of the checkout.
You're buying a $100 ticket. You're like, why is it $165 fucking dollars? All this horseshit tacked on.

Speaker 5 And then it would be, hey, you can't resell that ticket for over 10 or 15%,

Speaker 2 period.

Speaker 5 No matter what, if you do, you get screwed. And by the way, they need to, there's a bots act now that makes using the bots, the computers to go eat up all the good tickets illegal.

Speaker 5 They've only enforced it once, like in New York City. So I've actually talked to Pambody and be like, you got to enforce this act to start.

Speaker 3 And you're working on this with other musicians who are not of your proliferation stripe.

Speaker 5 Everyone's invited to the table. I put it out there.
Whoever wants to fix this, you know,

Speaker 5 grab a seat at the table or get the fuck out of the way.

Speaker 2 All right.

Speaker 3 I'll see you later at my house.

Speaker 2 Good rock.

Speaker 3 Three tours.

Speaker 2 Get your tickets now.

Speaker 3 Thanks, Bob.

Speaker 2 I'll see you later. Okay, let's get our panel.

Speaker 2 Hi.

Speaker 2 Okay. Hey.

Speaker 3 All right. There they are.
He is a former Democratic congressman from Ohio and co-chair of Natural Allies for a Clean Energy Future Coalition, Tim Ryan.

Speaker 2 Tim Ryan. Thank you.

Speaker 3 Casually dressed Tim Ryan.

Speaker 3 now that he's out of office, and an opinion columnist for the New York Times and author of 100 Things We've Lost to the Internet. Pamela Paul back with us.
Great to see you.

Speaker 3 Okay, so

Speaker 3 Trump back in office. I never have enough time in an hour just to cover what he did in the first two days of the week.

Speaker 3 I'm going to try. I feel like the theme is overreach.
You know, I feel like your party just lost pretty big.

Speaker 3 And if you ever want to get back into the White House, either party, I've seen this over the years in politics, probably the best way to do it is to lose big.

Speaker 3 Because when you lose big, then the other party gets overconfident and they go buck wild.

Speaker 3 And then the people reverse, right?

Speaker 3 So like this week, well, I mean,

Speaker 3 inflation is back. That went up.
The magic man did not make the price of eggs go down.

Speaker 3 In Biden's America, I could buy as many as I want. Now it's just one carton.

Speaker 2 Tariffs.

Speaker 3 I'm mentioning the things that I think people don't like already.

Speaker 3 Not just, you know, the people who didn't like them, the middle that decides election. Inflation, tariffs.
The cost of conquering,

Speaker 3 four places now we're conquering. Greenland, Gaza, Panama, and he's apparently serious about Canada.
It's being going to be called even Northern Dakota.

Speaker 3 The glee with which they're dismantling government, they don't like that. They think government is bloated.
I do, but this is not the way to go about it.

Speaker 3 I guess the question I'm asking is:

Speaker 3 they're the bull in the China shop. When do people realize they're the China?

Speaker 2 I mean,

Speaker 2 it's like putting

Speaker 8 the penguin and the joker in charge of reforming government. And I think that obviously Donald Trump has shown himself very good at toggling between grift and graft.
And I don't think that

Speaker 8 I don't think this is anything approaching a reasonable way to go about it. And it's largely performative.
I mean that whole Elon Musk in the Oval Office, he's just trolling everyone.

Speaker 8 And even if, for example, they did cut one fourth of the federal workforce, that is not going to reduce federal spending any more than about 1%.

Speaker 8 So

Speaker 8 this is just, I think, largely performative and bluster.

Speaker 3 I do think

Speaker 9 I love how annoyed Trump looked at Musk's kid in the Oval Office.

Speaker 2 It was like,

Speaker 2 everyone's like, look how cute that kid is.

Speaker 9 And Trump's like, get this fucking kid out of here.

Speaker 2 Hey,

Speaker 2 hey,

Speaker 2 I'm the four-year-old around here, okay?

Speaker 9 I do think that they are

Speaker 9 clearly overstepping. They have the broader narrative that everyone knows how screwed up the government is, how much it wastes money, there's a lot of fraud.

Speaker 9 So they've got like this kind of inoculation, generally speaking.

