The Best of SBS: Napheesa Collier & Nancy Lieberman

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Surely in the history of South Beach Sessions, we have never had anyone tougher than this human being right here, Nancy Lieberman, two-time Olympian, two-time Hall of Famer, big three coach, champion, and a pioneer, a trailblazer.

Is this how you became tough, though?

Like, obviously, basketball has something to do with it, but where are the places where you can say, no, that's what made me strong?

Those are the things that made me who I am.

I don't know if I can define strong, but I can define

what was acceptable to me and what was not acceptable to me.

And I knew I am not going to live this life.

This is not how I'm going to live.

I don't know how I'm going to get from here to here.

But I think sports is going to do this for me.

And as one thing,

you know, playing in the Olympics in high school or then getting a scholar a college scholarship, player of the year in college basketball, and then, you know, like the,

you know, the Dick Shaps taking me under his wing and coming to Old Dominion and making sure that

he had tabs on me.

I'd come home.

He'd say, you're going to come, we're going to, this is what we're going to do.

Jeremy Schapp,

right on this knee at lunch,

a year old, two years old.

Dick was very instrumental in just making sure that I was protected.

or learning.

And

he would introduce me to so many people.

He's like, you need to do this and you need to come to this event.

And

again,

I don't have,

I can't tell you why.

Like, I want to do a book that says, how do you know, dot, dot, dot?

How do you know Dick Schapp?

How do you know Muhammad Ali?

How are you friends with Kevin Costner?

How are you friends with Warren Buffett?

How are you friends with Ice Cube?

I don't have a clinical reason.

I don't even know how.

I'm here with you and I'm a fan of what you've done and what you've done with with Poppy and to make me laugh or just

how you were with your family was very impactful to me and I get a chance to tell you this in real time like right now.

The people that you mentioned though, so many of the men that you mentioned are obviously gravitating toward a place where commonalities exist on the chasing of excellence.

Like they're

they're They have at least some sort of Dick Schapp, when you're talking about Dick Schapp, he's got some knowledge of what it's taken to be you, the difficulties, the impediments, the obstacles.

He's got this much knowledge, but he's got such knowledge.

So I imagine that that's a place where you connect with all of these people is respect.

I hope so, and I think so.

And, you know, some of the people that got to know me, and he got to know me because he interviewed me so many times.

He was down at Old Dominion so many times.

And I think he got to see

probably that I was hiding behind being Nancy Lieberman, and I would never really open up as you and I are talking.

This conversation would have not happened.

The story protects you, though.

I can imagine that you've developed some armor over the years and had to, in order to tell the story in a way that is palatable, inspirational, but not too vulnerable because there must have been a whole lot of garbage inside of the dysfunction.

Yes,

you're spot on.

So we win the national championship.

I'm player of the year in college basketball.

I'm asked to come December of 79.

This is the turning point for me.

Come to the New York Stock Exchange to do an appearance for the Olympic Committee, a fundraiser.

Gives me a chance to go home, be with my mom, my best friend growing up, going up the escalator.

And I look at the guy and I go, yo,

who's the other athlete?

You know, kind of that bravado.

Who's the other athlete with me?

And he says, yeah, we're going in the green room.

Green room.

I said, well, who's the other athlete and we get to the top he goes oh yeah it's it's you and muhammad ali and i'm like he's here muhammad ali is here i'm like 21 years old and the door opened no joke and it was like that oprah

and the glow and he's i was hyper ventilating so on the 76 olympic team there was um

you know, Sugar Ray, Leonard, there were all these different boxers, and I love boxing.

And Howard Davis, who won a gold medal, and he was from Queens, and I saw Howard, and I

beelined to Howard, and my mother goes up to Ali and puts her arms around her and goes, Mr.

Muhammad, I'm Rini Lieberman from Queens, and my daughter, my daughter is the greatest of all times.

And Ali looks at her, and I'll show you the picture.

I have it in my phone.

And he goes, listen,

there's only one greatest of all times, and it's me.

And my mom goes, yeah, no, I know you're good, but my daughter, so he gives me this, it's like you and I right here.

And I'm like looking down and I'm telling you, I couldn't breathe.

And he goes, your mom says you're good.

And I go, no, Mr.

Muhammad, I'm the greatest of all times.

And Mr.

Ali, like, I beat people up all the time, like every day.

And he looked at me and he says, I'm going to ask you to stop hitting people.

I said, yeah, but they irritate me

and they bother me.

He says, I'm going to ask you to stop hitting people.

I'm like, you hit people.

He goes, I get paid to hit people.

Interestingly, he's taking my information in like you are.

And when it was all said and done, he says, can you come back to the plaza where he was staying?

And we went up in his suite and we were there for four hours.

He's teaching me about racism.

He's teaching me about what hurts black America, the color of their skin, or people who are not, by and large, white.

And he taught me about philanthropy.

And he looks at me and he goes,

Nancy, you're going to shake up the world.

You're going to change the world.

And I'm like, I have a game on Tuesday.

Like, I'm not.

understanding what he's saying to me.

And then he says, God made you special.

And Dan, the thing that connected me for Ali for 37 years was my answer.

You know, God too?

That is so cool.

Like, what is he like?

Have you spent time with him?

And he looked at my mother and goes, I'm going to need your land number.

I'm going to need your physical address because I'm not letting her out there without me.

And

he would call me in college.

He would check in on me.

He was trying to come see me play, but the security was so difficult.

Every step of my life,

he was there and he would just check in on me.

