Local Hour: Burn The Tape

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Cuervo. This is the Dan Levitard Show with the Stugatz Podcast.
All right. We're back to the Dan Levitard Show.
Sans Dan's me and your boy Hawk in the building. We had a couple of changes to the shipping container.
Jessica is not here today. Roy's not here today.
But for game two, we're bringing a big dog in. Yeah, we need it.
One of everyone's favorites. Look at him.
Locked in. Locked.
With the glasses on. There you go.
A chest pal from Billy Gill. What up, Billy? Welcome to the show, buddy.
With his own intro music. Hey, guys.
Yeah, we got a flush. We got a flush.
We 24-hour rule. We flush game one.
We on to game two. We came to get a split.
Let's get a split. We need Big Dog Billy in the building to get the split.
How is game one? Because I just said, oh, I saw you guys had Keenan on. We got a flush.
We got a flush game one. We got a flush.
We got a review. So 24 hours.
We already reviewed it. I reviewed the film last night.
Not technically 24 hours. It's like 21 right now.
But just the 24-hour rule is what it's called. I mean, even though it's not 24.
I mean, we could go through it if you want to. I reviewed it.
I reviewed the film last night. Not technically 24 hours.
It's like 21 right now. But just the 24-hour rule is what it's called.
I mean, even though it's not 24. I mean, we could go through it if you want to.
I reviewed the tape. I think Billy needs context so that he knows what to bring to game two.
So first of all, before we get to that, at some point we're going to get into some draft stuff today. We're going to refresh the Uber ratings because we got some, the big T's, we got a means rating, guys.
Get ready. So we're going to update that at some point.
I got a story for you guys about my racist cat. All this is going to happen.
We're also going to discuss the tournament and the tush push rule. But before we do that, this is the last.
We do the little film session right now. This is the last time we talk about it.
If you want to go into it, my assessment of yesterday's show was we got off to a good start. We were great.
We got a big lead. Great start.
We were feeling good, and then they brought out a defense that I wasn't ready for. And as the point guard, I got flustered by the defense.
I was like, what are we doing? Guess? Uh-oh. Turnover, turnover, turnover.
To back, yes. They were ugly turnovers.
We didn't take a timeout. We didn't regroup.
We didn't huddle up. Nothing.
If you can't stop the opposition from scoring, take the timeout, coach. That is like coaching one-on-one.
You don't just let it continue. As we discussed yesterday on the Dominique Fox Show, me and Charlie have a thing where we say accountability plays.
You have to be very accountable when you mess up. I accept that yesterday I was fooling myself.
I parachuted in, and we got off to a great start, I thought. Chris was balling.
We did the intros. We had some good topics.
We was laughing. We had that thread of Leroy.
You hooked us up with that. We was going.
I was like, man, I'm in this. This is easy.
Hit it to my man in the corner. Hit a wide open three.
Fast break. Boom.
Great defense. Rebound.
And then they started throwing guests at me. And I was like, oh, no.
What's happening? Steve Williams, could you beat pro golfers? Oh, wait, hey. That was a little too far.
Who's ass? Which ones could you beat? Could you beat his ass, though? Could you beat his ass? That was good. It got nuts, man.
Could you beat up Tiger Woods? It got crazy. It got crazy for a second, Bill.

The only three things that I heard about yesterday was that.

You asked the caddy who could be in the PGA Tour.

You started the Keenan interview with who did Morgan Wallen call the N-word.

And then Keenan was with us on behalf of Gerd.

And then Mike made fun of him for it.

Mike made fun of him.

I was just ailing.

Misread the room. He didn't like me.
He said, why am I standing? I was like, I don't know. I never thought about it until he said that.
I never questioned why Mike is the only one who ever stands until Keenan Thompson said it. I only stand because Tony stands.
I'm not going to get alpha that way. Yeah, that makes sense.
And then we were finally getting Steve Williams' best answer, and we heard..., boom, boom, boom, boom. In the middle of it.
Hold on. One second.
In Mike's defense. I thought we burned the tape.
In Mike's defense. We got to bury it.
We got to bury it like Rex Ryan did back in the day when he buried the ball. In Mike's defense, I was the point guard, and I clearly couldn't point guard anymore.
So Mike was trying to point guard. Chris, what do you got?