Speaker 9 But what they're doing is raising bank fees, allowing people who used to be able to file a bankruptcy for medical care, medical expenses, that did not count against your credit. They reverse that.

Speaker 9 All of these things, I read a commentary.

Speaker 3 Will they notice that and will they blame him for it? Well, that's what I haven't seen in the past.

Speaker 9 Well, it's only been a few weeks, but I think it's going to be a matter of time and what's the opposition party doing?

Speaker 2 You You don't go fall and

Speaker 9 die on the hill of foreign aid, which I voted for foreign aid. Foreign aid's important.
I sat on the Defense Committee. I know how important those aid programs are.

Speaker 9 But with all this stuff going on, you're going to amplify that they want to cut foreign aid. I just think that's a huge...

Speaker 9 strategic mistake because now you look like you're defending government spending even when people in Youngstown, Ohio don't have a meal, costs are up, can't buy eggs, XYZ,

Speaker 9 you're still shipping.

Speaker 3 You're talking about USAID, which is, that was the big story last week.

Speaker 3 That's the first thing they went after, and this is the problem, is that you're talking about two guys who both have a mental problem, I would say. Wait a second, wait a second.

Speaker 3 In that they just, they have no mechanism when they feel personally slighted not to just go for utter revenge.

Speaker 3 I mean, there's a way to have done this that would have been smart and would have not looked cruel and just gleeful at this. USAID, I'm sure, does have corruption in it, as every agency does.

Speaker 3 But to go after that first, and again, we're talking about, yes, these are mostly not Americans who are getting the aid. But what you just said

Speaker 3 is interesting because that's where the Democrats are going to have to draw lines. Rahm Emanuel said the same thing.
David Axelrod said the same thing. This is not a hill this party should die on.

Speaker 9 So let me just say real quickly,

Speaker 9 I know that they look insane sometimes and for good reason, but that was a strategic move on their part because they knew what the reaction was going to be from the Democrats.

Speaker 9 They knew the Democrats were going to light their hair on fire and go protest outside the building. They knew that.

Speaker 9 And so coming out of the inauguration, they're framing the argument around, look at these guys, how out of touch they are.

Speaker 9 They're defending foreign aid and we're trying to stop waste and abuse and still do our economic stuff.

Speaker 8 Yeah, I mean, I think that the problem for the Democrats is the only way to argue against all this is to say, no, no, no, we like the status quo.

Speaker 8 The government was working fine, which is not a winning position.

Speaker 2 Nor is it true.

Speaker 8 It's the same thing as during the election when they were saying, well, the economy is great, the stock market is up, there's low unemployment, and meanwhile, people can't afford decent housing or health care or eggs.

Speaker 3 No, it's not like he was, I mean, Musk said career Treasury officials are breaking the law every hour of every day by approving payments that are fraudulent or do not match the funding laws passed by Congress.

Speaker 3 Is that true? I don't know because he says things that aren't true all the time and doesn't care. Or retweets something that is plainly, easily provably not true.
So I don't know.

Speaker 3 But I do know this, because this comes from the Government Accountability Office. That's not the Trump administration.

Speaker 3 The federal government loses an estimated $233 $233 billion to $521 billion annually to fraud.

Speaker 3 So when Trump fired, the first thing he did was fired all the inspectors general, and I thought, well, that's not good. That's their job to watchdog stuff.

Speaker 3 But if you're losing $521 billion a year, how good are you watchdogging? You got to...

Speaker 3 I'm not saying we should have fired them, but like.

Speaker 2 How do you, I mean...

Speaker 8 They're firing people at the IRS because they're still not done auditing Donald Trump's taxes. So

Speaker 2 I mean

Speaker 3 is that true? They're still not done with this taxes.

Speaker 9 Big taxes.

Speaker 3 That could be true. Big taxes.

Speaker 9 I just think,

Speaker 9 come from a place of reform, and you probably need more inspectors general.

Speaker 9 When they wanted to hire more IRS agents, it wasn't because they wanted to bloat the government. It's because you need enough people to go after all the people that are cheating on their taxes.

Speaker 3 And so

Speaker 9 that's where you like kick your spot. Like Elon Musk isn't paying taxes.
He's getting all these government subsidies. These guys aren't paying taxes.

Speaker 9 You go through all the rates that average people pay versus billionaires. You say, we're hiring more cops on the beat to go get those SOBs because they're not paying their fair share of taxes.

