South Beach Sessions - Eric Musselman

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Welcome to a California-style South Beach sessions.

We've been doing this out here because we can get closer to basketball royalty.

I think of this name.

I think Musselman.

I think Van Gundy's.

I think Hurleys.

I think about people who were okay at basketball, but really good at teaching basketball.

So he is now the coach at USC.

He's had 24 players that he's sent to the NBA, 11 of them in the last

five years, six years.

And also beyond, what is it, six tournament appearances, two Elite Eights, and now you're the coach at USC?

So, thank you for joining us.

It's been quite the journey.

Can you start right now and name all the teams you've coached?

Head coach and assistant, start at age 23 with the thrillers.

Let's see if you can do this.

Can you go through all of them?

Do you think you can do it quickly?

I don't know, Dan.

First of all, thanks so much for having me on.

I'm going to go as quick as I can.

It would be Rapid City Thrillers, Minnesota Timberwolves, Minnesota Timberwolves back to Rapid City Thrillers, Rapid City Thrillers to the Orlando, no, to the

West Palm Beach, Florida Beach Dogs.

Florida Sharks.

Florida Sharks USBL was in between.

Chuck Daly then hired me with the Orlando Magic.

Orlando Magic

to the Atlanta Hawks.

Atlanta Hawks to the head coach of the Golden State Warriors.

Golden State Warriors.

to the media world where I did NBA radio game of the week.

That doesn't count.

Let's go to Memphis.

We're going to Memphis.

We're going to go to Memphis with Mike Fertello.

From Memphis to the head job of the Sacramento Kings, from Sacramento to three years of being a dad, back to the G-League

in Reno with the Reno Bighorns, to Arizona State as an assistant coach, to Louisiana State as an assistant coach, to the head coach of the University of Nevada, to the head coach of Arkansas, to now being at USC.

What I missed, Dan.

You missed the Dominican team, the Venezuelan team.

What about the L.A.?

Did you mention the Defenders?

I did not mention the Lakers G-League team either.

And you got LSU.

LSU was in there somewhere?

Yes, I did get LSU.

All right, so congratulations.

You did pretty well.

But along that path, what would you describe if you had to choose in the extremes, the best year that you had and the worst year, the place where you felt like you were most on an outpost and not enjoying yourself coaching?

The hardest experience as a coach, for sure, was the Sacramento Kings, and there's not even a close second.

And then I would say best, almost every one of those other places, I loved.

One, found something outside of basketball that I really loved about the location of all the spots that I've coached at.

And then the people that I've worked with, all super positive experiences.

Even Golden State, it's super unique, Dan, that you could coach for two years, get fired,

and still wear like the team apparel and team gear with pride.

Like I have no problem walking the strand in Manhattan Beach with a Golden State Warrior shirt on, even though I only lasted there two years.

No Sacramento gear?

I'm not going to wear King's gear.

That's the one gear that I probably will not have on.

But what happened there?

So why was that the worst of the experiences by far?

Yeah, I think a whole bunch of things.

One,

as a young coach, you get an opportunity and you feel like, I don't know if I'm going to get another opportunity.

So it's a head coach of an NBA team.

But when you replace a really, really good coach or a Hall of Fame type coach, which Rick Adelman, I was replacing somebody that had great success, and they were knocking on the door of

conference championships and knocking on the door of every year coming into thinking about potentially playing in an NBA championship series.

That's a hard thing, especially for a young coach, to replace an older veteran coach with an older veteran team, with a general manager that had been with that head coach, and they shared the same philosophical

opinions on how the game should be played, which differed from

my opinion on how I wanted our teams to play.

All of it's lonely.

It just all becomes lonely.

That feels not supported uh we'll get i want to get to the i'll get to the happier stuff with you but i want to examine what gets learned amid failure as well and and misery so uh you've you love coaching i imagine you can unspool quite the poem right now if i just ask you to explain to me what basketball has done for you and how you love basketball but that had to be a misery what you're describing to be at the top of your dreams to be failing to feel unsupported and it scarred you in a way that you're still saying no i probably probably didn't love coaching that year because there's a helplessness in coaching.

You guys are kind of control freaks.

You want to like, and then once you throw it all out there, it just the ball bounces the way it does, and you don't have much control over anything anymore.

It's frustrating.

So I can't even imagine what that was as a misery for you to get fired there to feel everything that you felt there.

Yeah, I think that, like, when I look back on it, I took the job for,

I was going through a divorce at the time.

And so for me, Sacramento brought me within a 55-minute drive to my sons.

So when I look back and reflect on how I could have been better, one, don't get a DUI when you're in training camp.

That was the kiss of death.

And that's a mistake I made.

Have to live with it.

Probably kept me out of the NBA 10 years after that.

Now, as time's gone on, then it becomes kind of your own type decision.

But I was trying to be a dad to two sons.

So we would have a King's practice, and then I would drive, it's 55 minutes from Sacramento to Danville, California without traffic.

And then you add in the traffic.

But I was trying to go to every little league game.

So if you have two sons playing little league, they're probably going to be almost six to seven days a week when you got two little league games or AAU basketball.

I didn't want to miss anything.

So I was practicing, getting in my car, driving an hour, watching a two-hour game of Little League, driving back, having practice, and then maybe the next day going to watch my other son.

So I was stretched too thin,

trying to be parent, single, dad.

And then 50% of the time, I had my two sons with me as well, whether they were with me in Sacramento on the weekends,

going on road trips with me.

So

probably could have been more focused strictly on the job, but I don't regret the parenthood part of it at all.

So I'm kind of conflicted.

Well, what a weird thing.

The reason I wanted to take some of this path with you is you're at your dreams, ostensibly, right?

You're running an organization.

You're doing the biggest thing at the highest level.

You're replacing a legend.

And the personal life that I would imagine, that if you've been sculpting basketball all your life, there has been imbalance that has made relationships make women understand this man's gonna be on the road a lot, he's gonna be obsessed.

Even when he's here, he's not gonna be here because his mind's gonna be there.

So, I would imagine that that year, at your height of your dreams, a total misery because you got both things happening and you're and you feel guilty that you're failing at both.

Because

how?

How do you do both of those things if they're not tied together?

And I would say that the uncomfortableness, the

regret, the thought process of

not being all in was more the basketball than the, because I was all in on my sons.

So I don't regret driving.

When I drove, I was never upset that I was in a car.

Forgive me, I meant whatever the guilt of divorce is.

