‘After Hours’ with Bill Simmons and Sean Fennessey

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That is right.

If you had been left out of New York Month, I think people would have felt like we were feuding.

Yeah, I got it.

I'm starting to feud with Kendrick Perkins, apparently.

So I don't know if I could have added you to the list.

I would be in great company if I could join Perk in the feud, but I'm very grateful to be invited here.

It did cross my mind when you, I'm usually like pretty chill about like Bill's going to do whatever he wants to do with the Rewatchables.

I love being on the show whenever, but when you announced New York Month.

But we announced it two films in.

It was like kind of belatedly became New York Month.

You know what it was?

It wasn't even,

am I going to be on an episode?

It was, is a New Yorker going to be on an episode?

I was like, it's John G.

Strange.

Do we not have a New Yorker?

Do you want to be here?

Do you not have a New Yorker or anything?

It's Van, CR.

I guess Kyle Brandt lives there.

Kyle Brandt lived there.

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The last episode of New York City Month.

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Big Apple Broadcasting.

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There you go.

We had to do this one.

Martin Scorsese, After Hours.

Right after this.

There's never been a comedy quite like After Hours, Rapes People magazine.

A racy, raucous ride through the night, found to leave audiences reeling with laughter.

Newsweek says what a pleasure it is to watch score Sazy cook.

He's masterful.

His images sparkle.

And the Village Voice calls it funny, original, and audacious.

After Hours.

I'm glad you came.

Rated R.

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All right.

After hours, cult classic.

When they talk about the cult classics in whatever the movies that get listed, and it could be 5, 10, 15, 20, this one will always get thrown into the paragraph.

It's usually pretty high on the list.

Yeah.

There's a variety of reasons for that.

Is it a New York movie or a Scorsese movie?

If you had to pick one, one,

I'll just spoil right now that this is in my top five favorite Scorsese movies of all time.

So for me, it's a Scorsese movie, but part of that is because the New York that's in this movie is not a New York I ever experienced.

I'm too young to have been in the Dirtbag Central that was Howard Street in 1985.

So I don't even, it doesn't even look as much.

It looks like a place that still looks that way, but it doesn't feel that way anymore.

So it's more of a time capsule.

And for me, it's Scorsese style all over the place.

It's so funny watching this

and just seeing all the seeds of Goodfellas and all these little edits and camera shots.

You're like, oh, he saved that for later for five years after.

So I am barely old enough to remember this version of New York City.

Okay.

Yeah.

Did you go to Manhattan when you were a kid?

Yeah.

So when I was in high school and then right after my buddy Jim Grady, his mom got a place in New York City.

And we started,

if she wasn't there, we started going, yeah, we're going to stay in your place.

And

you can imagine what ensued.

We would go out.

So it was like probably late 80s, early 90s.

Okay.

You're mixing it up at the Berlin Club?

What were you doing?

We were just kind of going out and trying to get into places with fake IDs.

But there was a couple nights that we had that the reason this movie is so great is everybody has these New York City nights.

But in that day, there was one night we ended up in the meat district.

And I honestly thought I was going to die.

It was like three in the morning.

We're at some party.

We got lost leaving.

We didn't know where we were going.

And we were, and it was exactly like the New York in this movie where it's just, it's empty.

It's scary.

You don't know how to get anywhere.

There's no cabs.

And you're just like,

it becomes escape from New York.

It's so funny, too, because me packing that area that you're talking about in particular is one of those parts of the city now that is defined by hamburgers costing $57 in restaurants and not by, am I about to be knifed?

Am I going to encounter an incredible

sculptress who will show me the ways of downtown New York?

Like the energies are just so changed.

It's The city is very corporate now.

It's very kind of polished and shiny.

I mean, think of Soho.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, that's where there's Soho in this movie versus the Soho now.

It's not, there's no relation.

It's like a corporate epicenter now.

And in this movie, it's just, it's a, it's a freewheeling thing.

And that's a great part of the idea of the movie, which is it's a movie about somebody from the square world that Soho now looks like, but is more uptown.

And what happens when an uptown square guy, yuppie guy, enters the world of the artist, the world of the drug user, the world of the rebel, the world of the untamed.

And what happens when he gets inside of that space and what does it do to him?

What does it make, how does it make him feel?

So, such a cool idea for a movie and a way to kind of platform this very particular time in the city's history.

There's only two cities in America that when you landed them and you're trying to navigate them, just seem completely overwhelming.

The other one is Los Angeles.

For the opposite reason, though.

Yeah.

We're like, you don't know in LA.

ends you can't walk anywhere yeah you know at least you get this grid like experience in new york where it's like all the streets are numbered yeah you're moving up and down or east to west and you you can always kind of feel like it's water both ways yes you know when you've hit the end of any side yeah it's a little different if you're in brooklyn or the bronx or queens it's way more confusing in la

I've got my sister in town and we're just driving around the city and it's like there's no way to make any logical sense of it experientially at least here and this is part of my picking nits too so i'll wait for that but new york is like very conquerable True.

You know, like once you, once you understand it, but there's so many different pockets.

True.

I didn't really fully understand that until the late 90s.

I just didn't, I didn't understand where anything was in relation to anything else.

Like people were like, oh, they, they, uh, they're from Brooklyn.

I'm like, I don't know where that is.

I don't know where that is compared to this.

And eventually in your head, the map kind of settles.

We also had no nav systems until the 2000s.

So the thing that I did for years when I lived in the city was anytime I'd be on the subway, I'd just look at the subway map and I would just study the subway map like it was a test and I would try to learn it as best I can.

And then something really interesting happened to me in 2004, which is that the city experienced an MTA strike.

So there were no subway trains running at all in New York City.

So everyone walked to work.

Wow.

So I walked down every day.

I want to say it was Third Avenue.

And I walked was this when you were working at Vivid Video?

It was pre-vivid.

Okay.

It was before I unsheathed the weapons.

No, it was, I think I was working at Complex Magazine and I walked, we lived on 96th and 3rd.

Yeah.

And I walked every day to 42nd and 6th for like whatever, however long that strike ended, like six weeks, maybe?

Like a 45-minute walk.

It was a long walk.

But when you're out walking and there's no other way to get around, then you're like, let's walk downtown and go to a restaurant.

Let's walk over the bridge and see what we can get, what trouble we can get into in Brooklyn.

And then that just becomes like a little bit more comfortable where you know on foot where you're headed at all times.

Whereas Paul Hacken in this movie, he doesn't even come downtown.

As soon as he he gets downtown, he's lost, which is an interesting thing about the city is like, if you're afraid of it,

it can eat you up.

And that's kind of what happened to him in the movie.

Yeah, I never got a handle on it.

I started going back a lot for ESPN in the 2000s.

And

the corporate hotels would always be in different spots that we stayed at.

So sometimes it would be like Trump Plaza in Central Park.

Other times it was way down toward, you know, Soho or Battery Park.

Yeah.

And then eventually the city like fell into place in my head.

But it's.

When you were an adult, though, would you have nights nights where you guys would go out to dinner after work and then have a couple drinks and then find yourself wandering until four o'clock in the morning?

Yeah, where you're just in a cab and it was like, we should go this place, this place, right?

My buddy works here.

And you're just.

But the cabs, I always appreciated the cabs thing versus what it's like out here.

Cause the difference in L.A.

since even like before I moved here.

Like if you watch swingers and everybody's in their cars and they have like multiple scenes where the five guys are driving in their cars.

Now like Uber Lyft LA is a little different, I think.

It is.

That shift happened exactly when I moved here to work for you.

It was almost exactly in 2012 when you could feel Uber really like arriving in the city.

And so the designated driver as an idea kind of went out the window.

But like last night we went out and I didn't have a drop of alcohol because I was driving around the city everywhere we went, every spot that we stopped into.

So it's a, it's a big change.

In New York, you can get ripped shit at 8 p.m.

and be out for another eight hours.

Like it's just a totally different experience.

Well, so let's talk the New York piece first, and then we'll talk about Scorsese.

Because, so Griffin Dunn was talking about

who's the star of the movie, and he's talking about this is there's an oral history about the about the movie that's good, but he says the events of After Hours were not dissimilar from my life at that time.

I would make immediate connections with total strangers

in places that it might not have been a good idea to be in.

That's why young people came to New York to have experiences that were terrifying, exhilarating, sexy, and dangerous.

So, that's like 70s, first half of the 80s, New York, that we love.

It's been very romanticized.

It's been in a lot of good TV shows and movies.

And

the time of things.

Sydney Lumette, you know, the Serpico New York, the hard-bitten city.

It's a little dangerous, but a little exciting.

Yeah.

So there's been like the dangerous genre movies.

There's been like the super fun New York's alive kind of movies, but you also have Saturn Lives there and you have this crazy disco scene and punk music and just everything's happening.

And it just seems like a really exciting place.

But then you could have nights like this where you meet, you meet a girl and you end up and you don't know where you are.

And it just feels like you've entered this alternate universe, which is one of the best things about this movie.

It's just fucking weird the entire time.

It's a, it's a, it's a dark side of the yellow brick road kind of a movie.

And literally he's walking down brick roads in this neighborhood.

And it is like very much a Wizard of Oz kind of homage.

And it's like if Dorothy instead walked into the black and white darkness rather than the color that she walks into when she enters Oz.

That's the idea you're supposed to have.

Seems like he's going to have one of the most fun nights of his life.

He's picked up a hot girl in the diner and he's going to have fun and he's going to explore the downtown scene.

He's going to meet a hot sculptor and he's going to experience a certain kind of culture that's a little far away from him.

And then it goes bad.

And then it goes worse.

Yeah.

So the cocaine, screwball, paranoia era, can we call it?

Sure.

After hours, into the night, desperately seeking Susan, something wild.

There's something.

Those first three are all 1985, which is so interesting that you can feel all the creative people are all kind of feeling the same way about what it's like to go out at that stage of their lives, which is so interesting.

Well, it's either people who are on cocaine or people who had just quit cocaine or people who had been around a lot of cocaine.

There's like an energy to these movies that I think would just be weird now.

I totally agree.

And these people were entrusted with millions of dollars to make these movies.

Right.

Scorsese, it seems like he's in the aftermath of his crazy movie.

I can't wait to talk about that.

You know, like he's not at the peak of the mania of him using when he's making this movie it feels like he's channeling but he lived it for previous experiences yes yes and then it seems like some of the people that are in this movie are in the middle of it like griffin dunn's pretty open about it yes that john hurd who plays the bartender and they were like it's perfect casting because in real life this guy was just taking it down all over town well think about just the production of the movie is they just had to be up all night every night yeah the movie was only shot five to five so you got to be up five to five what's the best way way to stay up in those off hours?

You know, I can't even imagine.

Um,

it was also a polarizing movie.

Pauline Kale hated it.

Shocking.

I think she just lost her way in the mid-80s.

Yeah.

That's the recurring theme.

She got she got cynical.

She got bitter.

She really did.

The pieces are still really so well written, but she doesn't really have her finger on the pulse anymore.

The critics did not like it, which I thought was fascinating.

But there's a Scorsese piece of this, though.

We just got to do the deep dive.

I reread a part of Martin Scorsese, A Journey this week, which I reread the Biscuin book for all the Scorsese parts.

I read a couple other things.

Yeah, I mean, it's all documentary.

It's all out there.

Yeah.

Basically breaks down from cocaine in 1978.

Yep.

After he's done New York, New York, which bombs,

and is going to die.

His body's just full of blood and poison.

And they're basically like, we don't know how you're not dead yet, but you have to cut all this cold.

He's famously asthmatic, already not, you know, dying.

Yeah, all his friends are like, you're going to die.

What are you doing?

And then ends up making Raging Bull with De Niro,

which he feels like is a massive failure because it doesn't do well and then it doesn't win the best film Oscar.

Correct.

And yet it wasn't a massive failure because then, as the years pass, everyone thinks it's one of the best movies of the 80s.

Plus, De Niro wins best actor.

It was acclaimed at the time, too.

But he, for some reason, felt like he failed.

It was not a huge box office success.

