The ‘Battlestar Galactica’ Two-Part Episode That Got Us Hooked

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Hello, welcome back to the Prestige TV podcast feed.

I'm Joanna Robinson.

I'm Rob Mahoney.

And we are here with a very special guest here to talk to us for our hooked.

Battlestar Galactica podcast.

I could only think of one possible person.

Is she a Cylon?

Hard to say.

She doesn't sleep and she remembers everything.

So

she might be.

It's Mallory Rubin.

Oh, Joanna, Rob, all of this has happened before, including when we recorded together for multiple hours just this morning.

And all of this will happen again.

The thrill of my life to be here with you guys today.

I mean, always the thrill of my life to pod with you both, but to talk about my favorite show.

I just, I can't believe it.

A lot of faves going around.

Mallory and I are watching Buffy over on House of R.

Rob and I checked in on Lost, and we will get another Rob.

The people are clamoring for a Rob Lost check-in.

So we will do that at the end of this.

They really are.

We will do that at the end of this podcast.

Rob will let us know how it's going over on the island.

But we need to.

But, Joe, I mean, as a testimonial, again, like, I am fully hooked.

Like, I am, I'm, I am so hooked, I cannot put it down.

I'm so hooked that I basically got COVID as an excuse to mainline episodes.

You know, it does, our podcast does work, it turns out.

We didn't just hook Rob.

We hooked Rob's wife.

The whole family is now watching Lost.

It's very exciting.

So, yeah, if you're just joining us for the first time for a hooked episode of the Prestige TV podcast, what we've been doing is going through some big

and also Veronica Mars television shows that we love.

Be respectful.

Big to me and big to the world.

And asking ourselves the question: if you were trying to get a friend or a partner to watch a show with you, what's the one episode you would show them to get them hooked?

Yes.

If it's not the pilot, uh, so within the case of Lost, we watched the pilot, but in all these other discussions, we have not been picking the pilot.

We let our guest today, Mallory Rubin, pick the episode that we would talk about.

And we'll get to that in a second.

Quick, the briefest, and I should say, there's a lot to talk about.

There's three of us here today.

We're going to do our best to get through everything that we have to say, but we all are very passionate about this.

And I'm so excited that Mallory's here.

Here's a quick snapshot of Battlestar Galactica.

If folks are new to this concept, okay?

Battlestar Galactica was a reboot of a 70s show with its own very complicated backstory, which we don't have time for, which first became a mini-series in 2003 and then ran for four seasons and two movies from 2005, at least in the US, to 2009.

It put the sci-fi channel on the map, perhaps inspiring the Schmancier sci-fi SYFY rebranding in 2009, spawned two ill-advised spin-offs, gave us all complicated feelings about tank top layering, and inspired the greatest Portlandia sketch of all time.

Undeniably.

Yeah.

Is this a backdoor James Callis-based promo for our upcoming Slow Horses coverage?

Who's to say?

I couldn't tell you.

I am to say, Joe, because he's basically playing Gaius Baltar again.

On Slow Horses.

And we, and we, I, I wish his character on Slow Horses was as sharp as Gaius Baltar is.

And I think he's a little, a little stupider on Slow Horses.

Anyway, I have to challenge you a little bit.

Caprica slammed.

Yeah, I knew.

I knew it.

i knew you were gonna defend i knew you were gonna defend capricoric

i knew it nobody on zoom today will defend blood and chrome i don't think but i was pretty sad when caprica got canceled me too

a fun fact that i want to say about the

precious stew that is uh battlestar galactica is that when it premiered in the 1970s in the 1970s it was so close to Star Wars that George Lucas and Fox like successfully sued them over it.

Ron Moore, of course, came from a Star Trek background.

He's a next-gen D-Space 9 guy, so he brings that sensibility over.

They're inspired by aliens, and also Rob's favorite West Wing is also something they were deeply inspired by making this.

It's just like the crossroads of so many impactful IPs inside, and it is like one of the best examples of what to do with rebooted IP.

Mallory Rubin,

what is the personal significance for you?

Battlestar Galactica.

This is one of my three favorite shows of all time.

Might be my favorite show of all time.

I'll be curious to check in with myself on that and with you guys after I finish this rewatch, which this one podcast has started for me.

Another satisfied customer.

Causing trouble all across the board.

Yeah.

As Joe knows,

my husband, Adam, and I, this is a shared favorite of ours.

And we, you know, have watched it start to finish together a couple times.

And we've been talking for the last few years about how we were really overdue for a rewatch.

So we didn't need much of an excuse to dive back in.

This was like the gentlest twist our arms, why don't you, that we've maybe ever had.

Um, but I just adore this show, and it's like one of the first shows, actually, along with Lost, one of my other top shows of all time, that Adam and I like really fell deeply into together.

So, it's like a big part of our relationship, it's just something we really love.

Um, the writing, the acting, the directing, the scoring, the formal and structural innovation, the tone, the ideas.

You know, I think like it's a, as Joe already kind of hit on, like a

new and very particular spin on a classic concept.

What does it mean to be human?

What is worth fighting for?

How do you think about rebuilding?

What are you even trying to rebuild?

If you've already lost, right?

That's where we start, is that they've lost.

And that is just such a delicious place to be.

The way that this show across its seasons and its movies

explores simultaneously the human capacity for failure and perseverance is, I think, really unmatched.

The characters to me are indelible.

These are just some of my favorite characters in a show ever and the relationships that they share with each other, which we'll talk about, you know,

some of the showcase moments for those in the episodes that we chose.

Just the best.

The way that the show explores identity, faith, the things that we love to talk about, you know, prophecy, religion, the idea of destiny, our role in

the affairs that guide the world, the choices that you make, the conflict that you face, the way that personal and professional obligations are often on a collision course with each other.

It's just the perfect brew of all the things I love.

So say we all.

So say we all.

It is hard to overstate, maybe impossible to overstate, how much this show fucking rules.

It is so good.

It has been so long since I have spent a significant amount of time with it.

Love that.

I've been watching actually.

Watched it like more or less in real time, a little slight delay, but caught up.

I haven't seen it start to finish then in like 15 years, basically.

And so, a show that I have a long-lasting relationship with, but have been plucking episodes for rewatches here and there.

It has been such a delight to be back in this world again, especially flashing back to

my college apartment.

On the walls of my college apartment, I had various prints from the basketball blogging collective Free Darko.

I had a couple of movie posters: Empire Strikes Back, Taxi Driver.

I'm sorry, I am who I am.

The Australian Western, The Proposition was represented.

And most notably in our case today, the giant widescreen Last Supper photo print of the Battlestar Galactica cast.

Speaking of iconic, just a show that knew, I think maybe not even right out of the gate exactly what it wanted to be, but found it and secured it so tightly in terms of tone, in terms of ideas.

There's so much happening here.

And I think ultimately, Joe, this is just one of the great world-building successes in modern television history uh which makes me a little it's a little bittersweet to not be picking the mini series because the mini series is really good it rips and we'll talk about it

we will definitely talk about it um

rob did you know that i own the proposition on dvd i mean as you should that movie is amazing i feel like that doesn't mean much when it comes from someone who has like a huge dvd collection but i literally have like two shelves of dvds and one of them is the proposition

one of 30 dvds that you own is the proposition exactly with my veronica mars box sets okay anyway listen um my experience with Battlestar Galactica is I did not watch it when it originally aired.

And in fact, I was just like in the process of meeting a new friend group while it was airing, and they would get together every week and make dinner and watch Battlestar Galactica.

And no one ever invited me.

And that's okay because I was new to the friend group.

But I was like, but I wasn't watching the show.

No, no, no.

So they just like didn't consider it.

They had been doing it for like a couple of years.

And I would just hear about it.

I'd be like, oh my God, I want to be invited over to make dinner and watch a TV show together.

And it was like a different, a much nerdier group of friends than I had ever hung out with before.

And it was my real introduction to that kind of really communal spirit around something as deeply nerdy and fandom-y as Battlestar Galactica.

So this is like, we've talked about how Buffy Vampire Slayer introduced me to like message boards.

This introduced me into like real time

share the room with the people you love and watch the thing together and then talk about it kind of fandom.

I watched it later on like, I believe discs that I ordered through Netflix and then eventually like got the box set, uh, like, really sick box set for Battlestar Galactica.

Um, just because I was like, I feel like I'm missing this really important uh thing, and I want to know what everyone's talking about.

In terms of like, you know, Mallory hitting the theme so beautifully, uh, Rob talking about sort of its

place in the larger pantheon of world building, something I love about Battlestar Galactica is that uh, they employed so many writers that have worked on other things that I've loved, um, including like thinking about Ron Moore, bringing his Star Trek brain, bringing like his Deep Space Nine,

you know, what it means to be the captain of something, Cisco brain to Adama, something like that, like all that stuff, the nuts and bolts of the writer's room around this are really interesting to me.

And

I've been listening, my

friend, friend of the pod, Mark Bernardin, hosted a Battlestar Galactica podcast, Rewatch, with Tricia Helfer.

And I was re-listening to some episodes and I was shocked to hear Ron Moore say that when they were sort of first kicking around this IP,

the reason they came up with having the Cylons look like humans was a budgetary one.

They didn't have the budget to just do, and so they're like, oh, what if they just look like humans?

That's the show.

Like, that is the show.

And it's like necessity being the mother of invention.

Like, I love this shit.

I love when you're just like backed into a corner.

You're like, huh, well, what if they look like humans?