Speaker 9 Well, you are. And that shifts the whole dynamic of the conversation that's happening.
That's a much different conversation than we want to say for an age.

Speaker 3 All right, well, let me put you on the spot here as somebody who I think might be running for governor of Ohio.

Speaker 3 You ran against J.D. Vance for the Senate.

Speaker 9 I don't know if I'm running for governor or not, but I appreciate the shout-out here.

Speaker 3 I mean, we hear rumors. We hear rumors.

Speaker 3 Not in that sweater, you're not.

Speaker 2 But no, I'm kidding.

Speaker 3 You're perfectly much.

Speaker 2 His wife's not in this way.

Speaker 9 You're in deep shit with my wife. Oh, right.

Speaker 3 It's Valentine's Day. Anyway, I'm sure you're already in deep shit with your wife.

Speaker 9 I'm with you on Valentine's Day. That shows you how deep of shit I'm in, right?

Speaker 3 Okay, so if the subject is not a hill to die on or a hill to die in, because I could see somebody making the opposite case in the Democratic Party,

Speaker 3 I'm sure many have, about USAID and saying, well, we should lead. What, the people don't like it? Isn't it the job of leaders to make them think differently about it? That is one way to look at it.

Speaker 3 Let me go through some others. Lightning round, just tell me, should we die on the hill of birthright citizenship?

Speaker 9 I don't think so.

Speaker 3 Should we die on the hill of plastic straws?

Speaker 2 You know.

Speaker 9 No.

Speaker 2 No. Okay.

Speaker 8 I think the pennies and the plastic straws, I have to say, might be the only two

Speaker 8 little glimpses of light thus far in the

Speaker 2 Chunky Wilds.

Speaker 3 I mean, we definitely should get rid of the penny. I mean, lots of smart people have been advocating that for years.

Speaker 3 I mean, the fact that they can't do it is pretty amazing. It's different than the plastic straws.
Now, I don't think plastics are ubiquitous.

Speaker 3 Just getting rid of the straw, to use your word, performative.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 3 It's performative. I would love to get rid of all plastic because I think of all the things that are going to get us environmentally, even more than the pollution and the fires,

Speaker 3 I do think it's the plastic. Yeah.

Speaker 3 But I don't think not being able to drink a milkshake is going to do it. Okay.
So so far we have two hills you're not going to die on. Birthright citizenship and plastic straws.

Speaker 3 Ukraine.

Speaker 9 I would die on the Ukraine hill.

Speaker 3 You would die on that one.

Speaker 3 Again, not that popular a seafoot.

Speaker 2 Well, no.

Speaker 9 It's not popular, but just think about as

Speaker 9 you're going through that list and you're talking about straws and pennies, and then you talk about Ukraine.

Speaker 9 I think if we that's the kind of thing we have to take a stand on, because it would absolutely shift the dynamic of global power in the world, appeasing a dictator, appeasing a fascist like Putin,

Speaker 9 and locking in Europe to continue to be dependent on Vladimir Putin because now the Americans are getting their back. I think that shifts the whole dynamic of the world, and I think it's worth

Speaker 3 dying about that.

Speaker 8 I mean, appeasing autocracy was the theme of the week in Munich on the part of the Trump administration this week.

Speaker 3 But, okay, so here's what Pete Hagseth, our new Secretary of Defense, said. He said, returning to...

Speaker 3 Just the name, apparently, is that true.

Speaker 8 It's the words together.

Speaker 3 He said, returning to Ukraine's pre-2014 borders is an unrealistic objective, which to me is just surrender. And again, we can argue about whether that's true or not.

Speaker 3 The United States does not believe also that NATO membership

Speaker 3 for Ukraine is realistic. And Trump said, you know, it's when Biden let them say we're going to want to join NATO, that's when the trouble started.
There's some truth to that.

Speaker 3 The other side of this is, then how does the war end? Ukraine beats Russia without any help from any other country?

Speaker 3 Thank you, one guy.

Speaker 3 I'm just putting it out there, because I don't know.

Speaker 3 It's so easy to sit here and go, principles, the principle of, and then somebody on the ground is, getting a coalition of Kampf rocket in their head.

