The Adam Friedland Show - Tom Fontana - The Lost Episodes

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Hello folks, we're back again with our third installment of the lost episode series.

This week our guest was Tom Fontana, who as some of you know,

probably none of you.

Okay.

This week our guest was Tom Fontana who created the show Oz on HBO, which was about a maximum security prison.

He also worked on the legendary television series Homicide Homicide Life on the Street.

It's a really good interview.

I don't know if you guys are going to care, but he's a really good guy.

And I think you could tell this is like, this was recorded 20,

what was it?

2023.

2023.

It's interesting because if you kind of match it with my arc, if you've been following the series, this is when I decided to try and start being...

a good interviewer.

And during the edit, we had to cut out me saying, to some extent,

At some points, I said it every single question,

and at some points, I would say it up to three times during a question to some extent.

I've become a better interviewer at this point, I think.

He's a really good guy, really interesting conversation.

I don't know if you guys are

who fucking cares what you think, honestly.

I'm growing with confidence every day.

I am.

You people have no idea

how high I can fly.

There's a story called Jonathan Livingston Siegel.

Kobe Bryant was between his rookie and second year in the NBA.

He was lifting weights at Gold's Gym in Venice Beach, California, or Marina Del Rey, California.

I don't know why it's important that I remember that.

And because he said he had a boy's body, and he got a call,

and he picked up his phone while he was at the gym, and

the call said, Kobe, it's Michael.

I'd like you to come to Neverland and he said this must be some sort of joke and he hang he hung up and then

he got a call call back shortly thereafter he said Kobe I'm not shitting you it's actually Michael and so he went out to Neverland Ranch and met a fellow fellow icon Michael Jackson and he gave him a book called Jonathan Livingston Siegel about a bird who wanted to fly higher than any other bird.

And at some point, he would fly too high.

I don't know.

What's the story about?

Can someone look that up?

I've never actually read a book.

Basically, Michael sat Kobe down and he said, Listen, I see you

and I know that you're like me.

You're different.

And I know that they will give you everything and I know that they will take it away.

And that is what society did to both those men.

I'm gaining confidence every week.

And much like that seagull, Jonathan Livingston Siegel, in this child's book that Michael Jackson gave Kobe Bryant, I will fly so high that it might kill me.

He flew faster.

He wanted to fly faster and higher than any seagull before him.

He was

bored with squabbling over food.

Jonathan is passionate about flight and pushes himself to learn everything he can.

And every other seagull made fun of him.

This is going to be one of the funniest things that ever happens in American culture.

A fool, a joke, a jester, a clown

will become one of the most important public intellectuals of our time.

Kobe Bryant, Michael Jackson, Adam Friedland.

Talk about Oz a little bit.

I used to watch Oz with my family.

I used to watch Oz with my family when we'd watch on Sunday nights we'd watch the Sopranos and then Oz.

It was kind of the first prestige television series.

It kind of did set

everything in motion for like how television changed.

It preceded the Sopranos.

Were it not for Oz, there would be no blackish.

Next week we conclude our series with the

much anticipated Hassan Piker episode.

So stay tuned for that.

And then the rest is history.

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Our next guest is perhaps responsible for

modern prestige television.

I think.

I thought you were going to say the end of civilization as we know it.

Our next guest is responsible for a majority of modern-day slurs in the American

vernacular.

No.

Everyone, please welcome writer, producer, Tom Fontana.

Normally we do a big, we do a big walkout, but you were complaining that you're old and you're not.

I am old.

I would have tripped on the thing and the face and the rug.

It would have been a great opening.

It would have been funny.

I know.

Yeah.

But now we're.

I'm a drama guy.

I don't do funny.

You don't do comedy.

No.

There were funny parts of Oz.

There were.

I actually thought it was the funniest show on television, but I was in the minority.

I thought it was the sexiest show on television.

Ah.

Good.

Good.

No.

but I actually used to.

We had another guest.

Ernie.

Ernie.

I saw that one, yes.

Who was the warden

of Oz?

And I told him when he was on the, I don't know if it actually made the episode, but I told him I used to watch it with my parents

in succession with the Sopranos.