That was another thing he kept doing.

Chris, you have a question for the guest?

Mike definitely tried to bring the ball up the court.

Chris, it is now your turn to ask a question of our guest.

Please, sir.

I refuse to use the backroom communications.

I want it on air.

Mike was definitely an old, like a 90s five.

Not like a today's, not like a yokage. And Mike was like, you know what? I'm putting it on my shoulders.
He brought the ball at the court and pulled from the logo. And they went way over the backboard.
But hand up, I got to know my teammate. Terrible entry pass.
I brought up Jim Laranega. Mistake.
Just derailed the show right there. You got to get it to Mike at his spot.
Just feed him. Michael Sweetney right there in the post, man.
Don't take every shot, buddy. He's still going at it, this guy.
He was so sure about that play call, too. No.
I'm sorry. For the love of God, anything but that.
No more Laranega talk. Now, look, I will say that what they always say, yes, 24-hour rule, but they also say the tape is never as good as you think, and it never as bad as you think and i don't think the game film was as bad as we thought it to be when we left the game because somebody asked keenan thompson that question yesterday and he answered it somewhere and it ended up on variety.com so maybe we shouldn't have came out the gate with that play.
Yeah. Hand up.

Hand up.

But you weren't wrong to see in that opportunity in the defense.

That's why he was wrong.

Because he asked it in such an aggressive way that it wasn't going to get the top.

Before he said hello.

I mean, but we learned from our mistakes.

He went for comedy instead of for journalism.

Yeah.

Which I'm okay with that move with the comedian.

It was a decision.

It was a choice.

A poor one.

I think his response was, this is what happens when Dan's not here.

Yeah, for sure.

Thank you. which I'm okay with that move with the comedian.
It was a decision. It was a choice, a poor one.
I think his response was, this is what happens when Dan's not here. For sure.
Which is like his biggest mistake, thinking that it would be less awkward with Dan in there. But, you know, when you're starting a series on the road, you really just want to take away home court advantage.
I mean, we all had our down. If we take game two,

we got home court coming back for game three. So let's focus

on one game at a time. Game two's right

there in front of us. We know where we went

wrong.

Even though the vine, the Jim Lerner

and Inga vine is right there, we're not going to take it.

It's rare in the first quarter of this game

two, we're like, can you guys believe that game one?

That shit was crazy.

I was trying to start game two and you guys wanted to do an assessment.

And one thing I'm not going to walk away from is some good open criticism of me.

Let's dive into it.

So we good?

Is it all out on the table?

I did say two up, two down for Keenan, and I feel like we glossed over that.

We even forgot about that.

I want to raise my hand with accountability, especially as one of the only two blacks in game two that say I am ashamed of myself. I will be better today.
Yeah, I mean, two black people is not enough. We got to get another black person.
Hey, Carl, find me a black person to join the show today. Literally, two up, two down.
That's what we are today. Alright.

So we're good? We're good. That was the third time

I tried to put the show behind us and then

someone else jumped back in. There was one positive

that we can learn from game one and

you mentioned the hot start which was

you guys were just calling fullback dive.

We had pigskin

as America's pastime

and we talked football to start

and that was a good start that we had. So should we replicate that think we should I think we should perfectly done tush push get that crap up out of the league am I right should we uh you're not one of these guys I'm just playing devil's advocate here because I I don't I don't feel great about punishing somebody for doing something better than everyone else right Because that is the name of sports.
And it does, like we talked about, tie into the legal corked bat situation going on in New York. They're not corked.
It's something. It is also framing matters.
They're just a little misshapen, I guess. It's a design.
Because when you say it's a corked bat, it's suggested they're cheating.

Yeah.

It feels like it.

What I don't understand, if we're moving over to baseball,

what I don't understand is why everyone doesn't have a torpedo bat right now.

Like, what are you doing?

L.A. De La Cruz busted a torpedo bat yesterday.

Two home runs.

Seven RBIs, two home runs.

See?

I think that I need a torpedo bat just to hold while I do the show.

Yeah.

It'll help us in game two, for sure.

So, look, the tush push.

