Harvard Psychiatrist: How To Heal Your Mind With Your Diet - The Scientific Connection Between Nutrition & Mental Health

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Speaker 1 Welcome back, my friend, to the School of Greatness. Today, we have a groundbreaking conversation as I sit down with Harvard psychiatrist Dr.

Speaker 1 Chris Palmer to explore the revolutionary connection between mental health and metabolism. Drawing from his 29 years of clinical experience, Dr.

Speaker 1 Palmer is going to reveal how our current mental health crisis is deeply linked to something very specific that so many of us are struggling with.

Speaker 1 Before we dive into this, I just want to say thank you.

Speaker 1 So many of you have been supporting me over the last week as we made this announcement with my first ever national book tour coming up in just a few short weeks.

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Speaker 1 And make sure you go check out lewishouse.com/slash tour right now to see if I'm coming to one of your cities or fly into one of the cities that I'm coming to and get your tickets right now because we're going to do something really powerful.

Speaker 1 I've got a book coming out, and we're going to be talking about the book, Make Money Easy, which is all about your path to peace, freedom, and financial abundance.

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Speaker 1 I'm very very excited because in every city, we're going to be having a massive surprise guest as well.

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Speaker 1 I hope to see you at one of these cities coming up here very soon. And also, today, we have a big guest again, Dr.
Chris Palmer.

Speaker 1 He's going to share shocking statistics about the rise in mental health disorders from anxiety and depression to ADHD and bipolar disorder and makes a compelling case for why integrating physical and mental health treatment could be the key to helping millions recover.

Speaker 1 He's going to share so many powerful insights today. I hope you get out your pen and paper or take notes in your phone app.

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Speaker 1 I'm so grateful you're here on the School of Greatness. Now let's dive in.
Welcome back, everyone, at the School of Greatness. Very excited about our guests.
We have the inspiring Dr.

Speaker 1 Chris Palmer in the house. Thank you so much for being here.

Speaker 2 Thank you for inviting me.

Speaker 1 Very excited about this because you have incredible credentials, Harvard psychiatrist, trained researcher, and you are helping people overcome one of the biggest challenges in the world right now, which is understanding mental health, anxiety, PTSD, all these different things that are related around mental health.

Speaker 1 And it seems like the rise of mental health symptoms have exponentially grown in the last decade. And it seems like people are more medicated than ever before, and it's making them sicker, not better.

Speaker 1 And as a Harvard-trained researcher and psychiatrist who also has prescribed people medication over the years. It seems to me like you found new ways to help heal mental health disorders.

Speaker 1 Is that correct? That is not related to medication.

Speaker 2 That is correct. It's related, it's about integrating physical health and mental health.
And when you put it together,

Speaker 2 more often than not, you can actually help people heal and recover.

Speaker 1 What would you say then is the root cause of mental disease? And is that the correct way to say it? Is it a mental disease or mental disorder, mental health condition? What is the correct...

Speaker 2 That

Speaker 2 is the dollar question.

Speaker 2 Because some people will say,

Speaker 2 I'm struggling with my mental health. I'm burned out.
That is very different than

Speaker 2 I'm struggling with my mental health because I had a really horrible childhood,

Speaker 2 which is different than I have a mental illness.

Speaker 2 Which is different than I have a mental disorder or my son has a mental dissevere chronic disabling mental disorder,

Speaker 2 which is different than I'm neurodivergent.

Speaker 2 I'm just neurodivergent. People need to accept me.
I have a different brain. I'm autistic or I have ADHD or I have a learning disorder.

Speaker 2 We have these different labels, these different words, and they can mean vastly different things.

Speaker 2 And yet, they're all interconnected. They can't be separated.
And

Speaker 2 I think that's one of the more complex areas because even the surgeon general is saying things like, we have a mental health epidemic and one of the root causes is loneliness. Yes.

Speaker 2 If we just address loneliness, we'll address this mental health epidemic.

Speaker 1 But you can be in a community of your friends and family, but if you're eating all the wrong things, it's going to affect your brain and your mental health as well.

Speaker 2 Exactly. There's more to mental health than just loneliness.
So yes, I don't disagree with the Surgeon General that loneliness is one piece of the puzzle.

Speaker 2 I don't think that we have a loneliness epidemic that is driving autism, that is driving ADHD, that is driving bipolar disorder.

Speaker 2 I don't think. the loneliness epidemic is driving all of those things.
I think there's much more to the equation than that.

Speaker 1 What is the main thing that is driving depression, anxiety, ADHD, bipolar? what is the main root cause of those things?

Speaker 2 At the end of the day, it is metabolic dysfunction.

Speaker 1 And what is metabolic dysfunction?

Speaker 2 So, you know, that even gets really complicated fast.

Speaker 2 The easiest way to explain it is that, you know, most people think of metabolism in simple terms.

Speaker 2 And they think about it as either you got a fast metabolism or a slow metabolism, and that makes you lose weight or gain weight.

Speaker 2 Athletes might think about metabolism in a somewhat more sophisticated way. They might talk about VO2 max and some other things.

Speaker 2 If you've got a good metabolism, a healthy metabolism, a superior metabolism, you can run faster, you can lift more, you can do more,

Speaker 2 you have endurance. You can run for 30 miles instead of the person who can only make it two miles and then peters out.

Speaker 2 And the reality is metabolism is those things and is related to those things and does largely influence those things, but metabolism is so much more than just those things.

Speaker 2 You know, the simplest definition is probably it's a process that all living organisms use to take food, oxygen, and some other critical ingredients like vitamins and nutrients and turn those into

Speaker 2 energy. or building blocks for cells.

Speaker 2 And that

Speaker 2 that is what fuels our bodies. It's how our bodies grow.
It's how our cells repair themselves. But it's also how our cells end up making hormones.
It's how they make neurotransmitters.

Speaker 2 It's how our muscles move. In a way, metabolism

Speaker 2 is biology.

Speaker 2 So in that sense, it's like this overwhelmingly complicated thing.

Speaker 1 So if your biology is bad or off,

Speaker 1 your mental health is probably going to be off as well.

Speaker 2 Depending on where in the body it's occurring, yes.

Speaker 2 When your biology is off or when your metabolism is off, you are likely going to have signs or symptoms of a problem somewhere in your brain or body.

Speaker 2 And that could be high blood pressure, high blood glucose in the form of prediabetes or diabetes. It could be obesity.

Speaker 2 It could be depression or anxiety or ADHD symptoms or seizures or Alzheimer's disease. It spans all of those.

Speaker 2 Again, not because metabolism is simple, but because metabolism is ridiculously complicated and all-encompassing when it comes to biology.

Speaker 2 So in that sense, some researchers will even push back on me and say, Chris, come on, that's not very helpful.

Speaker 2 If you're saying that all of this is related to biology, then that doesn't really help us much.

Speaker 2 But if once you see this big picture and you see these different puzzle pieces and how they all fit together, you can actually come up with shockingly revolutionary treatment sometimes

Speaker 2 for people with mild mental health conditions all the way to severe, crippling, disabling mental health conditions.

Speaker 2 And at the same time you're helping them improve their mental health, you can help them achieve a healthy weight and lower their blood pressure and live longer and live healthier.

Speaker 1 What do you mean, as a

Speaker 1 Harvard researcher psychiatrist, you're supposed to be studying the brain or the mind, right? You're not supposed to be studying or thoughts. You're not supposed to be studying the body, right?

Speaker 2 That is exactly right. That's the way most people think of a psychiatrist.
Right.

Speaker 1 Don't think about the rest of the body. Just the mind or the brain or the thoughts, thoughts, right?

Speaker 2 You're a shrink, and you lay people on couches, and you talk to them about their dreams and their past and their childhood and everything else.

Speaker 2 Or you're focused on these chemical imbalances, all these neurotransmitters, and you're prescribing pills. Lithium, Prozac, Zoloft, Xanax, Klonopin, Depicote, whatever.

Speaker 2 You're just prescribing pills to try to modulate the brain activity.

Speaker 1 The body doesn't work modularly, it works as a unified system, right?

Speaker 2 It sure does. It sure does.

Speaker 1 You can't treat one element of the body or the brain by itself without hopefully treating the holistic part of the human being, correct?

Speaker 2 I think that is,

Speaker 2 you know, what you just said is 100% correct. And what you just said, when you say it like that, it sounds so obvious.

Speaker 2 Most people are going to think, well, duh.

Speaker 2 But we in the mental health field, I just want to make clear how

Speaker 2 disruptive this is to the current paradigm. We in the mental health field prescribe pills that cause obesity.

Speaker 1 That cause it.

Speaker 2 Cause it.

Speaker 2 We give people pills and they gain 100 pounds in one year. Really? We, at the same time, they have dramatic increase in cardiovascular risk factors.

Speaker 2 They develop pre-diabetes or diabetes, and at least in the elderly,

Speaker 2 some of the medications we prescribe cause premature death. Wow.

Speaker 2 And these, this is not like conspiracy theory stuff.

Speaker 2 These warnings are all listed on the package inserts

Speaker 2 issued by the FDA.

Speaker 1 That side effects may include

Speaker 2 weight gain. Diabetes, cardiovascular risk.

Speaker 1 So people know that these side effects are most likely going to happen and they take it anyways.

Speaker 2 They take it anyways because that's what the doctors are telling them they need.

Speaker 1 And they probably have lived in a lot of pain and suffering for so long that they want some relief also. They're desperate.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 They're desperate. And

Speaker 2 they are,

Speaker 2 you know, in extreme cases,

Speaker 2 lives are ruined.

