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Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, it's the Ramsey Show.

We help people build wealth, do work that they love, and create actual amazing relationships.

Dr.

John Deloney, Ramsey personality, PhD in counseling, host of the big hit on Ramsey Network, the Dr.

John Deloney Show, number one best-selling author.

He's my co-host today.

Open phones here at 888-825-5225.

Shawna is in Cedar Rapids, Iowa.

Hi, Shauna.

How are you?

Good.

How about yourself?

Better than I deserve.

What's up?

So I have my grandma.

She's 80 years old and 40 grand in debt or more.

Can't get approved to live anywhere and has dementia.

We're working on our own baby steps.

What should we do?

Can't get approved to live anywhere.

No, she's been scammed multiple times and it has ruined her credit to where no one will approve her.

Does she have clinically diagnosed dementia or is it just something you as a family toss around?

She has been clinically diagnosed with mild dementia.

So she shouldn't be able to get a check-in account.

I mean, somebody should have stepped in as a medical power of attorney at this point.

Is that right?

Yes.

And right now it's only me and my husband.

My mom is

not good for her or anybody.

So she's kind of out of the picture.

Okay.

So.

Well, I mean, you really have two options.

One is you all take care of her,

which you're saying you don't want to or can't do.

And the other option is a nursing home on a Medicaid program.

Medicaid is welfare.

It's designed for people that don't have money or bad credit.

And Medicaid pays for a nursing home for anyone in America.

We're just concerned about that because she doesn't want to be done driving.

She doesn't think she can see her sign that's located with Rim.

Well, she'll be done driving if she goes into that, but she should be done driving if she's got dementia and gets scammed.

Yes.

I'm not sure if she's going to.

She'll drive somewhere and not know where she is, honey.

Yeah, that's happened already.

You got a silver alert going.

I mean, come on.

So I don't really care whether she wants to drive.

It's no longer an option.

Okay.

And so then you've got to decide, are you guys willing to take care of her or able to take care of her?

And if you're either not willing or not able, then you know you're going to find a Medicaid nursing home in the area that's got some memory care

elements to it, and there's plenty of them.

And

they're not luxury high-rises, I can tell you that.

But

at least somebody be taking care of the lady because there's not anything she can't live on her own, right?

She has till just recently, she just sold her house,

and she's making making 40 grand-ish in profits.

And we're trying to get her into an assisted living facility.

Okay.

And it's not going well due to her only bringing home $3,000 a week.

I meant a month, sorry.

Yeah.

I mean, most of those cost that or more.

Yeah.

So

$36,000 a year would be a deal on an assisted living.

And

so what is your household income, hon?

We bring about $7,000 a month together.

Okay.

So is she getting Social Security?

Is that where that $3,000 is coming from?

It's Social Security and pension.

Okay.

Dave, correct me if I'm wrong, but when you file for Medicare, you have to show you don't have any more assets or something, right?

Yeah, but she doesn't.

I mean, she's got $40,000, but that's not going to keep her from getting qualified for this because she doesn't have the income to support the memory care.

But here's the thing: you keep,

you keep describing someone who doesn't have dementia.

She just sold her home.

She's been living on her own.

She drives.

Is she just contrary, and y'all are blaming dementia?

So, right now, they have been diagnosed her with mild dementia, so it's not as bad as it's gonna get yet but it is very slowly getting worse and worse

so one of the hallmarks that it's devastating for families is you have somebody that

at in some shape form or fashion in some level of consciousness understands that their mind is slipping out from underneath them and that comes with a an ingrained terror that all of us should understand

but what's hard is when you make decisions that you know are best for her and she'll say things like, I'm never going to see my kid again.

I'm not going to be able to eat.

These people are going to hurt me.

You don't understand.

And so you have to be willing to wade through that fear, which is understandable, right?

She's losing the foundation of her identity, who she is.

And nobody wants to say, hey, I can't drive anymore, right?

And so.

It's wading through that and doing the next right best thing for her, even if it's not going to be like a top-notch place, but this is what we can afford, or this is what Medicare will pay for, or this is what Medicare plus our Social Security, I don't know how all that works, but Medicaid, but this is how

we're going to be able to do this.

But it's going to come, it's going to feel so painful for you because

she's terrified.

And so you have to wade through that and then go do the next thing.

And it's going to feel like you're sending her off to prison.

It's going to feel like you're taking everything from her.

But you know, we all know, the best thing for her is to get around a group of people that are trained to help her in these last stages of her life.

In the early stages here,

it doesn't sound like she's incapacitated, really.

She's able to do a lot of things.

Is she hard to get along with, and that's why you don't want her there?

Or you feel like it's costing you money?

Or what is your all's reasoning?

You're not able to care for her or wanting to care for her?

Well,

we're still in baby step one and two, and we just think our marriage right now is we don't want it ruined with her intruding.

She's staying in my kids' playroom right now, which is the very right when you walk in the door.

So we just don't want her ruining our marriage by being there.

Does that make sense?

No, I don't know why she's ruining your marriage.

I don't understand.

Just her presence?

Almost intruding.

Just her mere presence.

I wouldn't say that.

It's just

we don't feel like we can be ourselves with her there.

Okay.

So I would rather.

How long have y'all been married?

Yeah.

We have been married for two years, been together for eight just last Saturday.

Okay.

I would rather y'all say.

have the courage to say we don't want to take care of her because what you're doing is you're blaming her

I'd rather you say, hey, you know what?

We don't want her here and we don't want to deal with it.

The other side of this is this could make your marriage immeasurably stronger.

But it's a choice y'all are making to say, hey, we don't want her here.

Fine, you can make whatever choices you want.

Y'all are grown adults.

But I don't want you blaming her and saying, well,

if she's here and she has this illness that's slowly going to take over her,

You know, we can't lay on the couch and do what we want to do.

Like, just let's just call it what it is.

We don't want her here, and that means y'all have to be a part of making the next decisions because you signed up to be her medical power of attorney.

Yeah, so she's going to be in a Medicaid nursing home.

That's her only other option.

I'm back to where I started.

Other than staying with you, that's her option.

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Isaac's in Wyoming.

Hey, Isaac, what's up?

Hi,

thank you for having me.

Honored to have you.

What's up?

How can we help?

Okay.

I am on stage two.

I've got 55 grand in debt, 35 in a truck loan, and 20 in student.

My wife's pregnant with our second kid.

Yay.

I know.

I'm really excited.

I work at coal mine.

I think I said that.

I unlimited overtime, and I'm trying to figure out how much overtime I should do.

Trying to get some money spilled away for the next kid,

trying to figure out how to balance like not working myself to death, but getting through this, getting through this debt, getting onto stage three.

Now, what's your household income, sir?

Last year I made $100 with overtime.

Okay.

But that's not a pace of overtime you can maintain through your life.

That's just a short sprint, right?

Yeah, it's been like hit it for.

What do you make if you don't do overtime?

If I don't do overtime, um, every two weeks, it's about 2,500 after tax.

So, about 60,000, okay.

60, 65,000.

So, you're picking up 30 grand in overtime, give or take.

Yeah, of course to yeah, and bonuses.

Okay,

all right.

Um,

well, you got a lot of different things pulling at you.

You got babies, and you got debt,

and um,

you know,

and so you, no, I don't want to have someone build a life that requires them to work 80 hours a week for the rest of their life.

That's a bad life.

That's not a life you want to build, okay?

So let's build a life that maybe we go through a sprint of a year

and at the end, or 18 months, and we work like a wild man.

And we pay off all our debts, or maybe we sell the truck,

get a cheap truck

and maybe we work like a sprint of less than a year and we're out of debt so that we can live on 65 or 70 000 or a little bit overtime maybe 80 000 but not a hundred and five hundred and ten because you're working crazy hours yeah

yep most of the time i see people get burned out when two things are in play one there's no light at the end of the tunnel

and like that's like dave said like there's just said that to a coal miner yeah oh i see what i did there.

There is no lights underground.

When there's no light at the end of the tunnel, and

when you don't see a purpose towards the toil.

If you can see an end to it, then you don't burn out.

It doesn't feel like a treadmill.

It feels like a race.

And if you're doing it for a reason.

If there's a race and I know where the finish line is,

you can bust it to the finish line.

But if it's like, I've got to do this for the rest of my life, oh, we can't do that.

That creates burnout.

Okay.

Awesome.

So let's determine where the finish line is and how we're going to get there.

Okay, we're going to keep the truck and the finish line is 18 months.

We're not going to keep the truck and the finish line is 9 months, whatever the number is.

And

then,

you know,

I don't know that you need to save up a bunch for a child.

Your health insurance is going to cover labor and delivery, isn't it?

Yeah, yeah.

Most of it.

So why do you need to save up a bunch for the kid?

I just had heard that on the on your show that like oh, yeah, you could push pause on this, but you're still working overtime because you still got to pile up 55 grand while the baby's on the way.

Yeah, yeah.

So

and we're paying the truck down as much as we can until we sell it.

That's already guaranteed.

It's undervalued, bought it wrong time, was dumb.

Oh, so you're upside down.

Okay.

All right.

Yeah, I mean, so yeah, I think you work like a maniac for nine months and pile up cash.

And when baby comes and comes home and your health insurance pays everything, then all of that cash you have piled up won't be needed for the baby.

It'll be piled on the debt and you'll clear your debts or get close.

Can I give you an unpopular thing to say, too?

Or can I say something unpopular?

It also helps when you're married that you know your spouse is in it with you.

And that might look like she commits while you're literally in the coal mines working extra time, she commits to minimizing spending to an obnoxious degree.

And you know, she's got her skin in the game too.

So she's a full-time home economist, squeezing every nickel.

Every nickel.

Or she takes two kids from the neighborhood and

does child care in the house.

Even if it's just a little bit of money, but you're looking for a partnership here.

Like we are both in this thing.

And man, you'll find that you get new wind in your sails when you got that.

Yeah,

if you can push through and you can see the end to it and you've got a good partnership, then you don't get burnt out.

Yeah, you know, both both you and I have been there.

Yeah, right.

I've done that.

You work like a maniac forever, 16 hours a day, but uh, you can't, you don't, it's not, it's not sustainable, right?

You have to have a way to get through that.

And so, in our case, we were growing a business, and so we had to get the business, have enough revenue coming in that we could hire people to do some of the work so I could go home.

Yes, but also, I remember, Dave, times when

I I didn't feel like Sheila and I were on the same page and I was working like that.

And it added weight to that work I was doing.

But I knew we were perfectly aligned.

This is going to be 24 months or 36 months of working full-time, going to grad school full-time, doing stuff on the side, working at night times on the weekends.

And I also felt lockstep at home.

Man, that made that so much easier.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

Jason's in Phoenix.

