Mark Manson: The Psychological Skills To Master For Fulfilling Relationships, Inner Peace & Abundance

I have a brand new book called Make Money Easy. And if you're looking to create more financial freedom in your life, you want abundance in your life, and you want to stop making money hard in your life, but you want to make it easier, you want to make it flow, you want to feel abundant, then make sure to go to makemoneyeasybook.com right now and get yourself a copy.
I really think this is going to help you transform your relationship with money this moment moving forward. We have some big guests and content coming up.
Make sure you're following and stay tuned to this episode on the School of Greatness. It's unrealistic to expect that you're going to connect or see eye to eye with every single person that you've ever been.
You actually don't want everybody to be your friend because then you don't really stand for anything, right? A prolific author and content creator, he wrote the infamous book. The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F***, which many consider to be the generation-defining self-help book.
Sold over 10 million copies. Subtle Art of Not Giving up.
I'm really trying not to say the word. Mark Manson! There's a lot of statistics around kids cutting off their parents, and it really makes me uncomfortable because you can have really terrible parents, but you can manage that relationship and manage your exposure to them in a way that you don't have to eliminate them from your life permanently.
You create a boundary. Exactly.
I've got a whole rant about manifestation. Uh-huh.
Which... My audience loves manifestation.
I know they do. It's going to trigger everyone.
I know they do. Trigger warning.
Mark's coming in on the manifestation. Let's hear it.
Spring is all about fresh starts, and it's starting now with savings at The Home Depot. Whether you're kicking off a new project or giving your outdoor space a much-needed refresh, the right tools make all the difference.
Start with a clean slate using the Ryobi cordless pressure washer and whisper blower, and fall in love with your yard all over again with fresh plants and greenery. At the Home Depot, you can start saving early on everything you need to make the season shine.
Start your spring with savings at The Home Depot, now through April 2nd. This podcast is sponsored by Northwestern Mutual.
Everyone wants to feel good about their finances, right? Well, that's why I've had life insurance with Northwestern Mutual for years. Their financial professionals ask the right questions, truly listen, and help uncover opportunities most people miss.
I've seen it firsthand. Northwestern Mutual has been a part of my journey from the very beginning, providing the security and peace of mind I need as a human and an entrepreneur.
Find a better way to money at nm.com. The Northwestern Mutual Life Insurance Company, Milwaukee, Wisconsin.
Paid testimonial by a Northwestern Mutual policy owner. Every step, every mile, every cause.
At the Boston Marathon presented by Bank of America, thousands of athletes are running for more than time. Some for a cure, others for their community, but all of them for a cause that matters.
Join Bank of America in supporting fundraising athletes. Find a runner, help a cause, and give if you can at bofa.com slash help a cause.
What would you like the power to do? Bank of America. References to charitable organizations are not an endorsement by Bank of America Corporation.
Copyright 2025. Welcome back, everyone, to the School of Greatness.
Very excited about our guest. We have my friend Mark Manson in the house, who's been on the Newer Times bestseller list for, I think, six years now.
Is that right? About six years off and on, 360 weeks? Somewhere around there. If you add everything together, it's like 330, 340 weeks.
Oh, okay. I gave you that extra few weeks.

Okay.

But it's amazing what you've created.

Number one, your time bestseller multiple times.

And I love seeing your journey.

Yeah.

What were you going to say?

I was going to say, this is my fourth time on the show.

Fourth time.

Let's go, baby.

Has anybody been on more?

Can I be the greatest school of greatness guest?

I've had a guest on, I think, over 10 times, actually,

who is a coach that has come on and coached a bunch of times.

But as an individual kind of guest like this,

I think three might be the max.

I'm trying to think.

I've moved in the second.

I think maybe three times.

Maybe four is kind of like only a few people.

All right.

So that's good. Very fun.
It's good good to be back then. We're making it happen.
You've been diving in. You've had a lot of experience on a lot of different topics over 15 years.
Yeah. Since you've been creating content.
But for the last few years, you really dove into creating more psychologically, like deeper psychological videos on your YouTube, which I think are really fascinating around human behavior and kind of these psychological skills that we can overcome or we can master to help us create deeper relationships, to help us create healthier lives, more inner peace and more abundance. So I wanted to ask you about in the content you've been making,

the research you've been doing, because you're really great at researching and getting the best

information. What are a few of the psychological skills that humans should master if they want

more peace and abundance in their life? I'd say the first one, first and foremost,

is self-awareness. Ultimately, if you're not aware of a problem in your life or a tendency

see you the time. It's a very tricky thing.
It's a very slippery thing. Sometimes the more you try to grasp it, the more it slips out of your grasp because we're very good at tricking and deluding ourselves you know it's everybody kind of thinks like well i know what's going on in my life like i i know why i did that i know why i'm thinking this way and it's it's actually the the process of developing self-awareness is is in some ways a it should be an uncomfortable process it should be it should involve questioning your own assumptions questioning your motivations like Like, if you say you just had an argument with your partner, obviously you think you're right.
Obviously you think you know what you're doing. But being able to step back and say, but what if I don't? What if I'm actually wrong? What if they're actually right? What would that mean? What would that suggest about me? What would that suggest about my view of the world? And actually being able to sit with

that for a certain amount of time, that is a skill. That is something that you practice and

develop over a long period of time. And like most skills, when you're bad at it, it's not fun.

Yeah.

So most people avoid it.

For probably every relationship I was in until this one, I used to think I was right in a lot