Speaker 1 Families are ruined also.

Speaker 2 Families are like lives are ruined.

Speaker 2 So this broken, vulnerable family, whether it's your parents, your spouse, your children,

Speaker 2 take this vulnerable human being to a doctor and say, please, I'm begging you, help us.

Speaker 2 And the doctor says,

Speaker 2 we're going to use these pills. And these pills are going to help your symptoms.
They are anti-psychotics. They are mood stabilizers.
They are antidepressants. They are whatever.

Speaker 2 And again, not all of the pills have the same side effects. So I'm not here to berate psychiatric meds altogether.
I think psychiatric meds can save people's lives.

Speaker 2 I think some people really benefit from them.

Speaker 2 So I can play both sides of that fence.

Speaker 2 But the most disruptive part about linking physical health with mental health, or linking metabolic health with mental health, is that so many of our standard treatments are doing exactly the opposite of what we want to do.

Speaker 2 And that needs to change. And it needs to change as soon as possible because lives are at stake, and human beings are suffering.
Yes.

Speaker 1 I'm curious, based on your, how long have you been a psychiatrist for now?

Speaker 2 29 years. Almost 30 years.

Speaker 1 Almost three decades. You've probably seen a lot of changes over the last three decades.

Speaker 2 How many, in your opinion,

Speaker 1 how many people in America or in the world who you think are on mental health drugs, some type of mental health related drug, actually don't need to be on them if they take other intervention approaches through the things that you're talking about, the health and wellness, the right foods, the right sleep.

Speaker 1 How many people would you think don't need to be on those drugs if they intervene in a different way? Is it 10% that don't need them? Is it 90%? Is it

Speaker 1 only, you know, what's the percentage?

Speaker 2 It is, it's a really important question,

Speaker 2 and the real answer is I'm kind of wildly guessing. Yeah.
But I'll at least share with you the basis for my wild guess.

Speaker 2 At best, it's maybe

Speaker 2 20%.

Speaker 1 Don't need them.

Speaker 2 Who, 20% who do need them? 20% who do. 80%

Speaker 2 who probably

Speaker 2 could get by if we as society take a different

Speaker 2 stance and use different strategies for human health care, integrating physical health and mental health.

Speaker 2 And the reason I say that is because the rates of many mental disorders are at all time ever recorded highs. The rates of depression, all-time highs.

Speaker 2 the rates of anxiety, especially in children, have tripled in 15 years. Anxiety disorders diagnosed by pediatricians tripled in 15 years.
The rates of ADHD have tripled since 2010.

Speaker 2 14 years, triple the rates. The rates of autism spectrum disorder have quadrupled in 20 years.
The rates of bipolar disorder in adults have doubled in 20 years.

Speaker 2 In children and adolescents, it's up exponentially because bipolar disorder largely wasn't recognized or diagnosed 30 years ago. So it's up literally like thousands of percent.

Speaker 2 It's crazy how much that's up.

Speaker 2 The rates of eating disorder,

Speaker 2 five-fold increased risk for eating disorders. In case people have been hiding under a rock, opioid overdose deaths through the roof, five-fold increased risk in 25 years,

Speaker 2 five-fold increase in opioid overdose deaths. We've long known how to recognize that kind of thing.
There's this statistic, so a lot of people are like, oh, this can't actually be true.

Speaker 2 We're just recognizing all these diagnoses. Well, we knew how to recognize eating disorders and people starving themselves to death 30 years ago.

Speaker 1 Yeah, we could see it.

Speaker 2 There was no problem diagnosing that. We knew how to recognize opioid overdose deaths 30 years ago.

Speaker 1 People are dying.

Speaker 2 They're dead on the street.

Speaker 1 Get the bloodstream.

Speaker 2 It's not rocket science. It was not that we were stupid 30 years ago and didn't know how to recognize it or diagnose it.

Speaker 2 There's another statistic called deaths of despair, which include the opioid overdose deaths, but include suicides and other things, other causes of death, alcohol-related deaths.

Speaker 2 That is at an all-time high,

Speaker 2 at least since the Great Depression. I think we actually just a year or two ago surpassed the Great Depression.
And the reason that's important

Speaker 2 is not because the Great Depression was a lot of metabolic health conditions.

Speaker 2 The Great Depression was tremendous pain, suffering, despair, lives being destroyed, 25% unemployment rate, people standing in line for food to feed their children, people losing all of their life savings.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 there was no Social Security program back then. There were no government resources to make sure people weren't homeless.

Speaker 2 And when people are facing that kind of monumental despair, their lives are ruined. They go out and drink themselves to death.
They kill themselves on purpose. They They do all sorts of things.

Speaker 2 We are nowhere near that level of pain and suffering in theory.

Speaker 2 You look at our economy,

Speaker 2 there's no comparison.

Speaker 1 People have an abundance, in general, people have an abundance of food options. They have an abundance of shelter in general.

Speaker 1 They have an abundance of opportunities for success or jobs or careers or choices, right? You have options in general.

Speaker 2 We do. And we have safety nets.
If nothing else, safety, it's not like you're living a life of luxury with a safety net.

Speaker 1 But the government has funding for

Speaker 2 electricity, with heat. You're in a home with food.

Speaker 2 You're not standing on the street begging people for food so that you can feed your starving child.

Speaker 2 The deaths of despair are higher than that period.

Speaker 1 Why? What is the root cause? As a psychiatrist? Would you say is the root cause of you know all these different mental health disorders and diseases?

Speaker 2 You know I think those two statistics and those two periods, Great Depression and now

Speaker 2 are really telling because the real story is complicated. I'm not here to say all of mental health is due to eating bad food or people being overweight or diabetic.
I'm not here to say that

Speaker 2 because the Great Depression tells us a familiar story that most people know. When you lose everything,

Speaker 2 when you're poverty stricken, when you lose your your your

Speaker 2 life.

Speaker 2 So these are people who

Speaker 2 say take a man who had a wife and two kids. He's the provider.

Speaker 2 He loses his job. He can't feed his wife and two kids.
The wife wasn't working. She was staying home raising the kids.
They

Speaker 2 are furious with him because he had $100 in the stock market and lost it all.

Speaker 2 And that was their life savings.

Speaker 2 And now he's drinking every night. He's now an alcoholic.

Speaker 2 Or maybe using opioids, because we actually had an opioid epidemic back at the turn of the century, too. So now he's, but he's numbing his pain and his humiliation.
It's easy to understand.

Speaker 2 So those are psychological, social causes of mental illness or mental health condition.

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Speaker 2 Those still exist, and those can still cause mental illness today.

Speaker 2 But again, there's a disconnect. We have all-time ever-recorded highs now, higher than the Great Depression.
That doesn't make sense.

Speaker 2 And what is that? And what I'm saying is that sometimes biology, more than psychology or social factors, sometimes biology can drive mental illness too.

Speaker 1 Is that a sometimes or a lot of the times?

Speaker 2 I think, I think it's a lot of the times because I actually think they're all interconnected.

Speaker 1 Yeah, because what's the obesity

Speaker 1 levels today versus 30 to 50 years ago?

Speaker 2 They're staggering, as everyone knows.

Speaker 1 And type 2 diabetes.

Speaker 2 So right now, the statistics are about 70% of adult Americans are overweight or obese. About 40% of adult Americans are obese.

Speaker 2 The rates in children, it's about 40% of children now are overweight or obese.

Speaker 1 That makes me sad.

Speaker 1 When I see kids like that, it makes me sad. Because it's so hard to reverse it.
It's so hard to, I know how hard it is to lose weight. It's so hard.
But if you're starting young and you're already

Speaker 1 gaining all that weight, I just feel like it's challenging.

Speaker 1 Unless maybe when you're like 16, you hit puberty and it's like maybe metabolism like magically works better but if you keep consuming the same way without being conscious of how is this going to impact my life how is it going to impact my overall health of my my brain my heart my my muscles my everything

Speaker 1 it's so hard to reverse that and for people that are from my experience or my witnessing it, it's hard for people once they are overweight to like, first off, lose it, because it might take years.

Speaker 1 It might take years depending on how much you've gained. That is a daunting task for someone who's already not feeling good.

Speaker 1 They might be feeling shame or guilt or depression already because of their weight or their body image, right? It is daunting to try to take it on for most people.

Speaker 1 And therefore, they don't take it on. Or they try and then they fall back and then they go back to old patterns of consuming things that keep them stuck.
And it's the cycle, it's the loop.

Speaker 1 It's so hard. And that's why I get sad when I see it with kids.
And and I can imagine it's got to be tough to be a parent. I'm not a parent.

Speaker 1 So I can imagine it's tough when your kids are screaming and they want ice cream every day or whatever it is. I can imagine it's got to be really challenging.
So that's also.

Speaker 2 And it's even more challenging for parents because even if you're one of those parents who's trying your hardest to give your kids real whole food

Speaker 2 at home.

Speaker 1 At school,

Speaker 2 they go to school and get Pop-Tarts and Fruit Loops and mac and cheese and chocolate chip cookies and pizza for lunch or their snack or their breakfast or whatever. A lot of those foods,

Speaker 2 you know, the researchers will call them hyperpalatable, others will call them addictive, whichever term you prefer,

Speaker 2 those foods are designed to make people eat more of them

Speaker 2 than they should.

Speaker 1 And not feel satiated or full.