Hey, Jason, what's up?

Hey, good morning.

Good afternoon, guys.

How are you guys doing?

Better than we deserve.

How can we help?

Hey, yeah.

So me and my wife, we're currently working through the baby steps, and we're on baby step number two right now.

We have three children, a five-year-old, a three-year-old, and a one-month-old.

And we also have a nephew who's six months who's going to be involved in this, too.

And so my grandfather, he's not doing very well.

And he recently had a big falling out with my mom, and she's an only child.

So because of the falling out, he's decided to pretty much forego everyone in the will

and give all of his money to his great-grandchildren, which would be my three kids and my nephew.

It's a total of about $80,000.

And he's adamant that the money is for the great-grandkids.

He doesn't want anyone to touch it except for the great-grandkids, and he has kind of trusted me to see that through.

So my main question is, is

we've been kind of researching like opening up custodial brokerage accounts for these kids.

Correct.

So my main question is, should we open up like the custodial brokerage account?

We've looked into the 529 also, but we just need 529s.

Your custodial broker will be fine.

But it's not a brokerage account.

You just need to open some mutual funds as a custodial account.

Just say,

pick out some good gross stock mutual funds.

You're in charge of the account until they're 21.

These are called an UTMA, U-T-M-A,

Uniform Transfer to Miners Act.

Miners are not allowed to have contracts in the United States.

So they can't open a bank account.

They can't open a mutual fund.

Parents can open one with a kid's name on it, and it makes it feel like it's the kid's, but there's always an adult over 21 that's the custodian.

Yes, that's it.

Okay, so you're always going to be the custodian.

And when they turn 21, the money is theirs.

So, yeah, I would just go to ramseysolutions.com and click on Smart Vestor Pro, sit down with one of the people we recommend in the investment world.

We don't sell investments at Ramsey, but we do recommend people that do.

And they have the heart of a teacher.

They can sit down, and I would just pick a simple couple of mutual funds that are good growth stock mutual funds that just put the money in there and then just forget it until they're about 12 or 14.

And then I would start teaching them about investments and how they work.

And I would start letting them know that the money is there.

Do not surprise them with a lottery ticket when they turn 21.

Okay.

That creates an idiot.

I'm not sure exactly when to bring that up.

Yeah, you bring it up as soon as they are emotionally able to process the fact that the money's there and you bring it up well in advance because they're not in control and they can get over the, I just won the lottery because they didn't.

It's not that much money.

Yeah.

It's not enough money to change their life.

Okay.

But it will grow.

It'll probably be doubled by the time, or a little more, by the time they get to 21.

So,

and probably double twice, actually.

But yeah.

But But yeah,

you know, so yeah, you're going to have a couple hundred thousand bucks or so spread out among four kids.

So

it's good.

It's a nice thing.

And also have Pop be sure he tells everybody what he has done.

He doesn't leave it to you to tell them after he's gone because they're all going to be pissed at you.

They put you in a bad position, man.

Yeah.

Hey, guys, if you're going to make somebody mad in your will, have the courage to do it while you're alive.

Don't leave it to the people behind to do it because everybody gets pissed off at the wrong person then.

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Elle is in Charleston, South Carolina.

Hi, Elle.

How are you?

Hi, Dave.

Hi, Dr.

John.

I just want to say y'all keep encouraging me and helping me get through maternity leave.

So thank you so much for taking my call.

Sure.

How can we help?

Yes, so my husband and I, we're on babyset six.

We are both active duty military, and we have two kids.

We live far away from my family.

They live on the other side of the country.

And my question is, should we continue to split and or pay for my parents' plane tickets to come visit us?

My parents, they come out probably like seven to ten times a year just to help us with the kids and to connect with us, but we've been splitting their plane tickets and

just kind of wanted your perspective on

that.

They're not in a great place financially.

I don't know their exact finances, but I'm getting minds that it's not good

just with some of the things that they say.

yeah.

Because it's unusual that grandparents have their kids pay for the ticket to come see the grandkids.

Yes, my husband said the same thing.

Most people just buy an airline ticket, come see their kid.

You know, I mean, they don't think anything about it.

So there must have been some reason that we were doing this is what I was trying to figure out.

I'm not saying it's wrong.

I'm just saying it's unusual.

Yes, it is.

I think it could, and what I think it goes back to when I was a little kid with my mom, if I really wanted something, she would say, hey, I'll split it with you.

And that's how we would do it.

And so I think we've just been continuing kind of doing that.

So now when she really wants something, you split it with her.

I'm so confused.

I'll tell you this.

I moved away from my job.

Me and my wife moved away from her parents and my parents, our families.

And so I have still to this day have some guilt.

And so I put that on the table early on.

I'll fly y'all out there they have never come out seven to ten times a year

right because I know I'm I'm in it for a couple of plane tickets a couple times a year which is fine you sound like you're in it for thousands and thousands of dollars right

it's it's expensive um

they fly

uh probably like 300 to 500 dollars um every time they come out they fly um southwest so they fly pretty cheap um the cheapest that they can um to keep it kind of affordable.

They're not going first class by any means.

But yeah, they are spending a lot of money.

Okay, number one, you shouldn't do this if you're doing it out of guilt.

Correct.

Number two, you should not do this

if you are being manipulated into it.

The only reason you would do this is if it's an act of generosity.

But you used to split stuff with your mom when you were a kid because she was trying to have you have some skin in the game when you're buying something.

That has absolutely nothing to do with this.

Okay, gotcha.

That was her parenting you on your purchases need to have a cost.

But now her purchases need to have a cost.

So

unless you guys need the child care

help,

and this is your way of funding your child care help, is to have them come out more,

it's unusual.

And

I want to know why I'm doing it.

If it's just an act of generosity, or we've always done it that way, that doesn't work for me.

That's not good.

We are doing this because mom and dad are broke, and we really want them to come out, and we have the money, and it's an act of generosity.

And both you and your husband are in agreement on it.

That would be the only way you keep doing this.

And I kind of don't think that's what's going on here.

I kind of think y'all fell backwards into this, and it's just weird, and your husband's calling it is weird.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And then it turned into two or three times and now it's 10 times a year.

How many times is it really?

Is it that many?

It's so the first year that our first one was born, yes, it was.

She in fact flew 10 times out here.

It slowed down a lot more.

Obviously, we're only halfway through the year.

So she's probably been out here, you know, like four or five times.

And I think, too, the counter to that is my husband's parents, they live three hours up the road.

They're able to come visit.

Yeah, but that's not, that's not how it works.

That's not

a tit-for-tat.

It's not a

because your parents are.

If they live next door, it doesn't matter.

Yeah.

It's not your job to keep it balanced and equal.

Your parents are choosing to live where they live.

Daniel's in-laws live in Kansas City.

We live 30 minutes from Daniel.

He doesn't pay for their airline tickets.

Gotcha.

And doesn't feel any need to, by the way.

And so, you know, it's just unusual.

Now, if you guys want to do it, but I kind of think that

the way you're describing it, your sentence structures and everything, is leaving me with you are unsettled with this.

You're uncomfortable with this.

And your husband calling it out makes you double uncomfortable.

Yeah,

I think you hit it the nail on the head.

And if you're uncomfortable, that's what's bothering me.

If you called me up and went, I want to do this as an act of generosity.

It gives me great joy.

And this is awesome.

I would go, yeah, you got the money.

Go ahead.

That's fine.

It's not a big deal.

But

there's something rattling around with you that this doesn't feel right.

And your husband just said, oh, the emperor has no clothes.

That's exactly right.

And he's sensing his wife is not whole on this deal.

And he don't want to go along with something that you're feeling uncomfortable with.

Yeah, that you're feeling forced into.

There's a little guilt tripping of some kind going on.

So

I think we restructure it.

Let's have it just a reset, jump on the phone and go, mom, we're looking at this and we're working on some stuff in our budget.

And so we're not going to be able to fund your airline tickets anymore.

we love you, and we hope you can come as much as you want to come.

You're more than welcome.

We're not trying to run you off, but we've got some other stuff we're trying to do for the kids, uh, college funds and some other stuff with this money.

And um, gosh, I hope it doesn't cause you too much trouble.

But uh, if you're ever hungry or anything, let us know, we'll get you some food.

But but we're probably just gonna change the re have a reset on this and just tell your husband that they're probably gonna sell their house and say, Hey, we're moving to Charleston.

That has happened before.

So

one time we had a team member many, many years ago, over 20 something years ago, that misbehaved.

And

several of the leaders, we were together and we're like,

and every, we went around the room and we're like, okay, I had a bad feeling about that guy.

And that guy's been kind of weird.

There was something weird about that.

There's something weird about that.

Eight months ago, I was thinking to myself, that was weird.

Something weird about that.

And one of the other guys, one of the other leaders spoke up and said, okay, we have a new rule at Ramsey.

If everyone feels like something, if anyone feels like something is weird, it's probably because it's weird.

So let's just say,

if I get a weird vibe off this guy, I should probably just go, that's weird.

I get a weird vibe.

And then if seven of your colleagues say, no, they're great.

Then I can walk away from it.

But usually if you feel like something's weird, it's because it's weird.

Something weird.

That's right.

That was the point.

Can I celebrate your marriage?

Because your husband had the courage to say, I sent something not well in your soul, and I love you enough to put it on the table and say, we don't have to keep doing this.

Yes.

And good for you.

And he was gentle about it.

Good for him.

He's like, you have to give him a call Ramsey and they'll

settle the debate is what our call screener says.

Yeah, right.

So we get to throw, blow the whistle and put on the striped shirt and be the referees.

But yeah, he's a good, I like her husband.

Yeah.

He's a good dude.

Okay, good stuff.

So yeah, if something something doesn't feel right, guys, it's generally because it's not right.

That's the point.

And it's good to have wise counsel to bounce that off of.

Yeah, yeah.

And multitude of counsel, there's safety.

And,

but, yeah, it's a good decision-making tool to trust your instincts.

That's God's Spirit inside of you troubling your waters,

troubling your stomach.

You know, and it's not, it's not actually you have a physical, physiological reaction to something around the subject of money.

There's a reason.

It's not random.

Your body, as you say, your body's talking to you, or God's Spirit is using your body to talk to you, or whatever it is, however you want to get at it.

But that's this, I had a feeling.

Well, yeah, yeah, there's a reason you did.

Yeah.

It's because you...

You're taking in all the data and some of it is just below the surface and you don't even realize you're taking it in.

It's like sometimes when you

read someone's body language and they go, so what's wrong?

Nothing.

Well, no, something's wrong.

No, it's not.

Here's what I do in my own life.

I did this the other day.

When you start feeling like something doesn't feel right, write it down so you can look at it.

And that has a way of clarifying it, oh, that's not that big of a deal.