It kind of had like a real kind of middling reception, but it was, I mean, it was nominated for eight Oscars, Raging Bull.

And it remains a masterpiece.

Hard movie to watch, but a masterpiece.

I don't really fully understand it, but his cohorts, which we've talked about before in this,

Lucas is now a megastar.

Spielberg is about to be a megastar again with E.T.

and Raiders and everything, poltergeist, everything that's happened with him.

Well, think about we did Close Encounters and Star Wars recently, both in 77.

And his movie in 77 is New York, New York, Famous Bomb.

And then he's kind of spiraling there.

It's those two.

It's the Palma.

It's a whole bunch of people, but two of the guys are ascending.

And then him and Coppola.

Coppola has one from the heart in 82.

That bomb is a similar design.

Bankruptcy studio.

Scorsese feels like he can't buy a break.

He's trying to get Last Temptation of Christ done.

Nobody will do it.

And well, it's a great story about what happens with it.

Because it's about to happen.

I mean, it's this famous novel written about the sort of humanity of Christ, which is like, what if Christ was actually a person who is susceptible to lust, human desire,

a decision to maybe go against the path of God that is, that we all understand.

We just accept that Christ is this like perfectly moral figure.

And this novel kind of reckons with this idea.

And Scorsese, almost all of his movies are about faith and redemption.

He's obsessed.

He's a god.

He's a Catholic.

And he's like a dyed-in-the-wool Catholic, but he's like, I'm a flawed person.

We're all flawed people.

It's his dream to make a movie about Christ as a flawed person and explore what that means.

And he's trying to get it made at Paramount.

He's trying to shoot it in Israel, in the Holy Land.

And Paramount's like, what about aliens?

Literally, they're like, why would we spend $10 million?

And there starts to be a letter-writing campaign from one of the Catholic leagues.

And they get 500 letters a day.

Do not let Martin Scorsese make a movie about Christ and not this novel for sure.

Yeah.

And they buckle and they cancel the movie.

He was going to make the movie.

He had a budget.

He had a cast.

I think at the time it was

Aiden Quinn was going to play Jesus Christ.

De Niro did not want to play Christ.

Smart.

I'm doing this because we'll never do The Last Temptation of Christ on the Rewatchables, I assume.

I really like the soundtrack.

It is a good soundtrack.

I was really cranking it in the late 80s.

Peter Gabriel.

It is Peter Gabriel.

Yeah.

So Aiden Quinn is Christ.

Harvey Keitel is Judas.

Do you want to do Last Temptation of Christ on the Shadow?

Stanis Punches Pilot?

Yeah.

It's fucking, I don't even think they show it on TV anymore.

But the version that eventually got made, which which is like seven or eight years later, is Willem Defoe Plays Christ.

Yeah.

But the version that they were going to do is, it's just, it's a massive, it is one of the massive sliding doors in movie history because him not making it leads to him making this movie and a couple of other movies that are really interesting.

And

I will posit, this is not even my hot take, but I will posit, I don't know if Goodfellas happens

if this movie doesn't happen.

You're 100% right.

So it's kind of good that that movie got canceled, even though it was so heartbreaking for him and he needed to retreat so bad.

He felt like he was as low as he'd ever been after they canceled.

Well, and we didn't mention it for comedy, which bombs.

Yes.

And he does that as a favorite in Zadero.

Yes.

That movie bombs.

He can't get Last Temptation of Christ done.

And he just feels like I've blown my shot.

I'm going to be the promising director that people talk about 40 years from now.

And I fucked it up.

Yeah, which is interesting too, because he had already made Mean Streets.

Alice doesn't live here anymore.

Raging Bull.

Like, he'd already done enough to be.

You know, but his friends are making billion-dollar movies.

You're right.

So Biskin said he met with Fox about King of Comedy and why they didn't support it.

Okay.

This is Scorsese's quote.

They explained that it didn't pay for them to support King of Comedy any further at the box office.

So after a month, they were going to pull it.

The same thing happened that year at Fox with Robert Altman's health.

They didn't even release the film.

Altman didn't do another studio picture for like 10 years.

I realized at that point nobody cared.

And that was when I really understood that the 70s were over for me, that the directors, the ones with the personal voices, had lost.

The studios got the power back.

Today you look at an ad, you don't even know who directed a picture.

We were talking about this with the Star Wars pod.

This is kind of the culmination for him realizing like we're fucked.

Coppola went the other way and he's like, we don't need the studios.

I'll pay for everything myself.

And it's like, yeah, you just went bankrupt.

This is why we need the studios because they're taking a bunch of different bets.

Some work, some don't.

If you're just like doing a studio where you're making all the bets yourself, good luck.

Coppola is still convinced, though, that this is the right way.

This is how he did Megalopolis.

And there are some guys who think to be independent is better.

And then there are some people who do the devil's bargain of working with a big company so that they can get the thing that they want.

But Scorsese was right.

This was the era of...

die hard and lethal weapon was coming yeah and simpson and bruckheimer and that's where everything was you know flash dance like that's where hollywood was going and the hollywood that he had so much i wonder what made him because when he's making this that's all just starting.

It's like that's 85 is First Blood,

two,

Rambo for Reverdo.

Beverlow's cop hits,

all the Schwarzenegger stuff starting.

Yep.

Back to the Future.

Then they sign up two sequels for that.

And something's shifting.

And he's seeing it.

And he's like, this is bad for me.

There's a flip side to that coin that we don't talk about as much on the show, which is that.

Do I love all those movies?

Well, those movies are good.

It's not that.

It's that there is still a kind of

a tourist Hollywood, but it's very respectable and stuffy.

Like the movie that won Best Picture in 1985 is Out of Africa.

Right.

So there is still a version of movie making that is important and culturally meaningful, quote unquote, but it's not cool and it's not exciting and audacious the way that the new Hollywood guys were.

Like the movies that are nominated that year, Color Purple, Kiss of the Spider-Woman, Pritzy's Honored by John Houston, and Witness.

Peter Weir's a great filmmaker, John Houston's a great filmmaker.

Those are not like the most audacious movies of their careers.

So that crew of guys

have either become blockbuster filmmakers or they're starting to kind of get left behind a little bit.

Yeah, yeah, and so that's I'm sure what he was feeling.

It felt like it felt like this in the time, and then even as we look back when we do all these older, older ones, like that first half of the 80s, especially,

there was a certain like Oscars had a type,

and it was like, oh, it's big, lavish, and there's a true story trailer.

Yeah, it's based on something, there's a really cool theme song, and that's just kind of what worked.

Yeah, and the stuff Scorsese was doing, I think for when he lost Raging Bull to Ordinary People, when he lost the best film, and he was like devastated.

But like, we did Ordinary People.

That movie was really good.

Yeah.

I don't, I, I, I mean, it's better than Out of Africa.

Yeah, there's been some other Oscar ones where we're like, oh my God.

Yeah.

Wow.

How did that happen?

I don't know if that's one of those.

We just talked about this with Gandhi, too.

What did Gandhi beat famously?

Something else that was just like so clearly the superior film in RT

It was E.T.

Yeah.

So, you know, there's, there's that's the Oscars had a type.

And then as we kind of moved into the 90s, that flip.

But so anyway, he needs a job.

He said, I thought it'd be interesting to see if I could go back and do something in a very fast way, all style and exercise completely in style.

And I think this is why I love this movie.

And it's so weird.

And I have a complicated relationship with this movie because I don't really enjoy it that much as an experience because it's so stressful.

It's very stressful.

But it's so artfully done and it's so weird that it's just kind of riveting.

But it's a weird one.

It's not like one of those who would be like, say to your wife, like, let's Friday night, let's bang out after hours.

This is just in this weird area over here.

It's funny that you say that because my wife does love this movie.

This is one of her favorites because it's not that violent.

So like, obviously I watch a lot of Scorsese movies at home and most of his movies are defined by the relationship to violence.

This movie has some violence, but it's kind of jokey.

It's really just about a guy who keeps getting stuck.

It's just keeps getting worse, more stressed and more stressed as time goes by.

So, for me, it is an all-time personal favorite.

I'm really just stoked that we're even talking about it right now because,

you know,

I have some anxiety.

You know, I've certainly felt like this is a good representation of a certain kind of a guy who

wants to have fun, but maybe doesn't realize what it means to try to have fun.

fun.

Like, it's a very representative movie.

It's also like, it's loaded with ideas.

Like, the whole movie is like a castration examination of every time a guy gets close to a woman,

he wants to sleep with her, but it's like a little bit dangerous.

And, you know, the sort of fear and desire that goes into being a man at this time in history.

And the movie is populated by all these beautiful women and the sense of like a guy who doesn't know how to really engage with any of them, even if he thinks he does.

So, for all those reasons, it's a lot of fun.

But the style thing that you pointed out is the number one reason because this is him making a big shift.

And he kind of has stayed in this style of movie ever since.

He'll have the occasional, like he made Kunda and he made The Last Temptation of Christ.

He makes some movies that are silenced.

His religious movies are more slower-paced and more painterly, I would say.

Age of Innocence is, but this movie cuts fast.

The camera moves fast.

Yeah.

It's rock and roll energy.

And you said, like, the way that Goodfellas looks and feels, it starts right here.

And it starts because of Michael Wall.

Close-ups of a clock.

Yes.

There's, you know, there's that famous shot in this movie where the camera whips in on Marcy right before she walks out the door and winks at Griffin Dunn.

And you're like, that's Goodfellas.

Yeah.

It's not, nobody has a gun in their hand, but it's that feeling of like...

You're a key going in the door, close-up of the key.

Yes.

And that film is going to be a little bit more.

You jump cutting him walking up the stairs.

There's that.

It's so many tricks.

So that energy is so, it's just so fun to watch a movie that feels like that.

I think it's, he's one of the only directors.

You know, we always talked about

with writers, if you could cover the byline of a piece you're writing and know who the writer is, then that writer, you know, the writer's doing something right.

Be like, oh, I know who that is.

Hey, you were one of those guys.

Oh, thank you.

Tyler Parker is like that.

100%.

Cover the byline.

It's like, that's Tyler Parker.

Yep.

Scorsese is a good thing.

He's the highest compliment I think you can pay a writer.

It's a good one.

Scorsese definitely, there's some sort of style that he has that you can you can you can be like, I bet if somebody just blindfolded or you had amnesia and you came out of it and you're like, guess what?

Director, he's one of the few that I feel like I would know who the director is.

You know what's cool with him too?

He's also one who, if you, uh,

if you blindfolded yourself and just listened to the music in a movie, you'd be able to know right away.

Cause this is the same thing as Goodfellows 2, where it's like heavy score, 50s needle drops, punk rock.

No Rolling Stones somehow.

No Rolling Stones.

That's true.

Can't believe he didn't work in like dead flowers or just some sort of random.

What was the Stones records like in the 80s?

I'm not as up on the Stones in the 80s.

He could have dipped right into Tattoo You and done

something from that.

That kind of like fake disco stuff that they were doing.

Yeah, that could have worked.

Well, Scorsese loved it.

And he called this movie kind of a miracle, a rejuvenation.

Every time I put my eye to the viewfinder, I was happy.

I could sit down, look at the set with detachment.

It was a great feeling.

I regained the freedom I felt when I was starting out.

It was a real gift.

It made me think, like,

and we talked about Kugler, I remember with somebody on Ringer Movies about

how I just wish he made more movies, which is like kind of like a shitty thing to say in some ways where it's like, I wish you did your job more.

You just wish you had more of his movies to watch.

I just wish sometimes great directors would just be like, fuck it.

I'm just going to do this movie for four months.

Like Soderberg's really good at this.

He'll just be like, fuck it.

I'm going to make a movie.

I'm just going to bang one out but he'll be like I like the script it'll take three months we'll see how it goes it's some of it depends on how you work though like Soderbergh shoots and edits his movies he holds the camera when he makes the movie he is doing everything and so for him he cuts the movie together while he's making it because it's all in his head yeah

he's an alien you know what i mean like so he of course he's gonna end his career with like 95 movies it's amazing and he's constantly working coogler is trying to make $100 million movies and they take years to put together.