Thank you. two home runs.
See? I think that I need a torpedo bat just to hold while I do the show. It'll help us in game two for sure.
So look, the tush push. What happens, the only reason why I kind of agree is what happened in the Super Bowl.
When the refs were like, we're going to give them a touchdown. Oh yeah, a conference championship game.
I thought that was compelling. I thought the commanders were really going out of their way and were effective outside of that one time where they jumped offside like seven consecutive times.
They let up 55 points. That's a commander's fan.
That's not effective. But, I mean, they were showing that there is a path, and like Hawk alluded to, this play is available to all 32 teams in the league.
Two teams do it exceptionally well, and we're going to stop it because one team is a Super Bowl champion and really does it exceptionally well. No one else does it as good.
So this is the – what happened in the commander's game was on the goal line, the Eagles were trying to do the tush push, and the commanders were completely comfortable with jumping off sides in order to stop the tush push because half the distance to the goal is nothing, and six points is a lot.

So eventually the ref suggested that you do it again, we're just going to give them six points.

Which is, come on, man. We should have made a bigger deal about that as a society.

What the hell are we doing? Who gives you the right? Who gave you the authority to award touchdowns for plays that aren't touchdowns in the conference championship game? Wow, thank you, Tush Push. We had no idea that a ref could do this.
What? I mean, it was such an exciting, captivating moment that we found out that the ref can do that. To answer your question, the NFL bylaws and rulebook give you the right to do it? There's no way that's legal.
It is legal. I've never heard of that ever in my history of life.

So, I mean, I guess you have to take it out to the most extreme is if they just continue to jump off sides, the game would never end. So the ref has to have some sort of power at that point because no time runs off the clock.
The ball moves a smaller fraction of an inch every play. Like, if we're talking about ending this game and having a game,

if you're in that situation, the refs have to have some sort of recourse, right? No. I don't believe you.
So you want that Bill Belichick to be like, you know what? We're going to jump off sides until tomorrow. We're going to have a war of attrition.
It's the only soul. See who gets hungry soon enough.
Who loses more in commercials by continuing to keep this play going?

Was it not the most effective we've ever seen against the Tush Push?

It was.

In that two minutes?

It's a quarterback sneak.

I don't understand.

Just because it looks a little different than your conventional quarterback sneak,

we're going to outlaw it, then outlaw the quarterback sneak.

And the argument is it doesn't look like football. It looks exactly like football to me.
It's a little like rugby. Yeah, it looks a lot more like football.
McVay was like, it's not because they're good at it. It just doesn't feel like football.
Alright, there's a couple of different things. I think that there's a couple of different reasons why I think it should be banned and it's not because of how effective it is.
The idea that it's not against the rules is kind of murky because like you can read the rules a different way to suggest that you're not allowed to help pull or push any player in the league. It's always been against the rules to be able to do that.
Recently they kind of de-emphasized it I guess because it's still technically in the rule book isn't it that you can't aid and assist someone in that situation. The reason why I don't like it is not because it's effective.
I think people want to make it like, oh, you can't stop it, get it out the game. It's because it's the responsibility of the league to create the best product.
And I think oftentimes we think about rule changes as it relates to health and safety, which sometimes is true. But the rule changes, as we've learned in baseball recently, you got to tweak them.
And the NFL and even the NBA has been comfortable with tweaking rules in order to keep the entertainment quality there. And I think Mike is right.
At this point, the tush push doesn't bother me as far as like entertainment quality. There is some suspense to it, but I do think that it encourages us to a version of football that we don't like.
Because if the rules aren't going to make it so you can't do it anymore, then the coaches and general managers have to design plays and draft players in order to stop it. And I think that sends us in a path that's less fun to watch.
It's getting stopped. I mentioned that there are two teams that are really good at it.
The other one's the Buffalo Bills. Famously, in their conference championship game, they got stopped.
Now, it might have been a controversial call, but it wasn't the only time in that game. In a short yardage situation, Buffalo lined up and Casey was ready for it.
I think teams just got to get better at it. And I did think towards the tail end of the season, you started seeing teams find ways around this.
Ironically, one of the best teams at it is the Arizona Cardinals with tiny Kyler Murray. So it's like we talked, there's all the, like, every single discussion is like, will Jalen Hurts squat 600 pounds? Yeah.
Nah. Five foot nine, quarterback.
I mean, I've seen Kyler Murray run the ball. I'm not sure that he doesn't also squat 600 pounds.
I was going to say. That's a good point.
That dude's got some power. He's probably all thighs He's actually.
But it goes to people make the argument, like, if you don't like it, you stop it. Like, it's a manly thing.
Like, my pushback from the defensive perspective is, why y'all got to push? If we want to do a quarterback sneak and you want to go mano a mano, your centers and guards against ID tackles and linebackers, then do it. Tell Saquon to get his big quad ass out of there and stop pushing.
It's not as if Mekhi Becton ain't big enough. I want to see that.
That, to me, feels like a fairer matchup and a more interesting and a less lopsided play. Should a team draft Desmond Watson, the 464-pound defensive tackle from Florida, one of the NFC East teams, just for tush-push situations? Yes, and so we can just run a jet sweep on his ass.
Exactly. Every time he's on the field just to say, hey, we took away.
It's 10 on 11. Let's go far left.
Job finished by Desmond Watson. Good job, buddy.
Desmond Watson is not a great college football player. He's just 460 pounds.
464. Yeah.
And he wore number 21, which is funny. Perfect.
Perfect. I know it's like an old fogey take.
Get him running, boy. Get him running, though.
He can get them knees up. 464? Grande Porto Gusto.
That guy sucks. It's like a 7'9 college basketball recruit that's like outside the top 100.
What's going on here? How is that? Didn't he walk on? How are you 7'9