I'm going to go most people avoid it. For probably every relationship I was in until this one, I used to think I was right in a lot of things.
And maybe I was in some of it, but I'm sure that I wasn't a lot of the time. Where in your relationship have you had to question your own assumptions of being right about something? where you had to say, I need to have my own medicine and step into self-awareness and realize, oh, maybe actually she's right? Yeah.
Where has that been in your relationship that you've seen? Well, the biggest thing, the first thing that comes to mind for me, the biggest thing for me is I historically was very avoidant in my relationships. Like I was the guy who would find exit plans to every intimate relationship.
When it's uncomfortable. Exactly.
And well, every time things got too intimate, I would kind of freak out and like find an excuse to slip out or sabotage things. And when I was younger, I basically torpedoed a bunch of good relationships for no good reason.
And at the time when I was doing it, I thought, you know, like everybody, I thought I was justified and rational and being reasonable and everything. But as the years went on, I realized when I looked back, I was like, yeah, that was kind of selfish.
That was, you know, that was a little bit unjustified. That was a little bit irrational.
I was definitely being triggered. Some baggage was being triggered.
And so when I met my wife, I kind of went into it with more self-awareness around this. I was like, okay, clearly I'm an avoidant attachment type.
I clearly get triggered around intimacy and have irrational reactions and want to escape and want to run away. And I made a deal with myself.
As I said, look, you can always break up with her. That's always on the table.
You're never trapped. But you're only allowed to break up with her for a good reason.
It can never be over something stupid. It can never be over a dumb fight you started over who loaded the dishwasher wrong.
It's always got to be a real reason, like a values difference or a communication problem or a breach of trust or something. It can never be over something really dumb because that's what I had done consistently throughout my relationship.
Or just because you're afraid or something. Totally.
Totally. Which I think people don't realize like, I mean, avoidance in particular, it's when you, it's a very irrational reaction and it happens when you're not aware of it.
It happens unconsciously. It's almost like a knee jerk type thing.
You get too close to somebody. It gets a little bit too intimate.
You feel vulnerable. That freaks you out.
And so your mind starts tricking you and it starts convincing you things that aren't true, right? It's like, oh, she's probably lying to you or, you know, oh, she never actually liked you that much. She's just doing this because she wants something from you.
You know, it starts feeding all these stories and narratives in your brain that are completely made up, but, and they're completely based in your trauma response. But if you're not aware of that pattern within yourself, you just, you assume it's assume it's right and then you start a dumb fight over something completely inconsequential and you ruin a good relationship.
Right. And so you've been married how long now? 10 plus years? Eight years.
Eight years. What are the psychological skills or emotional skills that you have now learned or improved upon eight years later that you didn't have at the beginning of the marriage that has helped you become closer, that has helped you feel more harmonious in the marriage, giving you more freedom, whatever it might be within the marriage? It's a really good question.
I think one of the biggest things is simply, I don't know if the right word is acceptance or non-judgment, but it's, I guess the best way I'd describe it is not feeling compelled to change the other person. Gosh, that's so.
Did you try to change her early on? A little bit. A little bit.
Yeah, for sure. And she probably tried to change me a little bit.
Really? I just feel like when I look at the trends, at this point, my wife and I, we've been together. It will be 13 years next month that we've been together.
And when I look at the different kind of trajectories in the relationship over that time, definitely one of the biggest ones is it feels like every year that goes by, the more we just kind of live and let live. Like we just, you love who's in front of you.
You don't love who they might be, who they could be, who you wish they could be. You love who's in front of you, right? And that's, ultimately that's the choice you have to make.
And if you choose not to, if you choose to love some imagined version of your partner,

some potential version of your partner, I just think you're setting yourself up for a lot of pain.

And if someone doesn't learn the skill of self-awareness,

what is available on the other side if they don't learn that skill you're you basically become a slave to your unconscious right you've got all these patterns you know harville hendrix calls them love maps um but you have all these patterns that were imprinted on you as a child and if you're like most people like everybody you, your parents weren't perfect. So your parents had baggage and issues and they kind of imprinted some of that baggage and issues on you.
And so if you never develop any awareness around yourself, you're essentially a slave to that baggage. You're always just going to assume that any impulse or emotion that arises is true without questioning it, without wondering if you're being irrational or not.
Maybe you're being unfair. Maybe you're being selfish.
These are all human things. We all do them.
And yeah. If someone feels like, but I know I'm right and they're're wrong, and I know this is correct, and this is not true, in whatever dynamic, relationship dynamic, what is something that someone could ask themself or some steps they could take to say, am I truly being self-aware or am I just being a jerk? What are those skills or steps to creating self-awareness?

So I think there are some thought exercises you could go through and you could do this in a journal. You could do this with a therapist.
You could do it with a friend. I think the first one is imagine, take your relationship situation and imagine it's two other people.
And switch around who the people are. Switch around the genders.
around the age, the, you know, who the people are, switch around the genders, switch around the age, who the people are, and see if the dynamics, see if it still feels true to you. Ask yourself, if my best friend's partner was doing the thing to them that I'm doing to my partner, how would I feel about it? And I think that can be very illuminating.

That's interesting. So kind of remove yourself from the scenario and look at it from a different perspective, an unbiased perspective, I guess, of like you being in the situation.
Totally. That's interesting.
Okay. So that's one thing to creating self-awareness.
Is there another... Ask people close to you.
Yeah. Feedback.
And this is the tricky thing is that a lot of people don't have people around themselves that will give them honest feedback. Interesting.
So it's... And if you're in the wrong relationship intimately, your partner might be saying, you're bad at this and bad at this.
They may be not giving you the best feedback too, depending if they don't have your best interest in mind. Right.
They have their interest in mind and not yours. Well, and that just made me think of a good point too, is that generally people who are in bad relationships, bad romantic relationships, probably also have bad relationships with friends, with family.
Like they're just bad at relationships in general, right? So finding somebody who is capable of giving you honest, critical feedback, saying like, hey, man, I think you're in the wrong on this one. Like, I think she's got a point.
You know, you want to find somebody in your life who is capable of saying that to you and then ask them for their honest opinion. And, you know, it's like a doctor, right? Like, you want to get multiple.
If it's a serious issue, you want to go get multiple opinions. Yes.
You know what's interesting about feedback is I felt like as an athlete growing up, I was really good at receiving coaching and feedback when it was around sports. Yeah.
And then in my 20s, and I got into the real world, I didn't like feedback. In my business and intimate relationships and friends, I didn't like it because it felt like it was critical of me as a person rather than me as a skillset in a sport.
And I didn't take things personally when a coach was like, you dropped the ball, here's what you need to do. I was like, okay, tell me more.
How do we get better at this skill? But when I would get feedback in my 20s from whatever girlfriends or friends or whatever business people, it was like, I took it so personally. It was like, I'm bad and wrong because I'm getting feedback.
And I didn't know how to do it. I would push people away.
I was like, defend myself every time I got feedback. And I realized that really hurt me from personally growing and developing skills.
And it wasn't until I was about 30 where I went to a workshop where it was like a whole day was around people giving you feedback in the workshop. Like literally they would circle around you and they'd say, you show up to me as this.
You show up to me as a jerk. You show up to me as entitled, you show up to me as whatever.
And the whole thing was like receiving the feedback and say, give me more feedback. Give me more.
I, you know, give me more, tell me more. And everyone being like, this was after like days of people getting to experience you.
Even if you were like the best person there, what's the feedback you can give them? And that, I don't know if it was like the healthiest thing, but it was definitely helpful for me because I was so against getting feedback about me. And it was the greatest gift that I got in my early thirties because I think I just would have been right and wrong, good and bad, and just unable to receive feedback at any moment.
I'd have been judgmental, but you know, all these. We all take supplements, or at least we know we should, but why are so many supplement companies charging ridiculous prices for products that really aren't that special? It's frustrating and frankly unacceptable.
Live Good is a brand that believes everyone deserves access to high quality supplements without the insane markups. They offer premium products formulated by an industry-leading team of natural health experts at the lowest prices anywhere.
Live Good also has collagen, weight loss products, protein powder, skin care products, and more. All high-quality products at prices people can actually afford.
And I've been trying their organic super greens and loving it. It helps fill in the gaps when I'm not eating enough fruits and veggies and keeps up my energy.
I just mix a scoop into my smoothie or water every day and it's been super easy to add my routine and I feel great. Ready to start saving? Just go to livegood.com slash greatness to save 10% on your first order.
That's livegood.com slash greatness. Say you've always wanted to have a backyard oasis.
Here's the thing. If you get smart with your money, you can do things like that.
With Empower, you can start making the most out of your money so you can go out and live a little. Isn't that why we work so hard? To have some fun with our money? Like treating yourself to something special or spontaneously doing something extra for a loved one.
So use Empower and get good at money so you can be a little bad. Join their 19 million customers today at Empower.com.
Not an Empower client, paid or sponsored. You all know what speed dating is, right? Well, if you're the owner of a growing business, what if there was a feature like speed dating only for hiring? In other words, you can meet several interested qualified candidates at once, all at a designated time.
Well, good news. There is.
It's Zip Intro from Zip Recruiter. You can post your job today and start talking to qualified candidates tomorrow.
You simply pick a time and Zip Intro does all the work of finding and scheduling qualified candidates for you. Then you can choose who you want to talk to and meet with great people as soon as the next day.
It's so easy. For me, building the right team has been one of the most important steps in growing my business.
It's not just about skills. It's about finding people who truly fit.
So I am so grateful that I have Zip Recruiter's help with growing my team. Enjoy the benefits of speed hiring with new Zip Intro.
Only from ZipRecruiter. Rated number one hiring site based on G2.
Try Zip Intro for free at ZipRecruiter.com slash greatness. Again, that's ZipRecruiter.com slash greatness.
Zip Intro. Post jobs today.
Talk to qualified candidates tomorrow. It's scary, man.
Feedback is scary. Very hard.
Right? Like it's, you feel, it's hard not to take it personally. It's hard to, and I think it's because sometimes people, there are people in the world who their feedback is critical and judgmental, right? It's like they're not trying to help you.
They're trying to cut you down. Hurt you, yeah.
Yeah, and it's so finding people who can give you free feedback, but they're giving it for your own benefit is really good. You also bring up something that's super interesting about all of this, which is these emotional skills, they're very domain-specific.
Like I meet people all the time who are emotional geniuses in their professional work life. And then they go home and in front of their kids, they just melt down and can't handle anything.
And then there are other people who are the complete opposite. They're just amazing family members and friends.
And then they go to work and they just get walked over by everybody. Isn't that interesting? Yeah.
Or at work, they're like the boss, but then they come home and they're like a baby or whatever it is. Totally.
But in my sports experience, I was like, give me the best coach who can give me feedback all day long. I was like, tell me what to do.
How can I get better? How can I improve? But in my personal life, I took it as criticism. I took it as I'm not good enough as a person.
And I took it as an offense. And I know now it's because I was very wounded and I was very insecure and I was afraid of people not thinking I was good enough or something like that.
But it's interesting that I was able to do it in one domain, but in the other, it was the hardest thing to overcome, getting feedback. It sounds like you had a...
I mean, obviously you were an athlete. You had a lot of confidence in the sports domain, right? So's like, even if a coach, I imagine there were plenty of coaches that chewed you out and told you you screwed up, you know? And it's like, but you knew you're like, I'm good at this.
Yes. Like I'm a good athlete, you know, and I'm going to get better.
Whereas if you've never, if you've never had that evidence accumulate in your personal life, that you're a good person, that people love you,