Speaker 2 And so once you start eating those foods, even if you come home to mom who's got

Speaker 2 chicken or turkey and vegetables on the table, you look at that. You might even eat it and you're still hungry.
And then what do you want?

Speaker 2 You want a bag of chips while you're watching TV or playing your video games. And your mom is going to probably ultimately give in because you're going to be whining.

Speaker 2 This kid's going to be whining about how they're still hungry.

Speaker 1 yeah and you're tired and you've worked all day and you don't have the energy to be patient I get it it's got to be challenging and no parent wants to hear their child say I'm hungry or I hate you you know

Speaker 2 yeah I hate you I'm hungry why are you starving me every parent wants their children to grow and thrive and like so like That is just an instinctual thing. We feed our children.

Speaker 2 We make sure they're not hungry. That is an instinctual thing.

Speaker 2 And so when your kids are getting hooked in other food environments that you have no control over as a parent, and then you're trying to feed them healthy food,

Speaker 2 it's an uphill battle at best and probably a losing battle

Speaker 2 for most people.

Speaker 1 For moms or parents, moms and dads watching right now, parents watching right now, as someone who has studied this for three decades, what is the link between nutrition and mental health?

Speaker 2 The reality is it gets really complicated fast

Speaker 2 and

Speaker 2 there are a lot of mental health professionals who are still skeptical about this field. I'm going to just say that up front.
Sure.

Speaker 2 And is there research or science that you've seen that's there is a tremendous amount of research and science clearly documenting these links.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 what is the link? And then what is the research and science saying about the link between mental health and nutrition?

Speaker 2 So let's build on what we were just talking about, obesity

Speaker 2 and mental health. Because there's a correlation there.
Most people understand that nutrition is related to obesity.

Speaker 2 That what you're eating plays a role in obesity.

Speaker 2 I don't have to fight too hard to convince people of that. So if we can assume that that is true, what you put in your mouth day to day plays a role in whether you have obesity or not.

Speaker 2 Once a child has obesity or an adult has obesity,

Speaker 2 they have no history of mental illness at all. They start out with obesity.

Speaker 2 Once you have obesity, you are at dramatically increased risk for a wide range of mental disorders. Really?

Speaker 2 Nicotine use disorder, schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, major depression, anxiety disorders, personality disorders, eating disorders, essentially

Speaker 2 all of the mental health conditions, all of the major categories of mental health conditions that we have are included.

Speaker 2 So if you have obesity, you are at much higher risk of developing a wide range of mental health conditions.

Speaker 2 If your parents have obesity, their offspring are at much greater risk of having neurodevelopmental disorders. Oh, man.

Speaker 2 Meaning autism, ADHD, learning disorders, and others.

Speaker 1 What is the

Speaker 1 percentage or number of, like, when someone reaches obesity level, what is the likelihood that they'll also have a mental health disorder or condition?

Speaker 1 Is there like you're 20% more likely, you're 80% more likely to have some type of mental health challenge?

Speaker 2 So, it

Speaker 2 honestly, the real details of that get down to what age is the person. Are they at an age where this disorder is more likely to occur or even be diagnosed or recognized?

Speaker 2 But the rates range anywhere from the low end is 50% more likely to have a mental health condition. The high end is 350%.

Speaker 2 Holy cow. 3.5 times more likely to have mental health conditions, including things like schizophrenia, bipolar disorder.

Speaker 1 Just linked to obesity.

Speaker 2 So we have a really good longitudinal study of children. So researchers followed over 5,000 kids from birth to age 24.

Speaker 2 So even before they have obesity, they have insulin resistance, which we can measure.

Speaker 2 The children at age nine who had the highest levels of insulin resistance were five times more likely, it's 500% more likely to develop a psychotic disorder

Speaker 2 by the time they were 24.

Speaker 2 That's bipolar disorder or schizophrenia.

Speaker 2 The children who gained the most weight around the time of puberty, four times more likely to have major depression by the time they turned 24.

Speaker 2 You could mix and match those statistics, but those were the statistically significant findings.

Speaker 2 But children who gained a lot of weight around puberty were also more likely to develop psychotic disorders and all sorts of other disorders.

Speaker 2 And likewise, children with high levels of insulin resistance,

Speaker 2 more likely to develop mood disorders and other disorders.

Speaker 2 But the bottom line is that, and a five-fold increased risk, I want to be clear, when we talk about statistics like, oh, maybe eating so much red meat is bad for you,

Speaker 2 those epidemiological studies at best find 10%, 15% increased risk over years.

Speaker 2 We're talking 500% increased risk. Man.

Speaker 2 This is not trivial. This is like slap in the face.
This is a stronger connection than genes, genetics, than family history, than other things.

Speaker 1 Because a lot of people say, well, mental health illness is like genetic, right? It's like a genetic thing, or it was in my family or my grandfather or something. But is that true?

Speaker 1 Or is it more, well, if they were obese and you also were obese as a child, it's just kind of linked because that was your environment and that was the habits that your parents did.

Speaker 1 And so you took on those habits. Like, is it truly genetic or is it it more an environmental pass-down?

Speaker 2 I think there's truth in there, there are some risk genes that we have identified. And interestingly,

Speaker 2 almost all of them can be linked directly to metabolism or specifically mitochondria. We can get into that.
Really?

Speaker 2 Nerdy biology if you want, but they can, almost all of them can be linked to metabolic health.

Speaker 1 And if you have a weaker genetic metabolic health symptoms or conditions,

Speaker 1 are you able to reverse that and improve that even if it was linked in your genes from your family?

Speaker 2 I believe we can.

Speaker 1 Wow.

Speaker 2 And that is... That's huge.

Speaker 2 That, in my mind, is the hope. Now,

Speaker 1 is that a belief or is there science or research backing the belief?

Speaker 2 There is...

Speaker 2 So we don't have massive randomized clinical trials with thousands of patients yet.

Speaker 2 So, some will say,

Speaker 2 you know, until we have a randomized controlled trial of 10,000 people with schizophrenia, we're not going to believe it. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 Fine. But based on your practice.

Speaker 2 Based on my practice, based on the thousands of people that I'm hearing from, based on the pilot trials that are getting done,

Speaker 2 yes, 100%. Wow.
I know this,

Speaker 2 these strategies, metabolic treatment strategies, can save lives, literally. Wow.
Can save lives.

Speaker 1 And these require no drugs.

Speaker 2 Yeah. If anything, the challenge sometimes is getting people off of drugs that they've been on for years or decades.

Speaker 1 So their body can start to heal and get into a cycle of harmony.

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 1 Not a cycle of chemical changing or blocking or disrupting.

Speaker 2 Yes. Again, because of this, again, I'm not anti-medication.
And if somebody's taking medications and is thriving on that medication,

Speaker 2 keep doing it. I love people thriving.
And if somebody is saying, I take a stimulant for my ADHD and I'm thriving now, great, keep thriving.

Speaker 2 If somebody else says, I have anxiety or depression and I take Prozac and it has saved my life and I'm doing great on it, and I don't have any side effects, great, keep doing it.

Speaker 2 But more often than not, a lot of people are not thriving on psychotropic medications. At best, they are managing what they are being told are chronic mental health conditions.

Speaker 2 You're going to be like this for the rest of your life.

Speaker 2 You just have to accept that, oh, it must be genetic. You know, the researchers and the clinicians who say that,

Speaker 2 I have zero doubt, they actually have such good intentions for missing it.

Speaker 1 100%.

Speaker 2 And the intention is, I don't want to blame people and I want them to know this isn't your fault.

Speaker 2 This isn't your fault. But by telling people it's genetic, it kind of gives them an out, right?

Speaker 1 It's like, oh, it's not my fault. And there's nothing I can do about it.

Speaker 2 So I think that's, again, I think that a lot of people think that that's benevolent. I actually think it's harmful because you're making people hopeless.

Speaker 2 You're telling people that you are defective. That's not good.
Your genes are defective. It's not your fault.

Speaker 2 It's your parents' fault, and their grandparents' fault, and their parents' fault, and their parents' fault.

Speaker 1 And you're going to be on medication for the rest of your life.

Speaker 2 But you're going to have to take medicine for the rest of your life. I don't like that.
And we're sorry that these meds aren't working ideally. This is the best thing.

Speaker 2 We're sorry that you're in the hospital every other year. Oh, man.

Speaker 2 We're sorry that you can't work because your depression and anxiety are so bad or because your mood instability is so bad or because your ADHD is so bad or because your learning disorder is so bad.

Speaker 2 We're sorry you can't work. We're sorry you're not thriving.
But that's just the way it is. And you're just going to have to accept it and accept that you've got this unfortunate condition.

Speaker 2 Again,

Speaker 2 in the last 25 years, we're telling that to four times more people.

Speaker 2 Four times more people than we were 25 years ago. And it's not because we're just recognizing it more.

Speaker 2 People's brains are being impaired. That's what I think.

Speaker 2 At the same time that we have skyrocketing rates of obesity and diabetes, and we see impairment and, you know, appetite signaling and satiety signaling and, you know, fat cells and everything else.

Speaker 2 That's obesity is that. Obesity is a biological, pathological process.
It is not good for you. By and large, I think for most people, it's not their fault.

Speaker 2 If somebody's telling you, eat this food, eat these chips, eat these Pop-Tarts, these are good for you, and you're eating them,

Speaker 2 and those things are making you sick,

Speaker 2 I think the first step is somebody needs to inform the person that these are not good for you. These are actually toxic for you.
They're harming your health. And so we need to start there.

Speaker 2 And then we need to start with, like, schools aren't passing out cigarettes.