Yes,

I just meant in general the fact that you had found yourself, that you had to make that drive to be dutiful, loving parent, because you had to overextend yourself on no, dad loves you just as much as he always has.

No question.

And I would say that that experience that you're referring to, Dan, was probably more in Memphis when the divorce started to happen.

Then it was super

like now the personal thought process of, wow, I'm not going to be with my sons every day.

Even though I had already taken a job in Memphis to work for Mike Fratello, Jerry West was the general manager.

I made that decision, but we were still married at the time.

You know, and then when the marriage broke off, I was still working in Memphis, and that's probably the most challenging from a personal standpoint to try to deal with.

And you're right, it's like it's this two conflicting worlds for coaches in probably any sport.

Well, your balance in general when it comes to family, what has been convenient is the sons just come work for you or you go work for dad.

Your family has always been a basketball family.

Did your kids even have in their minds a choice?

Not saying that you wouldn't give them a choice, but they were going to go into basketball, right?

That's what the Musclemans know.

Well, for sure, with me, personally, Dan, I knew nothing else

because I would wake up, I would go to school, and then my mom would drop me off at my dad's practices.

And then every weekend, I would go on a road trip.

I was a ball boy.

I wanted to be the ball boy of the opposing team's locker room because I wanted to see what diagrams were written up.

So for me, I knew

that's all I knew.

I didn't know how to change the light bulb.

My dad never took me golfing.

No hobbies with me.

My sons are a little more well-rounded, probably because of the divorce.

So they got 50% of the time away from my inner world of basketball.

So I think they were experienced.

They got to experience way more things than I did, more vacations, more worldly things.

And I really wasn't sure where my sons would go.

Maybe in their eyes, they had no choice.

I certainly had no choice.

My dad was my best friend.

He was my idol, and I knew I wanted to walk in his footsteps no matter what.

The firings that I saw my dad go through, the brutal losses.

For me, it was all good.

Like, that was the greatest world you could have, even though I knew that there was,

I had much more misery at times than maybe some of my fellow students in high school that had the same normal life their whole life and went to the same

because he was bringing home the losses, just the weight of them, just because the lifestyle was pressurized?

Yeah, and I don't even know, Dan, if he needed to bring home the losses.

It's just you go to school the next day.

And, you know, like when I was in high school, my dad was coaching the Cavaliers.

They were not very good.

Ted Steppian was the owner.

The NBA had to put a clause in on trades even and prevent them from trading first-round picks.

So

that was hard, you know, like you go to a high school game, a road game, and people are throwing hot dogs at you and they're making fun of, you know, my dad was in a situation too, Dan, where it was kind of like Billy Martin and George Steinbrenner.

Like my dad would get fired from one position and hired in another position within the organization.

So super hard to deal with, but I think it, it, it, it, I got to experience stuff that maybe a 30-year-old would experience, you know, and I think it toughened me up, it hardened me, but also I kind of embraced the, you know, the wildness that can, that can happen in a coaching lifestyle.

How hard was your dad on you?

How hard

was the experience of being his son and knowing nothing else and working for, with, and around your idol?

He was, first of all, my dad was like as old school as it could be.

Like, he was an old school,

tough, hard-nosed coach.

But I also felt like he probably loved me as much as any dad that I've ever seen.

My sister

and her relationship with my dad was so loving, you know, because she wasn't doing the sport that,

you know, that he played.

He played three sports.

So when I played Little League,

if I struck out, we were probably going back to have batting practice that night.

So you had to meet his standard for excellence and expectations in his area of expertise.

I would say yes, whereas my sister,

you know, they would play tennis together and it'd be competitive and all that, but not to the level, you know, with, you know, that I had.

You know what I mean?

Like I would wake up and maybe on Christmas Day, I would do ball handling drills.

But loved you with warmth or loved you because you always knew that he was there to support everything you were doing?

Was it with words and with warmth or was it?

No, it was, yeah.

I think sometimes, you know, there's some old school,

a lot of hugging,

a lot of physical, you know, like he would hug me and tell me he'd love me, he'd kiss me on the cheek.

Like, there was, so there was super love, but super discipline, too.

You know, like,

you know, if I didn't hit the number of points that I thought, like, his answer was don't blame the coach, go work on your game more.

So that type of tough love.

But he also had a unique perspective of

he loved the beach, and so we got tons of beach time in Florida always as a family.

You know, so I saw a little bit different side of him than just the athletic side.

But when it came to sports, I got pushed pretty hard.

Yeah, exacting, I would imagine.

Is there anything that you've made sure not to do with with your kids because you didn't like how it felt the way your father was doing it?

Like, anything that obviously you're, I'm guessing there's some similarities in how you've raised them, and I'm guessing there's some principle alignment.

But is there anything that you've learned?

I'm like, you know what?

Maybe I don't need to be this hard on them.

Maybe they should be easier on themselves and a little more forgiving, enjoy childhood a little more.

I would say, Dan, that with my second son, Matthew, I was

probably a better parent than with Michael I think that with my older son I was like a lot of parents you know you have this vision like can your can your son play college athletics

the frustration frustration with an AAU coach if his role wasn't what I wanted you know and so I would say even though I knew how how I was raised and my thought process, but I don't know if I took that into my first son.

I pushed Michael pretty hard.

With Matthew, I took a step back because I saw where Michael was going and it was just like, hey,

how do you just like,

did many kids want to jump in my car after a game?

Probably not.

You know, because it was going to be talking about the game.

Looking back now with my daughter Mariah

and she's in competitive dance.

I don't want to talk about the competitive dance.

I want to talk about where do we want to go to dinner?

And so with each child I've gotten better and better

but it's a hard thing.

Everybody wants to, not everybody, but a lot of people want to push their child to be as great as you can get them to be.

But there's also a fine line obviously.

And so I think I've learned with each child.

I think most parents would say that my parents were much harder on me.

You know, they're learning.

All of it takes practice, and so they let go of the reins a little bit on my brother because they had their remorse wherever they were fearful because they were young.

I think, are you,

how much guilt do you do?

How much regret do you do?

Are you someone who forgives yourself easily or do you ravage yourself on the mistakes?

No, I mean, I think that with all of us,

I know each step of the way where there's been mistakes, the biggest thing is just like, don't justify it, you know, accept it and then try to get better.

You know, so for me, I don't think

like I have an opportunity now to, if I messed up when my kids were younger, well, I'm getting a chance to work with them now, you know, and so

it like for with the divorce, Dan, so like 50% of the time I didn't have my sons.

Well, now I'm getting 100%

while we're working together.