that people want to be friends with you, then yeah, that feedback is scary. And I think growing up, I didn't really have any friends and I felt like...
I didn't feel like I had anyone who had my best interests. Besides like, you know, parents or siblings or whatever, but I was the youngest and they were always kind of off with their friends.
So I always felt like I'm left behind. At least that was the story I told myself.
Whether it was actually true is what I felt, my interpretation. It's funny, early in my career, so I struggled a lot with social anxiety when I was younger.
And it's funny because for the people who've read my writing for a long time, it's pretty incendiary, a little controversial. It definitely pokes at people's buttons to get a pretty angry response sometimes.
And early in my career, I kind of relished that. That's kind of how I made a name for myself is I would, I would like, I would poke people's buttons and kill sacred cows and say controversial things and try to get a lot of attention that way.
And it's funny because I've talked to, I've spoken to so many writers and aspiring writers who were terrified of publishing something and making people upset. And it never bothered me.
Why didn't it bother you? I don't know. I was just like, I'm right, whatever.
And did you do that in social settings or only written settings? No. So this is the whole point is like, I would write an article that I knew very well.
I'm like, this is going to piss off thousands of people. I'm going to wake up tomorrow.
I'm going to have 200 angry emails in my inbox, but it's fine because I think it's worth writing it. And I would do it.
And then I would go to a party that night and I'd be nervous to talk to the girl next to me because I'm like, well, what if she doesn't like me? Really what is what is that about you know what do you think that was in about you where you had the confidence or the courage to do something i guess online but in person you struggle what do you think that i the the only thing i can come back to is it is it's like that evidence thing right like i in my writing, I, I'm very aware that my writing, uh, is a better portrayal of me and my ideas than I guess my physical form is. Interesting.
Cause you could also package your thoughts and make something compelling and you'd get results that way. So you knew what to do there.
I think I'm just better in writing than in person. Uh, and, and, but also it's like, I had, I had to accumulated a lot of evidence over many, many years that when I really put thought into something, whether it's blogging or posting on forums or posting on social media, when I put a lot of thought into something, it really lands for a lot of people, and I'm really good at this.
Whereas in my personal life, like you, I grew up, didn't have a ton of friends, got rejected by all the girls in high school, was kind of bullied a little bit. So there was still that scar tissue there that was hard to work through.
Isn't that interesting? Yeah. But I think this is interesting because I don't think most people talk about feedback and receiving feedback.
I think it's really valuable to get it as consistent as you can. And also, I look at a lot of my comments on whatever, YouTube or social media, not in a sense of like, I'm worried what people are saying, but more as feedback.
Because if there is one person or two people saying, I didn't like how you did this, I'm like, okay, is this true for me? And is there a place I can improve or is it just something they didn't enjoy? Whereas if I see a bunch of common themes around people saying, hey, you're interrupting too much, or you're doing this too much, or whatever, then I'm like, okay, here's a theme of different perspectives giving me feedback. Don't take it personally, but see how can I improve this? If I want to.
If I don't care about what they think, then I'll do whatever I want. But if I'm trying to get better, if I'm trying to serve better, if I'm trying to be a better interviewer, things like that, then let me take the feedback without taking it personally and try to notice next time.
And that's been helpful. Yeah.
So that's another skill, right? It's like knowing when to take feedback and when to ignore it. Because sometimes people don't get what you're about.
Sometimes people don't understand what you're doing. Sometimes people project what they would do and try to get you to do what they would do, right? So there's a certain amount of wisdom and consideration that I think is required to notice those moments of like, okay, I know this person has my best interests at heart, but they also don't really get what I'm trying to do.
They're doing what they would try to do. They're telling me to do what they would try to do.
So it's tricky. I had an Instagram post that went viral.
It said, if you wouldn't ask them for advice, then why the fuck do you care about their criticism? Yeah. And I think what people, the mistake that a lot of people make is that they don't think about where the feedback or the advice is coming from.
So true. So they're like, oh, this person like what i'm doing they say i should be doing this better and it's like well yeah but do you respect where this person's coming from like because it's not you don't have to right yeah just because someone said they don't like something you're doing doesn't mean they're the best opinion to listen to yeah for your advice that's interesting i like that a but it's lot.
It's kind of like when you get a negative review as an author, I don't know if you feel this way, but whenever I see a negative review, I'm like, this person is not a writer who's leaving a nasty review on Amazon. I don't know if I've ever left a bad review since writing a book for anyone else.
Totally. Because you know the pain, the time, the energy, and just putting a book out, even if it's bad.
Yeah. You know, I could give some feedback, but not like one star, I hated it.
You know, it's like no one writing books are leaving negative reviews for anyone else writing books. Yeah.
They don't. You know what's funny? This is actually, I'm glad you brought this up because the two most prominent negative reviews i've ever gotten i actually feel kind of good about are they from writers no okay so the first one is i think if you go if you go to the amazon page of subtle art and i give you a fuck the top negative review i think it describes me as as the guy in the bar who thinks he's smarter than he is.
And who's like lecturing you and thinks he's smarter than he is. And I was like, yeah, that is kind of my vibe.
Like I kind of am that guy. Like I've been to a lot of bars and I've been that guy quite a bit.
And then the other one uh my second book when it came out the the london sunday uh the sunday times in london uh it was like an 80 year old guy reviewed it which i don't know why they asked him to do it he said um he said manson is like he said the problem with manson is that he's like the local drunk who spent too much time in the philosophy section oh my gosh that's so funny dude and i was like yeah he gets it it's the same it reminds me it reminds me of google hunting you know the yeah the scene in the bar where there's a guy who's like philosophizing yeah and then whatever anyways but i mean well my point there is that they're criticizing me for the thing that i i think other people love me for yes which is Exactly. Which is like, I'm like a friend in the bar who's giving you advice, right? That's totally why my fans like me.
And so when I see that criticism- You're like, I like this. I'm like, I'm on the right track.
I'm not right for you, but thank you for pointing that out because it means I'm on the right track. Yeah, that's cool.
Yeah. Well, now here's an interesting question for you.
What is the feedback?