And you got to make sure that all the stars are available at the right time.

You got to make sure all the, you're creating a lot of it.

I get it, but I just wish I could see Ryan Kugler's After Hours where he was just like, yeah, it's just everything takes place in one day and I did some weird shit.

But you can only make movies like After Hours when you're low.

True.

You know, or you could decide to make a small movie, but he felt like he was at the bottom.

You know, Kugler's at the top.

He's been at the top for 10 years.

Stan Kubrick is another one.

Yeah, he took his time.

Stan, huh?

Stan.

Yeah, my guy Stan.

Stan, Stan Kubrick.

Interesting.

I call him Stan.

Just like he was a New Yorker.

Just throw a buddy cop, New York Buddy Cop movie, just randomly.

I'll tell you, he was directed to

Die Hard 3.

Would watch it.

Would watch it.

Would have been great.

I wouldn't take McTiernan away from Die Hard 3, but I would watch Stan Kubrick's Die Hard 4.

I'm not going to forget Stan Kubrick.

Our guy, Stan.

You think you'd get along with Kubrick?

Think you'd be boys?

I think it's I think what he did to Cruise and Kidman, where he was just clearly trying to break them emotionally, was really the most interesting thing he did.

He related to that.

No, just that he was like, this marriage is so fascinating to me.

I'm just going to make them do scene after scene after scene and see what can happen here.

He had a filmmaking style.

Should we do the re-eyes wide shut and do it live in the weirdo in London?

Just me and you.

Just looking at each other the whole time.

So, Griffin Dunn said,

I think it's great.

Yeah.

I love the way he's talking about the movie.

I love the way he goes through the night and finally comes out on the other side.

It's like a sleepless night, a night of horrifying dreams.

You're floating through another world with no idea of one or how it would resolve.

I wonder if that's what attracted Scorsese to this too.

That this is like

almost like a fever nightmare.

Yeah.

And God only knows what kind of baggage he had from 76, 77, 78.

Yeah, I'm sure you're almost

in a sinkhole of a day.

Yep.

I think he's also probably

interested in surreal art.

And most of his art up until this point is pretty realistic, you know, pretty dramatically realistic.

You know, taxi driver does kind of feel like a nightmare at times, but.

Raging Bull shot in black and white almost feels like documentaries.

Somebody put a camera in Jake LaMotta's family's house and you're like, oh my God, I'm not supposed to be be seeing this.

So, this is tremendously different with the way the camera is moving, like we're talking about, the way the things keep escalating and getting worse and worse.

And this feeling of just like, it's almost like, you know, a feeling when like a bug is crawling on you and you're itching and you're like, God, get that off of me.

Like, the movie kind of feels like that sometimes.

And he's just well suited to it.

And maybe he is just channeling those cokey nights, you know, those so many nights of being completely consumed by baby Coke Daddy.

Plus, like, nobody had any idea how bad Coke was for you.

Yeah.

Like, hey, is this bad for us?

I don't know.

Jenny's in the bathroom with her nosebleeding, but I think she'll be okay.

After this movie,

Goodfellows is five years later.

Yep.

He also does Last Temptation of Christ.

Kind of writes the shit, but then Goodfellows is when.

Well, you're forgetting two things that I think are pretty critical.

One is the color of money.

And the color of money fell out of my style.

And that same thing, that camera is flying across the pool table.

And I think it's because he's working with Michael Bauhaus.

So Michael Bauhaus is German cinematographer.

Ciara's guy.

CRS guy.

They start working together.

Ballhouse hive.

They make seven movies together, all bangers.

And he's the one who, with Thelma Schoonmaker's editing style, they built this kind of new version of the Scorsese movie.

So you got Color of Money.

And then the second thing that you got that I really like that is a little underrated is his segment.

of New York stories, which is called Life Lessons.

It's Nick Nulty and Rosanna Arquette.

Nick Nulty plays a painter, and Roseanne Arquette plays like his assistant and former lover.

If people haven't seen it, it's a weird movie.

It's a trilogy.

It's like an omnibus movie.

Woody Allen, Francis Ford Coppola, and Scorsese make a part of those movies.

Scorsese's is by far the best to me.

But those movies are.

Coppola's is pretty rough.

It stars his daughter, Sophia.

Yeah.

And she's very young.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I wouldn't say Woody's is very good either, to be honest, but I love life lessons.

And so this little pocket of time is what takes us to Goodfellas, Cape Fear, Cassino.

Like those movies wouldn't happen without these movies.

Let's take a break and then we'll talk about the ladies in this movie.

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All right.

Just quick on the cast because it's all over the place.

And I have a different spot for Griffin Dunn.

Okay.

But Roseanne Arquette and Linda Fiorentino in the same movie.

I don't even know really how to describe this as a kid who was alive in 1985, two of the greats.

Fiorentino.

This is being recorded.

Yeah, I get it.

I was 16.

Roseanne Arquette is

otherworldly in this movie.

She in 1985 is in Silverado after hours of desperately seeking Susan.

I wrote this down too.

Yeah.

Cooking.

And if somebody at age 16 had come up to me and said,

you could make out with her, but you have to kill three people.

I would have been like, which three?

A close friend or like an acquaintance?

Pick the three.

The president?

You can spend 24 hours with her.

You have to kill 10 people.

Would you have killed Ronald Reagan for Roseanne?

Or can answer the question?

And she was also an executioner song with Tommy Lee Jones, which is where I first saw her, which is a TV movie.

She was so beautiful and so idiosyncratically.

There's really nobody like her.

And her personality, her speaking voice, everything about her is just intoxicating in this movie.

I do this sometimes on the rewatchables where I always get mad that somebody wasn't in more good stuff.

She's like a first ballot for me.

I just don't understand it.

And the parts must have been so bad.

And I think there was this mentality in the 80s and 90s where, oh, somebody had their moment for a year.

Let's move on to the next actress.

And you just kind of got left behind.

It's so funny that Tarantino.

That's what I was going to say.

But he did, that's why he did this.

Yeah.

Because he was like, why is he going to be like

that?

Yeah.

She's like, she's right there.

I know.

I know.

She's the one with all the shit on her face.

That's my wife.

Trudy.

Yeah.

But yeah, it's just, I don't understand it.

I don't know.

Stop bothering me.

That's my favorite Eric Stoltz, too.

Every moment she's in the movie, you're like, can she be in the movie more?

I know.

i i it's a i don't know if it's a what if and she did cool stuff like she's in cronenberg's crash she was in um like buffalo 66 she was in some cool movies later on but she she she could have been should have been just a big mainstream movie star obviously her whole family is in the movie i was gonna do this later i'll do it now like

i don't know meg ryan some of the parts meg ryan had from basically the

late 80s on.

People might say that.

Like she could have had half of those?

People might scoff at that, but if you watch her in Desperately Seeking Susan, that's a Meg ryan part yeah you know what i mean like she it's the same kind of a character where you're like with her she's the empathetic like regular girl she could have been a win harry met sally easily i totally agree it's a weird one i feel like she could have been kelly mcgillis and top gun yeah definitely you pick a movie from 86 to like 93 and i feel like she could have been the lead dude i'm so just loved her and i also this is a big reason why

I have such a big relation to this ship to this movie is because I'm like, this is the Roseanne Arquette movie.

This is the movie that like got her the most right out of any movie.

You know, she's good in like Eight Million Ways to Die and stuff like that, but this is the one where she, you can feel Scorsese idealizing that feeling when you meet somebody and you're like, whoa, who is she?

Yeah.

I want to be closer to her.

Here's who she was.

Toto was like, what's right, Rosanna about Roseanne Arquette?

Because she walked into the room and we fucking had to write a song about it.

It was that spectacular.

It's captured in the Yacht Rock documentary.

Yes.

I don't understand.

If some people are just obviously movie stars, I don't understand how some of them don't end up in better movies.

Fiorentino is a little more easy to understand because

this is CR, who couldn't be here because he's away.

Yeah.

We didn't, we didn't intentionally not have CR in this.

He's just not here.

No, I said, stay home, Chris.

I got this.

We were maybe a little worried about the Fiorentino part because

we might have to hose him down.

I asked him if he had

one thing for CR to say in the pod.

Can I guess what he said?

Yeah.

I want her to step on my neck.

No.

No.

He said,

can you please say that Linda Fiorentino is a CR Throw Your Life Away Hall of Famer?

Yeah.

Especially.

I probably would have said that anyway, but fine.

Ripping heaters, making plaster of Paris, Edward Munch.

First time you say her, she's in a bra for no reason.

And she's just taking her top off in front of strangers.

Interesting movie.

She's in this in Vision Quest in the same year.

Vision Quest, which is,

we already did that on the rewatchables.

Yeah.

But the premise of a high school kid, and

this hot lady is staying in the upstairs room, and there's no way she'd have sex with them.

He's only 17, and it's the entire, the whole movie hinges on it.

And then, guess what?

They have sex.

She, that's the wrestling movie?

Yeah.

Okay.

Matt Modine.

What's the cycling movie that Matt Modin was in?

Or am I thinking of Kevin Bacon?

What's his cyclone?

That's Quicksilver.

Quicksilver.

Yeah.

Okay.

All right.

Yeah.

He was in a sailing movie, Wind, with Jennifer Gray, Matthew Modin.

Haven't seen it.

Yeah.

Tuby.

Got it.

So Linda Fiorentino,

red hot.

Yeah.

And then just stops acting for like two years, doesn't like it, and then just kind of bounces back and forth.

And that's what I'm going to do with potting.

Taking two years off.

Where's Sean?

He's just gone for two years.

But I'm coming back with my last seduction.

But she has the ability to come in

just red hot for like two scenes.

And a couple directors realized it.

Some other ones they didn't.

She got kind of typecast as the femme fatale.

Yeah.

There was, I think, a bunch of other stuff she could have done that they never really unlocked.

Real mixed reports on how fun she was to work with over there.

It seems like, yeah, that's she's definitely when they talk about the difficult actress group, she gets thrown in there.

She does.

But

when she's on the screen, you're not looking away.

She's a presence.

What's she up to?

She is a presence.

This is an apartment that features Linda Fiorentino and Roseanne Arquette living together at this time.

Unbelievable.

It's a lot.

CR never would have been seen again.

He just would have been in plaster.

No.

He would have been forced.

He would have been in all leather.

And then Terry Garr.

CR is worst.

Can we photoshop that?

Yes.

That should be the image that we share this episode with.

Terry Garr also went ahead in the mid-80s because this is when she's one of Letterman's best guests.

She's an established famous actress from Tootsie and Close Encounters.

She's hilarious and a bunch of other stuff.

Yeah.

And this is like just Terry Garr being Terry Garr.

An amazing, amazing Letterman guest for the first four years.

Like probably she's seen a letter.

She just had like such a good chemistry with him.

He did it.

They were flirty together.

Super flirty.

He did the famous episode she did was he did a whole show in his office.

They just filmed it in the office and it was like this experimental show in the office.

And at the end of it, he convinced her to take a shower in her bat, in his bathroom.

And she came out with all these towels on and she's like, I can't believe you're making me do this.

And then she went in.

They made it so they covered everything.

You couldn't see anything.

And he just basically dared her to take a shower and she did it.

And it's just like fucking crazy.

You think that would happen today?

It would not.

Okay.

It would not.

But she was like ready.

She would go on and she would be ready for anything with Letterman and she would go back and forth.

And you're always like, why don't these two end up together?

It's funny because she is so good as

the woman who like grabs on a little too quick.

Yeah.

She's like a little too interested.

Yeah.

And you're like, and he's got this other girl in the back of his head and he's kind of been thrown off the scent, but she's very good at that clingy thing.

And then Catherine O'Hara, who I think, I'm just going to say,

I think looks smoking hot in this movie.

She looks great.

And we don't think of her that.

She's like Jennifer Anderson.

She, you know, it's like that's the mom from home alone.

Shit's creeped.

She's gone on to be this like beloved character actor.

He's eating Beetlejuice, like lots and lots of parts.