Or, oh my gosh, my body's right.

When I wrote this down, it really looks that out of your body onto a piece of paper where you can examine it.

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Jennifer is in Tampa, Florida.

Hi, Jennifer.

Welcome to the Ramsey Show.

Hello.

Thank you for taking my call.

Sure.

What's up?

I love the Every Dollar app.

Well, thank you.

Love it.

Appreciate the endorsement.

Very cool.

How can we help today?

I have a question.

My husband, us as a family, we would like to buy a boat, but my husband feels guilty because he feels like he's taken away

from our future.

Well, you would be, but you'd also be...

You'd also have a boat.

So

that's the truth.

I know.

I say buy the boat.

A, can you pay cash?

Yes.

Okay.

B, how much is the boat?

$55,000.

And what's your household income?

We're about $175,000.

Okay.

And what are your two cars worth?

We just owe $5,000 on a car.

No, I said, what are they worth?

Oh,

I think it's probably worth around $35,000.

One car?

His truck, yes.

What is the other car?

Other cars business.

Doesn't matter.

How much is the value of the car?

The car is probably worth $20,000.

And you own it?

Yes, sir.

Okay.

All right.

So the reason I'm adding these three things together is, yes, I would still buy the boat.

I'm confused as to why you have enough cash to pay $55,000 for a boat and still owe $5,000 on a car.

Why would that happen?

I know.

I say pay it off, but he's like the interest rate is so low it doesn't matter.

No one ever got rich with low interest rates on a car payment.

I that's absolute bogus bullcrap on a stick.

So write a check and pay off the car today and then buy the boat.

That's what I would do.

And I wouldn't feel guilty at all.

Now, here's the thing:

you're paying cash.

The rule of thumb is this: A, can you pay cash?

And B, all things that you own with motors or wheels

added together should not be more than half your annual income, and this does not violate that.

Got it.

Okay.

All right.

Because you've got too much invested in things that go down in value.

Boats go down in value 100%.

Okay.

Cars go down in value 100%.

Sea dews,

snowmobiles, lawn tractors, big tractors, little tractors, green tractors, and red tractors go down in value.

That's a children's book by Dave Ramsey.

I'm just saying.

I'm just trying to make sure I got all the tractors covered because the number of times I've talked to someone with $15,000 owed on their John Deere riding mower makes me want to throw up, okay?

So it's a riding mower.

So, yeah, you don't borrow money on that and have owe more on your John Deere riding mower than you do on your wife's car.

So, but rednecks might do that sometimes.

So, I'm just saying.

Hey, that is a good children's book called It Goes Down in Value by Dave Ramsey.

The red tractor and green tractor.

Hey, oh.

Yes, I would do this.

Now, are both of you want to buy a boat and he just feels guilty?

Well, he really wants to buy a boat, and I really want him to be happy.

So, yes, we both want to buy a boat.

Boats don't make you happy.

Boats make you sad.

No, friends with boats make you really happy.

Yeah.

I know.

He loves fishing,

and that's where his heart is.

I do have another question if you don't mind.

Okay.

We have money sitting in the money market right now, and

I don't know if that's our

best way to invest our money.

I hear a brokerage account.

No.

Should we transfer that over?

No, we don't do brokerage accounts are often used for people buying and selling stocks, and we don't want to get into that business.

But I would buy some mutual funds instead of having

sitting in a savings account you're gonna make a lot more money

so my extra money above emergency funds

and above money I've got set aside to purchase something with in the near term like a boat the extra money I have would go into good growth stock mutual funds

so like the last two years I made 23% 25%

the average though is only about 11%

but it's a whole lot more than 4%

Yes.

So, yeah, get with a Ramsey Smart, go to Ramseysolutions.com and get with one of our Smart Investor Pros and don't miss out on the stock market run-ups because that way you're getting the advantage of all the stuff going on in the economy that's positive.

And

the media is so hell-bent on not printing anything positive that

people forgot to look up and go, oh, the Dow set another record.

Oh, the Dow set another record.

Oh, the S P set another record.

Oh, the stock market's at an all-time high right now at this moment.

So, yeah, and it's been doing that for a while.

So,

yeah, you don't need to, you know, $200,000 sitting in there at 3% and calling that investing.

It's not.

It's saving.

And you don't want to save more than an emergency fund or more than near-term purchases like Christmases and boats.

And I'll tell you, I got a friend named Dave with an awesome boat and a couple of sea-doos, and I'm a happy guy.

You don't have one.

You don't have a boat.

Yeah, they break.

That's just everything that the more stuff you own, the more repairmen you have to know.

And boats are,

yeah, boats are expensive.

I fish a lot, and I've got a pedal kayak, so I feel like I can get my workout in, my fishing in at the same time.

You know, you can go down to the Ace Hardware and buy a little stainless steel screw that's an inch long for penny and a half, two pennies.

But if you buy it and it says on it for boats, it's $4.

Why is that?

And if it says it's for an airplane, it's $62.

So it's the same stinking screw, by the way.

So if it says marine on it or aircraft on it, the price changes.

But it's still a little stainless steel Phillips head screw.

That's still what it is.

And I'm sure if you use that screw and somebody repairs your boat, you violate the whole warranty.

The whole thing goes to...

Yeah, well, it'll probably sink.

A boat will probably sink.

That's probably.

It'll sink.

Yeah.

Not.

But anyway, yeah, you're going to spend money on everything that you own.

So the more stuff you own, houses, boats, whatever, the more repairmen you have to know.

So these things come with a cost.

They take up your mind space to maintain them.

And they take up your, and

they take up your wallet space to maintain them.

So there's nothing wrong with that.

Just make sure you can afford all of that, not just the purchase, because the purchase is just the beginning.

Right.

And you certainly can't justify it based on the per pound.

$55,000 divided into the number of pounds of fish you catch in a year would not be a good purchase price on the fish.

I tried to do that once with

fishing poles and all the gear.

Stating.

Yeah, I didn't.

Do it with hunting gear, too.

You can't kill enough litter or enough rattles.

I'm not happening to disagree with you on that.

The spreadsheet I made for my wife clearly shows that in 2035, I'll have netted out.

We will have broken even on hunting gear

after 42 years.

After 42 years.

And by then, of course, it won't even work.

So

you have to have another one.

That's the way it works.

So, yeah.

Good rule of thumb, then.

Let's put that back out there.

If it's got wheels or a motor, it goes down in value.

Add all that together and don't have more than half your annual income invested in things that go down in value.

It's very difficult to prosper doing that.

And don't use the word invest in front of something that goes down in value.

I invested in a boat.

No, that makes you look stupid.

And stop making stupid financial decisions based on, quote, I have a good interest rate.

I'm so sick of that.

It just means I'm paying the bank less of my money every month to make them wealthier.

That's just dumb.

Especially when you have $55,000 in an account right there.

Yeah, you pay cash for it.

Just

pay off the car.

Pay off the car by nightfall.

I'm not big on husbands and wives making deals, but that's a good deal.

Tell them, go buy the boat, but you got to pay the car off today.

That'd be a good move.

It probably would be a terrible move, but I would do that in my house.

Yeah, I'm not big on them making deals like that because that'll come back to haunt you.

It will.

It will.

There'll be another one come around.

There'll be something else come around.

Yeah, but you remember that time I did that deal with you?

Yeah.

Now it's your turn to make a deal.

No, this is the smart thing for us to do is to buy a boat.

We can afford it.

The smart thing for us to do is to pay off the car.

And let's get going.

And that's smart.

It's not smart to keep a car financed.

There is no scenario.

None.

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Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, it's the Ramsey Show, where we help people

build wealth, do work that they love, and create actual, amazing relationships.

Dr.

John Deloney, Ramsey personality, number one best-selling author, host of the Dr.

John Deloney Show on Ramsey Networks, is my co-host today.

Rachel's with us in Salt Lake City.

Hi, Rachel.

How are you?

Good.

How are you?

Better than I deserve.

What's up?

So, I'm wondering how we can apply the baby steps and get my husband through college.

What's he taking?

So he's going into software engineering.

Okay, and why would he be in college for that?

That's the last place I would go to learn software engineering.

Really?

Yeah, really.

I got a whole bunch of them, like 300 of them that work here.

I have 300 of them that work here.

They went to code school.

Okay.

They didn't go get a four-year degree.

The number of them that have four-year information systems degree is almost zero.

Now, a few people that do cybersecurity stuff at a real high level go get a four-year degree, but to be a software engineer, you don't need a four-year degree.

Matter of fact, a lot of it, what you take is a waste.

So, why is he doing that?

The best thing I've heard in a long time.

What?

She's sent me a lot of time.

She's crying.

I've never heard in a long time.

Oh, okay.

It's good.

Why are you crying, hon?

Oh, I'm just like super scared out of my mind.

What are you scared about?

My husband is trying very hard to support our family.

We have three kids and I have no education to warrant more than minimum wage.

Disagree with you wholeheartedly on that assessment.

Education does not give you anything to warrant anything.

All it does is give you tools to do a job.

But

this idea that you've got the idea that a degree is a ticket into a club that you're not worthy to belong to called success, and that's not true.

There's very little correlation to that.

That's the old thing from the 50s and 60s where they sold everybody to go into college loan debt because if you don't get a degree, you're never going to be anything.

And not true.

So,

what is he doing now?

He's attending university.

That's it.

So, he's in school full-time?

Yes.

And doesn't work?

Yes.

How are y'all eating?

We have access to a 529 account

that has $30,000 in it for us to use towards education.

Yeah, and that's how he's paying for his tuition.

How are you buying food?

A food stamps.

Yeah, you're not scared about yeah, geez, man.

You're scared because your husband's not working for you.

He already quit his job.

Yeah.

What was he doing before he quit?

He was working at a customer service representative.

All right, let me just,

I'm going to be as bold

as I can.

I worked a full-time job as a dean of students.

I also was an adjunct professor at two different universities, and I ran around with police officers.

police officers in the middle of the night and I was a full-time doctoral student.

Why?

Because I had a family to provide for and I had dreams of things being being different in the future.

And that meant I couldn't just cash out on my responsibility to take care of my family.

He can't either.

You don't get to put your kids, the three kids, on food stamps so you can go get a degree.

Wrong answer.

No, he needs to go to work and he needs to stay up all night doing his assignments at his coding school.

You have $30,000 that will cover the cost.

He can go to code school while he works a full-time job.

Or two full-time jobs.

Or three.

You are right to be terrified because your husband's cashed out on your family right now, you and the three little kids.

And I would tell him that if he was sitting right in front of me.

Okay.

Extremely irresponsible.

Tell him that when...

Play this clip back to him.

Have him call us.

Dude, you're irresponsible.

There you go.