Oh, oh, my fucking God.

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That just changes everything.

That is Battlestar Galactica to me.

So here's the spoiler warning.

We uh we will talk a little bit about the miniseries.

We might also talk about 33, which is season one, episode one.

So there's a complicated sort of like there are a couple different pilots, quote unquote, for the show.

But Mallory Rubin has chosen the season one finale two-parter.

Yeah.

Season one, episode 12, and season one, episode 13, Koble's Last Gleaming.

Incredible shit.

So spoiler warning up through the season one finale of Battlestar.

I'm going to give this to you for in a second, Mallory, to sort of tell us why it was this pick.

But just to refresh people,

this was story by David Icke, teleplay by Ron Moore, directed by Michael Reimer, who directed both 33 and the miniseries as well.

This is the one where things get real religious.

Starbuck goes rogue for the first and very last time in search of a prophecy artifact.

The Opera House makes its first appearance.

Sharon, one Sharon tries to kill herself and fails.

Hila tries to kill the other Sharon and fails.

And the first Sharon tries to kill Commander Adama.

Does she succeed?

Tune to next season to find out.

That Koble's Last Gleaming.

Mallory, this is even wilder than Rob's Veronica Mars picks, which was like a few episodes deep into season one.

We gave you no limits.

We said you could pick whatever you wanted to pick.

Yep.

Tell us why it was Cobalt's Last Gleaming for you.

Should we also get into here why it's not 33 in the miniseries or save that?

I guess I'll do like a very big picture opening snapshot.

We'll get to that.

Yeah.

To quote my favorite television character of all time, William Adama, Commander Adama.

You got to lose control, let your instincts take over.

So when presented with his prompts.

When

knuckle, like bare knuckle boxing your side.

Yeah, exactly.

That's what I did.

I would like to, without fully undermining this episode of this series that I love that you guys are doing,

say

I am a terrible guest for hooked because I would never, as you both know, genuinely never actually suggest that somebody start anywhere other than the miniseries.

Never.

But

I think what you guys are trying to do here is really interesting.

And I think acknowledging that for some people, the barrier to entry of three hours for the miniseries is maybe too high.

And then also

the like question people have of whether they're even supposed to start there.

Like it's not listed on an episode guide half the time, you know?

I want to acknowledge that.

So we'll get to some of the other considerations with that in 33 later.

But I will say, like, this is not to me saying people should start the show here.

People should start the show.

with the first second and watch every second of it and then feel that their life is enriched and better than it was before they shared that experience.

So I'm not prepared to argue that.

What I am prepared to argue is that the two-part season one finale, Kobo's Last Gleaming, parts one and two, is not only in keeping with, I think the Battlestar is like the TV's holy grail for the premieres and finales, the mid-season breaks are always actually fucking amazing.

And every other television show wishes they could do that.

And they're often two-part bangers.

I feel it's representative in that respect.

I think that this is like, this connects to something you guys have been talking about a lot.

This is when I think the the show became what it was going to be the rest of the way.

This is when the show became a fully realized text that hits on every single aspect of what it is interested in exploring in all of the seasons that will follow.

And I think it does so beautifully.

I think the way that it ingrains, it entwines

action, propulsive plot,

but is always rooted in complex character dynamics.

It's a big expansion of the lore and the mythology.

And I think actually, weirdly, it's like we could parse this more, but kind of like spoiler light in terms of like going back after you watch this and revisiting the first season.

I don't think it saps like a ton on that front.

Certainly there are things that you learn here that you do not know before, but I think it's less damaging in that respect than some season finales could otherwise be.

So I think it's the best thing to show somebody before you go too deep into like season season two, three, four, which you would never do.

That would be unthinkable, to say, this is why this is one of the best television shows ever made.

You're asking me why in 2025, I'm trying to get you to watch another story about AI taking over mankind,

human beings being undone by their creation.

I need you to understand right away that this is distinct and this is God tier.

And I think Kobo's Last Gleaming shows that in a way that I think 33 does not.

Well, I am surprised none that the hosts of House of Var, when both given a chance to nominate a hooked episode, both smuggled in two parters.

This is not shocking to me.

That said, look, this is deep into the, obviously, it's the season one finale.

You're going to have missed some stuff.

It is a tough entry point per the hooked premise, as you alluded to, Mal.

You should start with the miniseries.

Full stop.

You should start with the mini series.

Absolutely.

You should.

But I think part of the reason we want to talk about Battlestar Galactica, at least certainly part of the reason I want to.

This is another show that has, I think, a pretty high barrier to entry between the mini-series element and most importantly, the name Battlestar Galactica self-selects for a certain kind of viewer.

And Kobo's Last Gleaming is a great entry point for people who don't think they want to watch Battlestar Galactica to show them all of those different colors that you're talking about, Mao, all the different dimensions that the show is ultimately going to be able to fold in.

You put this on, and it's not like if you haven't been watching or you're coming in as an entry point, you're not going to know everything that's happening.

Clearly, there's going to be some things that are beyond you, but everything that you're absorbing makes you want to know where these characters have been and where these characters are going to go.

And that, I think that makes it a good hooked episode.

I think also,

you know, as I mentioned, and we will, we will get to as we talk about it a little bit more, but like this is

this idea of like sort of prophecy or belief

is part of the whole series from the beginning.

So say we all is all about, you know, this is a religious call and response, you know, that Adama adopts at the end of the mini series, right?

So like that's not new to this episode, but it levels up in a significant way in this episode that feels so

impactful to the rest of the series and the way in which, you know, Ron Moore announces like, we're not shying away from this at all.

We are doubling down on this.

Something that I found out.

That I didn't know in preparation for this

is that I didn't know that the original creator of Battlestar Galactica was Mormon.

And I was like, once I found, once I learned that, I was like, oh, this is real.

It's all right there.

Under the banner of heaven stuff in terms of like the visions and are they real or are they hallucinations?

And all these other things are all sort of like baked into that.

So, um, and I think a lot of people watching this show, not understanding that, you know, we're not going to talk about this, but like the show has a sort of infamous ending that not a lot of people vibe with.

But if you go back to this episode and you realize that like you really have to invest in this idea of faith, belief, divine intervention, all these other things, then the ending sort sort of definitely, you know, they were like, we were directing our arrow towards that this whole time.

And so I'm really glad you picked it, Mal.

I had a really good time.

I, the best time watching the miniseries, then 33, then the episode before, because I, unlike Mallory, I'm not as committed to watching the entire season this weekend, but I was like, just exceptional guest work from Mal.

Yeah, that's when I come on, she watches a whole season.

I know, I was like, I was like, oh, I watched seven hours.

I'm so committed.

And Mallory's like, I watched 15 hours.

I was like, wow, I'm a fucking jump, man.

But I just like, the workday ended on Friday.

I booted up the miniseries.

And I was like, there's just absolutely no question that I'm going to watch every episode through the finale.

And then we'll continue and watch the whole series from here.

So, like, in some ways, I think that's just, you know, making the case that maybe the pick again should have been the miniseries.

And none of us are actually arguing against that.

And this is more of the case for Koble's Last Gleaming, I think, than against the mini-series.

It was just the joy of my life to spend Friday night and Saturday rewatching the miniseries in season one.

And I can't wait to re-watch the whole show.

And I think like another thing that Kobel's Last Gleaming encapsulates and presents to people really well is like

a lot of the tension and a lot of the infighting is happening between the people.

Like it's not just humans versus Cylons.

It's never that simple.

And some of the most delicious scenes in these two episodes are people.

disappointing each other, withholding from each other.

They have a shared aim, the preservation and restoration of humanity.

They don't always see the path to that aim the same way.

And this is, I think, a good episode.

And that's so central to the series, like obviously across the seasons.

So I think that's very present here.

Again, I don't want to say like, you should just watch the mini series, but that was like one of my earliest notes for the miniseries is like how well it sets up immediately.

Yeah.

Conflict between Adama and Apollo or, you know, Starbuck and Ty or, you know, like just out the jump.

Here are all the people who don't get along, who have pre-existing beef that we are laying out for you really really quickly there's also the way in which so many people have a secret there are secrets uh everywhere and that you know so there's like oh i don't know conflict inside of the human heart one might say uh

but it's it's very different from the discussion rob and i had last week about lost which is The premise being these are strangers and they're getting to know each other.

So we're getting to know them as they know each other.

And they do all have secrets.

And there is conflict, but it comes from bumping up against someone new.

These are people, you know, with the the exception of like Roslyn and Adama, who don't have a long history before it starts, but like these are people who have known each other.

Yes.

And that's a problem.

And now they're humanity's last hope.

And we have to like plow into the future through all of our history.

And that is just absolutely incredible television.

I think, especially when you take the miniseries as plot-wise, what is supposed to be the end of something, right?

Like the Galactica is being decommissioned, the crew, like people are retiring, people are shifting off.

Like this is supposed to be the end of the road.

And then on the last day of school, everyone is informed, oh, wait, you are now in school forever and ever.

Amen.

Until, like, basically fighting for your lives on a daily basis.

And to sort of take all of that baggage, supercharge it by the stakes, infuse the new characters.

And that explains a lot of how we get to where we get in Kobo's Last Gleaming.

In terms of it was never going to be enough to just have the future socio-political thriller in space.

Like,

we also need some prophecy.

We're also going to need these kind of extra elements that are going to charge the plot, that are going to give these characters even more reasons to bump up against each other, that are going to create

so much tension between the world of what is tangible and empirical and what is believable by faith.

