It’s Time To Stop Surviving And Start Winning With Money

Brought to you by the Every Dollar app.

Start budgeting for free today.

Normal is broke, and common sense is weird.

So, we're here to help you transform your life.

From the Ramsey Network and the Fairwinds Credit Union Studio, this is the Ramsey Show.

I'm Ramsey personality George Campbell, joined by Jade Warshaw, and we're here to take your call.

888-825-5225.

Joy kicks us off in Nashville right down the road.

What's going on, Joy?

Hi, yes.

I'm out here in Nashville.

My name is Joy, and I'm going through a complete reset in my early 30s.

I have three children, and I'm trying to figure out how to restart financially after having owned a multi-million dollar company and going through a divorce.

So I think that that's the hardest thing that I'm working through right now.

Wow.

Yeah, that's enough hard things.

I think we're good on that.

So where does this stand?

Is the divorce finalized?

No, it started back in June.

I had to leave because abuse and control.

So I left for a week and it kind of started to snowball worse.

And this is a company that we built together.

And then he just kind of started taking over everything and then started saying that I embezzled from him and that's why he has to do it.

So are there lawyers involved now?

What's going on?

There are lawyers involved.

He has two and I I have one.

We don't even hit mediation until February.

And right now, I just got assigned very, very little pay from him until we can kind of, everything can go out.

But like I said, I went from a lot of money down to just nothing.

Like I've had to rebuild my own.

I don't even have anything.

I had to just work my way into what I have.

And I recently just got my first rental.

I've always bought homes.

So it's just like I'm in the middle of a serious, wow, what do I do?

But I'm trying my best because I also homeschool my children.

So the court didn't issue you to have nothing.

Has he just essentially locked you out of all of the money?

Is that what's taking place?

That's correct.

And the attorneys have done nothing to reverse any of this?

There hasn't.

We haven't gotten a mediation, and we have 59 counts of contempt of court on his side.

But it's just been a slow process because the goal is really custody with the children at this point.

And right now I'm primary, and he gets a couple days a week.

But I think right now I'm being awarded $2,500 a month for just custody issues until we can even figure that out, which is very little to live on.

Sure.

What were you used to living on?

$20,000.

A month.

Okay.

Yes.

Yes, ma'am.

Okay.

And you're still both a part of this company that's still running?

My name is 50% on it.

It's an LLC.

It's a manufacturing company.

Okay.

Yes.

That's correct.

And I'm not working it now.

I got locked out.

I can't even get unemployment because he won't get me unemployed.

What do you mean you got locked out?

I don't understand how that's possible.

But he is claiming that I embezzled and he is able to take control of the company because I left the home because of the alleged abuse.

And I took off for a week and it just like I said.

So no more direct deposit, paychecks, nothing.

Correct, nothing.

He started taking it into his account.

Who is saying that, though?

Is it just him or are your lawyers agreeing?

Like,

who is corroborating this?

Is this just his story and he's doing it and you're not allowed in?

Or are lawyers saying yes?

Okay, so can you go to your lawyer and say, hey, I'm 50% of this company.

I

am being locked out?

What happens when you do that?

We have the paperwork.

We've tried to show it in court, but court keeps saying we're going to try this in the divorce hearing.

We're going to try this in the divorce hearing.

Okay, when is the divorce hearing?

We don't even have one set because of mediation.

They want us to get to mediation for which is

February?

Correct.

So how are you supposed to float yourself if he's locked you out of your own paycheck and is giving you two grand a month?

I am an entrepreneur by heart.

So I started doing piano lessons, doing baked goods.

That's great.

But you're not going to be able to do that.

My point is you shouldn't.

That's good that you're doing that, but I want you to push on this really hard because February is a long way from now.

And that's not even, like you said, that's not even the hearing.

That's just for mediation to begin, right?

Yeah, your attorney sucks if this is the status quo.

You need somebody else.

I don't know what to say about any of that.

I've really been pushing for this, but they keep saying my priority obviously is to have the kids.

It is, but it shouldn't be at the, you haven't done anything wrong.

So it shouldn't be at the detriment of

you not earning your income.

I mean, obviously, if you're not working anymore, you're no longer earning an income, but figuring out how that works with you being part owner of the company is the part that, because why can't you lock him out is all I'm saying.

Like, if you're 50-50, you have just as much power as he has.

So why is he holding, do you not have keys to the company?

Do you not have, like, I just am trying to understand

how that balance of power happened.

So on, on paper, I'm 50% legal owner of it,

but you have to go through a court process.

Like anybody can accuse you of anything.

Sure.

So he was able to lock me out of the building, took all the money out of the account,

and he was just able to just block me from any system that I ever created.

We get to court.

The court says, well, we can try this in divorce.

Our focus is on the children.

There's really nothing that we can do until y'all get to divorce court.

And we've gone to the judge multiple times on this, and the judge is saying the exact same thing.

You're just going to have to pay her this in the meantime.

And I wish I could understand that more, but that's what I keep getting told.

Understood.

Okay.

So

how can we help you today?

Well, I guess my question is, I'm going to have to try to find a path of not being able to work with him.

That's just not possible at this moment.

And in the future, it's not going to be possible.

I guess

I don't know how to move forward

because

I don't even know if I ask for a portion of the company monthly.

I know he's not going to be able to pay for it.

Pay me outright for the 50% of the money.

Yeah, it'll likely be some kind of structured payout over time to get profits of the company until you're paid up to 50% of the value that you guys guys all decide on with the lawyers and whoever else is involved.

But for now, we just need a plan to like survive right now.

So you are in a rental, you have the kids a majority of the time, and you have $2,500 coming in from him plus whatever you can make on the side.

Yes, so it ends up being right around $5,000, which I've been able to do, but it's still, I'm just struggling.

I'm struggling with that.

You have your own bank accounts now?

You've separated from him completely on that side?

I've had to do all complete separation.

He's not even allowed to contact me.

And how much are you paying for the rental out of the $5,000?

$17.50,000, which is really high for me.

And then when you do your budget, is there any margin whatsoever?

No.

Okay.

There's no margin.

Do you have any debt that you're on the hook for that you feel like, hey, this is what's eating my lunch right now?

Or is it simply the fact that

you know, I'm on a shoestring budget and this just really sucks right now?

What's the thing that's like eating your lunch right now?

I have

no debt outside of the business.

The court has told him he has to cover everything.

But between the mortgage, homeschooling, my children,

like my Tahoe is a 21 Tahoe.

It's paid for.

But I'm driving

30 minutes, four times a week to meet up with him back and forth.

That gas is so expensive.

Can you sell the house that you're not living in?

That's the problem.

He has the house too.

I left.

That's the problem with divorce.

But is your name on it?

It is.

Okay.

So you're going to have to force the sale of the house as part of this divorce.

And that's again

something for your attorney to fight for.

Yes.

And the judge has told him he needs to do it.

Well, he is delaying the process and they can delay the process in a $2 million house.

Sure.

And

that's not, I'm not even going to be able to look at that until probably a year, year down the road.

Right, right.

That's going to be a ways down the line.

I'm not convinced that your lawyer is great.

I feel like you're at the disadvantage when you you shouldn't be.

This is the guy that was abusive, and this is the guy that you had to flee from.

So, find you an attorney that understands that you're the one with the upper hand, not him.

And that's the best advice I can give you.

Luckily, nothing's on fire financially.

You're just gonna have to keep going until the divorce proceedings.

Cover your four walls, and if you can't pay the mortgage on the house he's living in, tough cookies.

Hey guys, it's open enrollment time for health insurance.

And if you have ever felt overwhelmed trying to figure out your healthcare costs, you are not alone.

For a lot of families, healthcare is one of the biggest line items in the budget, and it gets more confusing every year.

But you don't have to settle.

Christian Healthcare Ministries is a biblical and budget-friendly alternative to health insurance, and I am proud to recommend them.

With CHM, you are joining a community of believers who actually help share each other's medical bills.

Yeah, it's true.

Members have shared over $12 billion in healthcare costs since CHM started nearly 45 years ago.

And it's simple.

You choose your provider with no network limits.

You submit your eligible bills online and other members help share your expenses.

CHM has program options for every stage of life, whether you're single, self-employed, or raising a family.

Y'all, open enrollment has a lot of people scrambling right now.

But CHM lets you join anytime.

So go to chministries.org/slash budget to check them out.

That's chministries.org/slash budget.

John is with us up next in Bowling Green.

What's going on, John?

Hey, guys, how are you?

Great.

How can we help today?

Okay, so we've been in the baby steps for two years.

We started out with $268,000 in debt.

Half of that

V we bought several years ago

before we started listening to y'all.

We've been trying to sell it, but over the last three years, I've had nine surgeries and been

pretty sick.

Wow.

This morning, my neighbor passed away.

I finally got a clean bill of health.

I'm just leaving the doctor.

And my wife and I want to travel a little bit.

But my question is, is it okay to be the slowest or the next of the slowest gazelle?

for the next two years while we finish up paying off so we can travel and enjoy life?

Last three years has been cultivated.

Yeah, you've been through it, man.

Hey, can you speak directly into your phone?

We're having a hard time hearing you.

Oh, I'm sorry.

Is that better?

Not much, but we'll try our best.

Okay, so you've had a lot of life happen, nine surgeries, three years, big pile of debt.

Where does the debt stand today?

What's the total balance of the consumer debt?

The total balance of the consumer debt is $218,460.

Okay, so you knocked out 50K in two years?

Is that right?

A little over 50K, yeah.

Okay, so based on that math, you said there's two years to go.

How is the math tracking on the

I'm just going by what's

on my

Every Dollar app?

Now, all of the debt will be,

it'll be three years, but we're hoping that half of the debt right now is the RV.

And we're hoping to sell the RV.

That's based on selling the RV.

Yes.

Okay, that makes more sense.

To sell the RV.

And why isn't it selling?

Just people aren't in the market for a used RV at that price?

Yeah,

it's a

middle of the market diesel pusher.

It's not high and it's not low end.

What do you have it listed for?

Well, we have it listed for $125,000 and it puts private sale at $160,000.

So that's what we owe on is $120,000.

So we're trying to just get out from under it.

And it's been on the market for a year?

How long?

Yeah.

Something's wrong.

Have you, is this like a consignment where someone else is selling it for you?

Or are you just doing this on your own?

No, we're doing it on our own through

online ads and it's been the RV Trader and

all that kind of stuff.

Man.

So if you do that, that'll clear half your debt, is what you're saying.

Yeah, that'll, yeah, that'll clear 120,000 of that debt.

That makes more sense.

Okay, so you're wanting to know if you could slow down and travel and enjoy life a bit more.

And it's because of the health scares, the neighbor passes away, and you're sort of in this like, YOLO, life is short.

Is this worth it for three years, knowing we don't know how much time we have left on this earth?

Right.

How old are you and your wife?

I'm 62.

My wife is 61.

Okay.

And how's your wife's health?

She's great health.

I hear what you're saying.

I understand the logic of what you're wanting to do.

I'm just worried that you're going to continue to kick this can down the road and possibly add more debt to it.

It's very hard to

start the lifestyle you're wanting to start and then stop it suddenly to clean up this mess, right?

You're wanting to travel the world, have a great time, have a, you know, that, that peaceful, easy feeling, but that's gonna be tough to do with this debt laying around.

I'd rather you take some time and really pay this off.

And so that when you do go travel, you really

are enjoying it.

There's not this kind of monster in the closet waiting for you when you get home.

And you'd said yourself you have a clean bill of health.

So I'd really be challenging the fears that are in your mind about what could happen in the future instead of assuming I'm going to to get sick again or something else bad is going to happen or da da da da da da.

The truth is, okay, you do have a clean bill of health.

The truth today is that your wife is healthy.

And the truth today is that you've got a pile of debt sitting here that

you've had a lifetime to clean up.

And now you're realizing it, oh man, I do need to clean this up.

So

I would take that hint and not spend another day like this.

I would go headstrong into it.

Okay.

At the end of the day,

we don't want to travel the world.

We just want to

go for two or three day overnights and take our RV.

And what's that going to cost?

What's it going to cost?

It's about $200 a weekend.

Oh, I mean, it's not a lot of money, truly.

I mean, that's like fun money for a lot of people.

So if you wanted to take a $200 weekend trip, that's fine.

But I think the idea of, well, we'll do it another weekend, another weekend, and we'll get a little lackadaisical over here.

I think it's just a slippery slope.

It's hard to be really intense while knowing that's also happening on the side.

There's just a level of scorched earth, come hell or high water, we're getting out of this debt.

And in your 60s, to still be carrying this debt your whole adult life, that's what worries me.

