How A Bigger Paycheck Could Lead To Bigger Problems

Speaker 1 Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, it's the Ramsey Show, where we help people build wealth, do work that they love, and create amazing relationships. I'm George Campbell, joined by Dr.

Speaker 1 John Deloney, best-selling author of Building a Non-Anxious Life.

Speaker 1 I guess I'm an aspiring best-selling author, John. I just pre-launched a book, and I hope that it's successful as yours.

Speaker 1 It's called Breaking Free from Broke, and it's on pre-sale right now at ramseysolutions.com slash store.

Speaker 2 Work hard, George.

Speaker 1 Aspiring.

Speaker 2 May you accomplish all of your dreams.

Speaker 1 But we're both YouTubers, so we succeeded in that regard.

Speaker 2 If that's success,

Speaker 1 well, let's take some calls. The number is 888-825-5225.
We'll help you take the right next step with your money, your mental health, your relationships, whatever it is. We will give you our advice.

Speaker 1 That is a guarantee. All right, let's start with Jessica in Boston.
What's going on, Jessica?

Speaker 3 Hi. So, I am wondering how my husband and I have we're a family of five.

Speaker 5 We have three kids, five and under.

Speaker 6 We both work.

Speaker 4 We make a very good living north of 300K a year, which almost 50 of it is tax-free because my husband receives VA disability pay monthly.

Speaker 11 But we are we've had several

Speaker 9 crises, I guess, come up the past two years.

Speaker 4 And we were debt-free, but now we've due to the unexpected occurrences,

Speaker 4 we're now living beyond our means, paycheck to paycheck, have no savings, and

Speaker 4 our emotional, our physical health is taking a toll, our marriage is taking a toll, and we want to stop living paycheck to paycheck.

Speaker 5 How do we get out of this?

Speaker 8 And how can we repair?

Speaker 4 the relationship along the way.

Speaker 1 I'm sorry to hear what you're going through. Yeah, what happened? What were the crises?

Speaker 15 Yeah, so we,

Speaker 4 the height of the real estate market, right?

Speaker 9 We sold our first house.

Speaker 7 You know, this is our opportunity to get debt-free.

Speaker 4 We were probably, I want to say between $50,000 to $65,000 in debt.

Speaker 4 At the height of the market in 2021, we sold our first home, walked away, got free,

Speaker 5 paid off the entirety of our debt.

Speaker 4 And then I got pregnant with our third child.

Speaker 9 I was only six months postpartum

Speaker 4 and I was actually struggling with postpartum depression in the interim.

Speaker 15 We had major complications.

Speaker 4 I was in preterm labor for almost three months

Speaker 4 and I am the breadwinner between me and him.

Speaker 7 Very high-pressured

Speaker 6 software.

Speaker 4 sales technology sales, I should say,

Speaker 17 job,

Speaker 4 which forced me to need to take a medical leave of absence due to my postpartum getting so bad.

Speaker 4 It was literally for the safety of myself and my family that I had to take a medical leave. And the day I returned to work, I was laid off.

Speaker 18 In turn, we literally two weeks, yeah, it was bad.

Speaker 12 So two, I want to say a month prior to me going back to work, we had just closed on a new home, our forever home, and

Speaker 16 the bills piled up quick.

Speaker 1 So how much debt are you in now?

Speaker 14 It's probably,

Speaker 4 I want to say between $22,000 to $25,000 total.

Speaker 1 And what kind of debt?

Speaker 4 Yeah, so it's unsecured loan debt, credit card debt.

Speaker 3 Should I include the car or no?

Speaker 1 Yes, that's debt, isn't it?

Speaker 7 Okay, then it goes up from there.

Speaker 4 So I would tack on a total, an additional $60,000.

Speaker 1 So you're probably $85,000 in consumer debt.

Speaker 2 Are you back to working now?

Speaker 4 I am. I am.
I found a new job fairly soon within a month, and I am working.

Speaker 2 Are you still making $300,000?

Speaker 4 It's going to take some time to build the pipeline again.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 2 What's your husband do?

Speaker 8 Yeah, he works for the government,

Speaker 4 and he was a Marine, and now he works for the government as a safety inspector for OSHA.

Speaker 2 So I'm going to let George talk you through this debt situation, but I want to say a couple things, okay?

Speaker 2 Okay. The first thing is, I'm really, really glad you're still here.

Speaker 2 Thank you. Thank you.

Speaker 2 Making that call when you're holding a baby is one of the scariest calls you can make, right?

Speaker 12 It is. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Because there's that demon telling you that they're going to take your baby away. People are going to say you're crazy and they're going to lock you up.
And I'm so, so proud of you for doing that.

Speaker 2 That's hard.

Speaker 2 And we're good now, right?

Speaker 16 For the most, most of the time.

Speaker 2 Well, I do have moments. Yes.
There you go.

Speaker 2 Let me ask it this way. You're always going to be around here, right?

Speaker 2 Yes, for sure. Good.

Speaker 2 The second thing is, if you haven't already, there's going to come a moment when y'all are going to have to, and the quicker you get here, the quicker you can begin to do the...

Speaker 2 walk the path that George's going to lay out for you. You're going to have to make peace with,

Speaker 2 grieve the crap out of, but make peace with, here's the life we had, and now here's the one we're in right now.

Speaker 20 Okay.

Speaker 2 The more you try to quote unquote, get back to what we had, the more you're going to make yourself nuts because you're just going to run in a circle.

Speaker 2 You're going to be dragging what used to be.

Speaker 2 Right. So we used to have $60,000 cars.
We don't anymore. We're a Camry family now.

Speaker 2 We used to have a humongous house and we had our forever house. It's not our forever house anymore.
You and me are forever husband, but the house isn't. And that's okay.
Okay.

Speaker 2 And we used to make 300 grand, now we don't. And maybe one day we will again, but that's not the world we're in right now.
And so when you make peace existentially with those moments, then

Speaker 2 remember we had Alexis? Yeah, but now we got now we got a Corolla and it gets us where we need to go.

Speaker 2 And you got a bunch of dope Marine tattoos, but you're going to look awesome smoking hot, getting out of a Camry. That's just the world we have now.

Speaker 2 Right?

Speaker 2 And it's not less than. It's just different.
It's different. And it'll be back.
It'll be back. You're a hustler.
Your husband's a brilliant guy. I mean, you'll be back.

Speaker 2 But let's make peace with that new world. Right.

Speaker 2 And that new world is awesome, by the way.

Speaker 1 It's top 1% of planet Earth.

Speaker 2 It's a great world. Just, we've got to let go of what used to be.
Used to be awesome, and then we got laid off, and it sucks, and here we are now. Now it's awesome again.

Speaker 2 Just a different kind of awesome.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 1 So, Jessica, this is going to start with some simple math, but it's going to end with some sacrifice and behavior change. You ready for it?

Speaker 14 Absolutely.

Speaker 4 Okay.

Speaker 2 Is your husband on board, too?

Speaker 1 This is an important factor. He is.
He knows how you feel about all this.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 1 We're going to get you to solid ground, and I'll give you some options. It'll be a choose your own adventure.
My guess is your take-home pay is somewhere around $15,000 a month.

Speaker 2 Yes. Okay.
Correct.

Speaker 1 So let's look at what our expenses are. What do we need to keep the household running? And you're going to do that with a budget.
I'm going to gift it to you. It's called Every Dollar.

Speaker 1 I'm going to give you the premium version. It's going to have paycheck planning, connect to your bank account, all the good stuff.

Speaker 1 Your homework is to list out every single expense you have as a family and ruthlessly cut out the stuff that doesn't matter that you don't need right now. You got that?

Speaker 1 Okay. Give me a rough estimate of what that would add up to.
Five grand?

Speaker 14 For cutting out or the

Speaker 1 total expenses that would keep the house running. Food, shelter, utilities, transportation, all that.

Speaker 2 Probably 12.

Speaker 2 12 grand.

Speaker 4 Yep.

Speaker 4 With our nanny included, child care included.

Speaker 2 Oh my.

Speaker 1 Okay, this is where, remember those sacrifices I mentioned, Jessica?

Speaker 1 This is where we might have to figure out how to get that 12 grand down to five so we have 10,000 to throw at the debt and we can be done in eight months.

Speaker 1 That might mean selling the cars if you can't make those sacrifices.

Speaker 2 That means letting the nanny go for a season.

Speaker 1 This is not going to be fun, but your life on the other side is going to be way better for it. So hang on the line.
We'll gift you every dollar. We are wishing you the best.

Speaker 1 Welcome back to the Ramsey Show. I'm George Campbell, joined by Dr.
John Deloney. Today's question of the day is brought to to you by YReFi.

Speaker 1 YReFi refinances defaulted private student loans, defaulted meaning when the borrower can't make the required payments. So, if that describes you and you've got private student loans, contact YReFi.

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That's the letter Y, R-E-F-Y.com/slash Ramsey. Might not be available in all states.

Speaker 2 Today's question comes from Andrea in Arkansas. My husband's mom inherited the family hunting ranch.
Oh, I would love to get this call one day. Which is worth about a million dollars.

Speaker 2 My husband and I pay most of the expenses. We use our personal equipment to maintain it, and we are the ones who schedule and host hunters.
I also handle all the bookkeeping. Andrea, call me.