And

I couldn't believe it.

And the things he taught me, he taught me to respect everybody, but fear nobody.

He says, you're going to encounter some hard times.

Humility is confidence.

Arrogance is not.

And I'd go,

float like a butterfly, sting like a bee.

It ain't bragging if you're good.

You know, and I would, we had this fun kind of

back and forth with each other as I got older.

And I came out of retirement like three times.

I'd sit at the house with him and I'm like,

you know I've come out of retirement more than you.

And he'd give me the lip.

Oh, but wait a minute.

You came out of retirement at 50?

You came out of retirement because you wanted your son to watch you play at at 39?

And

then the other time it's just hard to let go.

What was the age of the other time that you came out of retirement?

Well, I basically

retired after the WBL, the first women's league, folded.

There was no league for me to play in.

And then I got asked to play in the USBL, you know, six years later, which is the men's league equivalent, let's say, to the G-League.

Then

at 39,

then at 50, and I would always just joke with him.

But he'd give me that lip, and I'm like, stop it, stop the lip thing.

Lonnie, he's doing it again to me.

And we would just, he would just laugh with me, and he was just always there.

He came to my first game when I was coaching in the NBA, when we played the Phoenix Suns.

When you say that you were getting into fights all the time, it sounded like you just described that you were often winning them as well.

It's not like you were good with the fights, like that you were good at fighting.

I was.

I was.

I practiced on my brother.

And, you know, Ali, you know,

the jab.

And I became a little bit of a smartass because we'd fight.

And I'm like,

it's red.

You might want to get a tissue.

There's a lot of red here, too.

I was surviving with my mouth and then trying to just

you know let people know that you you're not going to be able to do that to me or to hurt me when did you come by your mother's support when did it arrive if at all i think my mom

you know after playing in the olympics and then all the media and i think you know it if dick were alive he'd tell you he'd ask her a question about um me and she'd say oh i was so proud of her you know she scored two touchdowns

He goes, she doesn't play football.

Well, you know, she scored

at baskets.

And he was actually helping my mother.

And I think she had to figure out, Ma, come to a game.

See what I do.

And, you know, don't tell me you shouldn't be doing that.

Girls don't play sports.

This is what the neighbors are saying.

I don't care what the neighbors are saying.

So, you know, I developed my mamba mentality

of

this is this is who I am, this is what I am, this is what I'm going to do.

I don't care what you say about me because

this is my ticket out.

This is, you know, I became my mother's mother and because she had nothing, like she's trying to survive.

And

sports was my vehicle.

Well, you became your mother's mother more literally at the end.

You had to leave a job with the Sacramento Kings to take care of her.

You were the first female assistant coach in the NBA.

Becky was the year before me.

Okay, forgive me, the second.

You were in a job that you were enjoying, or was it okay?

Loved it.

Vlade Divach was my GM and Paisia Strojakovich.

I loved it.

You know, I was doing what I loved.

I loved being around Rondo, and I loved being around DeMarcus and Rudy and, you know, Seth Curry and Nick Collison, Marco Bellinelli.

It was really, it was good stuff for me.

It gave me a chance to get to that next level, see what that next level was about.

We were a little dysfunctional with George Carl, to be quite honest, in Sacramento.

My mom got sick and I went into Vladis's office and I said, sir, I feel responsible for women's basketball and what comes up behind us.

And, you know, it's just,

Jackie Robinson comes into Major League Baseball, it's historic.

If Larry Dobie doesn't come after him, it's a tragedy.

If Becky gets hired, it's historic.

If Nancy doesn't get hired, it's a tragedy.

It could be Nancy, it could be Sue, it could be anybody.

But we can't have one-offs for the optics.

Growth is growth, and we have to be given opportunity and chance.

Oh, so you didn't want to quit.

You couldn't, like, it hurt you to quit anything.

Because I felt responsibility, and I'm not a quitter, but you know, in life you say, you know, it's God and family and job, and then you're in it, and it's money and money and status and family and God.

And I think people get that twisted when so much is being thrown at you.

And now I'm not poor, Nancy.

By that time, I'm rich, Nancy.

And now what's changed?

Are my priorities in line?

And

sometimes you have to check your own motives of what you're doing.

And I needed to be with my mom.

She's in Florida.

She's sick.

She's getting older.

She's in her 80s.

She's probably 88, 89.

And she has nobody.

So I said, Vladi, and he goes, it was great.

Nancy, you go to your mother.

Peja, Peja, come here, come here, Peja.

Peja walks in.

He goes, Nancy, it's what Vlade said.

You go to your mother, you have no regrets.

And I'm like,

okay.

And then he goes, I give you two-year extension.

I go, I don't want a two-year extension.

For nothing, something I'm not doing.

I don't want to take anything from somebody.

I have to earn what, that's how I believe my belief system.

Vlade is the best.

I love that man because he took the pressure off me.

So I'm with her.

My mother goes, you're never with me.

I go, I have 189 nights at the Marriott in Delray Beach.

What are you saying?

I'm not with you.

You know, the Jewish guilt?

You can't win?

And I'm like, I'm leaving.

I don't live here.

But I'm here as much as I can be here.

So

I'm at home, this is 2018.

You know, I step away after summer league in 2017

and I'm watching the NCAA tournament,

flipping back and forth on the men's and watching straight out of Compton.

My phone rings.

It's restricted.

I'm like, I'm not answering it.

And then I'm like, wait, you're a girl.

You're curious, right?

FOMO?

Oh, you might be missing an opportunity there of some sort.