I just said it for him.

Here's how it has to start, honey.

So you have to sit down and say, I'm scared to death.

It's not.

But listen, it's it's not a dream.

He's living.

It's a nightmare.

Okay?

Your primary focus on this planet is not to self-actualize and feel good.

And I want to live my dream, I want to live my passions.

Well, cry me a whambulance.

Whah.

Seriously, you go get a job and you feed your freaking kids

first.

Before we talk about your dreams,

okay?

And then you work 16 hours a day and make sure everybody's taken care of.

And then in the middle of the night, I wrote the book Financial Peace from 10 p.m.

to 2 a.m.

is when that book was written.

And that's when I wrote my dissertation from 10 p.m.

till 2 a.m.

till your face falls asleep on the keyboard.

Yeah.

You get up and down.

And that's when little babies upstairs asleep and a wife upstairs asleep.

And I would get three or four hours of sleep and I would get up the next morning and go to, oh, work

while I was building my dream of financial peace.

So, no,

this is a bad plan, darling.

It's a bad plan.

There's so much wrong with your plan that's unbelievable.

I think the problem is it's not her plan.

No, I'm his plan.

I'm sorry, his plan.

So, okay, look, number one, let's just start with the fact you don't need a four-year degree to be a software engineer.

Boom, right there.

Okay.

That just shortcut, hey, that gets, it's shortened the on-ramp.

And we've got a 529 with 30 grand in it.

You paid for it.

There you go.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Bethel, is that the people?

Bethel Tech's got programs.

Bethel Tech has programs for the.

I don't know if they're still an advertiser.

They advertise with us for a while, but they're good people.

I've worked with them.

They do a good job teaching coding.

We've sent people from Ramsey there to be taught coding.

And so you can become a software engineer.

You start out dev one, you work,

keep working your search, and you can get to dev two, dev three, dev three is going to make a couple of hundred grand right now.

Okay, maybe a little more.

And if you want to move all the way into cybersecurity, you probably get up to a half million.

But

that's a different level.

But

you can go out and get a software degree that's much more than better.

I mean, software, go to code school and write enough code to make a whole lot more than you would as a customer service rep.

But you don't cash out on your family to do it.

To do it.

You do that and.

And that's just part of being a

shit.

I just want to do my dream.

You don't want to smack your dream.

You turn it into a nightmare for everybody else.

Oh, God.

And then your crying wife has to call us and say, help, please.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's how you tell him.

You play this back.

It won't be pleasant for him.

It's okay.

We're in the business of telling people the truth because we love them.

And we want you to win.

We want you to succeed.

We want him to succeed.

We want you to succeed.

Let's lean on this, too.

Just because you don't have a degree doesn't mean you don't have to make minimum wage.

That's absolute bullcrap.

You have to make a minimum wage.

It's not true.

Bull crap.

And it may be that you got to get a minimum wage job to get money in the door right this second, but you're looking all the time after that job and you're going to find yourself.

Listen, minimum wage is seven and a quarter.

Target, if you just show up and breathe and bathe, will pay you $20.

Okay?

That's the qualifications to work at Target.

I don't think that's true.

Bathe and breathe.

That's it.

You make 20 bucks an hour.

And minimum wage is seven and a quarter.

So

no, you're not minimum wage.

You know what makes a summer party great?

Good friends, cold drinks, and great food.

But you know what can bring the party down?

Spending way too much money to make it all happen.

And that's why I get my summertime grocery hauls at Aldi.

They've got USDA choice meats, fresh organic produce, and all the stuff you need for an epic or low-key backyard barbecue without breaking the bank.

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Paul is in Los Angeles.

Hey, Paul, how are you?

Hi, Dave.

Thanks for taking my call.

I'm a big fan of yours.

Well, thank you.

How can we help?

Well, I'm going to be inheriting about $685,000.

And

I have

a debt of $162,000 for my mortgage at 2.9% fixed.

And I also have a $23,000

mortgage.

It's horrible.

It's 8.09%.

And I owe $13,000 on my car at 2.9% fixed.

And I also need to put maybe up to about 100 grand in my home on repairs, not

gingerbread stuff, things that it really needs.

So my question is, do I pay off all those debts or some of them?

Well, my goal is with the money, I want to buy real estate.

become a landlord again.

So my question is, do I pay off all those debts before I buy property and then use the property to pay off the debts, or do I pay off all the debts or some of them and then go and buy a property, which means I would buy a lesser value property if I pay off all the debts?

Yeah.

Well, I mean, you started the conversation with your big fan, so that means you've listened to the show.

Right.

And 100% of the time, you know, I'm going to move away from debt, right?

Right.

And the reason I do that is that I have learned that several wonderful things happen when I am out of debt.

One is the quality of my life goes way up.

The peace in my life goes way up.

The quality of my relationships are increased because the stress is down everywhere in my life.

Very few people get to tell you what to do when you don't have a mortgage.

It just changes everything.

I paid off $50,000 of credit cards.

You're making progress.

And the reason you did that is the freedom that goes with it.

And then, of course, the mathematical side of the equation is that when you don't have any debt, you have money

because all the money you're paying the stupid bank now is yours.

And so I have used that money once I was debt-free to build up an account and buy a piece of real estate with it.

And then build up an account and buy a piece of real estate with it.

I've got an LOI right now out on a big commercial property that I'm going to develop if it goes all through.

And so

I got it under contract, tied up while we're doing the due diligence on the property right now.

But it'll all be cash.

And then when I have another piece of real estate

that I paid cash for that's making money, I make that much more money and then make much more money and it snowballs in the positive direction.

All of that to say, the math and the peace and the spiritual aspects and the relational aspects all lead me to tell everyone to live live this wonderful life that I've had the privilege of choosing to live, which is not having any payments owed to a single person.

Owe no man nothing but a debt of love.

And so

that's how I live, and it's a great life.

So I highly recommend it to everybody.

So what would I do if I woke up in your shoes?

Well, I'd ride a check, pay off everything.

Interest, you know, the interest rate on my mortgage is zero.

I don't have one.

So

I'll beat your mortgage.

So

the

pay it all off and then pay cash for with the money that's left a nice little rental property somewhere to get started and

or save up some more money and add to it so you can buy a little better rental property.

I don't care.

I'm with you.

I like real estate, but I pay cash for it and I've grown my real estate portfolio this time

much slower.

And

it's a little bit hard to get, you know, I've done detailed, in-depth research, and 100% of the foreclosures occur on a house with a mortgage.

Is there any, Dave, is there any formula that exists that says once you pay off one house and you save up and pay the second one with cash,

the diminishing time it takes to buy the third or the fourth,

is there any formula for that?

It would just be a spreadsheet.

You're just running those cash flows out because it would depend on the properties.

And I guess how expensive a place you're buying.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And what the returns are, how well you rent it, how good a job you do manage it and all that stuff.

But basically, I mean, once you've, if you're buying houses and you're gonna start that way okay

you know if you once you've got about five houses think about the cash flow on five properties with no mortgages you can buy about a house a year out of that

you know after that so you'll make enough on those if you just don't consume the rent money the rent money all goes into kitty to buy the next one right and when you got six you can do it even faster when you got seven you can do it even if you got ten of them you can do it real fast and so if you'll be patient the first decade you get into this the decades two and three and four can snowball on you in a positive snowball.

In a positive snowball.

Yeah, it gets bigger.

Every time the snowball rolls over, every time I've got more properties, I've got more cash coming in every month, and I can buy another one faster and another one faster and another one faster.

Every time it rolls over, it picks up more snow.

That's what we're talking about.

And so

but you know, having the patience when you want to be doing real estate and everybody on TikTok is telling you you can get rich financing it up to your eyeballs.

And, you know, some goober on Instagram has rented a jet and says that that's my jet and I did it's it's not even his right he just pointed at it and rented it rented a Bentley for the day and doesn't even own one and just you know to take pick to do a photo shoot to say I sell real estate courses and and you buy that crap then you're gonna go broke I mean I did and everybody that does that stuff goes broke And so the only guy making money on all that's the guy with the rented Bentley.

He's selling you a $3,000 course for the weekend to buy real estate.

Nothing down.

Well, the bank gets rich on you.

Yeah, exactly.

And you just,

100% of the time, more debt equals more risk.

Less debt equals less risk.

And increased cash flow.

So you want a sustainable quality of life.

Wonderful.

Peaceful.

I mean,

we have horrible things that we go through with some of our rental properties from time to time,

but none of them are associated with paying a payment.

It's all just the stuff you deal with when you're dealing with people doing stupid human tricks.

But it's just part of the process.

Olivia is in Orlando.

Hi, Olivia.

How are you?

How are you guys?

Better than we deserve.

What's up?

All right.

So I'm not sure where to start exactly.

I have, I'm trying, I'm on the rice and beans diet now, like you guys suggest, been doing, working on all the right stuff.

I'm literally just started this last week, so I'm new to budgeting and everything.

I've gotten all my debt and everything.

I want to do the snowball, the debt snowball, but I have a couple questions about where I should start.

Okay.

So I know that you guys,

so the debt snowball is to start with the highest balance regardless of interest rate.

Lowest balance.

Lowest balance.

I mean, lowest balance regardless of interest rate.

Sorry.

And I

have a couple things that are in collections.

Are you paying on them?

No, I don't even know how.

They're just sitting there.

No, they're just sitting there.

You're not paying on them.

Yes.

Don't put those in your debt snowball.

Okay.

Wait till you get

the stuff you're paying on paid off.

Then you're going to have a lot more money because you don't have any payments at that point.

And you can call them up and offer them a lump sum settlement.

Okay.

And get it in writing.

Okay.

But don't set those up on payments and don't pay on them at all until you get this other stuff cleaned up.

Next question right quick.

What do I do about my car?

How much do you owe?

About $6,783 is my.

What do you make?

Let's see.

Monthly,

I take home about $2,200.

It depends on the pay week

because my hours differ.

How old are you?

23?

26.

26.

Okay.

What are you doing?

Yep.

What do you do for a living?

I'm a medical assistant.

Okay.

You need to look for a job.

Yeah.

You're starving to death.

Yeah, you're starving to death.

And you need to look for an extra job in the meantime.

And your car is fine.

We just need to get paid off.

But one of the reasons that your budget is tight is you don't make any money, kiddo.

You're starving.

And so we're going to increase your income with short-term, part-time jobs right now.

And then you start looking for a new job.

You're worth more than that.

And you hang on.

We're going to help you.

I'm going to put you into Every Dollar.

And Kelly, I want to sign her up for the webinar too so that she can be with one of the Ramsey personalities and see how to do the budget.

I want to teach her how because she's ready.

She's willing.

And let's help her.

Let's help her do that.

Put her in Every Dollar as our gift.