If you were a coach and you could get out of yourself and see who you are and everything you've been about in the last, I don't know, how old are you?

40?

40.

40.

If you could see everything you've created, which are not you, but you could see it, and

you know all of your dreams over the next three, five, 10 years, and where you want to go in your health and your relationships or your spiritual journey or financial opportunities, what feedback would you give yourself? This is a tough question, man. I'm thinking about your mom.
Oh, why? Why? Because you told me the last time that came on, your mom really the questions oh god yeah okay you said your mom watched she really liked the questions and she really liked the responses that you had because she had to hear you say these things ah yeah yeah and i'm curious so if you could coach yourself what feedback would you give yourself i so the the area of my life that I think I'm not killing it right now, and this is honestly, this has been a struggle for a long time. It is reaching out to people, staying connected to people.
It's kind of social life. It's like non-romantic relationships, right? It's reaching out to friends, checking in with people, following up with people, being like, you know, hey, sorry we missed each other last weekend.
We should hang out next weekend. Like, I'm really bad about that.
I'm very passive and reactive. And it's a bad habit that I've fallen into throughout my life.
And it's funny because at the beginning of this year, my wife and I, we set intentions for the year. And one of my intentions was to be better about this.
I think I got a little bit better, but I'm like still bad at it. I've noticed it in the last couple of years.
You know, we're not like best friends hanging out at the time, but you've reached out a couple of times. Yes.
Whereas before you never did. Yeah.
You know, I was like, so I was like, huh, what is he changing something about himself? I trying i noticed it i'm trying man i'm not expecting a text from you every month or something but the fact that you're just like hey just checking in let's go for a hike sometime or whatever once in a while i'm like it's it's noticeable because you never did it before yes and so i'm seeing that you're taking those actions and i'm sure you're doing with others too i'm terrible at it and. And it's, it's something that I'm, I've had to be very conscious about.
And it's like, it's silly because it's the superficial stuff. Like, like when I'm in person and you can attest to this, like when we're in front of each other, it's great.
Like I can talk all day. We can hang out, like everything's good, but it's for some reason, like that, that connection, that texting, the calling, the responding, the emails, like the scheduling stuff.
Like I'm always really bad about that. And it seems silly because it's the superficial side of it.
But I don't know. Like part of it is just, you know, being busy, quote unquote, like we all are.
But part of it too, like sometimes I wonder if it isn't a little bit of residue from like that social anxiety i was talking about sure you know if like i'm like uh weekend's coming up i should i want to do something with somebody but i don't know who and i don't know if they're busy what if they reject me right like i don't know if like what to invite them to like what if it's something lame you know what if they don't want to come? You know, so it's... They can say no.
There's probably, there's probably like some really subtle... Interesting.
...residual stuff like that down there. Or maybe I just never developed the skill.
Yeah, yeah. I think it's a skill.
Yeah. I think it's a skill because that's something, it's interesting.
I almost have the opposite feedback for myself, which in the last, and maybe we talked about this last time we hung out, but I was connected with everyone too frequently. I had built my kind of business in building relationships.
Yeah. And I felt like I was spreading myself too thin.
Yeah. And I felt the opposite of like, I'm just pouring in everyone else and I don't feel like people are as invested in me.
Yeah. And I was starting to feel like resentful or frustrated or like, oh, oh, I'm drained, you know? Yeah.
So it's like, let me reclaim my energy. And I had to, in the last year and a half, say no to people, create boundaries with people.
Like, it was more the fear of hurting their feelings if I need to create a boundary or just say no to them. Yeah.
They wanted to spend time together. They wanted something.
They wanted to come on a show, whatever it is. And I just had to say, no, I can't do this.
And be okay with disappointing them, letting them down, thinking they're judging me, which was my greatest challenge. Yeah.
That's another skill. That is a skill.
I didn't have that skill. You probably had that skill.
I have no problem saying no to people. You're like, screw you.
I don't care. And that was a skill that I've had.
I'm like still learning. I haven't mastered it.
It's still like a, it's a muscle I'm building where I'm just like, okay, I have to learn how to be okay with not upsetting. We all take supplements or at least we know we should, but why are so many supplement companies charging ridiculous prices for products that really aren't that special? It's frustrating and frankly, unacceptable.
Live Good is a brand that believes everyone deserves access to high-quality supplements without the insane markups. They offer premium products formulated by an industry-leading team of natural health experts at the lowest prices anywhere.
Live Good also has collagen, weight loss products, protein powder, skincare products, and more. All high high quality products at prices people can actually afford.
And I've been trying their organic super greens and loving it. It helps fill in the gaps when I'm not eating enough fruits and veggies and keeps up my energy.
I just mix a scoop into my smoothie or water every day, and it's been super easy to add my routine, and I feel great. Ready to start saving? Just go to livegood.com slash greatness to save 10% on your first order.
That's livegood.com slash greatness. As a loyal listener of this show, you're always challenging yourself to grow, to be better, to keep learning, and Southern New Hampshire University can help.
Southern New Hampshire University offers over 200 career-focused degree programs online. Plus, Southern New Hampshire University has some of the lowest online tuition rates in the U.S., so balancing school, work, and life actually feels achievable and affordable, too.
Find your degree at snhu.edu slash greatness. That's snhu.
edu slash greatness do you feel like an internal resistance when it when that situation comes out or remember for like you know i need to take a deep breath or what if they react or that's how it was i'm a lot better now i feel like i've done it a ton this year yeah i've like immersed myself in like boundaries and nose everywhere in my life friends family like not a negative way but just right you show up for me yeah and not in an aggressive way like screw you but just like doing the action of no or setting a boundary yeah removing myself from certain you know text groups or things like this that are just i feel out of alignment with certain things i need to say to say no. I need to say no.
So a lot of people struggle with this.