and not one of the top

100 high school basketball players?

Florida has a 7'9 guy too. Olivier Rue.

I thought that's who we were talking about.

Hand up. My bad.

We can bounce back from that.

I know it's an old fogey take, but there were

people that were doing this for forward

passes.

I don't understand it. It's available to everyone.
So, first of all. Everybody could do it.
What if they just tush-push all the way down the field? I would love to see that. What if they're averaging three yards a clip and they just say, you know what, we're just going to tush-push this entire drive.
I'd love to see that. You're acting like there isn't other unfair things in the sport.
I think Patrick Mahomes is pretty unfair. Let's outlaw him.
This is amazing, Mike. Your two takes, NFL executives agree.
This is an anonymous NFL executive said that if these guys were around during Johnny United's years, they'd be banning the forward pass. And Mike Frabel literally said, well, I guess Lamar Jackson's unfair.
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Stugatz.

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This is the Dan Levatard Show with the Stugatz. Nick Sirianni should start next season if they don't ban it.

The first drive of the first game while the entire country is watching.

No, not it.

No, the first drive should just be tush push the entire drive to see how far they can go. With just the Tush Push.
That's what will get him. He has nothing to lose.
He won the Super Bowl. I think his fan base who hates him would love him for doing that.
His fan base who hates him. He won him a Super Bowl and they still don't like him.
That's crazy. Desmond Watson looks like Big X the plug while he is jumping and running, by the way.
Did he not? Yeah. It did look like Big X.
But he also played college football. Yeah, he did.
Did he? Yeah, he did. He wasn't any good, obviously.
I think he went to a D2 school, D3 school. I've seen Big X on stage.
I'm pretty sure he don't look all athletic. He don't be moving like he could.
He don't got a lot of, like, umph to his experience. That outside zone would have gained Big X hell.
Push, push, push, though. Oh, Big X would have plugged.
Might have been the plug for the commanders. So the thing I would push back against you, Mike, I think it's fair.
All the things that you're saying is fair. However, it doesn't address the point that I was making.
Like, my point isn't about it's not fair. You know why you don't outlaw the forward pass? This is awesome.
You know why you don't outlaw Patrick Mahomes and Lamar Jackson? This is awesome. This end, it encourages people to get faster, more athletic, more fun to watch people onto the field in order to compensate for Lamar Jackson and Patrick Mahomes and also the forward pass.
You've got to get a more aerial, more more fun game and I feel like some of the rules changes in football were partially about moving us away from a more physical game in the 90s but also encouraging passing because it's more fun to watch and that is my argument for why I don't love the tush push because you end up in a situation where you start to increase the value of players like Desmond Watson. I'm okay with that, honestly.
I'm serious. I know you are.
Like the big guy. I don't mind.
I don't want it all the way down the field, but I don't mind a package where it's like, okay, you got your tush push. Well, they're bringing in their two 400-pound guys.
I like specialists, and there's something to be said for it. They leaned into their identity.
They built an entire roster for those situations, and it kind of got all boiled down to that one play. It took every single guy on that side of the ball to basically buy in and execute that play better than everybody, and now you're going to change the rule, and you have to look at your roster and try to figure things out.
I don't think it's fair. Right.
Well, I mean, Howie Roseman's roster construction strategy is something that Charlie loves because it's pretty plain and simple. Him big, him fast, him strong.
Him an eagle. Him an eagle, right? Him Georgia Bulldog.
Yeah, yeah. Because I believe Kirby Smart also has the same strategy.
It's like, hey, get the biggest, fastest, strongest guys. And so I don't think the two— Who drive really fast.
They got to drive super fast, man. Can we talk for—this is a small detour.
Georgia had a receiver named Nitro Tuggle driving 107 miles an hour. No pun intended on the detour.
That rules. He should not get a ticket if your name is Nitro.
He's going to make a a great eagle. So I think what I'm having a hard time with is when I present my reasoning,