So I'm like,

go right back to being New York.

I go, yo, who's this?

And he goes, yo, it's Ice Cube.

I'm like,

yo, do I call you Mr.

Cube, Mr.

Ice?

What do I call you?

He goes, call me Cube.

He goes, Nancy, I'm in a room with people who primarily look like me,

and I'm a man of equality.

And I said, sir.

He said, we would like for you to coach in the big three.

I know about your mom.

It's three months.

It's two days a week.

We'll schedule a game in Florida so you can see mom.

He said,

you'll be the first female head coach in a men's professional league.

I was like, well,

that's great.

I said, sir, are you checking a box?

Don't you hate when people do that to you?

And he says, no, I think you can win.

And I said, well, I really actually wanted to hear that.

And he goes, and tell your agent, you'll you'll be the highest paid coach in the league.

You'll make what Julius is making, what Michael Cooper, Gary Payton, Rick Berry, Rick Mahorn, George Gervin.

I'm like, the highest paid equality?

And he goes, yes.

I don't know about you, but I had never heard that before.

Well, you know, this is what you're going to get paid.

But he does the same description and he's making this.

Well, if you want to be here, this is what you're going to get paid.

So then you're like,

I need to get my foot in the door.

Do I push back too much?

You know, those are the life's choices.

And this guy is saying, you don't have to even worry about that.

Seven years later, I'm working for a black-owned business.

I'm working with someone who celebrates me, doesn't tolerate me.

And one of the really cool moments of my life was when we won the championship in 2018 at Barclay Center.

There's 17,000.

It's sold out, the confetti's coming down, and we're on that podium that we've seen so many times.

And here's Cube handing me the championship trophy, and I just looked at him and I said, thank you.

Thank you for the opportunity.

You don't know how good somebody can be if you don't give them a chance.

Your story wouldn't make any sense without basketball, right?

You would not have access to black culture as fluently as you do given your upbringing as a white Jewish girl.

Like, there would be

no access to that in a meaningful way, and yet it seems like your safest space.

It seems like your most fluent and comfortable space.

It is 100% comfortability for me because I get a chance to be a good leader of men, even though I coached in the W and I loved it, would do it again, coached in the NBA.

But I thrive in that environment.

I'm big Mike on the blind side.

I have protective instincts and I don't like to see underserved or minorities being treated poorly.

And I'm strong enough and clearly, you know, have done this for so many years.

I'm that person and

I will not let people hurt other people to the the best of my ability.

Two things can happen.

You can hire me, you can fire me.

But

like in my locker room, you can have your children run around the locker room.

You can have your wife, your granny,

your sister, your brother, your significant other.

30 minutes before the game, I'm from Baffair, out.

Don't be calling the locker room telling your husbands.

Your tickets aren't good enough.

He has a job to do.

This is his job.

Handle your business.

Let us handle our business.

These guys, this is maybe a soft landing to retirement.

Maybe these kids never saw what their daddy did for a living.

Maybe these kids were not even born.

But he has given you generational wealth.

And I want them to see what their dad did.

They're a good men.

am the first one to say that the myth

that black, Latino,

any of these different athletes, they're not good fathers.

They are hella great fathers and they love their kids and they love their family.

And I get so tired of hearing, well, you know, they got 10 kids.

And I'm like, cut the crap already.

What generation are you talking about?

So that's when,

Nancy, Fists up, Nancy, I don't like when people do that to my guys or other guys in the league for that matter because this is still my family and then I get to coach my son in this family environment and we got more we got more you know black kids coming into my home wherever I have lived and I look at my neighbors and I'm like

these this is my family you treat them with respect

don't don't do any of that you know

behind shady stuff this is my family these are good people So I'm very,

very protective.

You couldn't have dreamed, you couldn't have even dreamt this from what it is that you were like, even your wildest imagination couldn't have looked like what we're presently blossoming into.

What's happened in the last three years is supersonic.

I mean, you know, Caitlin is a dear friend of mine.

I remember when Lisa Bluter during COVID called me and said, hey, can you zoom with my team?

I got a player here.

I think you'll like her.

You know, she kind of plays like your style and whatnot.

And Paige got injured

the year before Paige won the Nancy Lehman Point Girl of the Year Award, and she got hurt a couple times.

And then the ascension of Caitlin.

So I got to know her through these Zooms every October.

And then she played in the championship game in Dallas three years ago.

And I remember being on the phone with her.

And I said, Caitlin, I don't know when we're gonna meet and she had already won the award a couple times I said I don't know when we're gonna meet I don't know how we're gonna meet but when we meet it's gonna be powerful

I'm sitting in the corner like here's the little locker room like you know the corridor to get to the locker room and she finishes doing her ESPN you know they're getting ready for the championship game against LSU They had beaten South Carolina.

And she's walking, and she's got all this security around her and we looked at each other

we hugged like we were hostages long lost friends it was so powerful and she goes you're coming in the locker room and I go no I don't have a pass and she has my hand she goes I'm your pass

and I'm walking with her like this is not my time this is her time and Lisa says please talk to the team and I go in the locker room and I'm like

I'm just so proud of you guys.

This building is full.

The ratings are going to be bananas.

Thank you.

Thank you for what you're doing for women's sports.

I was an unpaid pioneer.

Y'all with NILs, you're paid pioneers.

And I'm super happy for you.

Thanks for just, you know, kind of moving the needle.

And we've had so many of these these moments where, you know,

I've got a chance, you know, she's nice.