Because truthfully, there's more of a chance that something could happen to you.

And now your wife is left carrying this pile of debt to deal with while grieving your loss.

So we also have to think about reality on top of the like, well, we don't know how much time we have, so let's just live and do the baby steps at our leisure.

Yeah.

You know, I like the idea of you doing something to celebrate your clean bill of health.

I think that that's great.

Um, and I'm not mad at that.

So, if you did, if you're like, listen, I've been in and out of the hospital, it's finally over.

My wife and I were taking a trip to celebrate.

I have no problem with that as a form of a lifestyle over, you know, and doing that at the detriment of not paying off your debt.

I would not do that as a lifestyle, if that makes sense.

And think about it: 200 bucks is not going to delay your debt-free journey a whole lot.

No, it's not.

200 bucks every month or more,

now we're talking about a serious delay.

And so I would have you crunch the numbers.

And here's what I do, John, to make myself justify things like this.

I'm going to go, okay, where can I find $200 that I haven't found yet?

I'm willing to work extra or do a side household to come up with that $200 that wasn't going to come from our debt payoff journey.

That is a way I would couch it to make sure that this doesn't delay the journey as well.

Okay, yeah, we don't want to take away any money that we're using to pay the debt of pet snowball.

We want to find it someplace else.

So I hear what you're saying.

And then hopefully we can get this RV listed.

I might look into some other options like consignment or something to have someone else list it professionally and to handle it and handle the test drives and the paperwork.

Even if it costs you a little bit, you might be able to get more for it

doing it that way.

And they might, you know, get professional photos instead of taking an iPhone picture and listing it on Facebook.

I think there might be other avenues to get this thing sold.

So, best of luck to you.

Ethan's up next in Nashville.

What's going on, Ethan?

Get right to the question.

We're up against the clock.

Hey, how are we doing?

Great.

Good.

So, I am 25.

I live in Nashville here, yes.

And I am just so thrilled to announce that I have completed Vegas Step 3.

Good.

Way to go.

A big milestone for me.

I've never been super great with money, but

I've kind of like following this system.

So I'm to the point now where four, five, and six are my next approach.

And if I look at five and six, saving for kids' college, paying off the mortgage early, I feel like these don't directly apply to me because I'm younger and I'm less established.

I don't have it.

I'm not married.

I don't have any kids.

I've never bought a house before.

So I'm curious, you know, what can I do with my money?

Outside of those things?

What are the next steps for me in particular?

Obviously, you know, investing some is going to be be good yeah but you need to hit that 15

so for you baby step four still applies obviously if you have four five and six to do you do them simultaneously but for you that's not the case you'll just do baby step four you'll invest 15

into good growth stock mutual funds you can either do that through a job if your job has maybe a roth 401k if not you could invest it into a you know roth ira and do that every single year and then if you have money left yeah add it to your budget some of it might be fun money some of it might might be additional savings because one day you are going to want to buy a house, Ethan.

And when that day comes, saving up, you know, a down payment, 20% if you can get it, whatever is going to keep that home less than 25% of your family.

Six figures in the Nashville area.

Exactly.

You got plenty of work to do just in baby steps, what we call 3B, saving the down payment, and four, investing.

So yeah, blessing to have that time.

15% and then stack the rest in a high-yield savings account for that house in the next few years if you can make it happen.

And then, like Jade said, enjoy some of it too, man.

You're young.

Y'all, do you want to know a game changer for your grocery budget?

Start your weekly shopping at Aldi.

Seriously, by making Aldi your first stop, you can easily check off your family favorites.

From fresh organic produce to grass-fed ground beef, marinated, ready-to-cooked chicken breasts, and high-quality dairy products.

You'll be able to make incredible meals while keeping your budget on track.

So, no overpriced gimmicks or membership fees here.

Now, real families like yours are saving up to $4,000 a year just by making Aldi their go-to grocery store every week.

Find a store near you at Aldi.us.

That's A-L-D-I.us.

Savings based on regional analysis of Aldi versus select competitors.

Prices may vary by location, product availability, and the market.

Rebecca is up next in Boston.

What's going on, Rebecca?

How can we help today?

Hi, guys.

Thanks for my call.

Sure.

Speak directly into your phone.

Can you hear me?

Yes, that's better.

Okay.

So my husband and I bought a house earlier this year.

We actually moved in a week after having our first baby.

For religious and social reasons, we wanted to be in a specific city, but because it was really expensive, we kind of bought in the outskirts of the city.

It wasn't the most reasonable location, but we said, you know, for seven to ten years, we'll live here, we'll build equity, we'll save more money, and then we'll go elsewhere.

About two months after we moved into the house, we found out that that the church across the street, the pastor, has actually been trying to open a homeless shelter in the plot of land that the church owns next to the church.

There were government officials that were trying to fight it, and it kind of explained to the pastor that, you know, it's a residential area, there's a lot of families, we have children.

And he expressed that he was so bad with it and that this was an interesting case.

Right now, the project.

I'm still having a hard time hearing you, Rebecca.

Can you hear me now?

It's coming in now.

Let's try again.

Okay,

what about now?

Can you hear me?

Yeah, that's better.

That's better.

Oh, okay.

Did I say from the beginning?

No.

No, no, we got you.

Oh, okay.

So now it's currently under an audit.

So we're kind of in the situation where we don't know what to do.

Because we thought we were going to be in this house for seven to ten years, we parted about $40,000 of work into it.

When we found out about all of this, we did a little bit of research and we actually put the house on the market, but we had to include that $40,000 of work because we didn't want to lose money on the house.

There were no hits on it because we knew that it was overpriced, given the fact that we put money into it.

So now we're kind of in the situation where if we sell the house, we really wouldn't be able to afford anything else because everything else is double the price of what we bought.

But are we supposed to sell to get out now before the house potentially depreciates if there is a shelter across the street?

You know, we wouldn't really want to raise our family right across from there.

Do we sell it even at a loss to prevent further loss, or are we supposed to kind of stick it out and see what happens?

When will you know?

When will whatever city ordinance or whatever is going through, when will you know if this can happen or it's not going to happen?

What's the timeline there?

So nobody's been giving us a straight answer.

We've been having a lot of back and forth.

Some people say, oh, the audit could take a year.

Some people say it could take six months.

We're kind of like in this window.

We don't really know.

No one's really giving us an answer.

I mean, part of me,

it's one of those things.

It could go either way.

I don't think that you're going to be able to get the 40,000 back.

I think if you guys choose to move,

especially sooner than later, I think that's going to be a pill that you're probably going to have to swallow.

And I hate that for you because $40,000 is a lot of money.

But I do sympathize with you because I am thinking about that.

You know, once if that happens,

do a little due diligence and find out if what the timeline could look like.

Because obviously people have to okay this.

And then it's like, what must be true from then on?

And I would go over to the church and I would just level with whoever's

and I'd say, hey,

yeah, but in a non-like combative way, just say, hey, we're, we're trying to work with what might happen here.

Once this gets approved, how long until people will start coming here?

And how long until your doors are going to open?

We're just trying to do some family planning here.

And do they tell you anything?

So yeah, so I sat and they said that he, I spoke to the pastor directly and he told me that it will take about two to three years for them to build the facility.

And then he expects the people to come right in after.

The issue is that once they start building and people know about it, then nobody's going to want to buy the house anyways.

That is all close.

I see, I see.

What have your neighbors

been saying about this?

Is there kind of a community

effort?

Right.

People are like calling the government officials, but like, as I said,

it seems like there were some under-the-table situations going on.

Really, nobody really knows exactly, but people are kind of just saying we can't really afford to go anywhere else.

So, like, we kind of have to wait and see.

But I kept telling my husband, like, if we take the wait and see approach, then we're going to be the people that are stuck not having a place to go.

Like, what are we supposed to do?

Have, have you, listen, there's a couple of ways you can go here.

You could, yeah, tomorrow put the house up for 40,000 less and high tail it out of there.

Or you could say, I really care about this neighborhood.

I really care about what's going on here.

I'm going to pull my neighbors together.

We're all going to go down to the church together and say, we love what you're trying to do.

We just wish you could do it not here.

Is there like, and start opening up the lines of conversation?

Has anybody tried that?

Talking to these people?

That's been tried.

Like community liaisons have tried.

And the pastor is very insistent on the fact that he owns this pot of land and he wants this to go there.

He has whatever deal he has.

And

this is his plan.

So I just, I guess, I don't know.

We're so lost here.

Well, there's no crystal ball to say, hey, if this thing is well run, the home prices may rebound.

We just don't know.

And so I don't think we can say across the board, if there's a homeless shelter in any residential area, the market tanks there forever.

And so I want you to get some facts around this.

I would have your real estate agent actually pull comps in areas where there's a homeless shelter near residential homes and then track it to see what happened with the home prices there.

Did they stabilize?

Did they rebound depending on the shelter in the area?

That'll actually help you get some facts because right now it's just all emotion and rage.

And so, I want, I think that'll help just go, okay, there's not a worst case scenario.

The market's going to

continue to increase.

So, if we stick around for five years, we'll probably get our 40,000 back and be able to sell for what we paid for it or a little more.

Versus no matter what, if we stay, it's going to be terrible.

Okay.

And if we decide to go, how much of a mistake is it to go back to renting?

I don't think it's a mistake.

I think that we'll call that a stupid tax that was out of your control.

Just we had to pay, you know, it costs us 30, you know, because you're going to pay realtor fees on the back end of this and closing costs just to get out of this.

On top of the lost, you know, missed ROI of this, all the renovations.

So, yeah, it might cost you guys a pretty penny and might slow down your next home buying purchase.

But if it's gonna, if it's gonna cause you to lose your peace for the next 40 years,

then I don't think it's worth it.

I think you should get out now.

And even though we want to be able to necessarily save as fast as the houses would appreciate in this specific community.

I think that's what you guys have to decide.

I mean, there's not a

there's not a right or wrong answer here.

The answer is what is it?

Because you called in and said, I don't want to live across from a homeless shelter.

So if you don't, then you need to decide, okay,

what are we willing to risk on the timeline here?

Do we want to hold on to this a little bit longer, say another year?

Do we think that's too risky?

Are we starting, is the word starting to get out on the street that this is happening and we're getting, you know,

you're going to have a better

understanding of what's taking place in your community than George and I are.

But just understand there's not a wrong or right answer here.

You get to decide who you, where you're going to live and you get to decide how big of a problem this is going to be for you.

I'm just sitting here thinking about it and I'm like, is there any way that this could be a really nice facility and all the kind of things that you're concerned about really be contained?

And I'm having a hard time seeing how that could be.

Yeah, and that's where the research is going to help you.

There's lots of homeless shelters in Boston.

That's where I'm from.

And so I would go, what is the real estate market like around those shelters?

And now we can see, okay, it stabilizes.

Yeah, it goes down for a little bit.

Nobody loves it during construction.

But then once things are up and running, and if it's run smoothly, things bounce back.

That would give me some peace to go, all right, we're going to stick around for five years and see how this shakes out.

And then what about like the safety piece of just not wanting to live there?

I guess that's our only point.

That's my point.

That's you're exactly saying my point, Rebecca, is if that's messing with your piece and you're saying, I don't want to live here, you can move.

And just understand that you're going to take a financial hit.

And to your point, it could take you longer to buy again.

Like that is going to set your timeline back.

It's not saying that you're making a bad choice or a dumb choice or anything like that.

It's just, I am making a calculated choice and I understand that when I do this, this is the hit that I'm going to take financially.

This is the hit to my timeline it's going to take.

It sucked that this happened, but here we are dealing with it.

Right.

You guys should be in my shoes.

I think I'd move.

Really?

I'm not saying I'd move today, but I'd be watching.

And if I see that this is seeming like it's going to happen, I'd probably try to get out of there.

That's just me.

You were able to get out.

I have two young kids.

No matter what, whoever is going to move there is probably going to find out this project is going to be happening in the foreseeable future.

So they either go, yawn, okay, we'll deal with that, not a big deal, or they get spooked by it.

And so someone's going to want to buy a house in the Boston area, regardless of what it's near.

That's just how it is in a very, you know, populated metro like Boston.

Can you tell us what area this is?

I don't want to get too specific on that.

You said it's pretty far out, though.

Like, is it in city limits?

Yeah.

Okay.

Okay.

Yeah.

I mean, it's if you're right across the street, if it's the next house over or is it around the block, like all that matters.

If it was right across my, from my front door, I'd be like, Yeah, if I'm on the front porch staring at it, that's different.

So, again, I would do all the research before making any decision if I was in your shoes.

And then I would have a conversation with my wife.

We would be aligned and then we would do it, regardless of the financial implications.