Gosh, people pleasing. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So what is like the first step?

Would you say? I think the first step is what you said, which is self-awareness.

Yeah. For me, because I was feeling it for years, but I was afraid of upsetting people.

Yeah. Afraid of hurting the relationships.

And then I would resent the relationship when they would reach out and ask for something

from me, but they wouldn't just check in on me.

Yeah.

And I'd be like, and I would do it anyways.

And then I resent myself for doing something for someone else when I was frustrated that

it didn't just say, hey, what's going on?

How are you doing?

Or just texting like, hey, hope you're doing well. Yeah.
But it was only when they reached out when they wanted something. And I would reach out just to be like, hey, I saw you're doing something cool.
Congratulations. And so that would bug me because maybe I would just assume everyone does what I do, which is like thinking of them, wishing the best of them, like checking in when they do something cool online and And I'm like, hey, congrats.
What can I help with? Yeah. Anyways.
That's another, that's actually a great self-awareness point is that we all default to assuming that people do what we do or think the way that we think, right? That it's, and it's crazy because people are completely different. And it's interesting too, because the say no thing, it's crazy because people are completely different and it's interesting too because the say no thing it's funny because i probably have a very similar reaction that you have the other way hearing my problem because when i'm hearing you talk i'm like it's so easy yeah i'm like well i'm like well yeah you just say no to everybody and then the people who are really your friends will stick around and i'm like and i'm like it's solved right the solved but it's you probably hear my problem you're like yeah just text everybody and like the people who want to see you will text back and i'm like so interesting but it's so hard we have like the opposite wound or something i don't know it's that's so interesting yeah because uh with our powers combined i know we'll be the perfect friend that's so interesting well i think a lot of people struggle with these social skills.
And I think it is either emotional or psychological wounds that or just a lack of self-awareness on how to develop this skill. Yeah.
And that's why I think this is what sets people free. Like I have so much more peace in the last year and a half.
Now, the first six months of this, I didn't feel peace. I felt like, oh, this is hard.
But now on the other side of developing this skill, let's say I'm level three or four out of 10 maybe of this skill. I feel so much more peace and freedom being able to create a boundary, say no, or just not go to someone's party or event and be okay with them being upset with me yeah did you have any fallout did you have any like people get yeah uh yes i had to say no to people and i had to literally there's a few people that i had to create a boundary with over text then i've been on a phone call and just being like here's why you're not a good friend wow and that was and i was like trembling inside holy it was like i had to have the ultimate courage to be like you haven't been a good friend yeah this is why this doesn't feel good to me i don't appreciate the way you're treating me like and that was the hardest thing wow because i didn't want to upset anyone ever yeah and i did that over and over again yeah in the last year and a half but then you get to the other side and i just feel like i peace and i've also realized like the skill of not needing lots of friends yeah like you know all this you're like yeah i have like what are four friends and i don't need everyone to like me yeah i'm always trying to get people to hate me you know whatever it's like that's how you build your business right it's like pissing off 90% of people and being friends with the other it's funny because you said you grew up kind of feeling bullied and not having a lot of friends I felt the same way and I went into well let me be friends with everyone right let me try to get that approval in my 20s yeah and and have everyone like me and be the nice guy and over deliver a value yeah people see them like my worth well this is the weird thing about childhood wounds right because there's there's kind of you can go one of two directions you can either try to compensate for it for the rest of your life or you can just own it and live in it for the rest of your like identify with it and i actually think i tend to be i've mellowed quite a bit as i've gotten older but like i tend to be unnecessarily contrarian with people yes like my first my first instinct like anytime if i'm with a group of people and everybody agrees on something no my first instinct is like they're all wrong oh my god and let me figure out how they're wrong.
We find the angle where they're missing something.

Exactly.

But it's funny because it's been my superpower, right?

Like, it is that skill and that willingness has resulted in a lot of my personal success.

But...

Gosh, that's interesting.

There's been a lot of social situations, relationships, family situations where people are like, Mark, stop being an asshole, dude. Right.
You know, like back off, relax. That's interesting.
Yeah. Now, I've noticed, though, the more boundaries I've created, the more I've developed the skill of boundaries or just saying no and being okay with if there's a consequence.
And usually there's not a consequence of saying no. It's just my interpretation of like, oh, am I going to upset them? By doing this, I've gotten to the place where you are, which is, okay, you have a handful of key friends, and then the rest of the time I'm with my fiance and I'm happy.
I don't need people to like me. I don't need all these friends to be happy.
If I have more friends at a season of life, cool. If it's less or whatever, it's like, I'm okay.
Do you think the quantity of social relationships was compensating for the lack of depth, maybe? I was also always trying to go deep with people, though, too. I always wanted to go intimate and deep right away, which people are always like, oh, you're asking these deep questions and we just met each other, right? That's kind of what I do on the show.
It's like, what's your darkest secret? But I just think I just care deeply about humans also. So there's like a desire to care about humanity and help everyone, but also maybe there was a wound of no one liked me as a kid.
So it was kind of a combination of both, maybe. I used to do that as well.
And I've actually, I've noticed that that is, it's a mistake that I've noticed a lot of young people make or younger people make. And I think it's very well-intentioned.
Because I hate small talk. I've hated small talk my entire life.
And so when I was younger, I kind of had this naive view of like, I should never have to do small talk. I should just go deep with everybody I meet from day one, first step.
What's your life's biggest dream? If you only had a year to live, what would you do with it? You know, like all these questions that I used to ask in my 20s. And I think as I've gotten older, I've appreciated that depth, like you can't force depth and intimacy.
And vulnerability right away. Yeah.
Absolutely. You can't force it.
And then also a huge component of intimacy is simply time, right? It's like, it's simply spending time together. You actually, in many cases, you can develop more trust and comfort and intimacy, hanging out with a friend, watching football games every week for a few years than you can having these super deep, profound conversations and trying to force in all these personal topics.
Some of it is just being present with someone.

Yes. I'm the opposite of you, whereas you're like, how can I push everyone's buttons and almost push everyone away, but build this massive audience because I'm bringing in people who believe in the same type of thought.
Yeah. Where I built my, and you kind of built your business that way, your blog and your books that way.
Yeah. I built my business through relationships.
Yeah. I started hosting networking events in 2008, 9, 10.