And watching that amount of...

of prison rape with my mother was quite an experience.

I think it's kind of like made me into the person I am today, for for better or for worse.

For better or for worse.

Well, I, you know, my sweet Sicilian-American mother,

I would call her every Sunday and she'd

tell her what was going on.

And I said, look, ma, there's a show coming on that I did and you cannot watch it.

Under no circumstances, can you watch it?

And she said, what are you talking about?

Of course I'm going to watch it.

You're my son.

I love you.

I'm going to watch your show.

I go, nah, you don't really,

you don't really want to watch.

And she argued and we argued and then she won because she's the mother.

And I said, okay, watch it, but under two conditions.

One is we never speak of it.

And number two, if a friend of yours says, is that your son, Tom's show, deny me?

Okay.

So two weeks go by, nothing on the thing.

And then third Sunday, she says, can I ask you one question about Oz?

And I go, Ma, we said we weren't going to talk about it.

And she goes, just one question.

I go, what?

She goes, are any more of those nice boys going to die?

Yeah.

That's my mother.

Was my mother.

I thought you were going to say that she converted to the nation of Islam.

It's funny.

I had a similar experience.

We used to do a podcast called Come Town.

Oh my God.

Yeah.

Oh my God, it's right.

And for like six months, I didn't tell my parents about it.

And then my dad saw on the internet that I was on a podcast called Come Town.

We tried to choose, Nick chose what he thought was the worst, least appealing name for anything.

And then we used to refer to ourselves as the Come boys.

And my dad called me furiously one day and he said, Do you think a woman will ever marry a cum boy?

And thus far he has been proven correct.

After the women in America see this interview,

your phone isn't going to stop ringing.

Oh my god, I've gotten pretty much every guest laid thus far.

Really?

Yeah, yeah.

We're going to be going to, we're going to.

I gave my dick to the Smithsonians.

Did you?

I don't have much,

you know.

Well, I was going to ask, I could get it back, but it's so funny.

I was going to ask you, actually, we brought up penises within, what was it, 30 seconds of this interview.

But you must have seen probably over a thousand penises in the flesh in your life.

Like a basically like a penis doctor's amount of penises.

I wouldn't say, and it's not like when actors came to audition, I made them drop their drawers and show me their penis.

I sort of went on faith.

You did a casting cast?

No,

I did nothing other than judge their acting.

And, you know.

I understand the character that played Adabisi said that his audition was behind a hole where

he put his member through it.

But apparently he used to take his penis out a lot on set.

Well, what was great about Adiwali was that if it was in the script that it said, Adabisi takes out his penis, he would say, I don't understand why I take out my penis in this scene.

And I'd be like, well, if you don't want to take out your penis, don't take out your penis.

I'm not going to force you to take out your penis.

In the very next scene that we would shoot that day,

he would just take out his penis.

It wasn't scripted.

He would just improv taking his penis out.

Yeah, but he wouldn't do it in a scene where it was written.

He would only do it in the scene after.

I've tried to do that, but we don't have the

we're not shooting in 8K right now, so it wouldn't really pick up.

Strike that from the record.

record.

Strike that from the record, Adam.

No, that's great.

That's a nice prank.

You can really only do that on a production where

it's pretty much all males.

Yes, yes.

There were no women on the set at that particular moment.

Especially in this day and age.

Yeah,

though, anyone who worked on it, we actually had

sexual conversations with the cast and the crew,

even though it wasn't required at the time,

because it was so intense.

We wanted to make sure everybody, I mean, I didn't want anybody to come on there and think,

oh, what did I get myself into?

So I was very serious about making sure that people felt comfortable.

What was remarkable to me is how many people felt comfortable taking out their penis.

Yeah, I mean, I think one thing that's interesting about the show is it was kind of at the forefront of having male nudity in popular media and homosexual sex.

Well we didn't just have homosexual sex.

I thought of all kinds of sex.

Well I kind of

didn't have bestiality.

Yeah.

Like if we had done another season you would have that's where I would have gone.

You would have had animal inmates perhaps.

Yeah I would have had like an aneater or something.