Speaker 2 They're not passing out vapes. Why are they passing out other harmful substances to our children?

Speaker 1 You know what's interesting, Chris? I, you know, as I'm reflecting on my childhood, and I think there's one thing that saved my life because I had extreme learning disability.

Speaker 1 I was never like diagnosed or anything like that, but I was in the bottom of my class. I had to cheat my way through on homeworks and tests just to pass class because it was so challenging for me to

Speaker 1 hear something and retain the information, comprehend it. No matter how much I read a book, the page, I couldn't remember what was on the page.
It was just challenging.

Speaker 1 Learning from sitting down and, you know, eight hours a day in a desk, being told complicated things and trying to

Speaker 1 remember them, it was daunting every day. I couldn't wait to be done with school.

Speaker 1 So my whole childhood, all the way through high school and college, I did not enjoy sitting in a classroom and being taught in that manner.

Speaker 1 I love to learn, but being taught in that manner didn't work for me. I was never diagnosed with anything, but

Speaker 1 I know I had dyslexia or something because I still struggle today reading. And I would just wait for the clock to end every day and

Speaker 1 eat bad food during lunch, during dinner. And my parents didn't know.
We didn't really know about nutrition back in the late 80s, early 90s like we do now, more of it, right?

Speaker 1 So I just got what I got. I ate what I ate, I got what I got.
And there was one thing that saved my life, I think, and that was

Speaker 1 playing a lot on the playground and playing sports a lot.

Speaker 1 Because I was moving my body so much after class, outdoors, running, sprinting, jumping, playing, I think that saved my life because otherwise if I didn't have that there's no way I'd be able to stay in shape and there's no way I'll be able to function with my brain because it was already struggling so much from consuming the food and having kind of a learning disability I guess.

Speaker 1 It was just daunting every day in class. And I don't think I would have made it if I didn't have the ability to play and be active as well.

Speaker 1 I think that mitigated a lot of the bad foods and candy and chips and 12 Dr. Peppers a day I was drinking or whatever I was doing.

Speaker 1 It was just like it mitigated some of that or my body was able to process some of that sugar somehow so I could function.

Speaker 1 And without that,

Speaker 1 I think it would have been hard. And I think kids nowadays are working out less and less.
They're less physically active.

Speaker 1 And it's going to really harm them in their adulthood. And you're seeing the link to it already based on your research.
So, I don't know how people do it today.

Speaker 1 Like, I feel like I was lucky enough that I was able to work out to kind of save my life.

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Speaker 2 You were lucky or

Speaker 2 you were self-medicating, I could almost say.

Speaker 1 You mean that the food was self-medication?

Speaker 2 No, the exercise was your self-medication. That was my medication.
That you noticed, I feel crappy. I want to go run and sprint and jump and other stuff.
And now I feel alive. Now I feel good.

Speaker 2 And that's why you didn't stop. Unfortunately, other kids get sucked into this pit.

Speaker 1 This was pre-social media also, so I wasn't, you know.

Speaker 2 Where it just drains you of all your energy, and now you're becoming overweight or obese and pre-diabetic.

Speaker 2 And now you don't have energy to go run. And you're getting more and more out of shape.
And it's harder for you to run because you're overweight or obese. And now other people are making fun of you.

Speaker 2 You're not getting any kind of positive reinforcement for anything athletic that you're doing. If anything, you're getting laughed at and made fun of.

Speaker 1 Which one makes you want to eat more and just

Speaker 2 makes you then say, well, why am I doing this? I may as well just give up.

Speaker 2 I'm not a jock. I'm not an athlete.

Speaker 2 That's for other people.

Speaker 2 I'll just focus on school or I'll just focus on whatever.

Speaker 2 And then a few years later, they're getting diagnosed with depression, anxiety, ADHD, whatever, and they're getting medicated. And now they're on that path.

Speaker 2 You know,

Speaker 2 I want to come back to this concept of obesity because one of the

Speaker 2 most strongly

Speaker 2 kind of recommended remedies to the obesity epidemic is acceptance.

Speaker 1 Acceptance of what?

Speaker 2 Acceptance of obesity. It's this movement called body positivity.

Speaker 1 I was just going to ask you this.

Speaker 2 Body positivity.

Speaker 1 I was just going to ask you this, because this is probably the most controversial thing that you'll talk about.

Speaker 2 Let's all be positive. Let's just stop fighting this uphill battle.
Let's accept that obesity is around.

Speaker 2 Some will go so far as to say it's genetic. Again, well-intentioned.
It's not genetic, people.

Speaker 2 We didn't have the rates of obesity 50 years ago that we do now. Anybody who tells you it's genetic is living in

Speaker 2 a scary

Speaker 1 idea. How scary is it for you as a psychiatrist and someone who treats mental health disorders on a daily basis?

Speaker 2 It is terrifying for me because not because I don't want people to be able to be overweight or obese and be happy and healthy and go through life and be accepted and not be made fun of.

Speaker 2 If somebody can be obese and otherwise healthy,

Speaker 2 and their brain is intact and they are functioning in life and they have friends and they have romantic relationships and everything that they want, and it's all going well,

Speaker 2 I have no problem with that person. It's free country, make your choices, we're all different, we've all got our strengths and weaknesses, leave that person alone.

Speaker 2 But the statistics we talked about earlier tell a very different story.

Speaker 2 It's not just their body shape that's at risk. It's not just societal stigma.
It's not just fat shaming that is the risk. Obesity is a symptom that your metabolism is disrupted.
Wow.

Speaker 2 and something is disrupting your metabolism and at the same time it is causing the symptom of obesity, the same time that it's causing your fat cells to just get larger and larger and larger and just unrelentingly, larger and larger and larger, meaning more and more weight gain.

Speaker 2 Those same processes are affecting the way your brain functions and putting you at risk for depression, anxiety, burnout, psychosis, bipolar symptoms.

Speaker 2 And those are the labels that will then ruin your life. And nobody will even think to connect those two dots.
Nobody will even think those two dots are even related,

Speaker 2 despite the abundance of research that we have. And again, many in the mental health field are terrified to talk about this.
Why?

Speaker 2 Because they know that the pills we're prescribing are causing obesity.

Speaker 2 We are contributing to this problem.

Speaker 2 So little Susie comes in, normal weight,

Speaker 2 with some mood instability and depression,

Speaker 2 and we start putting her on pills, and those pills make her gain 40 pounds, and then two years later, she develops her first psychotic episode,

Speaker 2 and we think

Speaker 2 The mental health field right now just says, well, she just had a bad illness. Our treatments, the obesity, none of that had anything to do with her

Speaker 2 new brain symptoms. It's painful to think about that.
It's been painful for me as a psychiatrist to think about that because you were trained a certain way.

Speaker 2 I was trained a certain way and I was prescribing those pills and I still prescribe those pills in some situations to patients.

Speaker 2 And to think that I may have contributed to people's chronic mental health conditions, it goes all the way from I feel guilt-ridden, I feel disgusted with myself, I feel nauseated.

Speaker 2 If I really let myself think about the patients

Speaker 2 and the level of suffering and pain they experienced, the decimation to their lives, the suicides, the people who are dead, when I really think about that, it's nauseating to think that our current treatments contributed to that or may have contributed to that.

Speaker 2 And what I'm saying is that the science is finally coming together. So, if there are any clinicians, psychiatrists, please do your research, Google it, PubMed, search it, do whatever you need to do.

Speaker 2 Most of your listeners are not psychiatrists and scientists.

Speaker 2 But what I'm here to tell everyone is that the science has come together. The science is coming together.
We have this outline which calls for

Speaker 2 a paradigm shift.

Speaker 2 A paradigm shift in how we think about mental health and how we treat it.

Speaker 2 And to put it in the simplest terms, we need to pair and integrate physical health and mental health. All your listeners are going to say, yeah, duh, of course.

Speaker 2 Well, then why are we prescribing pills that are causing physical health conditions?

Speaker 2 Why are we prescribing pills that are causing massive weight gain, diabetes, cardiovascular disease, premature mortality?

Speaker 2 On average, people with mental illness, anyone, take your pick, any mental illness, people diagnosed with a mental illness are dying early deaths.

Speaker 2 On average, men are losing 10 years of life. Women are losing seven years of life.

Speaker 2 And the primary cause of death is not suicide. The primary cause of death are heart attacks and strokes just 10 years earlier than everyone else.
And we are turning a blind eye to this.

Speaker 2 I'm less concerned, quite honestly, I'm less concerned about the end of life. If you die happy at 70 instead of 80, whatever.
I mean, to the people who love you, it is, it's a big deal.

Speaker 2 And I don't mean to minimize that or be dismissive of that. If you've got children, I mean, they care.
And yes, I want everybody to live long, healthy lives.

Speaker 2 But what I'm much more concerned about as a psychiatrist is what happened to that person for the 40 years prior to their death

Speaker 2 were they thriving or were they suffering yeah with unrelenting mental anguish were they suffering or were they just even just like you described when you were younger

Speaker 2 were they muddling by

Speaker 2 they're getting by they're doing okay

Speaker 2 But they constantly, chronically feel I'm less than everyone else. I'm not smart like everyone else.
I'm not motivated like everyone else.

Speaker 2 Maybe I just, you know,

Speaker 2 there's something wrong with me.

Speaker 2 Maybe I'm depressed or I'm anxious or I've got ADD or whatever. I've got a learning disorder.