In this movie, as the Mr.

Softy lady, chef's kiss.

I love it.

Yeah, it taps into something that I don't really think she did in any other movie.

Yeah.

And, you know, she had been.

I guess maybe best in show is the other one.

Yeah.

When

what I forget what her character name is, but she she had a history, yeah, everybody she met.

There's some sort of like energy with her that SCTV hit, and then in movies, and then eventually she became home alone lady for a while.

Yeah, but she is like, she has a sexiness to her that she doesn't is not usually asked to tap into because she's usually just playing mom.

She's good in this, yeah, $4.5 million budget, made $10.6 million.

Not great,

not great.

Raj,

four stars, put Put it on his great movies list.

Scorsese's attempt continues to combine comedy and satire with unrelenting pressure and a sense of all-pervading paranoia.

All-pervading paranoia.

Pretty much right.

Big good book.

Pauline Kale.

Scorsese's using his skills and even his personality like a hired hand.

making a vacuous, polished piece of consumer goods all surface.

That's

gonna get a fuck you Pauline for me.

It's first ever we've had.

Okay.

I've had a few fuck you Rajes.

I have to do fuck you Pauline.

Do you think we should do a social media breakout of you cursing out prominent critics of the time?

Yeah.

Just string it all down.

Vacuous polished piece of consumer goods.

Talk about missing the movie.

That is a gross misunderstanding.

How are you doing?

You know, I think about this sometimes doing the big picture.

Like, we know a little bit too much about how movies are made, right?

We know a little bit too much about the production, the backstory.

Yeah.

Like, F1 is out this weekend, and that's a movie that was made during the strikes.

And we there were rewrites and then reshoots.

And you bring some of that stuff to the conversation.

So, her saying that this is just like an assignment job, you know, that she's using that as a lens to analyze the movie as opposed to just looking objectively at the movie.

You can't.

There's no way to separate the two things.

So, I understand, but we don't think about the movie in that way.

When I saw it, I didn't think like, oh, this is just Corsese taking a job so he can get back on the track that he can eventually make a lot of sensation of Christ.

Why can't he do that?

I agree.

Like, he can't fucking get a job.

Maybe he couldn't find a better movie.

I don't know.

I agree.

It's very strange.

Bad take.

Bad take by Pauline.

Categories: most rewatchable scene.

Roseanne Arquette's first scene in the diner.

Some good camera work going on in that one, too.

I love that book.

Fiorentino back rub scene.

I have that.

I wrote down.

This is one of my favorite dumb movie devices when somebody's telling a long story that somehow gets rudely interrupted, or and we never find out the punchline or the money shot of the story.

This one's particularly good because he realizes she's asleep just as he's about to complete the story.

And we never know what happens.

I love when they do that.

At least I think it was night.

I reached up

to untie the blindfold.

And

Right, so

one of my favorites is Halloween, the original one.

Loomis is looking for Myers' grave, and the Undertaker is telling this long story.

And then he showed up and he's like, Where are we?

It just interrupts him.

We never find out what happened.

That's the carpenter's sense of humor.

The diner scene with Marcy, the second time, my husband was like it's happening.

Yes, yes.

And the guy who runs the diner says the title in the movie.

Dick Miller.

Yeah.

Legendary, that guy.

The Subway token scene I have

when the guy won't let him go for an extra dollar.

Yeah, the fare went up at midnight.

And Griffin Dunn looks around and he's like, who's going to know?

And he's like,

I could go to a party, get drunk, tell somebody.

Who knows?

I love that guy.

That's so funny.

Marcy dying, even though I have some other thoughts on it, but it fucking kills me when he puts the side up.

When he puts the dead body with the arrow.

Yeah, that is very funny.

It's just like so, it's we're at another level of black comedy with that.

She just killed herself in the bedroom.

He's like, dead body.

The moment before that, though, it's so funny to me when he's removing the blanket to reveal that she doesn't have any burns.

Right.

And he's like, damn it, I shouldn't have left.

I could have slept with her.

She could have not killed herself.

This is the darkest, dark comedy.

It's blacker than black.

It's like a purple comedy.

The Terry Gar scene is just really funny.

She's dialing it up.

I think the terminal bar in general, going to the bar where Heard is the bartender and she's like slipping him the notes and Heard can't get the cash register open.

All that stuff is so great.

And that's like your classic what the hell is going on here new york city bar it's like 1 30 in the morning and there's four people the weather guys guy can't work the cash register won't open

um and that is a very i mean that's that new york is still alive like that's a thing you can find today the punk rock club punk punk rock club yes when they're like mohawk this guy club berlin yeah um the catherine harris scene in the apartment when he's trying to remember the phone number and she's just saying other numbers, which is something I did for 30 years.

Now you don't, everyone has the numbers.

I say that to my wife all the time.

It's a great bet.

Crazy.

It is a great bet.

She'd be like, okay, so it's two, five.

And I'd be like, five, nine, eight, seven.

I think, but that came from this movie.

I'd never seen anyone.

You just kind of distilled your sense of humor right there.

Yeah, you're doing that.

There's nothing funny in that.

Thank you.

Five, eight, six, two.

Don't.

Nine, three, eight.

Zero.

Now I have forgotten the number.

What is wrong with you?

Are you all right?

The Verna Bloom is that all there is.

You got all my ones.

And then

I'd like the ending.

I know the ending is super polarizing.

They couldn't come up with one.

We could talk about it in the research.

The drop-off in the van or the end credit sequence around the office?

No, the drop-off.

I like that he's kidnapped in this van.

Does it, I mean, they don't know they're kidnapping him.

And then they turn and he just falls.

I actually think it works.

It's a great story.

I'm so upset about that.

Oh, we couldn't come up with the ending.

We had to throw this together.

I'm like, that ending's great, guys.

That's really, really clever.

And

it's almost like he woke up from a dream because he ends up where he started.

Like, how do they think, how do they feel bad about that ending?

I I don't know.

I think it's great too.

And even just that final thing where the camera's kind of whipping around that office space over the end credits, I just think it's such a per, it's almost like his mind is spinning inside trying to remember, like, did that really just happen to me?

It's such a good idea.

Yeah.

So, what do you got for Musry Watchable?

I mean, the one that is the most iconic to me is the diner conversation between Roseanne Arquette and Griffin Dunn.

She's the second one or the first one.

The second one, the one where she's like, my husband was a movie freak.

He loved to watch The Wizard of Oz over and over again.

Surrender Dorothy, all that stuff is just so like baked into the mythos of this movie for me.

So that's my favorite.

I have that as well.

Okay.

Surrender Dorothy is high comedy.

It's hilarious.

I don't even understand it.

I don't know how any writer would come up with that idea.

We didn't talk about the background with Joseph Minion, the guy who wrote the movie, but he wrote it when he was 21.

It was his senior thesis when he was in film school, and it got bought and then

hung around for a few years, five years.

But a lot of the stuff in the first half is all his.

his, is like stuff that he was writing.

And I think he got an A-plus on his thesis.

I would hope so.

And then it went on to get sold as this, like, wow, study of the male mind in New York City at night.

And then I think a lot of the back half is very Scorseseized.

I would have gotten Joe Minion as my screen name.

Joey Minion?

Or

Joseph Minion.

Joey Batts Minion?

Joseph Minion sounds like you were a philosopher in the 1500s.

I mean, he's a philosopher.

I read her Joseph Minion book.

Yeah.

What's the most 1985 thing about this movie?

I had four.

Did you have a pick?

I have

one obvious one, which is just Soho in the 80s.

That just Soho doesn't look like this anymore.

You still have those kind of cobblestone-ish brick streets and you still have those kind of tenement-style buildings, but there's just like,

you know, J.

Crew and Lambon down there now, you know, and like $8 coffee shops.

then some douchey people too, let's be honest.

Sorry, Soho.

I mean, you hate New York.

You can say it out loud.

I don't.

Do you resent New York?

No, I like because of our greatness.

I just don't like getting there.

I don't realize why it's like going to London now.

Because of the airport?

Everything.

Just you land and then it's another two plus hours to get in the city.

It's no walk in the park coming to LAX.

I mean, that's not, you know.

I also don't like the power walking situation in New York City these days with all the bikes.

Oh, yeah.

That's fair and and guess what maybe legalizing everybody being able to smoke pot and blow smoke pot smoke i'm no stranger to pot unlike in music

three blocks with uh i hate the the pot smoke thing in general and that sounds like an old guy but wow let's have some respect for people with kids pushing strollers we went to a party last night across the street from the party 7-11.

we're walking through the 7-eleven parking lot there's

a guy smoking a joint in the parking lot right next to a police cruiser.

And I was like, picture this 20 years ago.

That guy would have been thrown in the clink.

Why do I have to smell the secondhand pot smoke if I didn't sign up before people live?

You know, just like that.

So you don't want to be power walking in New York, but you do want to power walk in Los Angeles where people drive like maniacs and there are no sidewalks.

Yeah.

Okay.

Got it.

I just, I haven't power walked in New York enough because the whole thing where the bikes can just take the left and right turns and you just basically have to make, and I'm listening to a podcast on my headphones.

What are you listening to, Terminati?

Yeah.

Until until you got fired up

i have three i have four 1985 things about this movie okay opening credits the geffen company presents oh good one how many years were the geffen company even making movies yeah i'm not that long mostly in the 80s but that was him like leveraging his success as a music manager and trying to get into hollywood giving somebody a phone number I guess that's not necessarily 1985, but it's definitely 80s, 90s of like, let me write down your phone number or else there's no way to get a hold.

Now we would just be put on your phone.

Now you would just be like, I'll call you on your phone, and now you have my number.

Yeah.

A Bronson Pinchot cameo,

young Bronson.

That felt very 1985 to me, fresh off his playing Surge and Beverly Hills Cop and his risky business.

This was high time for him.

I mean, he's about to be Balky in Perfect Strangers.

You watch Perfect Strangers?

I didn't.

You didn't watch it?

Wasn't a fan.

What?

Didn't really like Balky.

This is shocking.

I was in high school school at that point.

I was too old.

You think you're better than me?

I just was too old.

Here's my choice, though.

Going all the way across Manhattan in a cab for $6.50.

Ooh.

I mean, he went like 90 bucks.

Also, he's holding a 20.

What is that, like 100 now?

Yeah, it's like 50.

It's like at least a 50.

Yeah.

But yeah, $6.5.

What is that cab right now?

That's $58.

Yeah.

I don't know about that much.

It's really expensive.

Yeah.

Really expensive.

I don't know.

I'm not in cabs as much in New York as I used to be.

Was there a better title for this movie?

Throwing that in.

There were other titles.

So it was originally called One Night in Soho.

Yes, which eventually became an Edgar Wright movie.

I'm not against One Night in Soho.

I think that the original script that Minion wrote was called Lot.

No, was it called Lies or was lies based on a story that there was like a theater

director who had told a story similar to meeting a girl in a diner and kind of going on a journey in New York.

And I think Minion based it on that.

And I think that was called lies.

Do we like After Hours as a title?

I do.

I think it's perfect.

You don't like it?

It's fine.

One Night at Soho is pretty good.

Yeah.

And then used in a movie about the other Soho, the original Soho, in London in 2022 by Ikea Ray.

What age the best?

I love this specific data point.

Martin Scorsese told Griffin Dunn to refrain from sex and sleep during filming in order to get a more realistic feeling of paranoia.

And this is what I do before every podcast.

I had this in the Steven Seagal

shitting on himself story that he didn't know was true or not.

Okay.

That's just a great idea.

A weird note to give someone.

Well, let's give all the backstory.

Okay.

This is what Griffin Dunn said.

Also, I love when people talk like this about themselves.

Actual quote from Griffin Dunn.

Marty knew I was a single man in New York who liked to party.

He knew I liked the ladies.

And he said, it's very important for Paul Hackett to have a look of desire in his eyes throughout the whole movie.

That's what gets him in this mess in the first place.

So I need you not to have sex for the first eight weeks of the shoot.

I said, no problem.

I can do that.

They start the massage scene on a Friday.