That guy would have been the belle of them all, let me tell you.

Nowadays there's this conversation about representation representation and like homicide was like had some like launched careers of like so many like famous black people.

We actually had

at one time

had more

a more diverse cast.

We had more people of color than we had white people

as regulars on the show.

Because Barry Levinson, who's my business partner, and he comes from Baltimore, so

he knows the territory.

Our feeling was that the show, if we're going to shoot a show in Baltimore, it needed to represent the town.

And you couldn't just say, well, and look,

there's all these white homicide detectives.

It just felt dishonest.

Do you think that homicide could be made nowadays?

Because I think like the nice, the interesting thing about that show is that things weren't.

It wasn't like a car chase heavy programmed.

It wasn't like sexy, it wasn't violent, it was a procedural.

And there was a lot of conversation happening on this.

It was a sloppy procedural because we,

unlike Law and Order, which was running simultaneous while we were on,

we didn't solve all the murders and we didn't actually do the law very well.

We were just, we were more...

We were more

about the characters.

That's what we really cared about, was

who are these men and women who face a dead body every day of their lives?

So, I mean, that kind of comes from your background, I think, probably because you came from the theater.

So like a lot of your stuff, a lot of you from what I've been able to discern, I'm not a very intelligent person, but like a lot of what you do is about the people.

It's not necessarily about like getting from point A to point B or like inter

twist endings or something.

Plot has to come

from character action, not from a writer's need to get to a

story point.

Right.

You know what I mean?

Exactly.

There would be no sopranos.

There would be no fucking entourage if it weren't for you.

Like, HBO Wayne.

Wait, is that something I'm supposed to be proud of?

I think so.

It's an amazing show.

I've seen every episode.

I mean, I don't know if it's.

Is that just wishful thinking on your part that you're going to have an entourage?

There would be no sex in the city were it not for you.

Like,

like, so many of the shittiest women in America have moved to New York City because of you.

It's true.

I think Sarah Jessica said, that's her responsibility.

No, no, no, no.

You were the

You were like literally the first narrative

television program on HBO.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

But I don't think all I did was open the door for other creative people to do whatever shit they wanted to do.

It's not like David Chase looked at Oz and went, I'm going to do the New Jersey gangster version of Oz.

He made his own.

He had a story to tell.

He had characters he wanted to write about, you know.

Okay, I'm hyping it up, and I'm saying, like, what you created created has, but it definitely has been emulated plenty of times.

Like, in terms of prestige narrative television, it is like one of the major artistic mediums today.

And, like, Oz was kind of at the forefront of that.

Well, I appreciate you saying that.

And all I'm saying is that

what we did with Oz was just have an opportunity to break all the rules.

Yeah.

And we broke all the rules.

So all that said was to everyone else coming into HBO is you can break all the rules too.

So you, in the opening credits of Oz, you got the tattoo better.

I did it.

Can we see it?

Yes.

Let's see it.

OZ.

Okay, so that's interesting because I was under the impression that you tattooed DR in front of it

during the recent Pennsylvania senatorial election.

No, but I will tell you something.

I met Dr.

Oz once and he asked me to take a photograph with him and,

well, me, he he didn't care so much about my arm and and he and he he's like leaning in very glutenly he's kind of like a schmuck that guy i i didn't get to spend much time with him so i don't really i mean he certainly came off as a schmuck thank god

in pennsylvania yeah yeah yeah one thing that's interesting to me about seeing viewing you as a playwright and then as someone that likes Oz is that I think that those two con those two things are intrinsically linked in my mind.

I totally agree with you.

Like, Oz is like a play.

Yeah, I mean, it's basically one very large set.

And the, you know, the Harold Peranot character, Augustus Hill, is basically a Greek chorus.

Yeah.

The fact that it's one location, you have the flashback scenes, it feels like a play because of that.

But beyond that, it feels like a claustrophobic show.

And to some extent, it mimics

what incarceration is like for the audience.

Yes.

That was the intention.

To only escape from it in very short bursts of the flashbacks.

And then for Augustus Hill to be a kind of not an escape so much as just

a breath between one horrific act and another horrific act.