Yeah.

And I think that this, like the two-part finale in terms of how it takes the already inherently complex nature of what like you guys are both outlining with, you take your history, it's fraught, because how could it not be?

Any history between two people is going to be definitionally.

and then you heighten it in such an extreme fashion and whether it is the fact that this was is your boss or your

friend

or the person who was engaged to your dead son or whatever the relationship might be and then you say okay the reason that that loyalty exists is complicated.

It can't, it can't move on the same straight course that the arrow can, Apollos or otherwise, the one pointing toward the finale, as Joe Lyn, like, uh, uh, explained.

So, like, I just think that this is such an incredible way to say, like, okay, we have a quest.

We had a quest initially.

It was

survive.

We have a quest again.

And the way that the quest continues to unfurl and the different layers of it, like COBOL and what it represents, and the way that it kind of encapsulates this idea of the past guiding the future.

Even though I think the appreciation of it is, of course, enhanced by watching the miniseries and then every episode of the first season, i think the first season of the show is like dynamite really really good the second season is the second season is my personal favorite it's one of my favorite seasons of television ever made but the first season is incredible all that said like i think to your point from earlier rob my hope is that if anyone actually followed the prompt of hooks and watched this they would want to go back to the beginning this is such a propulsive almost new pilot because it's like, okay, we've found this place that was here before.

And what do these visions mean?

And is this a place we can be?

and how long can we hide and like the reveals that we are cylons can have babies now

theoretically allegedly

it's all part of the plan the fact that like we know already that boomer is a cylon does not sap anything about boomer having to confront other versions of herself about sharon having that moment in the beast star or what happened like what passes on starbucks face okay i

i went against the old man I had to not only decide to do that, but I had to face the fact that he let me down.

This person I have put all of my stock into, the person who gave us hope that I learned was false.

And then I get there and I'm faced with the most damning question of all, which is like, do I even know who's in the bunk next to me?

Right?

Like,

it's just such an incredibly rich and interesting text.

I also just think it's so, we, um, we talked about this a bit when we were talking about Buffy season one over on House of R, but like, this idea of a show that never knows when it's going to be canceled, and that's what Battlestar Galactica was, constantly under threat of cancellation by sci-fi.

But unlike some, unlike what Buffy did, which is like, we'll give you a finale that feels like we did it.

We saved the world.

End of sentence, right?

Don't worry about it.

Ron Warren, his writers, their attitude was, fuck them.

I dare them to cancel us.

The fans will be so mad if they cancel us with a Dama bleeding out on a console.

Like, imagine that.

And so to Mallory's point, these mid-season and finale moments, these dramatic moments are just,

you know, to that Portlandia sketch's credit, you got to be like, next, next, next, next.

One more.

One more.

You scream.

I think also this is a sexy.

two-parter and it's a funny two-parter.

And Battlestark Elactra is very introspective, very heavy, very, it's not only philosophical, it's downright existential.

And so I don't think we can understate the import always of Gaius Baltar.

And like, that is, I should say, actually, that weirdly feels to me like the biggest, wait, you started here.

You're spoiled on something more so than even like, oh, okay, six is a Cylon, Boomer's a Cylon.

We learned the identity of four Cylons in the miniseries.

Only two of them are featured here.

Like, I think it's that, that weirdly feels kind of okay to me.

Gaius's career ascension.

What a lord.

political status is a little bit more.

Vice President Baltar.

Yeah.

What?

How did we get here?

Wrecking Ball, but it's just such an incredibly funny Gaius episode in a way that feels very entwined to these big picture like tent bowls that we're talking about.

You know, you can't compete with me, like born out of the insecurity and the jealousy and the way that connects to everything going on with Lee and Starbucks, Starbuck, another one of my favorite television characters of all time, you know, because I'm a screw-up Lee.

Try to keep that in mind.

I think a line in a moment like that perfectly encapsulates what Joe's talking about.

If you watch that, you're like, I don't just care about where these characters are going.

I need to understand how they are

there.

And I think weirdly this episode like

preserves a lot of that.

Yeah.

There's also the hookiness based in, built into the premise of this.

And again,

I appreciate the high-flown ideas of Battlestar Galactica.

And then I appreciate the sort of like really

like

street corner one another taste like

ideas of secret Cylons, right?

So, so in 2005, when we're just really getting into like message board podcast theorizing culture around shows, you know, like Lost was like a big early example of that.

Who's the secret Cylon or who are the secret Cylons or who are these other Cylons?

Um,

being something that pulls at your gut and just gets you to like debate and talk and

parse over clues and stuff like that And then also this is another just sort of like I no shame in the game Mal mentioned this in in a group chat we were in this like earlier but the fact that at any moment you could have a sex scene and you don't even need any build-up to it You just need Gaius Beltar to go to like his his Vancouver mind palace where one of the hottest women alive Trisha Helfer is there to like make out with him and have sex with him That's not even the sex you're talking about but that is available at any given time inside inside of an episode of Battle Star Galactica.

So they can always have sex.

They don't even need to lead up to it at all.

And they always have a mystery going right up till the end of like, what, who is that?

What's going on?

And that's just like, that's television crack in a way that I just like, I really admire because it is paired with these heady, high-flown ideas about philosophy, religion, politics, human nature, all these other things.

So it's just a perfect combination, high-low, you know?

You could put a writer's room, lock them up for a hundred years, and they wouldn't come up with something as horny and propulsive as this.

Like, it is just a perfect concoction.

I look forward to seeing what they come up with.

If it's better than this, I'm glad to eat my hat on it.

All right, so we have some questions we like to ask as we go through considering this two-parter, which again, we're also like, you should watch the mini-series too.

Five hours of television, low stakes to recommend, and then you should just watch the 3-3 and then the rest of the show.

Okay.

That's great.

Is the setting slash location for this episode typical or atypical of the larger season?

Does that matter?

I think with something like Battlestar, where we're like doing dog fights in space constantly, we're on, you know, the Battlestar, Battlestar, we're on the Colonial One, and we're on multiple planets.

That's fairly typical of any give up episode.

That's the show, right?

Yeah.

Are enough slash most of the main or important characters represented here?

Does that matter?

Mallory, what do you want to say about the storylines that we're following inside of this episode?

I'm going to just try so, so, so hard to not say anything that I shouldn't say.

Um, I think that this episode is these two episodes are actually

slightly more boomer, Sharon, forward than maybe, like, I like, I would not say that these, even though I love these episodes, are they're not my absolute like favorite Battlestar episodes.

Almost every single thing that I would pick for like my favorite Battlestar episode would be very, very, very oriented around Rosalind and Adama.

Yeah, that said, I think we still get some not only delicious Rosalind Adama action in these two episodes,

it is a wonderful, even though for us it's at the end of a 15 episode, including the miniseries experience.

If you're coming to it fresh, you're like, this dynamic to me is riveting, right?

So I think we get a couple scenes that between them, you know, the scene in the office,

in particular, where Rosalyn is presenting her

intention to Adama.

And then, of course, the like very active challenge and the fact that these two figures who did not expect to find themselves, either of them in this circumstance to begin with,

are in such active opposition inside of this episode.

Incredibly interesting and potent to watch.

I'll save my further thoughts on that till the end of the podcast.

When Rosin lays out her plan and Adam responds with, I didn't know you were that religious.

I honestly just love that moment because then she says, like, neither did I.

Something wrong with that.

And he says, no, it's just new.

And to me, that's like the show.

You know, the idea that it's just as much about discovering what you believe in as a given at a given moment as like whether all of humankind is going to survive and whether anything should.

The

so the

Roslyn Adama of it all and then Roslyn's appeal to Starbucks, Starbucks.

feeling it out with Adama and then obviously everything also with Lee and Adama.

I think it is not a spoiler to say that that group of characters and of course, then Gaius and Six are just like the most important characters of the show, and they're all prominently featured here.

And then Boomer, Sharon, is certainly also main core cast.

And I think it's like

given a number of fascinating and really riveting showcases in this episode, the scene with Chief

gut-wrenching, the scene with Adama moving, the scene with Gaius.

That's my, that's

to me the standout of the two-parter.

Put it into the Hall of Fame for like why the Gaius in particular is an all-time character i think trisha trisha and james and grace all in that scene are just like inc

incredible just really incredible and like you get

um

you get

incredible human drama you get this like reaction from six of like i actually didn't even know you were capable of that you get this reaction from both of them after that as as you know if you haven't re-watched this episode gaius like gaius knows that Boomer is a Cylon.

Yes.

She's basically saying, like, I don't know what's wrong.

She doesn't know she's a Cylon.

She's like, I don't know what's wrong with me.

I don't know what's going on.

And thinking basically of killing myself.

And he's like, you should.

Yeah.

But in much more nuanced, seductive language than that.

And so he is like.

More plausible, deniable language than that.

And it's a very

can be a curse as well as a blessing.

This is one of the most insidious things we've ever witnessed.

So

serpenty, seductive, like biblical moment.

And then you've got this like angelic figure just watching, but also like complicit.

It's

a fascinating dynamic that you can't explain to people outside of you.

You're like, here's this woman.

She's in his head, but also not.

Maybe who's to say?

And this is a woman who is asylum, but she doesn't know that.

You know, like to try to explain all the, all the context of what's going on here is like downright impossible.

And you don't even actually need that context because the human drama that's present inside of that scene, inside of this complicated premise is so potent.

I just was Jaw on the floor watching it.