You know, so maybe I'm justifying in my own mind.

Well, it's, I mean, it's also reality.

I had a better relationship with my father working with him on television as an adult than I had when I was younger for a variety of reasons, both of us being older and having the appreciation that just comes with age and with learning and with being fired.

I've read you say, I don't know if you still stick to this, I will not hire someone who has not been fired because I want somebody who has the appreciation that comes with having been fired and being grateful for having the job still.

That's still a principle of yours?

Well, it's one that I feel would really help make the staff better, but

as you get older as a coach, you need younger staff members.

And so I think when I was younger as a coach, like it was super important for me, I wanted to hire

my college coach that had been fired, Hank Egan.

It was super important that he was

part of my staff.

And then as I've gotten older in my career, now I got to hire younger guys that have not been fired.

But you want to try to teach them

to understand that there's a different viewpoint once you've been fired somewhere.

And probably the greatest thing about being fired is you're not fearful of being fired a second or a third time.

I do think that the first time is the hardest time.

But in our profession,

it's going to happen, especially the higher level you go.

The differences between college and professional coaching, like what are the, what are the biggest ones that you would point to?

Dan, there's so many.

I'll start with per diem.

Yeah.

And I say that, like, in the NBA, the per diem is really good.

Hotels.

And I also think many of those differences that I just mentioned,

the charter planes, the foods,

that also hurt me trying to get into college basketball because I think that athletic directors looked at the different lifestyle that you have at the NBA level and wondered, can you coach at a low major and accept what

my background was unique because I had been in the minor leagues.

So I appreciated everything in the NBA level.

But there's so many little things that are different.

On the floor from an X and O standpoint, in the NBA, you've got to be really, really good at side out of bounds, offense and defense, late game.

Like you've got to be an expert in that field, or you have no chance.

In college, baseline out of bounds.

So I go to my first college job, and I have this whole book on side out of bounds, you know, philosophically what I want to do offensively deep.

And I'm like, there's only one side out in this college game.

Baseline out of bounds based on where the referee places the ball.

That alone, I had no idea, you know, until I get involved in it.

But in the NBA, you don't do your own schedule.

In college, you're responsible for your non-conference schedule.

And then the biggest piece is the age.

And you're developing young men.

You're developing their habits.

Where in the NBA, you're dealing with grown men that have families.

Habits have already been developed, and you're just trying to kind of tweak things.

But I think the universal thing, no matter what age you coach somebody, the player wants to know, can you help me get better?

That is the, whether it's third grade AAU

or an NBA All-Star, that's the whole key, in my opinion.

So, what would be greater as a challenge than the one I'm presenting to you, or a difference between the two, where you're basically saying in college, you're developing habits, in the pros, you're inheriting habits, right?

So, what's a greater challenge than that between kids and adults?

Because

you went to hotel and you went to money and you went to comforts first, and these are adults who are also wealthy, and they're adults who have gotten where they've gotten maybe taking to mentorship and discipline or maybe rejecting this new guy who why is he bossing me around why is he trying to show me he's in charge I would say Dan from my experience buy-in is much easier at the collegiate level and when I say buy-in you put in a play

The players go out and execute the play the way that you've described it.

In the NBA, you might put in that same play

and you might be challenged in front of the rest of the roster on why are we doing it this way.

College coach knows best, largely still.

High school, certainly, but college still coach knows best.

Pros, yeah.

Yeah, you got to almost prove yourself on a daily basis.

You know, I've been around so many great NBA coaches, it's been super interesting to sit back and watch how the audience, meaning the players, take to the messaging.

So when you're working for Chuck Daly

and he is

the former coach of the Dream Team and he's won world championships with the Pistons, the buy-in was so great.

That same message could come from a different coach.

It could be the same scheme.

The buy-in's not there.

And it's super interesting how pro players,

based on who's delivering the message, how that message gets received.

Because I've seen differences, I've seen drastic differences in how messages were received.

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Well, you became a coach at 23, a head coach for the first time.

Ridiculous, the young coaching that you were doing.

When did you learn how to lead?

I'm in my 50s running a company and lamenting, I don't know how to lead.

I don't know how to do it.

And when I talk to other good leaders, they're always like, well, nobody really does, but you sort of figure out a few tricks along the way.

And then at some point, you have experience with these things.

So when did you know that you were a good leader?

I think like you're trying to

lead every day.

I don't think that like,

I don't think there ever is an end point in leadership and I don't know like when do you you

probably feel internally confident about leadership when you get full buy-in on a daily basis from the beginning of the season to the end of the season.

And then really when you think about leadership, it's how far can you take a group of in our sport young men to the finish line where they're maximizing their potential.

To me, that's leadership.

But when did you know?

Did you

At some point, you didn't have any imposter syndrome when you were 23.

You felt like, no, I belong as a head coach at 23 years old.

This is my destiny.

It's my earned right.

It's been handed down from my father.

I've learned the things I need to know.

I am equipped to lead this.

I think at 23, as a head coach of a minor league sports team, I was confident that I could do the job.

Now, what my father told me a week before we were putting our roster together, he said, you need to do two things.

He goes, number one, you need to understand you don't know anything about X and O's.

You don't know anything about leadership.

You don't know anything about controlling a locker room.

You've never done it.

He said, so I'm going to give you these two pieces.

Try to get as many Bobby Knight players that have played for Coach Knight as possible.

And try to get as many Jerry Tarkanian players as possible.

And I said, why?

Those two.

And he goes, it's the perfect blend.

With Tark, you're going to get great athletes.

You're going to get guys that instinctively react.

With Coach Knight, you're going to get guys that are super, super disciplined.

And he goes, combine those two, and it's going to equal success even though you don't know what you're doing.

And it was, I went out and did it.

We got Jarvis Bass Knight, and we got Sudden Sam Smith from UNLV, and we went out and got Jimmy Thomas and the Jay Edwards of the world from Indiana, and those Keith Smart and those guys combined.

So you thought your father's literally feels like he's handing you family jewels here, correct?

Like where you don't know what you're doing yet.

Here's a cheat.

Here's your formula.

Exactly.

Here's your blueprint to.

And so you were able to stack successes on top of each other that gave you confidence that you were leading correctly until you actually learned how to lead.

Right.

And then

I thought I was a really good leader

with the Warriors.

I really did, you know.

And then

personnel changes happened in year two with Golden State.

And

I felt like I could lead the team.

That's just Chris Mullen coming in as GM, right?

Yeah, so what happened there, Dan, was in year one, we're all young.