Speaker 2 So I told my mother-in-law that an LLC needs to be created for the amount of business we do. She met with her attorney, and now the ranch is now only in hers and my husband's name.

Speaker 2 I feel like she's trying to cause a rift between my husband and me. I'm

Speaker 2 trying trying not to

Speaker 2 judge their family history, but every

Speaker 2 one of the other four kids are divorced. This seems to be her way of creating an easy way out of it if we were to divorce.

Speaker 2 My husband and I have a strong relationship, and he assures me not to worry because this will change nothing in our marriage.

Speaker 2 But I'm the one doing all the legwork and hoping this doesn't mess up our relationship. Am I wrong for voicing my opinion in this matter? What happens if my husband unexpectedly passed away?

Speaker 2 We have two questions.

Speaker 2 We have two kids that will need to be cared for, and we earn nothing from the ranch.

Speaker 1 Those last four words tell me a whole lot.

Speaker 1 That's really the resentment. She's putting a whole lot of work in.
She's getting zero dollars for it, and her name's not attached to it. So there seems to be, that's all playing into this picture.

Speaker 2 Yeah,

Speaker 2 this is a mess.

Speaker 1 They use their personal equipment to maintain it.

Speaker 1 They're the ones scheduling, doing all the, she's doing the bookkeeping, and she's the one handling, telling the mother-in-law to meet with this person. And I personally don't know the full story.

Speaker 1 i don't know if the mother-in-law is being malicious if this is really a strategic move this was inherited family land and property right that she inherited so there's the the daughter-in-law doesn't have a right to this land even though she's doing work for for this property right and i

Speaker 2 yeah so there's multiple things happening here i think george i think one of them is um you're running a business that doesn't make any money stop stop running a business that doesn't make money who is making the money that's the question uh The only thing I could think of.

Speaker 1 So we earn nothing. So like the husband, or she's not getting anything.
The husband's not, is mom making all the money?

Speaker 2 Yeah, so if husband is using all of his tools and stuff like that to help, because he wants to help out mom, and he's the one good kid. He's the

Speaker 2 all the other kids are divorced and causing problems, and he's the one good kid. So he's just going to dump some money into this thing.

Speaker 2 That's one thing.

Speaker 2 It's mom's property and she wants to bring on your husband as a co-owner of an LLC in case she passes away it's easy to go to him I wouldn't lose sleep over that but the fact that you're asking this question tells me there's something else going on here and if you had trust in your mother-in-law because of the way she has treated you in the past and this came up you wouldn't think twice about it right if my in-laws one of my in-laws uh my father-in-law or my mother-in-law um was to do a joint venture with my wife that I helped with, I wouldn't think twice about it because I trust both of them implicitly forever.

Speaker 2 This tells me there's other trust issues and that mom's maybe been trying to cut you up for a long time and this is another way she kind of edged anyway whole things messy. So I would ask this way.

Speaker 2 Number one,

Speaker 2 if your husband likes hunting on this property and it's fun and he likes doing it and he likes to make a little side muscle side money bringing in hunters in y'all figured that out.

Speaker 2 Even if you bring in side money and all it does is pay the taxes on the land and pays for the feeders. Fine.

Speaker 2 If husband's trying to do this to win mom's favor and maybe one day she'll leave it to him, hopefully, if she, and now we're getting into messy stuff.

Speaker 2 And if you're running a business that's not earning anything, you'll need to have that conversation. Yeah.
Whole thing's a mess. But I want to go back to this

Speaker 2 one question here.

Speaker 2 Am I wrong for voicing my opinion on this matter? If you are a part of a marriage where both people have a voice and both people can be heard and to say what's on their hearts and on their minds, no,

Speaker 2 no.

Speaker 2 If you have voiced your opinion and your husband said, I don't care. Don't worry about it.

Speaker 2 Then nagging or complaining or going to war is not going to solve the problem. Then your marriage has deeper issues, which is your husband doesn't really care what your opinion is on these matters.

Speaker 2 He's going to do what he's going to do. Y'all need to address that core issue, right? Yeah.

Speaker 1 And talk to him. You said, what happens if my husband unexpectedly passed away? Figure out what the will looks like and what the estate planning journey looks like and what will happen with this

Speaker 1 LLC that he's a part of.

Speaker 1 I think you have a right to know what would happen there. But I also wouldn't, I feel like there's just more resentment here because of the effort she's putting in.

Speaker 1 So maybe she goes, I'm gonna back out of this, and y'all can hire a bookkeeper.

Speaker 2 That's exactly right. You can hire a bookkeeper, you can hire somebody who is booking these hunts.
I'm gonna step out and just be with the kids. There you go.

Speaker 2 And it's not a job, it's not like we're gonna lose money on it. And y'all knock your lights out if that's something y'all want to do on the side.
Not much to lose here.

Speaker 1 All right, let's go to the phones. Daniel is in Cleveland up next.
What's going on, Daniel?

Speaker 14 Hi, thanks guys for taking my call.

Speaker 2 Sure. How can we help?

Speaker 14 So I'm 23 years old. My wife is 24.
We have a three-month-old daughter. My wife stays at home.
I'm a nurse. Our yearly income is probably around $60,000.

Speaker 14 We bought a house around six months ago. We have about a $150,000 loan at like 5.6% interest, I think.

Speaker 14 So my question is, we have about $100,000 in our in a high-yield savings account. I mean, it looks like we'll end up getting another $100,000

Speaker 14 from like an inheritance, basically, within the next month.

Speaker 14 We have zero debt. I'm just, I guess, just like looking forward, I guess, should I be paying off my home?

Speaker 14 I just don't know exactly

Speaker 14 what to do with the money. I just don't want it to sit there.

Speaker 1 Yeah. So the $100,000 and the high yield, does that include your emergency fund? Is that built into that?

Speaker 14 Yeah, that's built into that, yes.

Speaker 1 Okay, so what number would that be? Let's separate it out.

Speaker 14 I think probably around 20,000.

Speaker 1 So 80,000 is freed up. You've got 100 coming in from the inheritance.
You owe $150,000 on the mortgage. I would pay off the house as soon as that inheritance comes in.

Speaker 1 Okay. That's going to lower your expenses.
You've got a stay-at-home wife.

Speaker 1 It's going to free you up with more margin to build wealth, to give, to up the lifestyle, whatever it is you want to do with that.

Speaker 1 But that's absolutely what I would do, especially as you filter it through the baby steps. Are you guys currently investing 15% of your income?

Speaker 14 No, we're not. So I haven't invested anything yet.

Speaker 14 I'm just starting to try to, I honestly haven't listened to Dave Ramsey much other than in the last few months. Cool.

Speaker 2 Welcome to the cult, brother. We're glad you're here.

Speaker 1 That means you're trying to better your finances and your family's future. So I love that.
So I would begin. I'm sure as a nurse, you have a retirement plan, right?

Speaker 14 Yeah, I think they match like, I think, 4% on a 401k. So I need to do that.
And then my wife actually has a Roth IRA that her father set up a long time ago.

Speaker 14 She hasn't put much money into it since then, but she has been building.

Speaker 1 You can deposit money into there because of a spousal Roth IRA.

Speaker 1 So even if that spouse isn't working, because you're married to, you know, she's married to you, you can have, you know, that earned income from you going into that account.

Speaker 1 So you could max out two Roth IRAs. You could put the 4% to get the match and invest that way.

Speaker 1 And I'll walk you through this in my book, Breaking Free from Broke, and show you that path to building wealth. So I'll send you a copy of that.

Speaker 1 But the spark notes here is I'd get that house paid off. What's your mortgage payment?

Speaker 14 It's around $1,200.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 1 So I'm guessing principal and interest

Speaker 1 is a big chunk.

Speaker 14 Oh, yeah. I mean, I think we're paying $800 in interest, just the way that they set up the, you know, the

Speaker 2 loan. Dude, what a gift to me.

Speaker 1 23 and 24 and not a payment in the world with plenty of money in the bank. If you just keep living like that, you're going to be a multi-millionaire giving very generously.

Speaker 2 You know what? If you pay the house off tomorrow, you just got a raise to $72,000 a year.

Speaker 14 Yeah, because of the,

Speaker 14 and it makes sense. I mean, I guess like

Speaker 14 for us, I just feel like I'm at somewhat of a pivotal point because I'm... Just don't know exactly what I want to do.

Speaker 14 I also am thinking about going back to school to try to increase, obviously, our yearly income. I'm really hoping my wife can continue to stay home.

Speaker 1 Well, no house payment with money money in the bank. You can cash flow school and it'll give you the margin to do that without needing seven side jobs so you can be there with those young kids.

Speaker 1 Bro, you don't have a house payment.

Speaker 1 This is a great place to be. You won!

Speaker 2 You won! If you don't screw this up and go take out stupid student loans, because if you're an anesthesiologist, don't take out any loans.

Speaker 2 Grind it. Take this extra money and spend it.
Invest it in yourselves. Bro, George, you're right, dude.
You won. You won.

Speaker 1 If you never have a payment again at 23 years old, you're going to be just fine, my man. Thanks for the call.
This is the Ramsey Show.

Speaker 1 Welcome back to the Ramsey Show. I'm George Campbell, joined by Dr.
John Deloney. Give us a call at 888-825-5225.

Speaker 1 If you want to jump into the conversation and talk about your money, your life, your relationships, your mental health, your boundaries, or lack thereof, we want to help you take the right next step.