We'd go, all right, this is what it's costing us to make this move.

So it's a tough battle.

Hey, quick reality check.

AI isn't just for sci-fi nerds and Silicon Valley tech bros anymore.

It's the new weapon of choice for every scammer with fast Wi-Fi and bad intentions.

Identity thieves could be using AI right now to steal your info in ways that would have sounded impossible just five years ago.

We're talking voice cloning, deep fake videos, filing bogus tax returns, draining your bank and retirement accounts, and even home title fraud.

And it can happen fast, so most people don't find out until it's too late.

So as someone who has had his identity stolen before, I don't mess around.

I use Xander ID theft protection because it keeps up with today's threats without the crazy price tag other companies charge.

You get real-time monitoring across your whole financial and digital life.

And if something does go down, they'll give you the full white glove treatment, like 24-7 restoration services by pros based in the US and up to $2 million in stolen funds and expense coverage.

So, you don't need to live in fear, but you do need to be smart about protecting your identity from thieves.

So, go to xander.com or call 800-356-4282 and get yourself protected today.

The all-new Every Dollar is here.

And now it's way more than just our world-class budgeting app.

We've got advanced features to help you make faster progress with your money.

And the average person finds thousands of dollars in margin in just the first 15 minutes.

So check it out.

Start Every Dollar for free today.

Get it in the App Store or Google Play.

Henry is in Phoenix, Arizona, up next.

What's going on, Henry?

Welcome to the the show.

Hey, guys.

Thanks for having me.

Absolutely.

What's your question?

Hey, my question, I'm just getting started with baby step number two.

So looking forward to all the pain and stuff that Dave talked about.

I guess my question is around staying motivated as you're going through this baby step,

especially with my situation, just there's external

circumstances and stuff like that that are pretty demotivating.

Like what?

My wife had intrusive brain surgery back in the end of 2021 that left her disabled.

And

it kind of took away all of our hopes and dreams of our future life together and stuff like that.

So it's kind of like part of us is wondering like, why even, you know, go through the baby steps and stuff if there's nothing to live for at the other end, you know?

Oh my gosh.

I'm sorry.

That is, that is very tough.

So let me ask, let me just reverse the question back to you.

Why are you doing this?

Why is this important to you?

I have been a person that's always been on top of my payments and just because of the depression, shame, whatever you want to call it over the past couple of years.

We kind of accrued the 45 grand of debt now.

And the past two months now, I haven't been able to pay my cards.

And it's embarrassing.

And I just don't want to deal with that anymore.

I got the second job and it's starting this week and we're just going to grind through it.

Nice.

What's your household income?

So my day job, I make $59 a year with a 10% bonus at the end of the year.

And then I picked up a restaurant gig in the evenings.

And from talking with my different training people,

they make $150 a night on weeknights and then right around $250 to $300 on the.

the weekends.

So

I'm probably, if I can pick enough shifts, I'm low estimate of $1,500 a month for the next couple months while it's restaurant season here in Arizona.

So, I mean, no question,

your picture of life has changed, and you're probably still struggling to see what that's going to be and what that looks like.

I'm not mad at you finding something to focus on, especially something productive like paying off $45,000 of debt.

I can only speak for me, George, but sometimes having something like that to focus on when everything feels out of control, this is one thing that you can control.

Sometimes that's just what you need to power through a season like this.

And on the other side of it, there'll be some peace because this debt will be gone.

And it kind of clears the deck for you to say, okay, what is our life going to look like now?

What does it mean for me working?

What does it mean for her care?

All of these different things.

So I think this is worthwhile for you to do

for the same reasons that other people do it, right?

There's still going to be peace on the other side financially for you.

Now, as far as the motivation, are you concerned that the working the extra hours at the restaurant is what's going to wear you down?

Is that kind of what you're talking about?

Yeah, the exhaustion from that

and then also just the extra time away from my wife because she's home alone, you know.

Yeah, and I mean, you're going to have to balance that because there are some extreme circumstances here for you that you're going to have to say,

I might have to pull back in certain seasons.

And I think that you can navigate that and judge that for yourself.

What's the timeline?

When you put these numbers into every dollar, what is it telling you?

How long is it going to take you with this money?

About 20 months.

Okay.

20 months.

So yeah, I you I have found as a person who walked a debt payoff journey of seven and a half years I kind of found that there's moments where you're pressing on the gas, you know pedal to the metal and then a life moment happens and it causes you to take your foot off ever so slightly and then you know you recalibrate and then you put the pedal to the metal again.

And so that's a lot of times what it looks like.

That's just the reality of it.

It's not to say that you've done anything wrong.

And I'm sure that that'll pop up in your circumstance too.

So start out with the intent of I'm gazelle intense, come hell or high water.

And then if something happens with your wife or something happens when you need to pull back, that's okay.

And then you hit it again strong as soon as you can.

Awesome.

Yeah, that's great.

What were some of your dreams and goals that are now off the table that have left you guys kind of feeling just cynical toward the future?

Children, just a normal life.

We were both artists pursuing our different stuff out in LA for a bit.

Then we had to move back to be near family for help.

And she was a very, very gifted musician and now she can't play or sing at all much.

So,

you know, it's just hard to see and hard to not be able to do the things you love.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Man, that's so tough.

Are you guys still wanting to become parents in the future through other means?

Possibly, but with just neurological fatigue that she experiences on a day-to-day basis, I'd have to make enough money to either work from home and be there to help out or hire a stay-at-home like nurse or something, you know?

Yeah.

Nanny.

How fresh is this?

Oh, the surgery was about four years ago, end of 2021.

Okay.

And like I said, we've just been going through a lot of like just depression and just grieving the loss of our lives.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

And, you know, we've, we've been doing therapy and that type of stuff and trying to get through it.

But I think it's fresh right now because her mom was just got into,

her mom just had brainstem surgery for the same disease.

So

she's an ICU right now.

So it's kind of, it's kind of just why it's fresh.

I'm so sorry.

Is this like a Chiari malformation or something like that?

Yeah,

CCM, a cavernoma,

a lesion.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I'm so sorry, man.

Well, you're, you're taking the right steps.

I'm proud of you.

It's hard to just like to wake up and go to work and face the day.

And I want to send you a copy of John John Deloney's book, Building a Non-Axious Life.

It's got six daily choices, and one of them is, you know, choose reality.

And you guys have grieved what was, and now it's like, this is the reality of what is.

And it'll also help you start to dream and create a new picture that you both are aligned on.

But I'm with you in the fact that it's hard.

And I'm also with, I'm against you in the fact that I think this gives you a much deeper why of why to do the baby steps.

You have more reason.

than almost anyone to do it because you can create financial peace in your home to where you have flexibility to be there for your wife instead of be stressed out about the debt working 90 hours a week forever i'd rather you suffer for 20 months and sacrifice than 20 years of just kind of mediocrity carrying this debt carrying the shame there's still a lot of life to be had even if it's not the picture that you guys had and so i want to encourage you with that and and get you a copy of that book but man that's it's not easy there's no sugarcoat in this and working those nights knowing your wife's at home and i mean it's it's gonna be a grind but you can do anything for 20 months you guys have already been through the hardest of this.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's awesome.

Yeah.

Thank you guys for that.

That's a great new perspective and a great way to look at it.

Yeah.

Thanks for the call, Henry.

Appreciate you.

Hang on the line.

We'll get you a copy of John's book.

All right.

Man, I just got to take a moment to breathe after that one, Jade.

Yeah, that's tough.

I mean, your life can change in the twinkling of an eye, just in a split second, man.

It's tough.

And it's one of those reasons, you know, people who don't follow the baby steps because they feel like life is going well, you know, they're not at a like rock bottom where they're like, I need to clean a mess up.

Yeah.

That's, that's where they, you can't show them that.

You can't show them the future where life's going to happen to you.

So, would you want to have financial peace in the midst of that or have financial chaos all while trying to deal with the things life throws at you?

Right.

And it's not about like being like fatalistic or having like this glass half empty point of view, but the truth is, life does happen.

I mean, it could be as simple as, oh my gosh, I tripped down the stair and I broke my leg and now I'm out of work.

You know,

emergencies happen, life happens, diagnoses happen, you know, marriage shifts happen in the form of divorce.

I mean, we hear all the time, and you just never know.

No one sets out for the day and says, I know, today is going to be the day that the doctor calls with bad news, right?

But you, you do want to prepare your life in such a way to where if the worst does happen, you've set yourself up for success in the best possible ways that you could have success.

Yeah.

Right.

Because what he's facing feels very, I'm sure, very dark.

But to have this one thing that's like, okay, but I did this.

And because of this, now I can go home.

I can have a little bit more peace than I would have had elsewhere, right?

And for our world, that's

not owing other people money, not having to deal with that payment while you're also trying to figure out finances for the future.

If there's a job loss or a health scare, having an emergency fund to cover you, so you're not having to swipe that credit card or take out that personal loan or do the HELOC.

Investing for the future so that you do have that nest egg built up so that in case you can't work one day, you have money to cover your expenses.

That's why we do the baby steps, not because life's going great, because we don't know what life will throw throw at us.

That puts this out of the Ramsey Show in the books.

As a mom, I plan for everything.

I plan the budgets, snacks, lunches, backup outfits in the car for the unexpected.

I mean everything.

Because moms handle a million details every day.

So don't skip one of the biggest ones.

What happens to your family if you're not there tomorrow?

You guys, a lot of people put off making a will because it can feel a little scary.

But here's what we all need to realize.

Planning for the future isn't fear.

It's love.

And creating a will turned out to be one of the most loving, protective things I could ever do for my family.

And Mama Bear Legal Forms makes it so easy.

No No lawyers, no stress, just an online process that you can finish in about 20 minutes.

And now my husband and I both sleep better because we have taken care of the stuff that really matters.

And it isn't scary, it's wise.

It's what moms do.

So if you've been putting off making a will, I totally get it.

But don't wait anymore because you're a mom first, which means you're always planning.

So go to mamabearlegalforms.com and use promo code Ramsey RAMSY to save 20%.

MamabearLegalForms.com code Ramsey.

Welcome back to the Ramsey Show in the Fair Winds Credit Union Studio.

I'm George Camill, joined by my co-host, Jade Warshaw.

Open phones at 888-825-5225.

Oliver is in Davenport, Iowa, up next.

What's going on, Oliver?

Thank you for having me.

I'm about to get into about a million dollars worth of debt, and I'm not sure if I'm doing the right thing.

Have you done it yet?

Have you signed any paperwork?

Can we talk you off the ledge?

Well, let's see if if if that is the way to go about it.

Okay, so what is the million dollars for?

So

I've until about a year ago, I lived by their Ramsey Ruse

religiously, both me and my wife.

Haven't had a single dollar in loans.

And about a year ago, I started the business.

And we killed it this year.

I've more than tripled my income, and we're doing fantastically.

However, I now come

to an opportunity which requires an additional about $450,000 investment into the business.

And I just found out that my wife's pregnant.

So we are also building a house.

Okay.

You got to have room for that.

The baby, you know, a six-pound baby needs an extra 2,000 square feet.

It takes up so much room.

That's the law in America.

Yes.

So tell me,

let's start with the house.

So what are you spending on this house?

And have you already made an offer?

Is it a done deal or is it too late?

So it's, we've already started it.

We've already signed the paperwork and we've started building it.

Okay.

It should be finished in February.

What'd you spend?

And at that point, we will be taking out a loan to purchase it.

Okay.

And what's the total spend on the house?

It is $560,000.

Okay.

And did you do it following the Ramsey principles with the payment and everything like that, down payment and what the mortgage is going to be?

We've put 25% down payment, and we're not spending more than 20,

I don't remember how many exactly percent of our income on it.

Okay, 25%.

No more than 25% of your take-home pay every month, including HOAs, taxes, and insurance.

Okay, good.

That's a green check from me.

I'm not mad about that.

So let's talk about this $450,000, quote, opportunity.

You should go watch on YouTube later, Oliver.

I threw my hands up in the air because just during the break, I told Jade, I said, Jade, every time I hear the word opportunity, it's someone about to do something real stupid.

And so you just, you hit my trigger button.

So, and that's kind of where I'm at.

So, I started this.

I've been doing this my entire life pretty much.

I'm a CNC machinist with all sorts of fancy degrees, but I opened an aerospace and medical device company.

So, all we do is make components for other people.

And

we've only opened our doors in February, and now we're up to making $13,000 to $15,000 a month.

And that's not very consistently, even though I still have a full-time job on top of that, just for security purposes, because it is a new business.

When you say per month, is that like top-line revenue, or is that net profit?

That's net profit.

Okay, good job.

Amazing.