Speaker 2 But there are millions and millions of people

Speaker 2 getting through life

Speaker 2 feeling like they're not good enough,

Speaker 2 feeling like they don't measure up. And what I'm here to say is we can do better.

Speaker 2 Those people should not have to go through life like that. Those people should be thriving and we should help them thrive.

Speaker 1 100%. And you mentioned something about kind of body acceptance.
It seems like when I was growing up in the 90s or whatever, it was about the media portrayed extreme skinny in women as beautiful.

Speaker 1 And then now it seems like a different extreme. It's like obesity is beautiful and the media portrays that and body acceptance.

Speaker 1 And I think there's a good intention behind it but as a psychiatrist what is the fear that you have when people are being celebrated for obesity versus thinking about a holistic health approach to life

Speaker 2 I really think it's because

Speaker 2 you know I think that movement again

Speaker 2 it's good intention accept yourself yeah that that they think that all of the bad outcomes of obesity are because of fat shaming and societal stigma.

Speaker 2 And if society would just come around and learn to be kinder and nicer to people with obesity,

Speaker 2 if everybody could play nice together, we would have a happier world. What I'm here to tell you is that's not true.

Speaker 2 Obesity is a symptom. It's like smoke coming out of your house and ignoring it and saying,

Speaker 2 let's have a smoke positivity home.

Speaker 2 Let's just celebrate the smoke coming out of our homes and ignore that there's a fire burning

Speaker 2 that may burn down our foundation, that may burn down our home. What I'm saying is let's not ignore it.
It is a symptom of metabolic dysfunction or dysregulation.

Speaker 2 We can understand it and we can do something about it.

Speaker 2 And again, we can help people thrive.

Speaker 2 A lot of people quickly then go to a zempic let's just prescribe ozempic for everybody put everybody on ozempic that'll solve the that'll save the day no that won't save the day

Speaker 2 there is still a root cause of the obesity

Speaker 2 and if we don't address it

Speaker 2 if we just ignore it and treat the symptom with ozempic and i'm not anti-ozempic

Speaker 2 If people need Ozempic to get a leg up on the lifestyle changes that they need to make.

Speaker 2 If that helps them get over their addictive cravings for the junk food that they should know they can't eat, then I'm all for it.

Speaker 2 But what I want to be clear is that our dietary advice for too long has been too simplistic. We tell people eat less and that'll solve the problem.

Speaker 2 So you can have Doritos still.

Speaker 2 But just eat fewer of them. Instead of eating the whole bag, eat half the bag.

Speaker 2 You can have your chocolate chip cookies, the ultra-processed kind, not the kind that grandma's making, the ultra-processed kind of chocolate.

Speaker 2 You can have those chocolate chip cookies, but just have two or three instead of ten.

Speaker 2 The problem is that people can white knuckle it for a few weeks or a few months.

Speaker 2 They can and this is the illusion is that people can white knuckle it They can white knuckle it and eat less of that crappy food.

Speaker 2 And sure enough, their weight will go down a little bit. And then everybody will say, see, see, it's a willpower thing.
But that person will slip back 95% of the time.

Speaker 2 That's what the statistics tell us. Wow.
95% of the time, when they lose weight in those ways,

Speaker 2 they will slip back. Why? Because their cravings will come back.

Speaker 2 Their cravings actually never left. They were just white-knuckling it.
And people can only white knuckle it for so long. So instead, what I would argue is that people need to be given better advice.

Speaker 2 And that advice means

Speaker 2 some foods are going to be healthier for you than other foods. You can't eat bags of Doritos every day and think that you are going to be healthy.

Speaker 2 You can't eat

Speaker 2 ultra-processed chocolate chip cookies every day as your treat and think that you are going to be healthy. And it's not because those foods are so delicious.

Speaker 2 So, some people will say that. They're just really delicious.
Well, grandmas made delicious food 100 years ago. We had Thanksgiving celebrations 100 years ago.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 It wasn't all ultra-processed.

Speaker 2 People weren't obese at nearly the rates that we have now. So it's not just delicious food versus bland salad.

Speaker 2 That's not the decision point. The decision point is the ultra-processing,

Speaker 2 you know, there's lots of debates about what exactly is happening, but there's a researcher at the NIH, Kevin Hall, who's done some research on ultra-processed foods.

Speaker 2 He basically takes people, locks them up in

Speaker 2 a

Speaker 2 metabolic ward, and feeds them, explicitly feeds them

Speaker 2 the exact same macros.

Speaker 2 So the same protein, fat, carbohydrate, calories, calories, everything, giving them like 6,000 calories, the option of 6,000 calories a day. 6,000, wow.

Speaker 2 With meals and snacks, and then just says, eat whatever you want. Try not to lose or gain weight.
Just eat whatever you want.

Speaker 2 He did a study that was published over four years ago now. And when he gave them unprocessed foods, same macros, same calorie content, all that.

Speaker 2 When he gave them unprocessed foods versus ultra-processed foods, on average the people ate 500 calories more of the ultra-processed versions, and they gained on average about two kilograms, which is about almost five pounds.

Speaker 2 Wow.

Speaker 2 In just two weeks.

Speaker 2 In just two weeks. When they were given the real whole food, on average, they lost about the five pounds.

Speaker 2 He just began replicating this study. He's not done with it, but he just published some interim results.
The interim results are even worse.

Speaker 2 When the subjects were given the ultra-processed, highly palatable foods, on average they ate a thousand calories extra a day.

Speaker 2 The interesting thing is that he asked the participants through the whole study, how do you like the food that we're giving you? How full are you? How hungry are you?

Speaker 2 How are you feeling?

Speaker 2 The ratings ratings on all of the different foods were similar. They were not different.

Speaker 2 So when people were being given real whole foods, it wasn't that they were complaining, saying, this food sucks.

Speaker 2 They weren't saying, I'm hungry all the time. They weren't saying any of that.
It's just

Speaker 2 they stopped eating

Speaker 2 because their metabolism was healthier

Speaker 2 and their brain told them, you're full. You're done.
You're good. Stop eating.

Speaker 2 When they were eating the ultra processed stuff there are very likely based on that research alone I think it's fair to say there are chemicals added

Speaker 2 that just make the foods hyper palatable or addictive yeah

Speaker 2 now you know when I say that most people are like well yeah we kind of get that that's probably true

Speaker 2 If I'm selling food, if I'm a food company CEO, what's my goal? Sell the most food possible.

Speaker 2 Get people to eat the the whole bag so that they have to go back to the grocery store tomorrow and get another bag.

Speaker 2 And then the next day, get another bag. And then the next day, get another bag.
Just keep

Speaker 2 applying it. That's good for my profit margin.
That CEO doesn't really care about your health.

Speaker 2 They certainly don't care about your brain health or your child's brain health. And right now, we're not even holding them responsible or accountable for

Speaker 2 what their chemicals might be doing to our children's brains.

Speaker 2 And when your child ends up with a severe chronic mental health condition, you know, at a minimum, we call it failure to launch. Millions of those people out there.

Speaker 2 All these men more than women, unfortunately. All these guys are sitting in their parents' basements playing video games, failing to launch.

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Speaker 2 That's the minimum. The maximum is your kid is going to psychiatrists, trying medication after medication, going to therapists, in and out of hospitals, maybe in and out of jail or prison.
Right.

Speaker 2 Maybe in and out of ERs with overdoses.

Speaker 2 And the parents are terrified that they are going to lose their children.

Speaker 1 And you think the main cause of all these things is linked to nutrition and your ability to move your body?

Speaker 2 I think it's linked, so I would go broader, I would say it's linked to metabolism, but yes, there's no doubt

Speaker 2 nutrition, movement, sleep. are huge.
Yes. And so, you know, screens come into it.
Everybody's glued to their phone. And what do screens do? Well, one, they prevent you from moving.
Yep.

Speaker 2 You're not running outside in the sunshine when you're on a screen. Exactly.

Speaker 2 And screens interfere with sleep. Yeah, exactly.
So it's kind of a screens are a double whammy. So is screen addiction part of the problem? A hundred percent.

Speaker 2 And then, sure, the cyberbullying and everything that's going on when you're in that screen, sure, yeah, that doesn't help.

Speaker 2 But I think it really is more physiological. I think it, the cyberbullying, the trauma, the stress, all of that is playing a role on our biology.
Sure.

Speaker 2 That when you are traumatized, when you are stressed,

Speaker 2 it is taking a toll on your body. Most people get that.

Speaker 2 And what I'm saying is if you dig deep,

Speaker 2 It's actually taking a toll on your metabolic health. Yeah.
It's making your blood glucose go up from stress stress hormones and cortisol. It's making your heart rate go up.

Speaker 2 It's increasing your blood pressure. And if it's occurring over long periods of time, I mean, those are metabolic biomarkers.

Speaker 1 Chronic stress. Yes.
Chronic stress is linked to trauma, unresolved trauma, pressures, all these different things as well. Yes.
So when we can learn to

Speaker 1 start the healing journey of past traumas, psychologically, emotionally, physical, sexual traumas, if we can start the healing journey of that

Speaker 1 and do these other things you're talking about from the physical side, from sleep, from minimizing screens, from nutrition, movement, all these different things,

Speaker 1 it sounds like you'll be able to set yourself up for more mental peace and therefore greater success as a human being.

Speaker 2 A hundred percent. Like what you just laid out, and I know like you're like a shining example of all of this.

Speaker 2 So you're like everyone's role model for all of this, But yes.

Speaker 2 And what I'm saying is that you don't have a chemical imbalance that you need to medicate. Yes.