Gilbert Arenas was in his second year and hardly played his first year.

Jason Richardson was in year two.

Troy Murphy in year two.

Mike Dunlevey was a rookie.

And then there was a bunch of personnel changes, and in came Nick Van Exel at the end of his career.

In came Avery Johnson at the end of his career.

In came Cliff Robinson and Popeye Jones.

And now I went from what I thought I was a good leader to now being challenged on a daily basis by these veterans.

So I went from being super confident to all of a sudden wondering,

can I lead these guys?

These guys are older than me.

These guys are more experienced.

These guys have played for incredible NBA head coaches.

And so when I walked down those steps for shooter rounds, in year one, I was the most confident human being possible.

In year two,

I wondered when I was going to get challenged on the scheme.

We're putting in a trap to pick and roll here.

Well, what's Avery Johnson going to ask, or what is Nick Van Exel going to ask on the third and fourth option of this thing?

And am I prepared enough?

So there was a little bit of

paranoia of how well do I really know?

Because I had to know it inside and out, because it was almost like a game to this group of veterans.

And so

when did I, I don't know when I, some years I felt super confident as a leader and other years.

Well, thank you for admitting that, though.

What an interesting, what a, what an interesting thing to be summarily confident and then be met with a veteran expertise that you respect so much because they're better at basketball than you were, the sport that you love.

No insult there.

They're better than almost everybody.

And they've learned from some of the best in the league you've always wanted to work in.

And so they immediately are producing an imposter syndrome for you.

Just by challenging you directly, though?

It wasn't something you felt.

They were challenging you.

Oh, yeah.

I mean, yes, we would I mean I've I'm talking Dan like we would put in a pick and roll scheme and a couple of the guys had played for the Spurs and Coach Pop and they said, hey, you know, when we played Milwaukee, that's not how we would play the pick and roll.

And this would be a discussion on the floor with everybody around.

It wasn't a player coming into my office and closing the door.

So it was challenging, you know, and

as I look back now, I'm like, I can't believe that coaches are getting hired in their late 30s and can do it.

But I know why they're doing it.

They're doing it because they have a great locker room.

They're doing it because of situations like Coach Spo has been put in, where Coach Riley has his back, so to speak.

And so otherwise, it's super hard for a young coach

to even be given

a legitimate chance to have success.

Yeah, it's hard to develop the respect until you've done the winning, and you can't really do the winning unless you have the respect.

It's why I say, I understand when Pat Riley describes life as winning in misery.

I understand when Stan Van Gundy, you know, I tell him all the time, I'm like, you're so much happier when you're not coaching.

Everybody who loves you would say that you're a more balanced, functioning, happy human being, and yet it's a heroin addiction.

You cannot stop.

You will gravitate toward the misery because the highs are better than any of the highs anywhere else that you get.

And it's an insanity what you guys do and what you pour into it.

It almost forces an obsessive compulsive imbalance.

Like, I can't imagine that you have much in your life other than basketball and family.

I got to imagine that what the muscle, when you say my dad taught me basketball and that's what he taught me, that's what was being handed down in our family and that's it on the man's side.

For sure.

I mean, you in that little minute and a half segment, you bring up so much.

Like before we got into this, we talked about the impact that your podcast slash interview with Coach Riley, like that's someone that for me, I look up to.

When I listened to that podcast, it was so inspirational to me.

And the first thing that came to my mind is,

man, I wish Dan could do that again with Coach Riley.

I need another hour and a half because

the lessons that he was saying, like for all coaches of any sport, and then Coach Van Gundy opening up and being, you know, so transparent with his life outside of basketball, like that stuff is super, super impactful.

For me, if I'm not coaching, I would be miserable.

Other coaches, maybe they're miserable.

I have misery when I coach,

but that's a lot better than the three years that I wasn't coaching.

Well, I've read you quoted as saying, if I'm not working, I'm walking around like a zombie.

If I'm not working, I need to stay active.

Are you in any way hiding in the work?

Or is it just that you love it so much that this is who you are?

It's who you've been you are at peace with it it's who you'll forever be and it makes you happy even when it makes you miserable thousand percent this is what I've been exposed to and what I know and so for me like

when I'm in first and second grade and I come down you know to have breakfast before school cartoons were not on

Game film was on.

And on a weekend, when I'm in third grade and my dad's coaching at the University of Minnesota, it's Adrian Dantley's on a visit that weekend.

And my weekend was not

playing outside and riding a snowmobile in Bloomington, Minnesota.

It was, oh, I'm following my dad on this visit with Adrian Dantley or Lionel Train Hollins.

And I bring those two guys up, Dan, because...

I know what happened when my dad didn't get those two recruits.

Yeah, they're gods.

The two of them.

You get those two guys, they will make a lot of coaches look very good at their job.

And my household was in

turmoil when my dad got the call that Dantley, through the fax machine, had sent it to Notre Dame rather than Minnesota.

So all this, you're right, maybe it is like a drug, highs, lows, whatever.

Like, that's what I am used to.

That's how I grew up.

That's what I need.

That's what I like.

That's what I love.

What Riley says of Game Sevens, Sevens, when he talks most poetically about Game Sevens, it's like, look, they don't, like the olden days in competition, hang you up in a square by your thumbs if you lose.

All I'm doing at the height of Game Seven is feeling more alive than I ever do anywhere else in life.

Whether it's winning or losing, it's just the place that I feel most alive when you put the stakes up there and you test me at the maximum of the challenges.

Yeah, I mean, like for me,

you bring up the the word alive.

So

when I get fired from Sacramento, for three years, I decide, all right, I have three more years' pay.

I'm in the prime of my career.

And I have three more years of pay coming from the Kings.

A lovely situation.

A great situation.

You paid a lot of money to not work, to not have pressure all over you.

And I took advantage of it.

I wanted to be a dad.

How do I reconnect with my son?

So I moved back to where their mother lived, and I was a dad for three years.

But

towards the end of the three years, I was in Carpool Lane.

I was looking to my left, looking to my right.

There's a mom on the right with her Starbucks coffee.

There's a mom to the left.

And I was like, wow, like I'm still, I'm in the prime right now of my career.

And this three years has been incredible.

But

I got to go do what I do.

I got to go do what I love.

I have to go do what I'm passionate about, what makes me alive.

I got to go do it again.

And it didn't matter where.

So I got a little bit of taste in the Dominican in the summer where I could still be a dad, but I can go coach for two and a half months in the Dominican Republic.

And, you know, then I go to Venezuela.