What are you making with your full-time job?

I make $175,000.

My wife makes $85,000.

Awesome.

So you already had a great income before this business.

Yes.

And how did this opportunity present itself for you to go half million in debt for a business?

Well, I have multiple customers that I work with right now, and we currently have only one machine that we work on, and we cannot supply the demand.

And buying an additional piece of equipment will allow me probably triple my income

if that,

probably even more, because right now I'm paying a lot for rent.

So if I can put more machines into my shop, I can make more money, right?

So the machine costs $450,000?

That's including all the installation fees, tooling, et cetera.

So that's all things considered.

Okay.

So I'm always going to suggest that you move at, you know, the speed of cash on things like this.

But my question is, is there, is this any, is any part of this incremental?

Or is it like I must do it all at once, 450,000, bam, on the table?

It's all or nothing.

Okay.

What happens if you don't do it in the next two years?

Well, if I don't do it in the next four months, I lose the business that I have lined up for.

That well, not really lined up, but the opportunity that's lined up for it, because I do have specific orders that are coming down the pipeline that I can put on it.

And if I hold off for another year, those orders are not going to be there.

So can you go?

Probably won't find new ones, but can you go on a different growth track?

Like, can you go in another direction that'll continue you building this $15,000 profit a month plus your other income with you and your wife?

What is that, around $260,000?

Is there a way that you can capitalize another area of your business, continue to grow that until you can afford to make some of these upgrades?

Not really.

I'm talked out at the moment.

We're already running two shifts and running through the night just to try and keep up.

So what was your original business plan?

Of

scaling the business.

Just start.

Got you.

And then figure it.

Well, I had a couple of orders lined just to get started, but really it was

start going down the pipeline and start doing it.

And it's going to work out.

And it really did.

Did you have the ability?

Did you have the thought in mind when you, because I'm trying to understand when you first started this business, did you have in your mind, I'm starting this business, I'm not going to take out debt for it.

I'm just going to grow it, even if it's slow and steady.

Or did you have in mind, I'm going to start this business and I'm going to be one of those people who, you know, takes on investors and takes loans.

And who were you when you started

this project?

I was planning to, if needed, I was planning to take loans and grow exponentially.

If that's where I needed to go, it's just right now I'm I never expected to be in this position a year from starting the business.

I thought it's going to be a much more slower and gradual growth rather than all and everything all at once.

And all of the tariffs that are now happening are definitely helping out with that because we're having a lot of people who used to order from other countries and now they're coming back to the U.S.

So here's my take.

I think the opportunity will still be there.

You might lose some in the meantime, but I don't want you to get too starry-eyed and go, well, if we had seven machines, we could 20X.

At some point, there's not enough money in the world to make the stress worth it, especially with a baby on the way.

And so I want you to think about just the reality of your situation.

You're about to move.

You got a baby on the way.

Do we also want another half million in debt?

Now we need, now there's real pressure on this business to succeed.

Now you have to be there working overnight.

And what if she decides to stay home once the baby's here?

Well, what does that do?

That might put some strain on this financial situation we've created because we owe a lot of money now.

Fair point.

So that's the part I can't show you on paper.

That's just the reality of life.

But I would say, can we make a plan to save up and pay cash for this thing in less than two years?

I think that's the reality.

If you guys are bringing home, you know, I don't know, 25 grand a a month and you can live off seven, let's throw 18 into a high-yield savings account and two years, two years from now, we have 450 grand in cash.

Now that thing's cash flowing beautifully instead of having a $4,000 a month payment on it.

Yeah, there's nothing on fire here unless you make it on fire.

And that's the beauty of what you've done so far.

You're a brilliant guy.

And so all I'm saying is the opportunities will be there.

People want good, honest, quality work done from smart people.

And I think that opportunity will still be there two years from now.

And I hope you call back and you have a multi-multi-million dollar machining business that is paid for in cash.

And I think that future is very much possible for you guys.

It's going to happen sooner than you know it, but I wouldn't try to leapfrog it with debt right now.

If you've got collectors breathing down your neck and you're drowning in credit card debt, you don't need another debt relief company trying to sell you sunshine and unicorns.

You need real help.

And Guardian Litigation Group is the real deal.

They're not a call center.

They're actual attorneys.

That means when a creditor tries to sue you, they can step into the courtroom and fight back.

Now listen, debt settlement isn't pretty.

It's not a magic wand, and I'd prefer you get out of debt the old-fashioned way.

But if you're staring down bankruptcy and you've got no other way out, Guardian gives you a path to clean up the mess without paying a dime up front.

Guardian's attorneys have helped over 55,000 people across the nation settle over $600 million of debt.

So if you're ready to take back control of your life and stop cringing every time the phone rings, go to guardian LIT

dot com slash Ramsey.

That's guardianlit.com slash Ramsey.

Paid endorsement, attorney advertising, Guardian Litigation Group LLP, not available in Minnesota and Oregon.

Results vary and no specific outcome is guaranteed.

Debt settlement may negatively affect credit and not all creditors will negotiate or settle.

Savings vary and may be taxable.

Please review our website terms for more information.

Philip is in South Dakota.

Welcome to the Ramsey Show.

Phillip, how can we help?

Hi,

thanks for having me.

so me and my wife

have been living paycheck to paycheck for quite a few years now.

At one point, we managed to get out, but that was when I had worked a job that paid me more.

And then I unfortunately lost that job.

And then

now I'm a custodian at a school that pays me once a month.

We just had our second kid, and she's not working right now, but that was fine.

to really make this money

stretch.

And I don't know how I'm trying to make our money stretch, but also not with paycheck to paycheck.

How much debt do you guys have?

Well

I'm thousands

for health care.

So you got medical bills?

Yeah, medical.

And then I know that

she's in debt with medical too.

Do you have car loans, credit cards?

No, we do not.

Actually, I had a credit card when I had moved up here, and I think I paid it off because

they haven't bothered me since.

I wasn't terribly in debt with the credit card, thank God.

Okay.

So

I'm hearing some uncertainty in your language, which lets me know that you haven't really gotten your head around

your finances.

You kind of know that there is some debt, but maybe you don't know how much it is and hopefully it's gone, like that kind of situation.

What I'd like is for you and your wife to sit down tonight and pull out everything that you think there might be surrounding this.

And you can pull your credit reports to help.

You can go to annualcreditreport.com and pull all three from the three credit bureaus for free.

That'll give you a real clear picture of what's out there.

Then you can actually write down these numbers.

And we'll, before you get off the line, we'll make sure to give you every dollar for free for a while so that you can get your head around this.

Because I think part of the problem when you're living paycheck to paycheck is you don't know what the problem is.

There's debt.

I don't know how much.

I'm just making the payment.

You know, you're just barely getting by.

You don't have a budget.

And so when you don't have a plan, it's really hard to be in control of your money.

And so if we give you every dollar, that's going to be the plan going forward.

But you guys have to do it.

You got to plug the numbers in.

You put your income at the top, which, by the way, what are you making as a custodian?

What do you bring home every month?

Well, I get paid $17 an hour,

$2,300 a month.

I get paid once a month.

I think that rounded up to $31,000, $32,000 a year.

Okay.

Is there money coming in from anywhere else, or is this the only money to you guys's name every single month?

Is there anything else?

If she goes back to work, she'd be pulling in money too.

I think she makes

around $1,000

every two weeks.

What about your living situation?

What are you paying for rent?

We pay about $1,000 for rent.

So that's half your income, just about right there.

Yes, sir.

To pay $1,000 in any other circumstance isn't bad, but when you're only making $2,300, it's impossible, right?

So

the key here, this is an income problem.

And I think that you realize that.

When will your wife start working again?

Well, like I said, she had her baby about a month ago.

So I would assume maybe, maybe in a couple of weeks.

I told her when she's ready to go back in.

So

I don't want to throw her back into work if she's not ready.

Which means that you're going to have to have like four jobs.

Okay.

And I hate telling you that because it's your baby too, right?

And you're like, I want to be home with the newborn.

I want to see this baby, you know, grow every every day a little bit each more, each day, but you don't have that luxury right now.

You've got to have the custodian job and three others while you're online and knocking on doors to find another main job that pays more.

You've got your work cut out for you, Philip.

What were you doing before?

Well, before I was working at a gas station, and that paid

I think

$13 or $14 an hour.

Well, you said you were making more money and then you lost that.

I'm sorry.

I was making more money

two

years ago when

I was working at an ethanol plant.

I was making about $22 an hour.

Okay.

And I was getting paid bi-weekly.

How old are you?

That was pretty good.

I'm 25.

Okay.

You're still a young guy.

What I think we need to do is find ourselves a career instead of just a job.

Something you can really sink your teeth into, grow in, and that'll get you making 50, 60, 70, 80.

I think you're a guy who's got a lot of skill and a lot of work ethic and a lot of integrity.

And that's 90% of the problem in today's world.

That's who people are looking to hire.

So, what kind of skills would you say you have that you could apply to another area?

Are you good with your hands?

Are you pretty handy?

Yeah, I don't mind getting my hands dirty and doing grunt work.

That's what I've been doing most of my life.

I worked in construction before I moved to South Dakota.

So

I did that for a long while there.

Sorry, you broke up on us.

What I'm going to do, Philip, is send you a copy of Ken Coleman's book, Find the Work You're Wired to Do.

I think this is kind of a, this new baby is giving you new motivation to find yourself a career that's going to help you get out of debt and stay out of debt.

Because right now, truthfully, we can tell you the plan of, you know, debt snowball, but when you don't have, you know, nothing but $100 left at the end of the month, it's going to be hard to do the baby steps.

So we do need to increase that income ASAP.

And if your wife can get back to work and make, you know, 35, 40 grand, and you can start making 45, 50 grand, well, now we have a plan to get out of this a whole lot faster.

Okay.

Yeah, I like that plan for you.

And I, you know, I think sometimes people think they've got to have a college degree.

They've got to have this college education.

And that's not always the case.

So I think that Ken Coleman's book is really going to help you get on the right path.

Yeah.

Hang on the line will get you every dollar.

And Ken's book, Find the Work Your Wired to Do.

John is in Houston up next.

John, how can we help today?

Yes, sir.

So we're, my wife and I were we're expecting we've got a baby on the way and we're looking at moving here in the next year

now

her family is

giving us a section of land and we're looking at putting a double wide on it and we're going to be there for

you know that's our gonna be our forever

My real main question on this is I have the opportunity to go through with the VA home loan like my current home loan,

but I don't know if I want to, or if it'd be a good idea to pair the land and the VA home loan, because that's what it's going to require, or keep the land separate and do what they call a chattel loan.

And that's just like a high-interest personal property loan.

So let me...

Pretty much, yes, it is.

You triggered me again.

I don't know how long you've been listening this hour, but you say the word opportunity, and I get my fists are up ready to fight.

Because what you're about to set yourself up to is get a depreciating asset at a very high interest rate.

Right.

And so it's a bad plan all around.

And the VA loans, they can be an okay deal in some cases if your disability rating is high enough.

But man, it's riddled with fees.

The closing takes forever.

There's really strict requirements.

And it gets people into houses with nothing down, which is not a good thing.

Because all that means is you have 100% loan and you have no equity.

Right, correct.

So we would still take our current equity, split that in half, pay off the truck and pay,

actually still do a down payment.

How much debt do you guys have?

We only have the house, which we owe $110, and the truck, which is $38, and then about $1,000 on the credit card.

And why would you go from the house, which is appreciating, to a mobile home?

Yeah, what's

well,

it is a current mobile home with land, but it has the land has appreciated.

And my agent, you know, I talked with her the other day.

She told me what we could list and what everything's selling at, and I would have equity in it.

Yeah, but what's the rush?

I don't think there's

a rush around this, and I don't like what you're rushing towards.

I agree with George on this.

Plus, you still have debt.

Yeah.

What's your household income?

Mine is anywhere per year from 76 to probably about

My wife's is about 32 right now.

She's in school.

We're paying for, you know, cash-wise, and she'll be making about 50 to 60.

Okay.

And then DA.

You guys have a strong income.

I would just go slow and get out of the house.

I would not move to another mobile home that's going to depreciate.

I don't think the land's going to depreciate fast enough to make this a good idea.

If you've listened to me for more than five minutes, you know that being normal with your money is not a good thing because normal is broke.

And I want you to be weird.

That's why I love what we're doing with Fairwinds Credit Union.

Our friends at Fairwinds just launched a brand new Ramsey debit card.