So good.

My only concern with picking these episodes is like, are we

boiling the frog too fast?

Like there's a degree of this show where it's like the mini-series kind of pulls you into the very tangible version of the show.

And then we ease into their more religious aspects over time.

You know, not having the background about imaginary slash maybe not imaginary six in Gaius's head.

That's a, that's a hard thing to just like throw an audience into.

And yet you're right, Joe.

Like you, you put it together pretty quickly.

Okay, this person is actually not in this room.

This conversation is taking place along these lines.

And what makes Battlestar Galactica, Battlestar Galactica is Gaius and Sharon have that serpentine conversation.

He leaves the room and she pulls the trigger.

And I can't tell you how many other shows she doesn't.

She reconsiders.

She goes through some other crisis.

Someone else stops her.

But this is a show for all the hand-wringing you and I have been doing on Task Joe about like whether this child will live or die, that 10 minutes into the mini-series, a Cylon breaks a baby's neck.

Yeah.

Horrifying.

And you can get away with that when you're about to nuke the whole planet because everything's about to be dead anyway.

But still, they do not shy away from any of the very real consequences of any of these characters' actions.

And the reason that every line, that every dynamic, that everything you laid out, Mal, in terms of, you know, Adam and Roslyn and their kind of proxy war among themselves and kind of how Sharon factors in, how Starbuck factors in.

It's like all that human drama drama matters because these people are in actual peril all the time.

Yeah.

And I think the fact that, like, okay, we see Sharon

enter the base star, this mission, drop the nuke, right?

And confront all of these other versions, naked, I might add.

I wonder why Rob was okay with doing these episodes of herself.

And

the fact that we, if this is your first exposure to the show, understand that there are copies, there are models, there are a number of different versions does not in any way diminish, I think, the anguish of watching the Hilo Sharon scenes where she's like, I get cold, Hilo.

Like, I get sad.

I feel things.

And like, our perspective inherently that we bring to a story like this is the humans are good, the machines are bad.

And I think the way that this show consistently challenges that without pulling us out of it completely is very, very interesting.

And this is certainly a complex time to be engaging with those ideas.

But I think it's just more a more deft examination of that, right?

And the fact that, like,

something like Rosalind presenting her views on prophecy and, like, basically saying, not basically literally saying to Starbucks, like, can I tell you about my role in this?

Like, I'm the one who's going to lead us there.

There are so many versions of that where that is.

bizarre, off-putting, alienating, something.

And with Roslyn, it's like, I love the way that she says,

you know,

people keep telling me it's crazy.

Like, that doesn't mean it's not true, you know, and that she's leaning into the fact that this is a journey of discovery for her as well.

I love that concept.

Somehow I knew Mal was going to bring that up in the like, it's all in my head.

That doesn't mean it's not true kind of sense.

It's just cat mess.

It really is.

It really is.

Yeah, and I think

what's important about all these characters is that, you know, inside of that moment, Rosalind is doing what she believes, which is she believes they need this artifact, blah, blah, blah.

But is she also, in her calculation, saying to herself, I need to tell Starbuck, who is intensely loyal,

that

her hero, her father figure, lied to her in order to get her to do what I need her to do?

Yes.

And that is someone, you know, in just the episode previous, you know, she is, she is given a stern talking to by her colleague who she is quote unquote portrayed about like, I never thought you could be in the snake pit with all the other politicians, but guess what?

You fit right in.

It's like Roslyn is

someone who we meet having to make incredibly difficult, gut-wrenching, many lives on the lines decisions.

And over the course of this season, we're watching the series, just watching what that does to a person and who and who we meet here at the end of the season and who we meet here at the end of the season is even more interesting than the very interesting person that we met in the mini-series.

And Mary McDonnell and Edward James Olmos as like the two like

Michael Hogan, who plays Ty,

were like the three like really experienced actors that they brought onto this production.

Then you cast a bunch of other people who have like, yeah, been doing stuff, but like Trisha Helfra hadn't done like anything.

Katie Sackoff had done like a few, you know, like you bring these other people who are much greener in.

And so you have this natural dynamic of leader and like subordinate and all these other things.

It's just like, it's a really fascinating construction.

I mean, that's where you get kind of a West Wing effect too.

I mean, slightly different cast in terms of experience, but it's like you put Martin Sheen at the center of a show like that and everything kind of just falls into place and context.

Edward James almost like could not be better in this show and Mary McDonnell could not be better in this show.

And their chemistry together and the way those characters are written to bounce off of each other.

is just scintillating TV.

And it like, again, the fact that every other dynamic, especially within these two episodes, kind of folds into theirs, maybe with the exception of the six Gaius, some of the Six Gaius stuff, or some of the Gaius and his sense of self-preservation stuff, which is really just an ongoing plotline that the show is perpetually concerned with.

Like, that is the magic of what makes Battlestar work structurally.

But you need that fun of Six and Gaius.

And, like,

the fact that, like,

that was a feature, not a bug.

Yeah.

Mary McDonald, Mary McDonald, or just Laura Roslyn, is someone that you could just, like, pluck out of the show and put her in the West Wing, and she just fits there in that show, which is stunning.

You know,

Gaius and six are of this show.

Yeah.

Undeniably.

And that's not a knock on Rosalind who I love, but I just, for me,

the show is Gaius and Six.

Yeah.

And like my confusion around, my persistent confusion around what's real and what's not.

But what's always sexy, what's always fun, was always smart, was always cunning.

I love a villain.

And, but then also a villain who I'm like, I'm not even sure I would call you a villain.

Actually, at the end of the day, I'm actually not confident about that.

And so,

you know, I, anytime that Mallory brings up Rosalind and Adama and how much she loves their dynamic and how important they are to her, I love hearing you talk about that.

And I also love that for me, the show is something a little different, which is this other thing.

And you need all those things to make the show, you know?

Yeah, absolutely.

I think like

I really love the way you put put it, that Gaius and Six feel like of this world in a way that they don't make sense necessarily in any other universe.

I think that this is one of the more successful ensemble casts in TV history.

And like the fact that there are so many different pairings that people could form that level of attachment to and devotion to.

Like I can't think about my life as a TV.

TV viewer without thinking about Adama and Rosalind.

Like I can't.

But

the consistently most entertaining part of watching the show for me is Gaius, for sure.

You know, Gaius and Six.

So, like, I love that it's all there and I think it has to all be there.

Like, that's the, um, that's the, just of a piece with all the stuff we're talking about today, about it's like this level of variance and specificity that makes it feel so fully realized.

Like, it's not just that we're watching people talk about what we need inside of a society.

You believe that this is a society that it was, that they want it to be again, because of how fully realized and rich it is, you know?

I have an important question for you, Mallory.

In terms of like all the conversations that they have about like we need to protect our democracy, our like blah, blah, blah, all of our way of life, blah, blah, blah.

Would you say that survival is insufficient inside of something like this?

Or

I would indeed.

I would say

that's crazy.

Yes.

I would not say survive and endure.

I would say survival is insufficient for sure.

Rob, do you have a relationship that feels like the most core to this show that you're most invested in?

I am also an Adama and Roslyn guy, but like, again, it's extremely hard to pick and choose favorites.

It's so difficult, especially within the context of the Lee Adama stuff is also so rich, and the Lee Starbucks stuff is so rich.

It's great.

The way that those three characters end up triangulating, of course, because Starbuck has her own complicated relationship with Adama and their own kind of secret language in a lot of ways.

Starbucks Adama is like second on my list, honestly.

They speak in a code that I just find endlessly fascinating.

Nothing but the rain.

The nothing nothing but the rain scene.

Again, it's just like they're just coming out of the gate with this stuff.

Yeah, that's right at the start.

It's like right at the start, which is stunning.

And to build and build and build to the point that we get to Kobo's Last Gleaming, where you have all of that.

the earned history we talked about, the world building that was there from the jump, that dialogue, those dynamics.

And now we're just getting into a richness of ideas where we are iterating on, iterating on, iterating, on iterating.

And I think it is a great example of like how far the show can go while at the same time.

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If we were to play the Honorary Bill Simmons who won the episode game, the give out a trophy, just one trophy, Mallory, no cheating, just one trophy.

Yeah.

Who wins this this episode?

I think it has to be Gaius.

Okay.

Why?

Right.

As much as I'm always inclined to want to pick Adam or Rosalind, I think, yeah, it's got to be Gaius or Sharon to me.

I think they just carry the most weight.

And for Gaius, this is always the case.

I think it's the number of different flavors that he gives us.

The fact that, like, we already talked about that scene that we all adore with Gaius and Sharon and Six.

And I think, like, something that is as emotionally rich and dark as that paired with his,

frankly, like insecure male egomania at the card table, paired with his complete breakdown when they crash, paired with,

as is so often the case, I mean, we have Roslyn and Elosha like outright discussing prophecy, but Gaius is the one taking us into that, the ruins of the temple for the first time.

He touches every

strand of the tapestry across these two episodes.

And it's just the performance is, it's it's so entertaining.

Like, I just think if you're trying to compel someone to watch the show, my hope is that they would come to consider Adama one of the most important figures in their life.

If they watch these two episodes, I think they would say, Why have I not heard everybody around me every minute of every day talking about Gaius Baltar?

Great, great pick, Ramahoni.

Uh, I am gonna cheat.

I'm sorry, it is

okay, it's the Sharons.

I think it's all the Sharon's.

Okay, that's that's I think that's that's that's a fair cheat.