They go for the weekend.

And Griffin Dunn has what he calls a fucking accident.

Hooks up with somebody.

Monday, they're refilming the scene.

He's panting,

touching her back.

And in the first take, he's massaging her.

And Marty goes, cut, Griffin, come here.

Did you get laid?

You ruined this whole scene.

Like he sniffed out that he got laid.

You fucked up this whole scene.

The whole movie.

I trusted you.

And he was like really angry.

It's great stuff.

How does he know?

He's the master.

He's an ultimate Catholic.

He's the maestro.

Yeah.

Anyway, that story is amazing that's a good one not as good as steven zagos shitting on himself as he's being choked out on the set about for justice but really good pretty close yeah that's this is an amazing career you've made for yourself thank you um roseanne arquette 1985 it's got to be one of what's aged the best you already mentioned it's desperately seeking susan which is really good movie but for life yeah and in the world she was when when was roseanne 84 the toto song i think it was like a year yeah maybe a year before come back to her apex mountain i bet and then the big one for me with age the best is the home alone parents preview yeah I have that as well.

We get one

where we see Catherine O'Hara and John Hearn talking together.

We don't even hear them talk.

We just see them through a window.

And then soon they will be two of the most famous parents in movie history on the way and looking for somebody again.

That's right.

Someone who's lost.

I have

the weird New York characters because you could even add a couple, but specifically the incense cab driver, subway worker guy that we mentioned, and then Diner Guy are just like three so New York-y New York characters.

Both diner guys dick miller and victor argo also a legendary new york actor yeah they're both those are the two guys pouring coffee in that spot i love vigilante mobs just in general in movies when people just holding candles at 4 30 in the morning um

i have movies that use real phone numbers i always enjoy it oh good like i'm at 243 i'm like oh they used a real one yeah when you don't hear a 555 yeah it was like that i like that would you ever call one of the numbers you heard in a movie no but i know people do that okay

I like crazy.

Wait, do you want to give out your phone number right now?

Okay.

I like crazy New York City cab ride scenes because we've all been in those cabs when they're just like weaving through traffic and you're just like, oh my God, am I going to die?

So there's a special feature on the Blu-ray of this movie that's a conversation between Scorsese and Fran Leibowitz.

They're old friends.

And Fran Leibowitz also been living in New York for 100 years.

And she says about that moment when Griffin Dunn's character gets in the car and the cab just takes off.

She said, you nailed it because at that time, there was a change in New York.

In the 70s, all the cab drivers were like Jewish and Italian-American guys, and they all were just like family men who were trying to make a living.

And then something changed where the only people who drove cabs were maniacs.

Right.

And she's like, these maniacs had lead foots and they just fucking drove so much.

They just want to get to the next stop.

Yes.

So he had his finger on the pulse of something.

I'll probably get blamed for that.

It's really funny when he sees a woman shoot the guy in the in the apartment i love that part it's so weird and he's he's not like horrified he's just like i'll probably get blamed for that well we i haven't that's when the movie's just gone nuts but i haven't said like there's hitchcock and fritz lang noir movies are a huge influence on this movie and that's like such a perfect rear window moment where like you see something you weren't supposed to see and then we never think about it again right like it never comes up again someone got shot in this neighborhood yeah no no sirens no cop cars nothing it's like the russian and the sopranos the russian in the woods right surrender dorothy is Hilarious.

Just Cheech and Chong being in this movie is a What's Age of Best?

Smart move.

Chong said it was like we were in our own Cheech and Chong movie within a Scorsese movie, which is kind of true.

And that's all I have for WhatsApp the best.

I did forget to mention.

Well, I'll get to another category.

Well, the next award is the Sean Fantasy Award for stealth homage that gives every movie nerd a criteriorgasm.

I just ruined it.

I think Rear Window is my favorite one.

I mean, there's a lot of them, and a lot of them are about like modern art.

There's plenty of Louis Bunuel in the movie with the surrealism that you're finding and the Edward Munch painting and the plaster of Paris sculpture.

But I like seeing

that gal get shot or that guy shoot that, that girl shoot that guy.

Big Kahuna Burger Award for best use of food and drink.

The Uneaten Diner Cheeseburger, I always like when the

brings it over.

It almost feels like a character for two minutes.

Can we just talk very quickly about the the Mr.

Softie truck?

Yeah.

Did you grow up with Mr.

Softie?

Didn't really have him.

This is Mr.

Softie is a fucking religion on Long Island, or at least it was when I was a kid.

And there were two ice cream trucks.

There was your workaday ice cream truck.

We had that one.

All the regular stuff.

Get out all the blow pops, all the different things.

Everything in the wrapping, you know.

And then the Mr.

Softie truck was just dispensed by the machine.

Yeah.

Soft serve ice cream.

And sounds great.

You get it with sprinkles.

You get it with the candy shell, you know, the cherry shell.

And when it came, it was like Christmas morning.

It's Mr.

Softie was elite.

So Apex Mountain for Mr.

Softie?

It would probably be me at like nine years old after a baseball game.

Big Hoonerberger Award could technically be Mr.

Softie, but we don't actually see a Mr.

Softie in this.

So I don't think it's eligible.

Great shotgun award.

I don't even know where to go in this.

I'll just let you pick.

So there's the keys, which is an incredibly difficult shot to pull off.

Linda Fiorentino goes up to the roof after he gets the address of where Marcy is, and she throws the keys down off the roof.

And the keys are coming right at the camera.

For no reason.

You think it's leading to something?

And it really doesn't.

It's just a movie.

It's like a move.

I think, well, I mean, if you wanted to speak metaphorically, you could be like, sharp objects are racing towards this guy.

You know what I mean?

Like, this is danger at the very beginning of the movie setting us up for like, almost don't go in there.

But that shot apparently was really hard to do, really dangerous for Griffin Dunn to keep trying to do.

But it's very, very memorable.

I do think that shot of him flying in the cab where he's sitting in the back and it's bouncing and you're hearing the flamenco music and you're like, what is going on?

This movie has this weird pace and energy that I've never seen before.

And then I mentioned my favorite by far is the zoom in on Marcy when she winks to the camera.

That's my favorite shot.

I like when he's, it's like in the last 20 minutes, he's outdoors and he's kind of looking up and it's like a big crane shot that comes down on him.

It's just good.

That's a great one.

Kid Cody Pursuit Happiness Award for Best Needle Drop.

We do have the monkeys in this movie and we do have Joni Mitchell.

But I think the winner is, Is That All There Is?

by Peggy Lee.

A favorite song of my mom's.

A great song.

I think she said it's one of the great, it's one of the great divorce songs.

I believe that it was featured in a very memorable episode of Mad Men at the end credits in a similar, like post-Don

and no, Madmen.

Was it Sopranos?

Maybe it was Soprano.

It was a Sopranos, too.

Maybe it was Soprano.

I don't know.

I could have sworn there was a Betty and Don sequence.

Probably was.

Where, anyway, there's a couple of others I like.

One, I like the last train of Clarksville Monkeys dropped because Terry Garr was in in-head the Monkees movie.

Also,

pretty good song.

Great song.

I was kind of listening to it going, huh, might throw this on a summer mix.

Yeah, the monkeys are good, man.

Pay to come by Bad Brains in the club.

And then I think

Mozart's symphony, number 45, at the beginning of the movie, is pretty good.

Wolfie?

Yeah, Wolfie.

Pay to Come, but it's spelled C-U-M, just for the record.

Thanks for clarifying that.

Yeah, we noticed that in the soundtrack.

When, I'm not going to tell you, you know you're really serious when you're flipping the flipping the

rock icons.

When are we doing Amadeus?

Speaking of Wolfie.

That would be Oscar Winners Month.

Is that something you're going to do?

Yeah, I think so.

Interesting.

We're going to run out of movies.

We're going to do Oliver.

That's like five movies left.

What other Oscar winners do you want to do?

There's five movies left?

What are you talking about?

Annie Hall.

Interesting.

Who's going to be on that one?

Probably going to be a lottery.

You just get chosen to be in it.

Cool.

I love Annie Hall.

There's

some good Oscar winners left.

The Chess Rockwell and Brock Landers Award for best character name.

It's clearly Horst.

I will give.

Was Horst his first name or his last name?

I think it was kind of like the same thing.

Like Bob Horst?

Frankie Horst?

Horst Lewis?

Which way would you go?

Horst Johnson?

I think it's just Horst.

Also, the best stealth dog.

Well,

if you love this movie and you name your dog Horst, it's a good name.

And then somebody else gets it, they're like, after hours, it'd be a good one.

I do think second place is Kiki Bridges.

Kiki Bridges.

Kiki Bridges.

Downtown Sculptor.

That's a good one.

Marcy is also just a good.

It is a good name.

It's a name we've lost from the culture.

Nobody names our kid Marcy anymore.

You have a Sean Fantasy Flex category.

Okay, let me see which is the right one to do.

You can do two if you want.

So to me, scene stealing location, the Denith Benny Hanna Award is terminal bar, the bar that they go to, which was still open.

I think it's finally gone now.

The bar John Hard works.

That John Hard is the bartender in, which was a bar you could go to down the great bar.

It is gone, right?

I don't, I was reading about it last night.

I like how it's set up.

It's like very, that hole, it's on the one side.

Yes, you walk in, the bar's on the right, but it's got the curve on the bar.

You start tables.

Yeah.

I really love a bar like that where it feels like you can get a cup of coffee and get a beer at the same time.

That's kind of like my perfect bar experience.

I don't want to be in a loud bar that is just like running vertically and everybody's standing and trying to budge in to get a drink.

I want open space, I want some tables, and I want to feel like it's never full.

It looks like the Rocky One bar that they're that they're all watching the fight in.

Yes.

The same kind of setup, though, with the TV at the top.

And I was like, that would be my scene-stealing location.

That's a good one.

The Butcher's Girlfriend Award for week link of the film.

Just walk home.

It's 90 blocks.

This was my picnic knit.

Do it in an hour.

My picking knit is like, just leave.

Just go.

How about this?

There's more than one subway stop.

It's beyond a picking knit.

It's like, oh, I couldn't get in that subway stop.

Just walk two blocks and go to the next subway stop.

And maybe that guy will let you leave for 50 cents.

Great point.

I hadn't thought of that.

There's subway stops every two blocks.

I also think

walking, even if it was considered dangerous,

you're being chased by an angry mob.

Like there's nothing more dangerous than people who want to.

I guess it rains at some point, so maybe that's why you're not doing it.

But walking in the rain in New York City is a way of life.

Power 15, sure.

Yeah.

And you can't get mugged because he doesn't have any money.

He doesn't have anything.

Nothing to take.

Just as, well, I mean, he doesn't have any dignity either because Marcy killed herself.

Just go two blocks to the next subway.

Just keep trying subway stops until somebody lets you on, or you just hop over.

I'm with you.

Woodsage the worst.

Griffin Dunn's unibrow is just bizarre in this this movie.

I don't really understand it.

I thought about putting that in the most 1985 thing about it.

I just don't get it.

Does he even have that in

American Welsh in London?

I don't know.

It's a weird thing because he doesn't have it in future movies.

Somebody is obviously like, Griffin, you got to take care of this.

That has aged pretty bad.

I have some other, I have a couple of other What's Age the Worst.

I had Soho as well.

Like that, it's What's Age the Worst?

It's Age the Worst than that.

I think Soho is more fun when it was like this.

Well, I miss weird.

He's clearly been never been knifed in Alley.

That's in play, I think, at that time.

Yeah, okay.

I mean, the dumbasses who cancel Last Temptation of Christ, like, that's not ideal.

You don't want to tell Martin Scorsese he can't make a cool movie.

And actually, a lot of his career in this century is him, like, convincing people to give him a ton of money for movies.

But here's the most important what's aged the worst for me.

The name of this character is Paul Hackett.

When I was a kid, Paul Hackett was the offensive coordinator for the New York Jets.

And he was one of the worst offensive coordinators in the NFL.

And he was kind of my introduction to the Jets will never have a good offense, which has been a characteristic of my life.