How would, like, did you have a Greek chorus in homicide, or was it more like detectives just talking about a case?

Yeah,

the thing is,

with cops, they have to drive to the crime scene and back from the crime scene.

So they have a lot of time to bullshit.

And that was easy, that was fun to write.

With a prison, they don't really get that personal,

you know what I mean, amongst each other.

No, it's all about

like people acting like bigging themselves.

Yeah, the more vulnerability you have, the more in danger you are.

Correct.

So I had to find another way to sort of, you know,

show off.

I would be fucking eaten up on the inside.

I would be too.

No, you'd be all right.

I mean, I would, what would I do?

Join the fucking Aryan Brotherhood?

What does a Jewish guy do on the inside?

Pray?

Pray?

Why don't you tattle?

People should tattle more, I feel like.

Yeah?

I feel like if I'm getting raped every night, I'm just like, I'm in a tattletale.

Why is it?

Oh, snitches get stitches.

What's worse, getting raped in the ass for people?

I'd rather get stitches.

But you could also get stitches.

Well,

let's just hope that you never have to go.

Oh, call me a snitch.

Oh, boo-hoo.

Oh, I'm a snitch.

Or at least I'm not getting brutalized every night.

The thing is, you could snitch, and it wouldn't necessarily change anything.

Oh, I've snitched my way straight to the top.

Really?

I'd be vice warden by the end of it.

So you're currently on strike.

You were telling us you were picketing for the WG.

I am.

I am.

So one of the major sticking points of the strike right now is the influence of AI technology.

Yes.

So we put

into chat GPT.

Oh, no.

We put right a short synopsis of a sequel to the hit HBO Television Oz.

takes place in 2023.

And I think you might be shit out of luck.

I don't know if you're going to...

I think you might be out of a job.

You want me to read it to you?

Not particularly, no.

Okay, but there's some good stuff in here.

There's a character, Jamal the Jester Jackson,

who's a

charismatic and street smart inmate who becomes a focal point as he maneuvers through the complex power dynamics

of the various factions vying for control of Oswald State.

That sounds like your character.

You, how could you would have never been able to come up with Jamal the Jester Jackson?

I mean, this is the computer

taking our job.

This is true.

This is very true.

And I'm very proud of the fact I would have never come up with that.

Why, why?

This is gold right here.

Yeah, Black Joker's got to be the best character.

Black Joker, yeah.

Black Joker.

That would be good.

This is even the name.

How can you, you have never come up with this.

Oz colon reckoning.

Yes.

That's pretty good.

That's pretty good.

Here's one.

I asked them to write it as a comedy.

Okay

Oz colon hilarious havoc they like alliteration the computer it delivers belly laughs while celebrating the enduring bonds formed with within the unlikeliest of environments That's pretty good

That's pretty good.

Can you walk us through the the musical episode?

I think that's one of the best episodes the entire series.

Oh, well, thanks.

Well, what what happened was

Harold Perrineau, who was playing Augustus Hill,

called me and said before the season started and said he'd been offered

a part in Matrix 3, 2, I don't know which number.

Was it also in a wheelchair and Matrix, or am I wrong?

I don't know.

I have to admit, I never.

saw Matrix.

You didn't see it.

I was busy that week.

There's this guy, Morpheus, and then there's this guy, Neo, and he's the one.

Hmm.

The one what?

I don't know, just the one.

Oh, okay.

And then he's fighting the robot.

Okay.

All right.

And the robots are chat GPT.

So Harold says, I got offered this part, but it shoots in New Zealand or some godforsaken.

Yeah.

So he says, look, I can work it out that I can do...

a bunch of Oz episodes and then I'll be gone and then I'll can come back and do a bunch of Oz episodes.

And I said, great, I'll work around it.

Because my attitude about actors is about anybody, anybody in our business is if there's an opportunity, they should be given the opportunity.

They shouldn't be stuck working for me when they could be in Godforsaken New Zealand shooting Matrix 12.

Why Godforsaken?

I think there are good people down there.

No, I know.

I've just, I've never been.

And they're all there.

They're good people you shouldn't go to.

Really?

They're terrible.