Yeah, I mean,

the Sharon, who wants to continue to be Boomer manages to survive her own suicide and then pull off what is basically a suicide mission to nuke a Cylon base ship.

That's a win as far as I'm concerned.

But the Cylon sleeping within her also wins because it awakens at the worst possible time to shoot Adama in the gut or the chest several times.

And the other Sharon also wins because she convinces Hilo to keep her alive.

And somehow, I think this is the toughest sell in the entire episode of all the the far-flung plans that people are trying to convince each other of.

To convince a human being that you as a robot are pregnant is quite a feat.

So I think it has to be the Sharons.

Katie Sakoff is my winner of this episode.

Despite my guy as six-love and all that sort of stuff like that is the subtlety of the Adama conversation where she's fishing for information

and

Starbuck is not known for her subtlety, but like that, that moment, the moment where she gives a punch, takes a punch,

you know, with Lee, the moment where

she fights a Cylon and wins.

She fights Six and wins and then has that like...

gautural scream

about finding out about not only finding out about Sharon, but also like this idea that Hilo is like, no, you can't, you know, like all this sort of stuff like that.

Like,

I think that just gives us the full spectrum of what Katie can do and what Katie is so

just from the moment we meet her and there's like Cheshire grin on her face and just this cocksure bullshit.

I just love her.

Um, I think she's amazing, and I just love her in this, these two episodes, you know.

That's fascinating, Lee.

You should write a paper quietly in the moment of the season, maybe in a series, maybe, just perhaps

perhaps absolutely incredible stuff.

Um, this is, I think we've we've just proved made the case for why these are great episodes and why the show is amazing.

It's like you're getting that exposure to how many of these characters are going to work their way into your heart and like touch your life, honestly.

Not to be too corny about it.

It's just, it is a great showcase for that, as is the miniseries, which everybody should watch.

This is not a case against the miniseries.

I'm very anxious about people thinking I don't want them to watch the miniseries.

On the Sharon front,

I

think

that Sharon saying to Chief,

like, I wake up in the morning and I wonder who I am.

I wake up and I wonder if I'm going to hurt someone is just so, it's so gentle and quiet, but it's beautiful and it's anguish inducing and it tells us what we need to know.

And then he's like, you need help.

And she's like, not from you.

You made that clear.

You know, and it's fucking Chief.

Again, the choices people make.

I mean,

there's also the added layer.

And, you know, we talked about this with a bunch of different shows, but the added juice of re-watching these episodes, knowing who is a Cylon, and doesn't even know that they're a Cylon.

It's spicy.

It's an incredible rewatch.

Really fun.

And

yeah.

Well, all of that said, one thing that I think is important to know about the Battlestar Galactic experience, if you're new to this world or considering watching it,

there will be plot holes now and again.

There will be some things that no one can explain, inconsistencies in character.

Do all of the who is a Cylon revelations completely add up?

I don't know, man.

I also don't entirely care.

And I think, I think this is the kind of show that this is easing you into the idea that, like, you're just gonna have to be along for the ride on this stuff.

You're just gonna have to be following the prophecy and buying in on some of this on faith.

And the reason you buy in is because the character stuff works.

And if that's working for you, I think you're gonna be able to go along with a lot.

Something that we've been doing on these hooked episodes is like the most blank thing about the episode in terms of the year that it came out.

This is harder to do in a show that is set in a different time and place,

as is Battlestar Galactica.

But is there a 2005 thing about this episode that stood out to you?

Whether it's like characterization, hair, costume, concept, anything like that?

I have a hard time with this one.

I guess it just took me back in a way I enjoyed to the like, actually the best show on TV is on sci-fi.

Yeah.

Crazy times.

I really like, I actually, I like Joe.

I did not watch it live and it was on Adam did.

And so at the end, I was like, what is this show?

But, you know, wasn't getting spoiled because it was so out of context for me.

And then the second it ended, we watched it all and then immediately watched it all again.

And then I started evangelizing for it and got like everybody I know to watch it.

But yeah, I guess that's my pick.

And also, especially hearing your nugget that you shared, Joe, about how they were like, we can't afford to.

to go the toaster route.

It's why Grace Park is naked in this episode, too, actually.

Because it made the visual effects easier.

They didn't have to pay for costuming.

it was just like easier to digitally overlay a bunch of naked shareds versus a bunch of costume shared sure yeah maybe yes of course but also i love i love the the carefully placed shadow of the battle sorry galactica nudity yeah you can see boobs but not nipples so like that's that's helpful um it's key i do think that the effects and i say this with real love for this television show um do not hold up like super great that being said i would agree but also the way that they shot it was just like this documentary sort of style yes helps especially with like the space dog fight stuff you know what i mean the snap zooming and kind of all of that stuff really the space stuff like holds up better i think like when a like a silence

walks into the room i'm like this was a couple decades ago and this is why this is why it's great that they're they look like humans um

i will i will give it to you and this is something that i love to think about this is something um our our friend of the pod i will say alan seppenwall uh who is one of the best in the entire business, brought this up when he was on our Lost podcast years ago, which is the commercial break.

When you're watching a show

that went to commercial and the act out of a scene and the dramatic, like sort of up act out of a scene, which they don't even really do for shows that have commercials anymore because they know they're going to go to streaming without commercials, so they don't put those act outs in there.

But watching something like Lost or something like this that once aired

to commercial, it's really like there's this just like this fun anticipatory rhythm of it that is very nostalgic for me that i really totally yeah i had another lost related pick for the most 2005 thing which is watching these two shows in tandem along with some other kind of mid-2000 stuff right now um everyone was going through crises of faith it seems there's just like a lot of like man of science man of faith i i don't i don't think we've ever stopped but i think it was like like such a fundamental point of like front page concern in a way that to be honest now like watching Battlestar now.

Yes, the crisis of faith stuff hits, but my primary concern from a present societal perspective is like people are already giving up everything to AI and AI doesn't even look like Trisha Helfer in a tight red dress yet.

Like, how fucked are we?

Yeah, totally.

Uh, but yeah, like just how much,

like, so much, whether it's big cable in this case or big major network media is primarily concerned with issues of faith in terms of narrative.

And I think, I think that's scaled back some in more recent creations, but like it's all over the place with these two shows.

I will say that, you know, like thinking about the miniseries coming out in 2003, which is only like two years after 9-11 and the way in which the shadow of 9-11 and the Iraqi war, at least in American media, like really cast a long shadow.

Rob, I just got really emotional hearing you say man of science, man of faith.

Like, I'm so happy that you're watching Lost.

It really, really.

Thank you for the gateway.

Because you're a man of science, Rob.

You're a man of faith.

I do consider myself more a man of science, but increasingly, you know, you just got to follow your era of Apollo at some point.

You just got to go.

I think we've already talked about how this episode sets up the rest of the series.

Anything else you want to say about Cobalt's Last Gleaming specifically before we hit on some beats of the miniseries, which we've also talked about a bit, but we might want to say some more.

Anything else, Mallory, you want to say?

No.

I don't think so.

Rob.

I do have one, you know, Joe, sometimes we like to isolate particular scenes that that are noteworthy for us.

In particular, the scene where Gaius is having a conversation with Rosalind about how he needs to take a break as VP and with Six about how they need to go on a break and does it simultaneously.

Something that happens, a version of which happens basically every episode of Battlestar Galactica.

Fucking phenomenal.

And the double writing on this show around Gaius and Six and James Callis's like pausing delivery where he then has to kind of reroute his thoughts so that it can apply to the other situation.

Just phenomenal stuff.

That's one of the better scenes.

That's one of the better scenes for the conversational gymnastics because a lot of it obviously is about like

the way he's like holding a hand or like where he's looking or the fact that somebody catches him talking to himself and he has to say, I'm talking to myself or doing other things with himself.

Famously

jack it off in the lab because he thinks he's fucking someone against the edge of the table.

You know, it can take many shapes and forms inside of this wonderful television program.

But the, yeah, the conversational gymnastics of him having to turn a mid-sentence, something that can fly all around, it's high comedy art.

Great one.

I mean, and even that, like, it is high comedy.

It is art.

And then you drill down and it is what the show is, which is taking these like wild ideas and forcing them to confront very practical realities.

It's like, we have these prophecies, we have these religious beliefs, we have these things we can't explain.

And yet, you have to call Commander Adam into the room and say, you know what, I think we just need to take our our one Cylon Raider and go on a mission that makes absolutely no sense to you.

And the intersection of those things is what makes the show really, really crackle.

All right.

So in terms of like this section where we talk about the pilot and whether or not like we think it works,

we're expanding the prompt and saying you can talk about either the miniseries, which we've already talked about a little bit, or 33, which is season one, episode one, which to Mallory's point, people who are confused about the miniseries, plenty of people start with season one, episode one, not knowing that the miniseries is really like not really optional viewing.

It really helps to have watched the miniseries.

This is what I will say about 33 and 33 and water were a double premiere.

So I guess you could even do water if you wanted to.

Mallory's the one who has watched all the episodes, but the way that 33

And this feeds into what we were saying about Edward James Almost being a leader on set.

I was listening to Katie Sackoff talk about how when they were doing 33, Edward James Salmon is like, okay, guys, none of us are going to sleep.

We're not going to sleep.

We're just going to stay awake and we're going to do this and we're going to lose our minds, but it's going to be great for our art.

And Katie's like, you do that.

I'm not doing that.

I mean, canonically, they have been awake for five straight days or something at this point.