And it says, debt is normal be weird right on the front I love that because every time you swipe it you're choosing to live differently with no credit card payments and no debt you see Fairwinds has been helping people like you ditch debt faster and build wealth for years they're not trying to shove credit cards or auto loans in your face like the big banks do and they've worked with us to create the smart bundle for Ramsey fans it includes a no-fee checking account, a high-yield savings account to supercharge your emergency fund, and now the Ramsey debit card to help you stay focused on the baby steps.

We're excited for you to try it.

So check them out today at fairwinds.org/slash Ramsey.

That's fairwinds.org/slash Ramsey.

Insured by the NCUA.

Today's question of the day is brought to you by WireReFi.

If your private student loans are in default and you feel stuck, you're not out of options.

YReFi specializes in helping borrowers like you find real solutions with low fixed rate refinancing.

Go to YReFi.com slash Ramsey.

That's the letter Y, R-E-F-Y dot com slash Ramsey.

Not available in all states.

Alrighty, today's question comes from Toby in New York.

He says, if I have two full-time jobs and the second income is currently going towards investing in my retirement, and the, oh, let me read that again.

If I have two full-time jobs and the second income is currently going towards investing in my retirement fund, do I still need to have an emergency fund since this second job effectively insulates me from the loss of my primary job?

I would like to invest as much as I can now while I'm young and worry about the emergency fund later.

I'm debt-free other than my mortgage.

Oh, Toby.

What?

Sweet, Toby.

Okay.

So I hear what you're saying.

I understand your logic, but there's several holes in your logic.

Number one, an emergency fund.

For those who are new to this, we suggest the order of events with your finances are first you just set a quick thousand dollars aside,

then you pay off all of your debt.

That's baby step two, all of your debt except your mortgage.

And then baby step three.

Yeah, you save up three to six months of an emergency fund.

After that, you you start investing.

So that's what Toby is talking about.

Toby, the problem is emergency funds are there for more things than job loss, right?

That's one of the emergencies that could come up.

Or another emergency you could have is, you know, you get in a car accident, you can't work for a while or all sorts of other things.

So there's that money is there for a plethora of reasons.

So that's hole number one in your reasoning.

The other idea is, well, if something does pop up and you don't have an emergency fund, you're going to need money from somewhere.

And if you don't have an emergency fund, you're going to do one of two things.

You're either going to unplug your investments, which if you do that, that's to the tune of.

taxes and fees and all of this, or you're going to turn around and take out debt.

So you're not setting yourself up to win.

The reason that we teach the baby steps in the order that we teach them is because it's a system and systems build on one thing after another in order for the system to function properly.

So I'm not just talking to Toby right now.

I'm talking to anybody who thinks that they can kind of hack the baby steps and switch them around to suit their order.

When you switch the baby steps around, they don't work anymore

because you have to have the foundation in order to start building the wealth the correct way.

And so, no, Toby, I would not do that.

I would do your emergency fund first.

Since you have two jobs, you can do this so fast.

I'm just still confused at the two jobs.

I'm like, this is one of those situations he calls in and goes, hey, I lost both jobs because I found out I was too timing.

Right, right.

How can you work two full-time jobs effectively?

That's a question for another day.

Are you sleeping?

I don't know.

Are you circular breathing around the clock?

I don't know.

And you don't have a, I mean, you're not God.

So you can't just push all of your emergencies to when you're retired.

That's not how it works.

So like this idea, you're going to get the emergency fund later, the emergencies are going to come before you're ready for it.

Always.

They always do.

I would pause investing and just stack up cash for three months, keep it in high-yield savings.

You'll do it so fast.

Don't invest that money.

Keep it liquid and you'll sleep better at night.

If you're sleeping at all, Toby, Toby, we don't know.

No, he's not sleeping.

He's

left us with more questions than answers.

He's destroyed.

Goodness Christ.

Is this when he has like two laptops and he's like on Zoom calls on both?

And he has like a little stick figure of Toby over here to fake it.

He has the AI Toby.

That's sketchy.

All right.

Stephanie's up next in Louisville, Kentucky.

What's going on, Stephanie?

Hi, Jay and George.

Thank you so much for taking my call.

My question is, so we just finished babysit babysit number three, me and my husband.

I went into my 401k contribution to bump that up to 15%

while we were planning out our budget.

And we immediately got like bummed out because it wiped out all of our extra cash that we were planning on maybe kind of increasing our spending or having a little extra money to throw at the house or save up for a new mom van because I'm currently driving a 2005 Honda Odyssey with only one working sliding door.

So that's where we're at right now.

We're kind of bummed and I don't know where else to go because I don't think we really live outside our meme.

What are your total expenses versus your take-home pay?

Our take-home pay is about, well, pre-tax is $3,800.

After taxes, it's like $3,200.

Okay.

So then we've got like...

How much is your mortgage?

I guess the 401k.

It's about, oh, that's the one thing that I think we might be able to have legal room on.

Our mortgage is $1,500, but it's a 30-year.

And

yeah, it's about 20%, I think, of our pre-tax.

Well, that's where.

$1,500, I guess, is our best.

That's where the problem is.

Is your monthly take-home pay $3,200 or is that bi-weekly?

Oh, that's bi-weekly.

Oh, okay.

I was about to say, well, there you have it.

And you gave us a heart attack over here.

We were like, that's all of the problem.

Right.

Okay.

So

$6,400.

Is that after the retirement contributions are taken out?

The

$7,700 is our before-tax

monthly income.

Okay.

Yeah, I'm just trying to figure out how much margin is really there after the 15% and healthcare premiums.

All that comes out, and you're saying, hey, we got nothing left at that point.

Yeah.

Are you guys, do you do 10% tithe or do you do a higher percentage of giving?

What's your giving look like?

Our giving is about like 5%.

Okay, so 401k is at like 15%.

Taxes, I guess, are another $15.

The mortgage is $20.

Groceries is $10.

Eating out is about $5.

Do you have daycare?

Anybody in daycare?

No, health insurance is about $8.

No, we don't have any daycare.

We have diapers and, I mean, all the normal things, oil changes and home maintenance and

do you have a bunch of sinking funds?

No, we have I guess we have a Christmas budget.

We had to bump up recently.

That's 200 per month.

But that's just so we can be prepared for Christmas.

The reason I ask is sometimes a bunch of sinking funds can kind of drain off margin

if you

have them set year round and you're just doing a little bit, but you're doing a bunch of them.

I mean, I'd want to take a look at your budget because obviously, yeah, mortgage should be no more than 25%,

15% for investing, 10% giving.

That's 50%.

That's half gone right there.

So I'm wondering how much those, all those other little odds and ends that are eating into this and

how necessary, like how

necessary they are at the current amounts.

And that's what you're going to have to go through with a fine-tooth comb.

There are some things, time of life that can really play into it.

Like if you have kids in daycare or kids in private school, things like that can really eat into that margin after 15%.

But I I don't hear that here.

So I think it's just a bunch of like death by a thousand cuts.

Because if you guys are bringing home about $6,400 and the mortgage is $1,500, well, there should be $5,000 disappearing somewhere.

And yes, it gets eaten up by different things, but I think if you, it might not be one big thing, but like Jade said, that fine-tooth comb.

kind of nickel and diming each thing and maybe you can squeeze out 50 bucks here, 100 bucks there, to where it adds up to 1,000 bucks we freed up by doing a very detailed budget.

Well, now that's 12 grand a year towards this minivan goal.

What do you spend on food every month?

Groceries is about $200 a week, so $800 a month.

And then eating out is about $100 a week.

So it's like $1,200 total.

That's not bad.

Anything else we should know about?

I mean,

you could squeeze some of that.

You're a family of four, though, right?

Five, yes.

Oh, yes.

Groceries, food is good.

Yeah, like you said, I don't think anything's out of control here.

I would also reshop your insurance and see if you can save.

That's one of those weird areas where you're like, oh, we've had whatever, you know, for 20 years and we just never looked into it.

And so I would jump on ramseysolutions.com and start reshopping your insurance because that's somewhere you could shave off hundreds just overnight just by realizing we've been overpaying.

And then on top of that, there might be a season where you guys need to increase your income to save up for this van or increase the income.

If your lifestyle is just way up here, we need our income to match it.

And so one of us or both of us need to work work a little more, get that promotion, start scaling up in our career.

I think both of those are going to help you long term and both should happen.

But right now, the thing you can do tonight is start going through that budget, going through every transaction, every bank statement, going, where can we do better?

And I think that'll help you find some margin right now.

But you're doing all the right things.

The money's going to the right places.

But I agree there should be a little bit more

to save up for that car upgrade, to put money away for college, to pay off the house early.

So I hope you guys will get there in due time.

Thank you so much for the call.

For way too long, I struggled with sleep and woke up groggy after tossing and turning all night.

But now, I look forward to bedtime and I wake up bright-eyed and bushy-tailed thanks to Casper, a company that's been perfecting better sleep for over a decade using durable, high-quality materials that actually last.

My whole family now sleeps on Casper mattresses.

Yes, even the dogs have their own Casper dog bed to no one's surprise.

And it's not just one man's opinion.

Casper customers keep their mattresses for years, and four out of five customers recommend them to friends.

And with free delivery and 100-night trial, Casper is no gimmicks.

A mattress you can trust backed by quality that lasts.

So go to casper.com/slash Ramsey and use promo code Ramsey to receive 25% off all mattresses and 10% off everything else with code Ramsey.

That's casper.com/slash Ramsey.

Exclusions apply.

All right, here are the top questions people have about online wills.

Number one, how do I know if I need a trust or if my estate is too complicated for an online will?

Well, if your estate is worth less than a million bucks, getting a will online, good option right now.

What do I need to start my will online?

Answer these questions.

Who do you want to get your stuff?

Who do you want to take care of your minor kids?

Who do you want to make decisions if you're incapacitated?

Is it legally valid?

Yes, but it's got to be state-specific to match your state laws.

And finally, why would I do an online will versus traditional made with a lawyer?

Well, online, it's going to be less expensive, more convenient, and take less time.

So, to take our quiz, go to ramseysolutions.com/slash/willsquiz to find out if an online will is right for you.

Kevin is in Philly up next.

What's going on, Kevin?

Hey, guys.

I'm just wondering a little bit of a moral financial question.

If

do I

morally

owe my dad's girlfriend money from his estate?

Okay.

There are so much context needed.

Dad's girlfriend.

Tell us more.

Well, number one, did you borrow money from your dad's girlfriend?

I did not.

So why would you owe him money?

Well, they've been together for quite some time, a little bit over 20 years now, and he passed away about two months ago.

And they were living together at the time.

And now

her daughter is now pressuring uh family members on my side uh to somehow come together and financially split uh the money from his uh from his estate once we get it uh and give it why are you getting it did it all go to you

No, so it goes to me, my brother, and

my half-sister.

He did pass away unexpectedly without a will.

And

they were never married.

Okay, so I was going to ask,

was there a will that said it went to you or the courts just decided this?

No, there was no will, and the money will be split between me, my brother, and my sister.

And how long was he with the girlfriend?

Just north of 20 years, 22, 23 years, something like that.

And they lived together?

Were their lives combined as though they were married?

Basically, yeah.

And the daughter, is that your dad's daughter or that's the girlfriend's daughter from another relationship?

Correct.

Yes.

Ooh, that's messy.

Boy, oh, boy.

What does she want?

Yeah, what was his wishes?

Did he have a will?

Like, your name was on everything legally.

No, there was no will.

Actually, yeah, no will.

So it's just a next of kin thing.

The government just goes, all right, give it to the kids.

What are they requesting?

What's the girlfriend requesting?

And what's her attitude?

Like, what's her demeanor been?

Well, it's more her daughter is requesting.

It's not necessarily her.

She's trying to fight on behalf of her mom to go, Mom, you're owed something.

You were with this guy 20 years.

This is crazy.

How old is the daughter?

Just over 30, 30, 31.

And what's her, tell me about her, if you know anything.

Is she doing okay financially, or does this have the ability of like a lever that she's pulling to try to get something?

No, she's she's not financially uh financially set.

She

lives with a boyfriend.

They actually have a baby on the way.

They are just kind of living their lives.

And I mean, I can understand where they're coming from with trying to get money back into her.

And they're only really pressuring my youngest sister, my half sister.

They're only pressuring her.

They won't come and talk to me.

What are they asking for specifically?

They're basically asking for her to either split and or give up

her portion of the

portion of the portion of the past.

What is the rationale for her giving up her share?

Because

her mom put all of this time and money into

the house, basically.

Okay.

Is the house split amongst the three of you now?

Whatever, we have to sell the house.

So

whatever we have on top of that, basically, once all the debt gets paid, once the house gets paid off, once the debt gets paid.

So the girlfriend has to move out?

The girlfriend has to move out so you can sell the house.

Is that right?

Or she wasn't living there?