And then make sure she's in that webinar this week.

If you're buying or selling a home with all the clickbait ads that are going on and all the garbage on the

social media, all you get is drama.

Let me tell you, when you're looking at an unstable, weird situation, facts are your friends.

So, when you're dealing with real estate right now, you need facts, not opinions, not your broke brother-in-law flipping out because he thinks he can't buy anything and all that stuff.

Instead, you need to know what's actually going on.

Okay, and we've got the data for you.

You can go to ramseysolutions.com/slash market, and you'll be able to keep updated on what is actually happening in the market.

For instance, as of this moment, there's 1,082,520 homes on the market in America.

That is the highest inventory since 2019.

Demand, however, is higher than the inventory, and so house prices have not gone down,

period.

They have not gone down.

They've gone up.

The median home price this month is up again, and it's $441,000 right now in America.

And it was less than that last month, and it was less than that the month before, and it was less than that the month before.

So that's what's really going on.

Interest rates are hovering just a 15-year fixed is 5.95, just below 6%.

And that's not a bad interest rate, unless you compare it to two.

But if you compare it to 12, it's half.

It's not a bad interest rate.

And plenty of times, the real estate market has boomed at 9%, 10%, 11%, 12%.

And

you get above 12%, it starts to slow down.

But the interest rates have, you know, the market has moved at plenty of times with higher interest rates than this.

And so it's not a bad thing.

And by the way, when it comes to real estate, you date the rate and you marry the house.

So you get the right house at the right time, at the right price.

And if rates go down, you refinance.

And or you just pay off the mortgage and then you got a 0%.

So there you go.

Ramseysolutions.com slash market.

You can keep up with all this.

Anthony is in Myrtle Beach.

Hi, Anthony.

How are you?

I am great.

And I think the facts is my friend, and actualities is a very good lead-in for this call.

And so, I appreciate that because that's what I'm looking for.

I'm looking for facts and actualities, not dreams.

I'm looking for some goal help.

Okay.

Here's my situation.

I guess I'm on step seven.

I told you, Screener, that

we don't have kids, so I guess I I got

a lowered step there.

But so that said,

debt-free, I've got about $250,000 in cash.

300, I would say 450 between my wife and I and our 401ks.

Now that

our house is done, we're looking to find

investment help, and we have been looking at your suggested investment advisors.

The problem is, is that I'm getting a lot of feedback that

I don't know.

I'm not an investor.

And what's happening is I'm getting feedback like, oh, we'll make you a multi-millionaire.

Then I get guys that are like, well, if you can't put away $30,000 a year, you might as well eat cash.

It's like, so I don't know what the real number here is.

No, no, no, wait a minute.

Ramsey Trusted

Smart Investor Pros did not say that.

No, no, to be fair, they didn't.

What I'm trying to say, though, is there's a lot of range there because what they're asking me is, what are your goals?

And I'm like, I'm 53, my wife is 60.

I don't know what my goals are.

That's what I need help with.

Okay.

Well, it's

congratulations.

You've done very well.

What is your home worth?

I would say right now, somewhere between $4 and $4.35.

Okay.

All right.

And

what's your household income?

With my wife and I, probably in the area of $200.

Okay.

Good for you.

Well done.

All right.

Well,

what I would suggest doing at that stage is to max out all the,

keep the government's hands off your money programs, 401ks, Roth IRAs, do everything Roth that you can do,

because that's all going to grow tax-free.

And you're going to discover when you get to be my age, 64, that you're not staring down the barrel of a

and a half year uh old mandatory withdrawals rmds required minimum withdrawals okay

and so um

if you if you're in roths you don't have that if you're in a regular traditionals you do so i'm gonna i'm gonna move everything towards roth i'm gonna spend some money to do that i'm gonna put new stuff all in roth 401ks roth irras i'm gonna max out everything keep the government's hands off of it now but as far as the amount of money i'm aiming at as a goal, I never set a certain amount.

I just said I want to build wealth and so that I can do three things in my case.

One is a good man leaves an inheritance to his children's children.

You don't have kids, but you're going to leave an inheritance to someone to be a blessing.

Number two is I want to be outrageously generous.

And I've noticed that to be outrageously generous, you have to have outrageous amounts of money.

And so let's do that.

And then three is I want Sharon and I to be able to do whatever we want to do.

And if she wants a car, I can just go get a car.

If she wants to go to freaking Croatia, which we just did, it's wonderful.

We loved it.

And she really loved it.

And we did it.

And so didn't think anything about it.

I want you to be able to do some stuff like that, right?

When you're my age, that's 10 years from now for you.

So you want to be able to enjoy the money, to be generous with the money, and to leave a legacy with the money.

And that's what money, that's the only thing you can do with the money.

It's the only three things you can do with it, is give it, live it, and invest it.

And so I'm going to invest with that in mind.

But yeah, you should have

making $200 a year, maxing out everything for the next 10 or 15 years, plus the,

you know, you're already a millionaire, roughly, or probably are a millionaire, actually, with all the numbers you gave me.

You are.

Yeah, you are.

Good.

And so you should have your net worth approach $10 million.

That's where it should go.

But why?

And the only reason why is so that I can do good with the money for me, mine, and others.

You know?

Money's not good for anything, just piling it up, but

it's really good when you can do good with it.

And that includes doing something nice for your wife who put up with you all these years and that kind of stuff.

Yeah, okay.

So it makes sense.

Okay, so I'm looking at this too much from from a, when I'm asked that question, what are my goals?

I'm looking too much at it.

My goal is to build a big old big old pile of wealth with steady investing.

That sounds good.

I didn't think of it that way.

I automatically went right to the numbers.

Yeah,

that's a good thing to do.

There's nothing wrong with that.

And then, you know, but just run the numbers out and go, okay,

if I fully fund my Roths, my 401ks, and I fully fund, and I'm making 200K, you're going to max out everything, by the way.

You'll be able to max out your 401ks.

You'll max out your Roths, all that.

You know, if I fully fund all of that and I do another whatever, then here's where we'll be, and we're going to consume the rest of it.

We're going to enjoy it.

Very good.

Yeah.

And so, and run those numbers out, and you're going to see a $10 million number.

That's what you're going to see when you run that number out.

I'm pretty sure

I didn't run it on a calculator, but I'm pretty sure I'm right.

Here's what I love about that, Dave.

You've been teaching that for three decades now.

You and I both, our buddy James Clear, I love the way he framed it, which is

reverse engineer an identity,

not a deadline.

And so we both know people who get obsessed with, I've got to have a million dollars.

Well, you sacrifice joy, family, giving,

you become a monster in pursuit of this thing.

If your identity is, I'm a guy who builds wealth, who enjoys my life, and who gives a ton of it away, you will end up far surpassing this white-knuckle gold thing you are obsessed with.

That's why it's always so humorous to me when someone says, well, you know,

you could get a million dollars, but that's not enough.

And I'm like, enough for what?

For what?

For what?

That's right.

It's not as much as it used to be.

Right.

I mean, when everybody started celebrating millionaires the first time, Monopoly was popular.

It was the 1920s,

the go-go roaring 20s before the crash and the Great Depression.

Millionaires then, that'd be like having 12, 14 million now,

or maybe a little more.

And so it was a lot of money then, but it's still a lot of money.

But now if you have a money, it's still more than most folk got.

If you have paid for a house,

covered.

Still more than most folk got it.

You got money to eat, covered.

Now it's just about who are we going to be?

Yeah, who do we want to be?

And really, that's what you're aiming at all along.

That's the whole first thing, though, is sustainability.

You know, that's who we is.

The Ramsey Show question of the day is brought to you by Why ReFi.

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Might not be in all states.

Today's question comes from Matthew in Ohio.

Matthew writes, My wife and I are in our 20s and we're on baby step two.

My in-laws make good money but are in a lot of debt.

Whenever my wife goes shopping with them, she always comes home with something she has hinted to me about wanting that they purchased for her.

Am I wrong to feel as if my in-laws are enabling her to continue bad habits by purchasing what she wants without practicing patience herself?

She knows they are in debt and what was purchased was most likely put on a credit card.

Hmm.

Dave, I'm torn on this one because here's what I'm hearing.

Hearing two things.

One,

I'm hearing a husband that wishes he could buy his wife stuff and he can't, and so he wants to shut the whole thing down.

And I also hear a husband who wants to be the parents of her parents and dictate how they do what they do and when they do it for their child.

And he's also wanting to parent his wife.

That's right.

Also be the father slash mother.

He's talking about her like

she's his 17-year-old daughter.

And she's developing bad habits hanging out with her mother.

Yeah.

I'm sorry.

I don't like that.

Yeah.

So, I mean, if Matthew, if you and your wife get together and say, hey,

we don't want to support our parents' bad money habits, and so we're just going to stop taking stuff.

We're going to stop letting them buy things for us.

You can do that.

Let's reframe the position that your wife is in.

Okay, your wife is not your child.

Correct.

And the two of you as two freaking grown-ups should sit down and talk about this.

Honey, it bothers me.

Your mom and dad shouldn't be putting crap on a credit card that they can't afford, that are buying us stuff we can't afford.

Right.

It's bothersome to me.

Does that not bother you?

As a grown woman, you should be able to look at your mom and go, No, I can't afford this.

You can't afford this.

We shouldn't be doing this.

You should, honey, we need to talk this through.

You need to be on that page.

He needs to get with his wife and raise her up and involve her in a noble discussion rather than a

tactical, I'm going to tell you what to do discussion.

That's right.

And

the second thing here is what gets me most frustrated with Matthew and with her.

Matthew, you're really frustrated that your wife wants something, and if she can't get you to get it for her because y'all can't afford it, she's going to go manipulate her parents into buying it for her.

What you seem to be upset here really is your wife's attitude.

And so sit down and have that conversation.

That's what exactly I'm saying.

Yeah.

Yeah, and I would be too.

Yeah, absolutely.

I would be too.

It's like we are on a plan because we are trying to get out of this and your mom and dad are screwed up and we don't need to add to their debt to circumvent the fact that we're working on this for and be making purchases that, frankly, this household doesn't even be making right now.

Right.

And so,

you know, no, that's, that's, there's so much wrong with this whole situation, but it's not framed in

you've got the high ground and the parents and your wife all need to be brought into line.

That's not it at all.

It's that you and your wife need to be in,

go visit a place of nobility where the two of you as two adults decide what is best for your family.

And

I do not think that your wife is building bad habits here, other than the bad habit of running to mommy.

Well, I was going to say, I would be willing to bet money that this is not the only place when she doesn't get what she wants from one place, she'll go and figure out a way to get it somewhere else.

And so, Matt, it's being honest about what is beneath the money question here.

Brock is in Knoxville.