And those are two of the greatest experiences ever.

I learned to become a better coach.

Half the team didn't speak the same language I did.

I don't speak Spanish, but I coached two countries, their national team, where 80%, 67% one year of the team spoke no, like it was all Spanish speaking.

So I learned to demonstrate better.

I learned to communicate better in huddles.

All those things made me a way, way better coach.

I didn't know it at the time, but I knew it coming out of those situations.

Take me through the greatest difficulties of coaching a bunch of players that don't speak the same language that you do.

Like, how is it that you get by the practice?

I mean, you mentioned some of the details, but take me through some of the difficulties.

I imagine that was super weird to not be able to.

I mean, I don't know where you place communication on the list of traits a coach has to have, but I would imagine it would be pretty high in terms of importance.

It is.

So I think, one,

the key is to have a player

that speaks English, that really buys in, that can help with the interpretation.

And then anybody that speaks Spanish on your staff, there's got to be great trust as well that what you're conveying.

But what I learned as a hands-on coach was demonstration.

So being in physical condition, you know, even at 60, super important because I think you've got to be able to go out there and demonstrate what you want.

But when you don't speak the same language, now demonstration becomes super, super important.

So demonstration, delivery, and slowing things down were the things that I learned.

But it made me, I'm a better coach now in college because of those experiences.

Because

in a huddle, if you only have a minute and a half to get a message in and you're,

my diagrams became better.

You know, like

if I'm coaching a bunch of guys that speak the same language, I can do a sloppy diagram and they go executed.

But if not, my diagrams have to be so clear, so concise.

So it became the seating chart on the bench.

I came up with point guard to my right, off guard, small forward in the middle, power forward center, so that when I looked up, I knew exactly what position regardless of who was sitting there.

And then I would say the player's name, look at him, diagram where he went.

So I would go player by player and then diagram where he was.

I've never done that before.

I've always diagrammed the whole play.

But I've learned that that's probably the best way to get a message across in a huddle.

What's an example your family would give me of you being just totally unreasonably competitive?

Like,

is there any story of something of a board game?

You cannot be sane when, or there have to be stories of your youth at the very least where your competitive streak is not in any way reasonable.

That would be pick up basketball.

And I don't know if it's my sons, but certainly

when I was in high school, college, and then probably 12 years after college,

La Jolla Rec Center.

You were a red ass.

Yeah.

I mean, I did not like to lose in pickup ball.

And probably even more so, Dan, than winning a college game.

I probably took pickup ball wins and losses because I would have what my record was every day, you know, and I was pretty prideful of what that record was, and I was super prideful in going into a gym

and having somebody else pick the teams against me.

So we weren't winning pickup games because of my ability as a player.

We were winning pickup games because of my ability to choose four other players that complemented each other to go kick the crap out of the other guy.

So

I would say that anybody that played with me from the time I was probably 15 years old to 35

would understand the competitive nature.

We had a walk-on on our team at USC that was recruited and played for the prior coach, Coach Enfeld.

And then I get the job and all of a sudden the dad said, hey, I used to play with you at Live Oak when you were working for the Clippers when we were right out of college.

Have you analyzed where it all comes from, though?

Like where the need to be that competitive, the need to prove yourself.

Oh, my dad.

Yeah.

Like my dad was the most competitive person that I've ever witnessed in my life.

Like when I grew up and we would play pickup ball,

like it was,

we had to win, you know, and

game point,

if the game was to 12 and it was 11-11, that might take 30.

My dad would keep fouling on defense until we somehow got the ball back and had the opportunity.

He was the most competitive person that I've ever seen in my life.

And maybe Jerry West rivaled his

competitiveness/slash

lunatic

will to win.

Healthy or unhealthy?

Oh, for sure, with those two, probably unhealthy.

Yeah.

Now, like Mike Fratello, super super competitive and Doc Rivers is super competitive and like Chuck Daly

competitively was right up there with anybody, but he handled it way different.

Like he was, because he was so cool.

You know, and I mean that like not his dress, but his personality,

he was cool.

Unfazed.

Unfazed.

Confidence.

Like if we lost, he didn't, it wasn't on like he would take take responsibility, but he knew he knew what he was doing.

You know, and so I would just say, yeah, those West and my dad were.

Well, when you say unhealthy, though, tell me what it looks like, because you've mentioned a couple of times that it stuck with you, the despondence.

Like, and you're saying, well, it's not that he's bringing it home.

I was right there with him, so I was bringing it home, too.

I learned well from my dad.

But when you say it's unhealthy.

Yeah, I mean,

okay, so if we went on vacation somewhere,

my dad would want to go play pickup ball.

Like, let's go to the nearest outdoor court.

If we lost or we played bad, because we were always on the same team, it was super cool.

He always, hey, my son and I, we'll get these other three, we'll go play.

But dinner would be ruined.

You know, like, I mean, I don't know how else to say it.

Like, I mean, we would not have a good dinner.

No words exchanged.

That was the problem, probably.

We didn't talk, you know, like we lost.

And he would just steam.

Yeah, he was just bitter that we lost.

Like, um,

so there, that was what I not terribly evolved in that respect emotionally, right?

Like, if you're bringing

I understand,

I understand the coaching mentality to a degree.

I can't understand it entirely.

So, a coach is going to bring a loss home if he's responsible.

What could he have done different?

Uh, there might be some misery at the dinner table, but you're speaking as a family man about the joys of being around your children.

And my guess is that you would not like to be that for them with the losses.

If you're doing anything with mortality, if you're doing anything with age and experience of these moments are fleeting, this time that I have with them is precious.

Perhaps I shouldn't ruin it because we missed six free throws.

Yep.

And I would say that I have learned from that.

Like, so, um,

Danielle, my wife, we have from 9 to 10 o'clock at night,

every night, we watch some show together.

No phone, no recruiting.

Now, during the season, if I come home after a game, we're going to watch a show together.

It might not be at that exact time because you get home at different, but she'll stay up, we'll watch an hour, she'll fall asleep, and then I'll take it upstairs on the couch

to deal with my own internal issues regarding the game.

But I don't,

have a home game, play the game, go to dinner with the staff, talk about the game.

I go home to my wife with my wife, and we watch some type of show that's non-basketball related.

And then after we get that 60 minutes in, I dive right back into my feelings and my own world.

And that could go throughout the night.

But I have learned through watching my mom and dad, through my first marriage, I've learned that you got to turn it off.

And with my daughter, it's different than my two sons.

My daughter doesn't, she doesn't go to many of our games.