She'll text me, she goes, my goat, I go, stop calling me a farm animal.

And, you know, I'm goofy with her, like I'm goofy with her.

Your need for protection, though,

did it affect or damage or end your relationship with Cheryl Swoops that you were protecting or defending Caitlin Clark?

It's a great question.

I was very protective of Cheryl throughout her career.

Very, very close.

Took her, went with her to her first Espies

in

93 after they won the national championship.

And I'm on the treadmill that morning and she's trending on all different stations

and it pops up and I'm listening to it and I'm like,

wow.

So I picked up the phone and I called her.

Now she disputes this, but I did screenshot

to let her know the call happened.

And I said, hey,

I'm calling as your friend, as your sister.

She's not 25 years old.

She's not a 50 or senior, and she doesn't take 40 shots a game.

I said, your numbers are wrong.

And she goes, I can, you know, so she said to me, look, I can have my own opinion.

I go, absolutely, you can have your opinion.

But just get your numbers right.

You know, they're going to fact-check you.

And you can play it off.

You can meet Copa.

You can, you know, I was wrong.

And just take it on you.

And you're the hero of of the story.

But she dug in.

And

then

we got into it.

And I don't want to get into it with anybody, but it became so much larger than life.

And

I would do this for Angel Rees,

who I love.

I would do this for Asia Wilson, who doesn't need me.

We,

our generation,

we have to celebrate this generation.

We are about halfway into the football season and we've seen most of the celebrations that the players do after making a good play.

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Welcome to South Beach Sessions.

We've got someone with us today.

She's unrivaled in a lot of different ways.

She wins, right?

She's a four-time WNBA All-Star.

She's a two-time Olympic gold medalist.

She's an NCAA champion.

And she just won one-on-one in unrivaled a league she created.

Nafisa Call, you're with us.

Thank you for being with us.

A league she created.

I don't know in the list of things that I just said what you're proudest of, but I'll give you the chance to answer for yourself.

And thank you for joining us.

Yeah, thanks for having me.

That's definitely something I'm proud of just because obviously all the work that's gone into it,

you know, years of just planning this and, you know, Stewie and I just like from having it be a seed of an idea to having it turn into an entire league is just like a crazy thought, something I never would have thought or dreamed of, you know, growing up or in college or even a couple years ago.

So it's been really cool to kind of see the process of that.

Well, how did it come together?

This is with your husband, Alex.

That must present its own set of challenges.

Yeah.

Well, Alex is, I mean, he's like one of the smartest business people ever that I've ever met.

So he actually had a business, he had a business background before that.

But from Stu and I's side, we both had been in the league for several years by the time we started thinking of this.

And through that, you kind of just see the holes of like what's working, what's not.

And for a lot of WBA players they've been having to go overseas for years to supplement the income because we make money for you know six months out of the year so with that a lot of people don't realize that we make most of our money off the court so like 90% of the money I make is off the court and so you have to be able to activate with brands like brand building is a huge part of our business when you're overseas you're essentially going dark for six months out of the year so you can't activate with the brands you're losing money you're away from your family out of your home country missing holidays um and then on the flip side you still have to get better at basketball.

So staying at home and training is not the same as playing.

So kind of through all those things, we came up with Unrivaled.

And then also just the explosion that is happening in women's sports right now.

You see it with the college game and how the WNBA and just all sports are exploding.

And it feels like everyone is capitalizing off of that except for the people, the women who are playing.

And so that's where we really wanted to get into the salaries that we're paying.

the players and having equity in the league, really creating that generational wealth.

How old were you when you realized you were really, really good?

I would probably say eighth grade because I got my first college scholarship then.

And that was before they're really, they do it a little bit more now.

So I think that was it.

And I almost signed like on the spot, but my dad's the one that kind of pulled me and my mom off the ledge.

He's like,

who was sending it, though?

Who was it?

Mizzou.

Because, yeah, I was from Missouri.

And I was like, yes, I'm ready to sign.

He's like, you're 14 years old.

Let's hold on a little bit.

And so he was kind of the voice of reason through that.

Did you find yourself along the path then start gaining confidence right there?

Eighth grade is when that's happening?

Does it start pretty immediately?

No, I...

I've honestly always been blessed with really great coaches.

So my freshman year of high school, I went to Jeff City High School before I moved to my other school.

And I was actually the point guard there.

And he was a really tough coach.

He was like one of those coaches, exactly like Gino, like a yeller, really tough, expects a lot from you.

And so when you're with coaches like that, they never let your head get too big.

You know, they're always pushing you to be better, and he did.

And so it wasn't like I went in there thinking, you know, I'm the best player in the world.

I,

if people around here were being honest, they would tell you I often am lamenting that I wish I were a better leader.

I wish I knew more about leadership.

You just mentioned leadership.

When did you start to become one of those?

I would say when I got to Minnesota probably.

I mean, I tried in college a little bit, but I was just, I'm not a big, like vocally, I was not a leader.

I think I was, I tried to lead by example.

Like I always try to be the hardest worker and show that way, but I was really uncomfortable with like confrontation.

So holding people accountable, you have to be confrontational.

And so I feel like I started building the vocal side of it more when I was in Minnesota because again, Sylvia Fowles was my vet.

And

her and our coach knew she was retiring soon.

So they kind of like set me up for that a couple of years before that happened, like saying, you know, you're going to be in this leadership role.

We need you to start working on this, this, and this.

And so just like the first step of whatever is admitting you have a problem, like just acknowledging in those situations that, okay, this is something, this is somewhere I can grow.