Cut to 2023, Aaron Rodgers is traded to the New York Jets.

And who does he bring with him?

Paul Hackett's son, Nate Hackett.

Nathaniel Hackett.

Yeah.

And I get that feeling all over again.

And Nate Hackett, man, he just sucked at calling plays.

And I can't get, so Paul Hackett, the character.

You just hear the name.

It's just kind of ruined.

It's like, it's fucked up for me.

I can't.

I don't want to hear that name out loud.

It's a really good one.

The

Ruffalo Hannah Rubinik Partridge Over Acting Award.

I'm going to go Griffin Dunn here because he dials it up a couple times.

He's

going to be my choice.

It's a manic movie.

Yeah.

There's a couple of times when he just gets mad at Marcy, and I'm like, where'd that?

Why'd that come from?

We're sure it's not Will Patton?

That's Horst?

He's like the eyeliner and the tenor of his, the timbre of his voice.

And he's like, what was Horst really going to do?

That's almost the under acting.

What are you going to do, Horst?

You're going to kill this guy?

Joey Horst.

Horst Lewis.

Frederick Horst.

The Sierra thinks Luke Wilson could have been Harrison Ford's hottest take award.

I have one.

I have three.

You have three?

Yeah.

Well, do two and I'll do one.

This is a top three score Saisi movie of all time.

Okay.

It's Goodfellas King of Comedy in this movie.

And that leads directly to my second hot take, which is that his 80s are better than his 90s and maybe even better than his 70s.

Wow.

This is

gorgeous.

This is a hot take category.

Do you think his 80s are better than his 90s?

Would you like me to read his 80s?

Yeah.

Raging Bull, the King of Comedy, After Hours, The Color of Money, The Last Temptation of Christ, plus life lessons.

Five features, one short.

His 90s, Goodfellas, Cape Fear, Age of Innocence, Casino, Kundun, Bringing Out the Dead.

Now, Goodfellas is my favorite movie.

Yeah, but that's pretty soft after the top two.

70s, Box Car Bertham, Mean Streets, Alice Doesn't Live Here Anymore, Taxi Driver, New York, New York.

2000s?

2000s is Gangs of New York, The Aviator, the Departed.

2010s.

There are some people who could make the case that the 2010s are his best.

You wouldn't, but I might.

Shutter Island, Hugo, Wolf of Wall Street, silence the Irishman.

No.

Okay.

I think you're right.

Thank you.

I think it is the 80s.

Thank you.

What's yours?

I don't know if this is a war crime, but it's a crime against humanity and a crime against pop culture and entertainment and fun.

I don't know how Linda Fiorentino was never on the Sopranos.

Wow.

I just can't believe David Chase fucked that up.

And I have a great deal of respect for him.

How did she not have a three to four episode arc with Tony Soprano?

I think it would have been, maybe it was, it was too electric and too powerful.

And David Chase was worried that it could lead to some sort of world war.

It just feels like there can only be one situation with Annabella Siora.

Like Annabella Siora as Gloria.

That's that's in the

casino zone.

Could she have been a Soprano cousin that comes back

and used to tease Tony as a kid.

I like her as like maybe like a Milfier

or gets involved with Christopher.

Or if she comes in with Christopher and kind of maybe like messes with Christopher.

How is she not in the Sopranos universe?

I just don't understand it.

Is Linda Fiorentino alive?

Like, I, yeah, she's alive.

When was the last time she was in a movie?

She's alive.

Well, she was in Men in Black and Dogma

in the late 90s.

Danger.

And Soprano starts in 99.

And there's six years there where she could have been in any, she could have been the next door neighbor.

She could have been Genie Cusimano, whatever her name was like there's it just could have she could have been married to already buco like i hey could have gone i know that woman i forget that woman's name but she's she's so just saying i don't know how there wasn't a place for her somewhere she could have done a one episode arc where she's just with tony and then tony kills her like i don't know i always think about this but like okay let's just game this out linda fiorentino after dogma in 99 her last major starring role she's in the following movies ordinary decent criminal what planet are you from and where the money is Those are all studio movies.

2002, she makes Liberty Stand Still.

Yeah.

And then nothing for seven years.

Yeah.

She's in a movie called Once More with Feeling in 2009 and then never works again.

Yeah.

I think maybe there was some,

maybe there was some off-the-set baggage.

Who knows?

I get it, but here's an important question.

How does this person make money?

How is this person alive?

I always think about this when you're like, you've been an actor since you're 19.

Right.

You work, you stop working.

She invested.

maybe she bought some like apple stock doesn't seem like she's married i don't

have questions she's some questions yeah should we get her on a podcast should she host a podcast i don't know about that um

i just felt like she could have had one to three episodes on sopranos i think it's a great take where you when when are you doing jade

never that movie's awful i saw that in the theater with nicaida my buddy okay You made it sound like he was a famous person.

Well, he's one of my friends that you have to say both of his names.

Got it.

Okay.

Okay.

We saw Color of Night and Jade in the theater.

Did you guys hold hands?

No.

We would go see weird movies together.

Speaking of weird, the Mallory Rubin award for did this movie need a better sex scene.

I think that's kind of the point.

I'm going to say no.

Yeah.

But you also could have talked me into a yes.

Just because of how you feel about Marcy?

No, not with Marcy.

I think the

punk club could have gotten weird.

Maybe not with Horst, but something could have been going on in the sculpture place.

The bouncer?

Bouncer.

Okay.

One more break, and then we'll do casting winners.

Mike and Alyssa are always trying to outdo each other.

When Alyssa got a small water bottle, Mike showed up with a four-liter junk.

When Mike started gardening, Alyssa started beekeeping.

Oh, come on.

They called a truce for their holiday and used Expedia Trip Planner to collaborate on all the details of their trip.

Once there, Mike still did more laps around the pool.

Whatever.

You were made to outdo your holidays.

We were made to help organize the competition.

Expedia, made to travel.

All right, Casting What Ifs.

This was originally supposed to be directed by Tim Burton.

And then Scorsese wanted to be involved, and he just stepped aside because he

said, I respectfully withdraw.

I will never stand in the way of Martin Scorsese wants to make a movie.

And that's it.

So

this is a double casting what ifs to me because Tim Burton doesn't make this movie.

And in this same year, he goes on to make Pee-Wee's Big Adventure, which is a huge movie for me personally and

would be an amazing, I'll step on the feature category, double feature with this movie about a man-child thrust into a world he doesn't understand, seeking something he can't get, and eventually finding salvation by going back home.

I don't know if that one's going to be on the rewatchables anytime soon.

Peewee's Big Adventure?

You might be hosting that one without me.

Wow.

You don't like Pee-Wee.

You were too old.

No, I was never a Pee-Wee Herman guy.

Some people are.

I'm not against it.

I don't judge.

I just never got it.

I mean, I was a kid when those movies came out.

So having the Saturday morning show, the Pee-Wee show was pretty big.

But Tim Burton, Tim Burton was an all-time genius to me and then just stopped being a genius completely in 2000.

Like everything he did between 1985 and 2000, I loved.

And then kind of never again.

I think his hair just got really heavy and it started impinging on his brain.

That's probably what it was.

That was my theory.

There's no real more casting with ifs except for they really had trouble casting the Linda Fiorentino part.

Okay.

And Griffin Dunn said, Linda intimidated the shit out of Marty and me.

She came in like she didn't give a damn whether or not she got the part and it made her seem like Veronica Lake.

Marty and I looked at each other and said, that's Kiki.

Because Griffin Dunn was one of the producers of this movie.

Do you want to talk about that really quickly?

Yeah.

Same in Amy Robinson, owned a company.

Yeah.

So, well, on Fiorentino, in that conversation with Friendly Witz, I mentioned, the only person he uses the adjective the great in front of is Linda Fiorentino.

And Scorsese very clearly is like the great Linda Fiorentino.

And then he's just like, yeah, Rosanna Arquette, Griffin Dunn, these other people.

Couldn't find a place in Goodfellas for her.

It's a good point.

It's a good point.

Now that, that couldn't have found a place in Gumar.

Giorgino for her.

Yeah, she could have been a Gumar.

Yeah.

So Griffin Dunn and Amy Robinson.

A.B Robinson was the female lead of Mean Streets in the 70s and had worked with Scorsese over the years.

And Griffin Dunne and Amy Robinson formed this production company, which I think is called Triple Play.

And they start producing movies.

They've produced actually a lot of really good movies over the years.

They make a Joan Micklin Silver movie in 1982 called Chili Scenes of Winter, very good movie.

Then in 1983, they make a movie with John Sales called Baby It's You.

Yeah.

Starring Roseanne Arquette.

And Vincent Spano.

Vince Espano and shot.

Should happen for him.

And shot by Michael Ballhouse.

Yeah.

And without that movie, we don't have After Hours either because they bring Michael Bauhaus to Scorsese.

I think Roseanne Arquette and their relationship.

They all go together.

And so they also produced one year later, Running on Empty, the Sydney LeMette movie with Judd Hirsch about the family of

1968 rebels on the run.

I don't remember Phoenix.

Good movie.

Yeah, pretty good movie.

So they are like...

really good producers in addition to Griffin being a kind of a movie star for a minute there.

Well, and he also had,

he was the son of Dominic Dunn.

He was.

His sister

tragically murdered.

Yeah, and then his sister was murdered.

And that led to Dominic Dunne throwing himself into true crime and led to the peak of him in the 90s, which I think was my number one,

a magazine is coming out.

I'm most excited to read this person moment.

Like 94, 95, him writing about OJ was like the apex mountain for me for, I can't wait until this.

Invanity Fair at that time.

Yeah, yeah.

He was like all that mattered.

He wrote amazing stories.

He was a fascinating character.

He really was.

And he had good books, too.

I liked all of his books.

He's a really, really great writer.

And his, his aunt and uncle were

John Gregory Dunn and Joan Diddian.

Yeah, Joan Diddy.

And he has, Griffin Dunn has kind of become like,

I don't know if he's an estate manager, but he's somebody who like helps shepherd a lot of the legacy of Diddy and

pops into some movies from time to time.

Yeah, he still acts for sure.

But while we're talking about movies, I just want to recommend to people who haven't read a book called The Studio that John Gregory Dunn wrote that is about how a movie studio operates.

It's one of the greatest.

It's not a novel.

It's a non-fiction book.

It's one of the greatest books about Hollywood ever written.

It's like a little underrated.

And since we're in the Dunn universe, give it a shout.

Best That Guy Award.

Is Griffin Dunn a that guy?

I don't think so.

He's Griffin.

I think Werewolf plus this, he makes him Griffin Dunn.

I agree.

You put his name on top of the poster.

You're kind of, you're good to go.

Is Horst that guy?

Will?

I don't think so.

I'll of it.

He says remember the Titans or No Way Out.

Yes.

Oh, No Way Out.

Yeah.

What was Hackman's name?

And he was like,

I don't remember at the end when he's about to kill himself.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Horst is kind of a warm-up for the crazy assistant to the Secretary of Defense in No Way Out.

Is he Secretary of Defense in that movie?

He is, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

He's also a classic, you didn't have any hair and now you have a full head of hair actor.

You You just enjoy those.

Yeah.

He's a very reliable.

He's an Armageddon or one of those.

Yeah, he's an Armageddon.

Yeah.

I mean, he's like constantly on TV.

Is he in the Taylor Sheridan universe now?

Will Patton?

I always like seeing him.

Yeah.

He's a great actor.

Really good actor.

I feel like he market corrected Terry Kinney a little bit.

They were head-to-head there for a while.

When's the Oz rewatch pod?

Whenever you want.

Emerald City?

Van is watching him right now.

Back to Emerald City.

My that guys were Dick Miller, Victor Argo, and Larry Block, who is the taxi guy.

Yeah, those, I mean, those are literally that guys.

Old school that guys.

Deion Waiters Award.

What a category.

Terry Gar, Catherine O'Hara, Linda Fiorentino,

Will Patton, Verna Bloom, and Cheechin Chong.

That's as good of a Deion Waiters as it's going to get.