Speaker 1 Shelly joins us up next in Dallas, Texas. Shelly, welcome to the show.

Speaker 22 Hi, thank you for taking my calls.

Speaker 23 I'm really just calling because

Speaker 23 I've been listening to the show a lot and I know the baby steps and everything and I know that I'm in a position where I can afford therapy, but my question is just, well, it's not more of a question.

Speaker 26 It's just an emotional issue around spending the money on therapy.

Speaker 16 I just feel bad.

Speaker 25 I know I need it and my husband supports me, but you know, just

Speaker 22 it just makes me feel bad to spend

Speaker 22 it costs a lot, and my insurance doesn't cover the

Speaker 22 license therapy part of it.

Speaker 2 So, what's it gonna cost

Speaker 1 for you to get this help?

Speaker 16 Well, I was looking at like BetterHelp, and you know, there's

Speaker 23 I even saw some more affordable options too, but

Speaker 16 so I did sign up with BetterHelp, and I'm just feeling like I'll try it for you know the first four weeks and then cancel it.

Speaker 16 I start something,

Speaker 23 I'll start it, and I started therapy before,

Speaker 26 but it was just costing like $100 a week.

Speaker 1 So do you feel like this is a wasteful expense in your budget right now? Like, hey, this money should be going toward this.

Speaker 1 What's behind that?

Speaker 2 I start feeling like, I don't know.

Speaker 22 And it's part of my anxiety.

Speaker 16 It's part of the reason why I think I need therapy.

Speaker 2 Well, I think it has nothing to do with money.

Speaker 2 I think money is the excuse that presents itself that gives you an out so that you don't have to go through

Speaker 2 this

Speaker 2 fire where healing's on the other side of it.

Speaker 16 Yeah, it could be. I don't know.

Speaker 2 I think you should go.

Speaker 28 It's all confusing.

Speaker 2 Honestly, I don't, I, the feelings might be confusing,

Speaker 2 but even if you guys were up to your eyeballs in debt and you needed to go to counseling, we would tell you to stop paying off your debt, pause, and go to counseling.

Speaker 2 Get the help you can care that you need.

Speaker 29 Yeah,

Speaker 16 I'm trying to wrap.

Speaker 25 I'm trying to, it's, it's, you can tell yourself, I know this is so important, my health, but it just feels,

Speaker 16 it just hurts to pay. I don't know.
I was raised poor.

Speaker 22 You know, I grew up in a poor family and we're doing really well now.

Speaker 23 And I just feel like

Speaker 2 we need to

Speaker 2 for the future. You know why? Because when you grew up, other people,

Speaker 2 Those people over there, they got counseling.

Speaker 2 They They took, quote-unquote, took care of themselves. We don't got time for that.
We don't need that. Only weaklings and wimps do that.

Speaker 14 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Right?

Speaker 22 Yeah, it was, you didn't even want to say, oh, I need therapists because you would, in my family, it would be like, oh, well, you're crazy.

Speaker 2 You know what? In your family, tell me if I'm wrong. In your family, you didn't say that you needed anything.

Speaker 23 No, I actually struggled with eating disorder and everything starting when I was a teenager.

Speaker 22 Now I'm in my 40s and having panic attacks.

Speaker 27 And I had a traumatic event last year, medical, with neuropathy for chronic pain for like eight months in my face.

Speaker 2 It's time.

Speaker 2 It's time.

Speaker 16 I can't sleep without heavy medicine.

Speaker 2 It's time.

Speaker 2 It's time.

Speaker 1 Whatever it takes. If there was a medication, Shelly, that was $300 a month, but it changed your life, would you say that was a worthy $300 to spend? That wasn't wasteful?

Speaker 26 Yeah, and well, I am spending a lot on my psychiatrist phone of medicine, so that's that I have to have that or I just can't function.

Speaker 2 But your psychiatrist has been telling you for a long time, I'm going to give you these meds, but you need to go talk to somebody, haven't they?

Speaker 21 Yeah, he did say CBT would help me.

Speaker 25 Correct.

Speaker 2 This time,

Speaker 1 I think we need to refile this in our brain as this is not a wasteful thing that I could be spending in this. And this is, it's too much in our budget into, hey, this is like paying for insurance.

Speaker 1 This is keeping the lights on. This is paying for the internet bill.
This is going to add so much utility and value to my life that I can't imagine not doing it. And it may not be forever.

Speaker 1 This may be a season that you go through and then it's over.

Speaker 26 Yeah. Yeah.
I was kind of wondering about, I know everyone's different, but I was wondering about like on average, kind of how

Speaker 26 long it could take.

Speaker 23 You know, I've had friends tell me, oh, it took so-and-so a year to

Speaker 16 really, but actually,

Speaker 2 if you've struggled with disordered eating since you were a child and you grew up in a pretty tough place, in a pretty tough situation and if you

Speaker 2 think so little of yourself

Speaker 2 that the idea of spending money to make sure you're whole and well so that you can show up for you and for your husband and for others if that shuts your body down or sets off your body's alarms it's going to be a while

Speaker 2 So I think it's counterproductive, or I'm telling you, it's counterproductive to say, okay, I'll give you four and then I quit.

Speaker 2 That's like going to the car dealer and saying, or to the mechanic and saying, hey,

Speaker 2 everything's broken on the car. You got 30 minutes and then I'm just going to come pick it up.

Speaker 16 Yeah.

Speaker 2 I want you to completely reframe that.

Speaker 16 I put the stress on myself that I put the stress on myself that I feel like I have to hurry up and fix myself in this amount of time.

Speaker 2 Well, right. And you're not somebody.
Listen, I used a bad analogy. You're not somebody to be fixed.
Okay. You're not broken.

Speaker 2 Your body's working exactly as it should, given the set of circumstances you you grew up in, plus some genetics. And what you're going to learn is different ways your body can get through a day.

Speaker 2 That's what counseling is going to do. It's going to let you practice.
It's going to teach you relationships. It's going to teach you some new skills.

Speaker 2 Over time, your body's going to learn: hey, we weren't safe then.

Speaker 2 We're safe now.

Speaker 2 All of that is worthy of an investment. Go.

Speaker 2 Don't think twice about it. And listen to this.
This is important. Your feelings are not designed to tell you the truth.
Your feelings are designed to keep you safe given a set of circumstances.

Speaker 2 So this morning, I did not feel like writing in a journal. I didn't.

Speaker 2 But I did it because I am a better husband and a better dad on the other side of that when I get all this crap out of my head and out of my body and onto a piece of paper.

Speaker 2 I will not feel like working out when I get home tonight. I won't feel like it at all.
I'm tired. It's the weekend.

Speaker 2 And I'm going to go do it because I promised myself I would and it makes me a better fill in the blank, a fill in the blank. So your feelings, I feel like I want to quit.
Cool. I get that.

Speaker 2 I'm going to acknowledge those feelings. That's real.

Speaker 2 And then I'm going to keep going. And I feel like I'm wasting money.
Cool.

Speaker 2 Your body grew up poor. It put a GPS pin in poverty.
It put a GPS pin and stopped spending money on, quote unquote, you getting well. Cool, I feel that.

Speaker 2 And I'm going to go anyway because I'm going to get well. I'm worth being well.

Speaker 1 That's a good word, John. And tactically, Shelly, adding this as a line item in your every dollar budget, that's a Shelly's therapy.

Speaker 1 And then, you know, what's going to happen is December, it's going to feel like, oh, gosh, that $300 came out for those sessions. Then January, it's like, oh, yeah, we have that in the budget.

Speaker 1 Then February, it's like, oh, yeah, we've had this in the budget. And all of a sudden, it becomes normal, especially as you excel through the baby steps and you get to a different place financially.

Speaker 1 There's expenses in my wife and I's budget that, you know, 23-year-old George would be like, whoa, that guy is blowing some money. And to us, it's, no, we're buying ourselves peace.

Speaker 1 We're buying our time back with some of these things. And it's therapy is not a luxury.
It is financially for people who can't afford it, but it's not a frivolous expense.

Speaker 1 It's definitely worth being well. And John talks about this in his new book, Building a Non-Axious Life, which I'd love to send Shelly a copy of that, John, if you don't mind.

Speaker 2 Absolutely. And stay on the line.
I'm going to hook you up with three free months of BetterHelp with my friends there, okay? I'm going to take that excuse away. Three free months of BetterHelp.

Speaker 2 But if you and your therapist decide, hey, it's probably best if you keep going, I want you to keep going and stay plugged in.

Speaker 1 That's very kind of you, John. You wield that kind of power here on the Ramsey show.

Speaker 2 I don't. I've got an extraordinary partner with BetterHelp, and they really, really care about people getting well.
And so it's their generosity, not mine.

Speaker 1 That's very kind. So hang on the line, Shelly.
We're going to send you a copy of Dr.

Speaker 1 John Deloney's best-selling book, Building a Non-Axious Life, and three months of BetterHelp on us to get you started on this path. We are cheering you on, and I'm proud of you.

Speaker 1 That's not an easy thing to call into a national radio show and put that all out there and go, I'm struggling with this. I want to get the help I need.

Speaker 1 And I know a lot of people are benefiting from this call who probably need to take that next step too, John.

Speaker 2 Dude, I remember being a six foot two, 195 pound Texas male sitting at my kitchen table while my little boy was asleep and my wife was asleep in the other room, weeping at my kitchen table because I knew I had to.