Speaker 2 And you don't necessarily need to be in therapy for the rest of your life every week.

Speaker 2 You're not a defective human being.

Speaker 2 That you may have had vulnerabilities. You may have had a less than optimal brain function.
And the strategies that you've used allowed you to thrive. Again,

Speaker 2 does anybody get to perfection? No, we're all human.

Speaker 2 We've all got our strengths, we've all got our weaknesses. That's just the way it is, and that's never going to change.

Speaker 2 But you can still have vulnerabilities. You can still struggle with reading, for example, like you mentioned a little bit ago.
You can still struggle with reading and be quite successful.

Speaker 1 It doesn't have to affect my self-worth anymore. No.
It doesn't have to affect my ability to

Speaker 1 feel good about myself. It's okay.

Speaker 2 And especially nowadays, and with learning and with education and all of the technology that we do have, if reading's not your thing, you can acquire information or learn in other ways. 100%.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 that's the thing. So some of it is just recognizing what are people's strengths, what are their weaknesses, what are their vulnerabilities.

Speaker 2 If you're a little overweight, okay, maybe you're not going to be the super thin athlete. That's That's okay.
You don't need to be. You don't need to be that in order to thrive.

Speaker 2 Other people may not be good with reading. Other people may not, may have trouble sitting still for long periods of time.
Other people, you know, whatever. I mean, it's fine.

Speaker 2 We can help people thrive. It's really strange because

Speaker 2 there are people who want to like deny all of mental health conditions or brain like there's no such a thing as mental illness. It's all made up.
And I'm like, I'm not definitely not in that camp.

Speaker 2 So I am in the camp that some people can have pretty significant mental health conditions, mental disorders is what I would call them, mental illnesses, whatever term people want to use, where their brains are not functioning properly, where they can't pay attention, where they're having psychotic symptoms, where they're having panic attacks for no reason, where their brain is just ruminating on past trauma or past painful events.

Speaker 2 And even though they say to themselves, stop it, stop doing that, stop thinking about it, just go on with life. Like, if you could just forget about that, everything would be fine.

Speaker 2 And their brain won't let them forget. Their brain just keeps bringing it back up.
I do think that people can have conditions where

Speaker 2 their brains aren't functioning optimally. And what I'm here to say is, yes, medications, we can still use them.

Speaker 2 If they can help people achieve remission and recovery and thrive in life, I'm all for it.

Speaker 1 But not stay on it forever.

Speaker 2 Far too many people are not getting any of those three things. They are not getting remission.
They are not getting recovery. They are not thriving.

Speaker 2 They are being medicated.

Speaker 2 They're being told you've got a severe, a chronic mental health condition. We will manage it the best we can.

Speaker 2 And I want those people to hear loud and clear there is a new way.

Speaker 1 That's beautiful. That's beautiful.
I've got a couple final questions for you because I think

Speaker 1 this has been a really powerful starter. We'll have to have you back on and talk more extensively.
But if people want more from Dr.

Speaker 1 Chris Palmer, leave a comment below if you're on YouTube or message us and let us know if you want to hear more, what question you really want answered.

Speaker 1 But I think this is a great start for people because we could talk for hours right now, but I think this is a lot for people to digest and to reflect on because so many people have different things that they've been struggling with there's a couple final questions I want to ask you

Speaker 1 there's a lot it seems like lately I've heard more people say they've been diagnosed with ADHD

Speaker 1 as a psychiatrist what is the the root cause of ADHD and also what is the best way to start healing or reversing ADHD?

Speaker 2 I think, you know, ADHD

Speaker 2 in its classic form is considered a neurodevelopmental disorder, meaning you're either born that way or it's something that's happening to you early in life.

Speaker 2 It can,

Speaker 2 there are biological, psychological, and social causes of it.

Speaker 2 So the biology can include everything we've talked about.

Speaker 2 Diet, exercise. And those things are way off base and

Speaker 2 skyrocketing in our population. And I think that is a big part of the reason why we have skyrocketing rates of ADHD.

Speaker 1 Again, if your parents are-with the lack of the things we talked about,

Speaker 2 nutrition, sleep, exercise, that

Speaker 2 if children are being fed from birth

Speaker 2 highly processed, ultra-processed baby food formula with added sugars and other things.

Speaker 2 You know, right now, the World Health Organization and the American guidelines, Dietary Guidelines for Americans, say that children under two should have zero foods with added sugar. Wow, zero.

Speaker 2 Gerber, if you look at the ingredient list of Gerber baby foods,

Speaker 2 a lot of them have sugar. It's not all sugar, but a lot of them have added sugar.
We are not following these common sense guidelines. And so we're setting these young brains up for not thriving.

Speaker 2 And again, this is not impossible. Japan does a very different job.
The rates of obesity and overweight in Japanese children are less than 5%.

Speaker 2 What is it in America? 40%.

Speaker 2 Wow.

Speaker 2 Japan knows something we don't. And what they know is that they feed their kids broccoli and seaweed and

Speaker 2 you know

Speaker 2 fish and other things that they're eating them real they're giving them real food

Speaker 2 and so that's part of it some of the other biology could be infections if you get an infection early in life you're much more likely to have a whole range of neuropsychiatric disorders including ADHD

Speaker 2 but then psychological and social factors play a role trauma stress childhood adversity poverty those things, yes, they do play a role.

Speaker 2 So for some kids, you're going to look at some kids who get diagnosed with ADHD, and if they're in a crappy, abusive household, yelling, screaming, shootings on the street, but yelling, screaming in the household,

Speaker 2 it's pretty clear why that kid is having some mental health condition. Sure.

Speaker 2 And I don't care what it is. It's probably more than just ADHD.
It might be PTSD, anxiety, depression, whatever, a lot of it. I mean, that's obvious.

Speaker 2 So I'm not here to take away from those obvious cases.

Speaker 2 Those situations have not increased in our society. We've had a tripling in ADHD diagnoses since 2010.

Speaker 2 Those poverty-stricken, abusive households have not tripled.

Speaker 1 So what is the root then of that?

Speaker 2 The root is metabolic dysfunction, which means diet, exercise, lifestyle, other things.

Speaker 1 Have you seen people who have come in to your clinic or other psychiatrists that you know are working with patients that come in and are diagnosed with ADHD that have gone on this

Speaker 1 intervention, not using medication, but intervention of I'm going to prescribe you eight hours of sleep, whole food diet, movement, moving your body. And have you seen them been able to reverse ADHD?

Speaker 2 100%. Really? So it's a reversible thing.
It is.

Speaker 2 So that should not be controversial. The psychiatry field has long said a lot of people will outgrow ADHD.
Wow. Other research shows, like I just attended a summit on ADHD with world-renowned experts.

Speaker 2 Cutting-edge research. The ADHD brain just appears to be five years behind other brains.

Speaker 2 But that's big when you're in school. Yeah.
If you're five years behind the other kids.

Speaker 1 I might have been like ten years behind.

Speaker 2 Sorry, I was like struggling. You're five years behind the other kids? That's huge.
And it's really huge for the teachers. So the teachers see you as a problem.
Yes.

Speaker 2 They see you as five years immature all the way through.

Speaker 1 But adults are getting it now.

Speaker 2 But well, so that's that is the thing, is that what I think is happening is that as we have skyrocketing rates of metabolic disorders in humans and adults. 70% of adults are overweight or obese.

Speaker 2 It impacts their brain function at the same time. We know this.
This is not speculative. We have neuroimaging studies documenting this.
We have cognitive tests documenting this.

Speaker 2 Random, like controlled trials, like this is

Speaker 2 not,

Speaker 2 this is really not

Speaker 2 kind of up for debate, if you will. If you believe in science, if you believe in science, if you believe in research, this is not controversial.

Speaker 2 Obesity affects the function of the brain. I would argue it goes the other way, that obesity may be a reflection of brain dysfunction.

Speaker 2 That the appetite centers and our feeding behavior centers are in the brain. And when those are dysregulated, that makes people eat more than they should.

Speaker 2 But that dysregulation doesn't stop at just those two little areas.

Speaker 2 It goes to the rest of the brain and it's all connected yeah it's all connected it's all connected and so at the same time that you have dysregulation in your appetite signaling

Speaker 2 you have dysregulation in paying attention of course concentrating motivating yourself sitting still

Speaker 2 and

Speaker 2 so

Speaker 2 adults will, I think, rightfully go to psychiatrists saying there's something wrong with me. A lot of times they probably struggled with metabolic health since they were kids.

Speaker 2 So it's not, they're not making it up. Like, yeah, I was eating Captain Crunch and Froot Loops and drinking Kool-Aid and, you know,

Speaker 2 Dr. Pepper's and all that stuff when I was a kid.
And yeah, now in hindsight, I realized, yeah, I did struggle in school and nobody knew it.

Speaker 2 And the psychiatrists today are saying, aha,

Speaker 2 we've diagnosed ADHD that just got missed.

Speaker 2 And what I'm saying is, no, it's bigger than that. And whether the person had it since childhood, I think some adults are developing it now, newer.

Speaker 2 We need to put it together. And again, the reason we need to put it together is because we are prescribing more psychiatric pills than ever.
We are delivering more psychotherapy than ever.

Speaker 2 More people are getting psychotherapy than ever before.

Speaker 2 We are

Speaker 2 distributing treatments. We are scaling treatments.

Speaker 2 And the rates are skyrocketing.

Speaker 2 It's a losing battle.

Speaker 2 The answer is not more pills.