I also had John Hurd and John Hurd.

Speaking of the Sopranos, legendary Sopranos player.

I have

Fiorentino winning.

Okay.

I'll roll with that.

But she's just out of control.

I don't know what she's doing in this movie, but it's captivating.

Yeah.

Another like, how do you make money person?

I guess she's selling those plaster of Paris bagels.

Yeah.

You got one of those?

I don't.

Recasting couch director City.

So let's have the Griffin Dunn conversation right here.

Okay.

Is it the best we could do in 1985 as a lead actor?

He produced the movie.

I get it.

Can I offer you Tom Hanks?

You can.

Can I offer you as Tom Hanks as the answer of Cruz or Hanks?

You can.

Hanks wins.

I accept.

Can I offer you 1985, right out of splash, about to make a bunch of weird movies before his 1990 and does League of Their Own in his career and becomes Tom Hanks?

I think this would have been a really good Tom Hanks movie.

It's perfect.

Because Tom Hanks isn't like really a horny guy necessarily.

So watching him try to awkwardly get laid, I think he could have been.

I think there's comic timing with him that would have been better.

I just think it's a better movie.

I don't think Tom Hanks is very cokey.

Did you see Punchline?

That's a good point.

That's one of the very few times where it feels like inside of Tom Hanks is chaos.

Can I offer you Michael Keaton?

Now, that is amazing.

That would be amazing.

Is he too horny or like too?

No, that would have been great.

Okay.

I think that's better.

Okay.

Michael Keaton, so coming off Night Shift, he's done

Gung Hone, Mr.

Mom.

He's about to do Johnny Dangerously, maybe.

No, Johnny Dangerously is right before because Griffin Dunn is in Johnny Dangerously.

They play brothers in that in Johnny Dangerously.

It's better with Michael Keaton.

It's better with either of them.

But yeah, Keaton's better.

I love Griffin Dunne in this movie.

There's not a lot about this movie I would change.

Like I said, it's a huge favorite of mine, but Michael Keaton does have that, like, I just blew a line energy.

Yeah.

And he would be really good.

You know what?

It could have been.

I'm not saying I would have liked this, but

would have made a little bit of sense is Steve Gutenberg.

Oh, wow.

You know, like he was like the right kind of actor.

How about Andrew McCarthy?

A little young.

Maybe four years later.

I actually had some,

if they made this movie in different years, who the perfect person was.

What about Judge Reinhold?

Judge Reinhold?

Well, so 1990, John Kusek.

Yeah.

He's clearly in.

Two years later, yeah.

1996, 97 range, Josh Hamilton.

100%.

Yeah.

Any of the Noah Baumback players would have been good.

04, 05 range.

I think we get Phil Hoffman.

Okay.

I mean, I have Phil Hoffman as as an answer to a category here.

I would have had him as Tom Shore, the bartender, in this movie.

2010-11 range, Jesse Eisenberg.

You made all these notes?

Yeah.

Wow.

Should we remake After Hours with Eisenberg?

Hater is somewhere in here.

I think this is a great Bill Hater movie.

I don't know exactly what point of his career.

He's got to be a little younger.

Bill must love this movie.

I'm sure.

But couldn't you say Hater in this movie?

Yeah, but he got started a little bit later, I feel like, as a single movie.

It's

14 range?

Sure.

And then I couldn't come up with now.

I was thinking Shalom maybe is probably too handsome.

Too much of a kind of movie that would be interesting if he made it.

You know who it should be?

Who?

Cooper Hoffman.

Cooper Hoffman.

Love that guy.

That's a good one.

Yeah.

He might still be too young.

I think he's like 22.

That's a good one, though.

How old was Griffin Dunn when he made this?

Probably in his like

early 20s, early 30s.

Yeah, okay.

Half-ass earned research.

Um, one of Scorsese's contributions involved the dialogue between Paul and the doorman at Club Berlin, which was inspired by Franz Kafka's Before the Law.

And Scorsese said the short story reflected his frustration toward the production of The Last Temptation of Christ.

Marty, put yourself in the movie.

Yeah.

That's why when you see Pauline Kahl saying, like, this is like impersonal or whatever, it's like it's all him.

Yeah.

Um,

Roseanne Arquette said a lot of the people involved in after hours were regulars at the new york bar and restaurant cafe central

they would gather there drink our eat and be merry a lot of artists griffin dunn and amy were there all the time teniro and christopher wackenroe was in bruce willis was the bartender

whoa

he has he has bartender energy Griffin Dunn said, we partied hard at Cafe Central, incredible place.

The biggest movie stars in the world hung out there.

Not one paparazzi knew about it.

Yeah.

Okay.

Cafe Central.

This is the John Hurd.

This is all from the oral history that I think Air Mail did, so you can read it.

Griffin Dunn and Amy were.

Are you an Airmail subscriber?

No.

Okay.

They wanted to cast John Hurd.

Marty said, I think he's incredibly talented, but I'm a little worried.

He's got a reckless reputation, which he did.

John was quite a carouser.

And then they convinced him to do it.

He's Sean Hurd getting it done in the 80s.

He's one of those guys who like,

is it really like that handsome?

Yeah, he's not that in big trying to play

handball with Josh Basket.

He's in Chili Scenes of Winter, the other Griffin Dunn Amy Robinson movie.

Obviously,

he's in home alone.

And I'm always happy to see him.

Me too.

But he just like looks like one of my dad's friends.

He had a good Sopranos run, and then I think he died.

He did.

He did.

He was a really, really good actor.

They had to, um,

they had to cheat with Soho because it was already getting gentrified when they were making the film.

So they had to do some Chinatown, Little Italy, and Tribeca to patch it.

I was wondering about that if it was already too late to make it seem like it was this dangerous place.

My last two things are just from research because I was fascinated on all the people that are in this movie.

Okay.

Griffin Dunn, best friend since childhood with Carrie Fisher.

Okay.

And then in the documentary Bright Lights,

the the two of them reminisced about when he took her virginity because she considered it a burden.

And as an act of friendship in London in the early 70s, they decided to have sex so she wouldn't be a virgin anymore.

That's on the internet.

That's

I didn't expect to have a reaction.

That must have been very exciting for him.

Linda Fiorentino had a relationship with Anthony Pellicano

in the period leading to his 2008 trial and conviction.

Wait, what happened?

You didn't know about the McTiernan thing?

Did this come up in 2020?

I just forgot?

Yeah, okay.

Yeah, I was like, what the hell, man?

Pelocano is being investigated.

Linda Fiorentino started dating former FBI agent Mark Rossini.

Law enforcement agents said this was her attempt to assist Pel Cano with information.

Oh, my God.

Fiorentino said, told Rossini as they were getting involved, she was researching a screenplay based on Pelocano's case.

He then gave her searches of government computers for information

to Friorentino, who then gave the files to Pelicano's lawyer in a failed effort to help him avoid going to jail for 15 years.

And then Rossini had to plead guilty as well.

So she was in two relationships with two guys who went to jail.

That might be part of the reason she's not acting like that.

I did not know this.

I don't.

Just guessing.

That is shocking.

Yeah.

Apex Mountain.

Wait.

She dated an FBI agent to get things from him to help her.

That boyfriend who was under investigation by the NBA.

That's a movie.

That's

your girl, Linda.

I feel like she could have gone three episodes with Tony Soprano.

I feel like they could have figured it out.

I think so, too.

Apex Mountain, Griffin Dunn, I'm going to say yes.

Yes, without question.

Roseanne Arcade, 100%, 1985.

Yes.

Without question.

Hard cap.

All caps.

Yes.

Yes.

Linda Fiorentino,

Last Seduction, 1994, which she should have gotten nominated for an Oscar, but they had released it on HBO first.

She's incredible in The Last Seduction, but probably Men in Black.

I mean, Men in Black was a massive success, bigger than any other movie she'd ever been a part of.

And she was the star.

I mean, it made the case for Last Seduction.

Yes.

Do you know this whole thing about how she should have won the Oscar that year?

I feel like we've talked about it before, too.

sell it, they couldn't get the movie funded to be in theaters, so they sold it to HBO.

Right, it ran on HBO for a couple weeks, and then the movie gained steam.

And they did this whole, they started showing, and they basically did the movie red carpet thing with it.

And she started winning all these awards.

Oh, but it was ruled in critics' choice, whatever.

But they were like, it can't.

It was on TV first.

You're not eligible.

And that was the year Jessica Lang won for Blue Sky, which had been made four years earlier.

And then, like, that was Jodi Foster, Nell.

But it's just like a, it's, it's like a particularly awful best actress category.

Marina Richardson and Tom and Viv, Winona Ryder and Little Women, and show some respect to Susan Sarandon and the client, my beloved Reggie Love.

That's weird.

That's interesting.

She went

wins.

So if she

went in 1994,

she's a massive star.

This is just an extraordinary amount of time spent on Linda Fiorentino in this space.

Thank you.

I i did a lot of uh i can't a lot of research uh henry miller apex mountain probably not i would say no maybe the publication of tropic of cancer yeah john heard

i think home alone

a lot i think it was cutter's way was he was leading with somebody no thank you for bringing that up that movie is amazing

he plays a vietnam vet with an eye patch yeah that's in a wheelchair and he is crazy in that movie thank you for bringing that up cheechin chong probably not it's probably somewhere late 70s Poppin' smoke for sure.

Cheech and chong, hard to explain all these years later.

You know, because I think they just on YouTube, though.

Yeah,

you mean like how they hit?

No, just like it's just very specific to an era that now they would just be guys, they'd be huge influencers.

They'd probably have a billion-dollar empire.

It'd be like Chee Chin Chong just did a $1 million, $1 billion deal with Amazon.

Yeah, they were kind of the Mr.

Beast of their time.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Late night New York City movies.

I have a whole list.

This is the best one.

So

I think the Warriors is superior because it covers more ground.

It captures more of the city.

You get more of the city.

Yeah.

So it's fair.

The Warriors would be number one.

Coney Island.

You're all over the place.

This is very close behind, but in addition to that, I think taxi driver is certainly in the conversation.

25th hour.

Saturday Night Fever.

It's 25th Hour a late night New York City movie.

They're in a club when they're in the club for like 40 minutes.

Yeah, you're right.

Cruising.

And they're in the diner when Barry Pepper and Hoffman go out to the diner.

Ghostbusters?

Hmm.

Right?

I mean, the whole third act is at night.

American Psycho cruising?

Well,

that's right.

For sure.

American Psycho is a good one.

I mean, Good Time and Uncut Gems.

Yeah.

Uncut Gems, I mean, could a movie owe more of a debt to After Hours than Uncut Gems?

I was trying to think of the movies that probably were the most influenced by it, and it's a long list.

One of the ones I think is Go.

Oh, definitely.

Where they're just like, let's make late 90s go and just put a bunch of weird actors with weird cameos.

And it's basically they should have paid royalties to Super Sizzy.

Brightlight's Big City is a big one from this era, too.

Yeah.

Which I feel like people don't talk about that anymore.

And then just like every Lumet film, yeah, except for Dog Day Afternoon because it only takes place during the day.

Good list.

Thank you.

Apex Mountain for Plaster?

Sure.

Yes.

The answer is yes.

Terry Guard, it's it's no, because I think it's probably Tootsie era, but we're still

nominated for Tootsie era.

Still on the Mountain.

Yep.

And then I.

I don't know how Mom and Dad Save the World with John Lovitz and Terry Garr.

I think that she was off the mountain at that point.

Soho.

No.

What is Apex Mountain for Soho?

It's something last 15 years.

Basquiat painting masterpieces five years earlier?

That's pretty good.

Okay.

Scorsese or Spielberg?

Yes.

I love when

we have that organically.

Here's the thing.

Steve doesn't have the juice to get into this energy.

He could never get to this place.

He wouldn't know how to direct Linda Fiorentino.

He definitely did not.

He had no idea.

This is our eighth Scorsese rewatchable.

I was going to ask you that.

How many is Steve?

He's one back.

Spielberg has had how many?

I'm going to say seven.

Hold on.

I can find that.