Speaker 2 And I also felt like such a wimp and such a weakling and such a coward and all those things. And I went.

Speaker 2 And it's changed everything.

Speaker 1 Go get the helping care that you need, kid.

Speaker 1 Thanks so much for the call, Shelly. More More of your calls coming up.
The number is 888-825-5225. We'll be right back.

Speaker 2 888-825-5225. This is the Ramsey Show.
I'm John Deloney. Joined here by my good friend George Camill.
Let's go out to Alexis in Phoenix. Hey, Alexis, what's happening?

Speaker 30 Hi, can you hear me okay?

Speaker 2 Absolutely. What's up?

Speaker 19 All right. So I'm 15.

Speaker 30 My mom just told me this morning that my parents have had to dip into their savings the past two months.

Speaker 31 Okay.

Speaker 30 My mom has stayed home with us and homeschooled us for 10 years,

Speaker 30 and she's going to have to get a part-time job.

Speaker 30 And I'm just wondering

Speaker 30 how my savings and how me saving for my future fits into that because I kind of feel guilty having extra money every month or having my own money putting into savings while they're struggling.

Speaker 32 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Man,

Speaker 2 they are lucky to have you as their kid.

Speaker 1 You are the oldest 15-year-old I've ever talked to.

Speaker 2 That's fantastic.

Speaker 2 Okay, I'm going to tell you something really hard to internalize, and you're going to hear these words, and

Speaker 2 your guts aren't going to believe me. Okay?

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 2 It's not your job.

Speaker 2 You are doing an incredible job planning for your future. And your parents have made grown-up choices.

Speaker 2 Like whatever job your dad is working at is a choice he's chosen to work and that's his trade that's what he does

Speaker 2 and your mom made a choice we want to stay at home that was a collective values-based decision that they made and then there was a math problem they ran into and like adults all over the country brave adults are saying okay this is what we wanted this isn't going to be this isn't the way this is going to work out for a while so we're going to have to alter our plan and do something else and so i'm actually proud of your parents for doing that It's awesome.

Speaker 2 It's just going to look different. Okay.

Speaker 2 The greatest thing you can do for your parents is you take care of your business in the classroom. You take care of your business as a teammate around that house, right?

Speaker 2 Make sure you take care of your responsibilities with excellence, which I know you do. And be sober-minded.
Be intentional about planning for the future.

Speaker 2 What college is going to look like, what it's going to cost, where you're going to go, what are you going to study, all of those things.

Speaker 2 That's the way you support your parents, not by taking your part-time job money and trying to keep the lights on. Now, there may come a moment when they ask you for that.

Speaker 2 It doesn't sound like that's what's happening. It sounds like your mom sat you down like a good mom.
She actually sounds incredible.

Speaker 2 Sat you down and said, hey, we've had some hard realities that we're dealing with, and so I'm going to have to go to work, and so home's going to look a little different for a season.

Speaker 2 Is that what happened?

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 I applaud her. Because a lot of parents would try to hide that.
They'd be ashamed of that. They'd be scared of that.
And your mom did the right thing. She sat down and told you a hard truth.

Speaker 2 And that also means that she trusts you.

Speaker 2 Does that make sense? That she thinks you're wise enough to hear that, that scary, that scary stuff, okay?

Speaker 2 But keep that in your mind and in your heart. It's not your job.
Okay?

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Do you believe me?

Speaker 19 Yes.

Speaker 2 No, you don't, but it's okay.

Speaker 2 It's okay if you don't.

Speaker 1 So there are some tactical things you can do, Alexis. One is, you know, you're 15, you're starting to enter that age where you can go get some part-time jobs.

Speaker 1 And one thing you can do is instead of going, hey, mom and dad, I want the new iPhone. It's $1,200,

Speaker 1 you can go work for that and save for that, and you cover your own expenses of things that are kind of the luxuries in your life.

Speaker 1 You don't have to go pay the water bill, but you can cover, you know, going out to the movies with your friends. It sounds like you already do that.

Speaker 16 Yeah.

Speaker 16 Oh, yeah.

Speaker 2 Awesome. Yeah, I just, I wasn't sure if that was okay for me to continue to have like

Speaker 1 a lot of things. Yes, flexing that muscle at 50.
I wish John and I were that smart at 15. Yes.
Goodness gracious.

Speaker 2 I know what day it was when I was 15. And yes, you you, listen, we often think that pain is some zero or that grief is some zero.
And what that means is that George loses his job and I get a flat tire

Speaker 2 and I am upset. I'm whining about my flat tire.
And George goes, oh, yeah, you think that's bad. I lost my, listen, grief and sadness aren't some zero.

Speaker 2 You can go have joy while your parents are making life adjustments at their home because one doesn't, you not, you just sitting at home and not having fun and not hanging out with your friends and spending your spending money by going to the movies, you doing that doesn't help the

Speaker 2 bills get paid. You see what I'm saying?

Speaker 2 It's just you joining into their misery into something that you didn't cause. It's not your job.
Okay?

Speaker 32 Yeah.

Speaker 2 And so, yeah, go have fun with your friends. I love what George says.

Speaker 2 If you know, hey, now's not the time to go ask for the iPhone whatever, 13 or 17 or whatever number they're up to now. That's cool.
That's fine.

Speaker 2 But do go have joy in your life, okay?

Speaker 1 And I'm going to do one better for you, Alexis. I'm going to gift you Financial Peace University.

Speaker 1 And one thing you can do is you're casually hanging out in the living room watching Financial Peace University, and you go, hey, mom, dad, if you want to join me, like, I'm learning so much in this.

Speaker 1 If you guys want to join me, I think it'd be really cool for us to go through it together. And not as from a place of shame of like, hey, mom, anyway, you're just telling me you guys are broke.

Speaker 1 This might be good for you.

Speaker 2 I called the a couple of idiots on the radio. I got you solved.

Speaker 1 Telling the person who wiped your butt, you know, seven years ago this. So just go watch it yourself.
And I think you modeling that might inspire them, motivate them, give them some hope.

Speaker 1 And when the time comes, you're going to get older and they're going to be asking you for advice. That's right.
And so it's a great place to be. So hang on the line.
Jenna's going to pick up.

Speaker 1 We're going to gift you Financial Peace University for one year as well as every dollar premium. And you can get on a budget at 15 and they might see you doing that and go, what was that you did?

Speaker 1 That's pretty cool.

Speaker 2 Go ahead and send her Anthony O'Neill's debt-free degree to, Jenna.

Speaker 2 And she can start reading on now things and caboodle college is going to look like in the future. All right, let's go to Vanessa in Charleston.
Hey, Vanessa, what's going on?

Speaker 28 Can you hear me?

Speaker 2 Yes, ma'am. What's up?

Speaker 9 Okay. I'm so grateful to talk to you.
Thank you. I'm struggling with some issues.

Speaker 2 All right. Bring it on.
We are, too.

Speaker 5 Okay, there's so many details.

Speaker 34 I'm going to try to keep it nice and tidy.

Speaker 21 Okay.

Speaker 34 I'm 51 years old. I've dated a man for about 10 years.
We've lived together.

Speaker 34 I'm wanting to end the relationship.

Speaker 34 Kind of my issue is

Speaker 34 when we met, I sold the house that I'd raised my kids in.

Speaker 34 And I had went through Dave Ramsey, and I had cleared all my debts. So when we met, I was debt-free, and I had a little bit of money in the bank.

Speaker 34 About four years ago, we bought a house close to my daughter, and

Speaker 16 It was real small, and then another house came up around the corner, and it was in foreclosure.

Speaker 34 I got a decent deal on it, so I bought it.

Speaker 34 I own another house not 20 minutes away, and

Speaker 34 part of my issues are, number one, I'm wanting to end the relationship with my boyfriend.

Speaker 34 My other issue is I'm having some domestic issues with my daughter, if you will.

Speaker 16 And I think maybe some space, some time, some part, you know, some

Speaker 19 space between us would be good.

Speaker 17 So I have a total of four houses.

Speaker 2 What's your mortgage total on those four houses?

Speaker 16 I'm broke.

Speaker 34 When I leave the relationship, I'll have nothing other than these houses and my income.

Speaker 1 Is his name on the deeds?

Speaker 34 No, not on these.

Speaker 1 So your name only is on all these deeds?

Speaker 19 That's right.

Speaker 2 Okay. So can you sell all four houses?

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 1 I think it's time to start fresh.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 34 So my issue with it is, well, I mean, you know, my daughter's having some issues.

Speaker 35 You know,

Speaker 2 is having four is having being broke and having all of your money tied up in these four houses going to help your daughter?

Speaker 2 No. No.

Speaker 34 No, I guess what I'm struggling with it is, Ramines, two of the houses are rented out. Do I sell the rentals and try to save the house that I'm in, which is not necessarily desirable to me.

Speaker 34 It's the nicest of the houses, but it's

Speaker 34 nice to me because I'm close to my grandkids, but my daughter and I are having some issues,

Speaker 34 trying to decide whether or not to put space between us or what, you know what I mean?

Speaker 2 Or do I

Speaker 2 for the renters?

Speaker 19 When do I

Speaker 12 the first of the year for both

Speaker 28 of them?

Speaker 1 Then we say we're not renewing the lease. I'm selling the properties.