Like this is somewhere where I can say something.

And just naturally, I got more and more confident in that.

Have you gotten good at confrontation?

I wouldn't say good.

It's something like I, it's not natural to me.

So it's something I'm, we'll always have to work on, but I'm definitely way better than I used to be.

But how do you, like, how do you process it in terms of awareness?

Because now you're, you're not emotionally getting into a fight with a teammate.

You're purposefully getting into a fight with a teammate, correct?

Yeah, well, I think still, like, that is not my confrontation style.

Like, the word is confrontational, but I'm not confrontational about it.

I try to come with it from like a point of reason.

So see why you're thinking that way and try to like meet you where you're at.

So I try to talk through in that way.

Wait a minute.

So you're just just being direct.

That's not confrontational.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Like direct, confrontational is going and trying to, you know, I don't need to explain this to you, but creating whatever friction or fuel there is in like, let me see if I can

consciously instigate so that this person is better, doing whatever I have to do to make this person better.

Yeah.

Yeah, not my leadership style still.

So conflict, confrontation is the wrong word then.

I feel like I'm more direct.

Like if I see a problem, I'll say it, but I'm not like trying to get it where you're riled up and in a fight.

I'm trying to reason with you.

And you've discovered that you are a good leader?

Like what is it that's giving you the understanding that you are a good leader?

I mean, I hope I'm a good leader.

I try to be a good leader for my team.

I think

a sign is that like I think my team is respect me and they listen to me when I talk.

I think that's a sign of a good leader is when you say something, they actively try to do what you're saying.

We were talking before we started though, and I'm not going to say you apologize for being a soft talker, but you did admit that on the court, you have to summon an entirely different voice than your voice in order to be heard above the crowd, in order to to what?

Yeah, yeah, I don't know what it is.

I think just like the level that my voice is at naturally, it's hard to hear in loud situations, so I have to make it usually lower, but sometimes higher so it kind of breaks above or below like what the noise is.

So that you can be heard by your teammates in critical moments.

Yeah, especially on the court.

Like, this is just communication stuff, like that a screen is coming so they don't get cracked or like what we're doing on offense or defense.

The first thing you have to do is lower your voice on octave upon recognition.

Yeah.

Yeah.

To change your natural cadence.

So a lot of things in basketball by you have had to be learned

in order to successfully navigate the place that represents what I imagine is the most confident version of you we've ever seen.

Yes.

Yeah, for sure.

Yeah.

I mean, I think the vocal side is definitely the most.

I was, I mean, growing up, I would say I was pretty shy.

Like, I wasn't a really vocal person, and that started in college.

Where, of course, they say the thing you have to do on defense, you have to talk, talk, talk.

It was like exhausting for me to talk.

Now it's so natural.

I mean, I've been doing it for years, obviously.

But that was like so exhausting that you have to be always talking and calling out on defense and cheering for your team.

Like, I couldn't think of anything worse.

Exhausting.

It was exhausting, truly.

Emotionally draining.

Yes.

When I'm already physically so tired and then I have to talk the whole time.

Because why?

What is happening there that would make that so exhausting?

I think it's because,

I mean, honestly, I don't know.

I wasn't used to it.

Like, I never had to do it really before.

But it's forced, so it's not authentic.

It's not natural.

It's something that has to be learned, conscious, and get to hear, but it's not any kind of natural.

Now it is.

When I was learning it, it wasn't.

Now it is so natural.

Like, I don't even think twice about it.

Like, in fact, if you don't do it, it's like, so like a faux pas.

It's bad.

But before, I was like, oh, I have to talk again.

We're talking this whole time.

Like, don't you know the screens come?

You can't see them.

So it was hard at first.

Did anyone ever say to you, hey, I can't hear you.

You're talking too low?

Or you just learned over time?

I've got to go deeper.

No, it was because I was like screaming.

I was yelling as loud as I could.

And they're like, we can't hear you.

I'm like, I don't know what else I need to do.

So I started making my voice like higher or lower and they could hear me.

So would you be kind enough?

Not that you're a parrot, but would you be kind enough to show me what the octave changes are between high and low?

I don't know if you are in between.

Well, I just want to see what the difference is so that I can understand it between high and low, unless that makes you uncomfortable.

I don't want to make you uncomfortable.

So usually I'd be like, screen.

But especially like when I'm having to go really fast, my voice goes higher.

So I'm like, screen.

So it's really loud like that.

Or I'm like, we're going to trap.

We're trapping.

Like try to make it a little lower.

So just whatever it is, like whatever what my normal voice isn't, try to make it different so they they can hear.

You mentioned unrivaled having amenities that are thought of by people who have experienced things that are needed to be great professionally.

You have a child care center, right?

That's one of the things that you have put in place.

What are some of the other things that you have tried to do, at least in part, because of your experiences of not having them come while you came up?

Yeah, so we went over a list of like must-haves.

So you have to have a weight room, which actually not everybody has you have to have a training room we have to have you know like those just things that you have to have okay what can we make those how can we elevate those so we got like the best of all the equipment in the weight room we got the best of all the equipment in the training room where we don't have the stuff in the W like these equipments that we're using and then it's like okay we have our necessities now what would what we just want just to make the experience better so we have like a sauna we have an esthetician room we have like a makeup room we have you know hot and cold tubs which that's more of a necessity, but just stuff like that, where it's not a necessity, but it's nice to have.

It makes the experience nice.

We have a masseuse on call like every week or every day.