I mean, they're all, they were all.

Australia.

New Zealand is fine.

Australia, don't even get me started on those people.

Yeah, yeah.

Because they all were prisoners from England, right?

It's like Oz the Country.

Yeah, Oz the Country, which maybe that's our spin-off.

This is the spin-off.

She?

Jewish Oz the Country, and it's called Israel, and they control a prison called Gaza.

Yeah, they're the one.

Oh, my God.

A little spicy.

Little spicy.

Sorry.

I forget that you work in Hollywood, so you're, by de facto, you've been Bar Mitzvah.

I yes.

I mean, yes.

David Simon did your Bar Mitzvah.

Yes.

Okay.

So, okay, continue.

So he said that he wanted to work on it.

So then how the musical startup is.

So

I, every,

so the episodes that he wasn't going to be around for, I had to figure out something to fill the...

to fill the box, as we called it.

So I thought, I'll do one that's a musical because I had J.K.

Simmons, who before he was the most evil human being on the planet, he was a Broadway musical star.

I had actually seen him play Captain Hook in Peter Pan.

Wow.

And also he was in

some other ones.

Rita Moreno won an Oscar for Westside Story.

Yeah.

Maria.

Maria.

Evan Seinfeld was the leader of the band.

Oh, Biohazard.

No, oh, never mind.

Anyway, if you cast Jerry,

you know about the Saturday Night Live episode.

No, no, no.

Okay.

So the year that, after the, after Seinfeld went off,

he was going to host the first

evening of Saturday Night Live of the new season.

And he came up with this idea that because they ended the show in prison,

Seinfeld would become to Oz.

And

they originally were going to do it with their guys playing,

you know, they were going to do a set with the Oz set, and they were going to do it with their guys playing the Oz characters.

And Seinfeld said, no, I want to shoot it on the Oz set with the Oz actors.

Which was the Nabisco factory, correct?

Originally, yes.

But you should look at this.

I got to watch this.

Was it funny who has seen so many episodes of Oz?

This is like the lost

Jerry Seinfeld episode of Oz.

Well, can you imagine what the Nation of Islam would make of Kramer after what he said?

Yeah, but this was before that.

This was before that.

That was before that.

The joke is that they go to Oz and that Kramer has a racist

breakdown.

I got it.

The open mic night of Oswald Correctional Facility, and then he is shanked by the Nation of Islam.

All right.

Yeah.

Is that one of the AI-generated ideas?

Because

it sounds like it's

it just got a deal at Netflix.

Really?

That idea.

Yeah.

Racist Kramer Prison.

I believe it's called.

Good, good.

I think

just to like, if you'd like, we could talk a little bit about your later projects.

And

we can, I know we're in the middle of a strike right now, so we can't be pitching anything.

I can't really do too much promotion other than to say that I've got a couple of things that will come

the way on the way yes do you have as someone that's been an artist for 50 years like half a century do you what what are your like

lasting creative ambitions like what what drives you like five decades into a career

I would say

as long as I can keep causing trouble

and telling stories as honestly as I can tell them, that's...

If you finish a project,

how does it feel?

Do you hate like what?

I hate it while I'm writing it.

Right.

I hate it while I'm writing it.

Once I'm done with the final mix and the episode is complete, I've never watched my old shows again.

I think that's a pretty consistent answer that a lot of people that have been working

as consistently as you have give.

Like Woody Allen, for instance, I don't think he's ever watched After He Locke's picture.

I don't think he

think he watches anything.

The fact that I'm now being compared to Woody Allen, it's...

Well, you have a lot in common.

You have a lot in common.

Not both friends with Jeffrey Epstein.

What?

I don't have a young wife.

Well,

I don't.

You have an old wife?

No,

I'm a widower.

You're a widower.

Yes.

But you don't want to really talk about that.

This is a comedy show.

I don't know.

We don't know.

We have moments of pathos.

Really?

Yeah.

Okay.

Most of the guests are going to be the first one.

You're not going to cry, huh?

You're the first guest not to cry.

Is that right?

Okay.

Well, I can't fake it, so.

If I was an actor, I would cry.

Would you?