Speaker 2 Here's what I want you to do. Start thinking of it this way.
You're trying to look at this as a math problem, as a mothering problem, as a mental health issue problem, as a relationship problem.

Speaker 2 Whenever my life gets this chaotic, I'm going to clean up my environment and take as many variables off the table as possible.

Speaker 2 And right now you are leveraged to the gills in four houses that you can't afford, and it doesn't sound like you even want them.

Speaker 2 And if I'm you, again, I would talk to an attorney before you start dividing all this up because he may be claims to this and that. I'm going to take the variables that I can control off the table.

Speaker 2 I can't control the relationship mess. I can't control my daughter's situation.
We're going to have to work through that.

Speaker 2 I can control how chaotic my life is trying to run four households at the same time. I'm gonna sell the houses and clear that debt.
George, what do you think? Agreed. Awesome.
All right.

Speaker 2 Hey, that's the first hour of the Ramsey Show in the books. Thank you for listening.
We'll be right back.

Speaker 1 Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, it's the Ramsey Show, where we help people build wealth, do work that they love, and create amazing relationships.

Speaker 1 I'm Ramsey Personality George Camill, joined by my good friend and one of America's favorite Johns, Dr. John Deloney.
And we are here for you, America, taking your calls at 888-825-5225.

Speaker 1 Maybe you need some advice, some motivation.

Speaker 1 Maybe you need to take that next step with that broken relationship, the toxic boss, the debt that's been hanging over your head for far too long, and you're just ready to make some changes and live a better, more peaceful life.

Speaker 1 That's what we're all about on this show. Mary is going to kick us off in Cleveland, Ohio.
Mary, welcome to the show.

Speaker 33 Hi, how are you doing today?

Speaker 2 Doing well. How are you?

Speaker 13 I'm going to be honest, I'm a little nervous and anxious right now.

Speaker 1 We got you, Mary. It's just us here.
Just us girls.

Speaker 2 Let's talk.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 2 What's going on?

Speaker 21 So I'm calling in because my husband is a gambling addict and has been since January of this year when it became legal in Ohio.

Speaker 14 It has caused the heaviest toll on our marriage, on our relationship, our family.

Speaker 21 And I'm at the point where I have tried many routes with this, trying to be very gracious on how I go about it, trying to be respectful as a wife, trying to support his mistakes, but trying to get him the help he needs.

Speaker 10 And nothing is working.

Speaker 13 And at this point, he is very adamant about continuing to do it.

Speaker 6 And I'm at the point where I feel that I need to, you know, take my daughter and take a step away, not divorce, but maybe take some separation until he figures it out.

Speaker 13 But I honestly don't want to have to do that, but I don't know what else to do right now.

Speaker 2 What makes you think that, or what's happening that you feel like I need to get me and my daughter out of this to be safe?

Speaker 2 Well, um, I think you're right. I think you're right, by the way, but I want you to just articulate what something else is going on.
Like,

Speaker 2 what's happening in your home?

Speaker 6 It's just an extremely tense environment.

Speaker 13 We argue all the time,

Speaker 21 which, you know, we, we, but.

Speaker 2 Are you arguing because he's losing thousands and thousands of dollars or arguing because he's just glued to his phone all the time and he's angry because he wins and loses?

Speaker 2 Or, as most, as is most of the time,

Speaker 2 the gambling behavior and the addictive actions that are keep like this compulsion

Speaker 2 is indicative of a much bigger issue in your marriage. Y'all don't talk to each other.
You don't listen to each other. There's no intimacy.
It's just become a mess.

Speaker 2 And gambling is the way he's choosing to handle that

Speaker 2 global dysfunction inside your home.

Speaker 19 Correct.

Speaker 2 Okay. All of it?

Speaker 35 Yes.

Speaker 19 And I mean, the line is the biggest thing as well.

Speaker 2 So anytime somebody has a boundary inside of a marriage that they're thinking about laying down, right? Like,

Speaker 2 this is my final straw. This is my line that I won't cross anymore.
I always want to encourage them to have an or what statement because the person they laid the boundary down

Speaker 2 is going to want to know.

Speaker 20 Can you give an example?

Speaker 2 Yes. So you need to have an or what statement.

Speaker 2 You sit down with your husband and say, if we don't go to marriage counseling by the end of this weekend, or if we don't have a date on the calendar by the end of this weekend, and it's next week,

Speaker 2 and if you don't go,

Speaker 2 Here's the or what. Me and our daughter are moving out.

Speaker 2 Okay. Period.
You just have to be prepared for the or what because the or what comes with a lot of complexity.

Speaker 2 And I know it sounds super cool to be like, you like you're going to, you can Google this and on these stupid websites, they're going to tell you like, just leave him. You don't deserve.

Speaker 2 That sounds all well and good. But there is a significant financial complexity to this, right?

Speaker 13 Yeah, and I mean, I really don't want it to have to come together.

Speaker 2 Of course you have to still love him and we're a family together. Of course you do.

Speaker 2 I want you to keep this front and center as you move forward. You are simply doing what you have to do to keep your family safe and responding to somebody that's thrown a grenade inside your home.

Speaker 2 Yeah. You're not the one doing this.
And he will paint you as the villain here.

Speaker 11 He has.

Speaker 2 That's right. Because he gets to do it whatever he wants to do, whenever he wants to do it, with quote-unquote y'all's money.
And he can, you're just whining and nagging and complaining and on and on.

Speaker 2 online gambling online sports gambling is destroying individuals and homes across this country period and dude i always watch the fights i love watching the games i love having some fun with my friends so it's not that i'm like this fuddy daddy that sits in my house and and plays bingo all the time i love i love the whole environment and yet this is destroying people

Speaker 2 yeah and you've told him that and he has told you i don't really care what you have to say. I'm going to keep doing whatever I want to do.

Speaker 19 Yeah.

Speaker 35 And I mean,

Speaker 6 it's been the past few months.

Speaker 13 I guess to give just some quick context,

Speaker 33 so pretty much in a lump sum, he has spent between $30,000 to $40,000.

Speaker 2 Has he lost it?

Speaker 6 Oh, yeah, like he's lost all of it.

Speaker 10 We don't, there's no, I mean, he's, you know, won a couple thousand here or a hundred here, things like that.

Speaker 10 But

Speaker 27 he's all together since the beginning of this year.

Speaker 16 It's been around $40,000.

Speaker 2 And can we be honest? This is what you know about. I promise there's more.
This is all I know about.

Speaker 2 Let me ask you a very tactical question. If you move out, do you have a job? Do you have money?

Speaker 13 Yes, I have a job, but we,

Speaker 6 so he's in nursing school.

Speaker 2 Hold on, hold on. Hold on.
He is making choices. You're keeping yourself safe.

Speaker 2 If he's he's in nursing school, then he gets to take care of his, pay for nursing school. He gets to make all those choices on his own.

Speaker 2 You need to have your four walls covered for you and your baby if you choose to. Do you have your own bank account?

Speaker 12 Yes, I actually did.

Speaker 13 Probably about two months ago at this point.

Speaker 12 That was one of the steps I took was separating our finances.

Speaker 2 We never recommend that except in this moment.

Speaker 2 Does your check direct deposit into that account?

Speaker 21 It's still in our joint.

Speaker 21 And I will just say so pretty much because we don't have any like we don't have any financial security right now so with my job and his job we get paid each week so i get paid and then he gets paid the following and so on so forth so with our money that we have right now i want to take the money from like my check and put it into ours but then all the bills come out from our joint because we haven't switched any of those yet so all of like pretty much each paycheck that we get each week is going towards bills going towards groceries and gas and then there's nothing left over I want you to get with a friend and I want you to map this out.

Speaker 2 Okay. Okay.

Speaker 2 And you're going to have to move your direct deposit to your new account.

Speaker 2 And you would know as well as I do, he's going to hit the roof, isn't he?

Speaker 21 Yeah, he here he did when I, I mean, everything I do,

Speaker 2 he does. That's right.
Are you safe?

Speaker 19 Yes.

Speaker 2 Okay. He's not going to hit you or hurt you?

Speaker 2 No. Okay.
So we are getting with a friend and we're going to map this out.

Speaker 2 What's an apartment going to cost? What are the light and water bill going to cost?

Speaker 2 And we're going to get all this mapped out and lined out.

Speaker 2 We're going to make sure that our check can cover that and you might need to get some new hours and all that kind of stuff, child care, all those things.

Speaker 2 And then

Speaker 2 we're going to sit down and be very articulate and clear about my or what statement. This changes

Speaker 2 or here's what I'm going to do. You can't control anything he does.
You can only control what you do. I hate that during this situation.
Stay on the line.

Speaker 2 We're going to hook you up with every dollar so you can begin to control control what you can control if and when you have to step away. We'll be right back.

Speaker 1 This is the Ramsey Show. I'm George Campbell joined by Dr.
John Deloney this hour. The number to call to ask your question is 888-825-5225.

Speaker 1 Jane joins us up next in Lawton, Oklahoma. Jane, welcome to the show.

Speaker 21 Hi, how are you?

Speaker 2 We're doing great.

Speaker 1 How can we help you today?

Speaker 19 Oh, okay. So this is tough.

Speaker 27 So I've been married about two years, and before we got married, I agreed to not sharing the bank account.

Speaker 35 I understood his reservations.

Speaker 5 I do have a full-time job.