Among other things, yeah.

So

I was actually, so I was renting a house that my grandmother owned.

And

since...

since they had, since we found out we have to sell the house,

they all needed a place to live.

So I packed up, me and my family, and went and rented a different house so that way they can move into that house.

Oh, my gosh.

My grandmother's owned their house for like 55 years.

So she's owned that house.

And that way they can all have a place to live.

And that way they're not, you know, struggling to jump around and find a place to live.

It's my grandmother, her

brother, or a full brother and a stepbrother.

Yeah.

So it was just a decision me wife made.

Let me, can I recap that and make sure I understood it?

So you were living in your grandmother's paid-for-house with your family, and you said, I'll leave that house so my dad's girlfriend and daughter can move in there, free and clear, right?

Well, it's my, so it was my, my, it was all basically all the people that lived at my dad's house.

So it was my grandmother, who had just moved in in February,

his girlfriend.

I have a stepbrother, which is her son.

Oh, my gosh.

And then my full brother.

Okay, so they all have a place to live.

So the girlfriend and the daughter are not displaced, is what I'm saying.

They're taken care of.

Because my thought, the one thing I did wonder about is like, okay, she's been living with this man for 20 years.

It does feel like the rug's being pulled under her, out from under her.

If she has to move out of the house, she doesn't have a place to go and she doesn't have any money, right?

So it does make me feel better that she's got a place to live in deaf.

She's not on the streets.

She's not on the streets.

And this is in Pennsylvania, all of this?

Correct.

And

if there's a silver lining to this, it's that, I mean, they move into a house that is paid for.

There's no rent.

There's no mortgage.

There's no, they're basically living.

Who pays the taxes?

Who pays the taxes?

My grandmother will be paying the taxes.

Okay, so

but rent from the other three people that are living in the house will pay for their taxes.

Great.

Okay, great.

And does girlfriend have to pay rent?

I don't know their

financial, the way they're handling that house.

Okay.

And did she have to,

I'm just trying to understand.

When she was living with your dad, did she pay or did he pay for everything or you don't know?

So they he basically paid for everything.

She did work.

She really only worked to so that way they can have insurance because he didn't have insurance for his company.

So he basically held everything financial down.

She kind of only worked enough to pay for insurance.

I don't think that you guys are on the hook to do anything here.

This is what happens when you don't have a will.

This is what happens when you don't estate plan.

When you don't get married and have a house, someone you're not married to.

So, there's a lot of things that went wrong here, and it's very complicated, but morally, legally, ethically, I don't think you owe anything.

And here's the problem: if you guys do give them a dollar, they're going to come at you for the next dollar and the next hundred dollars.

And so it's going to open a door, and I just would keep that door closed personally.

Yeah, that's what I was, I was on the phone with my youngest sister today, just just kind of going over and explaining that to her.

I just kind of wanted to get a little bit of a second opinion.

Well, there was never a commitment.

So, and that's what I'm going to base my answer on anyway, is if you want a commitment to getting money.

out of a will, then you have to start with a commitment through marriage.

And so that I'm going to keep that same through line of a commitment was never made and therefore a commitment does not have to be fulfilled.

And that's kind of some people might be like, well, dang, Jay, like the the woman was living there for 20 years.

And I get that.

I hate that.

For me, being okay with it is the fact that y'all didn't displace her.

You made sure she has a place to live.

She's, she's taking, she's okay on that end.

And my other part is she had a role to play in this too.

It wasn't just that your dad left her without anything.

She also could have said, hey, I'm here.

I've been with you.

You know, do you have a will?

Is everything taken care of?

So both

of you have to not even think about this is pretty wild behavior.

And so she put herself in a very risky position and now is, you know, is reaping the consequences of that.

But under, from what I've seen, under Pennsylvania law, she has no right to any of this just as a girlfriend.

She's an unrelated person in this and it's going to go to the legal heirs.

So I would consult a lawyer if you want to cover your bases.

But morally, just based on feelings, you're going to feel guilty because this is not a good situation.

But you did nothing to cause this.

And I don't think it's your problem to solve either.

Yeah.

So so sorry you're going through this.

I mean, goodness, if I'm you, I'm like, lesson learned.

I don't want to put my family in the situation.

Let me simplify and not intertwine family finances and non-family and are we or aren't we?

Just keep things very, very clear.

You spend hours researching before making a major purchase like a home or car, but it's also a good idea to put in the work searching for the right insurance coverage.

To protect your biggest assets, I recommend using Ramsey Trusted Pros.

Whether you're looking for car, home, or any other type of insurance, Ramsey Trusted providers have been coached and vetted to serve you like we would.

Find what you need at ramseysolutions.com slash insurance.

Welcome back to the Ramsey Show in the Fairwinds Credit Union Studio.

I'm George Campbell, joined by best-selling author Jade Warshaw, and we're taking your calls at 888-825-5225.

Marcus is in Columbus, Ohio.

Marcus, welcome to the show.

Thank you.

What's going on today?

So I have a bit of a question

around whole life insurance, something that I know

there's a lot of opinions out there about.

And I'm considering a whole life policy in addition to a term life policy.

And I have a bit of a unique case in the reason why I'm considering it.

And I'm curious to get your thoughts and opinions on it.

Okay.

Yeah.

What's brought you to this point where you think you need it?

So just a little background on myself.

So I'm 39 and

I just started consulting a year ago.

I'm married.

My wife isn't working, but she's helping out a little bit, but she's priority is managing our two kids, three and five.

So we're considering two policies, the term life being 40, and then between now and 60, having that term life insurance there available in case anything happens.

And then looking at a whole life in terms of being able to access a certain amount of dollars.

Now, a certain dollars between now and 60 to where I can't touch a lot of the investments.

What do you need access to the money for?

I'm confused.

So the thought is that

I have, you know, so $10,000 I'm considering putting in to a policy.

If I was to need a certain amount of money between, you know, now and 60 or towards cars or whatever expenses may come across, I want to be able to have access to my own money and also be able to kind of still have it grow separate from what you're doing.

You can do that in a savings account.

Yeah.

Or you could do an investment account.

Yeah.

So why not just have your own emergency fund or sinking fund or even side investment account if you're trying to build wealth for the future?

Why do it inside of a super expensive whole life policy where you make someone rich while you stay broke?

Yeah, with a bad rate of return.

So the return

is what I was curious about: the return.

So the return being low, and of course, a savings having you know barely anything.

So not looking for an investment on these dollars, but something that I can actually so the idea with the whole life is that you could borrow against

the dollars that you put in.

And so with that thought, I was wondering if I was to put in dollar, you know, say $10,000 into this and be able to kind of continue contributing to it and have the benefit of borrowing back to myself.

Why do you need to borrow back to yourself?

But do you not sound that sounds insane?

Why not just take money out of your savings and replenish it?

Or use the same thing without interest that you're paying.

Yeah, or use the $10,000 that you started with for whatever it was that you needed.

So if the $10,000 was used to pay off, say, a car or

something like that, or to pay off whatever expenses, then it goes away.

Not if you invest it.

What if you invested it?

Let's just pretend.

Forget the baby steps, what baby step you're on right now.

Let's say you have $10,000 and you say, I want this to continue on for me.

Yeah, I probably won't put it in a high yield because the rate of return is not enough to make it grow at the rate that I'd like.

So you say, okay, what if I just drop it in an index fund?

You know, that's got an average annualized rate of return between 10 and 12%.

If I invest it in good growth stock mutual funds, or if I do just a regular index fund, I'll get that, right?

So I drop it in there and I say, okay, I'm going to let that grow.

Yeah, I wouldn't suggest putting it there unless you're going to keep it there five years or more, but we're talking investments, right?

So that's across the board.

So why wouldn't I just drop it there instead of dropping it into a product that's inside of life insurance that has a poor rate of return?

Why would I choose something with a lower rate of return if that's the point?

So, yeah, so the

poor rate of return is what I'm thinking about here.

So I have investments.

I have other, you know, Roths and other accounts that I'm investing in.

And I get that poor rate of return piece.

Yeah.

So my thought here is I could keep it, yeah, of course, in a savings and access it when I need it and try to replenish it.

I'm probably not going to be able to replenish it as fast to $10,000.

So that's why I was considering, is there a place to access money as I need it, but still keep it there as accessible?

So yeah, you want to borrow it as debt.

Right, right, as my own debt.

And I'm saying, why?

Why are we having to do that?

Why are we having to make things complex?

Especially if you're not saying, Jade, here's what I need the money for.

You don't even have an idea of what you're going to use the money for.

So why are we making it complex in that way?

So the idea is that I'll always, so right now I am consulting.

So I'm building a business.

And so there's not kind of, you know, that constant, consistent income.

Are you doing that full-time or do you have a full-time job?

I'm doing it full-time.

And how much are you making?

$100,000.

Oh, nice.

As a base and growing.

And growing from there.

and

what kind of business is it what kind of consulting

energy consulting very cool how what where did this whole life idea even come into your brain because this feels like something somebody sold you on like a friend called you up

yeah yeah so no i've considered it uh before but i wanted to get more thoughts on it outside of just kind of writing it off so i want to get more thoughts on understanding because it's not that i want to invest in it for as an investment so i get that it's not going to be you know an investment case, but being able to access my own money and then pay myself and then build it as my own bank.

So I've done zero interest credit cards.

I've moved money as I needed it responsibly.

I've kept my credit score above 700.

So I've operated responsibly with my money.

But I'm saying, is there a vehicle I can use that allows me to access it as I need it as I grow my business?

Yeah, we've told you, Marcus.

And here's the thing.

You are playing, you're playing a different game.

You're in the financial maze rat race of going I have a good credit score I can borrow money I do the 0% cards I've just never met somebody who is wealthy and successful who plays all of this game and wealthy people just have their own bank in the term in the in the way of savings so just build up an emergency fund and if you need money outside of that you can build up a sinking fund with your amazing income and so I don't think you need to play a scenario out where you need to borrow from yourself and pay yourself back with interest for some kind of benefit I don't think that's ever going to make sense unless a whole life insurance person sold you on this as far as some kind of tax benefits or otherwise.

Yeah.

So you said the, what's the other one that you said?

Savings?

Because I thought about this as well.

You know, just to have a savings and build it up that way.

But you said another sinking phone.

So high yield savings account is great for liquid money you might need in the next couple of years, right?

So that's going to be your emergency fund, you're saving up for a car, whatever it may be.

Anything that's beyond four or five year timeline or horizon, you could invest.

Now, you could invest in retirement.

And if you want to access it earlier, you can invest outside of retirement just using an index fund in a brokerage account.

But you don't need to do that through an insurance policy.

It's the most expensive and stupid way to do it.

And the only people who advocate for it are the people who sell it.

And you're limited on what you can invest in.

So that's what I was trying to get at.

Who talked you into this?

Because this is not something that's common sense.

Common sense would say, have a savings account if you need money.

Yeah, yeah.

And I wouldn't necessarily have been talked into it.

This is me exploring it.

I've looked at, you know, I want to hear I wanted to hear it out.

And so this is the opinion that I'm looking for is

what are the, you know, the supports.

Because the three that I've heard from your show is, you know, you're losing money in the first three years.

I get that.

And then a lower death benefit for a dollar.

And then the low return on investment.

So those, I get that.

Do you have life insurance right now at all?

Yeah, yes, term.

I don't.

No, I thought you did.

You said you were looking at it.

I'm looking at, I'm setting up that in the process of setting up.

Insurance is made for one thing, to protect your income.

That is the reason for life insurance.

We don't use it as an investment.

I would get term life today.

I would stop fooling with it because if something happens to you tomorrow, your family's in a real lurch, man.

Get it today.

Check out Xander.

Hey, what's up guys?

It's Jade.

You know that moment when you check your bank account and think, wait a minute, how is my paycheck gone already?

Yeah, not cool.

You work way too hard to feel broke like that.

And the truth is, you deserve better than just not feeling broke.

You need more margin, more breathing room.

And that's what our Every Dollar Budget app helps you find.

Most people free up an average of $3,015 in just the first 15 minutes in the app.

Just imagine how much you could find to pay off debt, stack savings, and just breathe easier with that money stress gone.

Things might seem tight.

I get it, but I promise you, you've got way more margin than you think.

And with every dollar, you'll find it.

Download it for free today in the App Store or Google Play today.

All right, Jade, let's talk about real estate.

Do it.

Buying or selling a home is a big deal.

With all the clickbait headlines and conflicting data out there, it's hard to know what's really happening in the housing market.

So let's make the trends easy to understand.

Median home prices dipped a bit last month to about 426 grand, a typical season shift as we head into the fall.

So buyers have more options and negotiating power.