It's like

my guy.

Everyone looks like shit.

I love that, like,

your show got picked up after a lot of back and forth on sci-fi.

And your first episode, you have to look as much like shit as you possibly can, unless you're Grace Park.

Um, and uh,

and and then the fact that the premise of this episode is,

what are your limits as a human, right?

Like, what

you know, in terms of the idea, the concept of the one where

every 33 minutes Cylon shows show up is like a really great little like hour of television premise, but also like the very nature of

the frailty of our team

is that they they need sleep, man.

They need rest or a lot of stims, you know, whatever it takes.

That almost goes fine.

Yes.

How many stims are you on today?

Yeah, yeah.

No comment.

Also, once again, this is this is my same as my white lotus issue.

The way that she chews that stim, I'm like, I don't believe that that tastes good.

I don't believe it.

Terrible.

Mallory, what do you want to say?

Anything you want to say about the miniseries or 33 that we haven't highlighted already?

I think the mini-series is absolutely dynamite.

I think 33 is is great.

I think everybody should watch both of them.

I do think people should start with the miniseries genuinely.

I think part of the exercise of hooked is, as you guys have said, not to always pick the actual first episode and to engage with the exercise in that way and make it the extreme.

Why not start at the end?

I think is a fun prompt.

For this pod, I think that the mini-series, we already, we talked about this actually pretty recently together, Joe, because I picked this as one of my entries for best speeches of the century so far.

The Adama speech in the

mini-series, you cannot play God, then wash your hands of the things that you've created sooner or later.

The day comes when you can't hide from the things you've done anymore, feels relevant now in our lives.

Certainly,

you know, we never answered the question, why?

Why are we as the people worth saving?

I think it's just incredible.

And I hope that people watch it.

I think that certainly two 90-minute episodes plus the question of whether they need to is

a barrier to entry.

33, I think, is a great episode of TV.

And I I think it is very representative of the

conceptually and like structurally and stylistically bold choices that Battlestar can often make.

I think, like, particularly the first three quarters of season one is defined by a lot of episodes like that.

They never go away.

It's just that the seasons get longer.

So it feels like a larger percentage of season one is, I think, like oriented around.

That's why Kobal stands out to me as like when the show kind of moves into a different state of being.

it's a little trekier i would say yes yeah you could see it just as an episode as a track episode yeah

and so like while i think it is a really great

very clever incredibly taut and tense episode and i think also still there are like very um poignant things that happen that we have to examine and the characters have to examine what happens with the Olympic Carrier, for example.

That choice is a huge one.

But it's just less rooted in the relationships between the characters and the dynamics between the characters than I think, like the true, true, true Hall of Fame Battlestar episodes are.

And also, like, in terms of the prompt for hooked,

I think part of the point of 33 and part of what makes it a great episode of TV is like people are not behaving like themselves, but I don't think that makes it the best starting point to show people what Battlestar is going to be.

It's so funny though.

I was talking to a friend of mine who loves Battlestar Galactica, but like hasn't watched it in a while, but he loves it.

And I was like, oh, yeah, we're going to do a hooked episode.

And he's like, oh, are you doing the one where they have to jump every 33 minutes?

And I was like, no.

I was like, but that's a premise that people just remember.

Oh, the one where, you know, like, well,

yeah, I think it's a showcase episode in that respect.

Weirdly, the other one that I considered for season one, but like quickly eliminated because it comes, it's another two-parter, not formally in its labeling, but it comes after an episode that literally ends with to be continued.

So I just don't think it would be a good faith, like one to start.

But the fifth episode of season one,

depending on where you watch and buy season one of Battlestar, the episode numbers will be different based on whether they have coded the mini-series into the episode count.

This is

debacle.

But you can't go home again.

I don't think, based on the to-be-continued and the fact that, like,

Starbucks says this entire episode, raw dog in the inside of a Cylon Raider, I don't think it actually would be the wise choice to say to someone, don't you want to watch

70 plus hours of this?

However, I think it is

at least it warrants mention because it is a beautiful, beautiful episode for understanding the Adama Starbuck and Adama Apollo relationships.

Like, if it were you, we'd never leave.

No matter how many times I watch that episode, it will break me and I will weep like a baby when Adama says that to Lee and when Adama visits Kara in her hospital bed at the end.

Like the, you understand so clearly how much these people mean to each other in an episode like that, which I think is

valuable to show people.

I think there's a lot of entry points, to be honest with you, in season one.

I think this is a show where you could throw on a lot of different installments and hook somebody.

The key is just like getting them, getting it in front of them if they are not a sci-fi person.

Or as we talked about, just like even the word mini-series and when they see the runtime, can be a little daunting for some people.

And so if you just put on the mini series in the background and didn't tell anyone anyone what it was, it's incredibly grabby, right?

This idea of like seeing the thermonuclear annihilation of the planet.

And the only people who survive are basically on the people who are on ships that are like too old to take the computer virus, effectively.

Yeah, yep.

An incredibly evocative idea.

And Mal, you nailed it up front of like the confrontation of a like staunch military commander in those circumstances who's doing everything he can possibly think of to keep people alive versus a political leader leader who understands that the war is already over is such like a juicy piece of TV writing.

And what really does it, honestly, in terms of what I think makes the miniseries and ultimately what makes Battlestar what it is, the show looks great.

Like the effects are a little janky, but the way it's shot

is dynamic, is interesting, and I think really exemplified in the stuff with Gaius and Six, too, where you just have these constant sort of like swivels around the room in terms of the camera, where it will eventually find six, you know, perched against a counter or sitting in a chair or across the room.

And it's like, you again, you think you're watching one scene and then six is in it, and it transforms the meaning of everything you're watching.

And so it turns what on a lot of other TV shows, just like normal workaday stuff of like, let's just get our coverage.

Here's the close-up.

Here's the medium shot, like very normal stuff to keep the television chains moving into now.

This is like an active part of the telling of the story in a much more fascinating way.

Yeah, Trisha Helfer is freaking amazing.

What Rob and I promised each other when we started this miniseries is that we weren't going to do like, this is what it takes to make a good pilot.

Like, that's not the premise of this.

That being said, this is what it takes to make a good pilot?

The opening of the miniseries, I was thinking, you know, we were, we talked about this a lot.

We were talking about Joan Harris giving a tour of the office in Mad Men and that sort of idea of an entry to a world that you haven't been in before.

And so, you know, we are watching a character, who happens to be a Cylon, give a tour of the Battlestar and give us the history of it.

And as we're going through, you know,

Starbucks runs into frame.

Adam is practicing his speech.

Ty, Chief, Gaita, like all like coming to, I know, Mr.

Gata.

Shout out Mr.

Gata, my favorite connection to Star Trek.

A nod to Mr.

Data.

I love that.

The

like

it's so elegant the way that it is done at the beginning of the miniseries, the way the camera's flowing, the way these very natural, lived-in relationships are being shown to us.

We get that call and response with Starbuck and Adama.

We get the information about what the battle star is.

We get all this sort of stuff.

And then our introduction to Rosalind, which is like via this diagnosis, she gets like there are all these, like, it's, it's a very slick,

very, very slick introduction to a world where expository language is wrapped up inside of like premise.

And again, that is like in theory, what the Joan, Joan Harris, and like, we like the Mad Men pilot.

We're like knock knocking it forever, but there's a bad version of that.

And this is, I think, an even better version

than what we get inside of Mad Men, which I think Mad Men is often a better show than Battlestar Galactica.

But like in this instance, I I think Battlestar Galactica leaps over what Batman accomplishes in that setup.

You know what I mean?

I think the highs that you hit in the miniseries emotionally are just

unprecedented, maybe strong, but incredibly unusual.

Like, right, that you're trying to introduce all these characters.

You're trying to build this world out.

You're trying to get people used to what it means to be on the Galactica, for example.

And yet, by the end of it, you're getting emotional haymakers.

And some of that is because of the runtime.

Some of that is because of we're talking about basically the annihilation of a species or the near-annihilation of it.

But two things kind of come to mind on just like a visceral level.

There is something to having seen all the buildup of an Earth-equivalent planet like decimated, and then seeing

basically human beings get their first chance to strike back, right?

It's like the first time that the Galactica and or the Starfighters dispatch from the Galactica kind of encounter Cylon ships, the Cylon flip of the switch that deactivates all of the new tech and all of the new starfighters.

It's like, there's just something like skin-crawlingly devastating about that idea and like turning, you know, the military into fish in a barrel, basically, that is just like really hard to watch and really effective.

And I think this is something that they do so well in the miniseries and that really drives it home.

Putting a real human face and cost on all the losses, right?

It's sometimes it's as simple as like Rosalind meets this little girl and that little girl is among the people who get left behind.

That's some that's some real nasty work, honestly, for the right time.

Real nasty work.

Really nasty work.

But again, this is how you know what show you're watching.

And this is how you know.

She's sitting there stroking the yarn hair on her doll.

Painful.

And like, obviously, we talked about this with Kobol's gleaming, like when Adama says he's, you know, making this whole, oh, despite any personal misgivings you might have had, and he's wrong, but we love him.

So worked like kind of swept up the complexity.

The way that that is so present throughout the miniseries, like, what does it even mean to have a misgiving if the goal is so clear, move forward?

But then also, how could you not have a misgiving literally every step of the way?

And I think I love what you guys were both saying about physical space and also how we work our way around the space.

And then you think of something like, okay.