Speaker 2 The answer is not even better pills.

Speaker 2 The answer is let's understand the biology of what is happening to the human brain and the human body and let's address it. And at the end of the day, it's not rocket science solutions.

Speaker 2 It's diet, nutrition, exercise, movement, sleep, refraining from harmful substance use, and the social stuff, the relationships, the connection, the purpose in life. You've got to have a purpose.

Speaker 2 You need to have a passion. Everybody needs that.

Speaker 2 You put those things together. I'm not even going to keep going on.
Those are are the lifestyle medicine buckets. You put those together and you've got a winning package

Speaker 2 for most people.

Speaker 1 I think I want to finish with this one final question

Speaker 1 because I want you to come back on and we can talk more. And I don't want to, I want to, I want to keep it at this for a great starter for people.

Speaker 1 And then I want us to come back on in the future and do more. But this is a question.
I don't know why this came up for me during this conversation. I'm not an expert in this.

Speaker 1 You know,

Speaker 1 I don't know if it's good or bad, but I know a lot of women in the world take the pill. I don't know if you have any research on this or if this is something that psychiatrists study.

Speaker 1 But how much does the pill affect women's mental health?

Speaker 2 It definitely affects women's mental health.

Speaker 1 Does it improve it? Does it hurt it? Because it seems like a lot of women are on the pill. And whatever your preference is, it doesn't matter to me if that's what you're doing.

Speaker 1 But it doesn't seem to be natural to be blocking hormones that are supposed to be within a human being on a monthly cycle. For me, it just doesn't seem natural.

Speaker 1 Even though it's been conditioned that this is a good thing or a lot of people can take it and it's going to help prevent a lot of things, I get that.

Speaker 1 But how much is the pill hurting women more than they actually know?

Speaker 2 I think that, yeah, so we have, we do have good research studies on this.

Speaker 2 The real answer is it's complicated. So first and foremost, I want to say, women have a right to contraception, to effective contraception.

Speaker 1 100%.

Speaker 2 We don't want lots of unwanted pregnancies.

Speaker 1 100%.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I'm not saying that. Let's start there.

Speaker 2 So, everything else I'm going to say that follows, I'm not at all in favor of taking contraception away from women or just trying to have them barefoot and pregnant in kitchen. 100%.

Speaker 2 None of that. 100%.

Speaker 1 But

Speaker 1 there's a price you pay for everything.

Speaker 2 There is. And so there are

Speaker 2 some women, probably a lower percentage than than half, who will benefit from birth control pills.

Speaker 1 So they're how many percentage?

Speaker 2 It's hard to say. So it really is kind of I want to say anecdotal.
It's more than anecdotal because like OBGYNs and

Speaker 2 reproductive psychiatrists will actually use birth control for women who have really erratic periods or other things.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 some women can benefit tremendously from it. The bad news is we do have large population studies.

Speaker 2 If you are a younger woman, less than 20, on birth control, the chances that you might attempt suicide,

Speaker 2 three times higher. Come on.
If you're on birth control than if you're not on birth control. Really?

Speaker 2 Three times higher.

Speaker 2 Now, there are confounding variables in that, because if you're on birth control it means that you're probably dating and maybe some of those suicide attempts are because you know the love of your life just broke your heart and dumped you or whatever.

Speaker 1 I mean but people go through breakups all the time.

Speaker 2 Yeah and people who aren't dating are being fat shamed and lonely and

Speaker 2 feeling ugly and so you can you can play those you can play those lots of different ways. Three times the suicide rate is massive.

Speaker 1 It's huge of women under 20 who are taking birth control control.

Speaker 2 Birth control. Versus women who are not taking birth control.

Speaker 1 What does birth control do to the brain of a woman when they're on it every single day?

Speaker 2 So the one thing, so the reality is estrogen and progesterone

Speaker 2 have massive effects on the brain and body. Most people think of them as reproductive hormones and they, you know, play a role in the ovaries and the way the ovaries function.
And yes, they do.

Speaker 2 And that's why women are taking them for reproductive control.

Speaker 1 But they can't spot one area of the body.

Speaker 2 But guess what?

Speaker 2 There are estrogen and progesterone receptors located throughout the human brain. 100%.

Speaker 2 And that estrogen, those estrogens and progesterones are affecting the function

Speaker 2 of your brain. Numerous areas, including mood regulation.
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Speaker 2 So this is one of the reasons, so we know that estrogen, for example, impacts brain function. I mean the strongest evidence is later in life.
So when women go through menopause,

Speaker 2 depending on whether you go through menopause early or late, that will impact your risk for Alzheimer's disease, for example. Because estrogen is playing a direct role in brain metabolism.

Speaker 2 So it comes back to what I'm talking talking about overall, brain metabolism. It's a hormone.
It's a well-known hormone. Everybody knows it.

Speaker 2 So again, this kind of thinking about mental disorders as metabolic disorders is about putting all of the pieces of the puzzle together. It's not about replacing them.
But so women will know this.

Speaker 2 Like when I talk about this with women, they're like, you're a man saying this.

Speaker 2 Either they're angry at me for how dare you even talk about it. You're a man.
You don't have any rights.

Speaker 2 Or thank God a man finally gets it and is speaking the truth because we women have been trying to shout this from the rooftops and everybody dismisses us and we do have brain symptoms and it's not our fault and we shouldn't be ashamed of it and we shouldn't be shunned for it.

Speaker 2 And people shouldn't be telling us we're hormonal, like

Speaker 2 we're defective because we have hormones. We can use this knowledge, we can use this science to come up with better strategies to be more patient, compassionate with people.

Speaker 2 Again, people are still going to go through menopause. Women are going to go through menopause, like it or not.

Speaker 2 And you're going to have some decisions to make about do you want to take hormones? Do you not want to take hormones? Are they indicated?

Speaker 2 That transition is going to affect your brain, whether you like it or not. So I'm not here to say that we can make everything perfect.

Speaker 2 and everybody can live perfect lives and not have any struggles and not have any adversity at all. I'm not here to say that.
But what I am here to say is that if you understand,

Speaker 2 you can come up with treatment solutions.

Speaker 2 You can come up with accommodations, if you will, that

Speaker 2 if we know that this period is happening, like pregnancy and then postpartum period. That's something we can all anticipate.

Speaker 2 And we can all rally to support that woman to get through the postpartum period. If she's vulnerable to mental health episodes in the postpartum period, we can all rally to support her.

Speaker 2 And the easiest thing we can do is to make sure she's not sleep deprived. Yes.

Speaker 2 We can like make sure that if she's breastfeeding, hey, honey, could you pump maybe one or two bottles so that somebody else can get up in the middle of the night

Speaker 2 and feed the baby so that you're not doing it every two hours because you need some sleep. 100%.

Speaker 2 And I mean, there's so many clear common sense things. Again, that's not rocket science.
It doesn't cost too much money.

Speaker 2 It just needs some support of husband, boyfriend, family, whatever to come to the rescue and help her out, knowing that you're vulnerable right now. Sure, sure.
Because of hormones and other things.

Speaker 1 I guess the thing I'm taking away from this, I want,

Speaker 1 you know, again, I'm not an expert in this, but, and we're not women. So I can't speak into the experience of a woman.

Speaker 1 But what I'm hearing you say, the research and the data and the science is saying that if a woman is on birth control, it is three three times more likely they will have suicide thoughts or suicidal.

Speaker 1 Is that what you said? Suicidality, yeah.

Speaker 1 And so I just want people to be aware of that. And maybe there's a bigger benefit to you, and maybe there's maybe you can manage that in other ways where it doesn't affect you.

Speaker 1 But it sounds like there's a massive risk to it. And I just want women to be aware of what they're taking on if they choose that option.

Speaker 2 So 100% everything you just said, and

Speaker 2 maybe even more concretely, or just to add to that,

Speaker 2 to say, if you are a woman and you've chosen to go on birth control, and now all of a sudden,

Speaker 2 a few months later or a year later, you're having mental health struggles,

Speaker 2 anxiety, depression, suicidality, anything, mood instability. Yes.
Talk to your healthcare practitioner about could this birth control pill be playing a role in my new onset mental health condition?

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 could I maybe go off of this and let's see?

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 1 yeah, don't take more pills for the symptoms of the pill. You know what I mean?

Speaker 2 It's like. Well, that's the challenge is that

Speaker 2 let's take the worst case scenario.

Speaker 1 But here's something else to get into.

Speaker 2 Exactly. Let's take the worst case scenario.
That's not good. A birth control pill is going to adversely affect a woman's mental health.
Yes. She is 18 years old.

Speaker 2 We'll make her an adult so we don't piss anyone off. She's 18 years old.
She decides to go on birth control. She had never had mental health symptoms before.

Speaker 2 And now at 18 and a half or 19, all of a sudden she starts having new onset anxiety or depression. She goes to her doctor to talk about this.
Yes.

Speaker 2 Because she's talked to her friends and all her friends say, oh, you've got to go and get on some Prozac or Zola. Yeah, yeah.
It really helps.

Speaker 1 Helps you sleep. Helps you do weird.

Speaker 2 So now she goes to the doctor, and now the doctor prescribes her Zoloft

Speaker 2 on top of the birth control pill. The Zoloft maybe kind of sort of works.

Speaker 2 But then three months later, now her sleep is really disrupted. Or she gains weight.
Because of the Zoloft.

Speaker 2 Or she starts gaining weight.

Speaker 2 But now her sleep is disrupted. And so what does the doctor do? Well, let's put you on a sleeping pill now.
Oh, my gosh. Let's put you on a sleeping pill so we can you sleep.