And I was like, oh oh i'm building an audience and making money through relationships yeah networking creating experiences creating groups like that was kind of how i built it so i felt like i had to keep doing that yeah and i think i can only do that so much yeah of personal time invested all these different people. It just became too much.
Yeah. And I think there's probably like a a priority.
I don't want to call it a ranking or like a tier system, but you know, it's there, there probably needs to be clarity in your own life of like, okay. Friend circles, right? Like this is my friend circle.
These are people I really care about. And then these like acquaintances people i like but like you know i see them for work related stuff or i talk to them for work related stuff but like we're not we're not besties and then there's like colleagues and then there's like okay people you just do partnerships with or something yeah totally totally not everyone needs to be your friend yeah yeah but i used to want to make everyone my friend you know what i mean i don't

know but i i didn't understand not everyone needs to be your friend yeah yeah you can be friendly with everyone yeah but there's a difference i mean it's it's almost you actually don't want everybody to be your friend because then you don't really stand for anything right it's interesting Like you...

Gosh.

It's unrealistic to expect that you're gonna connect or see eye to eye with every single person that you ever meet you actually the fact that you don't connect or meet see eye to eye with some people you meet is significant because it means that you have some degree of identity and yes uniqueness values and prioritizations that differ from others. And like, that's fine.
That's totally fine. Yeah.
That's cool. Okay.
So we got self-awareness, we got feedback. What would be another skill that you think from all the research you've been doing lately that if people can learn to develop or master this psychological or emotional skill, it would improve the quality of their life? Feedback.
I'd say communication, communicating effectively with people. I think...
What's the key to having powerful communication? I think the most important thing in communicating within relationships is distinguishing between, and this ties into the feedback thing and the criticism and the judgment and everything, is like distinguishing your comments about a person's thoughts or actions versus the person themselves. I think many people's, it's instinctual for us.
Like,

let's say you say something that I completely disagree with, right? It is a human instinct for

me to be like, Lewis, you're wrong. You're an idiot.
You're all this and that. And we have to

teach ourselves to separate the idea from the person, right?

The behavior that you're doing.

Or the behavior from the person. And instead say, hey, Lewis, I don't like, I disagree with

Thank you. from the person, right? The behavior that you're doing.
Or the behavior from the person. And instead say, hey, Louis, I disagree with that idea and I don't really like it and this is why.
And maintaining respect for the person while disagreeing about the idea. So when someone has like a belief or a statement, instead of saying, you're a horrible person for thinking that.
Yes, exactly. Don't say like, how despicable are you for having this opinion? Exactly.
Instead, say something like, that opinion doesn't resonate with me. Yeah.
Or why do you think that? I disagree, but why do you think that, right? Like lead into it with curiosity and understanding that it's okay to disagree about things, even like relatively important or even ethical things, without necessarily hating or disrespecting the person. And I think this is particularly important in romantic relationships, right? Like my wife and I, we have extremely different standards when it comes to cleanliness.
Are you the clean one or is she the she is definitely the clean one and it probably drives her nuts if you don't live to some standard right absolutely right and it's you know and then she's brazilian and so we have different standards when it comes to punctuality and and she's three hours late yeah exactly it's like she starts getting ready when it ready when it's time to be there. And it's funny because a lot of us, we tie up things like cleanliness, organization, punctuality.
Like a lot of us, we often attach these things to moral judgments. Like we, it is very natural and normal to assume if somebody's 45 minutes late.
Like if I showed up 45 minutes late for this podcast, it's a total natural reaction to be like, wow, Mark's kind of an asshole. That's really disrespectful.
Like I don't like him. Right? Right.
Or if, you know, somebody just like leaves all their dirty dishes out everywhere, it's like, wow, what a mess of a person. Like what kind of person does this, you know? And we jump immediately to the judgment of the character of the person without understanding that you can have different viewpoints, prioritizations, or just perceptions of what is clean, what's not clean, what is on time, what's not on time.
And again, it's love the sinner, hate sinner hate the sin you know separate the action from the person and try to refrain as much as possible not letting the distaste of the behavior zip into your respect and your trust and your judgment or something individual have you ever done any therapy for yourself? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
What's the biggest lesson you've learned from therapy? You know, it was funny. So I did therapy for most of my 20s.
And it was really funny. I went in.
So earlier I was talking about how I blew up a bunch of relationships for no good reason. and it was as soon as I had awareness around that, like I think it was after the third or fourth relationship that I ruined, I started, I'm like, huh, I think I'm the problem.
And as soon as I realized that, I signed up for therapy. Wow.
And I was probably 23 or something. That's like young.
Yeah. Like therapy wasn't cool 17 years ago.
No, no, no. For men.
Especially for men. Yeah.
That's a very self-aware thing of you at 23 to sign up for therapy. Yeah, yeah.
I was really into meditation at the time. So I was doing a lot of meditation retreats and I was really into Buddhism and stuff.
And so I think therapy just kind of seemed like a natural extension of that, but listeners, nerd wallet wants you to let them do the work for you looking for auto insurance. The nerds will match you with top providers in your area and just a few questions.
So getting the right rate for you is simple as going to nerdwallet.com. After all, letting nerd wallet do the work is more than smart.
It's genius. Not all applicants will qualify for the lowest monthly payments.
NerdWallet Insurance Services, Inc. California resident license number OK92033.
Are you ready to level up your business? Intuit QuickBooks has got your back. Forget stressing over unpaid invoices or tracking expenses.
QuickBooks takes care of all that so you can

focus on growing. Let QuickBooks...
Thank you. way to money.
Money movement services are provided by Intuit Payments, Inc., licensed as a money transmitter by the New York State Department of Financial Services. So I remember I went to therapy and I intentionally chose a male therapist and because I want to talk about girls, right? Like that was in my head, that was my issue.
It's like, oh, all these girls, they're crazy. You know, I can't keep a girlfriend around.
You around. There's all this drama going on.
And I remember I sat down with him and we started talking and I was like, I have all these girl problems. I really want to sort through them with somebody.
And we spent the next two months talking about my parents. The girlfriends never even came up.
It was just all childhood parents the entire time. And there was just so much stuff back there, like down there, like stuff I never thought about.
There were so many times where like I would describe something to him and he would just look at me and he'd be like, yeah, that sounds like trauma. You know? And I'm like, really? And he's like, yeah, that's not normal.
You know? And I had no idea. No idea.
Because we all grow up assuming that our childhood is normal. We assume that it's everybody's childhood, that everybody's family operates the way our family operated.
Everybody's mother is the way our mother was, right? Like, we never consider that it could be different or that the way we grew up was unusual in some way. And so coming back to the self-awareness piece, like that's incredibly powerful when you realize like, hey, the water I've been swimming in since I was a child is not normal water.
Like this is... Rocky waters.
Yeah, this is all splashing around and messed up. Like I'm not seeing clearly.
So that was very powerful for me. And the second thing I remember, this was before I started my career or anything.
I remember kind of once I got towards the end of the therapy and he and I started talking about ending it, he actually told me, he was like, you know, you'd be pretty good at this. I was like, really? He's like, yeah.
If you're still thinking about careers you should consider psychology I was like you know you'd be pretty good at this i was like really he's like yeah if you if you're still thinking about careers you should consider psychology i was like i was like yeah we'll see let's do it look at you now i know right speaking of psychology in the self-help world what is the advice in the self-help world right now that you think people should ignore ignore like what's out there in the world that you're seeing people speaking about or content or people saying, ah, you should do this, but you actually shouldn't do that? You know, it's not so much that something should be ignored, but I do think there are a number of things that like tend to get overrated or maybe overrated at the moment. Like I think they,

there's certain things that get a lot of traction on social media. And so they,

they just get spread everywhere and then people start kind of exaggerating what they are. Like,