Speaker 27 All right.

Speaker 20 And a couple of months ago, I thought, well, maybe I really do need to learn to manage my finances better because according to him, like, I haven't proven that I know how to manage money.

Speaker 20 And I started listening to the Dave Ramsey show because I thought that, you know, I do love the Ramsey network.

Speaker 29 And I have realized that my problems are a lot more intense

Speaker 20 than just a financial disagreement or a communication issue.

Speaker 20 You know, he's gone half of the time with his job, and he doesn't leave. He will not give me money for groceries, any necessities.

Speaker 20 Anytime I bring that up, he tells me I need to manage my money better.

Speaker 1 Do you have a debit card?

Speaker 5 Do I have a debit card?

Speaker 1 How much money

Speaker 1 control and access does he give you to money?

Speaker 13 Oh, zero.

Speaker 1 So you can't spend a dime if you even wanted to.

Speaker 33 No, I mean, I have

Speaker 12 my paycheck, but that's it.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 1 And you're working full-time?

Speaker 14 Yes.

Speaker 1 Do you have any kids?

Speaker 29 I mean, I have one daughter.

Speaker 1 How old is she?

Speaker 20 Uh, ten.

Speaker 1 Okay. Is he the dad?

Speaker 11 No. Okay.

Speaker 2 Um

Speaker 2 are you safe?

Speaker 29 Yeah.

Speaker 20 I mean, physically, yes.

Speaker 2 All right, I'm going to trust you.

Speaker 2 The data suggests that guys who act like this are

Speaker 2 physically abusive as well.

Speaker 2 And I would even go as far to say maybe hasn't thrown a punch, but has created a world that is so unsafe for your body that it shuts itself down and tries to get small because there's a bear living in that house.

Speaker 15 Yeah, I mean, I've been through some pretty traumatic things in my life,

Speaker 20 but like on paper that would be way worse than this. I've never had a panic attack until recently.
So I know like full-on like panic attack okay

Speaker 20 and I know like I'm educated enough to know that like your body starts to do things when it's trying to get your attention yeah right so what's keeping you there

Speaker 20 well I mean I do

Speaker 20 I mean I did make a vow to him

Speaker 20 and I take that seriously but I mean I have a couple of thousand dollars in debt now that I didn't have before because I have to put gas and groceries on credit cards sometimes.

Speaker 2 Do you know?

Speaker 12 And he makes about four times what I do.

Speaker 20 Sure.

Speaker 2 I don't want to weave this back and forth into a finance situation than out of a finance situation. You're in an extremely toxic environment.
You're in an unsafe environment.

Speaker 2 And if we haven't crossed lines yet, we will at some point.

Speaker 2 And even when the way you started the call, he told me I haven't proven my, like just those words alone let me know this is very much a father-daughter relationship far far more than it's a husband and wife creating a future together

Speaker 35 right i mean

Speaker 20 he i mean if he he does control everything i mean not just money and if something's not up to done the way he wants it done i mean he will threaten to put me out

Speaker 2 gosh Why are you I mean trivial stuff like that's not besides the vow, which I mean this doesn't sound like a marriage.

Speaker 1 If you just talk hearing you say this out loud just sounds like a toxic roommate situation,

Speaker 1 what is he actually signing up for when he signed up for this marriage?

Speaker 20 I recently asked him that, and I mean, he was like, well, I married you because I love you.

Speaker 2 But is this love?

Speaker 20 I don't think love should feel like this.

Speaker 2 It does not. This is control.
This is power.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 I'm speaking on behalf of John Deloney, not on behalf of the Ramsey Network here. And so

Speaker 2 I take a much broader view of the word fidelity.

Speaker 2 I think you can cheat on somebody and never sleep with another person. But if you steal from somebody their dignity and their autonomy and their ability to have feelings and thoughts and

Speaker 2 a

Speaker 2 partnership in a relationship, that's not fidelity, right? You are cheating that person out of their life.

Speaker 2 You're cheating that person out of connection, okay?

Speaker 2 And so I take a much broader view. I think, and some people have very narrow, like you got to have sex with somebody else.
Otherwise, it's not cheating.

Speaker 2 I have a much broader view than that. But I'm listening to my sister Jane here,

Speaker 2 and

Speaker 2 you're slowly drowning, and you know it, and your body's trying to get your attention. And so, I guess what George and I are asking you,

Speaker 2 two guys who love our wives, and we're not perfect, man, but

Speaker 2 I'm trying to sit across the table from you and say, what are you doing why are you here why are you staying what's the hook

Speaker 2 you got a couple thousand dollars who cares

Speaker 2 you're too tough and resilient and brave you'll have that paid off in no time like something else is here like what's the hook why are we staying

Speaker 20 I mean I don't know that I could

Speaker 20 well I mean some of it's like I want to say that like I gave my all you and

Speaker 2 I don't think you're being allowed to give your all because the person you're connected to is saying, you can take your all and flush it down the toilet. Go make the bed the right way.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Are you scared to leave? What would be the repercussions if you said, hey, I'm out?

Speaker 15 I mean,

Speaker 20 I mean, I just want a stable life for my child.

Speaker 2 This is not it.

Speaker 2 Your child is absorbing, top to bottom what love looks like what marriage looks like

Speaker 2 what equality looks like

Speaker 2 absorbing it and into their DNA

Speaker 2 now I will never unless somebody is being physically like assaulted I'm not going to tell somebody they have they need to leave their marriage I've often told people you need to get to where you are safe and we may need to take a structured 30-day break.

Speaker 2 I'm going to go move in with a friend for 30 days. We're going to be very clear on when I come, when I come back, what the conditions of coming back are going to be.
But,

Speaker 2 and again,

Speaker 2 you and I, you got to make this choice. You're an adult.

Speaker 21 I don't see that going over well.

Speaker 2 Do you see your current situation going over well?

Speaker 12 Well, I mean, I probably wouldn't have reached out to you guys.

Speaker 2 I know, I know, I know.

Speaker 2 And I hope you hear that we love you.

Speaker 1 I'm worried about you. Neither options are easy.
Let's just make that very clear. Staying is really hard and leaving is going to be hard.
But one leads you to where you're free

Speaker 1 and that your daughter's safe and you're safe and you can get to a better place financially instead of living in this prison.

Speaker 1 And we just want what's best for Jane.

Speaker 20 Yeah.

Speaker 20 I mean, I'm scared to make a decision.

Speaker 35 Yeah.

Speaker 15 And

Speaker 2 do you have people that you know and trust that can sit with you and hear the entirety of the story?

Speaker 16 Yeah, a little bit.

Speaker 2 Have you opened up? Do they know?

Speaker 15 Yeah.

Speaker 2 What do they tell you?

Speaker 20 To leave. Okay.

Speaker 1 If your friend was in the situation, what would you tell her?

Speaker 20 I mean, I never imagined myself in this situation.

Speaker 2 No, that's what makes these abusive situations so surreal. Because it's like, there's no way that's happening.
I've heard that over and over. There's no way this is happening to me.

Speaker 2 And it may even be, in your case, happening again, right?

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 20 I've never experienced anything quite like this.

Speaker 18 But I'm just scared of,

Speaker 20 I'm, I'm really just, I don't know what, I mean, I know what I need to do.

Speaker 2 But

Speaker 2 here's what I want you to do.

Speaker 2 I want you to reach out to a couple of friends, to reach out to a local counselor in your community, not to go, quote unquote, get well right now, but you need someone that's going to walk alongside you as you have a very challenging road ahead of you.

Speaker 2 whether you stay and try to figure out how to make this thing work or you decide to create an alternative life outside of this relationship but listen you're worth being well

Speaker 1 welcome back to the ramsey show i'm george campbell host of the entree leadership podcast a fine friend and co-host of smart money happy hour joined this hour by the host of the dr john deloney show you guested america it's dr john deloney himself

Speaker 1 How funny would it be if it was a different host?

Speaker 2 If it was Dan. Hey, my name is Dan.
I'm hosting the Dr. John Deloney Show.
It's kind of like us, me and you, hosting the Ramsey show.

Speaker 1 That's true. At least Dave took his first name off of it to make it less awkward for all of us.
It's great.

Speaker 1 Well, we are here for you, America, taking your calls about life, money, mental health, relationships, career. It all kind of blends into one blurry thing we call life.

Speaker 1 And we're here to help you take the next step and help you make a breakthrough in that. So 888-825-5225 is the number to call.
Renee joins us up next in Orlando, Florida. Renee, welcome to the show.

Speaker 28 Hi, thank you.

Speaker 28 So just a little bit of backstory. My husband and I were in our mid-30s and we both work

Speaker 28 in frontline positions at one of the major theme parks in the area. And we also have a six-year-old son.

Speaker 28 And for the last three months, we've been living in a hotel because we could no longer afford our rent in our apartment. And financially, we are just not in a place to buy a house.

Speaker 28 We've been able to secure an apartment but the real issue is

Speaker 28 we ended up falling for

Speaker 12 as you would say George the stupid tax of

Speaker 28 getting into payday loans and installment loans and now we're like

Speaker 28 $25,000 in debt and we make like $75,000 a year but between the weekly payments on those loans and our regular bills we're suffocating under

Speaker 28 under our debt and we don't know how to get out of it we were just turned on to your show the Ramsey Solutions maybe like a couple days ago from a co-worker of mine and we've found hope in it so far but we've been hearing stuff on the show like baby steps and emergency funding.