Sellers may face more competition.

And maybe in your area, the houses could be sitting a little longer.

Mortgage rates dipped slightly to 5.5% in September, giving some buyers breathing room.

But since rates are unpredictable, the best time to to buy is when you're financially ready, not when you hope rates drop.

That's called timing the market, and it's risky.

So, to learn more about housing market trends and get free tools to help you buy or sell with confidence, go to ramseysolutions.com/slash market or click the link in the show notes if you're listening on podcast or YouTube.

Joe is in Minneapolis.

Joe, welcome to the Ramsey Show.

Hi, how's it going?

Great.

How are you?

Great, better than I deserved.

I love it.

That's what we like to hear.

What's up?

Yeah.

So

I was wondering, I'm in Babyset 2.

And I was wondering if I can go on a trip, like a trip for Christmas to see family living.

I got family in Hawaii.

And I don't know if I'd call it vacation.

I mean, it kind of is, but it's like also just to visit family.

I mean, my mom lives out there, so, and my nephews and nieces.

That's my main question.

It's just you?

Yeah, yeah.

I'm a single, single guy.

What's it cost to go?

I'm thinking, like,

I've seen tickets, like, I've gotten tickets for like 500 round trip, but around that time, probably be like maybe seven, eight hundred.

Um, so I'm thinking, like, cap the trip at, like, a grand.

Mm-hmm.

Um,

and I've been Ubering on the side.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, during the day I work as a quality engineer, um, I make make 90, but I got like 20, 20 some thousand in debt, but I've been moving around the side to like kind of like

get out of debt faster.

What are you making from that?

Six to eight months?

Well,

I've been trying to figure that out.

I'm thinking like 300 in my pocket a week is like a good target.

I'm trying to hit like 500 a week if I can to like get my baby set two and three done by next May, but I'll definitely get out of debt by next May though.

So,

I mean, so you're you're did.

I hear you say you're earning $90,000 from your day job.

Yeah.

And the debt is $20,000?

Like $23,000.

Yeah.

$23,000.

I feel like you could go faster than that, but maybe, and it's just you.

What's your when you get your check every single month, how much is it?

It's but like after my, I guess my benefits stuff is like 20

20,

25

per check.

So it's five grand a month.

Are you investing?

No.

I think like, it's like close, a couple hundred goes to

like benefit stuff or insurance or whatever.

But

I think it's like across the year, it's like

$2,600 per check.

Okay.

And then,

okay, great.

And then you did the $300 per week.

How much do you pay for rent?

I feel like a lot.

I pay like $1,500, $1,600 for rent and utilities.

Okay.

Are you on a budget?

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, I've been trying to kill things in my spending so that I can be like not Ramsey-ish, but like really doing this.

So I'm like, I feel like I sort of like probably got a failing grade the last couple of months, but this month I feel like I'm more like on track like serious about like not just kind of doing it uh you know yeah that's doing it that's what i was gonna ask when did you start what i'm trying to understand is how serious you are about this did you just get serious this month and you're like all right i'm doing it or have you been kind of lollygagging for like six months and now you're finally like okay i'm doing it because here's here's where i'm struggling and george you can chime in on the one hand i'm like you're here all by yourself i'm not going to tell you to spend christmas alone i kind of feel bad about that i would i would be okay with you saving up the money and doing this in cash, knowing that you're going to be debt-free in May.

But I am interested in your demeanor on this debt and what your patterns have been.

And

if a pattern of yours has been, I'm going to get serious about my debt.

And then something that looks good to you comes up and you stop and you take your foot off the gas.

If that's a pattern for you, I don't want to say yes to that.

Yeah, like

it's like there's a lot of tempting things.

Like my friends, my friends just always, like, they just come out of the woodwork.

I'm like, I didn't know all these friends that want to go out to eat all the time, you know?

Do you have friends locally that you can spend Christmas with that you would love to spend Christmas with?

Um, I mean, I have a lot of church friends, but like a lot of them are older than me because, and which I think is pretty cool because they're pretty wise folks.

But I mean, uh,

I mean, I don't know if I'll hang like spend Christmas with them or nothing, but I got a lot of church friends and community, though.

Do you have anybody do you know anybody who's done this Ramsey plan that you're close to?

No, I haven't.

I haven't found anybody.

And how old are you, Joe?

I know maybe one guy at church that

I'm 30.

You're 30.

Okay.

Yeah.

Man,

I'm on the fence here.

I'm not super convinced that this is like a one and done.

I think this is one of many things that are going to trip you up on this debt-free journey.

And you make a lot of money.

I just feel like I would be okay with you missing one Christmas.

We're not saying never have fun again.

But if you didn't go, I've done this here where I was an orphan one Christmas and some friends here said, hey, just come over for a Christmas dinner.

And I go hang with them.

And that way I'm not alone.

And I also didn't blow a thousand bucks to go, you know, on a, on a vacation.

I also,

listen, people are going to, we sound like the biggest Scrooges.

I also, I'm going to tell you what else is starting to play into my, my thoughts here.

If you are like, and I'm not saying that this is a great idea.

If you you were like 23, I'd be like, oh man, this guy's got to go home for Christmas.

But I'm like, you're 30.

You're kind of in your own life.

You don't.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Have you missed a Christmas yet booth?

Like, are you a, I go home for Christmas every single year, no matter what?

No, no, I mean, I um, I really want to, honestly, like, a big part is I want to go see my nephews and nieces.

And there's like multiple of them that are like, like, five and younger, and they're just like so much fun.

And like, when was the last time you saw him?

Uncle.

And they're like uh i've seen him i've seen him like

uh

i think i've seen him i think recently i can't crap my my memory's terrible but this year like this year okay okay well here's my thing i wonder if we do like a delayed trip once you're debt-free

then we go in in the springtime

and that lights a fire under you to get out of debt faster versus slowing down your progress

Yeah, I was kind of thinking about that.

So that's my heart behind it.

It's not so Joe has a sad Christmas.

It's so Joe gets debt-free faster and then does this thing completely debt-free with no guilt, no shame, no debt to come back to.

And you're a free man come summertime.

I mean, you could spend three weeks there.

Have a great time.

Yeah, yeah.

I've done that a few times.

It's pretty, pretty nice.

Yeah, because the longer you stay in Hawaii, the more money you spend.

I'm guessing it's like $150 a day just to live in Hawaii.

You just leave the house and spend that.

I would even, or

let me add this one to the mix.

It's October.

So you have

two months and a week.

I would give yourself a challenge since you're driving Uber too.

I'd say, I have to have X amount of dollars of debt paid off if I'm going to take this trip.

I like to compromise.

I have to have

12, you know, let's see, your rent is $1,600.

I try to replace my rent and side hustles.

That's what I try to do.

And I would say, okay, that's the goal.

Do you see what I'm saying?

And then you're getting the best of both worlds.

You're getting to be there with your family for Christmas, but you're also really going hard and you're giving yourself a clear goal so that you're not kind of like, I get to go.

I can kind of pull my foot off gas.

I would do that.

I would challenge yourself to have like,

I don't know, the majority of this paid off.

I would go crazy.

I'd be like, I'm going to pay off like $12,000 or $15,000 of this debt really, really fast.

I'm going to, my goal is to put $5,000 on it in November, $5,000 in December, and then another $2,000.

Do it.

I like this plan, Joe.

I like the compromise.

I just, I think we just wanted to feel some fire from Joe.

Just get crazy with Joe.

It's just not hot enough.

It's just lukewarm right now and looking for the next trip.

But I'm rooting for you, man.

Let us know if you end up going.

We want to know where they are now.

Mm-hmm.

When you're tired of feeling stuck with money, there's just one solution.

To get different results, you have to do something different.

No one accidentally wins with money.

You have to have a game plan, and that begins with our get started assessment.

Go to ramseysolutions.com slash start, answer some questions, and we'll show you what steps to take next.

Don't stay stuck.

Take control of your money starting today.

Go with ramseysolutions.com/slash start.

Welcome back to the Ramsey Show.

On the debt-free stage, we have the pleasure of speaking with Jeff and Danielle.

How are you guys?

We're great.

We're doing great.

Thanks for making the trip to be here.

Where are you from?

Tucson, Arizona.

Thanks for having us.

Lovely.

Okay, how much debt did you pay off?

$329,000.

Wow.

That'll do.

And how long did that take?

About 12 years.

About 12 years.

Wow, quite the journey.

And what was the range of income over 12 years?

We started at $155,000 and last year was $327.

Wow, nice job.

What do you guys do for work?

I'm a pilot.

I work for a big company out in Memphis with a bunch of purple tails.

Oh, yeah.

I've seen those.

And previous.

I'm sorry.

And I'm an office manager for a concierge physician's office.

Okay.

Awesome.

I'm getting a sense here about this 329.

I like it.

Okay.

Tell us what kind of debt was the 329?

Now, 33,000 was our truck, which we still have, and the rest was our house.

I knew it.

I knew it.

It's almost 300 grand on that mortgage.

And you guys just plow through the truck and then go, you know what?

We're pretty good at this debt payoff thing what if we just kept going what was this journey like we had a lot of life between you know 12 years we

financed with their scholarships and their hard work three kids through college debt oh my goodness yeah all useful degrees yeah

you raised some great kids along the way that's that's no easy feat yeah we just kept rolling walking through the baby steps what got you connected to the ramsey plan

Well, about five years before we actually started the plan,

I brought the idea to Jeff, and at that time I was a stay-at-home mom, and our income just perhaps didn't support it in his eyes.

So

I think his suggestion was we should just stop buying stuff.

And it's a good suggestion.

Five years later,

he came to me with the idea.

So then it was right.

Wow.

Then it was the right time.

So this was like early 2000s?

Probably

2008 or so, the first time I brought it up.

Yeah.

You've heard of Dinks, right?

Dual-income.

We were Oinks, one income numerous kids oh my goodness so you were you were feeling the stress yeah you heard about dave and then five years into this thing you go i think we know what we need to do yeah you know what our big problem is we we've been in our house a long time so it was appreciating so we kept refinancing it you know we bought the american way we bought a rental property you know and vehicles and we didn't put in a really nice pool and a yard you know our house isn't like the gathering place for our family so that's awesome yeah yeah wow and so what was the what was the journey like when you got started?

Was it a hard shift?

We moved through two and three relatively quickly.

And then we were on track to pay it off by my 60th birthday, which is about a year and a half.

And fortunately, my parents just passed away in May and June, so we inherited enough to go ahead and finish it up.

Kicking over the edge, yeah.

So how much of this was the inheritance that helped you finish?

Just $64,000 or so.

That's what was it.

Like I said, we were on track to do it about a year and a half from now.

Wow.

Well, sorry for your loss, but what a legacy to leave.

Thank you.

93 years old.

It's like they were looking down going, we got you.

We're proud of you.

So how does it feel?

Kind of unreal still.

It's only been a couple months.

We're still trying to get used to, you know,

not having a house payment and all that money sitting in the checking account going.

Sure.

What do we do with that?

That's a good problem to have.

I'm sure the kids are like, I think we have some ideas.

We have some trips we've left for you to take us on.

Yeah, are you going to do anything to celebrate?

Yeah.

I don't know if you've heard this, but it gets hot in Tucson.

It does, man.

So when it starts getting hot in 27, we're going to get a newer camper, and we're going to go north to Idaho, across to Maine, and then down the East Coast and back home.

Hit all the states that I've never been in.

I'll still be going to work.

You know, I'll jump seat to work from wherever she's at.

Sure.

She'll hang out and volunteer at the Humane Society or go see the kids or whatever.

And I have a sinking fund going to go to dog training school.

Oh, wow.

That's one of my passions.

So when I can hang up the full-time job, that's my place.

Encore career.

Can you train my French bulldogs?

I will do.

You could be

a bad one.

You're like Cesar Milan in my book.

You guys are an inspiration.

Were the kids watching this whole time?

Because you got grown kids seeing this journey.

Was that weird to bring them into it?

Well,

they were in high school

when we started.

And they've been, yeah, I mean, Dave Ramsey might be a swear word and invoke an eye roll around our house.

Yeah.

Do they take to it?

Like, are they like, hey, we want to live debt-free now?

Or are they like, oh, gross?

No.

They're all on board.

Well, they're here now, so it'd be awesome.

Because they're used cars and everything.

Yeah.

Wow.

Wow.

And how old are the kids?

Our oldest is 26.

He's married and in the Air Force, so he couldn't be here.

Then our next son is Andrew.

He's 25, and our daughter is 21.

Wow.

Way to go.

And they're looking at their parents like, that's pretty cool that my parents did this.