no one refutes the reasoning that I've suggested.

You keep twisting it back to something else that I don't think matters.

I will refute it.

I like watching a team try to stop an unstoppable play.

And I think that there was high drama in those conference championship games

because Washington did make Philadelphia think about it.

Thank you. watching a team try to stop an unstoppable play.
And I think that there was high drama in those conference championship games because Washington did make Philadelphia think about it. Philadelphia was hopping off sides.
Philadelphia was trying to do different things out of it because Washington was providing an issue. And in the AFC championship game against a team that is second most famous for doing this, there was a play that decided the game by Kansas City stopping it.
So I think it's high drama. I'm sorry i was gonna say i don't think you think there was drama in that in the nfc championship game of the super bowl as a command the second saquon barkley took that first run to the house the super bowl was over in five minutes well what i'll remember forever is the seven straight plays my guy from the commanders hopped over the line of scrimmage.
Frankie Louving. The official to say, hey, you keep doing this.
I'm just going to give him the touchdown. That was amazing.
That was crazy talk, man. I still don't think – I don't understand where that ref gets off.
I'm pissed about that. Does every ref have a different number? Okay, mine's six.
Then I'm giving it to you. For me, it's ten.
I'll wait for ten. I think the refs should have names on the back of their jerseys, and they should get on the podium after the game and go through the game tape like we had to do today.
There's no accountability for you just to say, hey, I'm all of a sudden the touchdowns are, and I'm just going to decide you get a touchdown and you get a pick over there because I like the way that you've been paying attention this game. No, that's not how this works.
I was with you until we handed out interceptions. That's what I'm saying.
When does it stop? I'm on board with handing out picks, so I'll take a couple more. I'm pretty sure Charlie has the answer for this, but what makes a tush-push the tush-push? Having a big running back push your quarterback sneak, so that's specifically what you outlaw? Because you're not going to outlaw the quarterback sneak, right? Because a white guy was really good at it and Tom Brady, so we're not going to do that.
It's the scrum formation, too. It's even some of the linemen get pushed.
So you can get a bigger push forward from in-line tight ends and fullbacks. But I'm just saying, how do you legislate it? No, you cannot.
I think it's already in the rule books. You cannot help a runner.
You can't push from behind. You can even add to it that you can't push a guard from behind.
But linemen do that a lot. I love when there's like a strong.
I love when the pile moves like nine yards. You see like a guard come flying up and it pushes it across the first down.
That's a great play. Yeah.
I want that still. That's in the course of the game.
I don't mind that as much. And I think that when it's an obvious thing that's like clearly bad for the game, the decision is easy.
In the course of a game. All of this is.
The torch push is also in the course of a game. I'm saying that it's in the course of a play, a normal play.
It's like a slot receiver catches an out and the guard just hauls ass downfield to help out. That's different than lining up.
It's not a different play than they're all football players. I get what he's saying.
I do, but they say, his explanation is tough. I'm trying to...
Everyone gets it. Will they still have that? What we were just talking about.
If they ban the tush push, will the linemen still be able to do that? I would prefer them not to, but I'll make the concession that they can. Like, get out of here.
The guy has the ball. Let him run and tackle.
You flying downfield throwing your fat-ass body into a group of football players feels stupid and unnecessary. I've gotten hurt multiple times that way.
Yeah, like, get out of here. Stop it.
Your job is to block. Somebody protect me.
But whatever. What I don't like is the tush-push formation.