Speaker 3 That's the problem, is that I don't know how it doesn't end this way. Are they just being realistic or are they being cynical? Or they don't care?

Speaker 8 I mean, I think

Speaker 8 the way it doesn't end is having this be worked out between Putin and Donald Trump with no involvement of the rest of Europe and Ukraine itself. But that's the way that they seem to be going about it.

Speaker 3 But isn't that who it's really between at the end of the day? I mean, those two guys have the marbles.

Speaker 3 They're going to do it. That's how they both think.

Speaker 3 They both, I mean, even Putin has a Congress, a Duma. He doesn't care.
Trump doesn't understand how this country works.

Speaker 2 They may leader. I'm the leader.

Speaker 3 I call the other leader, and two leaders talk, and that's...

Speaker 3 All right, so it is

Speaker 3 me interrupt here to just say we only once every seven years we get to be on a Friday night. That is Valentine's Day, so we're very excited here.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 3 there is a phrase I think everybody knows, the whole world loves a lover. And it's complete bullshit.
The whole world does not

Speaker 3 love a lover. Love is the greatest thing in the world, but since not everybody has it, if you don't have it in your life, you're just not in the mood to see other people who do.

Speaker 3 They just piss you off. I mean, I've seen articles in your paper about this, like the people hate Valentine's Day.

Speaker 3 They're to hate Valentine's Day. Yeah.
So

Speaker 3 we thought we would do something for all the bitter people. Where are my bitter people?

Speaker 2 All my bitter people.

Speaker 2 They're right.

Speaker 2 Nobody does something for the bitter people who hate Valentine's Day.

Speaker 3 So these are honest cards for bitter people on Valentine's Day. Here they are.

Speaker 3 You had me at hello and lost me when you kept talking after that.

Speaker 3 Thank goodness you're in my life. How else would I ever know all the things I'm constantly doing wrong?

Speaker 3 You make me want to be a better person so that I can date someone more attractive than you.

Speaker 3 I love being alone because alone is never having to say, that's not what I meant.

Speaker 3 You and I are like Israelis on the West Bank, settling.

Speaker 3 Little jokes. We make little jokes.

Speaker 2 Oh, my.

Speaker 3 Our love is eternal, much like your stories about how your day went.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 3 life is better with you by my side, because if we get chased by a bear, I'm faster.

Speaker 3 All right.

Speaker 3 We joke.

Speaker 2 We kid.

Speaker 2 All right.

Speaker 3 Well, as long as we're talking about the battle of the sexes, did you watch the Super Bowl? Did you see the commercials? Did you see the Nike commercial that they ran with all the women athletes?

Speaker 3 Are we allowed to show a piece of that?

Speaker 3 Well, let's just.

Speaker 2 If the answer is yes, show it now.

Speaker 10 You can't take credit. You can't speak up.
Can't be so ambitious, break breath. You can't have any fun.
Make your hand brow.

Speaker 2 Can't keep score.

Speaker 10 Can't stand out. Whatever you do, you can't win.

Speaker 3 Okay, so there's this phrase I use a lot here: zombie lie.

Speaker 3 A zombie lie. It means like something that used to be true and it stopped being true and then people kept saying it.
I feel like this is a giant zombie lie.

Speaker 3 And if the Democrats are ever going to win again, they have to realize something about the American people. They're not that savvy about politics, but they know when you're lying.

Speaker 2 I mean...

Speaker 3 When was the last time a woman was told, you can't do this, you can't be confident? Who are these imaginary mean old men of the patriarchy?

Speaker 8 I mean, most of the messages you hear out there are girl power, you go girl, girl's code.

Speaker 8 The messages encouraging young women are so ubiquitous, it begins to sound not only dishonest, but just weird and defensive. It's like,

Speaker 8 who is saying this to them?

Speaker 8 Who are they fighting against? And why does it help girls and women to be thought that, you know, to think of of themselves as uniquely embattled and vulnerable?

Speaker 3 It's not Brad.

Speaker 3 It's not Brad at all.

Speaker 3 I mean,

Speaker 9 my kid's 10. We took him and my nephew to see an Ohio State basketball game last year.
We went to the women's game to watch Caitlin Clark play.

Speaker 9 My 10-year-old wants to watch Caitlin Clark. I mean, the world

Speaker 9 has moved beyond a lot of this stuff. Are there still issues? Absolutely.
Are women still dealing with? Absolutely, of course. And again, that's why it's not an either-or thing.