And so things that will elevate the experience in that way, where it's like,

you know, we want to make this better than what we've had.

It's not just meeting our needs.

We want to make it a professional experience where you have things that are just nice to have too.

Are you able to concentrate on just your basketball portion of it and Alex and others can handle the business or do you have to do all of the roles?

I

don't have to do all the roles, but I definitely am intermingling with things.

I mean, when I'm in the facility, I am with my team, I definitely try to focus on basketball, but then you'll have players come up to you and be like, we want this, or can this happen?

Or, you know, what's going on with this?

And so you kind of step into that role.

And then at the end of the day, Alex tells me everything that goes on on the business side.

And then, like, if I have an opinion about something, then you step into that role.

So there's definitely some intermingling, but I try to keep when I'm there, like, I'm with my team.

I'm locked in.

Well, when you say, though, that it's been years in the making, I don't know what it's like to work with your partner on something this

intertwined.

What are the complications in that?

And what are the fulfillments?

Yeah.

We have a lot of practice because, like I said, he was my trainer for like several years before we started dating.

And so when we transitioned over to dating, it was really hard to work together like um

we were questioning like should i get a new trainer just because it's hard to switch that off where you know we're partners but you're telling me what to do like when and you're critiquing me when i'm playing and then all of a sudden like i think you have an attitude or you think i have an attitude it's like hard to listen so we had to have like a conversation where when we step on the court this is now you know teacher student environment like you need to listen to me um i won't be getting an attitude if i think you're not listening like whatever it is like, set that aside.

And once we did that, it was great.

So, you kind of have to establish those boundaries.

So, we had some practice in that a little bit.

And then, once it switched over to Unrivaled, it was just really collaborative because I kind of defer to him on the business side.

He knows all the business stuff, and he defers to me on the player experience side because I know that.

So, I think we just did a really great job of trusting each other in our different categories.

And then you come together to create the best product.

How did it come to be that the trainer relationship blossomed into romance?

So it was my junior year at UConn, and

Alex was training a couple of the players on the Knicks.

So he was in New York a lot, and I was struggling my junior year.

And so he would like come down to help me train.

I'm like, I need to get some reps in because I'm not feeling good.

So we'd come down a train, and it's like a three-hour drive.

So we would hang out for a little bit after we'd go to dinners or, you know, just hang out and talk about the season stuff.

And I guess it just like naturally progressed.

Okay, but I'm going to need a little bit more information here about like how how

is it that it comes to be that you have, I wasn't thinking about this at all this way before, and now, oh, I'm, he's going to be the father of my children.

There are definitely some years between us.

It seems that there's some, there's some holes in your story right now in terms of how it is that you're telling me how we get from, he's pushing you around, he's training you out.

First of all, how does he become your trainer?

Let's start there.

So the first time I met him was right before I left for UConn, and I had a different trainer.

And one of my friends was just like, you know, I'm going to this workout with this guy from the company they were with was called Pierceweat.

I'm going to Pierceweat.

We're going to work out.

Do you want to just join me for this workout?

So that's like technically the first time I met him.

I was like, oh, I actually really like what he's doing.

And then, you know, I go to college.

I have that horrible year.

I'm like, I need to get better in this offseason.

And I knew I wanted to, you know, move on for my other trainer.

He was starting to.

you know, transition out of training.

And Alex was the only person I knew.

And I'm like, I really liked what he was doing.

And so that's how he became my trainer.

Like I said we worked together for like what three years doing that and then he went to New York and I don't know I just thought he was really cute and we were spending a lot of time together and you get to know people more that way like it's not like I'm only seeing you on the court more.

No, I could see your personality more.

I could tell he was getting flirty too

and I think he just like asked me out on a date one day.

We went to dinner.

He's not like he ever asked me to be his girlfriend.

We just started hanging out a lot after that and it kind of just

I think the first title we had was like engaged because I don't know if he ever like asked me to be his girlfriend.

Super interesting time to be with you too, though, right?

Like those, those three years, he's seeing, he's got a pretty unique access to you now are going to start flourishing into the professional person that you've become.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I would say so.

I mean, and he had a lot of experience.

He worked with a lot of NBA players.

So he kind of saw the progression of that.

Like he worked, for example, I mean, he worked with Trey Young since he was in high school.

So he see like the levels of it.

Like obviously they accelerate a lot faster.

They don't go through college the same way.

But so he kind of, it was cool to kind of lean on his expertise in that too, because I had no idea what to expect.

I didn't have any WBA friends, you know.

And so just knowing what that process looks like, kind of being able to, you know, he knows what agents, like what agents you're supposed to look for in an agent, how, you know, deals are supposed to be done.

So kind of leaning on his expertise in that too.

When you're coming up, your dreams look like what?

Have you already exceeded them?

Um,

I mean, I never had a dream to be a WBA player, so I would say yes.

I, I mean, when I was little, like, I wanted to be a teacher, and then I wanted to be a doctor, and then, you know, I wanted to be a hairstylist.

I love playing with hair.

I think I just naturally accidentally fell into professional basketball.

Like, I just loved playing sports.

I had to pick a sport to stick with when I was in high school.

And I'm like, I'm the best at basketball.

basketball i'll stick with basketball it turned into like okay i want to get my school paid for and then i get to go to college i'm like oh this is the best school and then once you get there i'm like okay i have a chance to be a professional athlete like so i kind of just took it one step at a time it's not like i'm like my ultimate goal is to be a wba player but when you've done goals and stuff uh have you met most of them um I've met a lot, but not all.