And I think that it's easy when there's a rule that is obviously bad for the game. I think it's hard when you have to project how it will impact the game going forward.
Which is why I agree with you, Mike. Last year, the Tush Push, it's overpowered, but it doesn't bother me near as much as I guess.
And this is my fault. What I'm projecting, it will do because people, if you don't outlaw it.
And I know you said some people found a way to stop it. It's overwhelmingly unstoppable.
If you don't do something about that, then the teams have to do something about that, which I think pushes us in a direction that I thought we were staring away from, and we love the way football is played now. I like your point about the formation.
What if you have to declare that you're going to tush push, and then the defense gets their team ready for the... Because the real fear is that you can't commit too much to the tush push because they'll throw it deep.
But if you want to do the tush push, you declare, you get your tush push team ready, we get our tush push team ready, and we just – The head coach hits his butt to signal it. Yeah, and it's like, yo, tush push team.
It becomes a special team. We're going to make it look less like football.
Let's just go. How about it's just four guys on the line? I'll tell you one thing.
Trent Richardson would have had a 10-year NFL career as a Tush Push specialist. Coming under center for one play.
That's really what it is. It's special teams.
That's why we're missing it. We just cracked the code.
It's a special teams play that doesn't fit within the other course of plays, much like all the other special teams plays. I would say that one thing about the tush-push that I like is it encourages more aggression from coaches on fourth down.
It does somehow, though, discourage aggression on third down, which is like we don't take that into account. Also, when it's third and six, one of the great beauties about being on defense, third and six, we know you're throwing, here comes our best blitz, here comes our nickel and dime package.
Now it's like third and six. Y'all going to run it again? And I get what you're saying.
That's whack. What do you mean it's whack? You're making defense harder.
Come on, man. It's a game of football.
That's not the argument I'm making, Mike. Of course you like his take.
I don't know if you got them. Is this an offense-defense thing? I don't know if you got this.
It's already really difficult to stop these offenses, and now we're going to change obvious passing situations just because they're good at running? That's not fair. That's actually the best probably take for in – What am I saying? You're trying to agree with Mike.
Call timeout. You're trying to agree.
Let's regroup. 20.
I got a rebuttal tonight. Because here's my thing really quick.
I've been flip-flopping back and forth, arguing both sides of the take. Nobody's noticed.
No, no, no. What's your doing? I forgot which take I was arguing for in that moment.
I know you said that I was really right with something. Back and forth the entire conversation.
I've been there. What you got to understand is I think that you came in today thinking like, hey, I got my man.
I'm going to be everything for my guy today. But don't worry.
I'm doing a lot of jobs right now. Don't worry.
I got to get back into my system. I got this hosting thing under control.
You do. I got it under control.
Maybe we get rid of motion, too. That's hard to cover.
See, now you're being sarcastic, I feel like. You like declaring plays.
I hate that. I hate that they have to declare on-site kicks now.
Yeah, I don't like that portion, but I do like the idea to even the playing field because there's no way you can stop the tush push in a way where it seems fair for both sides. And the argument Mike was making that, well, he was saying it in jest, but in sarcasm.
But it's true. All the rules do benefit the offense, so now you give them another one.

When is the last defensive rule?

Not never. Oh, you know what it is?

They reemphasized the legal man downfield.

They had a whole season of RPOs where the offensive lineman would be four yards downfield

and the quarterback would pull it and throw a slant.