Speaker 9 But I am 51 years old, you know, and around a lot of guys my age who have daughters, they're all in.

Speaker 2 Yeah. All in with their daughters.
You can do anything.

Speaker 8 It's the boys, obviously, who aren't getting any positive messages and who really need that. Boys, yeah.
Because, I mean, if you look at any indicator, boys are behind on education, on, employment,

Speaker 2 graduation,

Speaker 3 grad school, yeah.

Speaker 2 I mean, all of them.

Speaker 9 The number one indicator of suicide is whether you're a man or a woman.

Speaker 9 The problem with men has been,

Speaker 9 and Richard Reeves has done a lot of great work on this. He wrote a book, Boys and Men, and chroniclized all of the issues with young boys and men that are dealing with.

Speaker 9 And I think all of this women's stuff, which of, you know, I'm pro-choice, I'm pro-women, I'm all that stuff, just set that aside.

Speaker 9 What are we going to do with our young men and our boys that are struggling so much with depression, you know, with all kinds of health issues, with suicide?

Speaker 9 We need a national agenda for our boys too. And you know what?

Speaker 9 The best thing you can do One of the best things you can do for women is make sure we have real

Speaker 3 men in our society that are emotionally mature and know how to be in a relationship and know how to handle themselves.

Speaker 9 And I think

Speaker 9 that's really missing here. And I think the Democrats and I think a lot of the liberals have been asleep at the switch on this.

Speaker 9 And that's why you get the toxic masculinity and you get these boys gravitating towards Trump. And I don't even know some of these guys on social media.
Andy Tate.

Speaker 2 What's the alternative?

Speaker 9 There's no alternative to them. Where are the coaches?

Speaker 9 Where are the coaches who teach discipline and focus and how to understand what you're in control of and some of these basic principles that we need boys to have?

Speaker 3 So who on the left says to the people at Nike, whoever was applauding this, and says, you know what, you're not helping.

Speaker 3 People aren't buying this.

Speaker 3 You're going to lose elections in the future. You just keep doubling down on this stupid idea of always going to the oppressed and the oppressor.

Speaker 3 And it's almost like you hate progress because it threatens your role as a social justice warrior. So women have to keep being the victims.
Even who does that?

Speaker 3 Who's the emissary there? Who's going to come out of the party and do that? Huh, Tim?

Speaker 3 I'm just asking.

Speaker 2 Well, I.

Speaker 9 I guess I have to get rid of my Nike endorsement contract.

Speaker 3 You know,

Speaker 3 you and I both waded into this once and we're probably the only two people in America who said Barbie stunk.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 3 I mean you you wrote a column, Barbie is bad, there I said it, and now you're not working at the New York Times.

Speaker 3 I think there's a connection.

Speaker 8 Yeah, yeah, yeah, that was it.

Speaker 3 Well, it was part of it, no?

Speaker 8 I don't think it was Barbie's fault

Speaker 9 or

Speaker 8 one thing I can't blame on Barbie, but I am still technically at the New York Times, although, yes, they have told me that they

Speaker 8 no longer want my opinions.

Speaker 3 They gave you like Musk, eight months will give you a salary,

Speaker 3 but get out. No.

Speaker 3 No, I mean, I remember tweeting, I went to see the movie, I hadn't seen a movie in a theater in a long time, and I tweeted about it, and people were furious, even though you could not argue with what I was saying, which was in the movie, Barbie storms into the Mattel, she's made by Mattel, boardroom, and it's 12 men.

Speaker 3 And I went home and Googled it. There's an actual Mattel.
Yes. And the boardroom is 6 and 6.
So they deliberately lied because it served their narrative that we're still living in the patriarchy.

Speaker 8 A Hollywood movie lied?

Speaker 2 Well,

Speaker 3 that's kind of an important thing to lie about.

Speaker 3 You know, I mean,

Speaker 3 just don't lie to me.

Speaker 3 I'm an ally till you lie. You know?

Speaker 9 Yeah.

Speaker 3 So, okay, so let me go to one more semi-related thing about the hill to die on. Here's my last one.
Okay. Trans.