Speaker 2 And now she's on three pills,

Speaker 2 all because

Speaker 2 somebody didn't recognize what the root cause was, which was a bad reaction to a medication. Yes, I cannot tell you how many people I've seen that this has happened.
Really?

Speaker 2 My estimation is millions and millions of people are in that situation where they, again, they go on a pill for a good reason. yeah she you know she's 18 she's dating somebody

Speaker 2 she wants to be responsible she wants to make sure she's not going to get pregnant and that's a risk our society would say that you're she's being responsible that's great the boyfriend wants her to be on the pill everybody wants her to be on the pill everybody

Speaker 2 so she's on the pill And now it starts having adverse effects. Nobody even considers that possibility.
And now she's going down this road where she's getting more and more meds,

Speaker 2 developing more and more health conditions. Again, she started off a happy, healthy, thriving woman.

Speaker 2 In love. In a relationship.
In love.

Speaker 2 Now she's got depression, anxiety, whatever. She's got insomnia because of this side effect.
Maybe she's starting to gain some weight.

Speaker 1 Now the boyfriend dumps her.

Speaker 2 And now what?

Speaker 1 Now there's more medication to deal with the trauma.

Speaker 2 Well, yeah no that if the boyfriend does dump her then she gets even more depressed because of grief and so what do we do we increase the dose of your zoloft or we start a new medicine we have to add a medicine we need to do something to treat that and unfortunately then at that point

Speaker 1 I've seen lives ruined from that point on because it's some people might say well if I'm 18 and if I'm not on the pill and if I'm having sex because that's my choice and I want to and I want to have connection or pleasure.

Speaker 1 And if we get pregnant, well, then my life is over because I'm 18 and I haven't lived my life and I have a child now at 18.

Speaker 1 And so someone might say, well, I don't want my life to be over because I have a child too early or what I think is too early based on society standards.

Speaker 2 Well, and I am going to endorse that. So I am all for responsible

Speaker 2 family planning. And that means planning when you are going to have a baby.
I mean, 50%,

Speaker 2 for those of you who don't know, 50% of pregnancies in the United States are unplanned.

Speaker 2 More often than not with married couples, but they are unplanned.

Speaker 1 What's the other solution then to not getting pregnant besides being on the pill?

Speaker 2 So there are IUDs, a man can wear a condom. I mean, there are all sorts of other contraceptive methods that people can use.

Speaker 2 And I'm not here to say there's a one-size-fits-all contraceptive method for everyone, But what I'm here to say is that,

Speaker 2 as you pointed out, understand that there are risks with contraception.

Speaker 2 That if you're taking a pill that is impacting your hormones, that impact not just the function of your ovaries, but also impact the function of your brain. So that's unequivocal.

Speaker 2 Like, I'm not making this up. Like, that's science.
Like, let that sink in.

Speaker 2 This pill that I'm taking is not just affecting my ovaries, it's affecting my brain. Just let that sink in and then just be mindful of it.

Speaker 2 And if something's happening with your brain function over the next year or two, like you're developing new onset psychiatric symptoms,

Speaker 2 be open to the possibility that

Speaker 2 could it be that

Speaker 2 the contraceptive pill that I'm taking. Yeah.
And be open to at least having that conversation with your healthcare provider, really pushing them.

Speaker 2 Don't let them dismiss this. This is a real thing.
This pill is affecting my brain, and now all of a sudden, I'm having new onset psychiatric symptoms.

Speaker 2 You say that, and most healthcare professionals will, if you put it together like that for them, most healthcare professionals will say, Yeah, you're right,

Speaker 2 let's try a different pill or let's stop the pill. Maybe we could try an IUD or maybe you and your boyfriend could find some other.

Speaker 2 Or whatever. Maybe you, yeah, we can find a new solution.

Speaker 2 And I really would strongly push that the new solution should not be let's add an antidepressant to the mix.

Speaker 1 I just don't think there's any benefit to that.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 I just see it go wrong too often. Oh, man.

Speaker 1 There's a lot we uncovered here today.

Speaker 1 There's three things I want people to do.

Speaker 1 If you're watching on YouTube, I want you to leave a comment of the biggest aha moment or takeaway that you heard or watched during this conversation, because there's a lot of information here.

Speaker 1 But again, you've got three decades of being a clinical practitioner but also a researcher a teacher all these different things and you study it from the top experts in the world so you're seeing the data and you're seeing real patients in real time and you've seen the rise of these things these mental health disorders or illnesses over the last three decades at astronomical rates and there is a direct link to physical and mental health.

Speaker 1 There's a direct link to nutrition, the way you move, for the lack of movement, to your mental health as well.

Speaker 1 So, I want people to leave a comment on the YouTube of their biggest takeaway, aha moment, etc.

Speaker 1 Second thing I want people to do, if you're listening or watching, I want you to share this with one friend who maybe has been struggling.

Speaker 1 Maybe they don't have some extreme bipolar disorder or something, but maybe they've just been mentally going through a hard time, whether it's overwhelm, anxiety, stress, whatever it might be, send them this link and ask them their their biggest takeaway as well i think a great way to be a friend to someone is to pass them on good information and good and good content that could hopefully open their minds to what's possible for their personal growth as well so send this to one friend as well third thing i want people to do is i want them to get your book because you've got a book that dives in deep on all these different things called brain energy a revolutionary breakthrough in understanding mental health and improving treatment for anxiety depression ocd ptsd and more.

Speaker 1 And again, a lot of people are feeling

Speaker 1 these symptoms or these conditions these days, or they have early stage symptoms of these things.

Speaker 1 And I want people to get the information and have the solution to reversing these things, because you're not hopeless. It's not hopeless.
You give a lot of people the tools.

Speaker 1 on how to reverse a lot of these things. And yes, like you've said, there are extreme cases that may need extreme medical interventions.

Speaker 1 And we're not talking about that. We're talking about the other 90, 95% of people

Speaker 1 who are developing anxiety, overwhelm, stress, PTSD, ADHD, who are having these things that are starting to take over their life.

Speaker 1 But sounds to me like a lot of them are reversible or manageable to not be consuming one's life. So I want people to get your book.
I want them to follow you.

Speaker 1 Brainenergy.com, ChrisPalmerMD.com, also Chris PalmerMD on X and Instagram, and

Speaker 1 really send people this conversation in your life, your friends, your family members, and say, hey, I just was thinking about you and wanted to see if there's anything that you took away from this conversation.

Speaker 1 I think that's the best way people can support their friends and family as well. Is there anything else we can do to be of service to you, Chris?

Speaker 2 No, I mean, this is really helpful. I want to thank you so much for, I mean, serving me is serving people who are struggling with their mental health.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 Because there are millions of them. Yes.
So if we can help those people, I love the idea of sending this episode to a friend or family member. And then I would actually just add, follow up with them.

Speaker 2 Yes. Say, how are you doing? And when they, after they give you their polite answer, I'm fine.
How are you really doing? I'm fine. How are you really doing? Yeah.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 I actually sent this to you because I really sometimes sometimes worry about you or I've noticed this, whatever concern you had about them that made you send this to them.

Speaker 2 And ultimately, what that's about is I want you to just be a really good friend and resource to people.

Speaker 2 Even if you yourself are struggling with your own mental health, you can be a rock for someone else. 100%.
Just let them know. Like, I'm here for you.
Yes. I've got your back.

Speaker 2 We can get through this together.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 that,

Speaker 2 in extreme cases, that can save a life.

Speaker 1 Yes, 100%. And I want to finish with this, Chris, because I want to acknowledge you for, again, three decades of research.
And I love this in your book. You dedicate your book to your mother.

Speaker 1 I'm going to read it for people. I think it's beautiful.
To my mother, my futile attempts to save you from the ravages of mental illness lit a fire in me that burns to this day.

Speaker 1 I'm sorry that I didn't figure this out in time to help you. May you rest in peace.
And I just think that's a beautiful mission and purpose that you are living.

Speaker 1 Even though your mother, you weren't able to be a stand for her, but to be able to,

Speaker 1 in her memory, be of service to other people who have family members and friends who are struggling with extreme mental health disorders and feel like there's no hope.

Speaker 1 And so I really acknowledge you for being a stand for research, being a stand for science, to give people tools.

Speaker 1 and putting yourself out there to hopefully save a lot more lives that are struggling and feel like there's no hope. So I'm really, really grateful for you, Chris, for being here today.
Thank you.

Speaker 2 Thank you, Lewis, for having me.

Speaker 1 Appreciate it. I have a brand new book called Make Money Easy.

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Speaker 1 I really think this is going to help you transform your relationship with money this moment moving forward. We have some big guests and content coming up.

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Speaker 1 I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness.

Speaker 1 Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links.

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Speaker 1 And I wanna remind you: if no one has told you lately that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something

Speaker 1 great.

Speaker 5 There's a reason pork is the world's favorite meat. Pork brings the flavor.

Speaker 6 Don't believe me?

Speaker 5 Where would breakfast be without sizzly crispy bacon? Why have pizza without the subtle spice of a pepperoni? Can you even say you barbecued without making ribs?

Speaker 6 If pork is on the menu, now you're cooking with flavor.

Speaker 5 So sear chops, shred shoulder, bake tenderloin, and discover all the incredible flavors in every bite of pork.

Speaker 2 What are you waiting for?

Speaker 5 Taste what pork can do. This message was brought to you by America's Pig Farmers.

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