And defenses, you may think that we look to see if the ball is handed off. We get our run pass keys from the offensive lineman.
So like it was really unfair to be like, hey, we're running the ball. Look at this tackle who's three yards downfield.
Psych your mind. So they also made, did they take away cut blocks? Yeah, they took, that was a health and safety thing.
Not completely, but you can't cut block from the outside in anymore where you used to be able to do that. They also took away the defender's ability to cut.
So as a cornerback, they will run screen passes. Well, that plays into this as well because in the tush push, if I'm on the D-line, can I just dive at the offensive line's legs? You can.
Okay, so they didn't take that away. Alright, well I got nothing for you, Unique.
I wish we had an evolution of the tush push, right? I'm looking at the formation here, and I feel like if we had a wildcat come out of the tush push, right, where Jalen's down there, they hike it to Jalen, and then he just passes it between his legs to someone else or just pitches it out to Dallas Goddard, who's wide open because everyone's just expecting the tush push. The problem is it's so effective that they don't need to change the play, right? If they were blocking it, you could start experimenting with stuff like that, but they don't even need to because they just get the first down and they get four more downs.
They've had a couple plays off of it that they just do just because. But to Mike's point, if I were to switch sides of the argument, the position would be someone should stop it because then it would lead to something else.
But what do you think about it? My thing is, Mike, you are a noted non-NBA ball watcher because the game has gotten boring and redundant and homogeneous. You're asking them to do that into the NFL.
Just make it a more boring game. I don't think that that play happens that often, where it's every time down the court, they're looking for threes.
Every play, every snap, they're not looking for a tush push. So I understand the point, and I understand why people are fearful, but it's been around for three years now.
And so one team's doing it all the time. They're famous for it.
None of the other teams are doing it as well. They're in my division now.
That's a problem. So my point, and maybe I'm wrong, but I think that's an excellent analogy that you bring up, the three-point line.
When it was introduced, it took decades before it became a homogeneous part of the game. My point is we keep getting back to why this matters in competition and saying, whoa, defense is just being soft.
My point is, and it's a hard thing to do in professional sports, it's a business with two goals. It's one to win and, well, actually it's probably one to make money and two to win.
And I agree wholeheartedly. If we're focusing on the winning part of it, yeah, that's fine.
But if you're talking about the make money part of it, I do believe that this is a step in a direction that I could be completely wrong. Maybe if we allow this to keep going, it does not go down a path that makes the game less entertaining or less interesting.
But to the point about three pointers, let's add three pointers. They're fun.
This is cool. This is different.
Now we're in a place in modern basketball where the three point shot has taken over to the point where some people complain about it. Okay.
No, I'll listen to that NBA point because it's a good one. Look, the Phoenix Suns were really exciting because they kind of saw the inefficiencies out there, DeAntoni, then Daryl Morey, and then after Phoenix had their success with it, it took a couple of years, but then every team in the NBA started playing like the Phoenix Suns and having more possessions.
Literally in every level of football, one team's doing this to this level. You're not really seeing it in college football.
You're seeing, well, high school football, who knows? You get all sorts of kooky offenses there. But in terms of football top-down, it's the Philadelphia Eagles.
We haven't gotten to the point where it's been oversaturated and every team in the league is doing it and ruining the game the way that the Phoenix Suns revolutionized the NBA and to a degree kind of ruined it to the point that I'm here saying that we got to back up the we got to make the courts bigger we got to back up the three-point line because they've mastered this they've cracked the code baseball they cracked the code and then baseball had to come in and correct it I don't think we're at that tipping point it's one thing to be fearful of a tipping point but when one team is doing it that much better than everybody else it kind of feels like sore loserdom let's not get to the tipping point that to me is my point but can we are you think you're capable of switching sides of the argument yeah yeah if every team is doing the tush push and it becomes like i'm asking man this is so boring every play like this is so predictable like i'll i'll come around on i used to love threes and i'm not asking if i can convince you to i'm asking that if i decided that you are a lawyer and it just so happens that your firm decided that you're going to argue the other side would you be capable of doing that i wouldn't take the case this year i wouldn't i wouldn't recommend it it was a tough it was a tough go around for me this morning i was trying to go back and like hey i'm all all opposition. I think it's great for football.
I only take cases I can win. I do.
So I was going to try to do that in order to put me on the other side of the argument. But because I wanted to make the point that I think what I am – the trap that I could be falling into is I could be trying to protect against something that is not going to happen.
So like if the element of the tush push stayed the way it was this season, I don't have a problem with that. I agree with you.
It's entertaining. My concern is what it then leads to from an entertainment standpoint.
And a lot of the reason why the NFL has not found itself at this tipping point for so many different issues is because you know what happened? When things happen that impact the entertainment value of the game, NFL address it. When Tom Brady gets his knee hit at the beginning of the season, I'm in the league as a defensive player like, that's terrible.
You're doing everything. You make it so hard.
Where can we hit him? Hit him between here and here. It's not good.
But when we have Tom Brady's career extended and we have quarterbacks healthier or longer I recognize that that is better for the health and the interest of the game. And they didn't wait until four quarterbacks got their knees torn up.
And that's just the point that I'm making is you stay ahead of these things. This would fall into category for me of them staying ahead of these things.
And the reason why the tradeoff for me is all decisions are about tradeoffs. And so if I see this and if we're willing to understand that the Tush Push has a 10 percent, 15 percent, 30 percent chance of metastasizing into a version of football that we don't like, is that worth it to save the Tush Push? I would say the Tush Push is not fun or interesting or exciting enough for me to keep in the game if I'm willing to accept that where it could go in the future is somewhere that makes football less like the football that we enjoy.
That's a great argument. That's a damn good argument.
I would just say, like, let's wait until it gets to that point. Yeah, like, let's have it actually tip.
But what is it in place of, the tush push? Conventional sneaks? Or a punt. It's more fun than a punt.
It is. And if it extends an offensive drive, which means the most points and more offense.
Isn't it technically making it more entertaining? You said it's more fun than a punt because you scared to return punts. No, I'm a gunner.
I'm also scared to return punts. Punts are fun.
So it's more aggressive offenses and knowing that you have four downs to play with. Fair catches.
I agree with you. We all go to the bathroom on punts, man.
I'm so scared to return punts. Punts are fun.
But so is more aggressive offenses, and knowing that you have four downs to play with.