I mean, going to my rookie year, I had a goal to be rookie of the year because there's just so much happening that year.

I mean, you're going from college to a new team,

new city, new everything.

You scored, what, 27 points in your first game?

I know.

Well, that's why I'm like, I need something to focus me.

Like, I want to be rookie of the year.

And I had a horrible preseason, actually.

I think I had four points between both the games.

And I felt like how I did my freshman year at college.

But, like, luckily, I was able to...

I'd been there before.

I was able to recognize it.

I'm like, I'm never feeling that way again.

So I came out my first game.

I'm like, I don't care.

I'm just going to play basketball.

And I never looked back in that sense.

So this period of anxiety lasted a couple of games.

Yeah.

And you recognized it.

Yeah.

You recognized the feeling, whatever it was, the feeling of the water rising in the room.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I was feeling not confident because it was essentially the same situation.

Like you're going in where everyone's better than you again.

They have more experience.

You're the freshman again.

And like as a new system, blah, blah, blah.

And I'm like, oh, I'm just playing not confidently.

And that's the feeling I don't like is not being confident in what you're doing.

It makes you second-guess everything.

It's the worst feeling.

And so I recognized that's what was happening.

I'm like, I'm not doing a whole nother season like this.

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What is the worst of the professional experiences that you have had?

Like, would that represent the greatest of the professional hardships?

Because you...

You've you've had a lot of success.

Yeah.

You've had a lot of success early.

There's not a lot of evidence anyone can spot of these anxieties and these doubts you speak of.

Like, is that the the worst mentally that I've been sincere?

You said professionally, you had this period of doubt that lasted a couple of preseason games, and then you scored 27 in your first one.

Yeah.

And I don't know that you've probably done a lot of doubt since.

No, I mean, I do.

Just like everyone, I think it like comes and goes, but for me, being able to recognize it is...

like great for me because I feel myself like especially you get that like mid-season slump where you're not in the gym the same because you're just tired you're going from game to game you're not getting in the same reps so like you feel less confidence like when you don't study for a test you go and you're anxious because you you don't know anything like when i when you study you go and i feel great so mid-season where it's like you're just in the dead of everything you're not practicing as much i don't feel as confident And I'm able to recognize that.

And then I'm like, okay, I need to get in reps in.

So I'm not feeling this way in the game.

Cause I'll have a game where like I'm hesitating before I shoot or I'm like, should I?

And that's when I'm in my worst spot is when, honestly, when I'm thinking like that.

And so, yeah, just making sure that I'm aware when I'm feeling that way.

Well, is this what you're referencing when you say 80% of the game is mental?

Like, what are the things that you're talking about when you say, because you don't really believe that most of the WNBA players have your skill set, right?

Or most of the top six picks in any draft have exactly your skill set, or do you believe they do have that skill set and what you have is a mental advantage?

I honestly think it's both.

Like, I recognize I'm a very skilled,

I'm an athlete.

Like, I'm a very skilled athlete.

Can I run the fastest note?

Can I jump the fastest note?

Can I do all these things?

No, I'm not the best at any of those.

I think I've worked really hard on my footwork.

I think my footwork is one of the best in the league for sure.

But mentally, like, I believe I'm the best when I'm out there.

Like, when I get to mine certain spots, I know I'm going to score.

And I think you see that in a lot of players.

Like, I think Trey is a great example of that.

Is he the best at anything?

No, but he has so much confidence in himself.

It makes him one of the best players in the league.

Like, he's able to do incredible things, not because of his talent, he is very talented, but because he has so much belief in himself.

And I think you see that with other players, like Ben Simmons, who is so talented, but his mental is like he's come out and said he struggles really hard mentally with his confidence in himself, and he's not able to do the things that he should be able to do.

So, I really believe that sports is 80/20, mental and physical.

And you feel like you're sturdy there, right?

Like, if I, if I say to you, what is your greater advantage, your mental or your footwork?

I would say my mental.

Yeah.

When you speak of your footwork, can you explain to people when I, this is where I sort of say, what's the cost of that?

Like it's such a

meticulous thing that you have to be taking care of so specifically until it becomes totally natural now.

But what was the cost of getting your game that sculpted?

Yeah.

To me, it wasn't a cost.

To me, it was great because it the foundation of it was that sophomore, like that freshman summer, going to my sophomore year of college, where I was just so determined to not feel like shit anymore when I played that I wanted to be in the gym.

Like, I was doing two days every single day.

I would do skill work in the morning.

I would shoot in the afternoon, every single day.

And so learning that.

And then when you start seeing the reps go down and it feels good, you're playing.

pick up, you're playing one-on-one.

I'm like, I am scoring every single time.

Like, it builds your confidence.

And after that, it becomes natural in the way that you add it to your game.

But yeah, I mean, you have to do so many reps for things to become second nature.

How do you do losing?

I remember in Miami when LeBron James was the centerpiece of losing, where it looked like at the end, five minutes left with Dallas.

He's swinging the ball in the perimeter because he doesn't want to have the ball anymore.

He described himself as castaway, where he goes away for a month and just stews in his misery.

What was the losing to the Liberty like?

Yeah, it was awful.

I mean, I felt a lot of anger.

I've not been, you know, quiet about like how I felt about the finals.

So I was riding on anger for a really long time.

And it's still something that like I used to motivate myself even now.

I mean, I feel like it has pushed me to be honestly a better player because I...