While many Americans out there hang on to their mortgages until their dying breath and then leave their kids with a mess to deal with.

And oh, my goodness.

Was anyone around you doing any sort of plan like this, or were you kind of on an island?

We

each supported each other, but we hosted FPU.

That's when we went through it at our house with some family and neighbors from church.

And then I hosted it at, I used to work for the Department of Homeland Security.

Uh-huh.

Oh.

So I was flying for them, and I did the government edition at work.

Holy swamps, that's awesome.

Yeah, it was good.

Okay, so what's the house worth?

About $600,000.

Woo!

And what do you guys have in the retirement nest eggs combined?

Go ahead.

1.7.

Hey, okay, way to go.

Okay, so well beyond Baby Steps Millionaires.

You guys were there a long time ago.

Yeah, yeah.

But now this just adds to it with no payment.

So what's the Baby Steps 7

look like for you guys?

What are you looking forward to doing across spending, saving, giving?

All above.

Yes.

I'm going to build an airplane in my garage.

Whoa.

So I've got the wing kit, or it comes in kits.

How big is your garage?

It's a good-sized garage.

Okay.

How do you fit it?

Eventually you'll have to go to the airport.

It'll be in a hangar somewhere.

That's exciting.

So she's going to be dog dog training you're going to be building airplanes and and we hope to be real generous with our grandkids in terms of their education when that time comes oh that's fantastic

well you guys are who i want to be when i grow up

very inspired by your story what would you tell people the key to becoming dead-free is

eye on the prize yeah it just it can be a long journey as you see it took us 12 years i think most of your families pay off their mortgage in about seven but we started the path just in time to help kids get through school and and life happens.

So I would say give yourself a little bit of grace too because there are going to be bumps in the road.

Just rely on your partner.

And stick with the plan.

You know, the plan works, you know.

Wow.

That's fantastic.

Well, I'm honored you guys decided to join us today.

We've got some parting gifts for you.

Okay.

We've got two every dollar premium subscriptions.

So you can use those.

You can give them to maybe one of the kids who's on the journey.

It's up to you what you do with that.

Okay.

Thank you.

That's our way of saying thank you for being out here.

Awesome.

All right.

I'm excited for this one.

You guys ready?

I think we're ready.

All right.

It's Jeff and Danielle.

$329,000 paid off the truck and then they kept plowing through the mortgage in 12 years making 155 all the way up to 327 thousand dollars count it down let's hear a debt-free scream three two one we're debt free

That warms my heart.

Never gets old.

Yeah, that's awesome.

And I love it.

So awesome.

I love that this as a couple who went, hey, this isn't going to happen tomorrow.

But if we're just focused on this goal, it's going to happen within a decade.

We're going to be around in a decade.

So do we want to do it?

Debt-free, or do we want to keep refinancing as the offers keep coming in?

We can get a bigger line of credit on the house.

Like all of it, it's crazy how much will come at you during the steps on the financial journey of people trying to come at your money and come at your equity and move you backwards.

Yes.

And you've got to stay alert and proactive just to stay forward.

That's right.

That's right.

And eventually that's exactly what they did.

I I mean,

consider the fact that the average American mortgage is a 30-year mortgage.

And then we say, hey, be different, get a 15-year.

And then to still turn around and pay that off in 12, I think is, I think that's great.

I think if you can pay off a mortgage in 12 years, that is a win in life.

That is a win in my book.

And all it takes is you doing a little bit, just a little bit extra, right?

This is not you being intense, intense.

This is just intentionality.

I have a little bit of extra money.

I'm going to throw it on here.

Maybe it's an extra half payment.

Maybe it's an extra full payment.

Maybe it's once a quarter.

Maybe it's every month.

You get to decide what that looks like.

And before you know it, you're standing where they are.

Yeah, if you're in their shoes, you're in that four, five, six territory.

I encourage you guys, jump on ramseysolutions.com, use our mortgage payoff calculator.

We'll put it in the show notes.

And you'll be shocked at how just an extra payment a year makes a difference, how much interest it saves you, how much closer it gets you to freedom.

And then what I found is it gets addictive.

And you go, what if we did two payments a year?

Yeah.

What if we did a thousand extra a month?

What could that do?

And then it just becomes we learn to live on what's left and we learn to be content.

And that level of focus gets you debt-free really fast.

Baby steppers do it on average in about seven years.

Yep.

And the average millionaire on our millionaire study, 10 years.

Wow.

So let that be your goalpost: to go, can I do this within seven to ten years?

Can we be completely debt-free?

And again, if you give yourself some grace, maybe it takes 11 or 12, you're still so far ahead of the game.

Still a win.

You can do this, guys.

And they're living proof.

Our scripture of the day, Hebrews 10, 34.

Let's keep a firm grip on the promises that keep us going.

He always keeps his word.

Norman Vincent Peale said, promises are like crying babies in a theater.

They should be carried out at once.

Hey.

Wow.

Listen.

I love that.

As a guy with a newborn in the house, let me tell you, that really speaks to me right now.

I love that quote.

I can't really carry him out because I'm with him, you know.

I do the AirPods trick, though.

I got noise cancellation on to keep my cortisol levels low.

Oh, okay.

And they're just,

I'm just like,

you know what I do when I go on flights?

If I see that there's a mom with the baby, I'll sit next to them because I'm an angel.

Well, because it's like, I'm used to it.

It doesn't bother me.

Yeah.

God bless.

Jade's just a better person than all of us.

I'm like,

how many rows can I get away from the baby?

No, I'll try to be nice because it's not fun when you're the one with the screaming baby and you're sitting next to somebody who's so annoyed and they're so mad.

And you're like, I'm doing the best I can here.

Yeah, I'll take that over a toddler though because they'll be kicking that seat.

And I'm like a toddler?

Yeah.

I'm not trying to fight a toddler today, but you better put that baby in check.

Don't be kicking my seat.

All right.

Let's go to James in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania.

What's going on, James?

Oh, not much.

How are you doing?

Better than we deserve, my friend.

How can we help?

I'm calling on behalf of my parents.

My parents recently asked me to attend their financial advisor meeting with them.

And

I'm not sure.

I've been listening to Dave Ramsey for a while, and it doesn't seem like it's what Dave would recommend or what you guys would recommend.

So they're roughly right at like half a million dollars or $475,000.

And a third of that is in an annuity fund that will, once they start retire, they'll start paying out X number of dollars, like $10,000 or something a year.

Yep.

What kind of annuity is it?

Do you know?

It's with, I don't know if I can say the name.

What do I mean?

Is it like a fixed annuity variable index?

There's all kinds of types.

Yeah, I have no idea.

I assume it's growing value of some sort.

Like the cash value is much, like 156 of it is cash value.

If they pulled it out and there's like 220-some actual value in it.

Okay.

I don't know if it's a well, in general, we are not a fan of annuities.

They may have a time and place.

I can tell you, Dave Ramsey has zero annuities.

They make sense for very few people.

And the issue, one of the biggest issues I have with them is they're expensive.

They make the advisors a whole lot of money.

And so that's my only fear.

I'm not saying they're a bad person.

They may have a reason to do this, but I have a lot of my red flags go up.

My spidey senses start tingling when I hear that someone's getting pushed into annuities.

Did your parents want this for a reason?

Like, are they scared of market risks?

Because that's usually who this is for.

You know, I think I don't know that they're necessarily scared of market risk.

It's more they want to be able to sustain through

their retirement.

Okay.

My mom's 62.

She's not planning on retiring today.

Like, she's going to work a few more years and retire, but they want to move the whole thing into this.

And it just doesn't seem it's like you have enough money in my eyes to sustain off interest because they live a super

super uh within their means lifestyle yeah are they in baby step seven with a paid-for house no debt

correct yep okay james how's your how's your financial situation

uh my wife and i are in baby step two where we basically have a truck to pay off yet and that's it So I love that you're going with them on this and that they invited you to go to this meeting.

I would

the hard part about this is you're not where they're at yet.

And to offer advice in that area could could be tough unless they're asking you, James, what do you think we should do?

Are they?

Yes, they definitely asked me for advice.

They asked me to come along because I've been ranting and raving to them about you guys for the past two years and how I'm excited to get.

debt-free or my wife and I are excited to be debt-free.

And they're like, well,

they really weren't involved in their investment.

I feel like they received some money from my grandma when she passed, and they just kind of took the financial advisor's word for it and said, just here's the money.

So if you suggested and said, hey, you know, I came with you guys.

Here's what I heard.

I'd love for you guys to get set up with a

smart vestor

from Ramsey to get a better idea.

To get a second opinion.

This is the people I've been getting advice from that I've been telling you about.

Do you think that they would do that?

Yeah, and I already recommended that to them.

I said,

I want to sit down with someone else.

Like, I don't

know, I don't trust your advisor, but I want to get someone else's opinion type thing.

What'd they say to that?

And

my mom's all for it.

So my dad's not in the best health.

So he's not

fully involved with leaving to go meet with people, stuff like that.

Yeah.

So you, you know, if she's open to it, you set her up with the smart vestor.

Maybe you sit in on that conversation too if your dad's not able to sit in.

And I think that's where you take it from there.

The great news is that they're open, which I think is wonderful, maybe a little too open with the other advisor, but yeah.

I think they need to, we always say, don't invest in anything you don't understand.

And so until they fully understand it, and I would not just trust the advisor's explanation because they're clearly going to do a good job selling them on it.

But I'll tell you this: fixed annuities, if that's what they're in, barely keep up with inflation.

If it's variable annuities, it's one of the most expensive and complicated financial products out there.

And then indexed annuities is another form, and it's similar to index universal life insurance where it's tied to an index.

And so the returns are tied to that.

And there's caps on gains and protection against losses and all that.

But the key here is with that one is subpower returns and super high fees.

And that's always my concern when you're trying to mix this insurance product with investment.

So not to say there isn't a time or place for it.

If they really want the guaranteed returns or the estate planning benefits and they're in Baby Step 7 and they have amassed a serious amount of wealth.

Maybe it's an option if they're super spooked by the market.

I don't think that's the case here.

And so,

your spidey senses are right.

I would get a second opinion and try to advise them against this.

Do you know what they're invested in right now in this portfolio?

I do not.

No, I literally got sat down with their advisor like two weeks ago.

This is the first time they actually left me into their finances or brought me into the loop and asked for my opinion on things.

Well, that means they also had a little bit of a red flag.

That's right.

And so if you want to see them retire with dignity, I would stay away from this annuity based on what you've told me.

And you can jump on ramseysolutions.com and get connected with a Smart Vestor Pro that can give you that second opinion.

But you're a good son, man.

Or at the very least, just leaving it as, you know, leaving it as a bunch of people.

And broken.

You know, don't fix it.

Yeah, if it's not already in the annuity.

Good mutual funds and all that and good equities, and I wouldn't mess with it.

But Diane is in Chicago up next.

What's going on, Diane?

Hi.

Thank you so much for taking my call.

I love you guys.

Thank you.

I started listening to the Ramsey show about six months ago.

My son actually got me hooked up with you guys.

And you guys ask a lot of times about people's net worth.

And I understand the concept of, you know, assets minus liabilities, but I'm a retired police officer.

And I receive a defined benefits pension.

And so I didn't know if that should be considered as an asset, and if so, how to quantify it.

you know there are some fancy complex calculations you can do to kind of find the present and future value of your pension so that might be one way to do it the other way is just to figure out what is the actual cash value today

is there a lump sum if you took a lump sum what would it be

there isn't there isn't that option okay so you can go online and use a pension calculator and find out what the value actually is and you can add that to your net worth net worth is one indicator of how well you're doing financially It doesn't present the whole picture.

And so you can add in what you've put into the pension as a way to calculate it into your net worth and use that.

But there's no simple way to say, well, my pension is, you know, $4,000 a month, and so it's going to be X added to my net worth.

It doesn't really add to the balance sheet in a perfect way, but you can use calculations to get you an idea.

The key is, are you going to be able to retire with dignity based on the income streams you have from your investments plus pension?

Yes, I'm currently working now.

I have an encore career now,

and that has a 401k that I've been putting 15% into.

And between my pension and my

investments, I think I'm going to be fine.

Yeah, what's your net worth without the pension?

$640.

Awesome.

And you still got a ways to go in the workforce?

About five years.

Awesome.

You're doing great, Diane.

Yeah, I'd keep climbing.

If you can get that net worth and nest egg to a million bucks plus a pension, I think we're in good shape, Diane.

And you can get connected with the SmartVestor Pro to help you calculate that as well.

That puts this hour of the rainbow to show in the books.

Until next time, remember, there's ultimately only one way to financial peace, and that's to walk daily with the friends of peace, Christ Jesus.