Speaker 28 We don't know what any of that stuff is. And we just, we don't know how to start.
We don't know where to go from here. We don't have anything in savings.
We don't have anything for retirement.

Speaker 28 We don't have anything for our kids.

Speaker 28 And we would like to have more children someday and set up a stable future and a stable home life for them eventually.

Speaker 2 I'm so sorry to hear all about this for now.

Speaker 2 Gosh. Are you ready?

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 2 Like when George starts talking here,

Speaker 2 you have to say you're ready. And what that means is you're ready to quit your jobs if you have to.
You're ready to move out of the area if you have to. You're ready to change everything.
Are you in?

Speaker 28 Yes, we're ready. Steve, my husband and I, we've already started looking into

Speaker 28 schooling to get different jobs.

Speaker 28 You know, stay in the jobs that we have right now so that we can fund the schooling that we're going to because the company we're at, they will fund higher education for free.

Speaker 28 And my husband, he currently has a bachelor's in psychology and wants to go to school for a master's of social work to be a guidance counselor. And I'm looking into real estate school because I

Speaker 28 don't have any desire to go to college per se and throw money into a system where there's no guarantee of me getting a job in that field.

Speaker 2 Okay, so you're ready. So George is going to walk you through it.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 So I love that you guys want to further your education and get out of this hole, but right now we're in survival mode. And so I'm not thinking about school.

Speaker 1 I'm thinking about how are we going to put food on the table and stop living in hotels and make sure a six-year-old is taken care of. And so A1 is to stop going into debt.
Are you guys done there?

Speaker 1 Are you still having to take out these payday loans to get by?

Speaker 28 No, we're done.

Speaker 28 We did take out some credit cards a couple months ago, but we have since stopped using them.

Speaker 2 Cut them up. Cut them up.

Speaker 1 Can you physically cut them up?

Speaker 22 Yes.

Speaker 1 Cut them up. And throw them away so you don't know the numbers anymore.
Okay. And then we're going to pay those off completely, and we're going to close all of those accounts.

Speaker 1 And we're not going to look at credit card companies and payday loans as a blessing to get us through next week.

Speaker 2 They are snakes.

Speaker 19 Okay.

Speaker 2 They prey on people in your situation. Okay, who are working their butts off to try to make it work and who want the best for their little kid and just can't make the ends meet.
They prey on you.

Speaker 2 They give me and George, they give us free flights, and you pay for them

Speaker 2 okay

Speaker 2 they are not your friend

Speaker 1 so once we're saying no to debt let me ask the interest rate on these payday loans because I think it's gonna make us all throw up

Speaker 28 too much to

Speaker 2 is it in the hundreds

Speaker 31 probably

Speaker 28 I mean we're we're we're spending twelve hundred dollars a month on these payday loans on

Speaker 2 What other debt do you have?

Speaker 28 We both have car payments,

Speaker 28 and I've looked into selling them off, and we are basically upside down on both of our cars. Because, again, it was a buy-here, pay-here kind of place, so astronomical interest rates.

Speaker 2 Okay, what other?

Speaker 1 You have two car loans, you get the payday loans, you have the credit cards, what else?

Speaker 28 The credit cards we're actually not in debt on.

Speaker 2 We make those payments zero balance.

Speaker 12 Okay. We just stop using them.

Speaker 28 But But we also have like medical bills and collections. I have maybe $1,200 in medical bills and collections, and my husband has $1,400 in collections.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 1 So what we're going to do is, A1, is we're not going into more debt. That's baby step zero.
We're going to stop the bleeding. Your next step is to scrape together $1,000 as quickly as possible.

Speaker 1 That's going to go into a savings account. I know that sounds like, how are we going to do that? We have no margin.
And this is where we go, Obviously, you guys aren't living lavishly.

Speaker 1 All of your money is going to debt.

Speaker 28 We haven't lived lavishly in a long time.

Speaker 2 So right now, your expenses aren't getting a haircut in a year.

Speaker 1 Your expenses are your four walls, is what I'm guessing. Food, utilities, housing, transportation.

Speaker 28 Yeah, basically.

Speaker 12 And then anything my kid needs.

Speaker 2 Okay. Our kid needs.

Speaker 1 This might mean that we are working 60, 70 hour weeks and we're trading spots to take care of the six-year-old for a few weeks just so we can get out from being underwater.

Speaker 2 Let's tell her what that, like, that means he your husband gets off of work and he doesn't come home.

Speaker 28 Yep, that's what we've been doing. My husband's been doing double shifts

Speaker 28 six or seven days a week because he can.

Speaker 28 My role at this theme park, they don't allow overtime.

Speaker 1 Have you talked to your employer, your leaders there, and explained what's going on?

Speaker 9 Yeah.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 28 there's.

Speaker 1 Could they put you up in some of their housing on the property temporarily?

Speaker 28 They don't have it. I mean, they have it for the college kids, but

Speaker 2 do you have somebody who could

Speaker 2 watch your kid for you?

Speaker 28 We will now

Speaker 7 because our closest family is three hours away,

Speaker 7 but we recently acquired an apartment, thank God,

Speaker 28 in a complex that's an hour away from work, but we actually have friends that live in the complex that would be willing to.

Speaker 2 So it

Speaker 2 run from time to time. Well, it might be for 30 days.
You ask them, tell them, hey, we're in a mess.

Speaker 2 And the moment you get off, you're going straight to drive Uber or deliver Uber Eats or deliver Instacart.

Speaker 2 And all we're trying to do is get $1,000, get $1,000. You are going to get $1,000 in your account, and you're going to take a deep breath for the first time in a long time.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 1 And you're going to do whatever it takes, even if it's I'm staying with friends, I'm going to get plugged into a local church, and do whatever you can to get there.

Speaker 1 Baby step two is listing all the debts, smallest to largest, regardless of the interest rate, and attacking it with a vengeance, with all the margin you can muster up, with all the income you can create, with all the expenses you can shave down.

Speaker 1 And it might be hard at first, but when you knock out that first debt, you are going to be on cloud nine. And you're going to feel like, oh my gosh, we can do this thing.

Speaker 1 And you're going to knock out the next debt and the next debt. And what does that do? It frees up the payments on those, now giving you a bigger snowball to keep rolling.

Speaker 1 And that's called the debt snowball method.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 1 And once you do that, over the next, you know, it may, what's the total amount of debt you guys have?

Speaker 28 I would say between $25,000 and $30,000.

Speaker 2 You guys can do this.

Speaker 1 Easy. You make $75K, you got $25,000 to pay off.
We've heard much smaller incomes with much bigger numbers, and they were able to do it.

Speaker 1 So I want you, the key to all of this is just believing that you can do it. And we're going to help you and walk with you by giving you one year of Financial Peace University.

Speaker 1 Watch all nine lessons with your husband to get fired up, to give you knowledge, to give you motivation.

Speaker 1 We're going to give you one year of every dollar premium to get on a written plan, a budget every single week. You're tracking every expense, making every dollar stretch as far as it can go.

Speaker 1 And I want you to call us back when you're debt-free and share your story because it's going to give so many other people out there hope who didn't think it was possible for them.

Speaker 1 Hang on the line, Jen is going to pick up. We are rooting for you.
We are in your corner. Please call us back if we can help in any other way.
This is the Ramsey Show.

Speaker 1 This is the Ramsey Show. I'm George Campbell, joined by Dr.
John Deloney. If you're a fan of this show, be sure to check out my friend Dr.
John Deloney's show.

Speaker 1 It's on YouTube and podcasts, and he does it right next door to the studio, and it's a real good one.

Speaker 1 And if you want more from me, which is a rare small group of people, you can check out Smart Money Happy Hour, a podcast I have with Rachel Cruz. That's real fun.

Speaker 1 And then a brand new YouTube channel where I'm making hopefully fun, entertaining personal finance videos, breaking down all the traps and trends to help you guys.

Speaker 2 So you're blown by me, numbers-wise. Well, doing it, man.

Speaker 1 I think it's because I went all in. I'm a YouTuber, like a true YouTuber.

Speaker 2 Yeah, you're like a YouTube creative.

Speaker 1 And it's highly produced. A lot of pop culture and memes, you know, less sad calls that are people in really tough situations.
So I have that going for me. And they're short.

Speaker 2 Well, that's crushing, dude.

Speaker 1 You're long-winded. I'm short-winded.

Speaker 2 You told me not to talk about your height on the air anymore, so I won't.

Speaker 1 Leave it alone, John.

Speaker 2 All right.

Speaker 1 Let's go to the phones. Caleb is up next in Chattanooga, Tennessee.
Caleb, welcome to the show.

Speaker 14 Hey, guys. Thanks for taking my call.

Speaker 1 What's going on?

Speaker 14 Well, I'm having some

Speaker 14 financial struggles with my girlfriend.

Speaker 14 Really, like, I'm doing all right myself. We have separate bank accounts.

Speaker 14 You know, I've never really thought of combining them or anything, but she just hasn't been handling her finances very well.

Speaker 14 And it's kind of putting like a real strain on our relationship.

Speaker 2 In what way?

Speaker 1 What's your involvement with her her money?

Speaker 14 She hasn't been able to help out with any of like the bills. We live together.

Speaker 2 Ah, there it is. Okay.
So a lot of combined bills.