She's got her own dance thing right now.

And so when I come home,

we don't really talk about basketball, Mariah and I.

So it's different dynamics at different points in my life and with different children.

I would imagine, though, that if I go to your closest friendships, if I go and find shortcuts where it is that I will find all of the people who love you and you love them back, I will find the relationship connection shortcut of we talk basketball.

Like there will be a handful of exceptions.

Not many.

There will not be many.

If any.

Well, it's a life devoted to basketball through generations, and basketball has provided.

It's not like

you don't understand everything that has been provided for those kids, but do you understand how imbalanced you've had to be in order to chase this pursuit and deem it worthy of all of your time so that you can do things like help kids so that it feels like, you know, that you're doing good in the world?

I don't think there's any doubt, like the imbalance of

my dad carried a note around.

from like sixth grade on that said he wanted to be a coach.

You know, for me,

I knew like in high school, my dad was an NBA head coach, and there had never been a father-son head coach duo.

You were the first.

And that, like, so since high school, that's what I wanted.

You got to be pretty driven in high school to think, how do I, and I'm beating a clock, you know, because I don't know who Don Nelson and Donnie Nelson Jr.

were ahead of where I was and my day.

And so I was like, I was always kind of checking out Donnie Nelson and like, is he going to beat me to this kind of goal slash dream that I had?

Competitive even there.

Competitive on dreams.

But, you know, it's, I mean, it's what I know.

Well, you beat him.

We did.

When you look at that, though, sixth grade knows he's going to be a head coach.

What could you tell people about what are the challenges of working with family?

Because

it must be fraught with all sorts of things that I couldn't possibly know about.

Yeah, so I would say, so I spent one year with my dad with the Timberwolves.

I wasn't able to join in year one because my dad

said, I'm not going to hire you.

You have no experience.

as a coach because I had been only a general manager of this minor league team at first, and then we hired Flip Saunders to be the coach.

And I kept thinking, my dad's going to hire him.

He's going to hire him.

And he said, hey, you got to get coaching experience.

So I coached for one year, joined him in year two with the Timberwolves.

That year

was the greatest year of my life.

Like I felt no

other than I moved in with my dad, and that lasted like a month.

And then I ended up living in the same complex with Tom Thibodeau.

I lived above him on a floor.

He lived below me on a floor.

I would pound the floor.

We would both go to the Target Center together for practice.

Just you and Thibodeau geeking out on being basketball cavemen.

No time, because Thibodeau's a lunatic.

So he's a solitary pursuit.

That guy doesn't even do relationships.

Like, that guy is just basketball, basketball, basketball.

I will say this, Dan.

So when I was with Coach Tibbs, and he might not like me.

He might not like me to say this, but Tom had a girlfriend, and he did do stuff at that point in his life.

I can only speak for the one year that I was in the world.

Playboy Thibodeau, you're just exposing him a side of him.

No one has ever seen him.

I'm just saying that he and my dad would go to nightclubs for sure.

Look at that.

Coach Tibbs did.

It's hard to believe.

And Tom did have a life outside of basketball.

But yeah, that was, I lived with my dad for one month, and it was too much.

What happened?

Well, so, first of all,

my dad had the first player we ever recruited at Ashland College was a player by the name of Gary Urchek.

Gary Urchek lived in Minnesota.

He had gotten divorced.

His family was out of the house.

He had a big house.

So my dad actually lived in the house of the first player we ever recruited.

This was big enough house where I could join in, which I did.

And it was

two o'clock in the morning.

I would be dead asleep, and my dad would walk in the room, open the door, and say, hey,

E, come on downstairs.

Let's check out some tape on Carl Malone and how we might want to defend him.

That's pretty cool for like a week, Dan.

You get into the 30th day.

I'm like,

I'm out.

And so that's what happened.

I moved out.

All right, so, but

he was obsessive, compulsive then, right?

Like, I mean, there was a lot of things.

But he also

loved the fact that

he got a joy out of picking up the phone at one in the morning and calling somebody to talk hoops.

And then he liked the legacy that that carried on that, hey, you know, Bill Musselman, he's going to talk hoops at all hours.

So

was it hard for you to move out?

Was it hard for you to tell

me not staying here?

Not at all.

You can't do this.

Because I had no fear of my dad.

Like, there was never any...

I wasn't in a house.

It was a loving household.

It was, hey, dad, I can't deal with this no more.

I got to go.

All right, see you.

Can you tell me about the emotion then of achieving what it is your goal had been

to get to become the first father-son duo to ever coach in the NBA?

Wow, no, I don't know if anyone's ever asked me that.

And I might get emotional because

it was my mom, it was my family, everybody was in my office, what was going to be my office.

You know, before the press conference, they bring you in, hey, this is going to be your office.

You know, we're all in there.

It's a celebratory moment.

And I had to ask everybody to leave, including my mom.

Hey, I need a moment.

So I'm like 10 minutes before walking out,

first NBA head job, and I'm on the floor on all fours crying because I'm like, my dad is not going to see this.

Now, he might see it from above, but like, my dad is not here to be a part of this.

And that, like, that

like, and then I had to regroup.

You know what I mean?

I mean, the Bay Area is a pretty big media market, you know, and so you're nervous, you got angst, you have all these things going through.

And just to think, like, wow,

I'm going to be an NBA head coach, something that I felt like my dad's been kind of mentoring me to do this since I was a baby.

Like, it's probably his thought that maybe this could happen, you know, and just the fact that he wasn't going to be there for it

hurt.

I don't know how else to describe it, but it hurt.

And hands and knees, you're being literal there.

The pain.

Literal.

The pain of your father missing it by...

How much earlier had he been alive?

I don't have, I mean, that's hard for me.

I'm going to guess he was with Portland Trailblazers when he passed away.

I was working for Orlando, so maybe

five years.

And you get to that moment, and it's the thought of his absence that makes you feel that way.

Had you really grieved it before that, or was it sneaking up on you in that moment 10 minutes before?

it came out of nowhere it was not that I was thinking of it leading up to my interviews

I'm saying had you pushed down all of the grief there not examined it gone to work done whatever it is that people do to cope with

my father's death and and then the way that it snuck back up like obviously grief is something that can surprise you at any time yes but you hadn't felt it quite like that

well no i

you know my dad had like he had like three funerals because it because he had coached at so many different spots.

So I went to two and I didn't go to the third just because I couldn't emotionally handle it.

The first one, I've never felt like that.

And I, you know, I hope I never, like, it was the most crushing.

And I couldn't accept his death.