Jaws, closing counters, E.T., E.T., E.T.,

Minority Report.

Oh, Spielberg's had nine.

Nine.

So, Michael Mann, Tony Scott, Spielberg, all at nine.

Scorsese at eight.

Fincher at seven.

That's our top.

That's our top five.

Are you done with Fincher?

No.

God, no.

Would you ever do Girl with a Dragon tattoo?

I don't like that movie.

Okay.

Do you like it?

It's been one of the biggest growers in my life in the world.

Do I need to watch it?

Yeah, I think it's like incredible, and I didn't realize it at the time.

I think I might not like it for the wrong reasons because I don't like, I really liked Rudy Mara and I think that the movie just made, sent her career in a weird direction and I want to redo it.

I think she's an unusual person.

Maybe.

Well it's good to see Kate in friendship though.

Great to see her working in a good movie.

As you know, she matters to me.

Yeah.

Do you like friendship?

What'd you make of that?

I don't think we've ever talked Tim Robinson.

I really liked it.

My daughter absolutely loved it.

Oh, great.

Yeah,

and my wife was uncomfortable and complaining about it most of the time, but still liked it.

Not surprising.

Um, it's it's good.

It is really funny.

It's really good.

I, I, I thought people got a little carried away with how good it was, but I thought it was really good.

I didn't think it was the funniest movie of the last 15 years, but I was happy to have a comedy with Tim Robinson in movie theaters.

Yeah,

what role would Philip Seymour Hoffman have played?

So you said the bartender

could talk me into the lead at certain points in his career.

Okay.

picanets

not sure why he flips on marcy and makes her cry never understood that i just gets mad and all i i just don't get it it's a weird

so i

think it's because he realizes that he doesn't he's afraid of sleeping with a burn victim and is trying to get out of there oh so it's a so yeah yeah

Couldn't he walk to another subway station?

And then

why did Marcy actually kill herself?

Was a weird one.

The thing about that.

It's the weirdest part of this movie.

I wrote down what was wrong with Marcy.

The thing I do think is clever is that she overdoses on Second All, which is what Judy Garland overdosed on.

Oh.

And she, of course, was the star of the Wizard of Oz.

And so there's meant to be some symmetry there.

You have any other picanets we covered a lot?

No, the biggest one was just, why don't you just walk home?

Sequel, prequel, prestige TV, all blackcast are untouchable.

There's a prestige TV possibility where each each episode is almost like 24.

It's after hours, but it's 24 and it's 10 hours and one episode for each hour.

It's not against it.

Yeah.

It's ambitious.

Okay, but would it be Kiefer Sutherland?

What do you mean?

Be his son.

Is this movie better with Wayne Jenkins, Danny Treyo, Dorisberg, Sam Jackson, Nell, Byron Mayo, Barney Cousins, Tony Romo, Harley Mays, Chris Collinsworth, Daniel Plainview, Long Legs, or Wilfred Brimley, and the firm?

Honestly, Sam Jackson being in this movie would have been great.

Interesting.

I think this movie is a Sam Jackson short.

Well, who would he be?

Well, not holding him.

I think he's in the bar and he's just flipping out on somebody.

Okay.

But just two minutes of Sam Jackson, 80s, crazy Sam Jackson.

They speak English and what?

Right.

Just him going.

Him just being Sam Jackson.

Just bringing crazy energy.

Maybe he's in the vigilante mob.

I'd love to have Jules just in this movie, Jules Winfield.

That would be great.

Just one Oscar who gets it.

I'm going with the editing.

And our girl Thelma Schoonmaker.

Good.

Mocker Maker?

Maker?

Yeah.

Thelma Schoonmaker.

You know, we haven't mentioned that.

Michael Powell is a pretty important person in this movie, legendary British filmmaker who had been kind of cast out of filmmaking in the 70s and 80s,

but became a huge mentor to Scorsese at this time and married Thelma Schoonmaker right before this movie, I think, or maybe right after.

And he was one of the people who helped him figure out the ending, helped him determine the tone.

And

if you haven't seen any Michael Powell movies, Black Narcissus, Life and Death of Colonel Blimp, Matter of Life and Death, like some of the greatest British films ever made.

But he similarly experienced this kind of like limbo, this exile that Scorsese felt.

So they like had a real kinship together.

And also, clearly, Thelma and Powell, like

they helped Scorsese a lot.

Probably unanswerable questions.

You have any?

Because I have

two.

I think I was just trying to understand what

this guy's job is.

Like, I know he's a word processor, but what does that mean?

I don't think we're supposed to know.

Okay.

I think it's like ambiguous, weird office jobs.

So an unanswerable question.

Yeah.

I have two.

The timeline of this movie.

What time does he land back in front of his office?

What time is it?

Here's what we know.

He leaves this house at 11.30.

He arrives at Marcy's around 12.15.

At 1.35 in the morning, Marcy says she needs to take a shower.

Then we see a clock when he's leaving Terry Garr's place at 4.10.

When he goes to the diner, you can see the clock.

Okay.

So it's 4.10.

How many hours after that happened?

Like three?

And it's as they're driving the van, the sun's coming up, but we don't know what time of year it is.

So it's probably 6.30 range.

So has he landed his office at 7?

The number one giveaway is that someone is vacuuming in the office when he gets there.

6.30 in the morning?

So what is that shift to clean?

First of all, who cleans the office in the morning?

Shouldn't it be at night when you clean the office?

After that?

After finishing it?

Because you can see when Cheech and Chang are driving, you can see the sun's coming up or

right before those gates.

6.30 range.

I didn't mention him exiting those gates.

It's one of my great shot warrants too.

So I'm going to say he gets there.

This is seven hours round trip.

Okay.

Seven hours of it.

He's there at 6.30.

Shows up at Marcy's at 12.15 and maybe he's back in the office at 7.15,

not having slept.

I think you answered the unanswerable question.

I got another one.

It's not unanswerable, though.

Did he finish reading Tropic of Cancer?

In jail.

Because that was my other unanswerable question.

Does he just get arrested four hours later?

They could find him.

This guy came.

His name was Paul Hackett.

And he left and he ran away from the thing.

And now Marcy's dead and it was his fault.

They definitely could find him.

And he might have shot somebody too.

He didn't do anything wrong.

I think he's at least on trial.

Dominic Dunn's covering it.

What piece of memorability would you want or not want from this movie?

The Mr.

Softy truck would be pretty cool.

I don't know where you put it.

Yeah.

I don't really have a $20 plaster bill.

Yeah,

I think the plaster Paris bagel is probably my code.

That's a good one.

Coachfinst.org, best life lesson.

Nothing good happens after 2 a.m.

Perfect.

Perfect.

Don't chase the night.

Best double feature choice.

So you have, what did you have?

Well, you had Pee Wee.

I have a bunch.

Goodfellas is in the mix.

Pee Wee

into the night.

The John Laney.

So that was my choice.

Okay.

I'll let you talk about it.

Which is weirdly, like, they think it's a rip-off of, but they're making them at the same time.

Yeah, I don't think it's a rip-off.

I don't even know which one came out first.

LA.

It's basically LA.

LA after hours.

Ends up in Malibu.

Uncut Gems.

Yeah.

Another nighttime Scorsese movie, Bringing Out the Dead, which is a little underrated.

Nick Cage as an ambulance driver.

Game Night

and The Purge.

The Purge.

That's a good one.

I would go for Into the Night.

Okay.

I think it'd be funny to see New York, LA, same kind of version of energy.

I like that.

And then who won the movie?

Scorsese.

Yeah, man.

I mean,

he was cooked.

He was done for.

And then I think this movie just getting made and acknowledged was enough to kind of start to get him back on track.

It got his juices going again, which is all that really matters.

You like this movie more or less than Color of Money?

Which comes right after this.

I like Color of Money a little more.

Yeah.

I think that movie is amazing.

They're both five stars.

Yeah.

We already did that one.

This one, I think, as I said, it's...

You don't want to recolor?

It's less of a fun hang, but I almost admire it more than Color Money

because I can't believe it worked.

It's just a hinge movie for him.

You know, he needs it to go forward, to go through the next door.

That's it for New York City Month.

What was your biggest disappointment that we didn't do in New York City?

I'm waiting on Dog Day Afternoon.

I want to do it.

I think we could do it.

I think we could do a great episode.

I think we could do a mega episode about Dog Day.

We should do it.

It's a good one.

Which one were you the most jealous of that you weren't on out of the other four?

Probably not After Justice?

No, didn't even.

I don't know if I've even seen that film.

DH with a V is a big one for me.

I love that movie.

I know.

We don't have four seats anymore.

We would have to do a different studio.

If only we worked at a massive corporation that could fund the incredible studios.

We're changing it right now.

We're trying to fix it.

Probably Die Hard with a Vengeance, just because I was like a teenager when that movie came out and I just thought it was cracked.

I think there's like a really good case for it as better than the original Die Hard.

Wow.

Yeah.

Which I know is, I know you guys talked about it a little bit, but

that's a great one.

And then, I don't know, what was the other one?

You did another big one, too.

Working girl.

Oh, well, I should not have been on that.

I'm glad you, I'm, I think you, you did a great service.

So, Out for Justice One.

Yep.

Out for Justice One.

Which, which New York movie did we not do other than Dog Day Afternoon that you think we should have done?

Because King of Comedy was in the finals.

So I was thinking about doing one for you.

We never did that.

No.

That movie makes me uneasy and uncomfortable and i don't know if it's a re-watchable um because sandra bernhardt is so frightening in that movie that it's almost like not

not fun but i know it is it's just it's so crazy so smart about

where we are now and how people think about celebrity it is so which is why we're gonna have to do it so smart um i guess i don't really it is that that is a new york movie and it is very much a movie about like a new york talk show host star but for whatever reason i don't associate that as much with new york as like you know your taxi drivers and your other Scorsese classics.

I'm trying to think of best New York movies of all time.

We've done a bunch of them, like, we did when Harry met Sally and Cruising and the Warriors, and we've done like a shitload of them.

You know, what would be a really good one?

I don't know if you have a big relationship to this movie, but Frances Ha,

it's on the list.

Frances Ha is a movie that

when I was living in New York, and it is, that is the closest.

Like, I didn't live through After Hours, but what she is doing in that movie, plus Bomback being such a special filmmaker for us, it just felt like my life in a very specific way.

So that would be a really good one.

Did Jack Sanders like After Hours?

Oh, I think he loved it, right, Jack?

I think this movie is the reason this show exists.

Not the specific movie, but the idea.

For me, Bill, this is a fun hang.

My girlfriend and I were dying laughing the entire time.

For me, it's a five-star masterpiece.

Wow.

And this is a very specific thought, but I would say Scorsese,

better than any other director, has the best image-making instincts.

His intentionality comes through so clearly when he's whipping the camera, when he's panning, when he's telling you something's supposed to be scary, something's supposed to be serious.

I think it's better than any other director.

I absolutely loved it.

Wow.

You've really just trained him.

What do you mean?

You've groomed him.

He came to the right place.

That's what happened.

No, he really did.

He was born for it.

I think his movies have the best pace.

He's figured out pace better than any other director that I can think of.

He doesn't have a ton of movies that are 94 minutes, too.

That's the other thing, is this movie is tight.

Yeah, it's a shame.

Craig's away.

I think Craig's on his honeymoon.

He's somewhere.

Didn't he get married two years ago?

Maybe he's just on a vacation.

Would it be okay if I went on my honeymoon tomorrow, Bill?

He's on a vacation.

But when Craig comes back, we need his take on a couple of these.

I think he would like this a lot if he has.

94 Minutes, he just immediately would have been in on that.

All right.

Well, we're coming back next week.

We'll have some sort of something.

When is July 4th?

July 4th is on a Friday this year, right?

Next Friday.

Got to tape it next week.

All right.

That's it.

That's it for New York City Month.

I don't know what's coming next week.

It's July 4th.

We'll see.

See, hopefully, Jalen Brown doesn't get traded.

Thanks to Jack Sanders.

Thanks to Ronic as well.

And we'll see you next week.