But I can't fake it.

But you have acted.

You're a tattoo actor.

I'm a main titles actor, yeah.

You're a main titles tattoo actor.

Yeah.

I'm actually in the very last episode of Oz.

Are you?

During the fire?

I am in a hazmat suit, and I walk up to the guard station, and I turn off the lights.

Oh, kind of like

in a sitcom, where they look back at the empty apartment and

then they turn off the light and then they lock the door.

Yes, like Mary Tyler Moore.

Yeah,

that's what it was based on.

Though, if she'd have worn a hazmat suit, it would have been much better.

Funny.

I think so, too.

It would have been funny.

Hilarious.

Yeah.

So

you gave Norman Lear his first job in show business?

I actually baptized him.

You did?

Yeah,

he was one of us.

Yeah, that's what happened.

It didn't take.

He's still alive too?

He is great.

Norman is

awe-inspiring.

And I honestly hope he lives forever because as long as he's alive, I'm not the oldest guy in show business.

You can't be the oldest guy.

Mel Brooks is still alive.

That's true.

I thought that after Carl Reiner went, I thought he'd go.

I know, because they were the great.

They'd hang out every single day.

Yeah.

Watching.

Like action movies.

Yeah.

Yeah.

With a TV tray.

Eating deli, watching action movies.

Yeah, I think he said that their favorite movies were movies where they say, secure the perimeter.

Those are good movies.

Do you know that?

Do that with Bye Boys?

Do you know that after Carl died,

Mel Brooks,

he asked if he could still go to the house and watch TV?

And until they sold the house,

they finally sold the house.

That is so funny.

But he went over every night and watched TV.

It was a good TV, maybe.

Maybe better than the one he had.

Maybe better because he fucocked the one he had.

He had fucocked the TVs.

He has to go over there.

There's no other TVs that he could buy.

We are a terrible people, us.

My father is just.

Are you going to cry?

If you're going to talk about your father, are you going to cry?

My father's a widower, too.

He's about to be here this week.

Nice.

I have to go to singles bars with him.

We have to go on the prowl.

You want to come up with me?

I was just going to try to do Jack Benning.

Were you 71?

Yes.

He's 71 as well.

You're kidding.

You were born in 1951?

Yes.

So was my dad.

What was your birthday?

12th of September.

Oh,

he's next week.

Well, he'll be older than me then, and I can't go out with people who are older than me.

What are you talking about?

You guys are peer.

You kind of look similar.

Really?

He's a little bit shorter.

Yeah.

I'm trying to set him up with a guy.

Do you want to fuck my dad?

You know?

No, you guys could be friends.

Sorry that I want you to have a new friend.

Sorry, you have enough friends because you're friends with, what, David Simon and fucking Dick Wolf and whoever.

Is he dead, Dick Wolf?

No, he's not dead.

Oh, my God.

My dad would love this if you guys went out together.

You're like.

just don't want to go out with them.

You just don't want to take away.

I think I'm trying to bun him off and run.

Yeah,

he dresses like you.

No, the three of us would go out.

We'd be

cut off a little bit of a

crack.

I don't know why I'm yelling at you.

I'm a fan.

All right.

Any final?

Can I leave now?

Yeah, you can leave.

You can go.

Where are you going right now?

To see a friend.

I'm going to go to see a friend of mine in the hospital.

Because, listen.

Why do you have to kill the guy every time?

After this, going to the hospital will be more fun.

No, shut up.

I'm just saying.

You've enjoyed this thoroughly.

The best

an hour and a half of the time.

I really put the screws.

No, is it less than an hour?

I know, but it felt like an hour and a half.

Shut up.

Tom Fontana, my best friend, my dad's best friend.

Do you actually add more applause?

Because that sort of sounds pathetic.

No, that's not a sound.

No, no, no.

That's the charm of the show is that it's like, oh,

go into the episode, Adam.

We've tricked another guest into being berated by you.

Thank you so much, babe.

No, thank you.

You had fun?

Yeah, I did.

I did.

So this was better than Charlie Rose or a little worse?

Charlie Rose, you know, Charlie Rose had a

cold.

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