Like, I did not want his casket to go below.

the ground.

I couldn't deal with it, You know, so and that went on

probably for like a year.

Like I would go jogging on the beach where he lived in Sarasota on Siesta Key and I would think I would see him.

And not to the point of, like people have said, well, oh yeah, I thought, no, to the point of me in a going from a jog to a dead sprint to get ahead of the guy and look and see, thinking that I'm

but but then through time, that kind of went away and then it just, bam, it hit me at this press conference, like how proud he would be, you know, of

all the time he poured into me to help me get to that moment.

I don't know what kind of spiritual man you are, and I don't mean to suggest that I've learned much of anything about grief, but I have been examining it over two years, and when you described the story you described, it is possible, depending on what it is you believe and what it is to choose, choose to think

that you could feel in that moment, instead of overwhelming grief from missing someone, also a semblance of gratitude because they are indeed there.

If you're overwhelmed or overtaken by that sensation, if you're willing to believe that the person you're running to catch up is a spirit and source, that in that moment, because your father and your love for your father is so alive, that he is also there.

But

that's not what was present for you.

It was just pain and something you, it was just 10 minutes before you're about to go out to realize the dream.

It's just pain that he's not there to share it with you.

Just pain.

Yep.

Only pain, probably.

And then I would say that to your spiritual aspect of my dad, anytime something goes wrong, it could even be in-game.

It's certainly when I start thinking about changing plane rotations, or I always have a conversation with my dad.

And

what would you do?

And I get an answer.

Now, maybe it's just me making it up in my own head, but

a couple years ago at Arkansas, we went through

a rough patch.

And I took some little time by myself.

And I said, Dad, what do I do here?

And he told me, play your five toughest guys.

Forget the position they play.

Just trust me.

And I heard, like in my heart, my soul, my brain, my my dad told me, play the five toughest guys regardless of position.

And then I go into the staff meeting and I say, hey, you guys, this is what we're going to do.

This is what my dad

told me to do.

And then we go on an Elite Eight run.

But I think in huddles all the time, like in late game, like...

before the timeout actually, balls going from one basket to the next.

I'm like, all right, if there's a dead ball here and there's a timeout,

come on, Dad, what do we got?

You know, and

usually gets answered.

There's a couple times I haven't gotten an answer, but I usually get an answer.

That's lovely, though, the idea that you believe enough to believe that those conversations are real, right?

I feel them.

I hear them.

And again, it's whether it's just, you know, you could argue whether it's I'm hearing them or it's my imagination, but I'm hearing them.

It doesn't matter.

Well, it matters to me, actually, Dan, Dan, because I believe that he's telling me that and I'm hearing it.

You know what I mean?

But you keep him alive either way, right?

Like, it's

the reason I say, does it matter, is because I will ask of my brother, I will say, Dave, are you here?

And

I've never done that before.

Are you here?

And it is soothing to believe he is.

Like, I do hear those same things, and I do feel those things.

And there are things that I don't understand, can't begin to understand will go the rest of my life without totally being able to articulate but in that moment he is there and so if the love for him is there if the pain of that love for him is there then everything that I felt for him is still alive.

The memories still keep it alive.

And I too have heard the exact voice that you're saying it's not the conversation's not fabricated because you can hear him telling you, giving you an answer that wasn't the answer that you had.

You had questions, you were searching, you were looking for a mentor, you were looking for advice, and his voice was there.

That keeps it alive.

No question.

And

you wrestle how with whether or not the spirituality of the beyond is something that is helping you now as you guide your own children and your family through whatever it is that would resemble the pride of your father.

No question.

I mean, it's a daily,

for me, like, I'm always thinking about him.

Is he with me?

I know he's with me.

Is he really, like,

I struggle with that aspect.

But I do know

in the time of need, he always comes through.

And that I do know.

And

if he doesn't give me an answer, I always kind of chuckle and it's like, all right, he's testing me.

You're on your own.

You figure it out.

And so I always feel like he's present and with me and still guiding me.

Do you remember the moments after you get up off of your knees to go do that press conference?

Like you shake that off.

How you shake it off?

I don't even know if that's the right way to phrase what you're feeling there, but like how do you regroup and now present yourself to the public as a face, new face and voice of a team that's got to have his composure and be respected?

Yeah, it's the first thing is to try to get my family in there as quick as possible to get me to like no tears.

That's the first thought is

I can't go before the Bay Area media

with any semblance of vulnerability.

No one would understand it.

I hate that for you guys though.

I hate that you always have to go to the coach speak because this is a caveman world where you cannot trust these cruel people with your vulnerabilities.

They are not to be trusted, but it'd be so much more humanizing.

It doesn't serve you at all, but it'd be so much more humanizing if people could understand and you could say to people, hey, I got Nick Van Exel in my huddle, and the guy thinks he knows more than I do.

And I mean, mate, on occasion he might.

You can't say any of that.

That's true.

I think it, like now, I think I could say more of that, not the way you just worded it, where it was totally transparent.

But I think I saw Coach Daly do it.

I think I do it more now.

I think with, you know, when you become, you know, confident, when you get older,

when you gained experience, you under.

And then I do think like with the media, just as I referenced, you know, your,

maybe not Coach Riley's trust with you, you know, I can go back and look at people

that I saw my dad trust.

Sid Hartman with the, with the Minneapolis Star Tribune, Charlie Walters, who still writes for the Pioneer Press.

My dad trusted those guys.

Like,

I look at my career, Bob Holt, who just passed away with the Arkansas Demo.

Like, I had no problem telling Bob whatever.

Richard Davenport, who still writes for the Arkansas, like those guys,

they're friends,

but it wasn't that way at the start.

You know what I mean?

And that's when I think about that first press conference.

I didn't know any of those guys, you know, and you're probably right.

I probably would have gotten off to a better start.

Now that I'm thinking about it, for the first time ever in my life, I'm thinking about what if I would have gone out there and said, hey, I got tears in my eyes because I was thinking about my dad, you know, and how much it probably would have changed the narrative

and shown a personal side that probably would have been helpful.

So

I wish I would have met you.

Well, I found generally that in this particular world, in the arena,

men are taught to

ignore your body, ignore your feelings.

Those things don't matter.

The finish line matters.

The scoreboard matters.

All that matters is result.

Show me the baby.

Don't tell me about the labor.

You grew up in the most hardened form of that.

If your dad is carrying around a piece of paper from sixth grade that says he's going to be a coach, if he's unhealthy about the way that he's competitive and he raises a boy who idolizes him, you almost have no chance at learning these things through anything other than failures, right?