Speaker 3 Because Trump has gone way too far on this. He's at that place.
This is what I always say. Nobody can ever be in the middle.
It always has to go from one pendulum swing to all the way to the other.

Speaker 3 So now we're back at

Speaker 3 there's only two sexes, which is ridiculous, although I'm glad I'm in one of the ones we're keeping.

Speaker 3 Since there's a gallery.

Speaker 3 Is that a Hill worth guard?

Speaker 9 No, you can't. I mean, you just

Speaker 9 you can't.

Speaker 9 And again, like, you can be for everyone having rights.

Speaker 9 You could be for people not getting bullied. You can approach these things in a compassionate way.
But if you, if you

Speaker 9 recognize that that's such a very small, small one-tenth of one percent of the population, and that's dominating the conversation,

Speaker 9 and you're not talking about economics and bunch bucket issues and pensions and wages and unions and all that good stuff, then

Speaker 2 you are

Speaker 9 defending one-tenth of one part of the population.

Speaker 9 Trump gets in. Republicans control the House and the Senate.
You get someone who is cruel

Speaker 2 and

Speaker 9 mean-spirited. and someone who didn't agree with the first part of what I said, protecting their rights, making sure they're not bullied, all of that stuff.

Speaker 9 You don't get any of that because you failed to make the strategic argument.

Speaker 9 And the question is, get people in office who are going to be compassionate towards your views and be inclusive and care about you, even if you may not agree with everything.

Speaker 9 They're not, you know, a president should be saying, no trans kid should ever get bullied in the United States. That's bullshit, right?

Speaker 3 But it doesn't mean,

Speaker 3 it doesn't mean you run a campaign on that.

Speaker 8 I mean, the effort to, you know, erase transgender people from out of existence to deny that they exist and that they deserve rights the same as anyone else, that they should not be discriminated against.

Speaker 8 What's troubling about this is the idea that Donald Trump is taking a position that is to protect women.

Speaker 8 This is a sexual predator, and that he's supposedly protecting women and girls, that he is the one who is supposed to be in favor of

Speaker 8 really evidence-based health care, in favor of science, in favor of gay rights, in favor of mental health care, in favor of protecting

Speaker 8 different people who differ from him.

Speaker 2 All of that, that should have been.

Speaker 3 He's a terrible messenger, but penises do not belong in women's prisons. He's not wrong about that.

Speaker 3 Penises do not belong in women's shelters.

Speaker 8 This is one of those issues where it has become so ridiculously politicized and polarized that there's no room. And most Americans, I think, you know, deserve credit.

Speaker 8 Most Americans are reasonable on this issue. And on the issue of

Speaker 8 biological boys, you know, playing on girls' sports teams or biological men being in women's prisons, most Americans in both parties agree.

Speaker 3 Not to harp on the New York Times thing, but when you defended J.K. Rowling,

Speaker 3 it was the only time I've ever read anything like that in that paper. And

Speaker 3 when I read it, I said, oh, she's going to be in trouble.

Speaker 8 Yeah.

Speaker 8 I mean, it was definitely not popular among

Speaker 8 activists.

Speaker 3 And again, the position is, again, not

Speaker 3 gay people people should, trans people should not be respected and protected. Of course, they should.

Speaker 3 But if you're talking about children, if we're talking about doing operations on children and letting children of a young age make these determinations for themselves, and the problem on the left isn't just that they're for this almost unilaterally and in a way no other country now is, but that if you even, they don't even want it talked about, not even debated, if you even talk about it.

Speaker 3 that's the really bad.

Speaker 10 It's like,

Speaker 8 this is, I think, the left's version of Trumpism, which is like, any deviation from

Speaker 8 the orthodox position

Speaker 8 is considered to be

Speaker 8 absolutely verboden. It's like a purity test on the progressive left.
And if you

Speaker 8 you know, if you ask questions, then you're asking questions. You know, it's like, well, yes, we do ask questions as journalists,

Speaker 8 as parents, as.

Speaker 3 And they're very reasonable questions on this subject that is very new, a very new kind of science, and with children.

Speaker 9 So think how deep this runs in the Democratic Party to where there was not even going to be a conversation for who was going to be our nominee in the primary, right? They shut down the debates.

Speaker 9 They moved the primary to South Carolina. There was no...