In the way that I play, I feel like I never want to be in that situation again where I'm having to complain about the refs, which everyone is saying, you know.

I want it to be where we're winning by so much it doesn't matter what the refs are calling.

Like, and so I think it's changed my mindset and the way that I see the game, honestly, and it's made me a better player because of it.

Angry for how long?

Like, how did you...

Anger is just information.

So what is it that you're doing with this anger and how long are you stewing in it?

I think it's changed my mentality, honestly.

It's made me more mentally strong.

And so during the games, I feel like sometimes I would like coast a little bit where you have, you know, quarters or a couple of minutes where you're like, you don't need to be involved and, you know, you're kind of like LeBron at the end of the 19, like swinging the ball, stuff like that.

Now I just feel super locked in.

Like, I want to make sure that I'm contributing to the team.

It doesn't even have to be scoring, but like, I need to be going out there and I need to be playing great defense.

I need to be getting rebounds, whatever it is, where I'm locked in.

And just, I would just say, it just, it just gave me an edge to when I play and how I play.

How often do you play angry?

Honestly, I feel like more and more.

Just because, you know, like in the Jordan documentary, he's like, I took that personally.

I feel

like it's easy to find little things that you take personally and it makes you play with an edge.

So

I don't know.

You just like find little stuff that kind of pisses you off.

And I play better when I'm mad because it makes me really focused.

So, yeah.

I thought it was better to keep the emotion out of it.

You found a governor.

Like, give me some of the stuff people are doing to piss you off.

Like, who's pissing you off?

How are they doing it?

Well, I don't like other people to see that I'm mad.

So that is something that I still stick to.

It's like, I don't want you to know I'm mad, but I need to use it as fuel for myself.

So, I mean, like, just, you know, people are chirping or they're, you know, fouling you or they're complaining about something, saying, like, oh, that wasn't a foul or whatever it is.

You can find anything to get mad about.

That's nice, though, but stoicism.

You're not going to let them have to.

I want you to know.

You're not going to let them have the pleasure.

You're going to have to quietly stool

of the pleasure of knowing that then they've won.

You can't let let them have that.

You just have to let them give you just enough fuel so you use it as rage to eat their face.

Yes, absolutely.

Okay, I'm glad I articulated it for you that way.

Do you, as you won the one-on-one of Unrivaled and you are determined how much to win, to bring the Lunar Owls the title so that you can be co-founder, so you can be greedy about it.

So you can be champion of one-on-one, created the league, and also won the team title.

Yeah, I want to be super greedy about it.

I mean,

and also, like, we're working our butts off.

We are in the weight room every single day, all five of us.

We are in the training room every single day, all five of us, taking care of our bodies the way that we stay locked into practice.

Like, we are making it so,

like, there's no competition.

Like, we want it to be where we're winning every single game.

Like, we're mad that we lost one game, you know?

And so, yeah, I mean, especially when there's 50 bands on the line for the winner, like, we're taking it really seriously.

We want to win.

Where does this rank in terms of community feeling that you've had with five players before?

Because nobody can really understand, unless you've done it, what those bonds are like.

Yeah, I would definitely compare this more to college, where because we're just in such a confined space and there's only five of us.

So there's not like you have clicks that can form on the team.

We're so small already.

We are our own clique.

And so, and just you know, the adversity of going through this together.

Like, there's a huge target on your back.

Everyone thinks whatever they do about your team because you're winning so much.

And, you know, everyone is happy when you lose that one game.

It's like their Super Bowl when you lose.

So it brings you closer together.

So it's been really fun.

I mean, and this team is so competitive.

Like, it's been really fun to be a part of.

How about the fulfillment involved in providing

something that might one one day be bought by the WNBA or like just the fulfillment of these people having employment because of something you made.

How much of that are you getting daily?

I don't know that I feel fulfilled yet because there's still so much we want to do.

Like we, there's a lot more that we want to do and I think we've done amazing for our inaugural season and I think we're changing the landscape.

the landscape of women's sports.

Like you see it rising.

I mean overseas contracts are going up, domestic league contracts are going up.

We're about to go we're in our CBA for the WNBA and so I think I'll feel I'll feel fulfilled when we see those contracts change and see you know unrivaled keep going and our contracts keep going up here and just like changing what it means to be a woman's athlete.

Are you hard on yourself?

I would say yes.

I think all professional

I think people at the top of their, anyone at the top of anything is hard on themselves.

That's how you get there.

I'd like to be better.

It's something something I'm always fighting with of being more forgiving, more gentle with myself, but you're saying it's kind of a, it's a job requirement.

I mean, I think it's how you get to where you are.

If you're,

and this is probably a toxic take, but like, if you're so forgiving with yourself, how are you going to push yourself to be better?

And like, how are you going to push yourself to be the greatest at something and be the best if you're not expecting that of yourself?

Do you have a reason?

Like, can you tie to roots?

Why do you want to be the best?

Why is it so important?

Like,

where is all of that coming from?

I would assume you're surrounded by people who would allege that they want the same thing.

Yeah.

And

you would notice they don't want it quite as much as I do.

Yeah.

Honestly, I think just,

I feel like it's like getting greedy, honestly.

Like,

especially because I am naturally gifted, so I have naturally been better from a younger age.

I was like,

I saw that.

And so you get used to that feeling.

And then you get people who are more talented and you're like well I want that feeling back so I have to work harder and then you get to the next step and people are more talented and it's like cha it's running away from that feeling of you know I'm not the best anymore and so I think that's probably what it is honestly

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