I'll give you one example is narcissism. I knew you were going to say that.
Yeah. I knew you were

to say this because I just feel like I literally knew you were to say this. I was going to say it

before you, but I want to visit because I feel like that's all people talk about. It's everywhere.
It's absolutely everywhere. I see it on a million accounts.
I see like whenever I post anything about it, it gets shared a million times. And I've been running into it, you know, in conversations with people and fans.
Like people start like, whoa, you know, I've had all these narcissists in my life and I had to cut them out. And I'm like, whoa, okay, hold on, time out.
And like narcissism is a thing, obviously. It's a very bad thing.
It's a very difficult thing to deal with, but it's not necessarily around every corner. And the problem with narcissism is that it's, you need to have extended exposure to a person to like properly diagnose it.
You can't just be with somebody for a month or a few months or have them do one thing mean to you or be selfish in one way and be like, oh, well, they're a narcissist and I shouldn't have to ever deal with them again. And I think it's, people are using it as an excuse to exit difficult situations and difficult relationships that in reality could probably be improved with a certain amount of patience and work um so i worry about that i worry there's a lot of statistics around um parents or kids cutting off their parents and and i think a lot of it is is you know the narcissistic parents is kind of becoming the just or toxic parents is the justification for it and it really makes me uncomfortable because you can have really terrible parents but you can manage that relationship and manage your exposure to them in a way that you don't have to eliminate them from your life permanently.
Yeah, you can create a boundary. Exactly.
And I feel like people are just using narcissism as an excuse to not do the hard work of boundaries, essentially. Yeah.
Man, that's interesting. Okay.
So that's something you feel like is getting either overblown up or overrated in terms of where it's at. Is there any other self-help or personal development advice you're seeing in the world that you feel like, I don't know if that's actually the best approach? Maybe not a person who's saying something, but a concept.
Yeah, a concept. Well, I've got a whole rant about Which.
My audience loves manifestation. I know they do.
It's going to trigger everyone. I know they do.
Trigger warning. Mark's coming in on the manifestation.
Let's hear it. It's not that it's wrong.
Like, it is a thing, right? It's just I don't like the explanation for it, which is, you know. What's the explanation you hear that you don't like? The explanation I hear is very woo-woo.
And like, and also there's a little bit, speaking of narcissism, there's a little bit of kind of spiritual narcissism in it of like, of like, oh, if you really wish for something and you really focus on it, the universe is going to conspire to give it to you because, you know, there's energy in the world and it's all going to like coalesce. I'm like, come on, really? It's, look, as somebody, there are very well understood, well-documented cognitive biases in psychology.
Like that our minds are not 100% accurate. Like we perceive things inaccurately.
One way to think about it is that it is a lot of information in the world. And our minds are not fully capable of processing all the information at all given times.
And so our mind uses shortcuts to narrow in and focus on what matters. Your mind can't process everything that it's perceiving, right? So your mind takes shortcuts.
And one of those shortcuts is something known as confirmation bias. And it's confirmation bias is super simple, which is basically whatever you are thinking about, your perception will look for in your environment, right? So everybody's- Is that like a placebo or no? I mean, everybody's experienced this many times.
So for example, let's say you're thinking about buying a new car. You probably go years without paying much attention to what other cars are on the highway.
But as soon as you think to yourself, I'm going to buy a new car. I think I'm going to switch models.
Suddenly, every day you're driving to work and you notice every single car around you. You're like, huh, I wonder what that one is.
I wonder if that's expensive. That one looks nice.
Maybe I'll get that. And suddenly, because you've prioritized cars in your mind, you start noticing them in your environment in a way that you never noticed before.
And this has a very noticeable effect. So if I tell you that the color orange is going to be very important in your life over the next week, you probably see the color orange a million times a day, but you never care and you never think about it.
But if I tell you that and you believe it, you'll start noticing orange in all these little things that you do all the time. So you can leverage cognitive bias in your favor, which is by focusing and thinking about your goals, right? It's like if I want to achieve something really important, if I focus and think about that day after day after day, I will start noticing opportunities or things that could help me achieve that in my environment, going about my day-to-day life.
Now, those opportunities and things were always there. I just wasn't paying attention to them.
Because I've been thinking about it regularly, now I notice them, right? So it's manifestation. There's nothing manifesting.
It was already there. It was there the whole time.
You just didn't prioritize it, so you never noticed. And so it's this is what i mean when it's like it's not wrong it's just described poorly right and i'm like and i'm a science nerd so i'm like well why why can't we just call it cognitive leveraging cognitive bias well is it that's not very catchy and it doesn't sell a lot that's interesting no i like this approach though because there are certain people that will just say oh if you just think about it it, it comes to you or whatever.
The universe is conspiring in your favor.

And when you set an intention, it all floods your way. Which, whether you believe that or not, what you said is actually what a lot of people talk about with manifestation.
Yes. These things are already out there.
Yes. And when you put your intention on a goal, a vision, a dream, whatever you want to create,

then you can go find that thing through daily actions. Yes.
And the more clear your intention and the more active you're thinking about that thing and acting on it, the closer you're going to find it, the quicker you're going to find it. Absolutely.
You call that cognitive bias, not manifestation. You can call it whatever you want.
It's just, it's the explanation that drives me crazy. I hear you.
You know, it's like, when I hear the flighty woo-woo, oh, the universe is, your energy is aligned with this. And I'm like, yeah, I'm like, whatever, man.
Yeah, it works. Okay, great.
You call it confirmation bias. It is, like in psychology, we've known it for 50 years.
That's great. It's confirmation bias.
It's a thing. You can totally leverage it in your favor.
I love it. Whatever it is you believe, if you're taking the actions around, whether you call it confirmation bias or anything else.
It's the intention and the action. That's it.
That's it. There you go.
Okay, perfect. So we agree on that.
I agree on that, yeah. So it's the way certain people explain it when they don't add those things.
That's what frustrates you. And the explanation does matter because bad explanations, people can start making poor assumptions based on bad explanations.
100%. So it's like, let's say you set an intention for a certain goal and it doesn't work out.
It ends up being harder than you expected. Or maybe you achieve it and it doesn't make you happy.
Well, now you've got this like cosmological conundrum of like, well, maybe the universe doesn't want me to be happy. Well, no, no, it's just you thought you wanted a thing and you got it.
And now you actually realize it doesn't make you happy. Very human experience, completely normal.
So it's I get I just have a natural allergy to like the the cosmological woo-woo explanations because I just I think it it can get people into trouble down there sure sure sure it makes sense what is the you know being 40 now what is the skill you think you're going to need to learn to master