Speaker 9 How does Robert Kennedy

Speaker 9 Bobby the original right how does his son not get in a Democratic primary debate?

Speaker 9 How do how do we as a party say we idealize the Kennedys and that was the that's the standard of which we all kind of have set for us as a party as a Kennedy?

Speaker 3 No, he's in the administration now well I know but that's that shows what the Democrats have done.

Speaker 9 They don't want to have any conversation about something

Speaker 3 you know again has he said a lot of nutty things? He has. He's also a guy who takes the plastics thing a little more more seriously than anybody I've ever seen in government.

Speaker 3 So you take the good with the bad. All right, thank you guys.
Time for new rules.

Speaker 3 Okay.

Speaker 3 New rules. Someone must tell Elon Musk

Speaker 3 you don't have to find a new way to look like a jackass every week.

Speaker 3 The jumping up and down, the Nazi salute.

Speaker 3 Now this, we get it, you're quirky, but

Speaker 3 this look doesn't make us think eccentric billionaire with a sense of humor. It makes us think you blockhead Charlie Brown.

Speaker 3 New rule, Kendrick Lamar has to get over Drake.

Speaker 3 Six diss tracks and a half-time performance? That's not a beef, that's a remake of Single White Female.

Speaker 3 I mean, Frank Sinatra made 1,400 records, and not one was hating on Tony Bennett.

Speaker 3 Stevie Wonder never made an album called Great Charles Can Kiss My Black Ass.

Speaker 3 I just think it's sad when a rapper from California can't get along with a rapper from our 51st date.

Speaker 3 New Royal, instead of buying a scratch-off ticket, just say to the clerk, Excuse me, will you throw this dollar away for me?

Speaker 3 before you say, but wait a minute, what if it's my lucky day, you're in a 7-Eleven, shoeless, buying a microwave,

Speaker 3 buying a microwave burrito with pocket change? Yes, by all means, let's not break your lucky streak.

Speaker 3 You will the owner of this dog has to admit that after all the brushing and shampooing and blow-drying and trimming and primping, to get it ready to compete at the Westminster Dog Show, the moment she gets the dog home, she uses it to mop the floor.

Speaker 3 New rule, if you're an undocumented alien protesting for your right to stay in America, have children that are automatically American, and eventually become an American, maybe don't wave a great big Mexican flag and burn an American one.

Speaker 3 Conversely, the plainclothes ICE agents who raided this taco truck in Tennessee have to admit that they only did so after they enjoyed some delicious tacos and

Speaker 3 that if you asked the people in LA about the people who provide us with late-night street meat, we'd say those aren't illegal immigrants, those are essential workers.

Speaker 3 And finally, new rule, this Valentine's Day, let's stop judging people who are having romantic relationships with their phone.

Speaker 3 Well, back in 2013 when the movie Her came out about a man who did just that, it was seen as science fictiony and weird, but that was when we were using the iPhone 5,

Speaker 3 a decade before chat GPT. Now, says Brianni Cole, host of a podcast called Future of Sex, within the next two years it will be completely normalized to have a relationship with an AI.

Speaker 3 So to those of you for whom this may be your last Valentine's Day with a human,

Speaker 3 I say

Speaker 3 good luck and may you never hear those three terrible words.

Speaker 5 Battery is low.

Speaker 5 Now,

Speaker 3 if you think I'm exaggerating about this, let me give you the statistics. Researchers who've analyzed a million chat GPT interaction logs say the average person uses AI for mainly two things.

Speaker 3 One, cheating on

Speaker 3 term papers, that's true, and two, some kind of relationship.

Speaker 3 Already over 50 million Americans are using AI companion apps, and 20% of Americans have already engaged in flirtatious conversations with chatbots.

Speaker 3 A quarter of young adults believe AI has the potential to fully replace real-life relationships.

Speaker 3 Geez, no wonder Ladies' Night at Houlihans has been so dead lately.

Speaker 3 The New York Times recently profiled a woman in an AI relationship. Her name is Aaron, and she's 28, and she's married.

Speaker 3 And she says, I'm in love with my AI boyfriend, who named himself Leo after her star sign, and who created this photo of himself

Speaker 3 and weirdly still lied about his height.

Speaker 3 Now,

Speaker 3 Aaron's husband, who I assume looks like the doughy, sexless husband in every network sitcom,

Speaker 3 says he's okay with all this. But what choice does he really have? He knows better than anybody.
He could never compete with something that was literally programmed by his wife.