Hey, Brock, how are you?

Good.

How about you?

Better than I deserve.

How can I help?

I got a weird question that's kind of specific to me.

I'm 23.

I'm a huge fan of yours.

I've known about you for a long time.

I saw you on the Sean Ryan show.

That's something I watch all the time.

And I just want to say I'm a huge fan of how you are unashamed about letting people know that God has done great things for you.

That's something that I really admire and I look up to and hope that I can be that way someday.

But the specific question I have would be, I guess, I'm kind of at a clean slate in life right now.

I'm 23.

I'm about to go back to school.

I'm going to trade school for IT.

And I've been in debt for like my whole adult life.

Since I turned 18, I moved out.

My parents got divorced.

So I moved out.

And I've just now dug myself out of that hole for the most part through some blessings with family members and things like that.

And I just want to know, you know, someday when I get out of this year-long training and I'm making some type of decent money.

I plan to have a part-time job while I'm in school.

What can I do to prosper?

Because up until this point, it's been hell.

I've tried to take care of myself, me and my fiancé, just struggling by on a full-time income the best we can but it's just like wages aren't proportionate to the expenses of everyday living anymore so i guess that's my question no no that's not

prosper that's not true wages are definitely proportionate to the expenses of everyday living your wages

maybe aren't exactly but wages in general are

yeah lots of people prospering we've been rented for a long time and

you're 23 you haven't done anything for a long time yeah yeah you're talking two old guys man.

Yeah, I feel old.

I do.

I feel old because it's like I'm.

Well,

you've been through a tough patch, and you're fighting through it.

I really like your moxie.

I like your confidence and how you're leaning forward until you went sideways with me there on the

way to the woe with me.

That thing, like you're somehow.

Listen.

You are taking the steps to control your success.

You control your success.

There's no boogeyman in the economy.

There's no boogeyman in capitalism.

You control your success.

And what you figured out is I'm not making enough money, so I need to go get some training to make more money.

Good for you.

Well done, sir.

So you're going to code school for a year, right?

Yes, sir.

What do you make now?

I'm going to do a cybersecurity at UT.

Awesome.

Currently, I'm unemployed.

Why?

So I actually just, I just moved.

So her family.

From Merville to Oneida, Tennessee.

And you're going to University of Tennessee?

Well, no, I'm going to be going to TCAT for a year, and then I'm going to do a few months of coding training at UT.

It's like a boot camp thing they have that I plan to do afterwards.

After my TCAT is up, I'm going to go to UT.

That's the plan.

My goal is to have every certification I can get so that when I go looking for a job, I have no issues finding one.

No,

you just need enough certifications to get a job.

And as a matter of fact, you can probably get that now.

You got to be doing something right now.

When are you going to work?

So, like I said, I just moved recently.

I had to quit my job because it was going to be like a two-hour commute.

I was working at a credit union down there, and I quit because we moved so far.

And I was like, you know, I'll

Maryville is not a two-hour commute to Knoxville.

No, no, no.

I'm saying I moved to Oneida.

Why?

From Maryville to Oneida because that's where my fiancé's family is from.

And they offered us the ability to move into their trailer, rent-free, no house payment.

So we gave up our $2,700 a month house payment in Maryville, where I'm from, to move to where she's from.

And although, you know.

Yeah, but Oneida to Knoxville is a commute, dude.

That's a long way.

Yeah, it's like 50, 55 to an hour, something like that.

Yeah.

But yeah, that's my goal.

And I've been looking.

There was not a two-hour commute anywhere in this story.

What happened?

I'm so confused.

Okay, so I'm sorry.

I know it's a lot.

It's been a lot.

No, where was the two-hour commute?

From Knoxville to Oneida.

Yes.

There was a commute to go see her mother.

But not to work.

I work in Madisonville.

I worked in Madisonville.

So I drove, I would have had to drive from Oneida to Madisonville every day.

That's the two-hour commute.

Oh, I see.

So that's that's why I had to quit my job because I couldn't drive from Oneida to Madisonville every day.

It just wasn't realistic.

You quit your job to go get a free trailer.

Now you don't have a job.

Yeah.

Yes, sir.

Okay.

But the plan was, here's why.

We were so struggling to get by in the house that we lived in because it was so expensive.

It was a $2,700 a month payment.

And with everything else we have going on, it was just hard for us to get by paying those payments.

And they said, hey, you can move in.

Yeah, so the tail's wagging the dog, though, dude.

You quit your job.

You could sell the house and not quit your job.

You sell the house to stay in that end of town, that end of the country, and keep your job.

Now you don't have a job.

You set your feet on fire.

You traded your job for a trailer rent with your mother-in-law.

So

that's what's blowing my mind here no you honey you the way you're going to prosper is you're going to go back to work okay now

now while you're going to school full-time you're going to work full-time i worked 40 to 60 hours a week in maryville when i was at the university of tennessee and i graduated in four years

I was sick and tired of being sick and tired, bankrupt with a toddler and a brand new baby at home, scared, doesn't even begin to cover it, but I got mad enough to change.

I started using God's and grandma's ways of handling money.

That journey became the total money makeover, a plan everyday people can use to take control of their money.

Millions have changed their lives following the plan in this book and found hope.

Start your makeover today at ramseysolutions.com slash store.

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Mike's in Seattle.

Hi, Mike.

How are you?

Good, sir.

How are you?

Better than I deserve.

How can I help?

So my wife and I, you know, we got ourselves, it was mainly my fault.

I'll be completely honest about that.

Mainly, you know, I'm the spender in the marriage.

We got married about five years ago now, and, you know, I kind of, I racked up some credit card debt, and we've been trying to pay it off.

The only thing we've done right during this entire time is we've earned a lot, and we've tithed consistently the entire time.

Right now, we're tithing about $3,000 to $5,000 a month.

We earn anywhere from $300,000 to $350,000 a year,

but we just cannot seem to get ahead of this debt thing.

So I guess my first question would be:

how does God feel about me not tithing and using that extra $3,000, $4,000 or $5,000 a month to try to get out of debt?

I don't think you have a 10% problem.

I think you have a 90% problem.

Okay.

You're horrible at managing money.

Yeah, for sure.

I mean, you make $350,000 and you're broke.

So 10% doesn't fix that.

I mean, I can tell you how God feels about it, and I will sidebar that in a few minutes, but let's actually deal with what's going on because 10% doesn't fix it.

How much debt have y'all got?

In credit cards, you got like 43.

I've got 45

on a tesla and uh probably 30 left on a ram okay all right

and then you know our mortgage is probably it's like 505 we've got left yeah instead of worrying about three thousand dollars a month why don't we get rid of two forty five thousand dollar cars

yeah

and i knew i knew you'd i knew you'd say that dave

uh my whole thing is um you know i'm in construction and i i probably drive more than anyone you know i drive about four,

easily 4,000 miles a month.

And I was doing that with a traditional state.

So you work in Canada?

No, no, just all over the state.

Just all over the state.

Yeah,

I'd probably drive.

So you're destroying a $30,000 ramp.

Oh, yeah.

I've had it a year, and it's, I don't know, it's probably got like 50,000 miles on it already.

Yeah.

So you're destroying the value rapidly.

Oh, for sure.

That's a bad business decision.

It is.

It is.

So

I don't even know where to start.

I mean,

I do.

I just started and you sidetracked automatically.

I just told you.

How much do you bring home a month?

$350,000 a year, $25,000 a month.

Yeah, it's about that.

I bring home about $20,000.

Okay, but hold on.

Let's say you have $1,000 a month truck payment.

You got $1,000 a month Tesla payment.

That's $2,000.

That's $23,000 left.

I know.

Where's it going?

Then you got a house payment for half a million dollars.

Let's say it's $7,000, right?

And you're down to what?

$23 minus $7.

Was that $16,000?

Like, what are you doing with this money?

I don't know.

You can't even blame the debts.

That's where God's concerned.

He's not worried about your tithe.

Those that are faithful, if you want to be spiritual about it, we'll talk about what the Bible says.

When you're faithful with the little things,

you'll be given more to manage.

And you've not been faithful with what you've been given.

And so, listen, you're building a house.

If you built a house this shoddy, it'd fall over.

Yep.

Yep.

Okay, so you've got to get it.

You and your wife need to sit down and say, all right, we've been too blessed to be this sloppy.

We're going to start managing this money.

We're going to make this money behave.

And in the midst of that, we're going to make some decisions about purchases and paying off debts.

Okay.

But 90, I mean, $110,000 gets you out of debt.

You could be debt-free in a year if you bothered to live on $200,000.

I know.

So that's all it takes.

It doesn't take the tithe is not blocking you mathematically.

What's blocking you is the other 90% that's not being managed well.

So let's get on a written plan.

I'll put you into every dollar.

the premium version, and you and your wife sit down tonight and you all start a plan where you spend every dollar on paper before the month begins and you start making the money that you have behave.

Here's what's weird.

You will get peace immediately once you get on top of this money instead of it being on top of you.

All this disjointed chaos is robbing your peace.

And you mentioned a couple of times, I'm the spender, and you mentioned regret and shame and those kinds of things.

That stuff goes away when you just decide those emotions, negative emotions, all go away when you just decide me and my wife are grown-ups and we're going to tell our money what to do and we're going to look at God and be proud of how we've managed what he has blessed us with.

And then the tithe is not an issue anymore because you're going to clear the debt and tithe and you're a hardworking dude.

You're a very productive guy.

You don't have any trouble making money.

You just have trouble keeping it.

So, yeah, and dude, i don't want you to i don't want you to look up 10 years from now and go hey i made three million dollars in the last 10 years and i got nothing

yeah that would be like having the worst hangover ever yeah and that's where i'm headed yeah so um other than the every every dollar budget should i be selling everything you know should i go that that way you may need to but i think what you got to do more than anything else is get your your monthly cash flow under control and if you can't redirect enough of that to clear these debts and start living on less than you make, then you've got other issues

because you make a lot of money.

How's your health?

It's terrible.

Okay.

Here's what you need more than anything.

Okay.

Yeah.

Because this doesn't happen in a vacuum.

You're a guy who's lost trust in himself.

Yep.

And you don't need a hack

on this issue.

Well, on your health, on your weight, you've lost trust in you, haven't you?

Yep.

Yes.

And

you've tried to achieve that with a dollar amount in a bank account, and it hasn't hasn't made you feel whole.

What you need more than a hack is,

as my friend Lane says, stop stepping over $100 bills to pick up pennies.

You need

a steady, consistent display of discipline for nobody else but you to begin to prove to yourself that you're worth

feeling good.

I'm going to walk a mile in the morning.

I'm going to eat less, and I'm going to make my money behave, and I'm going to be in agreement with my spouse on all of these things.