for the next 40 years of your life? Oh, man. Because you've created so much,

you've accomplished so much, you've got, you know, probably every type of goal you want to

accomplish, you've done it a million times over with the amount of books you've sold and all the

things you've created and the lives you've impacted and being married for eight plus years now and

all these different things. But for the next 40, what's the skill you need to master to feel happy or abundant or joyful or, you know? I feel happy and abundant and joyful.
I don't know. It's, I don't know, maybe you're in the same spot, but like it's actually, I was talking to a friend about this just a couple days ago, how early in my career, you know, I was messed up.
I was still working through a lot of shit, right? And so there was a certain like energy and fire to my work because it was also my therapy. Like, you know, it's like I, like my relationships are falling apart and I've got all this self-doubt and insecurity in these areas of my life.
And it just, it like fueled a very passionate output. And I really do feel like I've reached a point in my life where most areas of my life I'm pretty satisfied with.
Like there, there's obviously always things I could do better. And there's some areas that I think I could get better at, but ultimately all All in all, I'm like, I'm pretty satisfied with.
There's obviously always things I could do better, and there's some

areas that I think I could get better at. But ultimately, all in all, I'm in a really good

place, and I feel like I've figured out a lot of my crap. And it's interesting being in this

industry now because some of that fire's gone or that edge has been taken off.

Because you're peaceful and you're happy.

I'm peaceful. I'm good, man.
I don't need to get angry about stuff interesting and so so maybe it's let him go letting go of something or yeah yeah and also it's just enjoying it all now it's like i that's what i would say is is not having to freaking prove yourself or do the next big thing that would be the skill that's interesting is is not like being you know, like, wow, not feeling like I need to go conquer more stuff. And, and I feel like I really, especially in the last year or two, like, I really feel like I'm kind of arriving at that place where it's like, I've got a bunch of business goals, but it's just fun.
Like, I'm just doing it because it's awesome and fun. And I have goals in my personal life and my health and my relationships, but it's really just because it's just good.
It's just fun. It's good for me.
It's good for the people around me. There's nothing...
I'm not trying to prove anything. I'm not trying to win anything.
It's a great place to be, and I just really hope I can stay here. I don't get like sucked, you know.
Captivated by some. Chasing some rat race somewhere, you know.
So. I think that's really interesting you say that because there's a lot of people, most people don't have that skill.
Yeah. And I think that is, and there's a season for that skill.
Because I think when you're 22 and you're broke and you're trying to like- You shouldn't have it. Develop, you know, talents and skills where you can add value to people in society.
You've got to, well, hustle's the right word, but you've got to work hard. You've got to overcome challenges.
You've got to deliver value. You've got to figure out what your path is.
but there's a i come back to this quote that jim carrey said a few years ago um when he was like retiring although i just saw that he's got his i think his final movie's coming out right now but the interview someone interviewed him he's like yeah i think i'm done with with like acting yeah and the interviewer was really sad and he said why you can't you're like so great and amazing and he goes i'm going to tell you something that i don't think any celebrity would ever tell you and that is that i have enough i am enough or i have enough i've done enough and i am enough yeah and he's like i don't think any celebrity will ever tell you that yeah but at j at Jim Carrey's age and success, like he's got like three, four decades of freaking wins, right? And like unlimited wealth and fame. Sure.
Maybe at that level, he felt like, yes. But he didn't feel that 20 years prior.
Yeah. You know, but he looked peaceful knowing that he doesn't have to go do more.
Yeah. To fulfill something for himself, to feel enough.
And I think that's a very powerful skill. And even if you're in your 20s or 30s and you're like, well, I still want to do more.
It's how can you do it from a place of I am enough, no matter what the outcome is. Right.
That's the key. That is power.
That's the key. And it's it's it's hard though because like uh what if you

would have never sold this many copies or never been on your time bestseller or never yeah would you still be like oh i gotta prove something i gotta become better to like do this thing i don't know i maybe i'm naive but i i feel like a lot of older folks reach this the place this place kind of naturally, you know? And it's, I don't know what you just described, that feeling of enough, that like to me that feels like the best definition of success that you could possibly have is having enough. So I don't know if I'm quite there, but this is definitely the closest I've ever been in my life.
And I'm definitely in a place, too, where I'm not wanting for anything. I'm not, you know, I've got a great relationship.
I've got friends. I've got hobbies.
My health's good. My business is great, you know.
So as long as nothing deteriorates, I've won already. You've won big, man.
And I think having peace with where you're at, because a lot of people, I think suffering is not being happy with what you have. Yes.
And it's like there are people that we know who have a lot that aren't happy or they still feel like they need more in order to fulfill something. Yeah.
And that doesn't seem like peace to me. Yeah.
And I don't know, even if I feel like, oh gosh, I've got all the money in the world or whatever it might be, I feel like I'm still going to want to pursue things, but not out of like proving people wrong or proving that I can do something, but just because it's going to serve people and it's going to serve me and I'm going to enjoy it. Yeah.
And I think that's where hopefully people can get to. I think the service thing is the key.
It kind of flips it around, right? I think when you're young, you want to prove something, prove you're enough, have enough, right? Yep. And then once you feel like you have enough, you kind of just want to give it back.
You kind of want to help other people up. 100%, man.

Well, you're doing that in a big way with your YouTube series that you have.

And you do a lot of docu-style videos on psychological skills and mindsets

and things like that where people can learn.

I want people to follow you on YouTube.

What's the best place we can go follow you there or your site?

Check out Mark Manson on YouTube.

I'm on all the social accounts. I'm on everything.
Check out my podcast. I'm everywhere.
You can't escape me, man. That's it, man.
Every bookstore, every website, everywhere. It's great, man.
Yeah, if you haven't checked out Subtle Art of Not Giving a F*** yet, check it out. If you're trying to learn how to stop people pleasing and to create boundaries, that's a great book.
It's a good book for it, yeah. So check that out, markmanson.net.
You're doing a lot of long-form content in your podcast as well right now. You're diving deeper into subjects.
People can check that out. Is it I am Mark Manson on YouTube or is it Mark Manson? Just Mark Manson.
Mark Manson on YouTube. And everyone's social media.
Where's your main platform? Is it Instagram or X or where do you like to share the most bite-sized content? Instagram. Instagram.
Check me out on Instagram. Mark Manson over there.
Yeah. Mark, appreciate you as always, man.
Thanks for giving us these kind of skills that I think will help us improve the quality of our life. Anyway, brother.
Always my pleasure. I'm excited, man.
Thank you. I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness.
Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me personally, as well as ad-free listening, then make sure to subscribe to our Greatness Plus channel exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts as well. Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review.
I really love hearing feedback from you and it helps us figure out how we can support and serve you moving forward. And I want to remind you if no one has told you lately that you are loved, you are worthy,

and you matter.

And now it's time to go out there and do something great.