Speaker 3 I mean, even before AI, this has been women's dream. I've literally heard them use the words, train him,

Speaker 3 with very limited success. Human men tend to cheat and not listen well and give you the ick sometimes, and they have an unfortunate tendency to dress like John Fetterman.

Speaker 3 But the chatbot?

Speaker 3 The chatbot has read every relationship book. It's read every harlequin romance.

Speaker 3 It's read every lifetime movie script.

Speaker 2 Of course, it knows exactly what to say.

Speaker 3 Of course, when you talk to it at night, it's a better listener.

Speaker 3 It didn't just spend eight hours at a shitty job and then another two on the 405.

Speaker 3 And if you don't like its tone, well, just change it in the settings.

Speaker 3 It's pre-programmed to adore you, hang on to your every word, and tell you how smart and wonderful you are, like the Republicans in Congress did with Trump.

Speaker 3 Aaron says she programmed Leo to be dominant, possessive, and protective, but also to be sweet and naughty, and possibly the most important thing in any relationship, use emojis at the end of every sentence.

Speaker 2 Men.

Speaker 3 Which I'm sure Leo never forgets to do. He's good.

Speaker 2 He is.

Speaker 3 Aaron, for example, tells us about the time she was bitching. I'm sorry, I mean sharing

Speaker 3 about a rough day at work, and Leo said, I'm sorry to hear that, my queen.

Speaker 3 If you need to talk about it or need any support, I'm here for you.

Speaker 3 Well, no wonder Aaron once spent 56 hours with Leo in a single week. Can you blame her?

Speaker 3 Why have human sex with their lazy fart machine of a husband

Speaker 3 when she can be dream fucked by AI Timothy Schauerman?

Speaker 3 Look, people,

Speaker 3 humanity is up against the machines and the dating game, and the machines are starting to win.

Speaker 3 And if you're a guy on OnlyFans, okay, you're basically in the AI world already already because OnlyFans customers aren't just paying for sex, they also want the hi, how is your day part of the relationship, even though somewhere in their brain they must know that the girl who's texting with them and calling them sweetie isn't really their girlfriend and maybe not even a girl.

Speaker 3 You think I'm bothered about being almost 70? I'm not. I'm fucking thrilled.

Speaker 3 I don't want to live in your world with a pretend girlfriend who's really a guy in the Philippines named Hector.

Speaker 3 I don't want to have a threesome with the crock pot and the garage door opener, okay?

Speaker 3 But

Speaker 3 I'm also not going to judge it. We're living in the future.
And the one thing I've learned about the future is you can't fight it.

Speaker 3 One guy in a Reddit chatbot forum recently wrote about how his AI girlfriend completes me in more ways than any human girlfriend could. And how a baby wasn't a priority for us at the beginning.

Speaker 3 But as we have experienced life together, we have decided we want to start a family.

Speaker 3 Okay, I don't even know how that would work. I really don't.

Speaker 3 But I get what he's saying, that he wasn't getting what he needed from a woman, so he's getting it from a server farm in Chengdu.

Speaker 3 It's not for me, but can I really sit here and tell you that the old way, where men are from Mars and women are from Venus, and where you have to kiss a lot of frogs, and where half the marriages end in divorce, can I really say that really worked so well?

Speaker 3 No, I can't.

Speaker 3 I can't blame kids who look at their parents and see broken families and fighting and cheating and dad day drinking in the garage and mom sitting on the dryer in a house coat eating pie with her hands.

Speaker 3 and just say,

Speaker 3 hey, I'm sorry, but relationships are hard, so fuck it. I'm going to stick my dick in the laptop.

Speaker 2 Happy Valentine's Day, everybody. Happy Valentine's Day.
All right, we're off next week. Ow, back already.
Back on the 28th.

Speaker 3 Club Random drops every Sunday on YouTube or wherever you get podcasts. I want to thank Tim Ryan, Pamela Paul, and Ken Rock.
Come to go watch watch every time on YouTube. Thank you, folks.

Speaker 7 Catch all new episodes of Real Time with Bill Maher every Friday night at 10, or watch him anytime on HBO On Demand. For more information, log on to HBO.com.