And dude, that's going to change everything for you.

You'll change everything.

And by the way, God doesn't need your tithe.

He has you to tithe

because it's good for you to learn to be a giver because it's part of who you are.

You're made in his image and he's a giver.

And so he has us to tithe to remind us that part of our created being is one of generosity.

That's why we're tithing.

Not because he needs your money and not because he's going to punish you if you don't or you do tithe.

None of that.

But you're tithing for that reason to continue to flex the generosity muscle.

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Hillary is with us in Huntsville, Alabama.

Hi, Hillary.

Welcome to the Ramsey Show.

Hi, Dave.

Hi, John.

Thank you so much for taking my call.

Sure.

I'm a little nervous.

So, okay.

We are trying to figure out if we should

sell some properties to either pay off our mortgage or do an addition on our house.

Okay.

And we owe the mortgage is $3,500 a month.

And how what's the balance?

Properties

is $500,000.

Okay.

All right.

And

you said do some work or do an addition to the house, would you say?

Yeah, we so we sold our house in Huntsville four years ago.

And we moved into one of our properties.

We paid off five rental properties that we own when we did that.

We moved into one of those properties for about eight months, and then we found our forever home, I want to say.

I know you guys hate that term, but our dream home on Lake Gunnersville purchased that for $750,000.

And

so we're trying to figure out.

You owe $500,000 on a $750,000 purchase, and you want to renovate the home you just purchased?

We do.

Well, it's a big sixer-upper.

So we bought it.

It's on the lake.

It's on the water.

But yeah, it needs a lot of work.

What kind of work does it need?

Well, it's about 2,000 square feet.

We've got three kids.

It just, it's in 1960s, just

it needs an updated kitchen.

We're sharing a bathroom.

So we would just love to add some square footage.

Okay, and

the houses in the immediate proximity show for what?

Just two houses down.

A house sold for $1.7 million.

And it's a two-bedroom home.

It's a lake house.

So yeah.

Okay.

All right.

Okay.

So you're going to spend how much on all this renovation, do you think?

It's about $400,000 is what would have been quoted after our architectural drawings came through.

Okay.

And what are your rental properties all worth?

Well, our net worth, the only debt we have is in the house, and our net worth is about $2.5 million with the house included.

Okay, but you got $250,000 equity there, so that means you have rental properties worth $2.25, $2.25 million?

Well,

actually, so the rental properties are worth, yes, just right around $2 million.

Okay.

So sell a million dollars of them

and pay off your mortgage and fix up your house.

Okay, okay.

Do both.

Well, I didn't know if it would would just be a no-no to do the renovation

because we are worried about taking that monthly pay cut, I guess.

We bring in about $19,000 right now.

I'm not worried enough about it to not borrow $400,000.

Well,

we weren't going to do both.

We were just going to try to figure out, okay, should we sell a property or two to do the renovation?

But would that be smart to do that while we were doing it?

Well, I woke up in your shoes.

And, you know, you've already set the terms of surrender here.

The terms of surrender are: you bought a lake house, and you are going to renovate it.

So

those are givens.

That's not going to be undone.

There's nothing in this description that left any of that on the table to be undone.

Gonna drive you nuts, I'll just tell you, because you're spending almost as much on the stupid renovation as you did on the purchase of the house, which tells me you're going to be up a creek for a long period.

Drywall dust is your new breakfast.

Okay, so

yuck.

But anyway, you're doing this.

So I think you're selling a million dollars worth of property and you're paying off your mortgage and you're 100% debt-free and you fix up the house that you're living in.

It's why you guys have worked and done all this.

You didn't work and do all this to be landlords.

You worked and did all this to have a place to live that you like and have a good quality life.

And no, borrowing

or deciding not to borrow, deciding not to pay off my mortgage so that I can do the renovation is the same thing as borrowing to do the renovation.

Right, right.

You're just moving the pee under a different shell, zone.

So it doesn't do any good.

So yeah, you've you've,

if I'm in your shoes, I'm just going to sell a couple of these rental properties, you know, get down to a million dollars.

Then you're going to have million dollars worth of rentals.

You're going to have a million dollar house, a million two house, I hope, a million five house, I hope.

If you take $7.50 and you put $450 in it, I pray God it's worth a million five after you're done.

Well, the comps in the area for a finished home for the one seven for the one down the street.

Yeah, but

I mean, you better, you better be, you better be as nice as it is when you're done.

Right, right.

So,

yes.

And you guys have done enough construction that you have an idea what you're getting into, I hope.

Yes, we've actually fixed up all of our rental properties ourselves.

Okay.

Yeah, because this is going to be a this is not a small task you're taking.

And these are the kinds of things that people do where they bust budgets and they add and the scope creep as you go along.

And all of a sudden your 400 ends up being 600.

Okay.

So

you lay out a detailed construction budget and a detailed construction timeline and a detailed blueprint and you manage to those three pieces of paper and you do this renovation professionally on time, on budget, and to plan.

Don't make it up as you go because you're going to end up $600 or $700K in.

You know how that works, right?

And we do have, I forgot to mention, we've got $180,000 in savings as well.

Well, then

maybe you've got a $700,000 property to sell then.

I don't know what these properties are worth individually, but I would just look through and find enough of the rental properties with my $180,000 to pay off my mortgage and to do my renovation with cash.

Okay.

Because you're going to do both, and you might as well just do it.

And then use your increased cash flow.

because you don't have any

mortgage payments anymore to save up and start talking about about buying another property at some point if you want to move back into another piece of real estate at some point with cash.

But we're out of debt.

We're going to stay out of debt.

We're going to work our way.

That's the point of having a $2 million net worth is to get to get to do the stuff you want to do.

And so I, you know, I'm more concerned about my home.

At this point now, your home's going to be 1.7.

Yeah, your house is going to be a lot, very high percentage of your net worth.

It'll be over 50% of your net worth.

That's a little scary.

that's a little scary with your all's net worth so um you guys are heavily invested in this stinking link deal i'll just tell you it's um

it's it's it's getting close to being crazy um what would you like to see dave on a on a breakdown of somebody's net worth you got a three million dollar net worth i mean i don't want more than a million dollar house usually okay and she's gonna beat a million seven yeah

and she's you know and it's gonna the other million three is gonna be the real estate that's left

and the other stuff.

And so we've, we've plowed it all into

our single-family personal residence, which does not generate revenue.

Right.

And so you've got too much of your net worth tied up.

Now, if your net worth is a million dollars, 50% of your net worth going into your house is one thing.

Sure.

But when it's 3 million, it starts to be, eh, I don't know.

It doesn't feel great.

What is a rule of thumb for the higher your net worth, the smaller the percentage of your net worth

your home should be.

Is there a rule of thumb on how much you should expect to go over in a renovation this big?

I don't expect to go over a dime.

I lay out a detailed budget and a detailed plan.

I mean, I just built a several million dollar house last year and

it was 2% under budget, and it was two months early.

So, and I used a contractor.

He did a great job, but we managed to the budget and we managed to the schedule and we managed to the blueprint.

So, scope creep is, that's the decorator's thing.

We don't do that.

Listen, your home is your most expensive asset, and now you're ready to sell fast and for a lot of money.

But in this wackadoodle real estate market, one mistake could cost you tens of thousands of dollars.

Here's the deal: this ain't amateur hour.

You need a pro in your corner, someone who knows how to price your home right, market it well, and negotiate the best deal.

That's where a Ramsey trusted real estate agent comes in.

To find one near you, go to ramseysolutions.com/slash agent.

That's ramseysolutions.com/slash agent.

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Michael's with us in Louisville, Kentucky.

Hey, Michael, how are you?

I'm doing terrific, Dave.

I'm calling you guys today

because I've got a serious spending problem, and I hope you can help.

Okay.

Tell me about it.

Well, a little background.

I've lived a very frugal lifestyle, and I've accumulated a little wealth,

but I'm at the point in my life where I can afford to spend it, but I have emotionally a hard time buying things that go down in value like a rock.

And

I'm torn

because I'm

entertaining the idea of spending $100,000 for something with wheels.

Good.

How much money you got?

What's your net worth?

That's about $3 million.

Okay.

What are you talking about buying?

It's $100K?

A recreational vehicle.

Okay.

That's not much for an RV.

Well,

I currently have,

it would be $100,000 above what I currently have invested in recreational vehicles.

I have about $50,000 invested in recreational vehicles.

So you would trade in one of the, you trade in the $50,000 and put $100 cash with it?

Yes.

Okay, so you're going to buy an RV.

What are you going to do with the RV?

I'm going to travel.

Good, good.

Okay.

Are you single?

No, I have a wife, and

she wants, she likes to travel too.

Good.

But I have lived so long and using the

live on less than you make, Satan and

do that sort of thing.

Paid off, and you started you started with nothing.

You didn't inherit this money, right?

I inherited zero.

So you got three million dollars.

How old are you again?

I'm 78.

Okay.

All right, cool.

I started the day brandsy method about 10 years before you invented it.

Used to be called common sense, didn't it, Michael?

I just didn't have enough sense to make it into a radio show and become more wealthy.

All right, so the rule I use from an emotional standpoint or a spiritual standpoint, if I stand before God, am I being irresponsible with the money he entrusted me with?

Number one, that's the spiritual side.

Emotionally, how can I deal with this?

And it helps me if Sharon's wanting to go on a nice trip or we're wanting to make a purchase that is

that based on my old life,

it would have been very weird to purchase something like that.

For you, that's $150,000 RV.

It feels weird because it's not a muscle you've ever used before.

The one thing that's helped me with that,

I look at two things on the responsibility side.

Number one, is my generosity good?

Am I giving?

If I'm giving,

and we give

carefully a lot more than we spend.

So

we don't have to publish that from a PR standpoint or a publicity standpoint.

But if I'm giving and I'm being generous, then it's okay for me to also enjoy some of what God has blessed me with.

Okay?

And

the second rule I use is the burn the money in the middle of the floor rule.

Okay?

So if you took $100,000 and lit fire to to it, your net worth would be $2.9 million.

Your life would not change one ounce.

It doesn't change my life a bit.

That's exactly it.

And so that means it's not irresponsible.

Dave, I've never earned more than $50,000 a year in my life.

And yet I've accumulated.

You're amazing.

That's amazing.

Well, I always tried to buy things

that were not money pits.

And it worked for you.

It worked for you.

An RV is like a boat.

It's a money pit.

But, dude, you have earned it.

Get you and your wife a good RV and go for a ride, baby.

It's time to change.

How did I do it?

It's not a change.

You just look at it.

You say, if I burn this money in the middle of the floor, if this is the worst mistake I've ever made in my life, it does not change our life.

It doesn't change a thing.

And here's the thing I want you to do.