Or falling down or learning what you got to learn.

But you know how repressed this environment is.

You are, your tears, you're not, a public crier is not a coach that Dick Vermeal had the confidence to do it.

There are not very many men that I have seen in the world of coaching who are totally confident being like, yeah, these are my emotions.

What's the problem?

It doesn't keep me from doing my job correctly.

Trevor Burrus, and that's probably why we don't see it, Dan, because, you know, if there had been 30 other people prior that had done done, maybe it becomes more natural.

But it's not weakness, it's strength.

To go in front of those people and tell them about the relationship with your father, like

it's backward the way that some of some that we do some of this in sports where tears are weakness and it's meant to be hidden as if fear wasn't the most human thing, as if hurt wasn't the most human thing.

It seems silly.

No, it's true, but like we probably haven't had, you know, enough conversations about that or been taught that enough.

And I think now, I think younger people are being exposed to these conversations of it's okay to be vulnerable.

And you think about all the mental health stuff that goes on now, which is so powerful and so good for like our student athletes.

You have to embrace that and encourage your players to go because it's a form of

being vulnerable.

It's a form of sharing and it's a space for help, which we all need in reality.

But men can be bad about asking for questions.

And Stan Van Gundy talks pretty eloquently about not understanding how they'll send the guy into another room for treatment for his ankle problem, but he's just kicked another basketball in frustration into the stands, and he's got an anchor problem, and nobody wants to talk about whether or not that needs treatment or not.

But I think it is now

much more so than even like 10 years ago.

Well, but imagine your father, if I'm asking your father to describe what tough is,

imagine your father

just receiving the news that somebody needs a mental health day.

Yeah, I would say with my dad, that would be in his day and age.

But then I think back of his conversations with a lot of his players, and I think he was

aware of that stuff.

and that's why he had such incredible relationships with people like Sam Mitchell.

I mean

my dad was vulnerable too.

Like, I mean, he had a picture up in his

beach apartment in Sarasota, Florida of Sam Mitchell.

You know, and I'm like, why do you have a picture of Sam up?

And he's like, because I love him.

You know, so I think that, you know, old school, like I had spent a summer with Hubie Brown, you know, and like, I think what made Coach Brown, like, he was so hard on everybody,

including me as an assistant coach, I'd stand in front of a truck for him because he, like, he poured into me.

Like, it was hard.

It was challenging.

It was,

I mean, he cursed me out.

Like, but out of all the people I've worked for, I'd stand in front of a moving truck for him.

You know, and I.

Because you just knew that he cared and you understood his way of caring and you were doing some of the translations on he's investing in me.

Yeah, like he,

he, in one, he did more for me in one month than any human I've ever been around.

Like he taught me so much.

And

I felt like when he was going to practice and saying stuff to the players, I think half the time he was saying it to me as a young coach.

Like, I don't know if he was or wasn't, but that's what, in my soul, that's what I thought.

And so, yeah,

you can cuss me out, Coach Brown, because you're teaching me something every day.

I appreciate the honesty.

It's been a pleasure to talk to you and to watch all your success no matter where you are.

Do you want to take the quiz again, see if you do any better on all the places?

You know what I do want to do, though, Dan, and it is important to me, is to mention my mom

before we get off the air, because I know my mom's going to listen to this.

And

a lot of the stuff is through my dad with basketball, but a lot of the stuff off the floor floor is through my mom.

You know, and she's like,

my financial stability is due to my mom, her teaching me things.

The marketing, my mom's family was involved in Pepsi-Cola, running Pepsi plants.

So the marketing and trying to fill up a building at Arkansas or fill up a building in Nevada, all that comes from my mom.

So I wanted to at least get that in.

She probably enjoys you talking about your father and that relationship as well.

But there is no way for creatures like you and your father to exist unless someone else is doing all the other things that life requires.

That's so true.

I mean, if you guys, if the Muslims are just doing the work and the women who love them are feeding their terrible, terrible habit of being addicted to this thing that makes them who they are, their identity, there's real love and understanding and understanding that your father needed to be doing that to be whole.

And I needed my wife to, because we do not make

a Sweet 16 at Nevada, ranked 17 straight weeks in the top 10 at Nevada,

make two Elite 8s at Arkansas, three straight Sweet 16s at Arkansas without my wife.

She probably

has as much to do with our success as I do because

the recruits that we got, she played a big part.

Keeping the locker room intact,

having guys over for a meal after I've been hard on them in practice.

Advice.

Advice.

The media advice that she's given our players.

Strength when you're weak.

Draft preparation for interviews that Danielle has helped guys with.

Like,

you're right.

Like, you got me thinking.

I'm probably just a mediocre college coach without my wife.

Well, you were talking about the loneliness that you you felt with the lack of support once you had gotten to one of your dreams.

I would imagine that all of this is better because it's shared.

All of this, this is such a family affair.

The fact that

both of your sons are working for you, the fact that you descend from what you descend from, like...

What choice does she have, honestly?

If she's going to love this man, it has to be with basketball.

There's not a choice that loves this man without basketball, correct?

Well, the only difference here is when Danielle and I met, I was in my three years not coaching, and she says all the time, you are so funny.

Like, I thought you were the funniest male that I've ever met.

You didn't have a care in the world.

You always wanted to go on vacation.

What happened?

I don't know.

It's Stan Van Gundy.

Look at you.

You guys cackle from the bowels of hell, laughing.

It's heaven.

You don't understand.

And they're looking at you like you're crazy because you are.

Thank you.

I appreciate you sharing that insanity with us.

It is not unusual for a coach to express some of the things that you're expressing.

It just seems like you cannot be fully functioning, balanced human beings and be hugely successful coaches if you have to have more time for things outside of basketball and family.

There's not a third thing, right?

There's not a third thing that's coming there that.

The closest I've ever seen is Chuck Daly.

I will say that.

That is the closest to the competitive will to win, doing your job, and enjoying life.

But he actually won, right?

Because the interesting thing to me between the differences in Stan Van Gundy and Pat Riley's addictions is at least I understood why Stan and Jeff kept coming back.

They wanted the ultimate thing.

But Riley's going to be in that seat 10 years after he's dead because basketball is his identity and he doesn't want to be anything else.

But he's already won.

So I don't totally get why the misery would still be the heroin addiction it is.

But I'll keep talking to coaches until I find out.

So, thank you for spending this time with us, Eric.

Appreciate it.

Julian Edlow here from DK Network.

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