I think that

realizing they have to use the old vipers, wearing my viper shirt, you know, the Mark IIs,

and you take something that's literally like a gift shop of museum and you make it your staging ground for the war.

How many of the people who were on the Galactic Club prepping for the decommissioning thought they would ever see combat?

There's all of that.

But then there's something like, okay, you go into Adama's office, which is one of my favorite sets.

His, his, not just his office, his office, his cheapest.

His quarters.

His quarters.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And it's beautiful, it's rich, and like you think.

It's full of noodles.

It's full of noodles.

It's full of books.

And some of the most crucial things in life.

And like you think, okay,

this feels like a place somebody lives.

It's a place he's going to be able to then open up to other people and share something, whether it's a rowdy dinner with some reunited family members later in the season or passing a book to Rosalind.

But then you think, okay,

those are all, that's just it.

What if that wasn't just someone sharing a book with someone else, but those were all the books?

Right?

So like the way that like every space takes on this extra heft and depth because of what people have had ripped away from them.

And similarly, like when we're poured it into Gaius's mind and we're always back on these like beautiful, resplendent lakefront vistas and Vancouver looks great and the show as it always does.

And you think like, okay,

space, openness, the expanse of possibility.

And then you move into the tight confines of having to work inside of a small arms, you know, hatch or move down, down into the shared bathroom elsewhere in the season, but like.

Gaius and Gata sharing one of the most memorable conversations while Gator's just trying to take a shit.

Like, this is how you got it.

You got to make it work for you.

You're just all like, that's just the fleet.

There are only so many places to go.

So, like, the way in the miniseries that everything feels so limited.

And I love like when we establish the number, the headcount, which becomes obviously something we track throughout the series.

And it's like,

there could be a part of you that said that out loud and thought, okay,

we got some people we could protect.

And then you're like, that's a baseball stadium?

Like, that's pretty small.

It's not great.

It's not a lot of people.

It's rough.

I also say, inside of the luxury of a three-hour miniseries, which again, like every other show wishes they had three hours to establish their world, but like you've got essentially like standalone episodes inside.

Like the sequence where Adama and number two, Callan Keith Rennie's character, are, you know, we meet an arms dealer.

Adama like realizes he's a Cylon, but he's still pretending he's not a Cylon and they're trapped together in this tunnel.

That's an episode.

That's an episode of television.

You know what I mean?

And it's really juicy and really, really good.

And just like, and then they're

violent.

And it's like, but it's got great ideas inside of it and stuff like that.

And that's just like something you could see unfolding over the course of an entire hour.

And they just are, they're just like, that's just one side plot that we're just going to slot inside of all of this.

It's just incredible.

It's a plot of the miniseries.

Exactly.

Exactly.

Insane shit.

Leoben.

Always great.

Okay.

Big time spoiler section.

Yeah.

On the other side of this.

Brob's going to give his lost, his brief lost takes.

So you have to get, you have to fly through

the meteor field that is the major spoilers in Battlestar Galactica.

So skip ahead, skip ahead, skip ahead if you haven't watched it.

We'll throw that in the timestamps too.

If you want to skip the spoiler stuff, no, we won't.

Yeah, we won't.

We won't.

Well, we won't, but Donnie will, thankfully.

Yeah, so jump ahead to the lost stuff if that's what you're interested in.

If you have any interest in watching Battlestar Galactica,

please do not listen to this.

All right, that's your warning.

Spoiler section: dry off your hands if you've been washing the dishes and go hit pause on your device.

You've been warned.

Here we go.

Mallory Rubin, what have you been keeping a secret as you've been talking about this show?

I mean, obviously, like, we're going to keep this to five minutes.

There's like so much we could say.

I think the Cobalt's last gleaming is massive in terms of...

a number of different things.

Gaius's political career and the role that that ultimately plays in the show.

You know, when we talk about like structural innovation, the eventual time jump in lay down your burdens is like one of my favorite moments in television history.

We're building toward that here, obviously.

The opera house, the visions, the baby, you know, the fact that one of the, that, that, that bait, that she is pregnant, that that baby will be born, that that Sharon becomes...

Athena and that this baby is Hera, the shape of things to come.

Obviously, we're setting

a key path here on that front.

And obviously the relationship that Hilo maintains there as well.

This is a very key episode for

Hilo very much.

I do love Hilo.

I love Hilo.

Absolutely love.

A lot of key stuff on the COBOL and Earth, both original Earth and then eventual Earth fronts to hit here.

But mostly what I wanted to say is just that

Roslyn and Adama ending up together is like the

most important thing that has ever happened.

And like,

I just love thinking about like what it's like to be at the beginning of their relationship and then work your way toward that point.

I'm like getting, I'm actually actually starting to cry, unsurprisingly, but like when you, my favorite moment, I have a couple.

You guys have both heard me talk about them before.

Like, obviously, at the very end, he's sitting there alone and he's like, we built it.

I just can't handle it.

It's almost unbearable.

But when he waits for her, when he's the one who waits, season four, episode nine, The Hub, and she returns,

missed you,

me too.

The way that she whispers, I love you to him is like maybe my favorite moment in TV history.

Other than, like,

I won't spoil Game of Thrones for people, but the baby reveal in Winds of Winter.

Like, I just think it is absolutely stunning and gorgeous.

And, like,

it is like a life lived between these two characters.

And we get to such a rewarding, meaningful place with them.

And I love how, I love being reminded of how often it was really hard for them to find their way to that point.

So it's just like the best.

And, you you know, a trope that is just everyone's favorite in across many, many things.

And we've talked about it before is this idea of enemies to lovers and this idea, this idea of a extremely well-earned.

It's not a like, we fight, we fight, we kiss, we kiss, like whatever.

It's like a slow burn, grudging respect built over decision, decision, decision.

At the beginning,

the very beginning of all this, when Adama and Rosalind are at odds, it's like we're fighting over who is actually in charge here and stuff like that.

And he said to her, like, you were right about this.

Like, that is something that he says to her.

But then, like, he arrests her by the end of the season.

You know what I mean?

And it's just sort of like, they're not enemies in the classic sense of the word, but they are at odds.

And they are at odds until.

They are not.

And then even then they still are.

And so that's just so real and human.

And Mallory and I talk about this a lot, this idea of like

the depth that you can go into with such long storytelling.

You know what I mean?

You could just sort of like, and long-form storytelling that is a bit more episodic, like Battlestar Can Be, where you just have little, little moments, little plots, little things that are just sort of build, build, build, build, build.

This other thing, Ron Moore said

in the Battlestar Galactica cast episode that I was listening to, he was like, My writers wanted Rosalind and Adom to kiss at the end of season one.

And he's like, if we're going to do it, we have to wait.

He was like, we got to wait.

We can't do it here.

So I love it.

Season one would have been crazy.

Absolutely thought crazy.

I mean, when I'm watching season one, I'm like, I can't wait for these two to fuck.

Like, I, but I think this is the, this is a portrait of restraint and why that is often the wiser course.

Like, it is just so amazing to watch them work to that point.

And I like that how you put it, Joe.

Like, it's not enemies, but they're, because they're aligned in their goals, but often at odds.

And I think that feels like, um,

it's just so consistently interesting to watch.

And then the way that that reality between them, that so many other characters are swept up in that, you know, obviously in the episodes we talked about today,

Lee and

Starbuck and Ty.

I was also going to say,

I think it's so funny that they give us

a Lee and Starbuck sex scene, fake out sex scene, and then they never give that to us in the show is a crazy move to never give that.

Brutal stuff for guys, though, too.

Lee!

He deserves that.

You know what?

He deserves that and more.

He deserves that and more.

He could take it.

He can't.

Clearly.

He should still take it.

Joe, you were right to point out that the finale is obviously controversial and a lot of very intense feelings about it.

I have a hard time myself, given everything you just laid out, Mal, about Adama and Razin specifically.

When I think of the finale, I think of them two together.

I think of their scenes.

Yeah.

And how how can a show that ends like that not be satisfying?

Like, I get

a warmth of soul from thinking about it.

Hold on to those thoughts and feelings as you traverse Lost, I implore you.

Yeah, I imagine there's going to be some commonality there, but it's like, whatever questions I have about, like, is Starbuck an angel or whatever, just like melt away against like the sheer emotional firepower of what Battlestar is capable of.

All right.

Anything else we want to say in this big time spoiler section section venting of kept secrets moment?

I mean, just like in the long arc sense, I think Gaius is one of the great TV characters of all time.

And

he is an absolute dipshit, and I hate him most of the time, but I love watching him and I love him on this show.

My most delicious secret Cylon moment in this rewatch was like,

you know,

the show telegraphs the whole like, Sharon, you seem fine, like sort of stuff.

But also, Ty is kind of fine relative to other people around him.

And I, like, actually don't know when they knew who they were making a silent or not.

But, like, yeah, that was just.

Ellen is the one that I'm like, I don't think they knew about Ellen.

I think, I think that was a late addition.

It's funny because Ellen is the one who actually has the cover in season one of like, whoa,

I'll never tell about everyone else.

I, I think that my, my memory is that Ron Moore has said before about a couple of things, certainly the final five,

the time jump at the end of season two, et cetera.

Like

a thing that he has said about some of the bold choices of the show is like, I'm paraphrasing, I threw it out in the writer's room and everyone was scared, so I knew it was right.

Which is great, which is a great approach to television.

I don't need them to have known all along.

I just don't want to be like, well, they knew here.