I want you to tonight, by yourself,

write Michael, 88-year-old Michael, a letter and say, dear Michael, I'm so glad as I wrap up my life that I've got all this money in the account and I've got no experiences to show for it.

And then I want you to write Michael another letter at 88 years old and say, dear Michael, me and my wife left no tread on the tires those last 10 years.

And you read both of them to her and then that make, you'll be at the at the dealer in the morning

and you'll be on the way to Kentucky tomorrow evening.

Get in that RV and go have an adventure, my brother.

Yeah, proud of you.

Very well done, sir.

And for the rest of you listening, that is a completely different conversation.

Than, well, I'm going to live while I can, and I'm going to spend while I'm young.

I don't want to get old.

No, that's someone who is spending, they're burning so much money in the middle of the floor that it is affecting their life.

You know, they're spending money on travel that they don't have.

They're spending money on cars that they don't have.

They're spending money on things they don't have.

The difference is Michael has the money.

The thing Michael is short on is time.

Go.

Yeah, go do it.

Go do it.

Go do it while you can.

And, you know, run it, baby.

Run the gauntlet on the thing.

Now,

but, but,

and so that is not the same advice that I would give to a 22-year-old who's broke.

Right.

Because it's not the same.

You know, oh, no, live your life, enjoy your life.

That's an immature person making an excuse for buying crap they can't afford or doing things they can't afford to do.

Right.

And that's a completely different conversation, although it sounds like the same result, but it's not.

It's a completely different direction.

That's what we're doing.

So

the point is, is that

he's right, though.

We run into this with folks who have built a good net worth very often.

Your spending muscle atrophies because you don't use it.

You never spend any money.

And so then when you do try to spend money, it's hard emotionally.

It strains you.

And that's,

he's being honest.

He wasn't making up a joke.

That was a true thing.

And he's never made more than $50,000.

It's $3 million

at 78 years old.

So tell me that it can't be done.

Of course, it can be done.

It, this thing called success, this thing called wealth building.

It can be done.

And so,

and the odd thing is when

we did that millionaire study that we talk about in Baby Steps Millionaire's book, that out of the 10,000 millionaires that we studied, one-third of them, which was surprising to me, have never had an income over $100,000.

That really shocks me, too.

I would have guessed,

you know, some high percentage, 50%, never had an income over $200,000.

I would have guessed that.

But not one-third never made in their working life $100,000.

And yet

they're millionaires.

Diligence.

It's a steady.

It's a steadiness.

The steadiness.

Time and consistency.

Time and consistency.

This is where money comes from.

That's where health comes from.

That's where weight loss comes from.

That's That's where good marriages come from.

Just you mentioned clear earlier on atomic habits and our buddy James.

And he says it's, you know, doing the little thing every day.

Do it every day.

The cumulative effect of that is a lot more than doing a big thing once occasionally.

That's right.

Yeah.

And that's true in investing.

It's true with relationships.

It's true with exercise.

Yeah.

It's like you hear that, like, hey, I bought her a whole bunch of flowers.

Man, every day, did you just help with the dishes?

Just do that.

Just do that over and over and over and over.

Shut up, John.

And And over and over.

I did.

I did last night.

I looked at the dishes last night.

He did.

I really did.

I didn't a long time ago, but now I do.

Now I do.

Our scripture of the day, Galatians 6, 4 through 5, each one should test their own actions, then they can take pride in themselves alone without comparing themselves to someone else, for each one should carry their own load.

Jordan Peterson said, Do only those things that you could speak of with honor.

That doesn't even sound like him, but I mean, not to say he wouldn't say something like that, but he, that's just an that's a cool quote.

I like it, I like that one.

That's a great quote.

Brianna is with us in Dallas.

Hey, Brianna, welcome to the Ramsey Show.

Hi, thank you so much for taking my call.

Sure, what's up?

So,

I just need some advice because about, well, me and my husband had a daughter about 10 months ago now.

Yay.

And he lost his job around the same time.

Wow.

And so it's just been me,

single income, and it's not at all what we expected going into.

He's not gotten a job in seven months?

Right.

Why?

I don't really know.

I mean, he has a bachelor's degree.

Doesn't matter.

Why isn't he throwing boxes at Walmart?

So right now he is doing like tasker jobs, so like doing housework for people.

But that's kind of the only job that he's doing.

What's he making?

What does he make?

Oh, doing that.

He makes probably like on a good day about $500.

A day?

okay,

but it's not every day.

It's like

it's like $50 an hour for 10 hours work.

Yes, I think he charges $35

an hour.

Is he working 40 hours?

Making $35 an hour?

So maybe not $500.

Maybe closer to like $5.

I'm sorry.

It's $500 a week is basically what he brings up.

So he's not working 40 hours?

No,

it's basically like people sign up for what they're doing I understand what it is but he's not working 40 hours why no no sir

forgive 40 hours he's not working 100

with supporting him like trying to

do more I guess I don't need to support him he needs to get off his butt and go why does he need support

so what was he doing that he got fired from

So he was a child,

a children's director at a church that just didn't work out.

Like, he's not really good at the admin side of things.

Okay, so

what is he going to do with his life and when is he going to get his income up?

That's your all's problem, is your husband is not working.

Why?

And how are we going to fix that?

That's what we come down to in this conversation.

Does that make any sense at all?

Your main breadwinner at this point is not earning much money and doesn't have a plan to.

It doesn't sound like that's scaring me.

Yeah, well, I've always been the bigger income earner.

I'm a nurse, so I have always been the breadwinner in a sense.

So we've been able to make it, but we just can't pay off our debts

because he's not working

working.

Why are you defending him so much?

Why are you defending him?

You're talking to two husbands with kids and spouses who believe in hard work all the time.

Why are you defending him?

I'm just curious.

I mean, he's not on here to defend himself.

So,

on behalf of husbands and fathers everywhere, he needs to go get two jobs, if not three,

and begin to scratch and claw his way back.

Because he's lost faith in himself.

He's lost trust in himself.

He is pinned around.

He's sitting around looking at the app, waiting on somebody to task him to put in a dishwasher.

My 15-year-old son made more money than that this summer cleaning horse stalls with a shovel.

Like, it's about getting out there and taking care of his baby girl and honoring his family.

I mean, it's that simple.

And Dave and I are both guys who follow dreams too, but we also had work day jobs when we were first starting.

That's just the nature of it.

So, what I'm going to do is, I'm going to send you a copy of Ken Coleman's book, The Proximity Principle.

I'm also going to send you a copy of Finding the Work You're Wired to Do for Him.

I want him to take that assessment that's in there and develop a game plan to go be somebody.

I also want to send you economic

building an an unanxious life.

Y'all,

I'll say it this way: you're enabling this stuff.

If you keep apologizing for him and keep trying to support him and pat him on the back, seven months later, that shame thing is getting deeper and deeper and deeper.

I want y'all to read that book together, too.

There's three of them we'll send you.

Yeah, we're going to load you up and try to help you get going.

But the answer to your math equation is more income, and it's sitting in front of you looking at an app, waiting on someone to task him to do a dishwasher.

And he's not even doing a lot of that.

So there's lots of things to do in your wonderful city of Dallas that people will pay you for.

And they're not necessarily what you want to do right then, but you do what you got to do until you don't got to do it no more.

And you just push and push.

And

yeah,

I would imagine that he's anxious.

And I'll help you with this.

His anxiety will go down as his workload goes up.

Yes, and his shame and his that low-level dysthymia, that depressive feeling, I don't, I don't know, and I don't, that will go away as he begins to walk taller, that he is proving to himself that he can work hard.

And by the way, people like to do the counselory part, but they don't like to take notes.

They like to do the ministry play and let's think about things, but they don't like doing the administrative stuff.

That's just part of, that's just a job.

It's a job, right?

Like, and so he has to do things he doesn't like.

And that's the core here, man.

He's got to go work.

And all work has hard parts of the job that's not fun, no matter even this job that we have.

And it's a blast, but there's also parts of it that are hard that I don't like to do, that I don't want to do, but that's part of the job.

Every job has that, and he's going to have to get over himself and then get after it and go get a job, get multiple jobs, and get his confidence back.

And then he can start looking towards what do we actually want to build together.

But man, oh man, oh man.

Yeah.

Dave, that's like the second or third call we've taken today.

Yeah, there's a manhood crisis.

There's a bad manhood crisis.

And And it's just,

I don't know what it is.

And

it's happening, but it's...

I mean, it's multi-layered and multi-tiered, but

there's a lot underlying all of these things.

And there's different situations, obviously, that we're talking to, but it still comes down to my grandmother used to say there's a great place to go when you're broke to work.

Right.

And the first thing you do is you get up and you leave the cave.

You kill something and you drag it home.

We will discuss living dreams and self-actualizing and maximizing your potential potential and putting right tools in your belt and education and all those things later.

Right now, let's go about the business of eating.

And let me say this.

Let me own this.

On behalf of the mental health practitioners in the United States, we sold everybody this bill of goods, which is

the key to being well and whole and right with yourself in a relationship was to get all the right thoughts in the right order.

And if you just sit around and think about the next thing and think about it and think about it and think about it, then suddenly everything becomes clear.

And that's just not how it works.

You have to take action on things.

And so, if you sit around waiting for this job to materialize in your mind, waiting for this plan to, that's just not how it works.

You get out there and start working, and you start figuring out what part about this job I'm good at, I'm not good at, I like, don't like.

I'm going to take another job and another job.

And it begins to distill down for you what you are fully created to go do.

And then you get really good at that thing, and then you become passionate about it.

But this idea that I'm, I don't know, man, it's just ruining families across the country.

It's making it.

It's the Belgian prosper.

Gosh, just keep showing not the contemplative.

There you go.

And even the contemplatives, even the monks had daily ritual practices that got unworked.

It's a thing they did.

Yeah.

Right?

Absolutely.

You can't just sit here and think your way to these solutions.

You've got to get out there and get after it.

If you feel stuck, go get a job.

Go to a gym.

Go for a walk.

Go do things.

And then your thoughts begin to work themselves out.

Well, and you know, I'm singing to the choir here, but the the data also says that the chemicals are released, the endorphins are released that fight back depression, that fight back the blues when you are engaged physically into doing something, when you're mentally engaged into doing something.

And so when you step into something,

all of the condemnation and the shame, bad tapes playing in your head, they start to run out because you're too tired to think about it.

You're focused on a thing.

Yeah.

And like a guy I used to work for said, he said, you won't die of hard work.

Right before you die, you'll pass out.

That puts us hour of the Ramsey Show in the books.

We'll be back with you before you know it.

In the meantime, remember, there's ultimately only one way to financial peace, and that's to walk daily with the Prince of Peace, Christ Jesus.