Speaker 1 She can't pay the bills?

Speaker 14 No, like she she can hardly even pay her own bills.

Speaker 2 Why? And

Speaker 2 is she working full-time? Yep.

Speaker 14 Yes and no.

Speaker 2 She just just recently relocated. Okay.
And

Speaker 14 that was the issue. Like she took a job that didn't really pan out.
And so for about a month or two there, she really didn't have the income coming in.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 14 And,

Speaker 14 you know, on top of that, she didn't really have any money saved up to fall back on. So she was putting stuff on credit cards.

Speaker 1 So are you covering all the bills right now?

Speaker 14 Yeah.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 14 the household bill.

Speaker 2 Caleb, is the problem financial or is the problem you're growing increasingly

Speaker 2 disgusted is probably a strong word, but you're growing increasingly frustrated by the character of the person you're trying to play house with?

Speaker 14 Yeah.

Speaker 2 I don't want to like, are you starting to believe like, I don't know if I want to be married to someone who rolls like this?

Speaker 2 Yeah, I mean, that's definitely i think you kind of hit the nail on the head right there okay because here's the deal one george and i are both going to tell you if if you're not married and we can say there's a moral issue fine but there's there's a legal issue if you're not married

Speaker 2 paying each other's bill playing house paying each other's bills it just makes for a mess dude if you own a house together the whole thing is just so complex And so we would tell you, man, if you're going to play house, get married, and

Speaker 2 because at least there is some legal protection as you separate things out, if things go sideways, if you're just dating, it just turns into World War III and four and five.

Speaker 2 But beyond that, man, both George and I are married. We both are all in on the woman that we are with.
And if there's a season where we got to do extra, that's what, I mean, there's no problem there.

Speaker 2 That doesn't seem to be your issue. That seems to be like you're just getting increasingly frustrated that this is who I'm dating? This is a

Speaker 2 like, come on. And she's just like, nah, you got it.

Speaker 2 Is that right?

Speaker 14 Yeah, I mean,

Speaker 14 that's definitely,

Speaker 14 you're going down the right, right hole there. I mean, what

Speaker 14 kind of frustrates me is I feel like a pressure. Like, she wants our relationship to move to like the next level.

Speaker 1 What is the next level?

Speaker 2 You guys are already living in the middle of the moment.

Speaker 14 That would be like marriage or kids.

Speaker 2 Ah.

Speaker 14 And I'm not comfortable doing that with her because of her finances.

Speaker 1 Have you told us?

Speaker 2 Hey, hold on. It's not because of her finances,

Speaker 2 it's because of her character. They are expressing themselves in her finances.

Speaker 2 Don't get those two screwed up because she's going to make you a bunch of promises and say, okay, well, I'll pay my credit card off and I'll go get another job.

Speaker 2 That's not going to cure the underlying, which is, eh, I'll do whatever I want. I don't have to participate in building, make creating a home together.
And also, in her defense,

Speaker 2 I

Speaker 2 y'all are kind of just making up the, I mean, you're you're just,

Speaker 2 it's very wishy-washy, and it's hard to, it's hard to anchor into wishy-washy, right?

Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah, I agree.

Speaker 1 Have you had a conversation with her yet about all this?

Speaker 14 Yeah, I, I have, and it just ends in like argument and yelling and stuff. I'm, I'm just kind of at my wit's end because

Speaker 14 as even as we speak, like she's getting like opening up new credit cards, account card accounts and stuff like

Speaker 2 Have you said to her

Speaker 2 being in debt scares me to death

Speaker 2 and when you borrow money, I can't breathe.

Speaker 2 And moving forward in my home, the home that I want to raise kids in and build a family with,

Speaker 2 we are going to be people who don't borrow money. And so if that's the way you want to get through your world, I love that you are opting out of relationship with me.

Speaker 2 Have you said that?

Speaker 14 No, I haven't.

Speaker 2 Have a backbone, man. You got to stand up and speak your virtues out into the world.

Speaker 2 Because you're going to wake up three years from now. You're going to have two kids.
You're going to be considering a wedding and you are not even going to know what date is.

Speaker 2 You're going to be so frustrated.

Speaker 2 Is that fair?

Speaker 2 Yeah. I would never, and listen to me.
Don't go tell her, Billy, hey, I called these guys on the radio. They told me to dump your butt.
That's not what we're saying at all.

Speaker 2 I'm telling you, the only thing in the world you can control is your thoughts and your actions. So you go be a person of character and say exactly what you need and what you feel.

Speaker 2 And then she gets to opt into that and y'all create a life together, or she gets to opt out of that and have a bunch of shiny plastic toys. That's it.

Speaker 2 I know I made that sound real simple. I know it's super way more complex than that.

Speaker 1 But Caleb, this is eating you alive, man. This is turning into resentment.
This is turning into you feeling like you're enabling her poor decisions.

Speaker 1 And if I'm in your shoes, I just go, this relationship isn't working. Our values are too dissimilar for this to work.
And I wish you the best. And you know what that means? Someone's got to move out.

Speaker 1 And it's going to get real awkward real quick.

Speaker 2 Because your first thought's going to be like, I've been paying the bills. And she's going to say bye, Felicia.
And then the whole thing starts over.

Speaker 2 Then George and I high five and we're like, told you so. But we won't do that.

Speaker 1 I know the next few steps are going to be real hard, but what's even harder is just sticking this out, hoping things change. And it just gets worse.
And then you've got a lot of resentment.

Speaker 1 And John Deloney, he quotes another super smart psychologist guy who said, choose guilt over resentment. Yeah, you're going to feel guilty.

Speaker 1 You're going to go, ah, she's already going through a tough time. I can't believe I could do this to her.
But man, it's going to be.

Speaker 2 Choose that over hating

Speaker 2 the woman that you love, right? Or hating your mother-in-law or hating your dad. Like, choose guilt.
Choose the boundaries, right?

Speaker 2 And it goes back to,

Speaker 2 I don't think a lot of talked about it yet, but I think I've talked about it a little bit.

Speaker 1 It's a secret.

Speaker 2 Well, it's just like, I got a new book coming out in the fall.

Speaker 2 But one of the discussions comes from the great Michael Easter, which like you got to, it's hard.

Speaker 2 Life is hard if you are overweight by 100 pounds. It's hard.

Speaker 2 And it's so hard to lose 100 pounds. So you're not toggling between, oh, one's real easy and one's real hard.

Speaker 2 My life is super simple if I'm 100 pounds overweight and my knees hurt and my back hurts and I'm exhausted. And

Speaker 2 that's not, you're not choosing between a real fun time and a hard time losing weight. They're both hard.

Speaker 2 Right now, what he's choosing is nobody taught that dude how to say his needs out loud and nobody taught him how to build a pit, sit down with somebody and build a picture of what marriage could look like for us and building a life and a home together.

Speaker 2 No one's done that. Doing that would be almost impossible.
And living with somebody that you don't share their values and they are just digging a hole that expect you to clean up, that's hard too.

Speaker 2 So, it's not an easy one's easy and one's hard. They're both hard.
You got to just choose your heart, right?

Speaker 1 One, one's going to lead to freedom. What's the path?

Speaker 2 That's right. That's a good word.
One path heads to freedom.

Speaker 1 Wishing you the best. Choose your heart, man.
That puts this hour of the Ramsey Show in the books. My thanks to all the folks in the booth keeping the show running.
My co-host, Dr.

Speaker 1 John Deloney, and you, America, will be back with you before you know it.

Speaker 2 What up, what up? It's Dr. John

Speaker 2 the latest episode of United States of Anxiety is available right now exclusively on the Ramsey Network app.

Speaker 2 This docu series follows real people from my show as they embark on a 90-day journey to transform their lives, and I personally walk alongside them every step of the way.

Speaker 2 Okay, now here's a sneak peek of what the new episode is all about. And don't forget to click the link in the show notes to download the app.

Speaker 2 What's up, Kelsey? Kelsey?

Speaker 18 So I've lived with crippling anxiety for as long as I can remember. How do I stop it from constantly coming up in different areas of my life?

Speaker 2 What does crippling anxiety mean? Paint me a picture of that.

Speaker 2 All right, so you ready to jump in?

Speaker 12 I'm ready to jump in.

Speaker 2 We're going to check in with Kelsey 30 days, 60 days, 90 days.

Speaker 37 I cannot even function because I'm just crying.

Speaker 37 My mom left us when I was four.

Speaker 18 I truly felt like for a while I had no family.

Speaker 2 She's experiencing things that really hurt a long time ago. Tell me about this boy.

Speaker 18 He triggers me a lot.

Speaker 37 Scared of losing Paul, scared of doing the wrong thing, scared of not being enough.

Speaker 2 It just feels like it would be exhausting to be Kelsey. It is.
Whenever somebody's playing whack-a-mole with their anxiety, when it just keeps moving, that tells me the underlying system's not okay.

Speaker 37 How do I get my inner child out of this relationship? Because I feel like she's running the show.

Speaker 2 One of two people that's supposed to never leave took off. I was this,

Speaker 2 I was this burden. Your burden, that's right.
To the one person

Speaker 2 who should carry it, all of it. Did you ever tell that little girl that it wasn't her fault?

Speaker 4 I don't know what to do.

Speaker 2 You either have to choose to let this guy love you, or you got to choose to let this guy go.