I'm like, I don't think they knew here, but like, it's fun on a rewatch to find it completely.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I think the the Cobalt Earth stuff is pretty satisfying on a on a rewatch as well.

That's like in terms of just the quest of where we're meant to be and where we came from and where we end up.

That's, that's, there's a lot of good stuff there here.

I also think too, like, I mean, we could have talked about this with the main section too, but in terms of the, like, the disorientation that comes with watching any pilot and you're like, there's so many characters.

I'm trying to get used to these places having like.

potential multiples of characters or like trying to track like where is Aaron Dorel exactly like all that stuff is really fun within the disorientation of the show.

And I feel like Battlestar plays with the Cylon stuff, I mean, just so well.

They just string you along perfectly.

All right.

Well, that's Battlestar Galactica.

And we did it in under 90 minutes, leaving just a few minutes to spare for Rob Mahoney to give us a lost check-in.

So.

Rob, I was wondering.

I know you watched.

You got COVID.

I know you watched a lot of lost.

I did.

I ripped through the first season in like four days.

People.

Don't tell me what I can't do, Joe.

I never would.

You know about the numbers.

You know about the hatch.

You know a bunch of stuff.

So what I thought we might do is just like a season one check-in.

Like I know you've watched a little into season two, but let's just talk up through season one just in a couple of minutes.

Raw Mahoney.

And spoilers for season three, season one of Lost.

Raw Mahoney, how's it going?

It's going great.

Yeah.

I mean, to echo something that Mal was just saying about Battlestar, like this is one of the most fully realized and well-balanced ensembles I've ever seen in a a TV show.

I care about every single character, even the ones that I'm a little more annoyed by here and there.

I'm happy to report after our first pilot check-in, Jack still sucks.

As far as I can tell, will probably always suck.

Not my favorite character, but I am invested in his daddy issues.

I'm invested in his plot lines.

There's a lot going on there.

And, Joe, I have a question for you: you know, in terms of your personal origin story, your own personal lost flashback.

Are the lost flashback wigs the origin of Wig Watch?

Oh, certainly

Bang, Flashback Bang.

Those are the worst ones.

Those are the worst ones.

Maybe, maybe.

That's where it all came from.

Mal Urban, do you, as a lover of Lost, do you have any questions for Rob about his season one journey?

I just want to say that I think sometimes we err as people and a collective by treating ourselves to too much of a good thing.

This is the inverse of what you were saying at the top.

I'm a little worried about the three of us sharing lost Battlestar and Buffy together.

There's a lot happening.

How are we going to maintain

moving forward?

Lost is one of the other, when I say, like, this is one of my three favorite shows, lost is one of one of the other top three shows for me.

Like, I, I have a, I always kind of change my power ranking of my top 10, I'd say, but like, lost and battlestar are always just going to be right near the top, no matter what.

I mean, these are just two of the, I think, best and most important shows ever made, and certainly the two that mean the most to me.

Um, two of the ones that mean the most to me.

Should we just start talking about Friday Night Lights next?

I mean, I'm ready.

I'm ready.

I'm ready.

I'm ready.

I need to know how you're feeling about Sawyer.

That's my big question.

He's musty TV.

Honestly, he was from the pilot.

Yeah.

Rob called it early.

He's like, I mean,

Sawyer's like kind of barely in the pilot.

So I didn't expect you to really clock him.

And you're like, you know what?

That guy's Sawyer.

I'm like, he shot a polar bear in the pilot.

Like, look, there's a lot happening.

He is super racist early on.

It's okay.

He kind of, you know, it fades to the background a little bit.

Two Sawyer things.

One, I would say, my favorite episode of season one by far: Outlaws, aka Sawyer and Kate go hunting for the boar.

And by the boar, I mean the demons within.

Incredible episode of TV.

I actually think that's the best Sawyer ever looks.

Like, his hair is like perfectly feathered.

Not that that's the point, but it is the point.

How he maintains the hair is a great question as far as the logistics of Lost.

Also, the running bit of him calling Jin Chewy is one of my favorite parts of the show.

Just tremendous comedy.

Now that you've been through season one, do you see what I mean about the pilot

swerving a little hard on Jin and then having to really swerve out of that characterization?

I mean, the Jhin son stuff in general.

I would say overall season one of lost.

I am stuck in the Bermuda triangle of like constant mystery box intrigue, the numbers, the hatch.

I have some questions about like season one finale hatch looked really small.

Season two premiere hatch looked much bigger.

I don't know what happened in the offseason.

It seems like they did some renovating.

Make your own kind of music.

The mystery box intrigue,

the like really fun writing, just like really crackling dialogue on a really consistent basis.

And then just the emotional haymakers of all these people and the Jin Sun like slow motion heartbreak backstory stuff that has already been kind of like revised and rachemanned and like, you know, they're showing all these different angles from it that make it really interesting.

But

like, just when you think you're getting your bearings, you get that, or you get like the Said flashback episodes, or you get like, I mean,

Walt leaving Vincent with Shannon

just fucked me up so bad.

When

the raft goes out and the raft themes play, and the raft theme is just like one of the best things that Michael Giacchino has ever done, but the raft theme plays, and Vincent tries to swim out to the raft to get to Walt's

as a As a human being who is currently for moving-related reasons, I don't have my dog here.

Oh, you still don't have your dogs?

It's impending, incoming.

It's, you know, just

to try to settle in before the dog gets here.

Sure, sure, sure.

Very tough to have all this Vincent content and not be able to console my own dog, not to be able to curl up.

You know, I feel like I am adrift out on my own personal raft, clinging to a pontoon.

I think the

scene where

you and I have similar jack takes, but the scene where Jack and Sawyer are talking about Jack's dad.

Jack's dad.

Yep, yep, yep, yep, yep.

Something I cry about every single time I think about it, every single time I watch it.

It's just really good television.

Yeah, the lead up to the season one finale overall is just like, again, they've been doling out a lot of really powerful emotional moments, and yet there's just more and more in the chamber.

And it's impressive how much, and I think some of this is a virtue of having an ensemble this big and so many characters who can pay off here and there in totally different ways is you can just keep drawing from different places.

All of that said, if you had to trim the ensemble, if you had to say goodbye to somebody, I think Boone was the right person.

I'm just saying.

If you had to do it,

I think he's the right call.

They just didn't know what to do with him.

Poor boy.

They did not.

But you know, like who they did know what to do with, and Joe, you and I talked about this a little bit.

I have been consistently impressed and pleasantly surprised at what they do with Kate, a character who I think could just be so bland, cut and dry on other versions of this show.

And like they let her be real messy in ways that I really, really appreciate.

Molly Rubin, anything you want to say about John Locke?

I was just going to say not enough mentions of John Locke.

That's my one note.

I think that like Locke is a character I really love.

And I think just a very rich text, obviously.

The season one Locke episodes are.

Oh, I mean, Walk About was

really, really special.

Really stunning.

Well, I really

like Deus Ex Machina.

Yes.

As well.

I just, yeah.

Season one Locke is like

inspired.

I would say for me, it's Sawyer, it's John Locke, it's Rose.

Those are the three that I'm like, I'm locked in with these three anytime they're on screen.

And I mean, of course, I'm enjoying basically the presence of everybody else, give or take, you know, the occasional like Jack Mope around, but great show.

You know what?

Turns out loss is really good.

How quickly do you think you'll finish?

Well, part of the problem is now that this is a household concern.

When I was just a man with COVID, I was ripping through episodes.

Now I have to, like, I have to wait.

You know,

I have to wait to watch in company.

And look, the pace is going to be slowed a little bit, but maybe that's for the best.

Maybe it's going to parcel it out at a more like healthy interval.

We can get some check-ins for the people who want to hear.

Totally.

I will just say someone we haven't talked about yet, who is very important to me, is Hurley, Yes.

One of my favorite characters of all time.

And

may we all have Disc Man batteries that last longer than Hurley's did.

And he goes out listening, I believe, to Damian Rice.

I think that's the tune that takes him out.

And shout out to literally at the moment when I was wondering, is this thing ever going to run out of battery?

Is when it finally ran out of battery.

So, you know what?

They timed it perfectly.

They really did.

All right.

Well, that has been a season one check-in of Lost with Ramahoni.

That has been a Battle Star Check-in, season one Battlestar check-in with Mallory Rubin, embarrassment of riches.

Thank you so much, Mal, for coming on the show.

We see you.

Thank you guys.

Appreciate you.

Always.

We will be back.

I don't even want to say what the finale is yet because we haven't scheduled yet.

And I'm like, why did we say this to you both?

Everybody knows.

I think it's

very clear.

Well, we'll see.

We'll see.

It's very clear from the clues that you guys have dropped.

I think everybody knows.

We'll see.

So I just don't want to say it in case it's

It's Doogie Hauser.

Finally, our Diggie Hauser MD takes will

come up.

We'll be covering task, of course, on this feed.

Slow horses is right around the corner.

Very exciting.

Really exciting for that.

Excited for that.

Thank you to Donnie.

Beacham on this episode.

Donnie's the best.

And thank you to Malli Rubin for her guest star appearance.

Thank you, Mal.

Thank you to Rob Mahoney.

And we'll see you soon.

Bye-bye.

Yutine, adjective.

Used to describe an individual whose spirit is unyielding, unconstrained.

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They do not always show up on time, but when they arrive, you notice an individual confident in their contradictions.

They know the rules, but behave as if they they do not exist.

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One battle after another is coming to theater September 26th.

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