Fair catches.

It's like we all go to the bathroom on punts, man.

By all means, you are right.

But I don't think that that's what would happen.

In this version of the NFL where coaches are being a lot more aggressive

on fourth downs, you're saying that now on fourth and one,

if we take the tush push away, all these hyper-aggressive coaches

who are going for it on fourth and three in their own territory are going to all of a sudden say, oh, well, we can't push, guys. Well, we can't push.
That one yard is so scary now. Like, I don't think that's going to happen.
They're going to do an actual football play. They're going to hand it to Saquon Barkley.
And I'm going to be like, hey, this is fun. That might go for 60.
This is cool. When Bill Goldberg was in WCW and he started out his career with this undeniable streak.

Yeah. like hey this is fun that might go for 60 this is cool when bill goldberg was in wcw and he started out his career with this undeniable streak yeah we didn't just outlaw the spear and the jackhammer no kevin nash got a taser and and did what he had to do to end the streak that's how you stop that's how you stop a football play with a taser well what i'm saying is can is can I see someone stop it? I think it's going to be high drama when a team, and the day is going to come in a big moment where a team finally has an answer for this, and that will stand the test of time, especially if it's in a game of import.
That's going to be a moment in time. I like that take.
I love that take. That's a good take.
And if you could promise me, if you could guarantee me that that is how the tush push ends, I would sign up for it. But what you're saying is...
Let's have a loser leaves town, Matt. However, the point I'm making is maybe that's not how it ends up.
Maybe no one figures out how to stop the tush push. And then maybe every other team in the league starts to draft in order to run their own tush push and to stop the tush push.
And then we end up with a league where one Tony Saragusa, awesome. We end up with a league where everybody got three Tony Saragusas and we like, why they don't throw the ball no more? Come on, man.
I'm conceding that I don't want to see that either. And you're saying wait until we start seeing it.
I don't mind it.

I'm okay because I like now

there's another entertainment factor. Hold on.

The smallest guy in

football is now like, I want more of them big dudes?

I want more physical

nature on the field, man. I miss it.

It's the one thing you don't get in corporate

America. There is no 40 under

40 that can get, you know,

hit that.

I miss it, man. Alright?

So I need it in my football. But I do like Thank you.
America. There is no 40 under 40 that can get, you know, hit that.

I miss it, man. Alright?

So I need it in my football. But I do like

the entertainment version of it. Yes, the game

entertainment in and of itself. But I

think the thing that we a lot of times

miss is like the character arc

of football. Meaning like we

go through the draft. What did this

guy run in the 40? Or how did this guy perform in college?

When he transferred here and there, he's a five-star

recruit. Does he perform? And over time

you learn the characters. And with the Lamar